Fatima Bhutto Fighting for Justice

Re: # 228

First of all Kasturba did not die of mosquito bites nor did Gandhi. Kasturba died because Gandhi would not allow the medicine which he allowed on himself later.

I have never heard of this... but Mosquitos are rampant in open areas in the subcontinent even today. Aga Khan's Palace was a luxury palace with acres of land around it. And Gandhi perhaps did have a desi remedy of mosquitos which did not work.

So it must have been a British conspiracy to put Gandhi in the Aga Khan's palace so that he could contract Malaria.

#224 Posted by MantoLives on May 23, 2008 6:21:01 am

so how's the movement to change his name from the frontier gandhi to the frontier jinnah going?

MiaN Urstruly has seen the wisdom of quitting before somebody humiliates him because of his indefensible position of disadvantage!

I think he is one step ahead of Mantolives.

Also to date neither BJkumar nor other Gandhi champoos have produced a single "I am sorry I was wrong about Black people" quote from Gandhi the racist bigot.

They have produced patronizing nonsense but not even a single apology or admission of guilt.

Seems like racism stuck with Gandhi till late in his life.

Manto and others are making much of the fact that Kasturba did not die from malaria while ignoring the simple fact that the place called Aga Khan "Palace" was a breeding-ground for malaria which many contracted, including Gandhiji.

The bottomline is - you can not call such a place a "luxury" place to live.

Except when you wish to be dishonest!

BTW... I was not aware that 1908 (Gandhi age 39), 1911 (Gandhi age 42), 1927 (Gandhi age 58) and 1922 (Gandhi age 53) are all pre-1906 era... In 1906 Gandhi was 37 mind you.

Re: # 225

Yawn.

I am not even going to compare someone as disgusting as Gandhi with Jinnah (who to date is the only politician in South Asia to be called the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity- whether you like it or not).

And Gandhi was an exclusivist racist bigot.

Manto mian,

Yaaaawnnn...

You are back to your old cut-n-paste routine from 1906 and prior times. This has been covered countless times on this site.

Gandhiji was an evolving personality. Unlike Jinnah, he had an open mind which kept learning and growing over time. The Gandhiji of the 1920's was not the Gandhiji of 1905 in South Africa, nor the Gandhiji of the 1930's and later.

Jinnah was a shallow individual who was incapable of freeing his mindset outside of the shikanz of "Mussalmans are exclusive and 'better' than Hindus" mindset - like many Pakistani chowkies still do right here!

In defence of Jinnah, all one can say was that he was a product of a time when every country accepted racism as the norm. The Britishers were no exceptions, the Amrikkans were no exception, the Germans were no exception. Gandhiji was simply ahead of the times in some of these ideas.

Jinnah was perhaps a good lawyer but he was certainly no visionary! Unfortunately, for that very simple deficiency, too many Pakistanis have paid a very heavy price!

Re: # 223

No. Bacha Khan was a genuine guy who was deceived by Gandhi ... whatever our disagreements with him, he has his place in the hearts of Pathans and even Pakistanis.

#219 Posted by MantoLives on May 23, 2008 6:11:00 am

If gandhi was a racist casteist fascist bigot, does this mean the frontier gandhi was the racist fascist casteist bigot on the frontier?

Re: # 217

I am acting on my own advice to Mantolive. May Gandhi and QA both rest in peace.

BTW... any comments about your lie that mosquitos killed Kasturba and not Gandhi's insistence against penicilin.

(Ironically Gandhi allowed the administration of modern medicine on himself- what a piece of work).

I notice that Jum dada is back to his usual mischievous trouble-making!

Urstruly,

The Cabinet Mission Plan that Jinnah accepted did not even give parity to Muslims. Not by a long shot.


bjkumar,

Your latest lie had me come back.

The South African Apartheid was close to Gandhi's heart. Gandhi was the racist casteist Hindu fascist Bigot ... who mirrored South African Apartheid.
Below mentioned shows that Gandhi was a racist bigot:

On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure.
We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of
the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all
the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer
leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same
level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one
that was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for
which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we
would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was,
perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now
be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and
manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives.
The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It
did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced
reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given
special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us
beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners
throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native
prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often
created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that
we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for
hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not
being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with
the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians
had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof
that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It
was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the
Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits.
...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple
imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the
Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the
Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is
rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts
even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like
animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often
started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily
imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that
Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived
at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three,
all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other
offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I
reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should
be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians
were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being
that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a
matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs,
but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between
them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to
sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is
very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is
another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and
respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to
have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it
is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly
and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be
pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured
person' on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But
British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their
position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them.
The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the
Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the
aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in
the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be
disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate
themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration
of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will
be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives
of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and
that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to
work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour
is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the
Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle
compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and
so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode
of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an
indefinite length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion'
in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind
that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol.
3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no
political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant
race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are
now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade,
to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save
the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"

...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as
the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically
unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than
any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into
the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03,
CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be
chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my
comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council
must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of
Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled,
indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is
because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division
is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to
possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each
caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of
the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate
for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by
electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of
the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by
requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war
in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of
nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we
get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we
perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also
the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to
love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women
are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor
will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The
caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow
interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on
enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in
pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste
restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system
means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation
which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an
eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use
for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a
chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a
Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has
been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood
the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition
and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system
the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my
views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste
system.

Beej bhaiyya,

(It was the misfortune of the vast number of Mussalmans of the subcontinent)

He gave 70% of the Muslims of subcontinent a nation they could run according to their world view. Sure, they have not made a great job of that, as yet. But that is not the fault of MAJ (pbuh).

Regards

Re: # 213

MiaN Urstruly, in addition to being a fundamentalist, you are also a VERY dishonest fellow. The record is very clear that Gandhiji cared just as much for the Mussalmans (and others) as he did for the Hindus - a simple fact which in the end costed him his life!

It was the misfortune of the vast number of Mussalmans of the subcontinent who followed the Jinnah's message of hate and exclusivity instead of Gandhiji's message of brotherhood and the equality of all insaans. I personally believe they did so because many were illiterate who followed their dishonest "leaders" who - in their heart - like you, made a distinction among Mussalmaans and non-Mussalmans in a way similar to the White people (from those days) used to make between Whites and non-Whites all over the world.

Pakistan was the ultimate culmination of Mussalman apartheid!

And just like White apartheid, it was based on outdated ideas of superiority of one "people" over another!

I am sure that had Jinnah been alive, having observed what happened in South Africa and other places, he would be kicking himself every morning while exclaiming...

"What a stupid, stupid, stupid thing I did!"

But he is no more alive - instead he burns in hell!