Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State

Re: # 99
[What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow.]

Tahir miaN, do you take that fact into consideration while posting those numerous spams?!

Re: # 89
"Thanks for that; now I know exactly who to blame!"

You 'appear' to talk sense and 'pretend' you're intelligent but you'll never see the light by poking fun at the Divine Word.

You must be such a proud little man....

Re: # 86
Mr. HP,

Iqbal's earlier ventures were part of his growing up process. Nobody can have the same views from childhood until death in advanced age.

What you're writing today may make you repent tomorrow. Why must Pakistanis stoop to poking fun at Iqbal of the college days? Learn from the Indians, the Germans and the Iranians who hold Iqbal in great esteem.

Who cares about the knighthood? I've always been suspicious of these labels anyway.

Re: # 81

"I have not read Allah mian Iqbal in details and my knowledge abt his poetry is restricted to a few shairs that I read in some obscure books."
"I do remember that he replaced GH in Ghoray to an 'L' and in the first part he changed Dasht to something...Once you find that word please also find a replacement for Darya and you have an all new shair for some entertainment."

Are you the same person who lectured me earlier about attacking Miss 'G' and then didn't answer when I explained, and now THIS!

Miss 'G' cannot be placed higher than Allama Iqbal. There are quite a few here who would agree that your own sense of humour is strange indeed. If someone described the scene, you've descibed the instruments themselves!

We all look forward to more confessions from the HP-man.

Islamic State?
“……… I have not found a single period that I could in all honesty say I would trade for my 21st-century existence as a Muslim living in a secular democratic society�.
For that matter, why should any body else?
There never was a so called ‘Islamic State’ in history. The five or so officially named Islamic States today are an euphemism for “Religious State� and Islam was never a religion but a code for this complex life.
If at all it is necessary to 'identify' these countries in any way, it would be appropriate to name them Muslim Majority States, for example Muslim Republic of Pakistan or Muslim Republic of Sudan, for that is what they are, peopled by certain 'type' of dogmatic majority.
In terms of universal human values such as equality, dignity, freedom of speech, just to name a few, I would not touch todays Islamic States with a barge pole, now that I have a choice.
But like every thing else, mankind has a habit of ‘transgressing’ the given freedoms--eg exhibiting 11 year old girl’s nude pictures as ART, as in in Australia! Yet there is the freedom to protest against it if squares like me whish to protest.
Therefore, there is some thing to be said about ‘Guided Democracy’! But I hasten to say that this “guidance� however is not to be from any ‘Religion’ professed by the State to dispatch any body to hell by stoning to death.
Rashid

Re: # 85
Their ability to say this is the failure of our people to come up with a proportional level of journalism, it is not "Americans" who say so, it is their press & media.
Now you will ask to make sense here, and it does not take a genius rocket scientist to know that who owns the media in North America for the most part?
Muslims from the sub-continent, middle-east and elsewhere struggle to bring up their off-springs to be a doctor, engineer or scientist while there is nothing wrong with that, but the million dollar question is that if the Muslims don't produce Lawyers, Journalists and Financial Specialists then how do they expect to have their say Legislated, Published or Financed? its worth pondering.
Its time to diversify the upcoming generation in more than medicine and high-tech and participate in other branches of life as well.

True Islamic society is as secular as it gets, secularism does not mean non-existence of a faith system rather it subscribes to equal recognition of all faith based as well as atheist entities while the system of govt. does not impose a faith based value system.
Imposing one’s values on another is not what Islam seeks or propagates, but, like any other system of discipline Islam has its own code of ethics, like decency is observed in USA and if one is found flashing in nude it is prosecutable and punishable under the local laws, carrying open containers of alcohol in public places is restricted by law in majority of jurisdictions, the recent laws concerning lighting or carrying lighted tobacco or smoking is now restricted in major parts of USA, while the Islamic system of governing is applicable to jurisdictions having adopted it to be the rule of the land.
Similarly Islam prescribes certain discipline and code of ethics in a jurisdiction ruled by such laws, while Islam also prescribes that one must abide by the local regulations and the laws of a jurisdiction which is adopted for residence or to conduct business, and, if one finds such regulations to be intolerable or unacceptable they should consider relocating to a jurisdiction where they do not have to face such a hardship its plain and simple and it is an individual’s own choice as to what their preferences are but they can chose either and not both.
As stated in the holy scripture “there is no compulsion in religion� which is self explanatory in all regards and clarifies that when it comes to religion(faith) it is one’s own decision and determination as to what they wish to adopt, practice or follow.
Taking this into account regardless of all that goes on in the non-Islamic USA and Canada they provide the most suitable environment for any faith to flourish and its followers to practice and observe freely.
The rhetoric that is used by the various non-scholarly scholars nowadays appears to contrast the true spirit of Islam as their teachings imply that no one other than those who follow Islam can exist in today’s world, this is a less than literate approach and does no to favor Islam or Muslims as this spreads nothing but a great amount of speculation and hatred by those who envision that Islam and Muslims trying to enforce their value system on those who do not wish to follow Islam, while under the true spirits of Islam this is not what Jihad means or is about, Jihad is one’s ability to exist anywhere in the world under any system and yet assure that they follow the teachings and values of their faith by observing it themselves not by taunting at others or imposing their values on those who are not in the following.
Propagation of Islam has nothing to do with enforcing the values system, if the Muslims of today’s world make themselves presentable to the world in the manner they are expected to by following the prescribed discipline, that will present to the non-Muslims a better picture to explore further which is subject to humanly approach.
While I find North America to be quite accommodating when it comes for one to practice and observe their faith.

re: arjun

London, canada, america...

There too, it is a fight for national recognition.

Nanga pir is highlighting that Muslims in all these countries (and in many other countries yet to be mentioned) are a separate nation.

#85 Posted by NangaPir on May 23, 2008 2:34:26 pm


Whereas all these above fights are for national recognization.


what about the muslims blowing stuff up in london? or planning terrorist attacks in canada...or america?

how many suicide bombs went off against saddam or his army? maybe that's the way to go....

Re: # 86; HP

what you write makes sense (most of the time - clearly one must never say always!)

I am sorry for my part in the misunderstanding between us before

Cheers

Re: # 90

P.S.: these are the same answers I have had from so-called authorities on the subject

as for the question of an average chowkie not having the time....give me a break man.....they seem to be here 24/7 some of them....especially the loud ones......clearly not much happening for them elsewhere in life

Re: # 88; TehsinA sahib
" am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries."

au contraire sir, I have had all the answers I needed out of this but thank you for your input anyway

Re: # 80; Zeemax
"if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!"

Thanks for that; now I know exactly who to blame!

#18 Posted by akcheema

“I wish someone could elaborate here what Iqbal's message exactly is; what his 'philosophy - if it can be called that' is and whether it is really something new that hadn't been said before�

I am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries. Most of us here do not have the time to go and research or have done scholarly work to do justice to questions that you are posing. Answers you get are either conjectures based upon anecdotal information or parroting considered opinions of others. People who are engaged in fundamental research cannot sit on Chowk as they are too busy peeling the onion. If you are interested in that, then form or join a study group, divide up responsibilities and come up with definitive conclusions that could be shared in article form on Chowk.

#85 Posted by NangaPir

That is something Chomsky covered in one of his articles. Perhaps you can read that on his site. There is whole lot more to it than just this.

Like the world is happy that Sadam is no more...
The bottom line is the the world means the WEST and the rest of the chumps are just chumps.

From Suchgup:

Kar lo jo karna hai!

I think Iqbal was a 'go with the flow' type of character. He just couldn't stick to one thing. From Communism to Fascism and Islam to Secularism and from Hindustan to Pakistan, he moved the goal posts in his poetry so quickly and so abruptly that pinning him to one ideology is hard.

Now read this shair:

Larkian Parrh Rahi Hain Angerazi
Dondh li Qoom nay Falah ki Raah

He probably wrote that in 1919 or 1920 but we can see his rather conservative views on women education.

I also read his correspondence with British viceroys and GGs where he practically begged for the British recognition and was so proud when he was made a knight w/o any land in England.

This is funny how in Indian Muslim political life these unsavory characters gained prominence just because they loved the British and the colonial rule. Not to say that the Congress leaders were not gora goochattar but at least they were good at hypocrisy.

After sixty years of independence both countries are still ruled by gora goochatters. With the same characteristics. Indians leaders are masters of Hypocrisy and Pakistanis just blatantly lick it in full public view.

Some things never change!