Pakistan's Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later

zeemax #346 I agree that, despite his own obvious involvement over the past 8 years in mush's illegal rule, kiani does provide some useful insights - one thing he confirms is that it was counterproductive to use high tech weapons in fata when (speaking as an infantry officer himself) infantry would do the job much better (i.e. catch the militants while avoiding damage to buildings and any other individuals in the vicinity).

But then the question is - will the current government take his advice? Right now it seems to be going the other way, leaving it for the US to fight the militants with its hands tied behind its back (i.e., no "boots on the ground", thus forcing the US to stick to use of drones alone). You and I are of course not on the same page on these militants, but in light of Kiani's remarks you may wish to see where I am coming from on this.

#347 Posted by tahmed32

So - one can only welcome the decision by the ex-servicemen to get off their behinds ..

That's well said. Rest of your post is very reasonable too.

Besides, one reason for these senior ex-servicemen's (including Kiyani and many others) acquiescence during service would be (1) musharraf's 12 October 97 coup was mostly welcomed and then validated in 2002 and; (2) he was in fact quite popular before 9 March 2007. I think the crunch came on 3rd Nov 2007 when he crossed all remotely acceptable limits by a long shot.

zeemax #328 I saw the interview and he does confirm some things and provide some additional insights.

Thus - he is right in calling for a trial of musharraf so future "ataturks" think twice before overthrowing the government. He says he had nothing to do with the coup, but as one of the Corp Commanders with whose help mush maintained his illegal rule of the country, he must be aware that such a process would bring into question his own involvement too. As would other senior retired officers. So, wrt to motivations, it seems it is a mixture of

1. genuine realization of the damage done to the nation by overthrowing the Pakistan Constitution (a realization that is clearer now that the hubris of power is over after retirement);
2. fear of the widespread anger that mush's lawless actions have generated in the nation;

Regardless of the motives, given that democratic forces in Pakistan need all the help they can get (given the forces arrayed before them, with mqm ghoonda and zardari wadera in sindh linking up with ANP whose leader whose vision seems to end with renaming the province plus mush's own continued machinations plus the attacks on civil society by islamists who live in their own cartoon world).

So - one can only welcome the decision by the ex-servicemen to get off their behinds and lend much needed help to the Chief Justice and the lawyers in their struggle to save Pakistan by putting back in place the supremacy of the law and the Pakistan Constitution that was overthrown by this rogue general.

#343 Posted by SR,

You could have a point re the musharraf mole part, given the circumstantial evidence of Ziauddin Butt being Nawaz's man and musharraf would have been kept informed by someone else in ISI to have turned the tables so fast. Though your version of PSC episode doesn't sound plausible. If the Board members had such serious objections, why fire your own appointee, the Chairman, over some DIG promotions?

Anyway, I said in an earlier post that any accusations by Kiyani should be taken on their own merit, and not trivialized on ad-hominem grounds alone.

Purely on merit, his accusations are actually what are well-known secrets. Who doesn't know Kargil was an ill-conceived misadventure? Or that the hijacked aircraft blackbox nor cockpit voice recorder was ever produced in court, nor a single passenger's evidence recorded? Or that white phosphorous was used on Jamia Hafsa?

He actually said nothing new. Just confirmed facts from firsthand information, whatever his own motives may have been for doing that - noble or ignoble.

another thing: he says mushy folded like a cheap walmart deck chair when powell called..just dropped his pants and bent over...the general dude thinks pakiland should have negotiated..

pakis: did you watch kiani's interview...I did...ripped the audio and heard it on my ipod.

a few salient points..

pakis got their clock cleaned in kargil...they were shocked!! shocked!! that the indians used the AF and bofors..and they went begging to america because india was getting ready to escalate, bomb or no bomb...

so the paki bomb didn't stop india from taking back what it considered it's own...you know what this means pakis...no kashmir for you now..ever..

oh...and he confirmed the fact that bodies of paki soldiers were left behind in kargil..probably rotting away slowly even as I type..

phosphorus grenades were used against the ninja chix...so, yes...they were "shaked and baked" chix by the time they met allah...

Re: # 335 zeemax ["...he gave regular briefings to musharraf on Kargil, but being in ISI he obviously was not part of the actual planning or execution of the military operation...]

You are correct that he was not a part of the Kargil planning... but his section of the ISI was involved with the 'Kashmiri jihad' ... But let's forget Kargil. That is not Musharraf's only crime. Let's talk about 12th October, 1999.

As you are aware, the ISI (theoritically) does not come under the army chief. ISI senior officers are mostly from the army (some from Air Forece & Navy too), but they are on a "loan" to the ISI, just like if they were posted in some foreign embassy they would be on loan to the foreign ministry. Lt. General Zia-ud-Din was the Director General of the ISI and he was a Nawaz Sharif loyalist. He is the one Nawaz wanted to make COAS after firing Musharraf. But when the time came Musharraf was ready and the tables were turned on Zia-ud-Din and Nawaz Sharif. Actually Musharraf had a mole in the ISI. As Major General and one of the five division heads of ISI Gulzar Kiani was only supposed to report to his boss Zia-ud-Din, not to the COAS. But in fact he was Musharraf's mole. That is why he was rewarded with a promotion and given the Rawalpindi corps. Later he was given charimanship of PSC. All rewards for being a Mush toady.

His break with Mush came over the promotion of police DIGs when he was unable to convince the PSC board members and Musharraf, as punishment, changed the rules thus reducing the PSC board members' term in office from 5 years to three years.

I am not impressed with someone of his history who changes his religion at the last minute. This is not called principle or character. This is called convenience and expediency.

...SR

With reference to the upright General (Retd) Kiyani

Like any other Pak army Gneral, Kiyani too was and continues to be a beneficiary of being allocated lands way beyond the means of any other honest profession. Has the esteemed Retired General objected to these extravagently lavish land distributions? NO and why? because its suits them fine, now that they see their game plan ending they are dumping their chief, easy scapegoat.

Re: # 250
Zeemax...
MF is habitual offender and is slapped by court several times. He is now a fugitive like Dawood Ibrahim. Anyhow, after returning, he will face couple of more charges...
What is the relation with M F Hussein to Danish cartoons? These danish cartoons are not offensive at all.

Hamid...
Yes, Pakistan has some good nuicense creation value. India knows that very well. During cold war, USA used Pakistan as its dog...and now China. How many days Pakistan will play the role of pet dog for other countries? I hope, as a nation, you need some positive and independent agenda as well....

From Kargil war, Pakistan has gained nothing apart from creating trouble for India and loosing thousands of its regulars. And all this on behalf of China. Indian nuke test was meant for China. So, when Pakistan tested ( so called) nuke device, India was not anxious. Vajpayee called NS and tamed him. But that was not liked by chinese bosses and Pak army worked as chinku dog and got mauled to some extent...

What was the general trying to do

(a) get a job as an analyst
(b) message to Musharuff
(c) save the nation
(d) a message to the Yanks
(e) kick Musharuff in the balls

His boss at the Agency when he was N tried to d the same but Hamid Gul did not have much joy. Will this guy have any joy?

Re: # 307
Urs...
Ha Ha ha...
http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/02/06/ed-cartoon-big.jpg
ht tp://homepage.mac.com/dmhart/iblog/C437552202/E1888763686/Media/minareterna-kopi erasmall.gif

Arjun, help me...

Re: # 335 he was N at the ISI? (atleast that is what he said in the interview)

Re: # 335 he was N at the ISI? (atleast that is what he said in the interview)

Re: # 335 he was N at the ISI? (atleast that is what he said in the interview)

#332 Posted by SR,

As one of the five ISI directors he was obviously 'in the picture' and could have blown the whistle if he was himself morally upright.

He stated that he gave regular briefings to musharraf on Kargil, but being in ISI he obviously was not part of the actual planning or execution of the military operation. The same team of Corps Commanders which brought musharraf to power were the Kargil team.

And blown the whistle on what? The faulty planning? That would only have been his own view at the time as against his colleagues.

Re the rest of your post, read #331.

Zee sahib,

(Certainly Army-men are under oath and can't go public during service. )

If he has only recently retired from service, that would seem a very reasonable explanation.

Regards