Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State

Re: # 108

"ex-pat muslims" = ex-patriotic Muslims (with a lowercase 'm')

"especially Pakistanis elsewhere" = Where if not HERE???

Re: # 107
Mr. DM,
"he is a moderate muslim....represents modern muslims who want to coexist in a pluralist society...I have not seen him criticise either the Quran or Prophet Mohammad."

Modern Muslim must not mean acting cowardly or foolishly like a slave raised on Canadian Dollars. If they care so much, let them fight it out HERE instead of THERE.

Moderate means 'malleable' to suit western agendas.

And how far North can he go critising the Qur'an or the Prophet?

Regards.

Re: # 105
"The wordplay of his one shair doesn’t equate to maligning or bad mouthing Iqbal. There is nothing wrong in twisting a shair around to have a little fun."

Well, have fun which ever way you like but I've made my point, although you attempted to score your point!

If some Ayatullah hates Iqbal for his anti-mullah utterances, don't be surprised by what a 'robed one' uttered against the Companions burried next to the Prophet!

Of course, people 'have fun' saying things.

Re: # 103
The point you made was understood a while back putting my own two and two together. This wave of nationalism was 'created' no doubt. Now shhh.....quiet please....

But Allah works in subtle ways. What WE label as a 'grave injustice' appears to be turning into a wake-up call for the sleeping giant! His Way takes its own time.

And that is why I too maintain that all 'sirs' have done what they were asked to do!

My point was that a vulgar distortion of a "shay'r" of the poet is plain sillyness on the part of the concerned interactor who once attempted to teach me good manners while defending someone whom Mr. Zee'86'Max totally unclothed for reasons best known to him.

We will leave Allama Iqbal at the foot of the Badshahi Mosque now, to be judged by the Divine Chief Justice.

Regards.

I think someone is here to red flag every single one of Arjun's posts; I would like to protest in the strongest possible words against such practice.

The last few posts had nothing that could be considered offensive even by the most paranoid here.

I hope we all learn the virtue of freedom of speech and have the moral capacity to take in views in complete contradiction to our own; that is called civility and common courtesy which ultimately leads to us calling ourselves civilised.

Thank you

Re: # 102
You do not deserve to be dignified with a response

#103 Posted by masadi on May 24, 2008 12:10:06 pm


where their political strength was broken and the status of this nation reduced to "whore of the West"


dude...jinnah has been dead forever...how can you blame his generation for your predicament...

if you didn't correct your own course, it's your own damn fault...just as it's your damn fault for dancing in the streets when the army overthrows an elected government..

Re: # 109; Dost

Thanks. I get the feeling there is more diversity within the muslims of Canada than what I saw growing up in England. Although there are small elements representative of 'moderate - whatever that is' Islam, majority are deeply residing in their countries (Pakistanis esp) of the 1960s when and where they happenend to have left it.

Outspoken individuals like Irshad Manji, Fatah etc are very hard to come by; if they exist, they don't let it known openly without risking serious repercussions; the Rushdie affair is only one widely known example.

Even here on Chowk it seems to feature repeatedly.

btw; I hate 'multi-culturalism' myself; it allows stupid ideas to survive and continue to flourish especially in a free society.

akcheema#108:

It is a difficult question to answer, but the answer would be a qualified 'yes'. Canadian Muslims are more diverse than the UK or Australian Muslims. We have a sizeable population of Muslims from the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Somalia as well as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but the big difference is a sizable group of French-Speaking Muslims from North Africa. The leadership and spokesmanship seems to be in the hands of Arabs and South Asians, especially Pakistanis.

Most Canadian Muslims seem to be big supporters of the officially encouraged multiculturalism, although increasingly some Canadian voices are being heard for 'harmonisation' to replace multiculturalism, especially in Quebec. Indeed, Muslims became quite aggressive supporters of multiculturalism and started to demand sharia courts for themselves. They almost got them, too, but the London bombings of July 2006 and aggressive campagning against these courts by feminist groups turned the tide of public opinion against such courts. I think that Muslims or any other minority group should not expect any more compromises from the majority group in Canada.

Re: # 107; Dost

Are you able to comment on the muslims as a group in Canada? I always wanted to know if they were any different to ex-pat muslims, especially Pakistanis elsewhere.

Tarek Fatah is a reactionary muslim. He reacts against wahabi islamists who dominate the spokesmanship if Muslim Canadians. He gives voice to those voiceless muslims who do not protest Islamists because of the fear of physical threats or, more likely, fear of social boycot by friends and relatives.

I have not read his book but, from what I have read and heard him, he is a moderate muslim who represents modern muslims who want to coexist in a pluralist society on its own terms. He is unlike Irshad Manji, another bete noir of political islamists, who prides in calling herself a Muslim refusnik. Unlike her, I have not seen him criticise either the Quran or Prophet Mohammad.

#105 Posted by HP,

Oh. Looks like your real ire is over Ms 'G'.

Arey Bhai ... why don't you just take me up on my challenge and e-mail her? That woman is a nymphomaniac after a bit of charas - in case you want to know more. Nothing wrong with that. Kaash mein bhi behti ganga mein haath dho leyta but I thought she was my buddy's girl.

#98 Posted by tahir, #99 Posted by tahir
“What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow. Why must Pakistanis stoop to poking fun at Iqbal of the college days? Learn from the Indians, the Germans and the Iranians who hold Iqbal in great esteem.”
“Nobody can have the same views from childhood until death in advanced age.”

Ret se butt na banaa ai mera achay funkar
Ek Lamhe ko thahr, main tujha patthar laa duon

When he wrote that ‘larkian parrh rahi hain’ shair he already had a Phd. So, there was nothing college-age about that.
The views you develop in you formative years, stay with you. I have not read Iqbal so I will not comment on his philosophy but his life was full of contradictions. He can not be an intellectual stalwart, if he could not sort out what he wanted to pursue. That makes him impressionable and an intellectual dwarf. Please read the shair above and understand that you don’t create idols out of the corporeal. In your lingo, that would be shirk.

Iqbal was an Urdu poet and there is no need for anyone besides the Urdu daan to appreciate him more than what he was. His place as the official philosopher or poet maybe important in Punjab but Sindhi, Bengalis, Pathan, and Baloch wouldn’t hold a brief for him. I have never heard any Indian or German or Iranian praising him for anything. Most of them don’t understand Urdu. A few academicians might like his work but that doesn’t mean all German, Indians, or Iranians liked or loved him.

I would recommend you go to www.iranian.com and post a few of his Persian verses and see the response. He is not a household name in Iran just because one ayatollah wrote a few words abt him, Again, Ret se butt na banaa!

“Miss 'G' cannot be placed higher than Allama Iqbal. There are quite a few here who would agree that your own sense of humour is strange indeed. If someone described the scene, you've descibed the instruments themselves!”

That is your opinion. There is nothing in my post against Iqbal that is comparable to what you wrote abt Ms.Gohar. You are attempting to elevate mockery of a shair to unkind remarks for a living person. The wordplay of his one shair doesn’t equate to maligning or bad mouthing Iqbal. There is nothing wrong in twisting a shair around to have a little fun.


#104 Posted by zeemax
"This person is totally without any ethics or morals."

Wow! Taking over as Internet shoorta? ...The moral police of taliban is stil not hiring.

#98 Posted by tahir,

"Yeh shikayat nahin, hain un ke khazane maamur,
Nahin mehfil mein jinhen baat bhi karne ka shaoor."

I just likened HP to a drameybaaz pony in mela muwaishyan on the other board.

This person is totally without any ethics or morals.

Tahir, I maintain that MAJ's sidekick the Allama was official myth creator to legitimize the farce put into motion by the feudals and colonials invoking the name of Islam and using Muslims as scapegoat to be butchered and be butcherers in the name of religion both during partition and after (due to the event), where their political strength was broken and the status of this nation reduced to "whore of the West" and setting into motion the misuse of religion and "Islam khatray me hei" to undo any and every stride towards social justice for the people by the Pakistan military that got newly incorporated into the establishment thanks to this farce. The Allama was using the name of Islam for fulfilling the West's agenda, a most dispicable misuse of the Quran, for which Allah will judge him.

#95 Posted by izuber on May 23, 2008 9:18:25 pm


True Islamic society is as secular as it gets


umm...either the majority of the world's muslims are not islamic or what you're saying is complete BS..

have you heard of this place called saudi arabia?