Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State

nanga, more important thing is to understand your pov.

What did you mean by all those fights in kashmir, chechnya, thailand, phillipines etc. being for 'national recognition'? How is that 'national recognition' related to Islam (or not)? Thanks in advance.

Re: # 120
"Today generation thinks that it is notrhing less than the acts of a pedophile. Just read the historical writing of Bukhari'- the eminent Muslim Chronicler."

Which generation, and which people are you referring to? The ones that work secretly for NGOs to stir up trouble in Muslim lands?

"Do you think Bukhari be killed like a rat? Or should it be treated as a fact"

Bukhari sahib is dead, and God WILL either question him for inserting insulting narrations or those who did so on his behalf. Many times, scholars don't say certain things but folks later on falsely attribute utterances to them!

I've said it before, not everything in these hadith books can be considered the truth. Quite a few things go against the character of Prophets and God's own commands. I believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, Ahadith (narrations, occurences, happenings) are the words of men about a man!

You must listen to what daddy says and not what daddy's friend's acquaintance says about daddy. The same problem arises when Mark, Matthew, Luke and John describe Biblical events. They AND Paul vary because they never actually met Isa (peace on him). The Gospel of Barnabas is unknown to most Christians because it paints a picture of an actively struggling ('Jihadi' you might say) Prophet!

[In 325 C.E., the Nicene Council was held, where it was ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script should be destroyed. An Edict was issued that any one in possession of these Gospels will be put to death. In 383 C.E., the Pope secured a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas and kept it in his private library!]

This does not mean that one must not dig into Ahadith literature to find out how life was really back then. You'd rather believe The History Channel or Nat-Geo than these narrations! The child marriage issue is a no-issue, a dead horse being flogged, no truth at all. So move on brother.

I suggest you save the Gujjars from extermination in India rather than worry about non-issues.

Reagrds.

PS: Do ask sensible questions but not what Mr. Laddu, BJ, and NKG have already asked, otherwise it becomes repetitive and boring.

The a-holes from Ali Sina's whitemansfaith site have hijacked this thread with their meaningless copy pastes proving once again to us that these morons possess the brains of baboons and cannot think worth a fart, little wonder that their master, the Senile man himself only has his e-coli to keep him company at the select spot where the sun don't shine....keep up with this BS fools, you know damn all about Islam to compose even one intelligent argument against it...

#94 Posted by Eklavya on May 23, 2008 6:46:55 pm
re: arjun
"Nanga pir is highlighting that Muslims in all these countries (and in many other countries yet to be mentioned) are a separate nation."

I thought you could have done much much better. If you have read Nanga's previous post, it is very clear even from Quoran there is no such thing as Muslim as a NATION. Jinnah got Pakistan seprated or so called freedom from British NOT Indians. India got one day later. So why not direct all your anger against bloody Brits. But oops they are white superior master. And Jinnah had highest fear that religious forces will drive back Pakistan into United India. All religious parties were against division. Jamiate Islami, Jamiate Ulemahe Hind (Abu Kalam Azad its leader), etc were against division. Khaksar even tried to kill Jinnah. But Jinnah insisted that he tried to work with Hindus. They are so much narrow-minded they do not accept their own equal. You can not live with them. But religious parties say we can. Who is right it is obvious. That is Jamiate Ulemae Pakistan was formed. Maulana Usmani betrayed JH. Then inside Pakistan Jamiate Ulemae Islam (Fazal Rehman, Taliban, etc) was formed and still they do not accpet Muslims as a separate nation. The question is much deeper and try to press your grey matter into service litte bit more.

#120,

I know you're a monkey. But just for record.

I don't know what age the lady was, nor how old the gentleman was at the time. However, he saw something in her.

What did that lady grow up to become? The molested one? Traumatized or a great warrior and the keeper of her molester's every scrap of writing?

Never mind. I don't want an answer and please refrain. You're a hindu, and hindus (particularly cockroaches like you) are not supposed to be asked this question. But maybe you will think about it.

Kamath#122:

Thanks for that review. But in case you didn't know, Sun is a right-wing tabloid and STeyn is very very anti-islam.

But, in one of my very first interacts at chowk ten years ago, I had said that islamic reformers are likely to emerge from India or the West where Muslims are in a minority and are forced to live in the reality of a minority in a pluralist society. I believe that this development has been delayed because of the overly liberal attitude of the Western societies (which they are now regreting) but will still happen, because the quran and hadith themselves may not be sufficient to provide a complete guide to such a living; esepcially the West, where they have come after a "hijrat" from dar-ul-islam.

Re: # 123 Dost Mittar:

Child marriages are not uncommon even in today's world. It happens in India all the time. Africa is no exception.

Do you think certain values of the past should not be judged by today's std. Agreed! But even in those days certain cultural norms were condemned by the kind souls.

Can we accept slavery, brutality and torture that happened yesterday as that of the past and not condemn them? It is so barbaric. How about burning of widows on funeral pyres?

Kamath

Re: # 123 Dost Mittar:

Child marriages are not uncommon even in today's world. It happens in India all the time. Africa is no exception.

Do you think certain values of the past should not be judged by today's std. Agreed! But even in those days certain cultural norms were condemned by the kind souls.

Can we accept slavery, brutality and torture that happened yesterday as that of the past and not condemn them? It is so barbaric. How about burning of widows on funeral pyres?

Kamath

tahir#116:

Very respectfully, I disagree with you. What Muslims do or don't within their community is their business and their business alone, but when they interact with non-muslims, they can follow the quran and sunnah as long as it does not conflict with the laws of the society that they live in, justa as non-muslims have to live according to the laws of the islamic countries in which they live. I believe that this is also what Maulana Maudoodi said in respect to the Muslims who stayed back in India after the creation of Pakistan.

Re: # 121

Our conscience will be at peace if we admit that all religions are only attempts to seek the devine and all have short comings in their teachings as they are the products of the baggage of times.

One great philosopher from India S. Radhakrishnan wrote that '..religion teaches us to live ethical and moral life..". That what we should strive for and reject the lots of crap that comes withe literal translation and interpretation of any '" sacred literature".

wA sALAAAM.
kAMATH

Kamath#120:

One should be careful not to "backpolate" contemporary morals.

It was not uncommon for people to "contract" the marriage of their child at that time (I do not know if it was uncommon for an old man to marry a much younger girl).

So, Bukhari could not have been killed at that time, as he did not insult the Prophet by narrating those facts.

Dost Mittar:

You should read column by Salim Mansur who is an eminent Muslim intellectual and Professor of political science in Waterloo Univ. See the link below.

He says, '..Tarek Fatah has provided an urgent inside view of the struggle consuming the Arab-Muslim world and the future at stake with how it eventually ends. His book deserves to be widely read. .."
Kamath

Getting a read on moderation By SALIM MANSUR
Toronto Sun- Canada
See also: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Mansur_Salim/2008/05/24 /5656596-sun.php

Since the Islamist terrorist strikes on America's heartland six years ago and counting, the West wistfully waits for "moderate" Muslims to come together to take back their faith/tradition from those promoting mayhem and murder in the name of Islam.

The wait has been empty. What then is one to conclude from the absence of an organized effort by Muslims in the West stepping forth publicly to repudiate Islamists without exception?

Mark Steyn is one observer of Muslims most insistent in stating, as he does in a recent column in the National Review, that a "moderate" Muslim is a mythical creature. I enjoy immensely Steyn's writings, yet on this matter I differ with him.

It is true we have not seen Muslims living in the West come out in substantive numbers against Muslim extremists and their ideology of political Islam. But there are individual Muslims, as I observed in a column written some time ago, who at great risk "condemn the culture of violence Muslims have bred for extremists among them to exploit."
Moreover, these vulnerable Muslims "work alone, or in small groups of like-minded Muslims, despite being maligned and ostracized by fellow Muslims, to dissect and expose Muslim extremism to the world at large while striving against immense difficulties to keep faith in the ideals of Islam."
Tarek Fatah -- a "moderate" Muslim by any definition, television host in Toronto of the Muslim Chronicle and founding member of the Muslim Canadian Congress -- in a recently published book, Chasing a Mirage, confirms my observation.

Since Iran's leader Ayatollah Khomeini pronounced in 1989 the notorious religious-based opinion for Muslims to murder Salman Rushdie for writing The Satanic Verses, the world remains witness to the peril any writer faces when contemplating any critical study of Islam and Arab-Muslim history. It is a peril Fatah has had to contemplate in writing a book of much merit, and then being dismissive of Islamists in Canada who have threatened him for his "moderate" stand taken against them in public.
Fatah provides an insightful reading of how Arab-Muslim history, in casting aside the universalism of Muhammad's message, headed into the dead end of tribal power and conquest out of which morphed the contemporary politics of Islamist chauvinists.

One of the useful distinctions Fatah offers is between a "state of Islam" and an "Islamic state." The former he describes as strivings of an individual for inner spiritual tranquillity that is timeless and universal. The latter he speaks of as the fanatical quest of Islamists to resurrect in the 21st century a political arrangement from the 7th century contrived by Arabs of Muhammad's generation after his demise. The contemporary struggle within Islam is between these two quests, and in their eventual outcome rests peace or war in our time.

CANNOT BE NEUTRAL
Consequently, the West cannot remain neutral in this struggle spanning continents. The great irony is, as Fatah illustrates,

Muslims may acquire a "state of Islam" living in the West while denied such repose wherever the morbid reality of "Islamic state" has been proclaimed as in Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Tarek Fatah has provided an urgent inside view of the struggle consuming the Arab-Muslim world and the future at stake with how it eventually ends. His book deserves to be widely read. END

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Re: # 118 TAHIR:

Your statement says, "..Anybody who insults the Prophet, his wives and Islam will automatically be condemned to hiding somewhere like a rat..."

What do you think of this historic truth written down by a great Hadith collector Al Bukhari? He stated that Prophet Mohammad 'married' Ayesha at the age of six. ( he simply demanded her from her father". Then he consummated at the age of nine.-(other meaning- he humped on her tender age of 9}. Today generation thinks that it is notrhing less than the acts of a pedophile. Just read the historical writing of Bukhari'- the eminent Muslim Chronicler.

Do you think Bukhari be killed like a rat? Or should it be treated as a fact?

Kamath

#114 Posted by tahir,

These 'moderate' and 'modern' Muslims are those whose women chant "Ph***i Ph***i - Ch**t Ch**t" after the recital of Vagina Monologues in Karachi and Lahore, as Ali Pai Upwalla was kind to inform me.

Re: # 110
It is unclear whether Sell-Man Rush-Die is being touted as a 'moderate modern' spokesperson for Muslims...

Anybody who insults the Prophet, his wives and Islam will automatically be condemned to hiding somewhere like a rat.

Once a rat, always a rat, no matter how dazzling the race and what the new citizenship status.