The 'One God' Religions of Revelation

dost_mittar: #947

What you say really disproves what I have been saying (unless your friend is a Muslim). It means that a Mullah was able to read the Nikah of a Muslim girl with a Non-Muslim boy. If he has done that, there should soon be a fatwa against him.

He converted just for getting married in the mosque and then re-converted for getting married in the temple.

This is just to convince parents on both sides. :-)
I don't think either of the two are religious.

Re: # 978 Baig,

We all evolve on daily basis as we are also influenced by others views and more information turning into knowledge into wisdom. I will look at your articles but your current views would take the discussion to fruitful conclusion.

You have not answered why do you coin new word Bramhinism? Bramhin, as caste would not say that they are propagating bramhinism.

Why are you writing about something which you have not lived as a dogma or creed? I am assuming you are a Muslim. In case so, you are more qualified to write on Islam. Some one here mentioned that you are married to a Hindu lady. You can tell us more about inter faith marriages, and the joys and struggles in such marriages. This would help others now or in future. Tell us more about how you raised kids of mixed faith. I guess you live in India, then tell us more about what you and your family has done to bridge the gap between Hindus and Muslims. Muslims generally do not try to own the culture or history of India esp one before 1K year before. They do not have clue about local saints and sages of the area in which they live. They even do not try to learn the local language.

Recently, a Muslim fellow came to me for some help. After the help he wanted to treat me. I told him that I would rather visit his family and have some snacks with tea at his place. Reluctantly he agreed. I could see why he was reluctant. They lived in a poor Muslim slum area. May be little better than slum. He had two boys and two girls. Girls went to Madarassa where they were taught only Urdu and Arabic. The boys went to vernacular local school and college. Girls could not speak the local language. It was shocking. Here is a family who lived in the same town for more than 100 years and some of its members could not talk in local language or pretend not to know.

To get an idea of where I am, I asked who were the smart boys or girls, who got very high marks in 10th and 12th. His son took few names. I asked if you can call them. Then I had a talk with these 11-13 graders. All of the girls (4 out of 6) went to madarassa. They had more marks because of very high marks in Urdu and Arabic. To these 17-20 years old I gave a simple puzzle of finding the digits of a five digit number which when multiplied by four reverses its digits. The smart among them even did not know how to form an equation. They were clueless. Even after giving hints and lots of prodding there was no progress in sloving the puzzle.

TV is there in the house but it brings only bad news, scantily clad women and Mr. Naik's vitriol. I felt Muslims are slipping away by their choices. Folks like you need to do something for these folks. When I gave the same puzzle to a class of V graders in a slum school in other area, the sparky eyed kids started working on it immediately, and in 15 minutes at least 7 out of 40 kids solved it.

Instead of working on history of others, let us make the history!

Re: # 977

It is so easy.

Please click on my name in THIS article and Chowk will immediately show you a list of the 15 earlier articles I had written.

The last article was on the persecution of the Buddhists and Jains and an earlier one in September 2006 was on the evolution of `Hiduism'. There are also some on how Islam was similarly distorted by motivated priests and clerics.

Baig,

Which article? Pl provide the link. What is this Bramhinism? How is it different from what others here have mentioned as Sanatan Dharm and Hinduism?

Since those are your articles can you please cut and paste the whole article or relevant parts.

Thanks!

Re: # 955

Long held opinions yield reluctantly to fact.

As in my last interact you will find that I have given chapter and verse about Brahminical - not Hindu - persecution of Buddhists and Jains. Please revert to my last Chowk article and please read my replies to similar questions before venting your `opinion'.

And as I have said in earlier interacts I love the faiths but follow no `religion' so do not try to accuse me of religious bias. You are only trying that dirty old trick of shooting the messenger. Please stick to the message and stick to veriafiable facts.

Re: # 951

Why don't you read my last Chowk article for facts about on how severely the Buddhists and Jains were persecuted.

Tahmed # 958,

"except for BJP trying to emulate long-dead muslim invaders by destroying Babri Mosque"

Aapne hamarey statement kee hawa nikaal dee... -:)
Have a good long weekend.

Tahmed, peon of the West writes "...and "celebrate diversity" as they say in the US"

True, they "say" that because words are cheap and easy tools for manipulation but where it comes to practice, the internal segregation and wholesale imprisonment of AAs, not to mention the bigoted foreign policy and attitude towards immigrants revealed in poll after poll reveals just how "celebrating" of diversity the US is.....

#966: Ahmed,

Please tell me why is it irrational?

Isn't Pakistan fighting Jihad in Kashmir because the valley has Muslim majority? Didn't Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan destroyed Buddha statues because Islam dictates that?

Most of the Islamists have this rationality - Head you lose, tail I win! You might be an exception.

Yea, signifier-less fanatic is fine according to your logic.
Hopefully, in the future we won't see you using the baseless
term, "Hindu Fanatic".


My view is though totally opposite, I think anyone
can be any kind of fanatic. A person who takes
something (thing for which we need a signifier) on the extreme separates him from the crowd.

A person could be a religious, ethnic,
linguistic, cultural, a particular kind of wine or art(etc)
fanatic.

"Normal people can then see cultural, ethnic and religious differences as something that makes life more interesting, and "celebrate diversity" as they say in the US."

Yes, but that's confusing "accepting diversity" with
acceptance of intolerance and bigotry of a fanatic. Two
separate things, imo.

and i am sure you will take #969 seriously. :-)

#967: of course. and i see evidence of that every day on chowk.

Pro-US Statement Alert for Emperor Masadi!!

See last line of my post #965. Time for you to write a lengthy post concerning peons of the west.

""celebrate diversity" as they say in the US"

If there is a country or civilization which truly celebrated diversity, then it is none other than India.

#964 truth: while you chose a flattering nick for yourself, your post is basically irrational. i am not going to attempt to change you into a rational person. only you can do it. and when you do, then we can talk. have a good day till then. :-)

#962 and btw i refer to "islamist fanatics" too - although the adjective is misleading, per #963 below, it does provide some additional info (i.e. the religion or ethnic group in whose name the lunatic is attacking people or destroying things).

personally, i would be very pleased to simply draw the line first and foremost between fanatics and normal people. The former belong in the lunatic asylum or behind bars when they commit criminal acts.

Normal people can then see cultural, ethnic and religious differences as something that makes life more interesting, and "celebrate diversity" as they say in the US.

tahmed,

"I think it is simply stupid to assume that a religion (any religion) forces men to do criminal acts. Rather than holding the perpetrators responsible."

What is then Jihad? Why at last Panipat Muslims went and helped the invader at the last minute? Why there is Muslim Umma? Why Darfur is not mentioned by Muslim as much they scream about Kashmir and Palestine? Violence in the name of Islam to protect it and spread is good for Muslims.

These are all interlinked!

#962 RawDust: You have a good point. But then - why apply any adjective at all to a fanatic as you do ("bhayya fanatic", "tamil fanatic")? A fanatic by definition is an irrational individual, and one who ultimately does harm to everyone (even the community he claims to represent)??

Then, there would be no such thing as "Hindu Fanatic". It
could be a marathi fanatic or a bhayya fanatic or a tamil
fanatic anything but Hindu(which references to a religion).
Is that a logical extension to this:

"no, it is not hinduism. I think it is simply stupid to assume that a religion (any religion) forces men to do criminal acts."

RawDust: Have you ever, in all these years on chowk, ever seen anything from me claiming that it is hinduism that is responsible for the acts of hindu fanatics (the way hindus and even hamidm claim is true for islam)?

So, the answer to your question is obviously - no, it is not hinduism. I think it is simply stupid to assume that a religion (any religion) forces men to do criminal acts. Rather than holding the perpetrators responsible.

this is very interesting:
from #958:
"(I put this in quotes because I refuse to consider murderers and looters (like ghazni) or murderers and kingdom seekers (like babur) and plain lunatics (like aurgangzeb) to be muslims."


So, by extending this logic, would the destroyers of
Babri Masjid be called "Hindu Fanatics"?

If the answer is yes, then does that mean that
Hinduism, in your opinion, is unlike Islam inherently
intolerant ideology that prescribes destruction of
other people's religious sites.

If the answer is no, then does it mean they are
generic fanatics and there can never be, by definition,
such a thing as "Hindu Fanatic"?

Please enlighten.

Maharana,

"I am convinced now that you wear a charade of history to cover your prejudices about Indian culture.
Adios'

I am new to Chowk and have not read all the posts. Does this site keep biographical info on its writers. It seems he is married to a Hindu lady. Some of the posts here were asking Baig Sahab about how he raised his family. Did he answered those questons some where earlier? The guy had it right, we need to know the qualification of so called experts who can lead and direct the discussion.

Anyway, this all is going to be of no consequence. Majority of the youth is participating in the growth of shinning India. They are irreligious and are not going to care about history. Muslims in India have come to realization that they have to get Hinduized to survive in this globalized world. We need to make sure that the Hindus should not get too westernized that the social fabric in India starts getting torn apart due to divorces and extreme individualism.

Maharana #955 "Apart from the evidences of temples being destroyed by islamic invaders there has not been a single case of a buddhist or jain temples being destroyed by Hindus. "

..except for BJP trying to emulate long-dead muslim invaders by destroying Babri Mosque..

but your point wrt history is correct as far as i know - visiting Lahore museum when I was in school, i was surprised to see a large proportion of them with noses missing. I was told that this was the work of ancient "muslim" invaders. (I put this in quotes because I refuse to consider murderers and looters (like ghazni) or murderers and kingdom seekers (like babur) and plain lunatics (like aurgangzeb) to be muslims.

Folks, Mr Baig's repeated assertion of the persecution of Jains and Buddhists at the hands of the Hindus/Brahmins reminds me of an earlier article on chowk by Veeresh Malik, a common friend, I believe, of Baig saheb and mine. Veeresh continued to insist that there are no pharmacists in Islamabad even after repeated denial by many Pakistanis who were quite familiar with Rawalpindi.

Eklavya,

"Muslims and non-Muslims are at different levels of consciousness, so marriages between the two must be controlled."

Might be! Proportion of Muslim girls getting higher education is slowly increasing and they are finding it little harder to find similarly educated Muslim boys in India. They are marrying Hindu boys for education and also for security from Talaq. Hindu boys find them more conservative and safe bate in general. So win-win for both. There was recently a poll taken in Bangal by a radio station, many Muslim girls called to tell that they prefer Hindu boys for many reasons. Shining India Zindabad!

Murad,
# 948.

You conveniently labeled my post 'interesting' for all the details I have provided that show that your assertion of 'one God' concept in Hinduism enters only after 7th century AD as false. Your comments about Hinduism destroying and persecuting the Buddhists and Jains in India are not new. I have heard it from other Indian muslims as mere gossip to cover their own ancsetors misdeeds. Perhaps these muslims like you feel that by claiming that hindus commited the same 'sins' we all become 'is hamam main hum sub nangey hain'.
Apart from the gossip of some muslims there is no historian who has uncovered any evidence anywhere that has even remotely suggested any form of persecution of these groups of people. When you continuously peddle a baseless hypothesis as fact it merely unveils your own prejudices and motives.
I have been to most of the famous historical places in India. Apart from the evidences of temples being destroyed by islamic invaders there has not been a single case of a buddhist or jain temples being destroyed by Hindus. I am convinced now that you wear a charade of history to cover your prejudices about Indian culture.
Adios

"Mughals had Janana which included wives, slaves, keeps etc of in hundreds."

Because of this women became a property, at best piece of art. Chodhavi Ka Chand in face! Face and physical beauty only mattered. Her mind and her other skills did not matter. Wonder if the cruelty and warfare among Mughal siblings is because of this crying undeveloped womb.

"marriage should happen among the two beings of same level of consciousness"

I am done with this 'discussion' but must point out that a Muslim can say exactly the same thing with regard to Islamic mandates: Muslims and non-Muslims are at different levels of consciousness, so marriages between the two must be controlled.

"Can a dalit marry Brahmin?"

Can a dog marry a bat? Marriage should happen among the two beings of same level of consciousness so that they both progess spiritually which includes materially. Nature takes care of this by making those people fall in love. With advent of Muslims the definition of love changed. It became more of lust because of physical attributes. In Mughals had Janana which included wives, slaves, keeps etc of in hundreds.

How is that Christianity and Judaism also having the same substrate of doctarines as Islam forbids lustful behaviour where as Islam seems to promote or at least looks other way? Is it because those religions have different role models to follow and are not merely book religions?

Baig,

"They were all important milestones but the violent destruction of the Buddhists and severe persecution of the Jains took place much earlier on a wave of Brahminical revivalism."

Is there a temple built on top of Dhamma Sthal or Jain temple? Is there any evidence of Hindu king attacking a Jain or Buddhist kingdom just becaue it is ruled or populated by people of other faith?

No one in his right mind can believe in what you are saying.

Important question to ask is why these lies are being spread? Is it to equate Hindus or native religions to the religions forced on Indians? What will it achieve? Will it make native non-book-people not react to the act of violence in the form of terrorism and appeasement by the political parties to the people of book in the form of subsidies and reservations? In fact by spreading such lies you are doing disservice. Hindus will have one more stick, i.e. book-people historians are publishing and teaching false history.

Giving other cheak is much more violent act than resisting the attacker. Flexed muscle is real non-violence!

Baig#948:

". They were all important milestones but the violent destruction of the Buddhists and severe persecution of the Jains took place much earlier on a wave of Brahminical revivalism."

That's merely an assertion and will remain an assertion until documentary evidence is produced to show that
(a) such persecution took place
(b) Brahmins incited this persecution quoting their scriptures.

"Much can be blamed on `Muslim' (I prefer Arab, Afghan, Turk, Persian or Mongol) invaders after the 12th cntury and reactions to their undoubted violence at different...."

Why not Muslim? Isn't their evidence that they used the Quran and the precedents set by their Prophet to justify their acts, just as contemporary jihadis are doing? The only difference now is that Muslims living as minorities now try to create a distance between their acts and their religion.

# 948

Arabs had captured and destroyed temple in Moolasthan (Multan) in early 8th century . That might have triggered the chnage in hinduism to defend itself.

Answer is in your question . Evolutionary religions need to change to take on new adversaries. I guess hindus have the basic right

Re: # 945

Very true. They were all important milestones but the violent destruction of the Buddhists and severe persecution of the Jains took place much earlier on a wave of Brahminical revivalism.

I use the word `Brahminical' and not `Hindu' because there is considerable evidence that most native sects (that were much later fused together into a generalised word Hindu) were not involved. But highly motivated Brahmins reinvented the Rajput caste with many willing rulers to do their destruction for them.

So my question remains how and why did this happen? Much can be blamed on `Muslim' (I prefer Arab, Afghan, Turk, Persian or Mongol) invaders after the 12th cntury and reactions to their undoubted violence at different times but what triggered the change between the 7th and 12th centuries?

masanmuthu#946:

What you say really disproves what I have been saying (unless your friend is a Muslim). It means that a Mullah was able to read the Nikah of a Muslim girl with a Non-Muslim boy. If he has done that, there should soon be a fatwa against him.

Can a dalit marry Brahmin?
A brahmin boy can marry inside or outside religion wise low High
Can a brahmin woman marry lower caste Man ?


Are these hypothetical questions?. There are numerous instances of such weddings and I have a list of school friends married with all different combinations of castes and religions.

Infact recently, one of my friends married a Bangladeshi Muslim and he had three weddings, one Muslim wedding in a mosque, one Hindu wedding in a temple, and another in the town hall. :-)

Baig#941:
"I do not claim that this is an ABSOLUTE truth and invite readers to inform us all of how and when `Hinduism' changed from a gentle inclusive faith to a aggressive exclusive religion intolerant to other thought."

Hinduism has not become aggressive, so your question itself is wrong. Yes, some Hindus have become more defensive in protecting themselves against an overt and covert assault on their 'tribe'.

They changed when:
-Guru Gobind Singh raised Khalsa to protect against forcible conversions by Aurangzeb;
-Shivaji raised the slogan of Hindu Rashtra against the same emperor;
-When Raja Ram Mohan Roy tried to get rid of some regressive practices;
-Swami Dayanand introduced the concept of allowing "reversion" to Hindu religion;
and sadly, they changed again when:
-Savarkar introduced the concept of two nations;
-When Advani introduced the concept of demolishing masjids allegedly built on Hindu temples; and
-Modi introduced the concept of allowing the murder of innocent Muslims in retaliation for the burning of a train at Godhra.

corrections to #943:

I meant permitted ways to expand dar-ul-islam (not harb).
Should have said muslim acts of terrorism (not islamic)

muradbaig#939:

I had read that fatwa and this is exactly what I had said, namely that any Mullah will perform a nikah of a hindu girl with a muslim but not the other way around; indeed this is one of the four permitted ways of expanding dar-ul-harb as the children would be raised as muslims (what eklavya calls the 'penis jihad'). In the case of this fatwa, the asymmetry lies in what he did not say. He said that it was illegal to convert a girl for the purpose of marriage but did not say that it was illegal to convert a boy for the same purpose; if anyone has said that, please let us know.

I had read that statement about terrorism and had applauded a similar fatwa issued by a larger assembly in february in an article here at chowk. But once again, one has to notice the nuances of such statements; everyone is against terrorism, that is a motherhood statement and I am sure OBL will say the same; but while such statements explicitly condemn state terrorism of the kind in Iraq (and in Kashmir while outside India), they fail to explicitly mention islamic acts of terrorism, such as the attacks on 9/11 or the more recent ones in Jabalpur and Benaras. Therein lies the ambivalence.

Sir (murad baig)#941
You say:-
"In this short article I try show how a horrible fear generating intrusive jewish god was to so influence Christianity and Islam and `suggest' that this influence distorted the mostly gentle stream of native thought after the 7th century AD."

Can you analyse this statement? Was jewish God already there before Christianity and Islam came on scene or this God suddenly came to INFLUENCE already existing Christianity and Islam. The way you have constructed the sentence it gives the impression that christianity and Islam were not later entrants to middle east religions
in continuation of jewish ideas but were ORIGINAL BRAND NEW philosophies which GOT INFLUENCED BY jewish God who came on scene later.
It just reminded me of your earlier faux pas pointed out by Mr. Eklavaya about DARK AGES of Hinduism but when it comes to ISLAM, it was AFGHAN AND TURK domination.

Will you please clarify what exactly you meant in #941?

Regards

Re: # 937

Dear Eklava. You are wrong I hate the word hate and hate all religions and ideas that breed hatred.

How can I hate Hindu or Hinduism?

If I hated Hinduism would I have visited and appreciated almost all the important Hindu temples from Amarnath to Rameshwaram?

Could I have had such a love for the philosophies of the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita?

If the word HINDU was coined by the Persians in the 6th century BC to describe all the people of the river Sindhu (The persians could not pronounce S so Sindhu became Hindu)than all the people of Pakistan and India are Hindu.

If you re read my Chowk article (7 September 06)on Hinduism you will see that the word Hindu was a shifting label over the centuries moving from tribal origins to Vedic, Puranic, Ram/ Krishna and other phases.

Till the British period the word Hindu had only meant a `native' non muslim and it was only in 1826 that Ram Mohun Roy used the word Hindu to mean a native religion when he was the first to try to unify a number of different streams of thought and custom. So strictly speaking there were no Hindus till this time.

For most of its career Hindu ideas were compassionate, gentle and inclusive (trying to absorb ideas from others). In this short article I try show how a horrible fear generating intrusive jewish god was to so influence Christianity and Islam and `suggest' that this influence distorted the mostly gentle stream of native thought after the 7th century AD.

I do not claim that this is an ABSOLUTE truth and invite readers to inform us all of how and when `Hinduism' changed from a gentle inclusive faith to a aggressive exclusive religion intolerant to other thought.

As I said befort do not try to shoot the messenger please examine the message.

Re: # 939

You will be very interested to learn that the Dar-Ul-Ulum, Deoband, the most revered centre for Islamic law in India and Pakistan, issued a fatwa last week that the conversion of a hindu girl for marriage to a muslim boy was illegal and against the Shariat. It ruled that conversions must be a matter of faith and not for coveting something (a husband).I wonder, however, how many of the many thousand mullahs in India and Pakistan will accept this fatwa.

Last month the Dar-Ul-Ulum gave an even more significant fatwa declaring that terrorism including suicide bombing was strictly against Islam that was a religion of peace.

TOLKNIN#929:

Long time. Where have you been?

I would like to give you a detailed response. First of all, if the point was relevant in the past, it is still relevant since there has been no change in Islam. Let me assure you that the issue relates to islam and not muslims; most moderate muslims try to take an easy way out by blaming everything on mullahs instead of taking the bull by its horns.

First, one cannot compare Islam with Hindu religions; Islam has a Book and a Role Model which acts as definite guideline and boundaries for individual and group behaviours, it is meaningless to compare it with a religion which cannot even be defined and which consists of ever-changing rituals and traditions. Let me give an extreme example; do you think that hindus would have been able to give up sati if it was held mandatory in a hindu equivalent of the quran? or could Nehru completely overhaul the hindu civil law in 1956 if the earlier law was based on an incontrovertible book instead of some obscure Manusmriti which most of us educated hindu chowkies had not even heard of until we were educated about the same at chowk itself?

But it is quite valid to talk about the Hindu society. It is true that the society followed rigid caste rules regarding marriage, but these rules seem to be constantly changing. To give an example from my very traditional middle class family, my parents were married not only within their caste but also within the small endogamous subset of khatris. I too got married with another khatri but not within the same subset. My nephews and nieces have married both within and outside their caste and language groups and in one case a Muslim - and all with the blessings of their parents. The priest had no problem performing the marriage ceremonies in any case, including that of the niece marrying a muslim. As against this, you will not find any Mulla who will be able to perform a nikah of a Muslim girl with a Hindu boy without his first converting to Islam. Yes, it is still rare for a dalit to marry an upper caste hindu but, when this does happen, there is no dearth of a brahmin priest who will solemnise the marriage. And as far as dalits are concerned, let me assure you that a Muslim bhangi would have at least as much difficulty if not more, as a Hindu bhangi, in marrying with an "upper caste" Muslim.

And let me emphasize that we are talking about the issue of religions themselves and not of the people. The attitude of the Hindus in this matter is no different than that of the Muslims; there was recently a well publicised case of a Hindu industrialist who had a Muslim boy murdered for marrying his daughter and one routinely reads about Hindu parents and groups lodging complaints of "kidnapping" against Muslim boys when their daughter decides to marry a Muslim.

I completely agree with you that Muslim boys in India have more important things to worry about than marrying a Hindu girl; I would go further and say that most of them marry not only a Muslim but also a Muslim of the same "caste" and in the rare case of someone marrying a Hindu gir, he does so only in the face of stiff opposition from family and friends.

#936 TOLKININ

[Ajeya your bet is wrong .i just returned back co incidently .]

Let's see if you survive to complete the debate.

[There is religion wise reatriction Can a dalit marry Brahmin?]

You are trying to miss the point. A dalit not being able to marry a brahmin has NOTHING to do with preventing people from leaving a religion. So it is not a relevant comparison. However, if you are a Dalistan.org fanatic, then all roads lead to this argument.

Also, this custom is the same for men AND women. For Muslims it is not. BECAUSE Islam is trying to PREVENT conversion to another religion.

In Hinduism the motivation is something like social injustice WITHIN the religion. In Islam, it is trying to GROW the religion, and PREVENT anyone from leaving the religion.

There lies the difference.

But of course, you'll never get this. Muslims have been brainwashed from birth.

[Can a brahmin woman marry lower caste Man ?]

It is interesting - that as a lower caste man you posed this question instead of "Can a Brahmin man marry a lower-caste woman?". Shows your true Dalistan.org colours.

[If a Hindu male wants to marry Muslim Girl he can in multi cultural country like in India.]

He can, but he will live in constant threat to his life. Because of this ever-present threat from the adherents of the "religion of peace", the Hindu man almost always converts to Islam, in India.

Murad bhai # 935

I don't know what PM thinks of that answer but that must be the silliest response to his specific question one can come up with.


This is where matters rest.

You are NOT a Buddhist. You worship your cosmic force.

You hatred of Hindus and Hinduism is blind and total. I am surpised to find you are actually married to a Hindu woman. Hope it is not a personal remark but it is odd to see so much hatred of Hindus and Hinduism combined with being married to a Hindu woman.

----------

Murad bhai, Hindus reading your works are likely to abuse (justly), but they are likely to abuse all Muslims (wrongly) even though you claim not be a Muslim.

Why do you insist on giving Muslims a bad name?? Do you really think your efforts have no consequences for Muslims?

Re: # 932
Ajeya your bet is wrong .i just returned back co incidently .

There is religion wise reatriction Can a dalit marry Brahmin?

A brahmin boy can marry inside or outside religion wise low High

Can a brahmin woman marry lower caste Man ?

If a Hindu male wants to marry Muslim Girl he can in multi cultural country like in India.Why it is so important to know if it is possible Afghanistan or not b/c it is just theoretical discussion no hindu to seek muslim women as in most Muslim majority countries.

In countries like Usa Britain U.K.they can be registerd to be married when gay lebanese can ?

Brahmin canmary Low or High .Whatdalit is to do Ristricted to Dalit .Is that not impossible situation b/c religously Brahmin girl is not to be married to Dalit .

Re: # 916

No I curse no one.

There have to be bad times along with good times for which one should mainly blame oneself or one's own inability the influence those around us. I believe that the myth about the power of curses is just as stupid as the myth about the power of miracles that are products of the idea of an `intrusive' god as in many minds.

I basically believe in the four Buddhist virtues of:
1. Friendliness to all.
2. Joy. to try to find and give as much joy as is possible.
3. Compassion to try to conquer the anger and fear of others.
4. Equinamity.

The four Buddhist vices are equally relevant:
1. Non injury to life and to not hurt others even with hurtful words.
2. No false speech. Not even half truths and white lies.
3. To not take what is not give. More than theft even forcably taking what is ones `legal' or `social' right causes injury.
4. Physical or mental torture.

I believe in the Buddhist idea of Karma where we all unconsciously know our good and bad deeds and it is this joy or guilt that affects our souls in its passage through lifetimes.

#931 by Eklavya

And further, the reason I feel optimistic is because of the internet. The nemesis of any kind of totalitarian thought is open discussion and dissent. Totalitarian thought requires "submission" - complete and total obedience. With dissent punished by measures that we have seen for 1400 years. The internet allows for a platform where people can dissect the various evils of Islam without the adherents of this peaceful religion trying to hack them to pieces (the other 80% of the adherents of this peaceful religion usually cheer from the sidelines).

#931 by Eklavya

Completely agree. Except that I think (or rather hope) that humanity, or the non-Islamic interpretation of it, will prevail in the end. Maybe I am being irrationally sentimental. It is true that listening to Indians, Americans, Europeans etc. around me, I see little hope of that. But then hope springs eternal in the "human" breast.

#928 TOLKININ

[DM sb I undersand you point from past .But isnt there is similar restriction among practicing Hindu not be able to marry Any one .]

No there is not. Also, the rules are the same for men and women. In Islam it is different rules for men and women - to prevent anyone from converting OUT of the "religion".

I can bet that at this point of the discussion, like all good muslims, you will quietly disappear, because you realize that are wrong, but as a Muslim, cannot admit it.

"How can an 'other' accept?"

DM ji, others don't have to accept at all (either individually or in groups), but as groups, they will, invariably.

That's what a powerful ideology is - it operates at the level of groups, and individual opposition (or the opposition of a small number of people) to it makes almost no difference to final outcomes.

In the specific example you mentioned, there will always be non-Muslim women (and even men) who would dismiss the asymmetry you mentioned as irrelevant. They would do this on their own, without any prodding from Muslims. And would defend their 'right' to perpetrate it. So, in this case again, as in almost every case I have considered, there is no way to stop the advance of Islam on other groups.

I wanted to point out that non-Muslims themselves facilitate that advance. They do so with passion and enthusiasm, in pursuit of whatever values they themselves might hold important.

That's the power and the beauty of it.

replying #927,

Deception is inbuilt in Islam:-)

As I said earlier, Islam is political religion, it is for grabbing people and lands everywhere. Intellect is enemy of Islam, so it can never survive in Islamic lands.

So even if you replace the existing set of muslims with brand new highly intelligent muslims, you will see an amazingly quick degradation.

If you try to have a unbiased look at Islam (means when you don't try to be humble an don't care how many people around you are muslims), you can't say anything definitely good about Islam but you can say things that are bad for certain.

And I ask several questions to show how Islam hijacks muslims and not the other way round. Murad Baig will be happy in saying otherwise all the time. He can write any number of articles in saying that muslims hijacked Islam, but all those arguments in such articles are good for only people who are very economical with reasoning and are not for intelligent people. It seems his non-practicing is half hearted he is still not out of his ego attached to and constantly hurt by what Islam is.

There is no way an un-biased person will reason that Islam gets hijacked by muslims. Muslims got hijacked by Islam from the very beginning.

Re: # 925
Laddu ji if any body is plate Pisser its YOU .

I salute the Indian Hindu Muslim And otherIndia who do not think like you .Murad is more comfartable with Indians than Pseudo 'Indian' like you taking away from country being even less than the soldier and farmers remainig in India running the day to day work of country .They actually dont have issue .you in your right are no less than violent jehadist dhimmitude terorising militant in stigating than Jinnah your nemesis

.If you have issue with Saudi Arabia Or pakistan take agun & fight wih them.

You are Sanatan dharmi good .how is it that any other dharam(religion ) according to you are less. There might be all the beuties in any dharam but non practitioneer do not see it .Why dont you stop your public soul searching trying to find for your self to some where .while not maurading everthing else inits like a elephant .

I know you are good person and just playing devil advocte in your free time so peace

May be every artice ,reference written by him has been biased wrong and fabricated .Its no ore than or even less than graphic put down on U.P.
or f.P is the finals and U.P. the semi finals .more crucial to score the final goal in the F.P. ..Rainbow ikon

Re: # 927
DM sb I undersand you point from past .But isnt there is similar restriction among practicing Hindu not be able to marry Any one .As i understand a preist or society will sanction marriage of higher caste (brahmin) boy with lower caste girl if they agree .I do not know if Muslim boy marries lower caste or not .But moulvi des not ask the bride to be of higher caste

Of course the marriage act renders both hindu & muslim couple free from Preist or Nikah karoing Moulvi .

If the musliml start thinking like brahmin it would be worst b/c the moulvi will become like hindu purohits more selective of the bride.

Life is no pic nic for nonmuslim in Hindu dominated country .Its not by choice they are stuck in this rut.its of question of having to be under microscope of Majority .

There are far more basic requirement for muslim than marry hindu girl.

eklavya:

". In many ways, it is as irresistable a force to 'others' as it is for its own adherents"

How can any self-respecting 'others' accept this? Muradbhai would have had no problem finding a maulvi to do his nikah with a hindu girl (presuming he did have a nikah, which he may or may not have) but his sister (presuming he has one) would never find a mullah to do a nikah with a hindu boy (presuming she wanted to), and this in a predominantly hindu country. Murad and other apologists of islam will blame it on the mullahs and not accept that this (what you call 'penis jihad') is embedded in the religion itself. This is why a non-practising Jinnah could marry the daughter of a Parsee but disowned his daughter when she wanted to marry a parsee boy.

PM Bhai,

I guess, in capturing that sense of perfection the closest one comes, in another situation, would be something like a 'perfect strategy' in game theoretic framework. Essentially, such a strategy would (1) address ALL possible situations (be most comprehensive), and (2) be designed to assure ultimate victory/domination in every case.

Depending upon one's pov, such a strategy must appear as greatest or the most perfect evil, or the greatest and most perfect good, beauty, or truth.

There is no point in discussion. Against plate pissers what works is Danda. Putin's Russia and the PRC have despite the ummah, managed to crush the islamists in Chechnya and Xinjiang

Muradbhai,

Islamist come in many shades. The deadly one is the one who is non-precticing, eg Draculla, Qayde Azam. Islam stands for Imperialim.

Until you tell us more about how you raised / are raising your kids, your essays are merely talk of what flavour of ice cream you like, what decor you like in Janana and which restaurant's buryani you like. All those things are nice to know but not useful to humanity.

Your words on Bramhinism or Sanatan Dharma is only rhetoric played to the gallery of bullshitters like you.

Re: # 922 Pappuji says: "Truth is god for me."

And I say you are one funny pappu!

Middle finger to God/Truth,

Truth is god for me. When you do not face and accept, I feel you are not golden finger but showing middle finger to the truth/god.

PM,

"Pappu bhai, surely the value of a 1,400 year old system and culture must be judged on more than "its" performance in a mere decade??"

The decade is easy to tackle in terms of physical evidences and we dont have to rely on some king's Nama. Abrahmic religions are merely legions for exploitation, slavery and imperialism. Instead of some relying on history written by paid writers, I would rather backtrack for present reality. Is there a Muslim democracy? It's even dificult to have democracy where there is staunch Catholicism.

Re: # 914 Says pappuji: "Middle finger to God,

An individual did a crime and getting punishment for it. What does it have to with their ethnicity? Answer this question:

Followers of which religion/dharma/ism/faith have have killed/harmed innocent people of other faith at the place of their worship, in last decade?

Do you see Islam in the mirror?"

Well pappuji in case you were trying to rile my emotions by invoking religious insults like "middle finger to God" etc please don't waste your efforts, because I personally think all religions are a bunch of fairy tales, and I think I can't bring myself around to believing in any one of the fairy tales, and I am quite un-fazed by such invocations. I don't care whether you feel that your soul is cleansed more by drinking a cup of golden urine, or it is by banging your head on the floor 5 times a day, which are personal things between you and whatever you believe in...what matters is the being inside. Religions have caused the worst strife throughout history and thus to human life...and probably more strife has been caused by those who profess Christianity than any other religion, may be even in the last decade as well, if you wish to judge it from then. This probably has to do with who wields more power at what time. Your kind, not being the aggressive fighting types have always relied more on your skills of trickery and treachery. Once, as I already told you, were times when the sect of "Thugs" was in ascendancy practicing their tricks of guile and treachery or "thuggee", who were past masters at befriending people and then killing them with a silk handkerchief after gaining their total trust, and the Guinness book of world records credits this sect,which actually was a band of organized serial killers with 2000,000 deaths over the ages. These thugs worshiped the Black Goddess called Kali. Thus no religion has its hands free from the blood of others...some by force and conquests, some by guile and treachery.

As for the individual's crime, you yourself were producing individual Pakistani criminals from the west to me and saying that Indians don't commit crimes but Pakistanis do, and I just wanted to present proof to you that Indians do it too!

Muradbhai,

Your post 915 is like 8/11/47 speech of the draculla. Lot of nice sounding empty words! Draculla sucked the blood of millons and because of him common Pakistani poor Abdul is still suffering and rich Ahmed is selling his mother.

Instead of this std X essay, would you please answer the questions I asked, so that we would know you are not yet another plate pissser Islamist. Tell us more about how you raised your kids so that they turn out into the rootless/cultureless draculla or Pandher of Noida. Tomorrow even Pandher from Stephen College can come and give us lecture on beef/port eating, architecure, human anatomy and secularism. Tell us more about progressive actions you have taken to treat your wife equally, to reach out to the majority of the land and contributed to enlihtenment of te majority or your wife's community. Did you conduct science fair at your wife's native village on the day of Dassahara or Ganesh Chaturthi?

"All the professional priests also dissuaded their followers from music and art and in enjoying themselves instead of spending time at their places of worship. Even Coffee houses were banned in Europe."

Make a small correction "proiests" to "priests of Abrahmic religions". Indian music, dance, painting, sculpture and drama is originated in temple. http://www.nadsadhna.com/originofindianmusic.html
http://www.hss.iitb.ac.in/cou rses/HS450/notes2.htm

Tell us more about your "worship", hope it's not war-ship against the native culture and plain old plate pissing.

Rest of your post is full pf too many "I" wale sentences. Are you some shehenshah?

Eklavya sahib,

re. #912, you were more than lucid. Thanks so much for taking the time.

If I may summarize (just to ensure I understand), you seem to be saying that (1) Islam is eminently internally consistent, (2) addresses the human situation in a wholesome manner, and (3) addresses its role w.r.t outsiders quite comprehensively.

I quite agree with the first two points, and even, in a sense, with the third. Only, I can't quite understand the use of the word 'perfect' with the third. Is everything that attempts, and almost reaches, comprehensiveness 'perfect'?

re. pappu #914:
"Followers of which religion/dharma/ism/faith have have killed/harmed innocent people of other faith at the place of their worship, in last decade?"

Pappu bhai, surely the value of a 1,400 year old system and culture must be judged on more than "its" performance in a mere decade??

re. muradbaig, #915

Amen to most of that, bro!

I don't quite get this, tho: "I pray to it wherever I am to thank it for giving me a full and rewarding life and to empower me to be a active and good person."

Would you then, by the same token, curse it were your personal circumstances not so hunkydory? This is a very real question for me.

Or are your 'thanks' merely an example of doing what makes you, ultimately, feel happier, more relaxed, cheerful, and t that the world makes some sense after all?

Re: # 838

Further to this interact I would like to also say that I also find no innate sanctity in the material things that all religions promote. What is spiritual about not eating pork, beef, shellfish, or drinking or smoking, etc? These were only practical hygienic advice in ancient times.

All the professional priests also dissuaded their followers from music and art and in enjoying themselves instead of spending time at their places of worship. Even Coffee houses were banned in Europe.

I admire the art and architecture of churches, mosques and temples but do not find anything sacred about them as priests want us to believe. They are not the `houses of god' but houses where priests get rich. God is too big to be confined to any house.

I enjoy the charming myths found in the traditions of all religions but do not consider them sacred. Frequently exaggerated myths about the enemies of their religion have led to huge religious bloodshed over the centuries.

I do not also respect most of the priests of all religions who claim to be `the sole selling agents' of their brands of god. But I do endorse all religious traditions or good priests who encourage human understanding and brotherhood.

I do worship that nameless, formless cosmic force that is the source of life but do not believe that it is a wish fulfiling, prayer answering machine that pries into my personal life. I pray to it wherever I am to thank it for giving me a full and rewarding life and to empower me to be a active and good person.

Middle finger to God,

An individual did a crime and getting punishment for it. What does it have to with their ethnicity? Answer this question:

Followers of which religion/dharma/ism/faith have have killed/harmed innocent people of other faith at the place of their worship, in last decade?

Do you see Islam in the mirror?

Muradbhai, Have not heard from you! Take your sweet time. Do not forget to do the readings which Ladduji asked.

Ladduji, I feel one needs to practice an ism for considerable amount of time and talk from personal experience. Dharma is something to be lived and not talked about. There are not Ek Dukka but many who indulge in meaningless circular arguments. It's shear intellectual diarrihea. What do you think? It's the One God Abrahmic religion stupid! Real bane to this beautiful world!

==========Muradbhai==================
"But please note that though I have a Muslim name I am a non practicing Muslim who does not believe in any religion."

We can not see what you practice in your mind or not. What you practice will show up in your action. I googled for your articles on this CMS, DostMitra told that you are married to a Hindu lady practicing or nonpracticing. We would know a lot about you if you answer following:

1. Did you or your wife decide to change her name to a Islamic one? Does she carry your last name? We know you are not carrying her last name.

2. What are the names of your kids? Which schools do they attend to. Do they attend Hindi medium schools where Indian culture is taught? Indian culture means Hindustani Music, Dances such as Bharat Natyam etc. Are they learning Sanskrit? Taken some effort to learn Vedic Maths? Do they regualrly visit Indian temples and historical places, even pilgrimage places suchas Prayag, Nasik (Trayambekeshwar), Rameshwar etc.? Do they participate in local Ganesh Puja, Durga Puja and ShivJayanti? Are they passionate about stopping pollution of Ganga? Can they sing Kabirs dohes?

Answers to these questons will give us an idea about where you come from. We do not want yet another foreigner tell us who we are when his own community is way below us in most of the indices of human development.

No malice intended!



"The same goes for ISLAM. I try to never speak of Islamic architcture, art, scripts, culture or atrocities because these were not the creations of the religion but the good and bad activities of numerous people like the Arabs, Persians, Mongols, Afghans Turks, etc."

Since you claim to be historian, do you know who were the architect of TajMahal (TejoMahal), so called Qutub Minar? Is it realistically possible for taliaban if it ever conquered midwest of USA to build Sears Towers. You will have to find how it was funded by Sears and Roebock company and the chief structural engineer of the architectural firm was a Bengali Muslim. You should also study how these monuments for deads made living peasants and workers poor. Vain Rajputs and Mughals did not see what was happening in europe at that time. May be Mughals still thought that they were foreigners in this land, and had no intention of being protector of culture of this land and well being of all citizens.
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"The same can be said for Divali, Holi, Naoroz, Passover, etc. Many were honest celebrtations of spring and autumn harvests and the religious fairy tales are unnecessary."

On the first day of Diwali Narkasur was killed. When kids get up early at 4 AM and before taking bath (given by the parents) they crush with their feet symbolic Naraksur, once ego, jealosy and other mental traits which can make a family disfunctional. What is harm in such a ritual? It's not stepping on someone else rights and freedom. If you complain about pollution of all kinds due to fire crackers then you have a point. Have you done something about it?
There are similar events (may be mythical to you) with Holy, Dassahara and Muharram.
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"But raking the old ashes in the present time to forment more sectarian strife is deplorable. "

But not raking the old ashes in the present time so that equal-eaual can be done between religions and dharmas to make people rootless and cultureless is a crime against humanity. It is Mao style destruction of culture. Keep it in mind that India is democracy not because of JN or JNU but because of Dharmic mooring of the Indian culture.
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"I also hate the mythification of all the prophets, apostles, saints, sages, sacred dreams, etc., that have distorted the words of the founders in all religions."

What you call myths is Itihaas for us. It wets our hearts so that we can be rooted in culture. Culture is fluid. Dry intellectualization can create monsters such as effery dahmer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer and culture destroyers and brain eaters such as Romilla. In your own neck of the woods, a Bishop Cotton school graduate, Pandher, turns into a serial murderer because of rootless-ness and cultureless-ness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moninder_Singh_Pandher

The real meaning of the word will get freshly revealed to you when you become wordless.
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#841 Posted by pappu on June 30, 2008 5:45:02 am
Muradbhai,

"The practitioners of all religions did many violent and evil things in the holy name of their gods. "

All or some! Violent and evil things were done by Abrahmic religions except Judaism. You are right, Dharmas are not religions! Sanatan Dharma, Bouddha Dharma, Jaina Dharma and Sikh Dharma have not done violent and evil things in the holy name of their gods. Except in recent past Bhindranwale gave bad name to Sikh Dharma by his karnames.

Whom you might be calling ugly duckling among the ducklings of religions is actually a Dharma of a swan type.
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#840 Posted by pappu on June 30, 2008 5:34:47 am
Muradbhai,

PM, if you leave your comments here I will read them later (tomorrow, possibly). Goodnight to you and everyone else for now.

Hey PM!! Such a long time! Glad I checked back. And to find you in the company of Cheema bhai! He has been a great addition to Chowk. :)


------------

nkg, I will have to read that and consider your pov a little more. In general, I have no qualms accepting that brahmins were often good people and did wonderful things. I am also loathe to shift any of the 'blame' to anyone else (Islam or anything else). Nor is comparison of any interest (for instance, caste sytem was not as bad as slavery). The focus is solely on the system of ideas that seems (and in practice, you would agree, was) very discriminatory.

But I haven't carefully read your post - this one or other ones earlier - so may be we can take this up later. Thanks.

---------------------

PM, IMHO, that perfection has three basic dimensions: (1) first related to the faith/book's inner structure itself, (2) second related to how it relates to its adherents/believers, (3) third related to how it relates to those who are not its adherents/believers.

Perfection of Inner Structure: in that once one accepts a few fundamentals (on faith alone), Quran (and in genral, Islam) basically grabs you, pulls you in, into its own inner logic. Everything falls in place in a most self-evident, internally consistent manner. To those who really have faith (In Allah, Last Prophet, Quran), it would be the clearest, 'simplest' book to read/religion to follow. The faithful will see no contradictions, face no confusions at all. As such it is beyond any need to ever change anything in it, nothing need be added, or subtracted. Doing so will destroy that inner perfection.

Many can make the very same argument for other faith-based religions. But Quran's perfection is unique in the utter comprehensiveness and naturalness of its human scope, as highlighted below:

(2) Perfection of Relationship to Believers: Quran/Islam does indeed create a 'total' system for human living. Both in this world and for salvation in the next. -

And it does so keeping the very human concerns - politics - at its very core (instead of trying to either excise them from human experience or trying to control them - as many other religions do). By seemlessly combining the material and the divine, in fact, it essentially makes the two one and the same - deprecating any (false?) dichotomy between the political and the spiritual.

In so doing, it explicitly and unabashedly cares for the 'total man.' (I have in mind a comparison with a religion like buddhism - which is a partial religion - since it doesn't meet many very human needs).

None of this, of course, would be remotely true if one did not have full faith. Without faith, there will be utter confusion, and a constant, unsuccessful, desire to separate the political from the spiritual.

(3) Perfection of Relationship with Non-Adherents: I don't know of any other religion that provide a totally comprehensive system for relating with 'others.' May be Judaism does, I don't know that religion at all. Nor is any other religion so conscious of the others and of its own ultimate role and position vis a vis these others. In many ways, it is as irresistable a force to 'others' as it is for its own adherents. For, there seem to be very little outsiders can do to stop its march just as those who are inside it can almost never really fully escape it.


OK, I wrote this almost without a break and it is surely is poorly written, but hopefully the basic thoughts were conveyed. And hey, good to see you back, PM.

replaying #904 Posted by akcheema,

Dear akcheema,
muslims as a group are different only because they follow ideology of Islam. No other difference across such vast geography is more relevant. A highly intelligent muslim will be no different from any other highly intelligent person, because religion can not confine high inteligence. But high-intelligence is rarity, so commoners will be affected by the essence of Islamic thoughts.

Essence of Islam is a political ideology that uses God as its weapon of fear to make people surrender to it, to make its group bigger. It is very lethal, because fear of God is since history a huge fear, it is fear of almighty:-)

Hindus have suffered much more than muslims but you can check the difference between the two easily. It is not that easy to ignore this difference, in future even muslims won't be able to ignore it.

your statement:
How can one make something bad if it was meant to be perfect to start off with??

doesn't make much sense to me. You can not think something is perfect just because you wished. What started as perfect?
Perfect is too good a word, the whole humanity will not be able to define what it means and God doesn't understand it either:-) God doesn't like this word perfect, instead prefers "infinite", perfect needs a specification to compare against. Nobody has that. Nothing can ever start as perfect, if something has to be perfect it has to be the infinity and it as a whole doesn't start or stop or do (things happen inside this perfection not "to this perfection").

replying #779

Eklawya, I can defend Brahmins if you want. They did very well indeed, in all spheres. They let hinduism evolve and it is they, who initiated most reforms.

Also, Murad-Baig is plain wrong, the caste system was not exploited by Brahmins. You don't find anything against Shudra before Manu-Smriti (which as per Murad-Baig is around 200 AD). So in all of Vedic history of hinduism from 1500BC to say 200AD you don't see any discrimination against anybody and if you don't know I can tell you that Brahmins were all this time still making the rules of so called Hinduism. In one earlier post of mine I showed how Alexandar was impressed by Brahmins, you can check how Greeks were impressed by Brahmins even much earlier than Alexandar. They earlier used word Brahmans for Brahmins and then Gymnosophists. You can google and find some information on your own.

Even after Manu Smriti was written it was never considered important text. You can read tons of hindu literature and check what they say about caste system, there is hardly anything discriminatory. What you will find is that caste is decided based on what you do or based on your capability and not based on your birth.

And believe me you can not call yourself CEO of a company even today, if you are not a CEO, not even manager. I have given this example earlier, Shudras of hinduism still never became as bad as slaves of other cultures and the more you go in hostory the more they disappear. The caste system was originally a broad classification of profession and inherent capability. Well, I can give you latest HR/Management theory which says how humans in general have 4 different personality types and it is from those so called westerners, they use more or less same types as hindu caste system. Let me know if you want to talk about it (you can google it using 4 different personality types).

Imagine it like this (but do not believe in what I am saying, keep your own ideas), when more and more history will be known (by any means and we will find new means of finding history eventually), the caste system of hinduism will be known as a good system for much longer time then people believe. It became bad during medieval times. India has not seen much poverty till Islam invaded it.

What you do not know is that it was feudal system of small kingdoms during medieval times that exploited caste system most. And all that happened much after Islam came to India and Islam helped in exploiting the caste system. The Islamic rulers tried to win over Hindus by sword or by whatever means they had. They killed them or made them subservient by marriage (rajput kings's daughters), or by indirect rule/ taxes or by giving high posts. None of the rulers cared for , it may be marriage, it may be patronage or it may be indirect rule.

Did you really read Kuran? What other religious books you have read?

I will answer other question in your post soon.

logging off.

re. #906

cheema sahib, you're being ironic, right??

re. #901 Eklavya

Hiya there Ek! Long time!

Hey, I remember reading your opinion on this very topic YEARS ago. Your views haven't changed since.

You write: "I see in the Quran a most powerful and perfect book. It is perfectly and powerfully good IF its followers have full faith in the core of Islam - One God, Allah; Last Prophet, Muhammad; final and protected Message, the Quran. It is perfectly and powerfully evil IF its followers have wobbly faith.

That's why I tell Muslim friends to have full faith, so they can, as a society, actually benefit from the book's carefully designed/revealed perfection. Or, get the heck out of the way. This stuff is too powerful to leave any sociey that lacks faith in peace."

I wonder if you could dilate a little. What are some manifestations/examples of Islam's perfection-through-perfect-faith? Or is this purely speculative philosophy?

Conversely, are you suggesting that those led or misled by Islam into evil acts are of little faith? I guess you'd have to elaborate on "faith" too here...

Thanks.

Re: # 904

just to clarify, I am merely elaborating on what Eklavya has been saying all along........the problem is NOT with the Muslims but the 'others' understanding of them.....therefore it is the other's problem and not that of the Muslims

(if that sounds confusing, I blame Kaalchakra!)

Re: # 889

pappu ji

This, your sex behavior, which you call 'your strong weakness'is what the Quran terms as a disease in the hearts of the men and so advises women not to speak softly to them( Does it make any difference). But Allah does not prescribe any treatment for the disease though it seems to be very simple; castrate all the males as a ritual 'khatnah' instead of removing some skin of the penis only.

Re: # 903; pinku
[[I am talking to anybody who tries to over simplify things by saying that Islam is good but people are making it bad.]]

How can one make something bad if it was meant to be perfect to start off with??

Like i said before, people are good or bad everywhere; when a certain type of 'bad' comes more often from one kind of people than others, one must look at what differentiates them (as a group)from 'others'(as a group).....and I'd say again; Muslims are NOT the problem here.

replying #852

no tahir,

I am talking to anybody who tries to over simplify things by saying that Islam is good but people are making it bad.

If you or Murad-Baig or anybody else says that then I am talking to all such people.


People will try to hijack whatever they can, but how come it is so easy for anybody to hijack Islam?

Where is the seed of ideas that help this hijacking? It is simply ignoring the root cause and beating around the bush, if you keep on repeating that people are hijacking Islam. Why do you see Islam related problem all over world? Why do they need separate schools, separate state, separate separate nations everywhere. Because they are hijacking Islam???? Or because Islam has hijacked their minds and keep doing this over and over again.

Imagine I give you new set of muslims but the same Islamic thoughts that you have today, the same Kuran, Do you feel that this new set of muslims will not hijack Islam??

What was those earlier cailphate doing? Why do you have so many nations who calls themselves to be Islamic? Why do you think these nations needs to have state religion? Why Arab lands were not secular after Islam took its roots?


You think it is because people are hijacking Islam and Islam is not hijacking people at all.

Well, if you or Murad Baig are really that confident about your idea then you can wait for a little while more, when muslims themselves will tell who hijacks whom.

Do you know why Turkey is trying to change Islamic texts?


Is it so difficult to see that the hard-core fanatics of different religions are still not the same. It is quite easy to say that a hard-core hindu or hard-core muslim are same, but if you do a psychological assesment (which you should try to do), you will get to know a surprizing difference. For intellectuals it doesn't matter because they hardly belong to religions, what matters is how religion affect people with average and low intellect. And there Islam hijacks their intelligence in much dangerous ways than other religions.

Let me know how you liked this pinky baby's or pinky girly's reply... does it make sense or her reply was totally idiotic as per your sober thoughts??

Re: 900

Pappuji, just a minor distraction between your's and ladduji's high flown intellectual dissertation, as just a sample of the high fine upright lives these Indians lead in the west; after perusing this you can go back on to your usual intellectualism.

Indian-American gets life term for murder of son's black wife
29 Jun 2008, 2013 hrs IST,PTI

WASHINGTON: An Indian-origin businessman in the US has been sentenced to life in prison without parole for hiring hit men to murder his son's black wife as he was enraged at the inter-racial marriage.

Prosecution had sought death penalty for Chiman Rai, 69, for paying two men USD 10,000 to kill Sparkle Michelle Rai, an African American, in April 2000 weeks after her marriage to his son Rajeev Rai alias Ricky, with whom she had a daughter.

The 22-year-old was found strangled and stabbed more than a dozen times at the couple's apartment.

Jurors deliberated for less than two hours before delivering the verdict in an Atlanta area courtroom in Georgia this week.

The case had gone cold but grabbed headlines as an "honour killing" after police arrested Chiman Rai and four others following a tip off two years ago.

The jury had found Rai guilty on seven charges, including felony murder and burglary, and was convinced that he believed that the marriage would embarrass his family.

Rai immigrated with his family from India in 1970 and taught Maths at Alcorn State University in Mississippi for a decade before opening a supermarket and a hotel in Kentucky Mississippi where Sparkle was an employee.

Prosecutors claimed that it was a hate crime. "This particular murder, outrageous, wantonly vile...," prosecutor Sheila Ross was quoted as saying by the The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, “...of this young mother not only justifies but demands the death penalty," she told the jury.

Defence lawyer Don Samuel said while there was evidence that Rai believed his son's marriage would cast a stigma on his family in Indian society, he wasn't a racist and had strong support in the African-American community.

tahir, unfortunately, muradbhai chose to not answer that question (it might be an oversight, and he yet might answer.)

I won't spend much time here but it would be wrong to not answer a serious question posed to me. So here goes:

"What do YOU see in the Qur'an if you've read it by any chance?"

I see in the Quran a most powerful and perfect book. It is perfectly and powerfully good IF its followers have full faith in the core of Islam - One God, Allah; Last Prophet, Muhammad; final and protected Message, the Quran. It is perfectly and powerfully evil IF its followers have wobbly faith.

That's why I tell Muslim friends to have full faith, so they can, as a society, actually benefit from the book's carefully designed/revealed perfection. Or, get the heck out of the way. This stuff is too powerful to leave any sociey that lacks faith in peace.

--------------

Sincere apologies if any of this sounds blasphemous or irreverent. It is meant to be neither panegyrical nor blasphemous, but simply a factual statement (of course, as I see it). And I am ALWAYS open to learning from those who know.

Thanks Ladduji! Quite a bit of reading and digesting to do!

Would it be a good idea to ahve a glossary of Sanskrit and Sanatan Dharma terms for newbie?

I think you can also develop a quiz to test ones understanding.

Our brother Muradbhai need to score more than 95% to be eligible to write an article on mythical manufactured at JNU Bramhinism and Sanatan Dharma.

Otherwise, any Tom, Dilwar and Hari will write because of his connections of old Doon boys network. We also need to have a way to reject guys like Pandher who might come here to write and post.

Rest you can read here

- http://vedantamission.tripod.com/Pub/1Read/TBodha-1.htm

Q : What is Shama ?

A : 'Mano nigrah' answers the teacher briefly. It means Control of the mind. Many a times this is wrongly translated as suppresion of mind, which is wrong. Control of mind is one thing and suppresion is another. While control implies that the mind willfully now works as per the direction of its master the intellect, while suppresion implies that the mind basically takes to channels other than directed & desired by the intellect, it has be be forcefully brought under reins. Such a mind will be waiting for a chance to again take to its fanciful flights and this certainly is not a quality worth talking about.

Our antahkaran - the entire capacities of inner equipments, can be divided into broadly divided into two category : the mind & intellect. Here the mind is like a receptionist, receiving all the stimuli, while the intellect is like the chief executive, which deliberates on the data or information received and then decides on the course of action to be taken. Many a times the mind which is not used to getting guidance from within starts reacting as per its own fancies. Such a condition is not a very ideal one for any spiritual unfoldment or even wordly progress. With a reacting mind all wisdom only becomes comparable to gold on a donkey, which is not of any use to him. Basically Shama implies that the mind now works as per the dictates of the intellect. Bgoth as though happily married. This is what personality integration is all about.

Q. What is dispassion ?

A. It is absence of desire for the enjoyment of pleasures of this perceptible world or even of some future state of experience hereafter.

Dispassion is a very important and also a very beautiful quality. Strangely enough it is only with dispassion that you can percieve the beauty & also the truth of something. A person who doesn’t have passion for some pleasures does not mean that the fellow doesn’t have a passion for anything. He is passionately in love with the truth of life. Anyone who doesn’t hanker after the pleasures got out of some extraneous conditions has some understanding because of which this outlook has been brought about. The perceptions of that individual include :

1. The awareness that all extraneous pleasures are momentary.
2. The input-output ratio of energy & the end result is extremely high and therefore the proposition is not worthwhile.
3. All self-centered activities result in making the mind more gross & inert.
4. With detachment there is possibility of love in relationships rather than dependence.
5. There is greater appreciation of beauty and truth of something because of detachment.
6. Detachment brings in freedom & fearlessness.
7. Detachment brings anand.
8. Dependence on extraneous pleasures amounts to affirming our sense of limitation.
9. Discrimination of Permanent & Impermanent automatically results in changed perceptions regarding that which is impermanent.
10. That which is permanent should be something which is already available and therefore something to be known and not to be got through by any action.

Whoever sees the above facts will be blessed with vairagyam. An important requisite for the student & aspirant for the knowledge of Truth.

I.

The first question of the student pertains to understanding the first quality, i.e. viveka. He asks :

What do you exactly mean by the discrimination between the eternal and the ephemeral ?

The teacher answers :

By the discrimination between the eternal and the ephemeral we imply, the conviction that 'Brahman (the eternal & omnipresent consciousness) alone is the one real entity, and everything else is transitory'.

The quality of in-depth discrimination (viveka) is the hallmark of human mind. It is his greatest asset. It is because of this ability alone that man has progressed to mind-boggling heights in various fields. Whether it is the field of science, business, defence, relationships or any thing whatsoever, the understanding of right or wrong pertaining to that field is what makes him a scholar of his field. By education also this ability to see through the truth & untruth of each field is strived to be manifested. Thus not only the power of discrimination is present in one & all, but is also unanimously understood as the greatest asset of human beings.

Discrimination is the ability of the intellect to see through a situation, so as to 'see' rice & chaff seperately without even physically doing so. A good investor can 'see' the profit or loss in a given situation, even when a layman can't comprehend a thing. This is his power of discrimination in the field of his investments. So also with the experts in all other fields. Thus in discrimination there is no need or question of physical separation of two entities or inter-mingled probabilities, one has to just see through the situation or object, and separate the two in our intellect itself.

When ever in course of ones life, a realisation dawns, that the genesis of all my problems is non-apprehension of the exact truth of life, that the real search starts. Not knowing that which really matters the mind subsequently apprehends that which is untruth as the truth. This further compounds & complicates the problem, and the result is eternal, never ending seeking, along with inevitable heart breaks and discontentment. This is called samsara. With this realisation starts the process of conscious endeavor to know that which is permanent and what is not. If a man really wants to know then he will know, because all he wants is understanding of that which is the truth of all that which is. He is not looking any where beyond, but right here in the present, outside as well as inside.

The process of identifying that which is eternal or permanent is basically a very easy job, because that which is the untruth keeps changing constantly and thus keeps declaring its ephemerality. This has just to be kept aside by affirming that 'this is not what I am looking for'. When thus the mind which has been crowded by so many mis-apprehensions is cleaned, then to identify and know that which is eternal is not a difficult job. The straight forward job of knowing the truth as truth does become extremely difficult for one who is yet to realise the untruth as the untruth. Our attention is alredy on untruth, and one should start from here alone. See the untruth deeply enough so as to appreciate this fact in its entirety that 'this is something ephemeral'. Don’t be in a hurry to know the truth, first let the cloud of various mis-apprehensions whither. Then & then alone the 'discrimination' of that which is eternal and that which is not dawns.

In the process of this appreciation, what is subsequently realised is that 'all that which is percieved is transitory', and that light, awareness or consciousness, because of which this realisations are possible alone apears steady. A person endowed with this understanding is said to possess the first pre-requisite of a student of vedanta. It should be noted here that this viveka is not the end but the beginning of the study of vedanta. A person who already has this much understnding is best poised to go deep into the secrets of mind & self.

The conviction that 'all that which is percieved is transitory' and 'that which illumines all this' appears relatively permanent, is by itself a great leap forward, but is not the entire truth. Thus inspite of this knowledge the person keeps suffering though relatively less. Such people have become 'introvert' in the real sense of the term. Their fascinations for extraneous things gets reduced drastically, they seem to have more time & energy at their disposal. There is quititude in their minds and thus the intellect becomes all the more sharp & subtle. They can now become sensitive to subtler & finer things of life, and overall stand apart from the rest. This viveka is by itself a great blessing, but there is still miles to go before he can sleep. The thrust of the knowledge of vedanta is to there after reveal that which is the very substratum of the knower, known and the process of knowing. That substratum is not really an object of our knowledge in the ordinary sense of the term, for the simple reason that to know the substratum of the knower, we have to transcend this knower. We are no more a knower. With the negation of the knowership that which remains is that which is revealed as the truth. While in a fragmented state we may have turned inwards because of some understanding about that which is transitory, but are far from truth. This fragmentation has to drop for the unfragmented to get revealed, and mind you our ability to discriminate doesn’t call for physical seperation of permanent and impermanent. Inspite of the apparent fragmentation, the person can 'see' that which is 'not fragmented'. Study of Vedanta makes this power of discrimination all the more sharp & clear.

As far as the requisite of the student is concerned, it refers only to his realisation that all that is dryshya, seen is impermanent, and that which is drg or the seer is permanent. Rest of the knowledge is the Guru prasad brought about by the study of vedanta.

This thus is the first quality of the student of Vedanta. The second obvious quality is vairagya, or dispassion towards that which is realised to be impermanent.

Ladduji,

Would you please tell what one has to do to develop those 4.

But , as I said earlier, mere reading the books would not help. In order to "understand" Advaita Vedanta the 4 pre-requisites are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

That is why momeens have to reject desire for Jannah in order to attain the Brahman (Allah).

They can certainly find a lot of material on Advaita Vedanta including -

http://www.advaita.org.uk/

Thanks Ladduji!

How can we help our brother Muradbhai and Uncle Tahirji? Muradbhai thinks God speaks only in Doon Convent English and Uncleji thinks he speaks in Bedouin Arabic. Are there good trnsaltions of Shankara's work for them?

Re: # 889

"Ladduji, am I hopeless? I fall in love with any one from new born to hundred year old. They all look like bhagwati."

You are indeed fortunate that you can see divinity in every woman.

Re: # 888

tahir ji,

You did not understand what pappu's intention was- he was pointing out to that Arabic Imperialism that was imposed by Mohammad on the rest of the world in the name of Islam.

This imperialism aimed at elevating tribal Arabic Bedouin culture over every other culture.

It did so by imposing Arabic Quran (as if God speaks Arabic only) and Arabic Bedouin cultural icons ( purdah,beard, camels, dates, tents and slaves) on the rst of the world.

The day you can consider that Allah can also speak in Hindi - you would be out of cultural imperialism of Mohammad!!

1. Viveka : The capacity to discriminate between the permanent and the impermanant.
2. Vairagya : Dispassion to the enjoyments of the fruits of one's actions, here or hereafter.
3. Six qualities like Sama etc.
4. Yearning for liberation.

These are little more practical and easier. I got scard by the earlier ones.

Ladduji & Muradbhai,

Muradbhai you might be much better qualified compared to me in satisfying these requirements. So dont get disheartened!

I have a strong weakness. I fall in love with every woman I encounter. Nothing Lustful like Clinton but still serious for my financial health. My friends, wife and employees try to protect me from financial harm by screening the new females I might encounter and watching moves of the female around me. I just like the smell of their palloos, music in their voice. The spark in the eyes is really very captivating. I become a lamb in front of them. Ladduji, am I hopeless? I fall in love with any one from new born to hundred year old. They all look like bhagwati.

Hey Tahir Uncleji, your Allah can approach me in female form. I will be servant of her for life. Is that idalotory?

Re: # 879 Pappy Girl
"Please give me a Koran in Hindi"

Read it in English first although a Hindi translation is not difficult to find. Ask your folks back home to send you one. I hope you left some of them behind, just in case things got rough in Untidy Satans?

Re: # 867 Lady Laddu

"I also studied muslims and Quran very carefully and found that the real problem is not a muslim but Islam."

Lie! Damned lie! Admit you read Rushdie's book and came to this ruinous conclusion?

I said it earlier: get off the train. Go jump NOW!

Re: # 863 Zee To The Max

"you're not ignorant, but a deceitful and willful misleader of people"

We must fight now; I said THIS (well almost) to Pappy Girl before you did!

:)

Re: # 860 Pappy Girl

"I hope you did not get hurt. I do not have malice."

Lies, damn lies!

"I feel fortunate to be born in this land and culture."

You are in Untidy Satans now, and display not culture at all. Its all been McDonalised!

tahir,

Listen carefully what I say again-

Reject Mohammad in order to reach Allah.

Mohammad raised himself to the status of Allah and in order to reach Allah one has to destroy that satan personified in Mohammad!!!

Pappu,

Murad just requires to fulfil the following in order to undrstand Vedanta-


1. Viveka : The capacity to discriminate between the permanent and the impermanant.
2. Vairagya : Dispassion to the enjoyments of the fruits of one's actions, here or hereafter.
3. Six qualities like Sama etc.
4. Yearning for liberation.

If he fulfils these then he can certainly be qualified to write about Sanathan Dharma even if he has not read sanskrit and other things you speak about.......

Re: # 856 Pappy Girl
"way below us in most of the indices of human development"

Human Development Index! That was originally called Hairy-beast Self-destruction Index!

Keep having yourself measured in this 'shanakht parade'.

Vow what teeth, what biceps, and what abdominal MUSKLES you have grandma!

Please don't eat us alive....

Re: # 842 Pappy Girl
"The real meaning of the word will get freshly revealed to you when you become wordless."

PLEASE! Be wordless for--let's say--the next ten years until you turn twenty.

Re: # 875

"I am a non practicing Muslim who does not believe in any religion"

Murad ,

You still have a possibility of reaching Allah - something which no muslim has been able to do so far.

Reject Mohammad now..........and Allah is right in front of you...

tahir uncle, u are converting a converted one. Why do u think i am not muslim? Would be please give Islam a Indic/Sanskrit name? Please give me a Koran in Hindi. I am a slow reader and hates to read. I like Namaz though because it's action oriented. I am little fast sporty one, multitasker and intense person.

I like to be a girl in the nest life looking at easy life of my wife and other female friends. They reach to my purse very easily with motherly caressing of my head. trust me on the day of Kayamat I waont be farther from you ... it might hurt you ... but search for me ahead of you in the queue for Jannat.

Re: # 841 Papp Girl

"of a swan type"

Very bad! You should not use the word SWINE!

"Would you please pen down a list of qualification a writer like Muradbhai need to possess before he publishes anything on Sanatan Dharma / Hinduism."


Let me put it this way-

Shamkara dwells greatly upon the four fold requirements of a adhikari who can undertake enquiry into the Brahman-

"Sadhana-Chatustaya-adhikarinam - For those fit people who are endowed with the Four-fold qualities, moksha-sadhana-bhutam - that which is the means for attaining total freedom (moksha), tattva-viveka-prakaram - the exact kind of discrimination required (for the realization of Truth), vakshyamah - I will expound."

In order to understand Sanathan Dharma Murad has to-

1. Stop lusting for worldly pleasures.
2. Forget the pleasures in Jannah.
3. develop Mumukshatva (desire for liberation).

Only then can be "understand" Vedanta which contains the wisdom of Hindus!!

Otherwise he would be like the Asuras who mistook the Body for the Atman!!

Re: # 840 Pappy Girl

"No malice intended!"

Murad will not believe this assurance!

Re: # 838 Murad
"I am a non practicing Muslim who does not believe in any religion"

You should have either lied (not a good idea for a Muslim) or re-designated yourself as 'something that tastes like Muslim, looks like Muslim, but is NOT Muslim'!

Not a practising Muslim who does not believe in any religion is: NOT a Muslim.

Now you're half a step away from getting whipped by practitioners of 'takfeer'.

May Allah be your judge; you've already condemned yourself here.

Re: # 834 Pappy Girl

"Bigot is a person who does not change his opinion even after furnishing lot of evidences and convincing arguments."

Right, I tried but YOU failed!

If you don't agree with Islam, get off the train and stop pulling the 'zanjeer' every few minutes out of sheer panic. Why are you so scared; no ticket to heaven in your possession?

Gabdhi was great and had masses with him because he walked the talk. Muradbhai are you walking the talk?

I bet given an opportunity even the Bishop Cotton school graduate, Pandher, will write a piece deriding bramhinism in flawless fluent English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moninder_Singh_Pandher

The biggest difference between the leadership of Pakistan, and the leaders of India is that there was none on Pakistan side who walked the talk, including Jinnah. India was fortunate to have few Gandhians, Patelians and Malviyajians.

Muradbhai,

How we behave when no one is watching creates the credibility. Tell us wheter your wife has Arabic/Persian name. Do your kids carry Arabic/Persian names? Do they celebrate Diwali, Dassara and Holi with same gusto as Muharram? Do they attend temples, reach out to Swamis and Gurus? Did they learn Sanskrit?

"Frankly I am impressed with your experiments with other religions. "

They were not experiments with other religions, just went along with nice folks. Our whole family has done Vipassana Buddhist meditation 10 day course at least 3 times each.

Muradbahi, I am telling this to find some commonality and so you do not feel ...

Ladduji,

Would you please pen down a list of qualification a writer like Muradbhai need to possess before he publishes anything on Sanatan Dharma / Hinduism.

List could be:

1. Knowledge of Sanskrit
2. Understanding of Bhagwad Geeta, KathoUpanishad, Patanjali Yoga Sutra ...

Since he is married to a Hindu lady it would be interesting to know how he treats his wife and kids. Are they allowed to explore their heriatge on mother side and the culture of the land. Lot of Islamists are plate pissers!

Reject Mohammad ........right now...and you will find the Allah's noor descending on you immediately.......

tahir,

Listen carefully what I say again-

Reject Mohammad in order to reach Allah.

Mohammad raised himself to the status of Allah and in order to reach Allah one has to destroy that satan personified in Mohammad!!!

Re: # 865

"I feel one needs to live the ism for extended period of time intensely before one publishes anything on that ism. "

Pappu,

Frankly I am impressed with your experiments with other religions.
I also studied muslims and Quran very carefully and found that the real problem is not a muslim but Islam.

The ONLY satanic entity that stands between a momeen and Alah is Mohammad.

Mohammad is NOT the solution to the problem - he is the problem

Mohammad is the satan personified who stands between Allah and his created.

Muslims have to reject Mohammad in order to reach Allah!!!

Muradbhai,

I will assume you are preparing your answers. But answers from heart dont need preparation. Truth is dynamic, balance happens when one is fast. So speak up! Nothing to lose but fear, ignorance and ego.

Ladduji

Would you please give a good shape to these questions and create a good list of qualifications one need to possess before any one writes on Sanatan Dharma or Hinduism. You are much better writer and have lot of knowledge on Sanatan Dharma / Hinduism.

I feel one needs to live the ism for extended period of time intensely before one publishes anything on that ism. Same is true for sciences, medicine, engineering and even Maths. we ned to have IITs for social sciences otherwise any tom Adbullah and Hari might start propagating his theories/opinions about the ism. I shoud not be allowed to publish my opinions on Islam, at bestshould be allowed to hold mirror in front of believers.

We would know a lot about you if you answer following:

1. Did you or your wife decide to change her name to a Islamic one? Does she carry your last name? We know you are not carrying her last name.

2. What are the names of your kids? Which schools do they attend to. Do they attend Hindi medium schools where Indian culture is taught? Indian culture means Hindustani Music, Dances such as Bharat Natyam etc. Are they learning Sanskrit? Taken some effort to learn Vedic Maths? Do they regualrly visit Indian temples and historical places, even pilgrimage places suchas Prayag, Nasik (Trayambekeshwar), Rameshwar etc.? Do they participate in local Ganesh Puja, Durga Puja and ShivJayanti? Are they passionate about stopping pollution of Ganga? Can they sing Kabirs dohes?

Answers to these questons will give us an idea about where you come from. We do not want yet another foreigner tell us who we are when his own community is way below us in most of the indices of human development.

No malice intended!

Hello Muradbhai,

"You are being very personal but my wife remains a devout Hindu and my children went to public schools in India."

Muradbhai,

Does she take your last name? Obviously you are not taking her last name. Are the names of your kids Arabic/Persian or Indic?

Did you study Sanskrit to learn about Sanatan Dharma?

Did you make your kids go to temples, ashrams of different swamis and gurus to learn the faith of your wife? BTW my kids went to church and Dhamma Sthal twice a month when till few years back. I was also Bahai follower in 97-98 because of a Greek female friend. Hope this opens you up!

Tahir Miyan, I also did Namaz five times for a year with good Muslim friend for a year, more to have discipline than anything else. It was more to take stock of my thoughts and my reactions during two Namaz. So, my apologies are not fake! Please do not respond! Bandwidth is precious and I am finely tuned to Baig Ji

#838 Posted by muradbaig

I try to never speak of Islamic architecture, art, scripts, culture or atrocities because these were not the creations of the religion but the good and bad activities of numerous people like the Arabs, Persians, Mongols, Afghans Turks, etc.

My God you're so ignorant. Why do you think they built mosques with the highest entrance arches possible? It was to make a person feel small and humble while entering the house of Allah. The Samarkand grand Mosque is an example.

But perhaps you're not ignorant, but a deceitful and willful misleader of people.

"Re: # 840

You are being very personal but my wife remains a devout Hindu and my children went to public schools in India."

Muradbhai,

Does she take your last name? Obviously you are not taking her last name. Are the names of your kids Arabic/Persian or Indic?

Muradbhai,

I am finely tuned to your signal filtering out the noise of tahir, eklavya and mystics. Hello r u there?

Muradbhai,

Thanks for your reply 840! I hope you did not get hurt. I do not have malice. Both of us dearly care for the land which nourished us in many different ways and atleast I feel fortunate to be born in this land and culture.

You have not given answers to many other questions. Would you please. You are a public figure. I can hide behind a nick but you cannot. Not fair but part of the game!

Pappu Laddu Pinku uuu...is that you Ranjit sindhu

Re: # 835 Pappy Girl

"The rootless converts have the lowest self esteem. They sell their mothers to the highest bidder"

Watch your rea end because you're talking through it now. Your derogatory remarks are being noted with disgust.

Grow up quickly for everyone's benefit..

YAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNN

You all Hindu Muslim Brahman Syed and in between sikhs are stuck up egotistical biggot .

Tahir Uncle,

"What is the secret? How do Indian parents allow their Guddus, Pappus, Laddus, Pinkus to grow up so confused and wasters of believers' time?"

You are really very pious one, but we do not want yet another foreigner tell us who we are when his own community is way below us in most of the indices of human development. After a good meal of sheesh-kabab prepared by a maid you come here to give Islamic burps. We do not like the smell. India was fine before Muslim came and will be better if they leave. Sorry to be little harsh!

Would you please do a fast on posting and asking foolish questions! Thanks!

The world is saying - It's Islam stupid!

Re: # 832 Ladds

"In my opinion , one can blasphemize about Mohammad but not about Allah! In my view one can reject Mohammad but NOT Allah!!"

Your VIEW, your opinion! Hay Raam!

Will you stop living on just cow-dung? What non-sense are you uttering; your opinions don't change what Muslims believe or don't.

Head (with a shaven head) to the 'mandir' PLEASE!!!

Re: # 840

You are being very personal but my wife remains a devout Hindu and my children went to public schools in India.

Re: # 828 Aik Love Ya

"Is Islam itself, inherently, a bigoted religion, like brahminism? What do you think..."

Allow me to answer: NO it is not! Naughty children project daddy a certain way; it is not daddy's fault! Daddy is very good; bad company has caused problems for the children!

What do YOU see in the Qur'an if you've read it by any chance?

Re: # 824 Pappy

"Where do you live? Jahannam? For Islamists India is the worst. do you know when are they leaving the subcontinent? Don't come to US, the best place for you is Saudi Arabia, the source of all the evil for last 1400 years."

THIS after your 'jaali' (fake) apology?

I did guess the state you're in correctly: Hysteria, USA!

Now go change the 'IN GOD WE TRUST' bit...

nkg and muradbhai

We might be talking at cross purposes.

WHATEVER good Brahmins did, or WHATEVER other good things Brahminism had, as a system of ideas, it was fundamentally discriminatory and bigoted.

Do we agree on that?

----------------------

Muradbhai, irrespective of whatever Muslims did or did not do, do you think, as a system of ideas, Islam as it was meant to be, in its original form, in the views and actions of its founder, as visualized originally, in is pristine shape, was it and is it a fundamentally discriminatory and bigoted religion?

Let me answer that partially. Any true Islamist will tell you that it no, Islam was never meant to be discriminatory and only Muslims made it so. I have no problem accepting that. One can see why an Islamist would think so. Do you agree too? How about Brahminism?

Again, nkg and murad bhai, let's forget people for now. Focus exclusively on the 'ideas', on the core 'message' itself. You don't have to. We can argue that we humans misunderstand these messages, and all and everything is right, or wrong.

Re: # 823 Pinky Baby

What is the secret? How do Indian parents allow their Guddus, Pappus, Laddus, Pinkus to grow up so confused and wasters of believers' time?

Are you talking to me Pinky Baby?

Ladduji, Do you want to add few more points to my list about credentials Murabdhai need to possess before he writes articles on Sanatan Dharma / Hinduism?

Re: # 818
"A supremacist momeen speaks for his Allah again!"

Why not, doesn't Allah speak to you sometimes when you beat up on those who love and obey him?

Re: # 817 Ladds
"Why do you even starve for 40 days?? Are you so scared of Allah? I would not starve for even an hour for Allah."

Try a minute instead and see if you feel nice!
Anyway, I was speaking to Papps but since you ask; it does not matter what you do and don't for Allah as Laddu the idolator.

So sleep well, and let me pray in peace to (you guessed it: to Allah!)

Shanti.

"As I had said before the responses to this article would make a very interesting book."

Please dont forget to send few checks my way. Good Luck!

"The same goes for ISLAM. I try to never speak of Islamic architcture, art, scripts, culture or atrocities because these were not the creations of the religion but the good and bad activities of numerous people like the Arabs, Persians, Mongols, Afghans Turks, etc."

Since you claim to be historian, do you know who were the architect of TajMahal (TejoMahal), so called Qutub Minar? Is it realistically possible for taliaban if it ever conquered midwest of USA to build Sears Towers. You will have to find how it was funded by Sears and Roebock company and the chief structural engineer of the architectural firm was a Bengali Muslim. You should also study how these monuments for deads made living peasants and workers poor. Vain Rajputs and Mughals did not see what was happening in europe at that time. May be Mughals still thought that they were foreigners in this land, and had no intention of being protector of culture of this land and well being of all citizens.

"The same can be said for Divali, Holi, Naoroz, Passover, etc. Many were honest celebrtations of spring and autumn harvests and the religious fairy tales are unnecessary."

On the first day of Diwali Narkasur was killed. When kids get up early at 4 AM and before taking bath (given by the parents) they crush with their feet symbolic Naraksur, once ego, jealosy and other mental traits which can make a family disfunctional. What is harm in such a ritual? It's not stepping on someone else rights and freedom. If you complain about pollution of all kinds due to fire crackers then you have a point. Have you done something about it?
There are similar events (may be mythical to you) with Holy, Dassahara and Muharram.

"But raking the old ashes in the present time to forment more sectarian strife is deplorable. "

But not raking the old ashes in the present time so that equal-eaual can be done between religions and dharmas to make people rootless and cultureless is a crime against humanity. It is Mao style destruction of culture. Keep it in mind that India is democracy not because of JN or JNU but because of Dharmic mooring of the Indian culture.

"I also hate the mythification of all the prophets, apostles, saints, sages, sacred dreams, etc., that have distorted the words of the founders in all religions."

What you call myths is Itihaas for us. It wets our hearts so that we can be rooted in culture. Culture is fluid. Dry intellectualization can create monsters such as effery dahmer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer and culture destroyers and brain eaters such as Romilla. In your own neck of the woods, a Bishop Cotton school graduate, Pandher, turns into a serial murderer because of rootless-ness and cultureless-ness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moninder_Singh_Pandher

The real meaning of the word will get freshly revealed to you when you become wordless.

Muradbhai,

"The practitioners of all religions did many violent and evil things in the holy name of their gods. "

All or some! Violent and evil things were done by Abrahmic religions except Judaism. You are right, Dharmas are not religions! Sanatan Dharma, Bouddha Dharma, Jaina Dharma and Sikh Dharma have not done violent and evil things in the holy name of their gods. Except in recent past Bhindranwale gave bad name to Sikh Dharma by his karnames.

Whom you might be calling ugly duckling among the ducklings of religions is actually a Dharma of a swan type.

Muradbhai,

"But please note that though I have a Muslim name I am a non practicing Muslim who does not believe in any religion."

We can not see what you practice in your mind or not. What you practice will show up in your action. I googled for your articles on this CMS, DostMitra told that you are married to a Hindu lady practicing or nonpracticing. We would know a lot about you if you answer following:

1. Did you or your wife decide to change her name to a Islamic one? Does she carry your last name? We know you are not carrying her last name.

2. What are the names of your kids? Which schools do they attend to. Do they attend Hindi medium schools where Indian culture is taught? Indian culture means Hindustani Music, Dances such as Bharat Natyam etc. Are they learning Sanskrit? Taken some effort to learn Vedic Maths? Do they regualrly visit Indian temples and historical places, even pilgrimage places suchas Prayag, Nasik (Trayambekeshwar), Rameshwar etc.? Do they participate in local Ganesh Puja, Durga Puja and ShivJayanti? Are they passionate about stopping pollution of Ganga? Can they sing Kabirs dohes?

Answers to these questons will give us an idea about where you come from. We do not want yet another foreigner tell us who we are when his own community is way below us in most of the indices of human development.

No malice intended!

Re: # 828
Ekal...
"Is Islam itself, inherently, a bigoted religion, like brahminism?"

Ans: Utter stupid...
Brahmins have contributed immense in medical science, methamatics, literature, astronomy for more than 1000 years. Bigotry does not produce such stuff. If Indian society is in shabby state today, we have to blame Budhdhist/Jain influence on Kshatriyas. It had allowed mediaval arab barbarism to spread in gangetic valley.
India had started regaining its civility after 1860-70s through series of corrective measures in Bengal (Indian edcation system owes a lot to Pundit Iswar Chandra Bandyopadhyay).

Re: # 779

My dear Eklavya, I would welcome discussions from Hindu, Muslim and other interactors. But please note that though I have a Muslim name I am a non practicing Muslim who does not believe in any religion. I love the core ideas of all religions but hate the the way the ideas of the founders were twisted by professional priests, Mullahs, Pandits, padres, etc.

I also hate the mythification of all the prophets, apostles, saints, sages, sacred dreams, etc., that have distorted the words of the founders in all religions. The practitioners of all religions did many violent and evil things in the holy name of their gods. But raking the old ashes in the present time to forment more sectarian strife is deplorable.

I also find no sanctity in the huge baggage of customs that all religions venerate. Eid and Ramzan were Arab customs long before the prophet, Christmas and Easter were Roman Pagan customs that the priests sanctified long after Jesus. The same can be said for Divali, Holi, Naoroz, Passover, etc. Many were honest celebrtations of spring and autumn harvests and the religious fairy tales are unnecessary.

You are correct that I am miserly in the use of the word HINDU because this was a shifting label over the centries. You will see how the Hindu tradition had seven distinct gear changes in my Chowk article dated September 2007. I much prefer to speak of the people and their sects at a given point of time.

The same goes for ISLAM. I try to never speak of Islamic architcture, art, scripts, culture or atrocities because these were not the creations of the religion but the good and bad activities of numerous people like the Arabs, Persians, Mongols, Afghans Turks, etc.

As I had said before the responses to this article would make a very interesting book.

#795 Eklavya

What is the porpose of this article ? Is it to prove that hinduism is not as old as it claims to be ?.... is it to date hinduism after Islam ?

European / Christian historians of last century had this mind – block… and never dated anything older than the their programmed abrahamic dates.

Two dates which sub-conciously rule these christians is 6000 years and / 2000 years. That’s their abrahamic conditionaing. Now these momammedens have one more date to work with that’s thr 7th century.

Murad is trying his best to see if he can show hinduisnm in its present form is younger then Islam .

What is the porpose of this article ? Is it to prove that hinduism is not as old as it claims to be ?.... is it to date hinduism after Islam ?

European / Christian historians of last century had this mind – block… and never dated anything older than the their programmed abrahamic dates.

Two dates which sub-conciously rule these christians is 6000 years and / 2000 years. That’s their abrahamic conditionaing. Now these momammedens have one more date to work with that’s thr 7th century.

Murad is trying his best to see if he can show hinduisnm in its present form is younger to Islam .

Ladduji,

"Not elevating Mohammad to the status of Allah does not turn a faithful into a Hindu!!"

If they are called as Hindu, what is the harm? Islam is the worst among the Abrahmic religions, Communism included, who take away the native culture, language and ancestory of its new converts.

The rootless converts have the lowest self esteem. They sell their mothers to the highest bidder. Fight in Afghanistan and cashmere for little bit of cash. In US they documented what happened to American Inidan kids who were taken away from their reservations and put in the best boarding schools in far away est coast. Those kids becme drug addict antisocial. Islam is antisocial, anticulture and antihuman. It's ment for raising legion for plunder, loot and rape.

Eklavya,

"
Is Islam itself, inherently, a bigoted religion, like brahminism?"

Did Brahminism ever exist? Attack on Brhmin is akin to March 25 1971 attack on Dhacca University professor quarters and student hostels. Thousands of unarmed professors and students perished. It's the tactics of oppressor to aim at your brain. What do you think bigoted Eklavya? Bigot is a person who does not change his opinion even after furnishing lot of evidences and convincing arguments.

Re: # 831; pappu

Kaal bhai would know exactly what I am saying.

Regards

Re: # 826

"That would be a Hindu, laddu bhai. One who totally leaves both the Quran and Muhammad behind..."

In my opinion it is possible to be a "muslim" just by surrendering one's ego to "Allah" ......... and not worrying about the Quranic tafsirs.....

Not elevating Mohammad to the status of Allah does not turn a faithful into a Hindu!!

Not at all.

In my opinion , one can blasphemize about Mohammad but not about Allah- the opposite view is espoused by the hadeeth created by the mullahs!!

In my view one can reject Mohammad but NOT Allah!!

Cheema,

"As far as hindu extremism is concerned, the problem may be the exact opposite of the above."

I.E.?

Do you mean if Hindu poor are converted to Abrahmic Islam/Communism/Christanity milk and honey will flow?

I do not think Muradbhai is that innocent or progressive.

If he is married to an Indian or Hindu ask this gentleman if he is willing to go thru the ceremony mentioned below for his wife's sake otherwise his his wife is just a handsomely paid prostitute. Is he willing to name his kids after Indian patriots, sages and saints, eg., Bhagat Singh, RajGuru, Shivaji, Valmiki, Patanjali, Ahilya, Rani LaxmiBai, Savitri etc.

April 11, 2007

A Hindu girl and a Muslim youth (or vice versa) elope and tension grips the entire town. If the girl is Hindu, the Bajrang Dal and other fringe organisations will create a storm and demand that the girl is brought back and the youth arrested for kidnapping her.

It is later found that the girl and boy were adult and had married as per law. The affidavit was submitted in the court. And the real bombshell comes when they find that: it was not the girl who converted but the boy who not only changed his name but also underwent 'Shuddhikaran' to become a Hindu.

Re: # 829

in fact, the former statement of mine below is true for the adherents of any one of the so-called abrahamic traditions.

Regards

Re: # 828; Eklavya

I have explained many a times before (and I think you agree), the problem is NOT the poor Muslims. So please don't harrass a good Muslim such as Murad sahib.

As far as hindu extremism is concerned, the problem may be the exact opposite of the above.

muradbhai, the issue is not Muslims, but Islam. Every Muslim will tell you that Islam has been hijacked by bad people (that is, everyone but himself or herself). You offer fairly standard Islamist argument (which may be right).

Is Islam itself, inherently, a bigoted religion, like brahminism? What do you think, muradbhai?

Re: # 777

If you had read my earlier chowk articles on the `hijacking of Islam' and `the vicious circle of violence' you will not be able to say that I have been any kinder to the bigoted Muslims who have done so much harm to mankind. I condemn all who make the masses do evil things in the name of religion.

(as the formless Brahman) without following Quran....

That would be a Hindu, laddu bhai. One who totally leaves both the Quran and Muhammad behind...would have a great deal of trouble establishing himself or herself as a Muslim. One may continue to call onself a Muslim for political and emotional purposes alone, then. But there would be no difference between such a 'Muslim' and a Hindu....Such a person would basically become a yogi or a bhakta, IMO.

"Yes, but when a Muslim submerges himself or herself in Allah, ..."

The jump from Allah to Quran is not obvious- One can "merge" in Allah (as the formless Brahman) without following Quran......

Uncle Tahir Nahin Manenge!

"Which state; Southern Hysteria? :)"

No, Sudden Hysteria! How about you? Where do you live? Jahannam? One Muslim friend had told me that America is worst than Jahannam. I agreed with him and asked when was he leaving. For Islamists India is the worst. do you know when are they leaving the subcontinent? Don't come to US, the best place for you is Saudi Arabia, the source of all the evil for last 1400 years.

Empty talks with dull idiotic minds, with no sincerity can result in nothing good, no matter how much time you invest.

When people do not even want to think properly over what they themselves are saying, do not even want to define properly what they themselves are saying (forget about convincing others) then arguments/rationality do not matter.


Thinking about Society without caring what society should be? When you can't even think of an objectiove what the hell will you do to achive it?

I haven't gone through all the posts since I left this issue, but some of you have talked about Islam being a social religion? As if you know, to at least a good extent, what Society should be? As if you have given enough thoughts to this?

Do you know when a thing/act is social or antisocial and what contexts make a thing social or antisocial? How will you determine if a religion that teaches about 4 wives, slave girls and may be some totally idiotic tribal laws to tribal people (those who even need to have a rule from God to know how to wash your hands) will be social or anti-social in which kind of society and in what contexts?

Islam is social religion for what kind of people? Who needs that kind of society and for what purpose?

First you need to decide "what are different possible objectives of society", "what is the best objective of society", once you feel you are sincere and honest enough to determine and agree to that, then try to pretend that you can think in terms of social and anti-social laws to some extent.

If you really want an answer to some comments that you post in response to this post, then send me a message, so that i do not end up skipping your post/comment (as I may not be visiting this topic too often).

some kind of conspiracy


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tw1B29xLSNk&feature=related

Total waste of time Pappuu Laddu Pappu Laddu

It wuld be beter to listen to Zakir and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

"best purushartha is achieved!!"

Yes, but when a Muslim submerges himself or herself in Allah, he or she gains complete faith in the Quran and it as a Word of God for all people and all times. Don't you see that basic difference between yourself and Muradbhai (assuming he has the faith)?

Re: # 815

"It feels better being a 365-day Muslim than a six-way gal for only 168 days!"

A supremacist momeen speaks for his Allah again!!

Re: # 815

"..cannot starve like the Buddha except in the month of Ramadan..."

Why do you even starve for 40 days?? Are you so scared of Allah??

I would not starve for even an hour for Allah.

"One can meditate, one can do scientific work - all in effort to remove the veil of any ego,.."

Ego is the "veil of meem" ( "Avarana of Maya")- once the Mamatva( mine-ness) goes away or the ego is surrendered through Bhakti or Submission to the Ishwara (the definite-ego) the best purushartha is achieved!!

Re: # 809 Pappu goochi-moochi

"I live in US."

Which state; Southern Hysteria? :)

"try this for next 21 days to be a Jew, then for next 21 days a Christian, next 21 days to be Bahai, then Zarathrostian, Hindu, Boudha, Jain, and Shinto/Confusian. Whole project will take 21x8 = 168 days less than six months. This exercise will strengthen your faith."

I cannot be a usurous shylock, cannot ever offer my other cheek, will not follow fake prophets sponsored by the colonists, cannot have my body eaten by birds, do not like mutiple gods and goddesses, cannot starve like the Buddha except in the month of Ramadan, and neither do Jainish things nor worship Chairman Mao.

It feels better being a 365-day Muslim than a six-way gal for only 168 days!

Remember, once you spoke of the role of 'ego.' That was a very profound statement. One can meditate, one can do scientific work - all in effort to remove the veil of any ego, or one can do all that in service of a definite ego. And that is a basic difference. That's why no mutual group-level confidence or trust can or should exist, except between two individuals.

Yes, I agree.

Re: # 810

"But there are many others who might look upon the Vedas in more cultural ways, as unifiers or anchors, or in some cases, not even that, necessarily.

These people would obviously try to date the vedas and they should."

Dating on the basis of Scientific-Materialism that does not recognize "idealism" or existence of anything apart from material world including God, spirits, houries, souls, revealation, intuition, magical powers etc has been going on and is part of modern day scientific archeology.

But when a momeen believer wants to "date" other beliefs so that he can boast of 'falsehood' of other's idealism and hence 'prove' his idealism is something that has to be opposed by Hindus because the aim of this is dawah and not seeking explanation on the basis of materialism of sciences.

Momeen truths are by default 'false' on the same standards of scientific materialism because it's entities are not open to experimental falsification.

I doubt a momeen Shia like Murad aims to falsify his own belief system in attempting to date Vedas materialistically through sciences.

methinks, your objection may actually be with murad bhai trying to date the vedas, rather than the effort to date them itself. That is ok, since no mutual credibility exists or can exist.

Good, laddu bhai. One can respect that. That is one stream of Indian thought, and people following that stream would obviously not care to date the Vedas in any scientific or logical manner (as they might with any other books).

But there are many others who might look upon the Vedas in more cultural ways, as unifiers or anchors, or in some cases, not even that, necessarily.

These people would obviously try to date the vedas and they should. None of that should make any difference to people who hold the vedas to be anadi, both being to able to coexist within the same larger system of ideas.

Do you think that is the essence of the Indian way, laddu?

Tahir dear bro,

"Now I'll have to work on having your previous request to God cancelled!"

Thanks! I live in US. One request though - try this for next 21 days to be a Jew, then for next 21 days a Christian, next 21 days to be Bahai, then Zarathrostian, Hindu, Boudha, Jain, and Shinto/Confusian. Whole project will take 21x8 = 168 days less than six months. This exercise will strengthen your faith whatever it might be.

Good Luck!

Re: # 806 Laddu
"you did not understand the significance of my claims to know Islam better than yourself!"

Claiming and aiming are different things. Let me see your real aims through the interacts.

Re: # 801 Laddu
"In order to be a true muslim one has to be a true idolator first like Mohammad"

If you're trying to say 'from doubt emerges conviction and faith' then there's some truth in it but not all start that way. One appreciates God more when left by the devil at the point-of-no-return!

Be on your way now to the 'mandir'...

Tahir miyah,

you did not understand the significance of my claims to know Islam better than yourself!!

Re: # 802

"Sikhism and Buddhism, for instance, place no great signficance on the vedas, and lose little by doing so."

Yes, I consider Hinduism as a conglomeration of different faiths strung together by certain common theological grounds and historical past. It is like what we call as Semitic Religions.

Vedas are considered "Anadi" and revealed to various Rishis who are the Seers of those revelations.

They are "Anadi" because they 'pre-existed' and Rishis only saw them and recognized a pre-existing spiritual knowledge.

The existence of Rishis CAN be dated - but not that of the Vedas.

Vedic-knowledge is NOT ideas in human heads which exist only if human beings live.

This 'Vedic-idealism' speaks about Vedic-knowldge having a "separate existence" from the human beings and would survive even if human beings are dead!!

Re: # 797 Papps
"Extremely sorry, if I hurt your feelings. Please do your Namaz before sleep and forgive me."

I do forgive and forget when someone acts like a man and accepts he genuinely did great wrong. Besides who am I to sound forgiving when the Most Forgiving is way ahead of me in this department?

It not always fruitful discussing religion on Chowk any away. Name the country of your residence, and I'll see if we can meet up some day soon to see where the raging rivers meet.

Sleep well.

PS: Now I'll have to work on having your previous request to God cancelled!

Re: # 794 Aik Love Ya

It is sad to see Laddu return with sharpened Dracula-teeth. In real life, Indians are a whole lot better than THIS variety that ChowQ has raised in captivity in little cages.

These confrontationists! They don't believe in a dialogue but rather a DIE-along, accusing Muslims all the way into their mosques.

The less said the better...

Regards.

Absolutely they are! That is the role Vedas serve, but the Indian thought allows you to reject them if you wish to, without losing track of basic intellectual/moral paramaters. Sikhism and Buddhism, for instance, place no great signficance on the vedas, and lose little by doing so.

IMHO, the vedas are important if you consider them important, and not important if you don't consider them so important. But the idea that EVERYTHING should be open to investigation, as much as humanly and logically possible, is important to us, isn't it.

Laddu, I would very much like to hear your views on this. Thanks in advance.

"In order to be a true muslim one has to be a true idolator first like Mohammad"

Think !!

Tahir miyah,

"Maano ya na maano - sirf main hi Islam ko uske sahi maqwaam par la sakta hoon!!!"

Think! Why would an idolator make that claim? Why does he think that he knows Islam better than those born in it?

Re: # 790

"But they can be and will be and should be dated, don't you think, laddu bhai. "

These are issues of faith and belief - not subject to speculation or theorizing - like the Islamic 'revelations' of Quran.

The core of "belief" system in Hinduism.

Tahir Mian,

Extremely sorry, if I hurt your feelings. I do not want you to lose your sleep. Please do your Namaz before sleep and forgive me. Genuinely I wanted to have a dialog with you, not so much to reform you. I do not have such granduer ideas. I wanted to see few points of commanality between your faith and my understanding of my own faith. My understanding is very little.

I am of the opinion that people are inherently good because they are the reflection of the creator. They do not need to have faith in any thing. Wen we go beyond words and word based thought then we are true human on the way to become with our creator/allah/gullah/bhagwan/tagwan.

Re: # 792 Loser The Pooh

What a loser! What friends, what taste, what language, what education, what a Pooh?

Over and out.

PS: I MEAN out.

anil ji
ajeya bhai
bhrata beej
dm ji
vengat anna
aanandk
dash
majumdar dada
nkg
sanatani
ananth
kamath
dr mohar
mayur
jang
humsab ji
maharana
guru ji
harish bhai
pinku
srk


Please do share your views regarding the 'discussion' you have had with murad bhai. I would be grateful to know if any of you were able to communicate with murad bhai, except on casteist issues. Thanks in advance, again.

tahir bhai, I do try my best, at considerable cost to my reputation among Hindu liberals, who blindly accuse me of 'creating' differences when I simply point out existing, real differences to them.

I thought this discussion would present Hindus with another opportunity to see basic issues but we will see whether that has worked in the smallest measure or not :(

Re: # 789

"I'm afraid there is no cure for it. You ARE, afterall, a variation of Laddu, NKG and JayP."

Tahir miyah,

You did not understand the significance of what I said yesterday-

" "laddu sahab ap ka islam ki taraf rujhan or jhukao dekh kr bohot khushi hoti hay

sari zindagi laga rahe hain ap is ko samajhne mein :)"

Miyan,

Asli momeen to main hi hoon. Baki sab to galat tafsir aur kitaab par kar behak gaye hain.

Maano ya na maano - sirf main hi Islam ko uske sahi maqwaam par la sakta hoon!!!"

Read again what I claim -

"Asli momeen to main hi hoon. Baki sab to galat tafsir aur kitaab par kar behak gaye hain."

Think!! Think!! How is it possible!!

Tahir Mian,


"Now you've been caught with your 'dhoti' down! What aileth you Puppu!"

What can I do, Eklavya brought me to a Muslim Randkikhana/Kotha and paid to the Islamist randi for a quicky. Hope she was clean.. you know it was unprotected. I don't enjoy such things but the randi beged.

Re: # 788 Aik Love Ya

Is there any need to talk sense to Winnie the Pooh-Pooh who appears to be a genuine 'latoN ka bhoot'?

Regards,

PS: thanks for trying though!

"Vedas which Hindus consider as "Anadi" and not capable of being dated"

But they can be and will be and should be dated, don't you think, laddu bhai. IMHO, that is not a real point of difference between murad bhai and us. It is a question of basic values and basic identities that changes everything else a human being sees around him or her.

Re: # 786 Poop-oo

You wasted my time discussing the why-what-where of God. And now...

"Muslims have their brains in the groin. It's not India but whole world is feeling that way."

Now you've been caught with your 'dhoti' down! What aileth you Puppu!

"Watch Pakistan will be denuked in an year and balkanized in few years. Oil will come down to $5 per barrel and it is end of Islam. This fascist extremist ideaology too brittle spiritually to survive. Read my little exchange with one tahir on other board."

What a devious little fellow you really are! You are condemned not to learn from anybody--not even a Hindu Sadhu!

"For the survival of the humanity Islam need to be buried deep in the desert sand. If people bury their head in the sand and not confront Islam head-on then few years down this idealogy with nuclear arms will destroy this planet. They have a weird concept of life after death."

Your illness has been noted; I'm afraid there is no cure for it. You ARE, afterall, a variation of Laddu, NKG and JayP.

Anyway, horrible knowing you on a Sunday.

"violence... Islam need to be buried deep in the desert sand."

Oh God, pappu, that is what we need to aovid, Indic people and followers of Islam moving in that direction, if possible.

For that, it is EXTREMELY important we understand what drives people like Murad bhai. Instead of getting upset, we need to develop correct understanding, so mutually beneficial structural arrangements can be made for everyone - whatever they be, and I know not what they are. They need not be hurtful to anyone, but they need to acknowledge reality that Murad bhai and we simply cannot converse (if that is true).

"...It is called 'penis-jihad.' ."

Now that he is incapable of doing so in his old age....he has turned to the 'Jihad of words'........churn out contrived historiography of Vedas which Hindus consider as "Anadi" and not capable of being dated.....

Why enabler of Islam why not Indicness?

If it does not happen softly, God forbid it will happen verry violently. Muslims have their brains in the groin. It's not India but whole world is feeling that way. Even the envoronment has started telling us that Indic vegetarianism, sarvo dharma samabhava, vasudevo kutumbaKum is the way to go further. "Muslim my way or Highway" is history.

Watch Pakistan will be denuked in an year and balkanized in few years. Oil will come down to $5 per barrel and it is end of Islam. This fascist extremist ideaology too brittle spiritually to survive. Read my little exchange with one tahir on other board.

For the survival of the humanity Islam need to be buried deep in the desert sand. If people bury their head in the sand and not confront Islam head-on then few years down this idealogy with nuclear arms will destroy this planet. They have a weird concept of life after death.

re: pappul # 783

Oh, that is part of a very simple idea that a respected chowki - aasif bhai - and I have discussed a few times. Not sure if it can be mentioned on fp without being flagged for indencency, but I will try. It is called 'penis-jihad.' Perhaps we can discuss the details on unplugged sometime.

For instance, nobody should be surprised if Murad bhai himself or people of his family are 'married' to Hindus. That makes no difference to their understanding, except those Hindu members become the defenders and propagators of Murad bhai's own Islamic views. That is a basic property of Islamic thinking.

------------

But really, whosoever he is married to or not, we shouldn't make this about him, but about whether ANY dialogue is possible between Indic peoples and followers of Islam. My suspicion has been - no, it is impossible. If more Indic people and Muslims feel the same, then some progress can be made from that point, for everyone's benefit.

Re: # 779

I know a plenty of Indian Shias from Lucknow - some of them must be common friends with Murad.

I know him from his car smuggling days. Those days he was trying to be a playboy - now in his old age he has gone senile.

He should avoid getting into un-necessary controversies by trying to pose as some sort of a scholar of hinduism which he is not.

He has certainly all the intentions to churn out his own historiography for which he might end up getting in a mess - it is indeed a political hatchet job from all I can see!!

Eklavya,

"the spouse should become irrlevant except as an enabler of Islam and Islam alone, from that point onwards. "

What do you mean?

pappu bhai, thanks for responding. I hope other Indic people will kindly share their views too, quite irrespective of their perceptions of my own opinions.

-----------

Pappu bhai, yes, at some point all of us - Indic people among themselves and Muslims among themselves - might want to pool their thoughts together and see what the best way forward may be, and I hope it is mutually beneficial to everyone. In the meanwhile, it is so very very useful to see if other Indic people find these discussions with our common Muslim friend as inane, or not (except in his attempts to play the casteist cards). In my limited perception, without correct understanding, nothing gainful can done further. Thank you for your contribution and your patience.

----------

IMHO, it should not make ANY difference if a Muslim is married to a Hindu or a Satanist. Except in rare cases, the spouse should become irrlevant except as an enabler of Islam and Islam alone, from that point onwards.

EkLavya,

"Then when our Muslim friend is requested for clarification, he falls back to well-known casteist problems among Indians - and argues that he is attacking (discriminatory) Brahmins alone (and why should others mind since they are not Brahmins anyway). This is casteist political game Islamist style."

Replace Muslim by Christian/Communist/Dhimmist and the para is still true. Instead of innane discussion, would you please tell us what can be done so that Muslim/Christian/Communist/Dhimmist can't afford to indulge in such behaviour. A good start would be:

to ignore all talk/articles on caste. Total Bahishkar!

Second ask him to write first 10 2K word essays on Advait, KathoUpanishad, Bhagwad Geeta, Patanjali YogaSutra, Saints of India, Boudha, Jain and Gandhi.

Ask him first show his Sanskrit credentials and then we would listen to him.

If he is married to an Indian or Hindu ask this gentleman if he is willing to go thru the ceremony mentioned below for his wife's sake otherwise his his wife is just a handsomely paid prostitute. Is he willing to name his kids after Indian patriots, sages and saints, eg., Bhagat Singh, RajGuru, Shivaji, Valmiki, Patanjali, Ahilya, Rani LaxmiBai, Savitri etc.

April 11, 2007

A Hindu girl and a Muslim youth (or vice versa) elope and tension grips the entire town. If the girl is Hindu, the Bajrang Dal and other fringe organisations will create a storm and demand that the girl is brought back and the youth arrested for kidnapping her.

It is later found that the girl and boy were adult and had married as per law. The affidavit was submitted in the court. And the real bombshell comes when they find that: it was not the girl who converted but the boy who not only changed his name but also underwent 'Shuddhikaran' to become a Hindu.

Let me add, our common Muslim friend here has, to the best of my knowledge, offered NO logical/moral basis for HOW he DEFINES things as either Hindu or Muslim or Turkish or whatever suits his fancy, nor is his definition open to any 'disucssion' by the target groups of such labeling.

If and when he is able to give us a reasonable basis for such labeling then the question below will become irrelevant.

This board is reaching its end.

I have a humble appeal to all Hindus who have taken part in this 'discussion.' Your favor will greatly help us advance our understanding of basic processes at work here.

Do you see our Muslim friend Murad bhai's dedicated effort as anything other than a political hatchet job, in which -

1. Whatever he 'claims' to LIKE about India is simply and summarily DEFINED as non-Hindu.

2. Whatever he 'claims' to NOT like about India is simply and summarily DEFINED as Hindu.

3. Whatever Islamic he 'claims' to NOT like about Islam is simply and summarily DEFINED as turkish, afghan or whatever.

4. Whatever Islamic he 'claims' to LIKE, is simply and summarily defined as Islamic.


Then when our Muslim friend is requested for clarification, he falls back to well-known casteist problems among Indians - and argues that he is attacking (discriminatory) Brahmins alone (and why should others mind since they are not Brahmins anyway). This is casteist political game Islamist style.

-------------

I would be grateful to hear from each Indic person who has attempted to take part in this 'discussion' with our common Muslim friend.

laddu
pappu
anil ji
ajeya bhai
bhrata beej
dm ji
vengat anna
aanandk
dash
majumdar dada
nkg
sanatani
ananth
kamath
dr mohar
mayur
jang
humsab ji
maharana
guru ji
harish bhai
pinku
srk

Did any of you feel you were able to communicate AT ALL with our common Muslim friend (other than on casteist issues, which both Vengat Anna and I are aware of and recongize. Both (All) of us can beat up on Brahmins if that is the only purpose.)?

I would VERY VERY much like to hear your view at the end of this long supposed 'discussion' and would be grateful for your personal feedback here. Many thanks in advance.

Pappu,

Iska Allah isko dekh raha hai uparwale makan se aur is ko bula raha hai!!!

Muradbhai,

"Not even one reliable historic source??"

Where was one?

"And I do not attack the vedas or seek to attack anyone except those who seek to use the name of religion to attack those of other beliefs."

Can you please elaborate. We have not seen you attacking Islamic hoardes who plundered, looted and raped in the name of Islam? Or, is it OK for Muslims to physically exterminate cultures, people, rape women and create bastards in the name of religion since they are not attacking others belief in an intellectual debate, that is what Hindus, Buddhist and Jains did. Are you against verbal attack but not physical one?

Laddubhai, this guy is turning into a scuMbag.

Laddu.

What! Not even one reliable historic source??

I only want to know the truth as best as it can be ascertained from historical analysis of internal and external evidence. And I do not attack the vedas or seek to attack anyone except those who seek to use the name of religion to attack those of other beliefs.

Re: # 771

"Please suggest any reputed historians who can help me change my opinion. Till then my opinion stands:

"It is important to remember that the Rigveda was the original Veda and that the others Vedas were rearrangements of the RV hymns with brahminical and ritual additions at later times. Then the brahmins added the brahmanas, aryankas to each veda in still later times. The Upanishads only appeared about the time of Mahavira and Buddha.""

It is like saying that you believe in Allah's Jahannum and unless and until some one prove you wrong you would stick to it.

The burden of proving that your theory is credible is on you my dear 12-ver. You are pushing this theory and you have not prove it with your evidences if you want others to even discuss it- not to think about accepting it as credible.


Let me tell you that dating a specific part of oral tradition (which is what Vedic knowledge has been) is difficult. Doing so on the basis of carbon dating of manuscripts is also full of assumptions based upon what was found and what was not found.

Finally, I am not a Brahmin. But I have learnt enough from the violent attack on Hindus by criminals to know that Brahmin (or any person with knowledge of hindu Shastras) as the carrier of oral tradition of vedas was the first target of attack by the momeen hordes.

Every Hindu has to protect the carrier and practitioners of the vedic tradition. Every Kshatriya must protect the intellectual repository of the hindu tradition. We must preserve the intellectual Shastric tradition if we have to ensure that hinduism survives.

So, your attack on Vedas would be rebuffed by all Hindus and would be defended until your nefarious agendas are thrown out from this holy land of Bharat.

Muradbhai,

"but reputed HISTORIANS of ancient Indian texts would not support this view. "

Reputed or deputed? Best history is told by the smell, demeanor and actions of the followers of the ism/religion/culture. If I hear the quack right now then there is almost certainty that the being who quacked right now used to quack yesterday. One does not need to depute a miserable soul to dig out stories at a cost to state. This is heideous corruption. Corruption of Laloos is just a checken feed, if you see the effect of this intellectual corruption.

MatloobZaman, injuns are crafty people. Have you not learnt that from your Muslim parents?

If not, Muslims currently resident in India will explain that to you. That's why Injuns should love Muslims currently resident in India (Muradbhai being just a very typical example). :)

Re: # 771
Therefore in essence these would be the Non-credible versions.
Like New Testament I, II or III.
Thats pretty crafty of Injuns.

Re: # 768

Dear Laddu

Your emotional reaction would be shared by most Hindus who have read or heard the words of reputed philosophers and gurus but reputed HISTORIANS of ancient Indian texts would not support this view. Please suggest any reputed historians who can help me change my opinion. Till then my opinion stands:

"It is important to remember that the Rigveda was the original Veda and that the others Vedas were rearrangements of the RV hymns with brahminical and ritual additions at later times. Then the brahmins added the brahmanas, aryankas to each veda in still later times. The Upanishads only appeared about the time of Mahavira and Buddha."

As with all human ideas the content of the RV evolved over time otherwise vedic worship would still be mainly addressed to Indra and philosophy would mainly be the sacrifice of many bulls at great yagnas to obtain boons.

I have great respect for the many streams of indigenous, jain and buddhist thought that have enriched the Hindu tradition but do not approve of the Brahminical habit of using the label of Veda or Vedic to sanctify all things that could enhance their own prestige. I have nothing aginst Brahmins who it must also be said also did so much for the shaping of thought in India but I do object to all professional priests who use the power of religion to further temporal power.

Are you Brahmin that you protest so much?

"dark age of Afghan and Turk dominance"

Murad ji, why would you not make that the dark age of Islam's dominance of India?

Just a question about your logic about how you label things, not meant to offend you. Thanks in advance.

"...I will submit another article to Chowk about this Hindu `dark age' between the 7th and 13th Century ..."

You can spin out any historiography that suits your agenda..............but atleast come up with real evidences (instead of contrived ones or references from other unauthenticated marxist/evangelistic sources) so that we have some thing to debate on this chowk!!

"It is important to remember that the Rigveda was the original Veda and that the others Vedas were rearrangements of the RV hymns with brahminical and ritual additions at later times. Then the brahmins added the brahmanas, aryankas to each veda in still later times. The Upanishads only appeared about the time of Mahavira and Buddha."

This is complete BS...........it goes contrary to the tradition as is practiced by hindus..........and is certainly a part of dawah /evangelistic propaganda to date Vedas in a manner that suits their agenda.

I challenge you to prove what you are saying- and remember no hindu is going to take this nonsense propaganda .

Re: # 766

A very interesting abstract from the Mahabharat but what is its relevance to the subject being discussed??

in your interact 736 you had asked whether or not Rudra, Vishnu and Sri were Vedic deities. It is important to remember that the Rigveda was the original Veda and that the others Vedas were rearrangements of the RV hymns with brahminical and ritual additions at later times. Then the brahmins added the brahmanas, aryankas to each veda in still later times. The Upanishads only appeared about the time of Mahavira and Buddha.

Rudra was very much there as a deity of the RV but not Sri. The only female deity among the 33 was Usha. The Vishnu of the RV was also very different from the Vishnu of the Puranas and only merited six rather vague verses. The great Vishnu of the Puranas evolved much later and took many attributes of the Purvi devta Varuna including his epithet Narayana.

It is true that Brahmins were only supposed to live on alms but this too changed over time. But at all times Brahmins used the power of their knowledge and semi sacred status to wield enormous temporal power.

I am working at getting all the historic and literary sources necessary to satisfy you but it is taking time. I lost some files in a computer crash. As this article is coming to the end of its span I will submit another article to Chowk about this Hindu `dark age' between the 7th and 13th Century before another dark age of Afghan and Turk dominance supressed indigenous traditions.

Since Muradbhai is too busy in digging non existent proofs, to prove what ever he wants to prove, please enjoy this story:

The five Pandavs are worried. Not because they have had to leave the glitz and glamour of their capital and go to the forest for thirteen years of exile, one of which they are required to spend incognito; not because they are aware that Duryodhan would never return their kingdom at the end of this period and they would have to fight their Kaurav relations; but because Panchali has stopped talking to them for the last one month.

After leaving their kingdom, the Pandavs first came to Kamyak forest. But now they have built their ashram in Dvaita forest on the riverbank and are presently residing there. They have with them Dhaumya, the family priest and other Brahmins, Indrasen, the charioteer and many male and female servants. Draupadi has Sevanti, a young companion, with her. Draupadi is rather busy. She has to run a large household even in exile. The copper pot, which she got as a gift from the Sun God, has made the job of cooking somewhat easier. The food she cooks in it is never exhausted until she has eaten. It does not reduce a bit even after a thousand people have been served. She does all the duties of a housewife. The only thing she does not do is talking to her husbands. If it becomes unavoidable, servants act as intermediaries.

The Pandavs have already spent almost four months in the forest. Till now Yudhisthir has been in a very happy frame of mind, as if he had got quite used to this life of exile. Bhim, of course, had expressed his irritation in the beginning but nowadays he is merrily occupied with hunting. Arjun, Nakul and Sahadev, too, have forgotten the pain of losing a kingdom. But at present, they are all worried because of Draupadi’s change of mood.

Draupadi has never been able to forget the insult heaped upon her in the dice-hall. Neither has she been able to ignore the grief of a kingdom lost. She has often been heard lamenting that Yudhisthir’s obtuseness and the other husbands’ worthlessness were at the root of all her misery. Yudhisthir tried on many occasions to console her. Bhim, too, repeatedly vowed he that he would not let matters rest till he had drunk Duhshasan’s blood and broken Duryodhan’s thigh. The other three also often tried to tell her that thirteen years would pass in a jiffy and they would see good days again. But all in vain. Draupadi, unable to suppress her anger, has finally stopped talking to them.

Dvaraka is very far from Dvaita forest. Even then, Krishna visits them occasionally on his chariot. Some times, Satyabhama also accompanies him. This time, however, he has come alone. He heard the details of the present impasse and came to Draupadi’s room.

Krishna and the Pandavs are cousins. He and Arjun are of the same age. In those days, there was no specific form of address that could satisfactorily describe the relationship between Krishna and Draupadi. Even if it did exist, there were technical difficulties, because he was younger than her husbands, Yudhisthir and Bhim, and at the same time, older than Nakul and Sahadev. Draupadi’s actual name was Krishnaa and therefore they had established a friendship between themselves. They addressed each other by their proper names. Having exchanged the customary pleasantries, Krishna asked with a smile,

“My dear Krishnaa, why is your moon-like face looking like a blackened kitchen- pot?�

Draupadi said, “ Krishna, your levity is not appreciated.�

Krishna said, “What is your problem? Tell me how the Pandavs have failed to meet your needs. Do you want fine muslin or jeweled ornaments? Or perfumes perhaps? It is true that grains and cereals are not easily available here. It is quite possible that a monotonous diet of meat, fruits and roots has made you lose appetite and consequently, made you unhappy. Shall I send you cereals and pulses? Do you want a cow to give you milk? Or perhaps, butter, oil, sugar, salt, turmeric and ginger? Shall I send you ten or twenty bottles of exquisite wine? We have various kinds of wines and spirits available at Dvaraka. Here, of course, you may not get anything but toddy.�

Draupadi said, “No, no, I don’t want any of those things. Madhav, you are wise. People say that you are also omniscient. Can you tell me the reasons for my misfortune? Have you seen any person as unfortunate as me?�

Krishna said, “ Oh, many. Ask any of my wives. Each of them will tell you that she is the one and only hapless wretch in this world and an ill-starred person. They are of the firm opinion that I am the sole cause of all their temporal and spiritual disasters. Krishnaa, don’t worry. God is great.�

“You are a stooge of God. You can only see his magnanimity, not his cruelty.“

“Yajnaseni, why are you thinking only of your misfortunes? Remember all the good things that have happened to you. You are the queen of Indraprasth. Whose glory is greater than yours? These bad times will not last; you will soon regain your lost status. You have risen from fire, you are exquisitely beautiful, your father, Drupad, king of Panchal, is still alive and you have two very brave and powerful brothers. Your five sons are receiving education at Dvaraka along with Abhimanyu. You have five great husbands, four younger and four elder brothers-in-law.�

“Where did you get these brothers-in-law? I have nothing to do with the sons of Dhritarashtra.�

“Your brothers-in-law are here with you. Have you not heard the couplet:

‘The eldest Pandav is Panchali’s husband and eldest brother-in-law; the youngest Pandav is her husband and the youngest brother-in-law. The other three are husbands and both younger and elder brothers-in-law’.�

“Bah! Ain’t I lucky!�

“Panchali, don’t be angry. There is none in the world who can be called faultless. Yudhisthir is a simpleton and he loves a game of dice. That is why all this has happened. He is repentant. So, don’t torture him any more. Your other husbands are obedient to their eldest brother and so they really cannot go against his wishes. Don’t consider them worthless.�

Thus, Krishna tried to console her in various ways, quoting scriptures on the duties of a wife. All in vain. She would not budge. So, Krishna left her and went back to the Pandavs.

Dhaumya, the priest, and the other Brahmins live in a large hut. All have been summoned here in honour of Krishna’s visit. Yudhisthir and his brothers respectfully escorted Krishna to that conference.

Yudhisthir said, “ Honourable Dhaumya and Brahmins, your attention please! Vasudev Krishna, you too listen. Draupadi has lost her balance because of the insults heaped upon her in the Kaurav court and the subsequent loss of kingdom. She is very upset with her husbands and has not spoken to us for a month. I request all of you to kindly find a way out of our present intolerable predicament.�

Dhaumya said, “I can quote from Vedas, Puranas and other scriptures to instruct her on the duties of a wife. I can also scare her with the possible results of sin.�

Krishna said, “All that would have no effect. I have just tried. Nothing happened.�

Yudhisthir said, “Then what is the solution?�

Haumya, an uncle of Dhaumya and a strong old Brahmin, said, “It is not at all difficult to subdue Panchali. Pandavs have become highly henpecked. They have pampered the daughter of Drupad too much. They are actually scared of this common wife of theirs. Dharmaraj Yudhisthir, listen to me! There is a very easy way out. She is not your only wife. You have a wife of your very own: Devika, King Shaivya’s daughter. Bhim too has three more wives: Hidimba, the Rakshasi, Kali, Shalya’s sister and Balandhara, the princess of Kashi. Arjun has three other wives: Chitrangada, princess of Manipur, Ulupi, the daughter of the Nags and Subhadra, Krishna’s sister. Nakul has one other wife: Karenumati, daughter of the king of Chedi. Sahadev too has another wife: the daughter of Jarasandha, – I can’t recall her name. Well, bring these nine co-wives of Panchali. Her vanity will no doubt take a beating when they come and you too will be able to enjoy the company of your multiple wives.�

Yudhisthir said, “Honourable Brahmin, your proposal is very unfair. Draupadi has suffered much. How can we visit her with more grief? It is true that we have other wives, but none of them is our principal wife. None but Panchali can be our companion in our exile in forest. Krishna, you are our guide in all our distress. Please find a way to make Panchali see reason.�

Krishna thought for a while and said, “Dharmaraj, I will do something. With your permission, I shall take your leave today. One of my maternal uncles, Rajarshi Rohit, lives at Vanaprastha Ashram, about ten miles north from here. I shall meet him and return in two days.�

Krishna climbed on the chariot and told Daruk, the charioteer, “Drive north and go to the ashram of the sage, Jwalajjat.�

The sage Jwalajjat is about fifty years of age. His body is huge, fair and ruddy. His hair and beard are flame-colored and that is why people call him Jwalajjat. He welcomed Krishna and said,

“Janardan, I met you last at Prabhas about three years back. It is my good fortune that I meet you today again. Tell me, what can I do for you?�

Krishna said, “O great sage, my beloved relatives, the Pandavs, having lost their kingdom are presently living at Dvaita forest. Currently, they are passing through a crisis. I have come for your help to get them out of their quandary. Do you, Sir, know any woman who is readily available?�

Jwalajjat said, “ I do not have any woman etc. I am a bachelor. Where will I get a woman in this lonely forest? But yes, Panchachura, the heavenly nymph, does come to me occasionally to listen to the scriptures. But she is hardly pretty. “

Krishna said, “I do not need a pretty woman. Can she scream? That will serve my purpose. Now listen to my request.�

Krishna narrated his request in minute detail. Jwalajjat guffawed loudly and said, “Vasudev, people call you a wicked schemer. But I find that you are a benevolent schemer. Your purpose is good. Don’t worry; I will certainly honor your request. I will reach the ashram of the Pandavs in two days, in the afternoon.�

Krishna touched his feet and took his leave. Then he drove further north and reached the ashram of Rajarshi Rohit, the brother of Rohini, Balabhadra’s mother. He was presently living in the ashram with his wife. He was naturally happy to see Krishna and said,

“My son, I am meeting you after a long time. Your aunt and I will be happy if you spend a few days here. I hope all is well at Dvaraka.�

Krishna said, “Revered uncle, everything is fine. I have come to pay my respects to you, but I can’t stay long. I have to return to the ashram of the Pandavs within two days.�

About two to three hundred people stay with the Pandavs. Twice every day they have to be fed. There is no market at Dvaita forest. So rice etc., are not available. Once in a blue moon, tribals like the Pukkasas bring some barley and honey. Therefore, the principal diet of the Pandavs consists of meat from hunting and forest products like fruits, roots and leafy vegetables. Everyday, after completing the morning ablutions, the Pandavs go out to hunt. Today they were happy to find a boar because back at the ashram, the Brahmins relished pork. Arjun shot it with an arrow, but it did not die. It sped into the forest. At that moment, all the Pandavs released their arrows together. And at once a woman screamed,

“Oh my beloved, I am killed!�
Oh no, had they killed a woman?

The Pandavs quickly entered the forest, hearts pumping with anxiety and found the dead boar. There was no one else. They searched everywhere but did not find anyone.

Bhim said, “It must be one of the tricks of the Rakshasas. Marich misled Ram with a similar trick.�

But Yudhisthir was scared. He said, “Let us quickly go back to the ashram. I don’t know if anything untoward has happened there. Bhim, carry the boar.�

On their return, they were relieved to find that nothing had happened. Panchali cooked the boar in her copper pot that Surya had gifted her and all gorged themselves with that well-cooked pork. In the afternoon, all were sitting under a Banyan tree. Dhaumya was narrating the story of Nachiketa and Yama. Draupadi, too, sat a few steps behind and was listening to the sacred story. At that moment of time sage Jwalajjat arrived like an avenging fury. His long, matted hair and beard were like raging flame, his face was flushed with anger, and his eyes were bulging. An angry frown creased his forehead.

Jwalajjat roared, “You killers of women, you sinners, I will curse you all to hell today!�

Yudhisthir folded his hands and said, “Lord, what sin have we committed?�

Jwalajjat said, “You have killed my beloved with your arrows. Fie on your expertise with the bow and arrow. You have killed the wife of a sage instead of killing a boar.�

The five brothers fell at the feet of the sage. Panchali too folded her hands and shed copious tears.

Yudhisthir said, “Lord, we have unknowingly committed this great sin. We shall accept with bowed heads whatever punishment you give us, however difficult it may be.�

Draupadi came forward and said, “O great sage, your wife has been killed by the arrows of my husband. As a punishment for that, please take my life and spare my husbands. O Second Pandav, prepare a pyre, I will enter fire and sacrifice my life.�

Jwalajjat again roared, “ I see that you are a very stupid woman. Will my wife live if you sacrifice your life? I want a wife and I want her immediately. I have been rendered wifeless by the Pandavs and therefore I want Panchali, the wife of the Pandavs.�

Having said this, the sage Jwalajjat started dancing and kicking the earth like a man possessed.

Yudhisthir said with folded hands, “O sage, be charitable. Ask for anything but Panchali because our beloved is more important than our lives. She is to be looked after as a mother and respected as an elder sister. How can we forsake her? We would prefer to be burnt to cinders by the fire of your curse. Please spare Panchali.�

Jwalajjat said, “Oh how foolish can you be. If you burn, then Panchali will also join you in death. Unnecessarily, I too will be involved in the sin of killing a woman. No, I want Panchali.�

Bhim then folded his hands and said, “O Sage, let me suggest something, please listen. Accept the eldest wife of the Pandav clan, Hidimba. She was married to me much before Panchali.�

Jwalajjat said, “You are a wicked cheat. You want to pass off a Rakshasi onto my shoulders.�

Bhim said, “Lord, even though Hidimba is a Rakshasi, she does not look too bad when she assumes human form. In case you do not consider her enough, we have eight spare wives. Take all and spare Panchali. I am sure that my brothers will agree.�

Nakul and Sahadev said, “Oh, but surely!�

Jwalajjat said, “Your wives are not here and you cannot gift away something which is not available. I want a wife now and I want only Panchali.�

Arjun said, “Lord, please spare Dharmaraj and Panchali. And for the present, please burn the four of us and curb your anger. Then, pick a nice daughter of a sage in good time.�

Jwalajjat said, “All of you are nincompoops. However, I am somewhat pleased to see your anxiety. I won’t gain anything by burning you. I want a wife who will look after me. If, however, you insist upon sticking to Draupadi, then all five of you must become my slaves for the rest of your lives.�

Yudhisthir said, “O sage, we agree. We shall serve you as your slaves for the rest of our lives.�

Dhaumya said, “O great muni, won’t it be highly improper to do that? Instead, why don’t you prescribe some penance like eating the five holy cow-products, Chandrayana, etc.? They don’t have any money now. But when they get back their kingdom after thirteen years, they will give you as much as you want.�

Jwalajjat roared again, “Who the hell are you, Brahmin, poking your nose into our affairs? Anyway, somebody bring me a long rope!�

Yudhisthir said, “Lord, you don’t need a rope. Please tie us up with our scarves.�

Jwalajjat tied one end of the scarves to the waist of each of the brothers and went out of the ashram, holding the bunch of the other ends in his hand. Draupadi screamed and fainted. Dhaumya and others stood dumb-founded. Draupadi, on regaining consciousness, found herself resting on Sevanti’s lap. Krishna was fanning her with a Palmyra-leaf.

Draupadi said, “Alas! My husbands, where are you?�

Krishna said, “Krishnaa, be calm. They are quite safe. They are presently sitting under the Banyan tree and reciting the Aghamarshan mantra to remove their sin. I will take you to them as soon as you feel better.�

“Where is that dangerous sage? �

“No fear. He was taking the Pandavs away, tied like animals, when fortunately I met him. I told him, ‘Lord, what are you doing? These fellows are useless, comfort-loving, lazy Kshatriyas. They will not do any work and merely demolish your food.’ He said, ‘Then I don’t want them. Bring me Panchali.’ I said, ‘Panchali is even more useless and more comfort loving. She only knows how to make herself up. It is better that I send you a hard-working Braja-woman when I return. Please accept this cow and calf instead of Panchali – at least you will have milk, curd, etc., to eat. My uncle Rohit has given it to me.’ Sage Jwalajjat was happy with that and released your husbands.�

Draupadi said, “Great is the cow that is as valuable as the queen of the Pandavs. But how can the Pandavs cleanse themselves of the sin of killing the wife of a sage?�

Krishna laughed and said, “No sage’s wife was killed. The nymph Panchachura is not exactly his wife. You can call her one who merely serves him. The boar only slightly touched her with his tusk; she panicked, screamed, ran to the ashram and fainted. Jwalajjat thought she was dead. After the Pandavs were released, I accompanied the sage to his ashram and found her swinging merrily on the swing.�

Draupadi said, “Krishna, take me immediately to my husbands. Alas, I am guilty; I have ignored them for a month. How can I apologize and ask for their forgiveness?�

“Panchali, don’t embarrass them by asking for their forgiveness. They are not upset with you. They are now as eager as a thirsty Chatak bird to hear you speak.�

“Govinda, what shall I tell them?�

“Nothing makes men happier than listening to their own praise from their wives. Krishnaa, go and praise them.�

“Alas Krishna, I have always scolded them. How can words of praise come out of my black mouth? Please teach me what to say. �

“My dear Krishnaa, the Goddess of speech will rest on your tongue. Publicly celebrate them without any hesitation. Now, come with me to see your husbands. Sevanti, are the garlands ready?� Sevanti pointed to a basket, “Those are all I have. No other flower except Kadamb could be found.� Krishna said, “That will do.�

The five Pandavs, surrounded by the Brahmins, were sitting under the Banyan tree. They had just finished their recitation. They stood up when they saw Draupadi and Krishna coming towards them.
Draupadi folded her hands, fixed her gaze on the Pandavs and stood motionless like a sculpted statue.

Krishna said, “Panchali, break your silence.�

Draupadi, her voice dripping with emotion, said, “Oh my five husbands, born of gods, I am now overcome with the glory of my husbands. I will say whatever comes to my mind. Please excuse my garrulity. I was bewitched when I cast my eyes on Dhananjay at my father’s place. I was thrilled when he pierced the target and I considered myself lucky a hundred times over as I knew that I would get him as my husband. But fate and my elders did not bother about my sentiments and married me off to all the five brothers. The Lord in my heart is my witness that within a short while, all my grievances were gone and my five husbands merged into one in my heart. As the five senses please the heart singly and jointly, so my five husbands brightened my heart individually and jointly.

“O eldest Pandav, when I was the Queen of Indraprasth, I expended a lot of wealth in buying dresses, ornaments, etc., and bestowed gifts lavishly on my favorites. You gave me, without any question or complaint, whenever and whatever I wanted. I scolded the servants and your favorite servants complained to you against me, but you turned a deaf ear to them, lest the pride and prestige of the queen be hurt. You are peaceable, forgiving and pious. I scolded you many times unreasonably, without understanding your sense of propriety and justice. But you were never upset with my unpleasant gibberish. O revered Dharmaraj, who has no enemy, who can fathom your greatness?

“O Second Pandav, you are the powerful one who even defeated Jarasandh. You deserve to perform only such labors as are impossible. But I set you to do small jobs and you were happy to do all those just because you loved me. You like eating and are an expert cook. Many experienced cooks used to feed you to your satisfaction. But in this forest, you are satisfied with what little I give you. You never complain if the food is tasteless, too salty or without salt. O tiger among men, the kingdom will be regained with the joint effort of all of you but only you can avenge me properly. Remind Duryodhan and Duhshashan in the battlefield that no one can get away with insulting the queen of the Pandavas.

“O Third Pandav, you are not the eldest, but even then all your brothers accept your leadership in the battlefield. You are the beloved of the gods, the possessor of all good qualities, an incomparable bowman, as handsome as Skanda, the general of the gods, and an expert in the arts of music and dance. Hrishikesh Krishna is your bosom friend. I was upset when you married Subhadra and brought her to Indraprasth. But to tell you the truth, now I have no complaint. The woman, who is the wife of five husbands, cannot grudge a co-wife. Subhadra is my dearest sister. I have left my five sons with her at Dvaraka and I have no worry on their account. O brave one, you will be the leader of the Pandav troops in the forthcoming Kuru-Pandav war and with the help of Vasudev, will defeat all your adversaries. Grandfather Bhishma is my guru, your teacher Dronacharya deserves my obeisance, but they did not protect the queen, a daughter-in-law of the family. They did not obey the dictates of chivalry but remained frozen like cowards. Savyasachi, remind them of their default in the battlefield by your sharp, heart-piercing arrows.

“O fourth Pandav, you are handsome and comfort-loving, but invincible in the battlefield. At Indraprasth you dressed in expensive clothes and valuable jewelry. But here, seeing me without ornaments, you too have given up wearing ornaments and other decorative things like garlands, etc. I am impressed with your empathy. You conquered many kingdoms like Dasharna, Trigarta, Panchanad, etc., just before the Rajasuya Yajna. You will obtain similar glory in the coming war.

“O Youngest Pandav, you are my husband and youngest brother-in-law, an object of my love and affection, especially of the latter. Mother Kunti specially instructed me when we were setting off on our exile, saying, ‘Panchali, look after my Sahadev, see that he is not scared in danger.’ O fearless subjugator of enemies, I have never found you wanting in courage. On the other hand, you were always eager for battle. In the earlier days, you defeated the wicked Neel of Mahismati and the human demon named Kalmukh. I am sure you will come out victorious against the Kaurav rascals."

“O my god-like, magnanimous husbands, no one thinks of the faults of the gods while praising them. I, too, do not recall your defects now. Today you were ready to give up your lives for me. You were prepared to accept slavery just for my sake. Which other woman is more loved by her husband than I? Not Sita who was exiled by her husband, nor Damayanti who was forsaken by her husband. You left your wives with their parents and have brought along only me on this long exile of thirteen years. You are satisfied with one fifth of me when you could have had one, two or three exclusive wives. Who is more fortunate than I? Which other husbands have more control over their senses than you? Long back, I had garlanded you, one by one, on the same day, in my father’s house. Today, again, I am doing the same, under the open firmament of the forest. O my magnificent husbands, be contented and look upon me with happy eyes.�

Panchali garlanded her five husbands, Sevanti blew the conch-shell, the Brahmins uttered congratulatory words and Krishna happily clapped his hands. Yudhisthir then laid his hand on the head of Panchali and said,

“Panchali, you look tired. Come, let’s go home and rest.�

Yudhisthir and Draupadi left. Arjun took Krishna aside and asked,

“Where did you get that sage Jwalajjat? He has acted very well but he was making horrible faces to suppress laughter. Fortunately, Dharmaraj, Panchali and others did not notice.�
Bhim said, “You, Krishna! Come here! I suppose Panchali would not trouble us again, eh? What do you think?�
Krishna said, “Of course she will. Her vocal chords are not affected in the least.�

– Translated by Major General Shekar Sen, VSM
from the original in Bengali by Rajshekhar Basu

Dost sahib:

On C. H. Atma,

This is my favorite.

"Mandve tale Gareeb ke, do phool khil rahein hain..."

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=pK9odxjzGbE&feature=related

Laddu,

"Buddhist cut short the early 3 stages of man's life and emphasized upon sanyasa dharma."

This is not laddu but real pedha. This was the bane. Young people taking Sanyas. They forgot even Drona and Ashwathama were warrior Bramhins. One can be a Bhikshu or Sanyasi when he is trained warrior like Drona.

Re: # 762

"...appear after the 7th century AD that was very different to the more gentle and compassionate traditions that prevailed earlier.,...."

Nothing could be more violent than the kalinga days of king Ashoka......notihng could be more violent than the description of wars in Mahabharata days.......even Ramayana had its violence.......Hinduism was NEVER gentle like it became after Jainism and Buddhism.......

Sanaysa and the "gentleness" was an exclusive dharma of the last days of man's journey in his life after he has gone through the stages of Brhamacharya, Grahastha and Vanaprastha.......

Buddhist cut short the early 3 stages of man's life and emphasized upon sanyasa dharma.

Hindus FORGOT to carry 'kshatra' (weapons) after Buddhist monasticism was spread by erstwhile Kshatriyas like Ashoka and became weak. Thus, the fact is that the Hindus became "gentle" after Buddhism and Jainism was spread and it weakened the kings's resolve to fight the wars.

Much like Arjuna lost the resolve to fight for dharma at the sight of his own kin. These Buddhist and Jain kings lost the resolve to fight for the dharma and were not able to defend themselves and the rest of people against the momeen hordes.

Hindus need kshatriyas in order to survive. Whenever , hindus took to violence they were actually able to save the "gentler" face of their dharma.

Murad,

"But believe me when I say that a new revivalist and militant `Brahminism' began to appear after the 7th century AD that was very different to the more gentle and compassionate traditions that prevailed earlier."

What is still being practiced is more of Jainism and Buddhism. It was probably too much of gentleness and compassion. Adi Shankara tried to restore the balance to prepare for the coming times of brute knocking on your door. He probably did not succeed. He should have asked all Hindus/Sanatanis/Buddhist/Jains to bear arms and be martial.
Ahimsa also means not allowing others to do himsa, by you flexing your arms and weapons. That is your Dharma.

Laddu (735) and Pappu (739) make a valid point that I should provide the sources to back my statements. You had asked for these too in my last article on the persecution of Buddhists and jains that I ferreted out and posted.

I have some very credible sources that you ask for but will need a little time to locate them precisely. But believe me when I say that a new revivalist and militant `Brahminism' began to appear after the 7th century AD that was very different to the more gentle and compassionate traditions that prevailed earlier.

Eklavya,

"pappu, that's very good style. Professional writer?"

Style of script or the writing? It's not my writing, I am merely quoting. No, professional cut and paster!

BJ2,

Don't you think there are more Indians on this board, that too Nort Indians?

Pakistanis are too busy to come here. Eklavya sounds Indian.

re: tahmed's Islamic Defense # 983563

Subject: The Godhra Riots

tahmed: ...two wrongs don't make a right...you hindus are the worst...blah blah blah....

hindu: um..so what about muhammad beheading the 700 civilians?

tahmed: I have a VERY good answer to this question. However, because it's OBVIOUS that you are bigoted, irrational, and have absolutely NO logic, therefore you are not even worth answering......So there!!

Re: # 756

In punjab Vedi Brahmins (Bedis) became kshartiyas, Vaishyas became Papajis and took to Five-K-s including the mandatory weapon of Katara.

This "re-invention" was smooth because the dharma did not prohibit other varna groups to morp into weapon bearers to protect themselves from the momeen hordes after the complete decimation of their warrior class.

It is almost equivalent to ordinary civilians taking conscription to the army when in danger of complete annihilation from the enemies.

And , as I repeat, every hindu is willing to become a Kshatriya in case Paki momeens threaten our existence through terrorism or nuclear black mailing!!

Re: # 748

"...Kshatriyas must have been re-invented twice, ..."

We need to understand the concept of Kshatriya - it is of a dwija who bears arms.

So , a dwija who 'bears arms' is obligated to protect the dharma with the kshatra (arms) and is a Kshatriya.

This implies that even if a born Brahmin or Vaishya takes up arms can become a kshatriya. So , and dwija can be "re-invented" as a kshatriya. In the past a number other varna took to kshatra (arms) and they are vitually considered as Kshatriya.
Other varnas is "prohibited" to carry arms. Those who carried arms were considered as kshatriyas by karma.

this 're-invention' occured again in Maharashtra and Punjab when all varnas took to arms.

Pappu mere yaar, what is the point of posting in a language if your target audience is unable to understand you?!

pappu, that's very good style. Professional writer?

जगत �क जीवंत शरीर है, आर�गेनिक यूनिटी है। उसमें क�छ भी अलग-अलग नहीं है; सब संय�क�त है। दूर से दूर जो है वह भी निकट से निकट से ज�ड़ा है; अज�ड़ा क�छ भी नहीं है। इसलि� कोई इस भ�रांति में न रहे कि वह आइसोलेटेड आइलैंड है। कोई इस भ�रांति में न रहे कि कोई �क द�वीप है छोटा सा अलग-थलग।
नहीं, कोई अलग-थलग नहीं है, सब संय�क�त है। और हम पूरे समय �क-दूसरे को प�रभावित कर रहे हैं और �क-दूसरे से प�रभावित हो रहे हैं। सड़क पर पड़ा ह�आ पत�थर भी, जब आप उसके पास से ग�जरते हैं तो आपकी तरफ अपनी किरणें फेंक रहा है। फूल भी फेंक रहा है। और आप भी �से ही नहीं ग�जर रहे हैं, आप भी अपनी किरणें फेंक रहे हैं। मैंने कहा कि चांदत�तारों से हम प�रभावित होते हैं। ज�योतिष का दूसरा और गहरा खयाल है कि चांदत�तारे भी हमसे प�रभावित होते हैं। क�योंकि प�रभाव कभी भी �कतरफा नहीं होता। जब कभी ब�द�ध जैसा आदमी जमीन पर पैदा होता है तो चांद यह न सोचे कि चांद पर उनकी, ब�द�ध की, वजह से कोई तूफान नहीं उठते, कि ब�द�ध की वजह से चांद पर कोई तूफान शांत नहीं होते! अगर सूरज पर धब�बे आते हैं और सूरज पर अगर तूफान उठते हैं और जमीन पर बीमारियां फैल जाती हैं, तो जब जमीन पर ब�द�ध जैसे व�यक�ति पैदा होते हैं और शांति की धारा बहती है और ध�यान का गहन रूप पृथ�वी पर पैदा होता है तो सूरज पर भी तूफान फैलने में कठिनाई होती है। सब संय�क�त है!
�क छोटा सा घास का तिनका भी सूरज को प�रभावित करता है और सूरज भी घास के तिनके को प�रभावित करता है। न तो घास का तिनका इतना छोटा है कि सूरज कहे कि तेरी हम फिक�र नहीं करते और न सूरज इतना बड़ा है कि यह कह सके कि घास का तिनका मेरे लि� क�या कर सकता है। जीवन संय�क�त है! यहां छोटा-बड़ा कोई भी नहीं है, �क आर�गेनिक यूनिटी है--�कात�म है। इस �कात�म का बोध अगर आ� खयाल में तो ही ज�योतिष सम� में आ सकता है, अन�यथा ज�योतिष सम� में नहीं आ सकता।

भविष�य को टटोलने की चेष�टा है ज�योतिष--अनेक-अनेक मार�गों से। उनमें �क मार�ग, जो सर�वाधिक प�रचलित ह�आ, वह ग�रह-नक�षत�रों का प�रभाव मन�ष�य के ऊपर। उसके लि� वैज�ञानिक आधार रोज-रोज मिलते चले जाते हैं। इतना तय हो गया है कि जीवन प�रभावित है। और जीवन अप�रभावित नहीं हो सकता है।

Senna#747:

My hypothesis applies only to punjab; during the mughal phase, we all know that a deal was struck with the Rajputs whereby they accepted the mughal overlordship and gave their soldiers to the mughal rulers.

Senna#747:

My hypothesis applies only to punjab; during the mughal phase, we all know that a deal was struck with the Rajputs whereby they accepted the mughal overlordship and gave their soldiers to the mughal rulers.

वैज�ञानिक कहते हैं, अभी हम यह तो नहीं कह सकते कि व�यक�तिगत रूप से कोई बच�चा प�रभावित होता होगा, लेकिन अब हम यह पक�के रूप से कह सकते हैं कि जीवन प�रभावित होता है। �क बात, व�यक�तिगत रूप से बच�चा प�रभावित होता होगा, हम अभी नहीं कह सकते हैं, लेकिन जीवन निश�चित रूप से प�रभावित होता है। और अगर जीवन प�रभावित होता है तो हमारी खोज जैसे-जैसे सूक�ष�म होगी वैसे-वैसे हम पा�ंगे कि व�यक�ति भी प�रभावित होता है।
इसमें �क बात और खयाल में ले लेनी जरूरी है। जैसा सोचा जाता रहा है--वह तथ�य नहीं है--�सा सोचा जाता रहा है कि ज�योतिष विकसित विज�ञान नहीं है। प�रारंभ उसका ह�आ और फिर वह विकसित नहीं हो सका। लेकिन मेरे देखे स�थिति उलटी है। ज�योतिष किसी सभ�यता के द�वारा बह�त बड़ा विकसित विज�ञान है, फिर वह सभ�यता खो गई और हमारे हाथ में ज�योतिष के अधूरे सूत�र रह ग�। ज�योतिष कोई नया विज�ञान नहीं है जिसे विकसित होना है, बल�कि कोई विज�ञान है जो पूरी तरह विकसित ह�आ था और फिर जिस सभ�यता ने उसे विकसित किया वह खो गई। और सभ�यता�ं रोज आती हैं और खो जाती हैं। फिर उनके द�वारा विकसित चीजें भी अपने मौलिक आधार खो देती हैं, सूत�र भूल जाते हैं, उनकी आधारशिला�ं खो जाती हैं।
विज�ञान आज इसे स�वीकार करने के निकट पह�ंच रहा है कि जीवन प�रभावित होता है। और �क छोटे बच�चे के जन�म के समय उसके चित�त की स�थिति ठीक वैसी होती है जैसे बह�त सेंसिटिव फोटो प�लेट की। इस पर दोत�तीन बातें और खयाल में ले लें, ताकि सम� में आ सके कि जीवन प�रभावित होता है। और अगर जीवन प�रभावित होता है तो ही ज�योतिष की कोई संभावना निर�मित होती है, अन�यथा निर�मित नहीं होती। ज�ड़वां बच�चों को सम�ने की थोड़ी कोशिश करें।

Re: # 741

Dost Sahib:

Murad Baigs assertions are mostly contradictory. I highly suspect his motivation.

You make an interesting points. Kshatriyas must have been re-invented twice, first to make a transition from Buddhism to Hinduism, and later happened during the transtion of power from Hinduism to Islam.

In the latter case, I think soldier were needed, but as you mentioned earlier somewhere, that non-muslims could not own land or carry weapons that must have given the motivation for them to practice their art of war, and own lands that came from successful pursuits.

In the former case of re-invention of Kshatriyas for transition from Buddhism to Hinduism, again your reason is more plausible that upper-castes were involved at the institutional level (Kings court, temples and monastries) in Brahminism and Buddhism. Therefore, quite interchangeable to these ideologies.

This transition cannot begin otherwise, purely through violence, even if Murad Baig's thesis of violence to wipe out Buddhism in India is partly accepted that at some stage there was violence.

Shahadat .Shahid . shahid bhagat Singh..Shahid Minasr



"any incentive for dying (giving up LIFE) is to be compensated atleast by some terminology .Its Amar hojana..Does any one Not be Mar (dead ) after there death ?Its PATRIOTIC ( built up to frenzy staus)to die for "cause"

Its no different 'sacrifice,Qurbani

Jannah is replaced by Amar .

May b/c of reincarnation promise of born as brahman

Re: # 745

" being not a soldier of ANY kind as most even Madarsa student dont know of 'Hourie Brothel' non sensense by Islamophobic ."

This is complete nonsense - every full bloodied momeen knows about Shahadat, Qurbani gets a sure seat in that Jannah which is like a brothel full of houries and wine.

Every PAki curriculum extols the virtues of Shahadat and Qurabani in the name of blood thirsty supremacist Allah.

Every media is full of such Qurbanis by the PAkis. Every dead Paki soldier makes a Qurabani for the Allah and reaches his Jannah.

Kisko Bewakoof banane ki koshish kar rahe ho!!

Re: # 736

" to fight for next life in that Allah's brothel called jannah'

This oft repeated charge that it has become cliche.any incentive for dying (giving up LIFE) is to be compensated atleast by some terminology .Its Amar hojana..Does any one Not be Mar (dead ) after there death ?Its PATRIOTIC ( built up to frenzy staus)to die for "cause"

I being not a soldier of ANY kind as most even Madarsa student dont know of 'Hourie Brothel' non sensense by Islamophobic .

Palestinian Iraqi Are dying for nore basic cause there country and the land .

"So, you would see that even up to this day, there are hardly any hindu or sikh rajputs in Indian punjab"

That may be so .But Chauhan ,singhs common name among Rajputs & many non descript tiles are spread over very larger areas Bihar u P ,M.P ,Rajasthan I have incomplete list off the head.
brahmin ae not responsible

but buddhism jainism in bihar regoin in previous post down pappu/laddu/jang theorised

tahmed#737:

Right conclusion based on wrong analysis. It is true that India does not have much respect in its neighbourhood, but it has nothing to do with Modi or Gujarat and everything to do with the wrong policies pursued by indian leaders, especially in the earlier socialist period. Indeed, India is much more respected internationally now despite Modi than it was ten or twenty years ago. Episodes like Gujarat in 2002 or Tinanmen Square in 1989 do not have a permanent effect on a country's international image. Reality sucks!

tahmed32,

"-2 + (-2) = -4. which is where communalism has put India - a population giant (1 billion people) and an up and coming economic giant, but a political pygmy in the region compared to its population size."

Would you please elaborate? Do you mean if Nehru had not happened and India had gone completely into the camp of West/US, we would have got seat on security council? If we had Hindu Suharto then we would have got rid of religious minorities which include Christians? Granted then Gujarath would not have happened. We would be economically bigger than China, a Japan with 1.2Billion people.

baig sahib:

"It is also strange that though China had just as many wars as any ancient empire religion was never used as a weapon of state or to persecute others."


If you were to give up your agenda of hindu-muslim same-same, you would have included pre-islamic India also in the same category. You have made assertions after assertions in your various articles but, except for quoting other people with the same agenda, you have not provided any real evidence when an Indian ruler fought another because he was a practitioner of a false faith; if you have any documentary evidence to the contrary, we would all like to see it.

As regards to the reinvention of kshatriya, you seem to believe that the mere repetition of a statement is a proof in itself. As far as I know - and I may not know a lot - the evil brahmins had no such mechanism available to them for reinventing kshatriyas.

My contention (please note that I am merely contending, not making an assertion) that something like this happened in punjab where rajputs converted to islam en masse because earning their livelihood as soldiers became difficult as non-muslims during the earlier phase of sultanat rulers when sharia was strictly enforced. So, you would see that even up to this day, there are hardly any hindu or sikh rajputs in Indian punjab while a large number of Pakistani muslims still proudly call themselves rajputs.

Corrections in 727:
"Sqges, saints and sadhus do miracles out of concern for growth of the followers. They infact the wrath of the Natural Law for Karma not go along its natural course. But to show the correct path and reduce the pain of a follower, so that his consciousness can latch on to higher/divine things, miracles are done."

Sqges, saints and sadhus do miracles out of concern for growth of the followers. They infact suffer the the wrath of the Natural Law for Karma by not allowing it to go along its natural course. But to show the correct path and reduce the pain of a follower, so that his consciousness can latch on to higher/divine things, miracles are done.

Murad,

Re 730:
"I agree with you that many gurus were false and mislead their followers so I do not subscribe to the guru - shishya theory that so many gurus promote for self aggrandisement and to sell their own ideas."

It seems you are in a digital or binary world. Where did I say gurus were false. How can one say such things? If guru Vashishtha was false then he would not be able to create shishya such as Ram. If Guru Sandipani was false then he would not be able to create shishya like Krishna. Even in today's world if guru AnandaMurthy was false he would not be able to create such a large and social servicing organization. Same is true with Shivanada, Chinmayananda and Ma Amruthananda. Many of them are beyond aggrandizing. They do not have families or progenies to support. Very calculative and strict Americans and Europeans would not donate so much money to them. Compare them to Christian, Islamic and Communists who promote only one idea, and ie, when you convert you are different from your neighbors, relations and it's your duty to spread the religion/ism. Who are devillish? Even the self aggrandazing hedonistic gurus, who are rare and wont last long, are better than these who spread the vicious ideaologies of religion and isms.

"Parmahansa, Osho, Vivekananda and others were great thinkers and philosophers but they were not historians."

Soo? What is the point? Did you read the Hindi doc by the Jain by birth philosopher and has doubts about the dates in this document? Who has more to lose in terms of credibility than a so called paid history researcher, who does not have any following but has to pander to the boss or who ever ispaying his bill? Who would lie and concoct history?
Also please do not throw names Ketkar and Vaid. Quote them in context. Most of the corruption by Brahmins or upper castes is a myth to divide the society. This is done to gain political and economic powers by foreigners. You chase the Roopie coming to a so called historian back to its source, you will find either a foreigner or political ideology behind. Dange's daughter does not marry a dalit but a brahmin who converted to Christianity.

I asked you to backtrack from the present reality. Think you are from Mars and visiting earth. Take an example of some Jinha. You as a historian might have more access to his ancestory. If you live in Pakistan you have access to his relatives. If you are in India you can telephone them and interview them. Find the reason why Jinha's ancestor converted to Islam. My guess is it's not the spirituality in Islam but economics and social power.

"You should carefully study the philosophy of Sankhya before making comments. It is worth studying even if many do not like it because it does not subscribe to the idea of a great prayer answering god who can miraculously help its worshippers."

If you have studied then can you please elaborate Sankhya. I genuinely want to learn. Please do not ask me to read a book. Write 20 lines on it.

Praying even for material gain removes attention from the anguish of wants, atleast for few minutes. You forget for those minutes yourselves. Five times Namaz is good.

pappu (continued) in other words, you were using the wrong equation, i.e. 2 + 2 = 4. For a situation of two wrongs, the equation would be

-2 + (-2) = -4. which is where communalism has put India - a population giant (1 billion people) and an up and coming economic giant, but a political pygmy in the region compared to its population size.

#726 pappu: ever hear of "two wrongs dont make a right"?

Re: # 725

Murad,

Instead of repeating the same why not discuss your theories with evidences.

"Remember that `Hinduism', as we know it now, was not their religion as there were numerous sects and cults worshipping Shiv, Vishnu and numerous other deities."

You mean the Rudra, Vishnu and Sri (devi) were not part of Vedic lineage and these deities were "assimilated" from other sects??
That is nonsense, the Yajurvediya Sri-Sukhta, Vishnu-Sukta and Rudram are contrary evidences to your flights of fancy!!

There are always two sets of mantra wordshipping padhaati in Hinduism - the Vedik and the Tantric and both coincide in terms of deity of worship.

"The Brahmins controlled all these and refined it into the religion we call Hinduism today."

Brahmins were theoretically devoid of any real temporal power because they were ashrita on the other varnas. They were NOT supposed to make a living out of any other occupation and were required to live out of alms (Bhiksha and Dana)from those who actually controlled thetemporal power in Hinduism.

They were donated some land that was only good enough to make them sufficient in terms of food grain but that is all. They did did not RULE over the land and any one could dis-possess them and throw them out. They were completely dependent upon the kshatriyas who were the real beneficiaries of the hierarchy of hinduism. The kshatriyas had all the pleasures of temporal life - but a Brahmin is required to keep a strict holy poverty and keep regular fasts and self purificatory rites and study hard the vedas through svadhyaya all his life.


"Studies by PG Sinha, Vaidya and others suggest that these priests corrupted and altered the Sankhya Kalika of Kapil"


Now you have to substantiate your claims instead of making wild suggestings.


"Christian and Muslim prelates and mullahs were however used by temporal rulers to inspire their armies claiming to be serving god or offering divine rewards for their sacrifices in war. "

This is also untrue. Mohammad was the first to openly use his monotheism to kill idolators of Arabia. Infact, he was the one who used to inspire his gangsters to fight for next life in that Allah's brothel called jannah.

"The new caste of Kshatriya or Bramha Kshatras were reinvented during this period by the Brahmins to make them violent and destructive as they had never been earlier."

You have to substantiate you claims because any one who has read Ramayan or even Mahabharata would just pooh pooh your claims.

Re: # 734

Eklavya Anna,

"Just don't know how to get rid of those things in a hurry. Except, of course, to beg and plead and sometimes abuse."

Thats what Periyar did. He abused the superstitious Hindus and made fun of them. He introduced many
anti-supertition ideas like self-respect marriages where the ceremony would be conducted on an inauspicious day and time.

vengat ana, not just jyotishya but there is so much more in Hinduism that you and I would consider totally asinine.

Just don't know how to get rid of those things in a hurry. Except, of course, to beg and plead and sometimes abuse.

A fatwa system would be very nice, but if we asked for it, Hindus would call us fascists, hitlers, and mussolinis. LOL

Hinduism must easily be the most frustrating religion on earth.

When everything is a maya, where is the future?

asinine idea Jotishya

Hindus, we need a fatwa on this Jotishya/Joshyam and its practitioners.

Pappu,

"If you can read hindi, even this Jain fellow has this to stay about astrology which has become a dirty word today.
http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=libarchive&Language=Hindi&AllFrames= 1&CFID=26535260&CFTOKEN=71660247
There are Jotish who are crooks but it is not the falut of Jotishya."

Assuming you are batting for Jotishya, SHUT UP...Do you know predicting future is anti-God according to Hinduism?

The oft repeated line is "Jotishya is sound science, only the practitioners are fakes"...Where is the subject without practitioners? Dont give us bull crap...

Jotishya/Joshyam is just another con artist's fantastic idea...No doubt why Eklavya bemoans the dismal state of Hinduism...

Re: # 727

I agree with you that many gurus were false and mislead their followers so I do not subscribe to the guru - shishya theory that so many gurus promote for self aggrandisement and to sell their own ideas.

Parmahansa, Osho, Vivekananda and others were great thinkers and philosophers but they were not historians.

You should carefully study the philosophy of Sankhya before making comments. It is worth studying even if many do not like it because it does not subscribe to the idea of a great prayer answering god who can miraculously help its worshippers.

http://www.assam.org/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=5 03

To Shah...
2002 killings in Gujrat was supposed to happen. Gujrat had enough of Islamic barbarism (even after formation of Govt. of India in 1947). I know couple of Gandhis and Jains ( most peaceful peoples). They treat it as necessary evil.
Every year, during some or other festival, these barbaric animals create trouble and then get away for legal delay and administrative failure. Once caught and thrashed properly, and started crying foul!!!!!

Assamese rioted against Bangladeshis. Most of the so called Bengali settlers in Assam are of Bangladeshi origin. During British period, Surawardy/Fajlul Haq was Chief Minister of Bengal province, of which Assam, Chattagram and Hilly areas, Tripura was part of. That bust*** pushed these high breeding animals in Assam and Tripura. Now, the moslem population of Assam reached around 30%. Native asaamese are not follower of mediaval arab beduine, but they are tolerating...May be some day, they also loose patience....

Murad,

"Studies by PG Sinha, Vaidya and others suggest that these priests corrupted and altered the Sankhya Kalika of Kapil (perhaps the earliest indigenous philosophy)and introduced elements of `miraculous' `divine' spirituality that were absent in Sankhya, Buddhism and Jainism. They only believed in two realities of the Purush (self) and Prakriti (nature) with no divine master. This research shows how Patanjali's Yoga and the Bhagavat Gita were corrupted at this time."

Leaving history, concocted history or looking history through tainted glasses aside, look at the present reality and back track it. As I mentioned in earlier posts when the focus is on headcounts, quality and improvement of head is of no count. Islam, Christanity and Communism are headcount religions.

Sqges, saints and sadhus do miracles out of concern for growth of the followers. They infact the wrath of the Natural Law for Karma not go along its natural course. But to show the correct path and reduce the pain of a follower, so that his consciousness can latch on to higher/divine things, miracles are done. Each one of us is unique. We fall in love with diffeerent things, activities and hobbies. Different deities is the way Sanatan Dharma helped the follower to latch on to the higher/divine. Similarly the convcept of family deity and village deity came about. These are different names/manifestations for the same ie Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwar and their powers Vidya, Lakshmi and Shakti.

If you can read hindi, even this Jain fellow has this to stay about astrology which has become a dirty word today.
http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=libarchive&Language=Hindi&AllFrames= 1&CFID=26535260&CFTOKEN=71660247
There are Jotish who are crooks but it is not the falut of Jotishya.

Corruption happened in Sanatan Dharma because of few corrupt individuals. But it did not organize itself to grab material wealth, rule other folks and divide people.

You wrote:
"They only believed in two realities of the Purush (self) and Prakriti (nature) with no divine master."

This is utterly false. It is not self but Self. What we perceive as "I" is Jivatma out of ignorence. I hope you have come across analogy of two birds on a tree, one at the top and the other at the bottom branch. They are one and the same. The bottom one calls itself self and addresses the top one as Self when it becomes little more aware.

You need to read a lot or more live Sanatan Dharma. RamKrishna ParamHans lived Islam for few years and then practicedd Christanity for few years and then reverted back to Sanatan Dharma. It would be good if you live Sanatan Dharma. Be a disciple of a guru. Even some journalists went to Gurus to find how bad cheats these gurus were and turned 180 degrees around to become one themselves.

tahmed32,
"If I was new to chowk, I would have been shocked that you said this. But, having heard this line from countless Indian posters before you, I realize that in India such absurdities are considered "conventional wisdom"."

It seems 2+2 = 4 is absurd for you. Ask your self if Godhra had not happened Gujarat riots would have happened? Ask your self how many mosques and churches Hindus have demolished? Ask yourself who have started almost all the riots? Ask yourself why, when India subsidizes Haj and Kashmiri Muslims have been fed and educated almost free they are not willing to give a small land for Hindu pilgrims well being in harsh climate?

Only Indians are not saying this even Iranians are also saying that. http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Religion is an alien concept to Indians. The religious folks such as Islam, Christianity and Communism are in the business of increasing their head count. They are not worried about the quality of the head and improving it. Focus is getting the headcount by any means so that the religious group rules the land and the people. It does not treat man divine, so it violates the Natural Law. Violence is part and parcel of this idea called religion.

No one knows for sure but Hsuen Tsangs surprisingly objective account of his 14 years throughout India suggests that in Harsha's time Buddhism was strong but that Brahmin (heretics according to him) were gaining in strength. Remember that `Hinduism', as we know it now, was not their religion as there were numerous sects and cults worshipping Shiv, Vishnu and numerous other deities. The Brahmins controlled all these and refined it into the religion we call Hinduism today.

Studies by PG Sinha, Vaidya and others suggest that these priests corrupted and altered the Sankhya Kalika of Kapil (perhaps the earliest indigenous philosophy)and introduced elements of `miraculous' `divine' spirituality that were absent in Sankhya, Buddhism and Jainism. They only believed in two realities of the Purush (self) and Prakriti (nature) with no divine master. This research shows how Patanjali's Yoga and the Bhagavat Gita were corrupted at this time.

It is also strange that though China had just as many wars as any ancient empire religion was never used as a weapon of state or to persecute others. Daoism, Confucianism and later Buddhism had no room for the miraculous or divine element and the priests or monks played no role in politics.

Christian and Muslim prelates and mullahs were however used by temporal rulers to inspire their armies claiming to be serving god or offering divine rewards for their sacrifices in war. The new caste of Kshatriya or Bramha Kshatras were reinvented during this period by the Brahmins to make them violent and destructive as they had never been earlier.

Shah2,
"Faih religion what ever you call its semantic

Group when have us and them the fight

.Assamese rioted against bengali

Hindu against Sikhs

On many other smaller scale groups do kill.. why deny.
Gujrat was cruel criminal unjustifiable .only defence is insanity .Its cowardic to pick fight with weaker .You can always push some one (screaming done to me)justifying killing.

Its not necessarily Faith under attack but cultural or 'rascialnes' of that faith ."

Can we talk only about harming/killing because of faith/religion. Can you tell which is (are) that (those) religions/isms/faiths who advocate harming/killing to convert to their faith?

Please do not bring in violence due to economics, gangs, states etc? Please keep in mind that anarchist might start appearing as saints to uninitiated fools.

#722 when you are able to write an intelligent post on chowk, I will be glad to respond. any coward can exchange abuse and issue threats from the safety of the internet.

Re: # 721

Banu Hamza Banu Quraizah and the 3rd Jewish tribe.

Do you remember what happened to them.

You did not reply on the Bhatiji/Bhanji issue you could change ur name to T Ali after that

Sanatani

pappu #711 "Gujarath killing is more revenge for Godhra."

If I was new to chowk, I would have been shocked that you said this. But, having heard this line from countless Indian posters before you, I realize that in India such absurdities are considered "conventional wisdom".

No, my friend, you dont justify attacks on one set of innocent people by pointing to attacks on another set of innocent people - unless you have been "educated" in India, it seems from chowk.

If Ahmed has not read

"Anyway we are going all over. Dont know why you had to bring Gujarath. My point was simple that if physical harm was done to people in India it was not done in the name of faith"

Faih religion what ever you call its semantic

Group when have us and them the fight

.Assamese rioted against bengali

Hindu against Sikhs

On many other smaller scale groups do kill.. why deny.
Gujrat was cruel criminal unjustifiable .only defence is insanity .Its cowardic to pick fight with weaker .You can always push some one (screaming done to me)justifying killing.

Its not necessarily Faith under attack but cultural or 'rascialnes' of that faith .

Re: # 718
The post is posted in haste without editing .plz read non critically

Papuji

"Gujarath killing is more revenge for Godhra. Politicians/Britishers divided the society using religion. Pampered certain group against others using these alien concepts of minority and majority. Look at Shah2's statement saying Bengal did not have Martial history. Britisher's propagated such myths. '

DON"T AGREE

Lets say British did divide for there own benefit the sepoy mutiny is considered glriong e.g. of it.you can read the cause .
Concept of Majority minority is i think ever since pl. group was forme .Group i describe as commonthread collection of ppl agreeig to ascribe to one tenent .Definetly they can be Minority or Majority.

You do mention inlater post islamiBengal is most recent comparedo any other region of India You place it 40 my understanding as recent as 18th century .have you seenBengal regiment . dont count the bengal lance british regiment .Can bengali meet the indian army criteria .

#712

What is Sanatan Dharm .i thinkit is a term of recent nomenclature attempt to date Hinduism as ever existing since formation of Earth .if you are aethist since 'bang '.

It is purely invented term and put together half understood 'iskon baba ram deo ssri sri ravi sankar yoga gurus...etc . unscientific chakras and hypothesis least of unudersatndable to any one less than Phd or Masters educaion'I would appreciate synopsis of this loong write up on internet .
................
'Bengalis moved to Vijayanagar, Konkan in Karnataka and Maharashtra'

I have Konkan friend but i wont contest that info.


"Today's Marwadi traders and Baniyas are Bihari Kshatriyas converted to Jainism"

Afik Marwaris are people particularly from Jodhpur area of RAJASTHAN spread all over even into B Desh

Kshatrias are martial race and prolly Rajput of bihar possibly .Jain is sedantry ppl and they dont like to be called Hindu ( some)or Khatriya (which is Hindu0 Afik Jain is also Khatryas or not} are dwindling b/c of lack of power vis a vi with all ,Hindu,

#687 Posted by Shah2 on June 24, 2008 1:53:17 pm

{"Salim (real) bhai I am sorry I am confused with decoy nicks with real nicks i thaught this was some inposter "}

Shah Bhai Sahib,
You are right. There is a "Saleem_Chauhan" who is actually Stuckass trying to improve his appearance. :) No problem, I knew that you and I were friends.

Shah2,

"Why did so called khthriyas inclined to Jainism budhist'
are NOW not so but
on
contrary abusive violent casteist Naxal infested ranver sena .

Certainly muslim did not convet buddhist more manageable and governable into violent lot.Buddhist Jains replacemet Its only 1000yrs ago when first muslim landed in Malabar hill areas"

Today's Marwadi traders and Baniyas are Bihari Kshatriyas converted to Jainism.

Bengal started becoming Muslim 400 years back. look for wiki on Bengal history. Because of oppression and atrocities on Bengalis while this conversion was happening in 16th century Bengalis moved to Vijayanagar, Konkan in Karnataka and Maharashtra.

Pappu, agreed. That's the problem. We are too much Buddhists! You are talking to a total, complete vegetarian, my friend! And I would never, in my life, eat any meat. LOL

Personally, I detest the word 'Hinduism' yet we are stuck using it because everyone else does so. :(

A close friend of mine is a Nepalese 'Hindu' (officially) who can't understand what the fuss is between Hindusim and Buddhism. He and his family visit temples of both traditions regularly.

------------

Let me add a word of caution though. NOW, TODAY, the concept of "separate religions" has become important. So it is NOT wise or right to come in the way of anyone who wishes to assert a separate identity. The Buddha, like many other sages, DID bring many new and unique contributions, and those who wish to assert a separate 'religion' based on those, have an absolute right that we must always respect. Not doing so can create a lot of difficulty these days. Hindu-Sikh relations suffered terribly and unncessarily because Sikhs felt (rightly) that Hindus did not respect their separate and unique contributions. We can be 'separate' yet belong to the same big family.

Shah2,

"Bengal has not had any Martial history
Non MARTIAL"

British Lie!


According to Mahavamsa, Vijaya Singha, a Vanga prince, conquered Lanka (modern day Sri Lanka) in 544 BC and gave the name "Sinhala" to the country. Bengali people also colonized Laat (Gujarat), Madras and the Indonesian archipelago. The Chera, Tamil, Andhra and Karnataka people are also said to be connected with the Bengalis.

A few Naga worshipping peoples -- Marana, Chera, Pangalathirayar -- migrated from Bengal to South India and established their own kingdoms there. Lac Long Quan, a Naga warrior migrated from bôn-lang(Bengal) to Anam (Vietnam) conquered the land (7th century BCE) and renamed it according to the name of his motherland (bon-lang). The kings of Lac Long's line were known as bôns (Bongs) and they ruled Anam up to the 3rd century BCE.

Gangaridai Empire

In 326 BCE, with the invasion of Alexander the Great the region again came to prominence. The Greek and Latin historians suggested that Alexander the Great withdrew from India anticipating the valiant counter attack of the mighty Gangaridai and Prasioi empires that were located in the Bengal region. Alexander, after the meeting with his officer, Coenus, was convinced that it was better to return. Diodorus Siculus mentions Gangaridai to be the largest and the most powerful empire in India whose king possessed an army of 20,000 horses, 200,000 infantry, 2,000 chariots and 4,000 elephants trained and equipped for war. The allied forces of Gangaridai and Prasii (Nanda Empire) were preparing a massive counter attack against the forces of Alexander on the banks of Ganges. Gangaridai according to the Greek accounts kept on flourishing at least up to the 1st century AD.

Eklavya,

"Buddhism is showing reappearance"

More as a political party. There will not be any wall between so called Hinduism and Budhism. We all use our Buddhi/Intellect and decide on rational thought so we are all Buddhist. Just kidding!

Eklavya,

"And it would have 'lost' to Islam even if Shankaracharya did not exist. In India (tragically, if you are so inclined), Buddhism got beat on both ends - by two very different ideologies, simultaneously, almost."

Wrong! Todays so called Hinduism, as practiced is Buddhism and Jainism. Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are attempts to weed out corruption from Sanatan Dharma.

tahmed32 ,

"And who decides what is for the "health of society"? and who decides how this "harm" to an individual or community will improve this health?"

Who decides? Who decides today? People who have higher understanding, who have leadership skills, who communicate better, who have wealth creation ideas, who have influence/power over the community. This is how every society whether tribal or modern. For some time Kautilya ArthaShastra was the guide to decide. People on whom this power of decison was bestowed upon were trained Vedic scholars, scholars in Jaina scriptures (much more volumnous and detailed) and Buddhist scriptures and the kings who were considered to be living the scriptures.

"Your argument has been used by murderers for centuries (including the gujrat killers, including Hitler) to justify "harm" to the weak - which includes religious minorities - in society!!"

Which argument? Argument that there was nothing like religion? Harming people because of their faith is not Indian way?

Gujarath killing is more revenge for Godhra. Politicians/Britishers divided the society using religion. Pampered certain group against others using these alien concepts of minority and majority. Look at Shah2's statement saying Bengal did not have Martial history. Britisher's propagated such myths.

May I ask you can you tell me how many people were murdered because of this concept called religion? In which country there are sectarian and religious wars are being faught? What is Taliban? Did Pakistanis protested when Buddha's statues were destroyed eight years back? I am assuming you are Pakistani.

Anyway we are going all over. Dont know why you had to bring Gujarath. My point was simple that if physical harm was done to people in India it was not done in the name of faith.

Zee :)

--------------

Shah ji and pappu bhai

It may be as misguided to hold Islam alone responsible for the disappearance of Buddhism from India as it is to assign that responsibility to Indian traditions alone.

Buddhism would have lost its dominance in India even if Islam never showed up. And it would have 'lost' to Islam even if Shankaracharya did not exist. In India (tragically, if you are so inclined), Buddhism got beat on both ends - by two very different ideologies, simultaneously, almost.

The thing is, Buddhism is a great great religion, but it is not COMPETITIVE and it does not provide a comprehensive answer to societal needs. It is a great great religion if it can accept two basic realities - (1) Individually many many people NEED something like God - or what Publius called irrationality, and (2) Societally, groups NEED the ability to excercise violence.

Yet, as always happened in India, other Indian traditions have greatly benefitted and learnt from Buddhism, and Buddhism is showing reappearance. That is something to be rejoiced in, IMHO.

Further more if conversion of Budhhist /jain Khatriyas to violent Khatrias form occured voluntarily

why bame muslim for harming, extinction of jain/ buddhist ?

"Many of the rulers or Khatriyas of Bihar and Bengal professed Buddhist and Jaina thought process. Bihari Kshatriya more inclined towards Jaina. Mahavir came from Bihar"

Bengal has not had any Martial history
Non MARTIAL

BOTH muslims and hindu won /lost based on how they wanted to be treated Those who were disatisfied by hindu casteiSm CHOSE ISLAM
tHAT DOES NOT MAKE ALL BENGAL MUSLIM former dalit

nor all who continued as Hindu higher cate or brahmin all though caste brahminism in Bengal is more influential than brahmins of Up country Up Bihar Punjab

Why did so called khthriyas inclined to Jainism budhist'
are NOW not so but
on
contrary abusive violent casteist Naxal infested ranver sena .

Certainly muslim did not convet buddhist more manageable and governable into violent lot.Buddhist Jains replacemet Its only 1000yrs ago when first muslim landed in Malabar hill areas

#705 "Harm if needed for the health of the society is one's duty."

And who decides what is for the "health of society"? and who decides how this "harm" to an individual or community will improve this health?

Your argument has been used by murderers for centuries (including the gujrat killers, including Hitler) to justify "harm" to the weak - which includes religious minorities - in society!!

Shah2,

"What is the rough % proportion of Buddhist as oposed to HIndu in India prior to 1000yrs or even before mohomed in 7th cemtury."

One should ask about the different principalties and the faiths of the rulers. There was no religion concept in India, so there was no conversion from Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) to Buddhism or Jainism. Many of the rulers or Khatriyas of Bihar and Bengal professed Buddhist and Jaina thought process. Bihari Kshatriya more inclined towards Jaina. Mahavir came from Bihar. Likewise North-West, ie, Afghanistan, Baluchisthan and some part of Sindh were following more Buddha. For common Indian did not perceive walls among different ways of spirituality and belief. He followed Indian culture rather than any religion. Present day problems are because of destruction of original culture by Muslims. This loss of culture is real violence.

"violence is fact for every group Christian jews Hindu Muslims agreed theek "

Physical harm or even murder for the betterment of the society is not harm. I would not use word violence without defining what is being violated. Colloquially it is translated into no physical harm. But that is not right. Harm if needed for the health of the society is one's duty.

Real violence happens when physical, economic and social harm is done to people to convert from one faith to otehr. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism never did this violence for conversion.

Shah2,

"What is the rough % proportion of Buddhist as oposed to HIndu in India prior to 1000yrs or even before mohomed in 7th cemtury."

One should ask about the different principalties and the faiths of the rulers. There was no religion concept in India, so there was no conversion from Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) to Buddhism or Jainism. Many of the rulers or Khatriyas of Bihar and Bengal professed Buddhist and Jaina thought process. Bihari Kshatriya more inclined towards Jaina. Mahavir came from Bihar. Likewise North-West, ie, Afghanistan, Baluchisthan and some part of Sindh were following more Buddha. For common Indian did not perceive walls among different ways of spirituality and belief. He followed Indian culture rather than any religion. Present day problems are because of destruction of original culture by Muslims. This loss of culture is real violence.

"violence is fact for every group Christian jews Hindu Muslims agreed theek "

Physical harm or even murder for the betterment of the society is not harm. I would not use word violence without defining what is being violated. Colloquially it is translated into no physical harm. But that is not right. Harm if needed for the health of the society is one's duty.

#702

What is the rough % proportion of Buddhist as oposed to HIndu in India prior to 1000yrs or even before mohomed in 7th cemtury .

violence is fact for every group Christian jews Hindu Muslims agreed theek

.Who & when used it in absolutely better way .Confused ?

#701 Posted by Eklavya,

In the real world, there are no rewards to being 'gentle' and 'loving' unless you can also be violent and cruel when necessary. Again, real and successful societies differ only in how they use violence, not in if they use violence.

Following is what the great 'Osho' had to say about the even greater 'gentle' and 'loving' symbol of all time:

It is that fateful day on Calvary Hill. Jesus is hanging on his wooden cross, twenty feet off the ground, utterly exhausted. To his left side, hanging on another cross, is thief Barnaby, cousin-brother of the famous murderer and rapist, Barabbas. On the right side of Jesus, hanging in the air, is Fritz the Hun, great-grandfather of the infamous Attila. The sun is beating down, there are no clouds or God in sight, and Jesus becomes more and more delirious. Suddenly, Jesus twitches on the cross, and mumbles towards Barnaby, "My son, my son, come closer." Barnaby looks up at Jesus and wiggles around a bit, but finds himself stuck. Jesus lifts his head weakly and looks at Fritz. "My son, my son," he gasps, "come closer!" Fritz is completely spaced out, and does not move. "My sons! My sons!" cries Jesus in frustration. "Come closer, come closer!" But all is still on Calvary Hill. "Okay, then," sighs Jesus. "It is your own fault if you don't want to be in the photograph!"

Eklavya,

"The ONLY reason Buddhism survived as the dominant presence in some other countries was because these countries were somewhat isolated and thus protected from external forces and lacked internal countervailing forces."

Simpler and concise way to put: Buddhism survived where it was not attacked by Muslims.

Ahimsa in Hinduism is Non-Violence. Ahimsa does not mean not hurting or killing. Bhagwan Krishna urged to kill even great human beings such as Bhishma, Drona and Karna, when they stood on the wrong side of the natural law. Buddhism and Jainsism is unbalanced spirituality not supported by Natural Law.

Re: Murad #699

Murad bhai, you really got the whole history of India wrong. Perhaps reading too much of the 'history' manufactured by leftists/Nehruvites :(

Bhaijan, NO large society can afford to be 'gentle' 'peace-loving' and such. Nor was the Indian society 'getle' and 'peaceloving.'

The question, and the key differentiator between viable societies, is HOW violence is used, by whom, under what conditions, against whom, according to which rules etc.

What happened with Buddhism (and to some extent with Jainism) was that some of our own important traditions became extremely powerful (for good reasons, then). This had the (probably unintended and unforeseen) consequence of people forgetting the importance of violence.

The situation was simply corrected in two radically different ways. (1) Partly, many of our other traditions - mostly led by the Adi Shankaracharya - reasserted themselves. This had been happening in India for as long as we can see. (2) Partly, Islam played its own role, particularly in the North West, where Buddhism was particularly strong, and the perhaps the role of violence was forgotten by Indians.

The ONLY reason Buddhism survived as the dominant presence in some other countries was because these countries were somewhat isolated and thus protected from external forces and lacked internal countervailing forces.

In the real world, there are no rewards to being 'gentle' and 'loving' unless you can also be violent and cruel when necessary. Again, real and successful societies differ only in how they use violence, not in if they use violence.

muradbaig #699: "how and when did such fanatic and destructive violence come into the generally gentle Indian traditions that evolved to become Hinduism?"

Where did you learn about this "gentle Indian tradition" that supposedly existed at one time? For that to happen, there must have been "gentle humans" at one time that evolved into violent ones. Such remarkable evolutionary changes goes against all scientific evidence, and lives in the minds of dreamers only.

Gosh! 0ver 11,000 views and 600 interacts.

But the subject seems to have drifted into interesting inputs regarding Jezia, rights and abuses of dhimmis and other areas. These however all underline how `religion' was used to subjugate the conquered and as a weapon for state politics.

I would like to try and bring the discussions back to the main theme of the article as in my interact No 389.

In this article I have made the point that all the three Semitic religions, whose followers, driven by guilt and fear fanned by powerful full time priests could become fanatic and destructive. This point has been elaborated in my earlier Chowk article `The Vicious Circle of Violence' (March 22, 2008)that you (laddu) have already seen.

My question is... how and when did such fanatic and destructive violence come into the generally gentle Indian traditions that evolved to become Hinduism?

In this article I have suggested that the tipping point was after the 7th century AD when the Brahmin priests increasingly took control of the joyeous local worship of numerous deities to define new forms of worship to deities like Shiv and Vishnu who could read a worshipper's innermost thoughts and see every sinful or polluting action to generate the fears that the Brahmins alone could cure with prayers, offerings, sacrifices and penances. In recent times this Brahminical fervour was further concentrated into the philosophy of Hindutva.

I do not claim to have all the answers so I ask all of you to suggest how the generally gentle and compassionate Hindu tradition became militant.

Please try to enlighten me on this point.

Murad

#458 Shah ji

"Iranians still dont like Indian Hindus over Arab muslims .they are ready to Invade Israel only for Arab Palestinians ."

HIndus never invaded and enslaved Iran. It was arabs who destroyed the iranian cultire and the centers like Persepolis. Both Iran and India and victims of Arab imperialism

REgarding invading Israel .... it is only a posturing by the iranian religioues heads to be one up on the sunni arabs.

Re: # 682 Laddu:

Your observations ie; Post is correct.
In Spain from 9th 15th century AD when there was agreat interaction between Jews, Muslims and also Christains, Jews were for instance forbidden to ride horses but only donkeys. Horse riding priveledge belonged to Muslims only. The signal was very clear thenm and also now. Non-Muslims must know where they stand despite all these 'tolerance' of Islam business.

Kamath

Child Slavery and Jizya

Families who could not pay the crushing jizya or poll-tax were obliged to hand over their children and to "deduct" the value of the children as slaves from the jizya.

For more than 300 years, Christians suffered the humiliation not often discussed: a process known as "devshirme," introduced by Ottoman Sultan Orkhan (1326-1359). It consisted of a periodic taking of a fifth of all Christian children in conquered territories. Converted to Islam, many of these children usually between the ages of fourteen and twenty, were trained to be janissaries or infantrymen. These periodic abductions eventually became an annual occurrence. Children were taken from among the Greek aristocracy and from Serbs, Bulgarians, Armenians, and Albanians, and often from among the children of priests.

Another way of supplying the caliphs with slaves, required on a fixed date in the year, all the fathers (unbelievers) were ordered to appear with their children in the public square of of the village. The recruiting agents chose the most sturdy and handsome children in the presence of a Muslim judge. Any father who shirked his duty to provide children was severely punished.

This system was open to all kinds of abuse. The recruiting agents often took more that the prescribed number of children and sold the "surplus" children back to their parents. Those parents unable to buy back their own children had to accept the children being sold as slaves. This system was abolished in 1656, however a parallel system in which young children between the ages of six and ten were taken to be trained in the seraglio of the sultan, continued into the 19th century. The number of children taken each year has been estimated as great as 8,000 but most probably an average of 1,000 children.

Re: # 677 + the other half a million!

pappu yaar, tang na kar!

#692#693 Posted by tahmed32,

I hope you noticed this sentence too:

... that some rulers, notably Ala-ud-din, did not levy jizya because they refused to accord the Hindus the status of zimmis, or protected peoples.

The hindus who were taken as 'protected people' and not as enemies by other rulers were actually lucky. It was just a tax levied quite equitably in accordance with income groups, just as Zakat for Muslims.

But Laddu Mian will go on of-course ... :)

i meant jaziya, not zakat in #692.

zeemax: trouble with our hindu friends on chowk is they have a limited imagination. while ranting day in day out on zakat, have they considered the prevalent practices of the time? simply put, the conquered people were lucky to be alive to pay zakat, not to mention having the ability to generate income from which to pay!!

Salim,

I used to retaliate with language that would impregnate my detractors' seven generations - but somehow I don't like to resort to that.

If I may add "...my detractors' seven generations and nine time zones ... !!!" What happened?

Shah2, yeh sangyta kon hai?

#551 Posted by laddu

Dhimmis were in constant danger of being enslaved ... forced the Jews and Christians to hand over their women and children as slaves to the Arab army, and they were told to deduct this "handover" from the poll-tax, the dreaded "jizya."

Laddu Mian, you failed to produce the last known Jizya decree by Aurangzeb from your library of historical texts!

Anyway, would you like to comment on whether the following literature being taught at Columbia University is false and misleading?

" The taxes which had a special religious significance in an Islamic state—zakat and jizya—have been the subject of much controversy, both as regards their nature and their actual imposition during Muslim rule in India. Zakat was imposed only on Muslims; it is not, strictly speaking, a tax in the normal sense, since its payment was an act of piety. Contemporary historians do not record that zakat was levied by the sultans of Delhi, and their silence has been taken to mean that the procedure, common to all Islamic states, was followed. There were, at any rate, arrangements for the receipt of zakat, paid voluntarily by Muslims as a religious duty, and Fiqh-i-Firuz Shahi mentions a separate treasury for zakat. Toward the end of the sultanate, Sikandar Lodi abolished the zakat on grain and it was not renewed by any subsequent sultan.

The question of jizya is even more complex, not only because of the lack of clarity in the contemporary records but also because of the strong emotional reaction that has been aroused in discussion concerning it. Under Islamic law, jizya was a tax levied on non-Muslims. This action can be interpreted as an equitable arrangement, since only Muslims had to pay zakat; and, in addition, they alone were liable to military service. From this point of view it was, in the words of a modern historian, a poll tax levied on non-Muslims "in return for which they received protection of life and property, and exemption for military service."

In the Quran jizya is used in the same sense as kharaj, meaning simply a tax, and the fact that early Muslim writers in India preserve this usage without attaching any technical significance to the term suggests that it was not levied during the first conquests. However it was later levied as a poll tax. As such it was borrowed from Persia, where it was called gezit. The failure of the historians to indicate when jizya was paid cannot be taken as an indication, as has been sometimes suggested, that some rulers, notably Ala-ud-din, did not levy jizya because they refused to accord the Hindus the status of zimmis, or protected peoples.

The reason jizya is not more definitely mentioned in the records is probably that for the sake of convenience in rural areas, where the population was overwhelmingly Hindu, jizya and kharaj, the land tax, were realized as a consolidated tax. In the early days of the sultanate the rulers had not built up an elaborate organization, and tax farming—through Hindu middlemen—was the normal means of recovery. It appears unlikely that apart from a comprehensive demand made on a village or a territory, separate or specific realization of jizya was feasible.

Where jizya was recovered it was charged in three categories. The wealthy paid four dinars per head per annum, the middle groups two dinars, and the poor, one dinar. Women, children, and those on a bare subsistence level were excused. "

http://www.columbiauniversity.org/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islam links/ikram/part1_07.html

Ab jawab do, shabaash!

ajeya: thank you for your profound thoughts.

RE: tahmed32

I cannot find the interact here, but in an earlier interact Tahmed was explaining (as he often does) how Islam was a revolutionary idea of a casteless society yada yada yada...

This is a theme much loved by Islamic apologists all over the world. With the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence weighed against Islam - whether it is muhammad's character, or actual deeds, or whether it is the actual writings of the hadiths and the koran, or whether it is the history of blood and gore and violence right from the time muhammad came into power until the present day, Islamic apologists are always struggling with an impossible task. But with the whole casteless thingy, Islamists feel that they have a winning argument, if not against Christianity or Buddhism etc., then at least against Hinduism.

Alas, here too the Islamists have their work cut out for them. When muhammad was tricking the illiterate bedouins with his "revelations" of recycled Abrahamic mumbo-jumbo, the population of Saudi Arabia was minisclule compared to the size of its huge barren desertlands, and the population was homogeneous. The only differences were of tribes, and religions, with the notable exception of slaves, who were the lowest of the low on the social ladder.

And boy, did mo exploit these differences! There were two kinds of people - us and them. And they were to be treated far worse than the corrupted caste system ever treated the "untouchables". And as for slaves - they were to be raped at will, or sold like cattle - men, women, children - it didn't matter who. And he not only set it down in his manual, he also led by example.

That makes it even more sickening to hear the Islamists tout Islam as a religion of equality.

Your bullshit will not be bought by any intelligent people, tahmed, IF the facts were discussed out in the open, and theworld population was not threated with murder and mayhem by the goons of the "reliogion of peace".

Luckily, the internet has arrived, and this anonymity will allow for the facts to be discussed, and will hopefully eventually lead to the death of the cult of Islam.

Maybe Ahmedism is the option that will enable "Muslims" to escape the curse of muhammad, and start following a more benign "prophet". While it is as much of bullshit as Islam, at least the example of this new "prophet" will be of a less inhuman person.

Salim (real) bhai I am sorry I am confused with decoy nicks with real nicks i thaught this was some inposter

#685 Posted by Shah2 on June 24, 2008 12:56:16 pm

{"Behen Chod Salim_Chauhan ,tere sangyta pehle se chud chuki hai bharwa "}

Shah Sahib - do number waaley!
I am perplexed about your reaction - and your vocabulary. Please advise what I may have done to merit your scorn? I used to retaliate with language that would impregnate my detractors' seven generations - but somehow I don't like to resort to that. So, please behave and we will all be happy - especially you, my friend.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#682 Posted by laddu on June 24, 2008 9:53:28 am
{"No attempt shall be made by a non-Muslim to resemble a Muslim in any way"}

Now, this Ommayyad Caliph, Umar II, was a visionary and a man much before his time - almost as foresighted as Hazrat Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Marhoom. :)

laddu the Great Hindu Warrior: He explained and apologized,in #677. That went over your head, I guess.

Here is the PAct of Umar on Dhimmis-

The Pact of Umar is attributed to the eight century caliph Umar Abd al-Aziz (717-720) as a guide to treating dhimmis in conquered territory. Here are the regulations regarding those who do not convert to Islam:



Gates of dhimmis property shall be left open for passersby and travelers. Three days food and lodging will be provided free to any Muslims travelers who request it.


Shelter in churches or Christian homes will not be provided for spies, nor shall spies be hidden from Muslims.


The Koran will not be taught to children. (It would not be taught correctly).


No religious (non-Muslim) ceremonies will be held in public.


A seat or chair must be yielded to a Muslim, dhimmis must stand in the presence of a Muslim.


No attempt shall be made by a non-Muslim to resemble a Muslim in any way.


Riding animals with a saddle is forbidden.


Bearing swords or weapons of any kind is forbidden.


Selling wine is forbidden.


The forelocks of hair on the head shall be clipped for easy identification of non-Muslims.


Crosses or religious books must not be visible anywhere in Muslim areas or marketplaces.


Bells of clappers used in religious ceremonies will be sounded very quietly.


Voices will not be raised when reciting religious services, and when in the presence of Muslims, or in funeral services.


Non-Muslims will not build homes higher that Muslims' homes.


Anyone who deliberately strikes a Muslim will forfeit the protection of this pact.


Even in religious affairs, Muslims could block appointments of priests or bishops. The argument that dhimmis enjoyed a secure and stable status with Muslims with pacts such is this, that they were forever protected and lived happily ever after, as perpetrated by Islamic apologists, depends on which side of the pact one is on.

These pacts were fragile, could be changed at anytime, to suit the Muslims, and proved to be under constant threat of change throughout time.

pappu is a nick created today to spam this discussion on dhimmitude- shame on you Islamists- be brave and face the truths about ISlam!!

pappu,

it is clear that a chowki Islamist created this nick in order to deliberately spam this article and stop any further discussion on dhimmitude!!!

dddhikkar hai tumhari mardanagi par!!

chow staff,

please ban this spammer called pappu!!

as the writings on the trucks say: "pappu yaar tang na kar" :-)

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its primitive beliefs and savage practices. So, it is of no surprise that Islam incorporated slavery and much of the ethos of the culture of its birthplace.

Is discussing slavery beating a dead horse? Regrettably, it is not. The Anti-Slavery Society has documented numerous contemporary instances, most of them from Islamic countries. The repugnant practice of slavery presents a real threat to human dignity as Islamic fundamentalism is surging. The Islamic law—the Shariah—is based on the provisions of the Quran.


And the Quran explicitly and implicitly condones slavery in dozens of suras (chapters). Muhammad himself took numerous slaves, mostly women, as spoils of war. Some of the women Muhammad took for himself he called concubines, hardly a consolation to the helpless enslaved women.

Documents show that in the heyday of slavery, Muslims took just as many slaves from East Africa as did the Christians from West Africa.

Slavery is a matter of degrees. On one extreme is the absolute right of the owner to do whatever he wishes to the slave. This form of slavery is no longer prevalent. Yet disenfranchising people from any provisions of the Charter of Human Rights constitutes a form of enslavement.

Slavery seamlessly became a part of Islam, since it was widely practiced by the Arabs. Slavery is repeatedly approved in the Quran. The Old Testament also sanctioned slavery. Yet, Jewish and Christian societies have long banned slavery while the Muslims consider every verse and word of the Quran as those of Allah that can never be revised, discarded or violated. Therefore, with the resurgence of Islam, more and more Islamic laws and ethos, including slavery of various types and degrees, are implemented. One clear validation of the practice of slavery is the sura below:

[Q 16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah!

Slavery, discrimination, exclusivity and many more unjust provisions are systemic to Islam without any possibility for reformation. Muslims revere the Quran as the eternal immutable words of Allah. They accept the Hadith, Muhammad’s sayings, as further elucidation of their faith and emulate the Sunna the way Muhammad, the perfect practitioner of Allah’s teachings, conducted his life.

Muslims believe that Allah himself is the author of the Quran, that he wrote each chapter himself and had the angel Gabriel deliver it to Muhammad, who was illiterate. Muhammad must have been endowed with perfect memory in order to transmit each verse of the Quran exactly as written by Allah. What Muhammad revealed bit-by-bit over twenty years, not a voluminous work by any measure, was recorded by various people on all manner of bones, parchments, and bark. At least four major versions of the Quran eventually emerged. So, Allah’s words were revealed by a perfect unerring messenger and were recorded by a number of imperfect humans in different versions. It remained for other imperfect humans, the Caliphs, to choose the one version they believed to be the literal perfect words of Allah and ordered the rest destroyed.

Based on the Quran itself, a number of Islamic precepts and practices clearly violate the provisions of human rights, institutionalize discrimination, and constrain liberty. A partial list of these violations is supplied below.

* Freedom of assembly, expression, and worship is either denied or severely restricted in every Islamic country.

* Women are relegated to a second class status, depriving them of many rights enjoyed by men.

* Religious minorities are often harassed, their properties are confiscated, their holy places destroyed, their cemeteries leveled, and even their persons harmed without receiving justice.

* “People of the book,� Jews and Christians, are treated as “tolerable,� since they together with Muslims are considered to be followers of the only three divine religions, while members of other religions, or no religion at all, are deemed ineligible for fair treatment under the law. Egypt, for instance, requires its citizens to obtain identity cards to be eligible for all the rights of citizenship, such as education, employment and medical care. Yet, gallingly, the same government denies these rights to those who are not members of the three divine religions or those who have no religious affiliation at all.

* The Islamic Republic of Iran officially bars its largest non-Muslim minority, the Baha’is, from many rights of citizenship, including access to higher education solely for the “sin� of practicing a different faith.

* Censorship of all sort are systemic to Islam. It is its way of mind control: an atrocious practice of keeping the mind in bondage. The press is required to parrot the approved line, and the violators are shut down and their staff imprisoned; Internet access to undesirable sites is routinely blocked; and, book publications pre-screened, and much much more.

* Women, by the very nature of their second class status expressly stipulated in the Quran, are occasionally allowed a token high position in government, while non-Muslim minority citizens are virtually barred from securing any positions at all.

To better understand Islam, a brief reference to its birth may be helpful. The founder of Islam, Muhammad, worked for and married a wealthy woman many years his senior named Khadija. One day, alone in a secluded place, Muhammad had a revelation and reported the experience to Khadija. Khadija assured him that he had been chosen by Allah as his messenger. From that point on, Muhammad proceeded to reveal the Quran and the carved-in-granite Islam and its dogma was born.

Presently, with each passing day Islam is making inroads in both the traditionally Muslim lands as well as much of the non-Muslim world where Islam is beginning to run deep roots and vie with the laws and cultures of its hosts. Muslims are taking advantage of the freedom that democracies grant. They use the same provisions of the law that are intended to protect and enhance liberty to subvert democracy and freedom.

Islam is indeed a dangerous comprehensive form of slavery. Its very name, Islam, means submission or surrender. True to its name, Islam strives for nothing short of enslavement of the body of humanity as well as the bondage of its mind.

Complacency and appeasement on the part of free people can only serve Islam. There is no chance for co-existence with Islam. All one needs to know is to see what is happening in Islamic countries. That is exactly what is in store for the presently free people of the world if Islam is not held in check.

There is a hope that Muslims themselves may leave this Bedouin slaveholder religion. Yet, the hope is slim. Islam has a stranglehold on its slaves and will neither let them go, nor do the Muslims seem to have the insight or the will to leave it in large numbers. But hope, as slim as it is, keeps me sounding the alarm before the fire of Islam engulfs us all.

Warning to free people: Don't bank on the politicians, the master practitioners of the art of the politically correct, to protect liberty. Politicians must be urged by the citizens to safeguard liberty, scrutinized closely that they do the work, and are held accountable if they fail to do so. You, a citizen, also have a job to do. Take a few minutes a day and do what you can to protect freedom. “Freedom is not free,� may be a cliché. Yet, it is the most profound four-word sentence in the lexicon of the free.

http://www.iranian.com/main/member/amil-imani

Sorry for the 100 posts. Something is wrong with chowk server. I clicked Submit button only once

======================

Slavery, making one human the property of another, was widely practiced in the past by many societies. Regrettably, even in the 21st Century, the horrid practice continues in certain areas, most notably among Muslims. Islam’s genesis was the Arabian peninsula of the seventh century AD, known for its p