The Wrong Mix

Honestly why do so many -isms need the vehicle of socialism?i am forced to think that owing to the current status of political scenario and the existing peoples complexion of poverty and need which may obstruct the simple delivery of basic necessities. owing to the reigning -ism and its tussle with the -isms of the oppositional slant.then emerge the groups who are ready to give help to the people any -ism they maybe colours their social theme because these people are active socially and can actually reach the people. here i would like to mention another -ism which i feel has an erratic influence.I would not have got it from history textbooks.At least not with the easy read and pleasure of registering through an interesting article.Even if the textbooks carried a commentary on the subject.Am referring to the article ‘’Trouble in .....’’in Dawn Sun 8 Jun 08.So Bohemian culture did change ,alas.Got to see the new strains that developed, under the magnifying analysis of nfp.But no one can match the classic bohemian spirit et al.You wrote, ‘’those creative, eccentric and idealistic people who were ready to hit the depths of economic depravity and face establishmentarian and general social scorn for wwhat they believed in”. The first bohemians were the true bohemians,I say!!
Wealth has a habit since time immemorial, to buy talent to please itself. In so doing the talented has to conform to the demands and conditions provided by the wealthy, to work in.Not all artistes can conform to this rigidity and there are exceptions.Then comes the question of the posthumous phenomenon.when the rejected artist, thrown out, or even ‘’offed with his head’’, by the offended provider, after his death achieves a resounding and scintillating fame that livens up the galleries and museums till eternity.This fact,has rubbed off on the collective conscious of the peoples, nations and families of both the volatile artistes and their wealthy employers who sacked and rejected them at whim;and themselves are lying forgotten in ignominy, while the art/ists/istes achieve everlasting fame-immortalized.All this resulting in your term;’’clever economics’’.Now the art/ist/iste is indulged by those who patronise his work.The one who indulges gets two benefits i think.One, the creative genius’ work and the common man’s adoration for being such a generous supporter of the cause of art and their ideal artist/iste.If the artist/iste is a firebrand, gregarious personality the bigger the cycle of popularity.As the hypocritical attitudes of the members of the society are lashed out against; the poor folk can identify with the oppressed who are the victims of such hypocrites, and they cannot feel alone.
Now your question”,{...}” ‘’Was it actually capitalism getting hold of it to knock it out of its poverty embracing idealism?’’ my answer is that obviously, definitely seems to be the case.
Yes,where are these eccentric, creative people now?they are all over the world.Today’ s world accepts their entity more.They are wanted, they are followed and they are better understood.They need not belong to a small piece of land which may be the poor intellectual’ s utopia, the place where bohemians live.They may be scattered and the whole world belongs to them.

tahmed is a sorry excuse for a human being, every post of his proves that, just as his "claims" regarding me. You can't show a single lie or instance of hypocrisy in any ONE of my posts, I challenge you to do that , but the dimwitted, shallow pervert that you are, you'll never be able to do it.

tahmed writes "i have already explained to you why you are a liar and a hypocrite..."

Your "explanation" was I said Zinn knows me and later said I know Zinn so I am a liar! And because I was gracious enough to tell you that I taught at a university that received some funding from US Aid for its building projects and not for paying teacher's salaries and I tell the students facts about US BS around the globe, that makes me a hypocrite. You must be a fool to think you've proven your case, idiot...

tahmed writes "if anyone else in chowk has any interest in why i consider you to be a liar and a hypocrite, i would be glad to explain. but i am not going to waste time with you"

Another shallow excuse from a spineless pervert proving to us how immoral and dimwitted he is in his baseless namecalling...need i say more?

LEADENWINTER TU NAY BOHAT GAAAND MARAI HAI ISI OR MI SAY , JA BHAI ABB SUKKUR JAIL KO APNI GAAND DAI

masadi: and writing bakwas in bold does not make it non-bakwas.

masadi: i have already explained to you why you are a liar and a hypocrite. So, being a hypocrite, you keep acting as if i am just calling you names without any reason the way you do.

if anyone else in chowk has any interest in why i consider you to be a liar and a hypocrite, i would be glad to explain. but i am not going to waste time with you.

..(and you tahmed have a stellar record of doing just that).... i.e. proving yourself to be a shallow pervert (on chowk)

tahmed writes "#118 dont hide behind "chowk readers", you miserable hypocrite."

I'm not hiding anywhere you a-hole, when you make claims and accusitions you better substantiate them otherwise you prove yourself to be a shallow pervert every time (and you have a stellar record of doing just that)....

Re: # 117
Zeemax...
"Filtering is good. I hope Chowkstaff has finally found a system where it can be properly done to prevent this from turning into a hate-speech site. "

Ans: Hate speech against whom?
Arjun never shies away from reliable data, reason and statistics. I have never read any of his posts using filthy language.He resorts to personal vilification, unless and until somebody starts it...

Re: # 116
Ahmed...
Hilsa...
This is similar to carp in look. The size goes upto 2 feet (at most 2.5 feet). During rains, the schools of Hilsa swims upstream to the rivers in Ganga etc... The fish tastes good when it reaches more than 50 KM inside the river (from sea). This types of fish ( which can survive both in sea water and sweet water, tastes good when it spends substantial time in sweet water.

#118 dont hide behind "chowk readers", you miserable hypocrite.

tahmed writes "lying hypocrite masadi.

PS: The enough is all the response I need to provide to a hypocrite. "

Where is the lie and where is the hypocrisy, please elaborate for the benefit of chowk readers. Thank you for your kind time (you miserable peon of the West)

Filtering is good. I hope Chowkstaff has finally found a system where it can be properly done to prevent this from turning into a hate-speech site.

Banning is good too for multiple offenses. But then a ban must be permanent and no offender should be allowed back with a different nic. After all, how many IP headers can one change? Manner of speech alone would betray it, though manual scrutiny would be required for such offenders.

Congrats Chowkstaff. This is a welcome step.

Re: # 103
What is size of fish ? color before cooking and after ? Same fish in upper riches they say not good, read lower reaches from BD mostly sold to "rich" bengali of india, big export item heard. Long time ago when seas around karachi were not poisonous great surmai fish was very good. Some times big propfet call halava and dark fleshed same spacies saranga were plentiful now all in decline. All sea is empyied by efficient chinese, thai and oriental people take away and local fishermen get shaft as usual. They sell rights to these peoiple but local fisherman suffer. A sn ZIndus influx of fresh water and demise of trees along costal area big fish production is history.

Akram,

Thanx man. I too had fights with Arjun for his inhuman responses but the posts filtered by them is wrong. Anywhay, nobody is going pay a heed. Let them have ball.

Re: # 95
Ahmed...
It is something around 8.5 to 9...
Agriculture is keeping India down.So much subsidy but no visible growth....

Re: # 82
Anil...
Hindu Socialism....

Indian philosophy covers everything....

Geeta's "ma phalesu kadachana..." is closest to socialism...But then again, it is difficult to reach that thinking level...

#106 Posted by VRV

I agree; I think Arjun is wrongly victimised and vilified just because he has a colourful personality albeit displaying it in his own refreshingly unique way

I for one have always been a keen proponent of 'individuality' and against the fascists that try to suppress it just because of a personal sense of 'likes and dislikes' and a hyped up sense of self-riteous morality

Re: # 108
Tahmed...
Hilsa is proper only with rice items. The smell and the fat is different from other sea fishes. It does not have the universal appeal like Pomfret.
Such mixed water fishes tastes different. People of Bengal, Orissa, Assam, Tripura... like it very much. Majumder sould be big fan of it.

Re: # 92
Create Alpha
Ans: I have nice answer for this. Machine can not work without human. It is just tool to make human life better and fuels progress of human civilisation.
We need some mechanism to reduce human population...

ahmedmadani: there is a big difference between Qureshi and Aziz. Qureshi came for a specific purpose - namely to serve as interim President and conduct elections. He carried out his duties properly by holding elections that were considered by and large to be free and fair. And then he left in a respectable manner.

Aziz came in supposedly for a specific purpose - namely to serve as interim PM under an interim President. He then decided to stay on the job and help perpetuate Musharraf's illegal rule. And then he left like a thief running off into the night.

So, please dont lump respectable people with crooks.

nkg #103 like i said to cheema, i first (and last) heard of hilsha fish in bangladesh. while bangladeshis assumed that the rest of the world was swooning over bengal's hilsha fish, i frankly found nothing particularly spectacular in its taste or appearance. it was just another fish as far as i could tell.

lying hypocrite masadi.

PS: The enough is all the response I need to provide to a hypocrite.

We know that Arjun is a difficult person but what's wrong with Arjun's posts 93 & 94? Was it bcos he mentioned Manto?

Is Manto's wife who's editing this site?

+++++

Mr. Safwan Shah,

Why secrecy abt the ppl who edit this site? No magazine - real or Intenet - maintains this secrecy? Have some transparency, plz.

Re: # 30
Mao was not cheat,pervert...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUYQwCW5ShQ

Re: # 70
Tahmed...
Ans: The quality of jute, produced in lower Ganges delta is superior than any other place. So, they call it "golden fibre".Brits started commercial tea cultivation in India, specially Darjeeling, Terai and Duars regions. That had spread to hill areas (north eastern) areas of Bangladesh also. Flavour wise Daljeeling tea was quite popular in India for long time. East european countries and Russia was major market for such tea.
Regarding Hilsa. This fish is really tasty (fat and smell)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilsa

Iqbal was brilliant Shariati was brilliant -- they were not Islamo-socialists -- Iqbal was a Indian Islamo-fascists -- Shariati was an Iranian Islamo-fascist -- both were the children and the grand children of the original Afghani Islamo-fascist Jamaluddin Afghani of the original Pan Islamiist movement.

Between the three of them they messed up the whole region from Amu Durya to Durya-e Nile to Morghab durya to Jhelum and Chanab duryas -- for decades and decades to come.

CA writes "Masadi, can you explain to me what would humans do in your future, when machines continue to produce more and more and human intervention is going to be minimal"

They'll direct their energies towards upsetting the system of the deception and manipulation set in motion by an elite that keeps them deprived inspite of the "machines producing more and more"- people were never meant to be cogs in the machinery of capital. Studying sociology would be a catalyst towards eventual human liberation, so that would be a good choice for the smart ones to make....

NFP Sahib,

this is not from amongst your better articles.

It needed more meat and appears to just scratch the surface!

Ali Shariati extended Iqbal's thought processes to the

point that joint days of recognition for both had begun

to be held.

Shariati was just plain brilliant!

His "Civilization and Modernization" is a reflection of

that brilliance. I wonder how many CHOWKIES have read it?

Ras

Re: # 90 It is not very kind to criticise both gentleman they gave service to the motherland. Please note both are and were successful gental in area of finance in advanced country like usa. They tried best amy be failed but failure is not crime. What is better done by home grown finance ministers. It is not easy to change economy for better there is no magic. Indian prime minister is also bank man he has not been not successful to do much , but indians do not speak with such attitude. If we show such attitude the people like aziz why they should come to pakistan destroying their future prospects. I do not much remember what mr. Q did , but he was requested to help for short time as hardship and he did job and went to back usa. Then why expak experts with knowledge why they should damage themselves and come to ungrateful people ?
Now Mr Aziz tried his best and he aimed and failed due to many factors but failure is not crime but low aim is . As you know as you are in USA MR.Aziz lost chance of his life to become president of city bank of usa ( largest bank in usa ). For pakistan he told bank he will not accept position then his subordinate some Kashmiri Hindu has become president of Bank. Now that was big loss accepted by mr. Aziz for this country of motherland. He copuld have told general and rejected his request to come on sabatical to help the economy and he did his best. Now he was failure as no body was listening to him . He could not impliment his financial reform. He tried to sell white elephants like PSM and what not and it was rejected by court. He was able to get rid of lragest city power company and now it is now saudi investor problem as people just take out all juice illeagaly. Even saudis who are benefactors they do not know how to stop this financial bleeding it is black hole financially same way PSM. But p-eople do not liked him as he asked people to sacrafice ( he sacraficed by his own example by refusing to become president of bank).
Plerase blame our national attitude do not make scape goat of people like aziz who made sacrafice for ungrateful people. This gives bad message to expak , please do not come , whatever good you do will paid with ingratitude. All people who leave are better educated and are successful people and average man on street is proud of them. WE know they bring good name to country by serving as doctors, managers, scientist, bankers. There are idols of people and they are aspirations for average man as he knows he works hard his children can also go to places like usa and everybody proud. You can criticise then but DO NOT CONDEM THEM, they did their best. Finally we living here have to carry our cross ( nobody can help even mr. J.Christ told people who came out to carry his cross, pleas do not every body has to carry his and for son of god also) , No qureshi or Aziz can help. We have to work hard and children work hard and then they will go to west. No easy way.

Please do not paint mr. Aziz as villan or evil man, he may not be good pm or finance but he carried hois cross till end of regime.

Please calm down
Good luck good day.

Re: # 94, 19.4% growth is very best by any standard. How much is hindu growth rate presently ?
Good day

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Masadi, can you explain to me what would humans do in your future, when machines continue to produce more and more and human intervention is going to be minimal? Sit around and study sociology?

#78 Posted by bulleya,

It was played in Capital Talk today. This is really unbelievable. Abdullah Yousaf, Chairman CBR, inviting Musharraf to dance with him on "Sanoo nehr waley pul tey bula key' and Musharraf accepting.

This undoubtedly strengthens Urstruly's guillotines argument.

Since the time Moeen Qureshi was sent by global soodkhors as a peon of West to "manage" Pakistan , Pakistan has been forced to practice unbridled capitalism. The second peon, shoukat aziz, sent by the same soodkhors made sure that all the red blood in pakisdtani veins is replaced by the yellow serum of capitalism.

So here we are, twenty years later - food has disappered form markets; people are selling their children for food; there is no electricity in the country; gasoline is being sold at prices as if Pakistan is situated in europe; pak rupee is not even worth the value of a toilet paper as comaperd to dollar; lawlessness has reached a stage where people have started setting criminals ablaze since law enforcement has ceased to exist; and citizens are hunting down public and political officials to guillotine them thru suicide bombings; mothers are throwing their children in front of the trains.

This is all a curse upon us of a system called capitalism, the most exploitative system man has ever invented to make humanity miserable. Oh Lord! deliver us from this evil. Oh Lord have mercy on us.

Hamid writes "mad masadi,.."

The "madness" in me might yet be your salvation.....fool

g'night

No you idiot (that would be hamid), I'm saying that socialism is conducive to Islam while capitalism is the way of the Shaitan towards which the mullahs run blindly

Hamid writes "mad masadi,

.... so you are saying that communism plus god and his prophet equals islam ???

.... now i have heard everything !!! "

No you idiot, I'm saying that socialism is conducive to Islam which capitalism is the way of the Shaitan towards which the mullahs run blindly. You cannot generate the values promoted by Islam (socially) under the relationships of production set in motion by capitalism- thus by running towards capitalism saying "there is god in that system" and socialism is "godless", the mullahs, the idiots that they are, running headlong towards what is the undoing of a Muslim community, and what they are left with are empty slogans and the shaitan's promises of deception, as he butchers the souls of humanity, Muslim, Christian or whatever....

Re: # 84

mad masadi,

.... so you are saying that communism plus god and his prophet equals islam ???

.... now i have heard everything !!!

There is no such thing as "Islamic Socialism", those who talk about it dont know what Socialism is and they don't know what Islam is. Socialism refers to an evolutionary stage that comes after the inevitable collapse of capialism (which cannot be prevented in the Marxian formula) and is a transitory period of adjustment where the state plays the role to get rid of the vestiges of capitalism for communism to emerge in which there will be no state.

In Islam, ownership of the means of production is not confined to the state, neither is ownership private as in capitalism for it to be exploitive, humankind is considered trustee of Allah and not owner of anything, and in fulfilling the trust of whatever he or she "owns" is a set portion for redistribution of surplus wealth. In this redistributive function, in which the state plays an active role is where Socialism resembles Islam, and not in the state's ownership of the means of production.

Now, in a community type society with common values, the Quranic formula is easily applied and can lead to great egalitarianism and "entrepreneurship" (to quote anil favourite phrase), by unleashing human talent that is for the vast majority kept underdeveloped by capitalism. Such a forumla however, cannot work in a capitalist society where values are diverse and deliberately manipulated and created to benefit the owners of the means of production, because they moreso than the masses dominate the state and the predominant value that is incorporated in a structure generated by them is greed and the value of acquiring wealth. In other words in their system, no good deed goes unpunished! So just as socialism is a transitory evolutionary stage to reach "communism", so I say for Muslims to form a society that guarantees basic human needs and results in the development of the kind the Quran talks about, they must pass through socialism given the mode of production of our times, otherwise the masses will keep bickering and fighting, and the elite will use the name of Islam for anything and everything while fulfilling every dirty agenda of the West.....

Anil writes "Madani Sahib:

"...Mr. Anil what about hindu socialism ? ..."

Madani sahib, this person is a certified idiot and peon of the West. He talks "individualism" where it concers the poor and the downtrodden so that they get blamed for their misery which is system generated, on the other hand he forgets all about "individualism" where it comes to the powerful corporations, which have assumed the character of an individual (for the entire collectivity) and actively seek the intervention of governmen to both bail them out and protect them from competitiors or loot wholesale like barbarians from the public as in the S&L debacle and recently in the sub prime crisis or the Enron BS and the likes. He then sanitizes all of this by saying its "enterpreneurship" as if that's some magic word for legitimizing monopoly control of wealth and knowledge (by applying patents) and keeping the vast majority of humanity chasing after crumbs for mere survival, keeping them under or un educated, and under or unemployed and then saying that they will compete with those who are well fed and attend the top private institutions....

Re: # 33

Madani Sahib:

"...Mr. Anil what about hindu socialism ? ..."

That is what you say, when you make a joke. Hinduism emphasizes indvidualism and with its castes it probably would at best be the primitive capitalisism.

Anil

tahmed peon of the West and traitor to the East writes " I have never heard of any plan to actually separate Bangladesh from Pakistan. Why do you believe there was such a plan?"

Bangladesh was never joined to Pakistan, not geographically, neither politically (as the elections of 1970 revealed), and the ruling elite the Pakistan military and the feudals were vested in the West and not the East. It was simply more convenient for them to maintain their control with minimal loss of power by letting go of Bangladesh. Further when the brits (those you worship) did this BS division with a major enemy in between, and an ethnic divide of significant numbers, they assumed that it would break away down the road, if they didn't then they must have been damn fools (like you).....

Err the ideologue behind Arab Socialism i.e. Baathism was Michel Aflaq a Greek Orthodox Christian

Re: # 77'

"As for sex, I wonder if it is true but a true momin once told me that, in addition to what you say, the only acceptable sexual position is the missionary position and a bath is mandatory after 'subhanallah'"(DM)

DM -- that true Momin was actually a false Momin because he has not smelled the fragrance of the famous Arab Kamasutra called the The Perfumed Garden by Sheikh Nafzaoui -- a book of thousand Islamic positions.

Speaking of art, the following has to be seen to be believed........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9Damy4cEk

hamidm#47:

For once, your sarcasm is misplaced. Islamic art is, in my opinion, a great example of what the human creativity can do when constraints are placed upon it. Just as Iranians under the Shia rule have made some very creative art films, the same minds earlier did when faced with the Islamic injunctions on music and figures (and tahmed saheb, please do not ask where in the quran does it say anything about music and art, I am praising Muslims here?). They turned writing the quranic verses (calligraphy) itself into a beautiful art, turned to nature and geometry for paintings and sculpture and saying azaan itself became musical.

As for sex, I wonder if it is true but a true momin once told me that, in addition to what you say, the only acceptable sexual position is the missionary position and a bath is mandatory after 'subhanallah'.

Sir, NFP tell when was it ever aything but the wrong mix?

AKcheema, you need to bow down to His Holiness, The Prophet of Profitable Chowk, The Tunkil, TAhmed32.

He has an interesting take on everything religious espcially islam.

He is both tweedledum and tweedledee at the same time. His Holiness, the Prophet of Profit, hides his amusement behind Hamimdm2's apparent irreverence.

Re: # 71

Khuda Hafiz tahmed sahib

Re: # 47 Posted by hamidm2 on May 20, 2008 4:27:07 am

Hamid mian,

[.. i learned all about islamic sex in order to pass the 50 point islamiyat paper in engineering college]

you are an engineer? which college are you talking about?


[ - it prohibits foreplay, requires the participants to place a sheet between their bodies and pray a lot before, during and after the act ! ... subhanallah ]

did you learn to follow these islamic codes to be observed in the process of sexual ecstacy?

Re: # 70; tahmed

who uses jute these days and for what?
Tea...if I ever drink it, I only drink Darjeeling or Assam
Caviar....yuk!

and what the heck is this hilsha thing?

OK have a nice day, doctor sahib. I trust you will re-read the Quran carefully, and not let this false prophet hamidm lead you astray.

bangladesh jute is made of gold!! bangladesh tea is reserved for british royalty!! and their hilsha fish beats the ..er..caviar.. out of those miserables creatures they pull out of the atlantic or pacific any day (at least so the bangladeshis assured me, even though i had never heard of hilsha fish before visiting bangladesh).

Re: # 66; tahmed

that is why I used the word BEFORE!

tea in 'our' language means dinner/supper etc and not that vile stuff the grow in banglaland...

OK cheema sahib. i was just trying to give a fellow refugee from hoshiarpur a hard time. cheers!! :-)

OK cheema sahib. i was just trying to give a fellow refugee from hoshiarpur a hard time. cheers!! :-)

you did now.

Re: # 63;tahmed

when????????

I never said a word about bangladeshis before!!!!

#62 you ask "who would invite bangladeshis to tea?", sir? Bangladesh is where they invented tea (almost..except for those blessed chinese who seemed to have invented everything).

OK. not condemned, but "cast vague negative aspersions about". same thing, basically.

Re: # 60; tahmed

I never condemned bangladeshis; fair dos I don't invite them around for tea willy nilly but then who would...

Re: # 59

...condemned...

bangladeshi, doctor sahib.

Re: # 58; tahmed

which community have I condemmed now sir?

#57 cheema sahib: never condemn an entire community of people, sir. because then you are, sure as God made little green apples, wrong.

Re: # 54; tahmed

and the peon might have set you right on bangladeshis too; I think I know what he was on about...

#55 cheema sahib: as peon sahib would say, are you calling art nonsense, sahib?

Re: # 53

its good to appreciate all this non-sense once in a while to stock up on some self-worth; but let us not loose perspective here...

#53 cheema sahib: are you calling mr. hamidm a "middle aged buffoon"? as peon sahib would say, I strongly protest that sir!!

Re: # 51; tahmed sahib,
"and if all you got out of the "Palace and Mosque" exhibition of islamic art"

Sir let's face it; what exactly is artistic about some middle aged baffoon trying to use the collective wealth of his subjects to construct 'monuments' and 'palaces' whilst the majority of his subjects go hungry?

If so, by the same token, would you also condone the several palaces constructed in Baghdad in recent past by Mr Hussain Al-Takriti too?

Its all very nice until we understand the 'true' history and 'significance' behind this so-called art....

HP: #44 While people were, after the initial shock, relieved to no longer have what they considered to be the continuously complaining bengalis in Pakistan, I have never heard of any plan to actually separate Bangladesh from Pakistan. Why do you believe there was such a plan?

hamidm #47 So you did go to the show - which means that your rants about "islamic art" are fake. and dont blame it on the missus for forcing you to go.

and if all you got out of the "Palace and Mosque" exhibition of islamic art was "squiggly calligraphy" then perhaps then obviously you went to a different exhibition than the one I saw.

The show made a distinction between "Palace" vs "Mosque" art in the sense that the former included paintings like the persian and mughal miniatures whereas the latter included not just calligraphy (which is in fact quite graceful) but woodwork as well. It had pottery and showed how muslims learnt about fine china from the chinese and passed it on to the europeans. It showed how persian paintings evolved to absorb the realistic european style as the two civilizations came in contact. Someone could write a book on that one show alone - and in fact they had a book prepared.

And all you have to say is that it was "squiggly calligraphy"!! The large crowds in cities across the US, and the great reviews it received in newspapers, begged to differ with you.

Why is terms like Catholocity made to be associated with kindness Christianity (catholics }Is that less disassociative than Islamic anything.words are just association .Jehad is now dirty word recently but not so before .No matter u practice or not there IS something that loosely called 'Islamic economics'.
if you accept evolution of christians which is more than 600 yrs older are we not at the stage christianity was 1400 something ?

Church of Scientology



Scientology organization in Hamburg, GermanyThe 'Church' of Scientology is the largest organization devoted to the practice and the promotion of the Scientology belief system. The 'Church' of Scientology International is the mother 'church 'of the Scientology 'religion', and is responsible for the overall ecclesiastical management, dissemination and propagation of Scientology.[1][2][3] Every Church of Scientology is separately incorporated and

#38 #39

Do you ever try to argue for argument sake.Just for once dont try to be yes man apologist b/c more eloquent Hamidm says that
Not that i think all science eminate from Koran for god knows i haven 't eversen a rich muslim pay his share of zakat,Majority of muslim do not understand arabic to figure out anything.Interpretation are as many and modified amended to form score of lemlins folowing either agah khan burhanuddin mirzaee peer murids in subcontinent Chisty ,Nizamuddin

Seperating political ideology and science from religion (islam )is all fine But this joined atthe hip is not unique to Islam ....hindutva has become Vedic ,Christian earlier incorporate sciencepart of Christianity Islam is trying to come to terms with reality and irrefutable facts of life as other religions nothibg derogatory of islam.Why there is CHISTIAN science monitor Why Mary Baker Eddy did the same thing Benifits of Sports exercise and athelitism was incorported as mUscular christianity




"Muscular Christianity is a term used to refer to a movement within the Victorian era which stressed the need for energetic Christian activism in combination with an ideal of vigorous masculinity. It was most associated with the English writers Charles Kingsley and Thomas Hughes, though the name was bestowed by others.

Kingsley and Hughes promoted physical strength and health (at least for men) as well as an active pursuit of Christian ideals in personal life and politics.

The term has also been applied to later movements that combine physical and Christian spiritual development"






"The Christian Science Monitor (CSM) is an international newspaper published daily, Monday through Friday. Started in 1908 by Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of the Church of Christ, Scientist, .
Forum page, the content represents international and United States news."

sheep herding .........

....as far as i can remember, islamic socialism was just another empty slogan invented by zab to sell himself to the unwashed and islam obsessed masses ...... the unwashed masses understood the simple slogan of 'roti, kapra aur makan' but zab had to confuse them with big words like :"islam hamara deen, socialism hamari maeeshat!" ..... like all leaders of the moslem herd he had to play up islam to appease the sheep and get them to fall in line ...... in order to sell anything to the moslems you have to label it 'islamic' ..... that's all

Re: # 38

tahmed,

.... i saw the palace and mosque exhibition and, like i said, it was half ass ........ repetitious geometric shapes and squiggly calligraphy gets monontonous after about five minutes ....... we moslems are obsessed with 'islamizing' everything and in the process making fools out of ourselves ....... islamic science and sex are great examples ...... i learned all about islamic sex in order to pass the 50 point islamiyat paper in engineering college - it prohibits foreplay, requires the participants to place a sheet between their bodies and pray a lot before, during and after the act ! ... subhanallah

Re: # 40; NP
"People are given false hopes that you will be given everything as things will drop from sky."

why can't we damn it!

if the prototypical 'chosen nation' could have the "manna", then why not us??!!

The decision to give up East Pakistan was made well before the 1971 war.

#44 Posted by HP on May 19, 2008 11:38:58 pm

Such claim need corroborative evidence.

#40 Posted by NangaPir
“Pakistan was cited as an example of progress and S. Korea took the blue print and implemented it” “However that model was based on exploitation due to its nature.”

The model was suggested to Pakistan by the US after Pakistan had joined military alliances with the US. This was the reverse of the model that Soviet Union used to push as I mentioned in my earlier post.

The cold war was not just about the armaments or the military strength; it was also fought on the economic front. Both the US and the USSR pushed their own economic planning and models.

The reason it failed in Pakistan (and was successful in South Korea) was not just exploitation of Bengal but it was all about misallocations/misuse of the windfall by the Pakistan government. Instead of investing the profits back in to the country and development, the Pak army went on binges of buying expensive arms and expanded the army beyond the country’s means. The 1965 war was a major blow to the economy and keeping Bengal together with Pakistan after 1965 became too expensive due to restrictions imposed by India.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom, after 1960 West Pakistan was feeding East Pakistan. Income from the only resource (jute) from East Pakistan was not enough to feed that part of the country.

The decision to give up East Pakistan was made well before the 1971 war.

Re: # 41; madani sahib,

I don't mind one way or the other what happens to society in terms of its"sexualisation" or otherwise.

Using that argument to enslave our female population (not just physical but mental slavery; and of the worse kind) is what I'd like to see abolished.

This can only be achieved by economic empowerment of the 'better-half' of our population.

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 40; peer-o-murshid,

"Pakistan was cited as an example of progress and S. Korea took the blue print and implemented it."

I have been a great believer in that myself

yet another gem, if I may say so. Will read in more detail later.

Re: # 37
Dr. Sahib It will be great if sexual content in our society increases. Many people go out of country as they get tired lack of not sex but sexual content. Outside of lahore and karachi you travel how much fair sex is nonparticipant in life is pathetic. It is many times hard on eyes to see all beared faces and poor woman caged in special dress or just women have no value or no prescence in day to day life. It is for normal world a pleasure to eyes for men and women to large number of other sex faces add something to life. Even have observed my all wasted time ( with playing with cats and Khabootars) of beautiful things. My cats gets even get excited to new faces when they cross . I have seen new male comes all females cat just leave everything and watch new kid on block. Not they do much anything but see excitement. and otherway. Even as amature Khabootarbaj pigeons get excited with new faces and they are happy. Cats (mammals) and birds are happy and we are sexual unfortunately and sexuality is deep in our blood we can not supress but such can control and leading to sublimation. You cross west punjab to east punjab even in small cities women are driving scooters and bullock carts. That is organicness of life is lacking in Muslim nations. I have met rich arabs ( saudi) who abandoned homelands as they made cardinal mistake of visiting west where there is good sexual content in society that soothes them at same frightens. ( probably you may know how bradford little pakistan in kind Psyfreinc ( do not spelling) stage. They will not like their chidren suffer. So they some times leave motherland not for money but sexual content.
Former Wall Street editor ( Karen Lodge) wrote interesting articles in economist if correct.
She wrote most rich sauddi men and women in closed quarters open bottle of whisky and watch blue movies. They told her the sex sublimation is not possible as when they were in west.
With supression of sex sublimation is problem . Everybody knows how it is hard for women travel in public busses men pervesion easily passes from pinching bottom to bumping. You iknow better you have lived at many places .
Many times times life of muslims will more pleasuarble if sexual content in society is increased. That will also put stop on being over sensetive about religious things. Many times that suppression of sexuality may be leading to violence as most preachers are sex obsessed and at same time afraid of sexuality. So they even want to ban pictures of women but after surmon watch blue movies. It is ripe topic to lanch hundreds of PhDs. This has led to wrong information. If you ask a question to men or women what is most important sexual organ rarely you get answer as brain.
Please let us ow the name of book if on internet it will interesting to know what is muslim sexuality. One will be interested to know twhat people who have studied say.

Good day.

Social models emerge out of survival needs for all species and human are no different. It was extreme physical exploitation in Europe that helped paved the way for socialism. Religions are mostly on the side of oppressed but in Europe that was the real powerhouse of the world, one-third wealth belonged to church. The last such stronghold was apartheid South Africa. In one two three Marx translated it into Revolution, Class Struggle and Dictatorship of Proletariat. Workers successfully established Paris commune earlier but were overrun in few weeks. After great turmoil Bolsheviks succeeded in controlling Russia. A gang mugged Lenin on the third day of assuming power in Moscow. You can realize the circumstances the revolution took place. Some countries were in dire need but in others it became a romantic fashion for rich and a false hope for the poor. Anyway, communist up to this point have successfully learned how to organize, campaign, bring and defend revolution. So Paris commune scenario was not repeated. However, they needed to learn how to run it. Our cosmos is a dynamic phenomenon and flows due to differential imbedded at the quantum level in the form of probability and randomness. But Lenin vehemently rejected quantum idea as Bourgeois poly. Then in China, the communist party started its campaign in areas where farmers used to work at night because they had no clothes. That is how the revolution is organized. Although this is not the appropriate forum to talk as all those who visit here are affluent and do not need revolution unless they are highly conscious of it. Arabs actually started nationalism not socialism in that part of world. Qaddafi had his own version with his Green Book. This was in response to European monopolizing of Arabian resources. Ba’ath party’s General Secretary was a Christian so the question of Islamic socialism is out of question. The author just wrote hotch potch things collected from scattered resources. Bhutto had nothing with socialism. His fundamental slogan was Taskand Agreement. He needed students’ help and when he visited Dow Medical College, NSF forced him to wear a red star and included socialism in his manifesto. That was a turning point. Pakistan under General Ayub Khan made huge strides in energy and other infrastructure. In just 20 years it had proportionate matching structure with India. All the huge projects were left in India including Tata Berla, educational etc. Pakistan had only some irrigation system and military cantonments. Pakistan was cited as an example of progress and S. Korea took the blue print and implemented it. If the progress had gone smoothly then Pakistan would be ahead of S. Korea. However that model was based on exploitation due to its nature. Bengalis were the main victim and there was no hope that the fruit of this capitalist venture will ever trickle over there. Maulana Bhashani had socialism too. Wali Khan had his own socialism. So it was a mix bag.
Socialism is a socio-economic model. Bhutto did lot of blunders and Islamic socialism was one of them. He confiscated mills etc and handed over to his party goons who just robbed them at various levels. This decimated the whole development process. But worse of his crimes were rehabilitating the East Pakistan war criminals and giving them nukes. He paid dearly for that. Mujahideen Khaliq are now allied with CIA. Ex-Iranian president also joined them. So you can figure out their ideological standards. Building planned socialism is wrong. Whenever you build any such thing you will have external forces attacking it. You will have to build walls like Berlin or American or Israeli or DMZ. Let thing evolve naturally and let them flow. People are given false hopes that you will be given everything as things will drop from sky. No plan is made how to scientifically and efficiently utilize resources Russian paid for that policy. Chinese were quick but they will have huge problem. Capitalism is like oil beneath hot water. They have capitalist economy and communist rule. Whenever Uncle Sam would like there will be movement for freedom and democracy over there. But now Americans are doing what made Russian bankrupt. Sustain allies with money and that is the real problem. Today lack of capitalism is considered as an issue not it exploitation because of development of science and technology. In short most communist movements achieved their objectives of education, health, jobs and ending colonialism. But they did not learn the treachery and dishonesty of conventional bourgeois politics. Today when they compare Cuba with Miami imbecile say socialism is failure. In fact they need to compare Cuba with Haiti or Dominican Republic. And when it is claimed that if Burma would give us access we will save all those hit by Cyclone. But they forget how many did you save in Katrina. It needs high acumen to solve capitalist puzzles. In conclusion, there is nothing like Islamic, Hindu, national or Christian socialism. But some try hard to be. As we have political science, computer science, Islamic science and even Christian Science. But the real sciences, such as Physics, Chemistry etc do need such a nametag.

further to #38 I agree though that the concept of "Islamic science" is absurd (unless muslims indeed live in a different universe, as arjun claims), as is the concept of an "Islamic state" (which is merely another way of enslaving a nation by an individual or group of individuals).

hamidm: While scientists are seeking to proved that for every particle of matter there exists a particle of anti-matter, you have proved that for every islamic fanatic there exists an anti-islamic fanatic.

That is the only explanation I can find to understand why you think "Islamic art" is half-assed (your words). Too bad the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK or the Smithsonian Museum in Washington DC, both of which have permanent exhibitions devoted to Islamic art dont share your pov. Also too bad the hundreds of thousands of people in the US who visited the special exhibition titled "Palace and Mosque" a couple of years ago dont share your pov.

Re: # 36; hamidm sahib,

recently I came across a book titled "Islamic Sexuality"!!

islamic socialism seems to be like islamic music, art and fashion ........... half ass

It will be interesting to know if iranian Tudeh party had faternal relationships with afghan socialists Khakaquis and perchamis ?
It appears Tedeh had some following and Imam Khomani used them against shah and then islamic revolutionaries slaughtered THIS SOCIALISTS. Iran Kurdish movement was socialist type but after revolution when they angered many were hanged by Islamic republic gauards to break the dangerous splitist socialistcs ideas. By hanging kurds in Mahabad in open day light they put fear of god in kurdish population. In general in middle east and muslim world many strong men captured power ( many were defence officers) they proclaimed as socialist but followed brute authoritian regimes. That made many arabs/ Muslims to loose attraction to name and ideas of socialism. These dictetors misued name of socialism for personal dictership.

Nadeem:

Yaar, don't take this the wrong way, but please bring us back some more fiction (other than this article which is being called fiction)

Barai meh'rbani ho gi. :)

Re: # 29 Mr. Anil what about hindu socialism ? I expect most commies and followers are hindu right ? So why criticise islamic socialism.

Z A Bhutto was socialist leader. I think lots of his problems has problem in his drinking alcohol. He was for equality and socialist but his friend religious man Kasuri got him in alcohol big way and in such hangover was influenced about his decision abvout "ahmedis". Now days many are for alcohol moderation but there is no moderation in alcohol. Initially man controls alcohol but later alcohol controls him. This I wrote as it is fashionable amoung socialist to drink, smoke and zina sex ., disrespect of traditions and contempt of common man,and they think too highly and of them selves and lazy , loose talk,etc and worst they are proud and think as they are making revolution. Big talk, no action and drinking, smoking and going foreign has killed socialism in Pakistan. Last hope of socialism was Mrs Bhutto and now she is gone.

But things are not bad. Japanese are high on pakistan and send their top boss.
"Toyota Tsusho chairman visits Indus Motor plant



Tuesday, May 20, 2008
By our correspondent

KARACHI: Toyota Tsusho Corporation (TTC) Japan’s Chairman M Furukawa recently visited the Indus Motor Company.

Senior officials of the IMC briefed him on the assembly-line processes and was gave a presentation highlighting IMC’s performance and achievements. He also reviewed on-going expansion projects of the company, which include a press-plant for making car-body parts, automation of production lines, etc.

Furukawa praised the quality of Toyota and Daihatsu vehicles assembled at the plant and also appreciated the company for increasing its production capacity. Furukawa also presented an award to IMC’s management on achieving the milestone of over 50,000 vehicles sale for 2007. He reiterated TTC’s ongoing commitment and support to IMC for further expanding production facilities.

Indus Motor Company chairman Ali S Habib thanked Furukawa for visiting Pakistan and appreciated Toyota Tsusho Corporation’s role in supporting Indus Motor’s both in becoming a major auto-manufacturer as well as a significant contributor to the economy of Pakistan."

This quite significant as japan has achieved what all socialists of pakistan want, minimum wage garanttee and food water and house ( Roti Kapada and makan).

Now socialist = communist- dedication is my defenition.
Now they want to have advantage of "prestige of communist" but generally no guts as usa controlled pakistani govt cracks on them. They want to have both ways support of poor and they want to live like western people.

Problem with pakistani left, socialist is lack of hard work to organise oppressed class and no cader. They are always tails of Mullahs and what not.

Now only socialist who are bit successful and with popular support is indian marxists. They are establishment. They have 3 elected governers pronices and they have all india trade union organization. They are part of present govt. Now they elected 1st elected communist province govt. They get defeated and and get elected.

Second is nepal a hindu nation, they gave big backing to marxists. It appears they will drive out king may be z and N can lean from mr. Prachanda of nepaL.

This feat even china socialist can not do and they can not allow elections.

Why is India and nepal have strong left democratic marxists and we have none, no influence of socialism ?
Intelluctuals can answer. Except different race and religion and color there is no difference. Colorwise socioalist ideas came from white people so we are more near to white race. We have great western influence but there is no profound impact of ideas of socialism though we have good feudalism and capitalism and tradesman ship. I feel socialism will be next step. Hope intelluctual who have travelled world and studied socialism etc can throw light on plight of socialistic ideas. Before I use to feel its related to meat eating and due to that miond becomes hot headed but india is also hot temp country and same way nepal. Reason may be in india nehru univ etc brainwash and make socialist, mr. Prachanda learned abc of marxism in nehru college of delhi some say.

Good day everybody.

This article is replete with factual inaccuracies, typically committed by a moron who wants to write a 'research' artcle using his imagination.

So ZAB was inluenced by the 'Arab Socialism' in the Middle East?! WTF?!!

Paracha wouldn't know research even if he renamed his dildo with it.

islamists and commies

pehle mo, phir mao...

Nadeem Sahib:

You really got carried away in giving title "Islamic" to socialism. Hitler had used National as the adjective for his brand of National Socialism.

There was nothing remotely spiritual or even socialist about when Arab Nationalism was started by Gamal Abdel Nassar. He saw an alignment with Nehru, Sukarno and Chou En Li. Jakarta Conference of Non-Aligned Movement was the result. Staying on the Arab Nationalism, Egypt for a long time was called "United Arab Republic" and had notional union with Syria and Iraq. Geo-politics of oil would never have let this happen. Nationalization of Suez Canal became the reason to unify. Soviets jumped in to help build Aswan Dam, when America backed to support England and France on Suez Canal. Colonialist could not hold on the canal, and the U.S. made more strategic mistake to support colonialists after refusing to support Ho Chi Minh.

I am also in search of that magical "Ummah" or "Islamic" identity which seems to elude but so talked about. As the people who talk about it tend to get identified with "Islamic" terrorism, therefore any "Islamic" or religious name as the adjective is harmful. Please keep Islam (religion) and socialism out.

It is really about Arab Identity, earlier it would have been called, Arab Nationalism.

HP,

Yeah, did a quick google and the idea seems to be very fuzzy. But wiki did lead me to the Tatars and how their sharia based revolt metamorphed to particiapation in the Red Army and how they were ultimately purged by Stalin. Interesting! Didn't know anything about it.

GT,
Islamic Socialism
Some peoples party web site may have more in on it.

"One of the notable persons in this context was the leader of the Pakistan People's Party, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who lived from 1928 to 1979 and became Prime Minister of Pakistan. He promoted Islamic socialism after the Islamic scholars declared him and his system to be atheist."

Nadeem is using this definition from wiki Which is just pile of shit.

"Islamic socialism is a term coined by various Muslim leaders to counter the demand at home for a more spiritual form of socialism. Orthodox Islamic scholars declare socialists to be atheist, and declare various socialist programs, such as the confiscation of private property, to be oppressive and against Islamic teachings. Muslim socialists, on the other hand, believe that the teachings of Muhammad are compatible with principles of equality and the redistribution of wealth.

The first experimental Islamic commune was established during the Russian Revolution of 1917 as part of the Wäisi movement, an early supporter of the Soviet regime. The Muslim Socialist Committee of Kazan was also active at this time also.

One of the notable persons in this context was the leader of the Pakistan People's Party, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who lived from 1928 to 1979 and became Prime Minister of Pakistan. He promoted Islamic socialism after the Islamic scholars declared him and his system to be atheist.

Muammar al-Qaddafi, who seized power in Libya with a military coup in 1969, called his ruling ideology "Islamic socialism".

Siad Barre, who came to power in Somalia during the revolution of 1969, called his ruling and economic policies as "scientific socialism".

Other notable Muslim socialists include:

* Rafi Ahmed Kidwai
* Haji Misbach

Islamic Marxism

Islamic Marxism has been used to describe Ali Shariati [Shariati and Marx: A Critique of an "Islamic" Critique of Marxism by Assef Bayat] and the 1979 Iranian revolution, including the parties that came into power following the revolution, eg Ruhollah Khomeini and Mojahedin-e-Khalq Organization [1]

See also

* Arab Socialism
* The Green Book
"

GT,
You are right it should be "means of Production".
I hope people would make the necessary correction.

Thanks.

"The way in which society organizes production. Marxists claim that the system of ownership of the means of production is the foundation of all social systems, and that the superstructure—the politics and ideology of a society—takes its character from the mode of production. "

HP:

I did not know that there was a term called "Islamic Socialism" and that it was coined by the PPP. Can you suggest a reading/reference on it. By the way, you write:

"....groups that own the modes of production."

One does not own a mode of production. Feudalism and capitalism are, for example, modes of production.