Pervez Hoodbhoy May 28, 2008
#1 Posted by majumdar on May 29, 2008 1:42:30 am
Pakistan was already a nuclear state before Chagai and may well have secretly tested a bomb (possibly in some Chinese facilities). What Pokharan and Chagai did were bring the de facto nuclear status of the two countries into open and reduce the possibilities of adventurism leading into open war.
Pakistan needed the bomb to protect itself against an actual Indian attack or blackmail by Indians. It did the right thing in Chagai.
Yes, Pakistan has had serious failures post 1998 but they were not becuase of the bomb rather what happened post 1998 may well have happened even if the Bomb had not happened. And the bomb was supposed to protect against Indian aggression (which it has done) and not against internal threats (which it has not). No point in blaming the Bomb for not doing what it was not supposed to do in the first place.
Regards
Pakistan needed the bomb to protect itself against an actual Indian attack or blackmail by Indians. It did the right thing in Chagai.
Yes, Pakistan has had serious failures post 1998 but they were not becuase of the bomb rather what happened post 1998 may well have happened even if the Bomb had not happened. And the bomb was supposed to protect against Indian aggression (which it has done) and not against internal threats (which it has not). No point in blaming the Bomb for not doing what it was not supposed to do in the first place.
Regards
#2 Posted by vengatramanan on May 29, 2008 2:12:14 am
Pakistan tested the bomb essentially to avoid bullying by India. It knew that India would never go nuclear against it. It was also for its public consumption.
If Pakistan had not gone for the nuclear option, it would have looked benign in the eyes of rest of the world. The test blast did effect the attitude of the army and civil powers toward India and other countries and could have played a huge role in decision making.
If Pakistan had not gone for the nuclear option, it would have looked benign in the eyes of rest of the world. The test blast did effect the attitude of the army and civil powers toward India and other countries and could have played a huge role in decision making.
#3 Posted by iron_mask on May 29, 2008 2:26:37 am
Pakistan did the bomb thing for itself - not for this thing called avoiding bullying from India or any one else.
Its a macho thing. Who has the bigger and better gun. Its a common ailment....
it should blaming others for its action and get on with its life. Its actions are its own.
Are you all trying to suggest that PAKISTAN IS A REACTIVE COUNTRY WITH NO CREATIVITY. Bollocks.
Its a macho thing. Who has the bigger and better gun. Its a common ailment....
it should blaming others for its action and get on with its life. Its actions are its own.
Are you all trying to suggest that PAKISTAN IS A REACTIVE COUNTRY WITH NO CREATIVITY. Bollocks.
#5 Posted by majumdar on May 29, 2008 2:34:01 am
Irony,
No is "blaming" Pakistan for exploding the bomb.
Regards
No is "blaming" Pakistan for exploding the bomb.
Regards
#6 Posted by vengatramanan on May 29, 2008 2:41:45 am
The outcome .i.e. the tit for tat is essentially an out come of the military think tank. Thats the only way they can think of achieving parity whereas a more established civilian power could have seen the Indian testing in different perspective and reacted differently.
#7 Posted by majumdar on May 29, 2008 2:50:04 am
Vengy,
USA, USSR, China, France, UK, India et al were all ruled by civilians when they went nuclear. And Pakistan's nuclear programme was started by a civilain ruler, ZAB.
Regards
USA, USSR, China, France, UK, India et al were all ruled by civilians when they went nuclear. And Pakistan's nuclear programme was started by a civilain ruler, ZAB.
Regards
#8 Posted by vengatramanan on May 29, 2008 3:05:20 am
Re: # 7
Maju Anna,
Its the timing of the blasts that betrays military think tanks hand in the decision. Its not about the commissioning of the project.
Regards ;P
Maju Anna,
Its the timing of the blasts that betrays military think tanks hand in the decision. Its not about the commissioning of the project.
Regards ;P
#9 Posted by harish_hyd on May 29, 2008 4:25:01 am
Pakistan's whole nuclear program is based on the false premise that India is out to gobble it up, but today it is the US that regularly attacks Pakis inside Pakistan. What are the nuclear weapons going to do to the US? The Jihadis have almost completely destabilized the country but is there anything the nukes can do about it? Billions of dollars and years of scandals and opprobrium later, Pakis aren't any safer than they were before the nukes.
#10 Posted by nkg on May 29, 2008 4:37:49 am
Majumder, Pervez...
India's nuclear program was mainly towards China. All started after 1962 debacle. So, Mr. Pervez Hoodbhoy is absolutely wrong to point that Indias nuclear program has forced Pakistan to adopt similar policy. Even India's ICBM program (Beyond 5000KM) has nothing to do with Pakisthan.
Pakistan gets all its nuclear equipments from China. I am sure, they did not need a nuke test to enhance neuclear weaponisation program. Like Kargil misadventure, 1998 test was also kind of barking on behalf of China. After 1998 test, India was able to convince Nawaz Sharief the main intention of Indian nuke and missile program. Chinese establishment did not like it and used Pak military to attack India (Kargil) and kick out Nawaz Sharief.
RAW had handed over telephonic conversation between Pakistani Military and Chinese leaders to GOI and unfortunately, GOI leaked that information and handed over to NS. BJP Govt. was stupidest in this regard.
Majum...
Pakistan should carry out nuke test, but as retailation to Indian test does not make any sense.
Regarding economic fallouts- Pakistan was equally bad shaped in economic front. Furthermore, army take over had not helped it's cause either. 9/11 has saved both the countries. Pakistan little more.
India's nuclear program was mainly towards China. All started after 1962 debacle. So, Mr. Pervez Hoodbhoy is absolutely wrong to point that Indias nuclear program has forced Pakistan to adopt similar policy. Even India's ICBM program (Beyond 5000KM) has nothing to do with Pakisthan.
Pakistan gets all its nuclear equipments from China. I am sure, they did not need a nuke test to enhance neuclear weaponisation program. Like Kargil misadventure, 1998 test was also kind of barking on behalf of China. After 1998 test, India was able to convince Nawaz Sharief the main intention of Indian nuke and missile program. Chinese establishment did not like it and used Pak military to attack India (Kargil) and kick out Nawaz Sharief.
RAW had handed over telephonic conversation between Pakistani Military and Chinese leaders to GOI and unfortunately, GOI leaked that information and handed over to NS. BJP Govt. was stupidest in this regard.
Majum...
Pakistan should carry out nuke test, but as retailation to Indian test does not make any sense.
Regarding economic fallouts- Pakistan was equally bad shaped in economic front. Furthermore, army take over had not helped it's cause either. 9/11 has saved both the countries. Pakistan little more.
#11 Posted by zeemax on May 29, 2008 4:40:59 am
Pakistan did its first cold test in 1983 i.e. just 9 years after commencement of the programme. By 1989 it had a fissile device. Since then it was only a matter of timing when to put it on the shelf by a hot test. India gave that opportunity in May 1998.
If that opportunity had not been availed right then, it would have been nearly impossible to do it since - given the events of the past ten years.
That decision freed Pakistan from having to match India tank for tank in maintaining the prohibitively expensive balance of conventional power. The defense budget has since then has never exceeded as a percentage of GDP and has been mainly spent on delivery systems. Thank you Bharat.
If that opportunity had not been availed right then, it would have been nearly impossible to do it since - given the events of the past ten years.
That decision freed Pakistan from having to match India tank for tank in maintaining the prohibitively expensive balance of conventional power. The defense budget has since then has never exceeded as a percentage of GDP and has been mainly spent on delivery systems. Thank you Bharat.
#12 Posted by nkg on May 29, 2008 4:52:40 am
Re: # 3
Iron...
Macho!!!!
You can not manufacture a decent car, building nuke warhead (that also not with best quality plutonium) does not make you macho. US,USSR and Russia have good science and technology. These stuff makes them macho. Not countries with begging bowel. Talk with US/european/Japanese people and know what respect you get for your so called "scientific achievements"...
Iron...
Macho!!!!
You can not manufacture a decent car, building nuke warhead (that also not with best quality plutonium) does not make you macho. US,USSR and Russia have good science and technology. These stuff makes them macho. Not countries with begging bowel. Talk with US/european/Japanese people and know what respect you get for your so called "scientific achievements"...
#13 Posted by majumdar on May 29, 2008 4:55:31 am
Zee sahib,
Re: 11
Well summed up. India is neutralised as a threat and now the only threats are internal. But countering that would require completely different skill sets.
Regards
Re: 11
Well summed up. India is neutralised as a threat and now the only threats are internal. But countering that would require completely different skill sets.
Regards
#15 Posted by nasah on May 29, 2008 5:42:13 am
Pakistan committed a dastardly act on the day it exploded a series of nuclear devises 10 years ago -- in response to -- an even dastardlier act -- committed by India -- the original culprit -- that brought the BOMB -- on the heads of impoversihed illiterate intemperate overcrowded backward subcontinent -- with messed up upside down -- priorities.
#16 Posted by iron_mask on May 29, 2008 5:45:57 am
nasah - why do you keep saying this?
This is a terrible insult you bring upon the nation of pakistan. You seem to be suggesting that Pakistan is Reactive, and they cannot do things independently.
Guys like you are sad sacks sad caricatures of the macaulaite instituionalisation of your minds.
really sad. really sad.
This is a terrible insult you bring upon the nation of pakistan. You seem to be suggesting that Pakistan is Reactive, and they cannot do things independently.
Guys like you are sad sacks sad caricatures of the macaulaite instituionalisation of your minds.
really sad. really sad.
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