Fatima Bhutto Fighting for Justice

Granted the family she comes from falls under a massive legacy and theres hardly any escaping it, but I really dont think she is worth all the hype.

Whatever I've read read of hers or any telly interviews just seem fruitless attempts and go round in circles and dont quite 'get nowhere'. Maybe its because she's young and has far to go? But 19 yr old Bilawal has proved more articulate and fiesty than her.

Mr Dalrymple (Bill I suppose):

Thanks for another excellent article on Pakistan. As for Fatima it is sad that see has seen so much turmoil in her country and her family. I hope she breaks the Bhutto mold by learning the value of humility.

Ejaz

Re: # 356
Cheema sahib your assertion about falsified claims is quite true there was a lot of wheeling and dealing that took place.

On UP, Sadna quotes Rafiq Zakaria who spoke to A.V.Alexander, one of the members of the Cabinet Mission

[Jinnah stood his ground and asserted : 'Fear is the most potent weapon; I am sure the rulers in either state will be wise enough to conduct themselves properly. They will be afraid of retaliation against their co-religionists.']

The telling confession of the subcontinent’s first Islamic terrorist – and his worship of fear as a weapon!

Re: # 354; by zeemax
"I don't think that is true in case of Pakistan. All claims were thoroughly verified before formal transfers."

As I have said before, a big chunk of my family never made it across the border. However, that didn't stop a maternal grand-uncle to put in claims etc...he was already on the 'right' side of the border and well established as a businessman.....looked down upon for a short while but then all was normal....his kids inherited a fortune when he died and it wasn't all due to 'hard work'....I can quote several other examples from within and outside the family

zee:

How could they be verified without a joint indo-pak mechanism to do so? As far as I am aware, no such mechanism was operationalised. But if there was such a mechanism and it worked, then I take back what I said.

#353 Posted by dost_mittar,

I don't think that is true in case of Pakistan. All claims were thoroughly verified before formal transfers.

zeemax#352:

"I have close family friends from Lucknow, who could only get their claim in Mianwali, though a substantial one, where no one speaks Urdu ... let alone the Lucknavi variety."

I dont know about the particular family but some of these families made bogus claims, as their properties in India were in the hands of their brothers left behind in India and were not evaquee properties. Since there was no mechanism for verifying claims, all claims were accepted as submitted. The same happened in India where some people submitted exaggerated claims and others did not.

#332 Posted by dost_mittar,

It was a huge mess, but as per you say the Muslim immigrants got a better deal, though there were huge cultural shocks. I have close family friends from Lucknow, who could only get their claim in Mianwali, though a substantial one, where no one speaks Urdu ... let alone the Lucknavi variety.

They are still there though, They came to love Mianwali!

Re: # 334

Madan Lal Pahwa to self,

Vikhane chande si Hindu Smaj marya hanin.

Wanted to show Hindu Samaj is not dead

Re: # 322 "This will never happen. There has never been one person in the history who changed the face of a country. That happens with a process and support from many others. If thats what you are waiting for, maybe you wanna Google 'Waiting for Godot'."

HP I think that could be a pathetic excuse for all the charlatans from the who's who of our rogues gallery that have ruled us so far...the least any great leader could do is to put his people on the right path, instead of devoting all his time and energy to loot, plunder and personal aggrandizement as one after the other all of our chosen and unchosen leaders have been doing so far. After they all get booted out one way or another, then they come out with the sort of lame excuses like "process" and "support" that you have put forth. After all who puts the processes into motion? And how much more support do they really need?

Or can it be rephrased as something like this. Reservation policy has managed to successfully obliterate the pride associated with calling oneself an upper caste Hindu...

Sita Ram Goel famous author please see Voice of Dharma www.bharatvani.org

Ahutosh Lahiri was the head of the Delhi unit of the Hindu Mahasabha the only leader who defied Gandhi's call for peace when he fasted to death to save Muslimsin Delhi was amongst those nearly killed in the post gandhi riots organised by the congress

Dr Moonje was the Maharashtra head of the HM

Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji) was the Punjab head of the HM

Sanatani

Sanatani,

You should be happy right...the UCs of TN have managed to masquerade as OBCs and still maintain the status quo.

Sanatani,

Who is SitaRamji?

Regards

Re: # 324

Well Masan bhai,

in that case I apologise.

But if not you then it is lot of people other than you.

Upper Caste: Bhen Maa Beti in salon ko reservation choorhe chamar bhangi

SC: Bhen Maa Beti in salon ne oppresiion ki yeh hai asli choorhe chamar bhangi

OBC: Actually we have been unfairly oppressed by UC's unki Bhen Maa Beti and we rightly oppress SC's choorhe chamar bhangi

Actually OBC's are best

as in Backward Rajput, Backward Baniya, Backward Maratha, Backward Sindhi (only found in Sindh if the Sindhi Muslims were told Amils and Bhaibands are backward in Tamil Nadu they would all collectively die of shock or lose their mental balance AND thus achieve Jinnahpur) e.g. Rakesh Hinduja becomes Asst Jail warden under OBC quota or Raheja or Hiranandani.

That was the very good thing about the RSS where all Hindus were equal where mutual respect for each other was taught to all castes.

But somehow their anti intellectualism or what SitaRam ji used to term as the opposite of Baudhik Kshatriyata.

I think Sun Tzu and Arthshastra should be serious reading for them.

Sanatani

Re: # 342

Zeena,

I read your post. In that case, we are both in it together.

Thumbs up to you and Good Luck

We'll keep trying to do our bit on the "inside" as it were

and Khuda Hafiz to you to

#341 by majumdar

Mosquitoes breed wherever there is greenry and water, so I dont see why they could not have bred in AKP.

The presence (or the lack thereof) of mosquitoes is more dependent on the maintenance and less on greenery and water. Majumdar bhai, when you're in Hyderabad the next time, I'll take you to some eateries on the Necklace Road by the Hussain Sagar lake, one of the filthiest water bodies I've ever seen. You will be surprised.

Re:[[I respect you simply for your love for the country that you voluntarily left that still haunts your imagination. At least that is something we have in common.]]

Re:#330 pakistan3
No Sir that doesn't haunt me at all, because I didn't commit any crime. Rather that is the pride that I take because God has given me a chance to explore this world and to spread Pakistan's image infront of others in a positive way.

Ask those who feel NO Shame by living in Pakistan and looting poor Pakistanis money and sucking their blood with no guilt...........

Yes, those corrupt Politicians and army generals are real leaches living in Pakistan and scucking the last drop of poors.....

I am proud to live abroad that has made me a strong person mentally to combat all this nonsense that's going on in current Pakistan.....I can see clearly what you're unable to see.

But, let me borrow you my eyes and heart and then you'll be able to see what your eyes with bias are unable to see and you'll be able to feel what your stoned heart with darkness is unable to feel.
bye and Khuda Hafiz

Harishbhai,

Mosquitoes breed wherever there is greenry and water, so I dont see why they could not have bred in AKP.

Regards

#338 by majumdar

'Cos she was denied penicillin by MKG, not by the Brits.

Majumdar bhai, please stop mixing up issues. MKG's penchant for nature cure is a whole different story, perhaps for another occasion.

I have twice contracted malaria myself although I have never lived in slums (or Aga Khan's palace for that matter).

If your home was anywhere comparable to the AKP as per Yasser's (and your own) claim, perhaps you wouldn't have contracted it.

Arjun mian,

Had Godse not whacked the G-man, maybe the movie never would have got started!!!

Regards

Harishbhai,

(The fact that his wife died)

'Cos she was denied penicillin by MKG, not by the Brits.

(afflicted with malaria (a disease more likely to inflict those living in filthy slums)

I have twice contracted malaria myself although I have never lived in slums (or Aga Khan's palace for that matter).

Regards

he he he...

18,500 Pakistanis deprived of billions


NEW DELHI, May 25: About 18,560 Pakistanis have been deprived of billions of rupees accumulated on returns of shares in Indian firms they had bought before 1965.

India seized the shares bought by Pakistanis in 558 Indian companies after the 1965 war. These shares are lying with the Office of Custodians of Enemy Properties under the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs following a notification issued by the government in 1968.

The Indian government is undecided about the fate of these shares.

Media reports, citing the record of the department, said that the capitalised amount of five shareholders in Indian companies was about Rs109.6 billion. These companies are the high-profile Indian entities such as Wipro, Cipla, five companies of the Tata group, ACC and three companies of the DCM group.

Similarly, two Pakistani stakeholders have 10 million shares of Wipro, the world’s largest independent R&D services provider, valued at about Rs50.4 billion. Thirty-four Pakistanis have shares in pharmaceutical major Cipla worth Rs48.2 billion.

In four companies of Tata Motors, Tata Power, Tata Steel, Tata Chemicals and Tata Coffee, Pakistanis have shares worth Rs48 million.

Pakistanis invested in Indian companies including Hindustan Unilever, ITC DLF, Bajaj Electricals, CSCE, Reliance energies, EIH, Aditya Birla, Nuvo, India Cement, Dalmia Cement and Ballarpur Industries before 1965.

According to an assessment of the custodian office, the value of the shares owned by Pakistanis in the listed 45 Indian companies is Rs18 billion.

Indian newspaper the Economic Times contested the figures of the custodian department and said that Pakistanis had far more shares in the companies than revealed by the department.

The custodians have recorded 1.6 million Pakistani shares in Wipro. But, the company sources say there are 10 million Pakistani shares.

Similarly, there are 23 million shares of Pakistanis in Cipla, but the department has recorded only 1.1 million shares, the paper said.—APP

i?
the foolish act of assasinating him.


foolish why? I think it was a good thing..if godse hadn't whacked gandhi, the most fucking boring movie in the world would never have ended...

#252 by MantoLives

And mind you ... I only came in after Harish mian claimed that he had never heard of Aga Khan's palace being the place of Gandhi's incarceration which it certainly was.

Yasser mian, now your dishonesty is really shining through. First of all, I did not claim that Gandhi was never imprisoned at the Aga Khan palace. After all the debates we've had through the years where you made it a point to highlight this particular episode, it would be foolish of me to deny it outright. It is your own inadequate comprehension skills that you thought so. I was merely contesting your assumption that Gandhi by virtue of having been incarcerated there was treated like the Aga Khan himself would be. The fact that his wife died of and he himself was afflicted with malaria (a disease more likely to inflict those living in filthy slums) there belies your claim that he was accorded 5-star treatment there.

The bottom line is that you have been called on your claim that Gandhi was only imprisoned twice. The biggest and perhaps the unkindest slap would be the total refutation with proof of your claim that Gandhi was treated like a king at the AKP.

DM sahib,

(Why did he not go on a hunger strike at Rawalpindi) & ( but he certainly knew when his weapon of "maun-vrat" would work)

Had he tried the stunt in Pindi, the good Pindians would have put him on a permanent maun vrat.

(led one of them to the foolish act of assasinating him.)

Right. The assassination was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.

Regards

Re#331:

I meant "marn vrat", not maun vrat.

zeemax#328:

"Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle."

Yes, there was, but it was merely an allocation of the evaquee property left by the Muslims, which was of much lower value than the property left by the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan, both West and East. There was no transfer of the net balance from Pakistan to India. This is why the Hindus and Sikhs got only a fraction of what they left in Pakistan and your grandparents got a grand kothi in Lahore.


"And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else."

Yes, they did hand over (I think the sum was Rs. 55 crores)Pakistan's share of the assets after Gandhi went on a hunger strike in support of Pakistan. This was, in fact, the final straw that broke the Hindu patience with him and led one of them to the foolish act of assasinating him.

bjkumar#326:

You did not address the questions that I had asked:
_Why did Gandhi not go on a hunger strike to prevent Muslim support for Pakistan, a stunt he was ready to perform at the drop of anyone's topee?

-Why did he not go on a hunger strike at Rawalpindi in March 1947 when the butchery in Punjab started (against Sikhs in particular) or Lahore later, but did so in Calcutta in August/September?

I did not say that he was dishonest, but he certainly knew when his weapon of "maun-vrat" would work and when it won't.

You asked:

"Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!"

Because he spoke their language: Ram Rajya and his (false?) claim to follow the Bhagwat Geeta and his daily prarthanas at the Birla house.

Re: # 327

Zeena,

If I remember correctly, last time I addressed you as 'behen ji'.

You don't know anything about me, what I do and how might I think I contribute positively to our beloved country so please don't go there.

As for my nic/name, with all due respect, many here do the same. Have you extended your opinion to nics like Zeemax, Golgfinger, HP and many others? So why pick on me?

I respect you simply for your love for the country that you voluntarily left that still haunts your imagination. At least that is something we have in common.

Regards

... it took more than a decade to finally settle but possession was given almost immediately. Formal transfers took the time mentioned.

My own grandparents clan got a huge kothi of about two acres on prime property right opposite Ganga Ram Hospital on Mozang Road, in exchange for their Amritsar property. It is now split up and turned into office towers.

#323 Posted by dost_mittar,

and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

Wasn't there the Evacuee Property distribution to immigrants in India? There was one in Pakistan and quite a fair one though it took more than a decade to finally settle.

And did India hand over any State assets as share to Pakistan? To my knowledge Pakistan just got whatever was on its soil and nothing else. I believe there are still hundreds of millions of outstanding Rupee claims on India in Pakistan books for non-transferred funds.

#293 Posted by pakistan3
pakistan3
Whoever you're. I never apply self righteous attitude for myself. This is the word I used for you in my prior posts. And now you're tunring the tables for me by using the same lingo for me...Wonderful, WoW...

You are the one who initiated all this with me for no reason , no reason at all.

Why is it a crime in your eyes to live over seas? Why you have a disturbed attitude and behavior for overseas Pakistanis? Why in every other post of your's you are just pathetically belittling over seas Pakistanis?

Did any over sea Pakistani step on your tail? or did anyone of them kick your raw nerve? or did anyone of them kick your arse?

That's the main reason you're badly bruised..

Anyway, do you know? or do you have any idea? that majority of Pakistanis families are being dependent on their over seas surrogates..........for their financial needs..

Do you know? How much currency is being generated by those over seas Pakistanis inside Pakistan daily? that they seem to be an asset to Pakistan....

But, you and your stunted mind growth doesn't let you see all this...

Anyway, whatever I do for Pakistan, I don't owe you my explainations for all your idiotic rantings.
And please, don't mention my services for my country, Pakistan. You're surely NOT the one that I wish to serve based on your nationality...you're typical fanatic person who should get out of Pakistan, if, Pakistan needs to progress. Your mind set is just a destruction for Pakistan and a set back.....

My burn centers and other services doen't need to be mentioned here on Front Page....It is you who started this nonsense out of your own insanity and craziness.

It is you who in your own airheadedness are just backlashing poor and hard working Pakistanis who are those poor people from different villages and from cities working hard day and night to provide basic needs for their families back home....And here you're insultin them in every post of your's.

How much more shameless you could be?

If you have some issues with over seas Pakistani, try not to take it on everyone here by your senseless and pathetic self righteous rantings.....

Enough, I am not going to respond to your pathetic insults anymore.............

Re: # 323

DM-jee, I respect your age and stuff. However, I am aware that you, like Sanatani, were directly affected by the tragedy of the Partition - like countless other individuals on both sides of the border, including the Dr. Gill. Therefore, it is virtually impossible for any of you (in my view) to make an objective evaluation of Gandhiji - who many victims of the Partition blamed for "pampering Muslims" - as the term went.

Gandhiji was many things to many people - but one thing he was not was - he was not a dishonest person. I have especially resented the attempt on the part of some on this site to present him as such a person. I have every reason to believe that such individuals are either dishonest themselves or have their own compulsions for doing so.

In case it is necessary to explain, let me tell you that "over my dead body!" is a rhetorical phrase and is not to be taken literally! Please also keep in mind that at the time you were a child yourself and therefore highly susceptible to views expressed to you by other people who were even less objective.

I agree that the support for Gandhiji among the Indian Muslims of the 1920's - 1930's was lukewarm at best. However, that for the Muslim League was not much better - it was just as lukewarm. Things changed in the aftermath of the Congress Rule of several states after the sweeping victories in 1936-37 elections. The massive use of the spoils system by the Congressmen scared off many Mussulmans (who were apprehensive to begin with) and sent them into Jinnah's camp. Many Muslim grievances were exaggerated but the complainants feared (wrongly) they were witnessing a Hindu Raj being created. I personally see an analogy with how the South African whites had felt (a few decades later) when the black South Africans were ready to assume power. Jinnah was of course very obliging in building up that apprehension. When that racist Churchil came to power, he had not the slightest hesitation in taking advantage of the Hindu-Muslim divide - because his objective was to prolong the Raj as much as possible. Along with the Jinnah, the numerous "Princes" and small royalties were also VERY willing to collaborate with the Britishers for their own selfish interests.

Every one of those entities watched out for their own narrow, selfish interests (Jinnah most of all!)...

Except for Gandhiji! He tried to help every insaan and he put his own neck on line in the process.

Also, BTW, let me ask you what I asked Sanatani - to which he was unable to provide an answer.

Even if we assume that by following Gandhiji, the Indian Hindus came out a cropper - well, WHY did they follow him anyway?!

Was he holding a gun to their heads?

#316 Posted by Sanatani on May 24, 2008 6:52:04 am


Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.


yeah...props to that godse dude...

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Sanatani:

I agree with a lot of things you say. But I think you are mistaken if you are referring to me in the above comment.

bjkumar:

Sorry to butt in but I think that your worship of Mahatma Gandhi is over done. Gandhi had said that India would be divided over his dead body. So, why was his body is one piece when the country was divided? This is because he knew that his techniques of bullying people through coercive "hunger-strikes" would work on the Hindu mind and maybe even on the British but not on Jinnah or Muslims. This is why he never went on a hunger strike to ask Jinnah or Muslims to give up the demand for Pakistan; this is why he went to Calcutta to stop Hindus from pushing out Muslims while the real carnage was taking place in Lahore; and this is why he went on a strike to force Indian govt. to give Pakistan its share of the assets without linking it with the balancing of private assets left by Hindu-Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

#321 Posted by Goldfinger
"If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader , whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now"

This will never happen. There has never been one person in the history who changed the face of a country. That happens with a process and support from many others. If thats what you are waiting for, maybe you wanna Google 'Waiting for Godot'.

Re: # 289

HP

I quite agree with your post. I really do not wish to knock any one down, however it seems quite absurd to me that some people get infatuated with one political figure or another in our history due to every one's desperate search to find a hero when none has appeared so far. Thats all. If we had had even one merely decent human being for a leader (leave alone a scimitar brandishing chest thumping superman), whether a politician or dictator, and if he had really meant doing well by the people, things could very easily have been different now, and everything would not be spiraling down into the abyss the way it is. Unfortunately all our wanna be heroes have been more of the ilk of Bonnie and Clyde and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid then anything else.

for some of these achievements not to go to his head

p.s for anyone who might get the impression that I am "obsessed" with a politician, the obsession is not with the person but given the political structure of this nation, what one person was able to achieve, it was an achievement of enormous proportions, not a work complete or 100%- only a fool would think in that "all or none" fashion- and as HP implies fools abound in our nation regarding the political and the power structure- given the rudimentary nature of our institutions, the guy was "a nation" all by himself, now he was no saint in the Abrahamic tradition for some of these achievements to go to his head, but those flaws are microscopic compared to what he achieved for this nation, the seed of democracy and the voice of the people in the equation of power, were his doing. When the shaitan and his minions in the Pakistan Army can clench their fists and threaten the people and their representatives, why should not the people's rep tell them to go F off, only to be labelled a meglomaniac? This guy goldfinger has a personal grudge against him because of political difference, his is a military supporter or a supporter of one of their propped up "political parties"

goldfinger writes "Along with jetsetted the world try also the rather more interesting pastimes of hypocrisy, megalomania, misrule, planning to murder political foes, destruction of economy and consorting to have the nation split apart and civil war...."

Not only did I answer your ad hominem bs in the multiple posts from the past, the only "smoke" that exists in these discussions are you smoky morals that ignore what that person achieved for this nation and picks on his personal flaws based on your preceived "values". Judging a leader by the mullah standard you want him to personify the shariah before implementing it, that is not how justice and law work, personal flaws are no reason why social justice should be ignored as "hypocrisy", the civil war was the doing not of ZAB but the Pakistan Army and without the constitution that he gave us all talk of nation and democracy would be futile. The damage he caused to military rule that continued till his death, the peacemaking with the neighbours, the extraction of the nation from a whore of the West status, incorporating the people into the power equation, and his ability to move the masses and turn the discourse away from "Islam khatray me hai" towards social issues, taking Pakistan from a beggar status to one of leadership in the third world, just ONE of these is enough to overshadow all of his jetsetting and designer suits and other flaws. You pick on the person and not on what he did for this nation regarding the rights of the people and democracy. Now when you see the condition of this "neo liberal" economy and still blame him for destroying it via a totally opposite route, tells me that you are the damn hypocrite. Answer these arguments instead of attacking his person like a goddamned mullah...

Re: # 316

[Because of vermin like you and your ilk. Self haters and back stabbers all.

Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.

Because the Sardar loved Gandhi more than he loved the country.

Because Harimau Iyer will never see beyond reservations and attempt Hindu Dharam Asmita.

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Because all hindus who otherwise behave as Bhangis have this strange notion of caste superiority.]

Sanatani my dear, with so many hurdles present already to the process of building what would be a "Hindu Pakistan", why do you single out the Mahatma Gandhi as the cause of your catastrophe?

If Hindus lack a "vision", is that Gandhiji's fault? He did give us a vision - only it was ABOVE the vision of Hindu unity that you appear to seek - it was the vision of uniting mankind. Jinnah had the narrower vision. Therefore, it failed. You wanted Gandhiji to descend to the level of a Hindu Jinnah. That is impossible because that is not what he was about. And by some magic, if that WERE possible, I assure you he would have failed like the Jinnah did.

If you got what you call "vermins and self-haters" shouldn't you be focussing on them rather than beating up on Gandhiji?

How do those "vermins and self-haters" get empowered? Aren't those elected by the masses? Do you even believe in a democratic setup?

My dear, you need to sort your own thoughts through before you go about on that spree of mouthing foolishness about Gandhiji.

Re: # 310

Because of vermin like you and your ilk. Self haters and back stabbers all.

Because Shri Godse thought strategically and not tactically.

Because the Sardar loved Gandhi more than he loved the country.

Because Harimau Iyer will never see beyond reservations and attempt Hindu Dharam Asmita.

Because Masanmuthu will not see beyond Harimau's casteist abuse as the rantings of an extremely marginalised and now oppressed caste and see OBC cruelty as an expression of Sanatan Dharam.

Because all hindus who otherwise behave as Bhangis have this strange notion of caste superiority.

Sanatani

Re: # 309

Ashutosh Lahiri and Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee and to about 50% Veer Savarkar, Dr Moonje and Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji). I would include Babaseaheb except he was opposed to Hindu Dharam and Not Hindu Samaj and the Sanatan Dharam.

Our gr8tst leaders came from East Begal now we get Jhothi Basu and Phuddudeb.

Sanatani

Re: # 309

Ashutosh Lahiri and Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee and to about 50% Veer Savarkar, Dr Moonje and Raja Narendra Nath (Bhaiji). I would include Babaseaheb except he was opposed to Hindu Dharam and Not Hindu Samaj and the Sanatan Dharam.

Our gr8tst leaders came from East Begal now we get Jhothi Basu and Phuddudeb.

Sanatani

Re: # 307

That is again a lie. Not J but his gang were clear that they wanted a Pak well clear of kaffirs and they achieved that. But it was your champion the Mahatma without an atma who ensured that the Hindus were left at the mercy of the Muslims in Pakistan after saying "Partition over my dead body"

The reason the Muslims stayed back was that there was no concerted effort to deport them the way it happened in Pak.

It was Hindu pullisamnity and Sikh ferocity that forced Muslai out of East Punjab.

Given a free hand the Sardars would have made a horrible example out of all other Muslims in India.

If we had a leader like Narendra Bhai then all this would not have happened.

What you are saying about his popularity is true buit in 1947 he was a failed messiah and that Godse's blunder in killing him allowed his acolytes to refurbish him as a sort of an avtar, more on that later.

But I shall give you a hint. The Hindus stoopid fkng belief in all religions being equal that applies to murderous political ideologies like chritianity and Islam. Notice the number of hindus who will go to pir ke mazaar and light candles in churches.

Sanatani

BJ,

Sanatani is right. Islam is totally different from what you perceive it to be, and a real problem for you. Fight it as Sanatani suggests. He is on the dot. Sanatani is my best friend and my best enemy because of this reason that he knows what he's up against. You don't!

#304 Posted by bjkumar,

I am not a Mullah. Guess you missed the posts where I said I'm not even a pious person to the farthest of your imaginations.

You're totally off-track BJ.

Re: # 308

[But could not muster the courage to take it to a logical conclusion.]

Why not?!

Re: # 308

[People like you are a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata.]

Sanatani my dear, can you name ANY Indian leaders whom you would consider as "not a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata"?!

Re: # 217

You are an intelectually dishonest person.

That message of Mussalman apartheid is from the koran.

The problem is not Muslai it is Islam.

We are all better off with what happened due to Mr Jinnah But could not muster the courage to take it to a logical conclusion.

There is no bortherhood of muslai and non-muslai there are only momin and kaffir.

But you will never accpet it even when it stares you on the face. West Punjab, East Bengal, Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP.

Now we will lose Bengal and North East to Bangladesh and fkrs like you will say "It is all because of Hindu Communalism".

That is why we say we will lose not because we cannot defeat the muslai but because you will stab us in the back.

People like you are a curse to the Sanatan Dharam, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata.

I do not know about Shri J but I do hope you do rot in hell.

Sanatani

Re: # 303

Sanatani my dear,

Let's leave aside Gandhiji's unorthodox experiments for cures to physical ailments and his brahamcharya! Those were not the characteristics which made him popular among the masses.

Face it, my dear, it is not Gandhiji you are truly upset at. You are really upset at the Indian masses - the vast droves of ordinary Hindus - who connected with him and who followed him IN SPITE of his unorthodox views on side issues.

What is YOUR explanation for it, sir?! Do you have any special insight or knowledge which the average insaan did not have and YET they followed him nevertheless?!

And BTW, the vast majority of Indian Muslims preferred to stay put in India because they LIKED it there! It is called voting with your feet. It does not matter that many of their forefathers were misled (or junooned) into voting for Pakistan. It was a stupid thing to do and those same people, had they been alive, would now cry like a baby to look at the end results.

As far as the butchery and other hardships that the Partition-displaced people underwent (on both sides of the border) are concerned, the blame should be placed squarely upon the people who committed those atrocities and perhaps equally on the people who brought that event about!

Your Shri Jinnah being the chief culprit!

#297 Posted by zeemax on May 24, 2008 3:32:02 am


These local Pakistanis are plate pissers.


you work for the SBP and yet call for the overthrow of the government and sharia rule...

Correction in #304

Change Fatima Jinnah to Fatima BHUTTO!

Kambakhat Jinnah must be haunting me! Rats!

Re: # 302

Au contraire, my dear Zee, it is you who is being devious!

In fact, the little sis detests mullahs and although she is innocent, perhaps a bit like Fatima Jinnah – she can never fall to their trickery and chaalbazi!

So forget any dreams of taking advantage of her innocence and of fooling and co-opting her! Stop pretending to be a well-wisher while in reality pursuing your very own (foolish) agenda.

It has been well-demonstrated, through countless posts from my little sis that – given half an opportunity – she would pluck (your) graying mullah beards all the way from their roots…she would pull so hard that not only the beard but anything else connected with it – perhaps the entrails as well as your (superficial) indicators of (false) masculinity – would come yanked out! And then she would happily offer the same to her pet canine for its morning repast.

Therefore, you ought to - for the sake of physical integrity alone - cease and desist!

Re: # 194

Abe Manto Chod de,

Yeh sab hamare desh ke Gandhu wadi choootieeya hai.

For the record:

1) The kasturba thing is true.

2) His children hated him he could not become father to his own children and became father of our nation.

3) He was a faddist having bizzare notions of what constitutes truth and he did experiments with the same like Shri CV Raman did with various lab apparati. The chief way of doing these experiments were with other people lives like if I want to learn surgery without the benefit of a teacher and use live human beings e.g. the hapless Hindus massacred in the Moplah riots.

4) That he was a racist and a caste bigot is well known. His championing of the obonoxious Tamil Brahmin practices was shocking to say the least.

5) What is not well known is his megalomania the need to be leader of all at any cost. His fight with Netaji is well known. The fact he let Bhagat Singh hang when he could have saved him. His assuming leadership of all Indians when there was a passionate opposition to him from a great majority cutting accross caste and religion.

6) There was no gr8 moral imperative in the 1st world war. Yet he behaved as a recruiting sargeant of the Brits in the same when men like Veer Savarkar, Lala Hardayal etc. braved odds to fight the brits in any way they could. In the second world war where there was gr8 moral imperative that of defeating National Socialism he ended up peddling bizzare theories like the Jews should voluntarily go to their deaths smiling.

If the above does not show a perverse mentality I would wonder what does. If your country suffers from following a peadophile murderer at least it is because you are brainwashed into believing him as an apostle of god, I wonder what our excuse is of following a man who not only made fanciful interpretaions of our holy books but insulted our heroes.

In short Gandhi was a bizzare sort of a human vermin whos succesfully peddled a lot of snake oil to a large sections of our society and these idiots have bought it as the elixir of eternal life.

You do not know the bizzareness of some more of his followers like Mashruwala and his anti Vanaspati movement. Yes that is anti Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil movement. Google it and see if links come out you will be shocked out of your wits as to what Gandhianism is about?

Long live Shri J ling Live partition tis a pity we could not send all our muslai on a one way ticket across the border.

Sanatani

#301 Posted by bjkumar,

BJ, Sir, I think it's a little presumptive on your part that you think you can fool Zeena over this sis thing. She knows very well what you stand for. Your repeating this is adding insult to injury for Zeena, as I see it.

Re: # 296

Pakistan3, the little sis has a heart of gold and when everything is said and done, that's all that remains and counts - not the superficial labels!

Re: # 298

[After my interactions here on Chowk, one thing I have learned about Pakistan is that it is no less pluralist and no less democractic than any other country]

...and then you woke up, of course!

#298 Posted by anil,

Anil Saheb, anyone who calls Pakistanis unwashed masses, is certainly not pro-Pakistan. Re ana, she is a pure Pakistani. She would never insult Pakistan or Pakistanis.

Re democratic/pluralist etc, these are just semantics. These are often used by Pakistanis such as hamidm2, tahmed and many others in pretense for pandering to anti-Pakistan sentiments. If these people were in the least pluralistic or democratic, they would not condemn a very large segment of the population which had to resort to guns and bombs to have their point of view known. There was no other way. And they won at great cost to themselves and to everyone else.

These people are libero-fascists, not democratic. I am perhaps the only democratic Pakistani on Chowk.

Re: # 297

Zeemax Sahib:

From my room with a view on Chowk, I find Pakistanis here at Chowk to be just as pluralist as people from anywhere else. The opinions vastly differ from Hamidm Sahib to yourself, but calling for example Hamidm sahib, Ana and others "not" pro-Pakistani does not do justice to Pakistan. After my interactions here on Chowk, one thing I have learned about Pakistan is that it is no less pluralist and no less democractic than any other country, including one on the East side of its border.

#294 Posted by anil,

Let me ask you a question. How many locally located Pakistanis have you seen supporting Pro-Pakistan views as some (few) overseas Pakistanis? As it is, there are very few locally located Pakistanis on the FP forum. I would say the Pro-Pakistan Pakistanis local or overseas are vastly outnumbered here. There are more Pakistanis on Unplugged and ALL of them are anti-Pakistan or look down upon it.

These local Pakistanis are plate pissers. They eat off Pakistan's plate after either having failed to move or failed everywhere else in trying to make a decent living, and then piss on Pakistan at the same time.

The harsh responses are an outcome of that.

pakistan3,

I am sympathetic to your views about Overseas Pakistanis. Most of them become pineapples (brown outside-white inside). I share your general opinion. There are dozens of them here. Zeena is NOT one of those. There are a few others as well like Urstruly. Then there are some who actually moved back and are as committed as you such as masadi and bulleya. Some retaliate, some don't. I myself was an Overseas Pakistani but moved back because there's nothing like your own country, and one must never knock their own country. Not many people are in a position or circumstances are able to do that even if they wanted to.

My friend, Zeena is no one to be steamrolled. She gives back equally or more as given. That doesn't detract anything from her working in Pakistan's interests in ALL areas where she can, wherever she may be.

Re: # 293

to add to that, we need realistic people to help us build this country and not those "overseas Pakistanis" that see the fantasy that is Pakistan for them (because of some guilt complex they harbor) and not Pakistan the Reality.

Allah Nigehban

Zeena:

Your actions have spoken many times louder. Is it necessary to use harsher words with others?

Re: # 290

Zeemax,

I have read this woman's rants before. Totally uncalled for if I am allowed to say this.

Accusing average Pakistanis for "not working hard enough" is proposterous. And before you tell me about her burns hospital or any other achievements, good as they may be, donot justify her attitude.

We in Pakistan, presumably that includes you too, have gone through difficult times and still are, but we stuck around. I am sure if Zeena decides to return, Pakistan will welcome her with open arms. Until such time, she should keep her self righteous opinions to herself.

As for the language used by this woman against many before, believe you me I am capable of matching her with no issues whatsoever if that is what she chooses.

I am sure we'll talk again on the subject.

Until then, Allah Nigehban.

#283 zeemax
Thanks for your correct statement.

#282 Re:pakistan3
Yes,I do support Hillary Clinton and that's my perorgative to strongly support whomever I feel better for all of us.

And where ever I live , just remember one thing...I am all for my country,Pakistan.

#283 zeemax
Thanks for your correct statement.

#282 Re:pakistan3
Yes,I do support Hillary Clinton and that's my perorgative to strongly support whomever I feel better for all of us.

And where ever I live , just remember one thing...I am all for my country,Pakistan.

#284 Posted by pakistan3,

This business makes me angry when people living overseas try to dictate what I should or shouldn't do in my own country.

Zeena feels more strongly about Pakistan than MANY Pakistanis living in Pakistan itself. Stick around and you will know the character of most Pakistanis on this forum.

#279 Posted by Goldfinger

While I agree with you that obsession with politicians is unhealthy, I also believe that no matter what their shortcomings, they are invariably better than the non political characters that descend on the throne brandishing their bright shining scimitars, wearing colorful stripes on the chests, and are only answerable to a bunch of others like them, but just a notch below in rank.

When you climb down from Empyrean to empirical, you will notice that the last messiah or one person that presumably tried to change the world passed away eons ago. Since then humanity has to deal with the mere mortals and as we know they are not perfect. The politicians collect all the scars, scotches, good looks, and quality suits on their way to the stardom.

While Bhutto had many problems, like the rest of the politicians the world over, he was a wee bit better in at least one regard. There was some one who could have taken him down and he did. But when the god’s gift to the citizenry took over, the people did not even have anyone but God left to take him down.

In Pakistan, we like to believe that when a civilian becomes the PM, the era of democracy ushers in and all of a sudden, we want that PM to sell his properties, his suits, stay away from drinking and if you are of a particular bent, offer prayers five times a day.

Pakistan, its politicians, Judges, lawyers, and the wardiposh still have to learn a lot about democracy. But as they say, you can’t learn a new trade without making a few mistakes on the way. Consider the Bhuttos both the father and the daughter, the Son in Law, the Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy of our country as our mistakes that would eventually get us to a point when we would believe that we have learned from the mistakes and we have a democratic country. Even at that point, we still would not have the perfect one that you so feverishly desire, to lead us.

Sorry for this rambling post but the crux of the matter is that there is no point in abusing civilian politicians when your only other choice is some scimitar wielding, god's gift who is a master blaster of every language and every diction due to his degreed education at kakul.

I hope you post often.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 223 Rr. Arjun hope you behave yourself so will not be banned again shortly.
Yes as you said S & P ratiing down grading was not bad but Moody down grading hurt market and circuit breakers were in action. There one problem in rating as it is very biased ( full of indians in both organization), Hope you will agree to that.

Re: # 283

Zeemax,

Yes I joined a month or so ago.

I take your advice wrt Zeena. This business makes me angry when people living overseas try to dictate what I should or shouldn't do in my own country.

Allah Nigehban

pakistan3,

Zeena Bhabi sey panga liya tau pachtao gey ... you're new I guess!

Re: # 281

Zeena,

(pakistan3 aka multiple nicks baigharat)

I can assure you this is the only nic I have.

(because of shameless and baigharat people like you who feel no shame , absolutely no shame when it comes to American SLAVERY, you close your eyes and beg in front of America for making ends meet.)

I live, work and contribute in Pakistan. May I ask where you live? I recently came across your rants supporting Hilary Clinton.

Need I say more about anything else you wrote?

RE:#124 pakistan3
pakistan3 aka multiple nicks baigharat

You want to know why I am ashamed and sad? because of shameless and baigharat people like you who feel no shame , absolutely no shame when it comes to American SLAVERY, you close your eyes and beg in front of America for making ends meet.....

Do you even care Pakistan was sold to Americans just few years after getting freedom from Britishers? Why?
Just b/c of morons like you who're pathologically sheepish who don't have nerves and minds to run their own country in accurate ways and are so much used to of first Brit's slavery followed by American Salvery.....

Pakistan is down the hell just because of sissies like you who hiding behind anon nick with no courage even to reveal his/her identity taking pot shots on those good people who are not in Pakistan, but are working hard day and night and helping Pakistan in every way possible to revive Pakistan's torn down image......we're those patriots who are feeling heartaches for Pakistan's helplessness in front of dirty dictators, dirty politicians and Pakistan's MASTER.....

Do you know? each and every Pakistani and their generations to come are dependent on American Aid...And they don't even have any courage and strength to stand on their own like their next door India....

Do you know? India is now almost a super power and China next door is already a super power, these two countries are new Asian tigers which can look in to the eyes to other super powers with their integrity and self respect, which Pakistan lost by accpeting happily American Slavery......

And BTW are you owner of Pakistan? Those who're living abroad have more right to Pakistan than cowards like you who're always begging infront of American aid....

Pakistanis like you don't like to work , they know Americans will always take care of your needs......and anytime you'll have financial problem, your master America is there to meet your basic needs.....you're born slaves....

Just think about it...
Mr.Pakistan3, my foot.....

Beej Yaar, I read a couple of pieces written about her in the NYTimes after BB’s death. It is nauseating that these people really believe that they are the rightful owners of all of Pakistanis and the only job suitable for them is to be the rulers. Her garbage about all kinds of theories about who killed her father, without any proof or substantiation is just a load of bull. May be her step mother had a hand in Murtaza’s death? Now even that decoration piece wants to be nothing less than a ruler. Do these people have any friggin shame?

Anil Yaar, Masadi Sahib is very passionate about Pakistani politics but sometimes his passion makes him nutty to fall into a deep peculiarity to place bets on a losing mare. I don’t know what he sees in Fatima. I think he is easily impressed. As a proud Pakistani, I have much higher standards.

Re: # 260 says Masadi:"I write facts about the man which you counter with "he jetsetted around the globe" as rebuttal, needless to say, you're a certified fool."

Along with jetsetted the world try also the rather more interesting pastimes of hypocrisy, megalomania, misrule, planning to murder political foes, destruction of economy and consorting to have the nation split apart and civil war. Not your fault though, probably the smoke is making you to remember things only partially.

Re: # 276
Kulharee Sahib:

"....uncles ... and Masadi..."

Please do not make Massaddi Mian an uncle. He is so good for nothing, and then now he would useless uncle on top of it.

#276 Kulharee

Yaar, that's highly unfair. First, Ms. Fatima Bhutto is not a politician but a poet. Second, she has shown no interest in any of those shady deals which Pakistani politicians, khakis, mullahs, etc. make left and right. Her interest is limited to bringing to light the circumstances of her dad's death and hopefully - and this is clearly a long shot - bring to some sort of justice those who were responsible. My good wishes and prayers are with her.

Sometimes, you Pakistanis - especially the males - can be so cruel that I am glad to disclaim any association with you all!

Fatima, don’t listen to uncles Ras and Masadi, listen to uncle Kulharee. Learn to cook and do laundry like 98% women in your country do. Your family has sacrificed enough for this country, and have also looted it for more than their fair share. It’s time for a new and different leadership. We are waiting for someone who can stand upto the religious and army thugs. Bhuttos have proven to be ball-less schmucks. Your grandpa gave into Mullahs and declared a perfectly alright community outside the fold of Islam, your aunt (may she rest is peace) according to you was responsible for your Father’s death. Why the freck do you think that we should trust another one from Bhutto family? What if you turn out to be worse than your grandpa and aunt? Your family has a very poor track record – your aunt left her teenage son in-charge of a political party as if it was your father’s sultanate. If you want to really help Pakistanis, go and teach at an elementary school. Pakistan needs good and dedicated teachers like Masadi.

tahmed (#93),

Here’s my take on things: Early on, you and I used to discuss topics. We had different opinions but all was fine – no issues.

Things went south when you made some very lewd, third-rate comments about me (involving me and a female chowkie) … while unleashing a morality tirade. At one point you were not above dragging Mrs. Sattar in your tirade. I was taken by surprise by your accusations … but told you - in clear language - about your incorrect assumptions … and what you should do with your misplaced morality agenda.

This episode played out repeatedly on several boards, over time. At one point you even tried to blame me for supposedly misunderstanding you. No deal! … was my position, which did not sit well with you as I told you off. And things continue to slide downhill …

I’ve left out the details for good reasons. You may want to review your own assumptions, attitude, and outlook before shifting the blame on others. I can’t speak for others you named … I don’t know what transpired between you and them …

… but I know for sure what transpired between you and me. Your comments were crude and disgusting. And you are a fool if you think you wouldn’t lose my respect; you most certainly did.

Back to Fatima Bhutto …

VRV,

Zeemax is a foolish jihadi idiot. There is no need to respond to any of his countless moronic posts.

Zaradai had that advantage of police supplying gaals to his prison. Gandhi cant have that given by the Brit police. Sad :(

Did Gandhi have his nieces in the Agha Khan Palace along ????

#269.. I think "put forth" is the only bit of truth in your post :)

OMG, Yasser is back to what he's best at??

What's the point highlighting abt Aga Khan Palace when that gandoo (i.e Gandhi) never enjoyed luxuries? Neither Gandhi wanted to be imprisoned at AKP nor he's yearned to enjoy the pleasures of luxury. He never even had proper meals in his life during hs political career (chana and tomatoes, ornage juice etc.,).

It's worng to assume that he was in AC rooms of that Palace, slept on luxuty beds and sat in expensive sofas of the chandeliored rooms. It's correct to say that Gandhi also spent his incarceration at Yarwada Prison in Poona.

Yasser, U r incorrigible.

#268 Army apologist and pervert Leadenwinter writes "masadi... you are by far the silliest creature on the face of the planet... "

That is what I expect from your kind of immoral retards, ad hominem, you cannot and have not been able to approach a single one of my arguments that I have quite solidly put forth in my posts on chowk including the one on your dimwitted piece on why Army rule is best for Pakistan...

masadi... you are by far the silliest creature on the face of the planet... I seriously think you should stop smoking whatever it is that keeps you in this perpetual state of self satisfied delusion.

Correction "hold meetings with the Q,"

as " hold meetings with the N

g'night

Ras writes "Fatima,

some advice from this "Old Uncle" who just means well.

You are young and idealistic (like your father).

It is time you got married and had a family of your own.

Ten years from now you will be needed by your country

and its people. Till then stay out of the way and continue

your writing.

Your Aunt, in spite of your family problems was not

responsible for your father's death. We do not know about

the rest.

In the mean time I do not know what "William Uncle" is up

to, but I would advise caution in the near future in

your media exposure. Patience is a virtue!"


"Fatima, some advice from masadi who means well not only for you but for this nation.

You are young and idealistic which is a good thing for producing sincere action. Marriage and family will add complications both to your idealism as well as what you can achieve. Your country is a changed country now. In ten years due to American/Pakistan Army shenanigans, new thugs will be incorporated and mainstreamed so you need to take action NOW. Continue your writing of course, but try to push your way into the power structure of this country. Join the lawyer's movement and the other assorted boycotters and give the establishment hell. Call BS on the PPP leadership, hold meetings with the Q, get media exposure, and "jetset" around the globe to expose the Pakistan Army and US BS in this nation. The people will go with you and not with the thug who now occupies the leadership position of your grandfather's party by default. Regarding who murdered your father, you should know that people of greater power than BB and the thug did it but both of them sure did benefit from it, the establishmentized PPP was more convenient to the powers that be than one which might fall into the hands of an unpredictible maverick. Now, be smart like your grandfather and not dumb like your aunt, the country has changed, join the resistance and save ZAB's people's movement that is being f'kd by the thug sitting in its command post...Finally, if you do make it through, I will be available for a brief appointment to the foreign ministry just so long as I can tell the Americans on their face and on public TV to "go F themselves", then you can appoint someone else if you so please.

Sincerely,

masadi

Its amazing .. Pakistanis are probably the only people in the world who actually campaign against their own well-being.

Zardaris a criminal..in the same way the sun rises in the east... there's no doubts and no arguments, thus anyone who supports his re-election is a criminal by default without much ambiguity at all.

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