Freud and Jung and Their Secret Affairs

To access truth there are many paths. People choose certain path for different external and internal reasons. Quran itself says, this is your path and this is mine (109.6). Arguments based on the perceived percepts of Quran takes us nowhere. One can argue ad infinitum one way or other. It is not the weakness of Quran. It all depends on what one’s heart is seeking for. It’s just like life itself; an interaction with a living thing - a chemistry between two partners. I happen to find that chemistry with spiritual aspect of Quran and my interaction with it is not tainted by (trifles). ... and I bother not myself with exploring every other spring for satiety of my thirst. If there are other springs and people are drinking from them, I am happy for them. If they are drinking coke or seven-up only, I am happy for them too. I find my nourishment and solace in my spring and I worry not too much to ‘nikal baal ki khaal’.
(above is part of another of my interacts - adding here I don't know why - addressed not to anyone particular)

Re: # 134
I don't need to look for a kachra woman - I see a kachra man or two right here ... and I do get my share sir ...
I can only pray that God shows all a balanced course "siratal mustaqueem"
Your interactions (I read only directed to me) has revealed to me a lot about man's capacity or incapacity to understand. Thanks a lot for taking time to respond. I would have missed this education if I had not crossed your path.
Last question I have for you if you would be kind enough to illuminate: What is your opinion about terrorism and al-quadia and all that? I look forward to the this final revelation.

Re: # 133 Quin
Fine, look for the kachra-woman, offer your other cheek, and whirl scantily-clad, begging or handing out laaahhhhve!

:)

Re: # 125
Yes, ALL IS LOVE ... only if we see the spirit and are not mired in words ... ALL IS LOVE ...NOTHING BUT LOVE ... NOTHING BUT LOVE ...
now don't ask me anyone, what is LOVE?
Go deep in your heart and listen how its beats;
Stop this volcano of thoughts and listen how you breath;
May be then LOVE will reveal its secrets to you.
(PS: and once you know the secret, you will know why IT needs no defending)

Re: # 130 Papps

"Do you mean, one particular community and language is chosen by the god?"

Take the 400-year oppression of the Bani- Israel (children of Israel) at one of the greatest Pharoah's hands.

They suffered humiliation after humiliation because they strayed from the path shown by those who brought to them God's Commands (no! not Charlton Heston please!).

They had to be led because that would first mean their own reformation, and the eventual end of the economically-religiously exploitive godless system in which MAN was god!

The theme of the Qur'an remains dominantly pro-life, pro-unitarian, and anti-evil. It spells out how the force--that is in the bloodstream--plays with our desires and ignorance.

Understand THIS mechanism and you've got it right!

Regards.

PS: this ought to be enough for a Sunday!

Re: # 130 Papps

"in order to make US understand, the Word always came in the chosen community's own language."

When I said THAT, I meant 'chosen' to reform and then lead others to 'belief'. It is disbelief (a kind of ignorance and clouding of one's inner self) that sets one on fire instead of lighting one up! There's a difference in the two states.

'Chosen' as totally misunderstood by the Jews, and also by some Muslims, does NOT mean 'chosen' forever under all circumstances and in all modes of behaviour! If THIS were so, God would indeed be a partisan god as in Greek mythology! Please understand that the followers of His way come, go, or stay depending upon how strong evil becomes. In the end, He will prevail; He cannot lose although it might seem that way these days!

I'm glad you do realise that we are not a joint-venture between God and some other corporation!

Self-denial (forbidding what God has allowed in His Wisdom), suppression of the good SELF, or encouraging evil are unhealthy activities. Good classwork means no homework in the Hereafter! Think about THIS Pappu dear.

Tahir,

I had to attend to other things in between. Continueing from previous post:

I mean when we start judging with the attitude of assigning individuality to each prophet/sage/swami/guru then we fall into the "devilish trap" as you say. The whole purpose of this journey is to come to an understanding of oneness.

"Again the Qur'an and older scriptures describe why there is one God, why we must obey His Commands, and not fall into devilish traps that ruin life-after-death."

Yes! there is one god, the whole universe is a living being called God. If the individuality is ignorance then individual's life and death is just an illusion.

"He is multi-ligual only because from one pair and one language, we've gone off on different routes, therefore, in order to make US understand, the Word always came in the chosen community's own language."

If the God is all pervading as mentioned above. It is manifesting itself in many forms. Why rely on words only? A motherly glance has the same potential to go further on the path of understanding. I would even say even the thoughlessness, wordlessness and activity-lessnes can do the same.

What is chosen langyage and chosen community? Do you mean, one particular community and language is chosen by the god?
Seems does not fit harmoniously with above understanding.

Thanks for your answers

Re: # 128 Pappu

"Instead of trying to "reach" god, we need to come to an understanding that "each" is god. What do you think?"

This is what I think: the Lord of all that we can see and what is beyond our perception, DOES NOT approve of this idea of each being a god! Who told you to believe in this?

We CANNOT ever come to a mutually agreed upon poistion using our own desires. Hate it of you wish, but we must operate according to the Manufacturer's Instruction Manual or else face having a blown fuse, malfunctioning parts and a void warranty.

"prophet/sage/sadhu/swami/guru is one whose understanding has ripened to "each' is god."

None of the Prophets of God's religion (monotheism) proposed THIS!

"You are right when you say that our inner voice tells us who is ahead of us and how we can take help from them. When we judge these people who might be ahead of us in understanding, we insteading of moving ahead start moving back."

For the unbeliever, BACK is FRONT!

Here's something very relevant Pappu:

2:74
And yet, after all this, your hearts hardened and became like rocks, or even harder: for, behold, there are rocks from which streams gush forth; and, behold, there are some from which, when they are cleft, water issues; and, behold, there are some that fall down for awe of God. And God is not unmindful of what you do!

Cf.59 For an explanation of this allusion, see 7:143. The simile of "the rocks from which streams gush forth" or "from which water issues" serves to illustrate its opposite, namely, dryness and lack of life, and is thus an allusion to the spiritual barrenness with which the Qur'an charges the children of Israel.

Regards.

Tahir,

"Reach God HOW, physically, spiritually? I think you're fixating on getting to touch God! No chance. Many sages and self-proclaimed apparently pious men have tried but without the Supreme Authority's clear sanction or Guidance. The stories of the Prophets tells us WHO they actually were, WHAT did they say and do, and WHY must we follow their way.
"

Instead of trying to "reach" god, we need to come to an understanding that "each" is god. What do you think?

Accordingly, then prophet/sage/sadhu/swami/guru is one whose understanding has ripened to "each' is god. On the path of this understanding we are at different milestones. You are right when you say that our inner voice tells us who is ahead of us and how we can take help from them. When we judge these people who might be ahead of us in understanding, we insteading of moving ahead start moving back.

Re: # 126 Papps
There a million other things I could do on a Sunday morning; it is indeed a miracle that we're interacting instead!

Here we go now:

"Do you think people can reach to the god without reading a book, without going to temples, churches and mosques or listening to some one?

Reach God HOW, physically, spiritually? I think you're fixating on getting to touch God! No chance. Many sages and self-proclaimed apparently pious men have tried but without the Supreme Authority's clear sanction or Guidance. The stories of the Prophets tells us WHO they actually were, WHAT did they say and do, and WHY must we follow their way.

You may spend all your life hearing Naik's video cassettes, or selected portions of the Bible being whipped up in the church, or a devious 'pir' promising you the stairway to heaven--the rock anthem!

BUT, the voice that comes from within is considered the best since that chip is implanted in us by the Creator, the second-best is how you doubt and I help clarify through my inner faith, and the worst is when I keep showing you the way (and while you do feel something to be true) you keep denying and ridiculing faith. Prophets were the first category, most are the second, and many on CHOWK are happy with the third one! What can I say?

"What is god?"
Again the Qur'an and older scriptures describe why there is one God, why we must obey His Commands, and not fall into devilish traps that ruin life-after-death. I guess you must read these since I cannot copy and paste long passages forever here!

Even the Arabic Bible uses the term 'Allah'! He alone is the Creator and others have no share in His Power although they do claim that they do! Since He has created and placed us in this examination hall, He will question us, we cannot question Him since our intellect gets clouded by the senses and petty impermanence of this world. He is unlike His Creation, outside of it, but totally knowledeable about each event through His Divine information technology.

"Is he in human form?"
No, that is a Hollywood myth, dreams of the insane. The few grams of limited mental matter cannot fathom the Infinite. Try as you may, you will only be able to sense His Existence through His Creation.

"Does he speak only one language?"
He is multi-ligual only because from one pair and one language, we've gone off on different routes, therefore, in order to make US understand, the Word always came in the chosen community's own language.

"Is he located only at one place?"
He is beyond the XYZ dimensions, beyond what is actually hidden from our senses. We have limited eyesight and hearing, how can we go beyond the limits unless HE wills it so?

"Why do we have to search miracles/god in particular way, after learning a particular language and reading a particular book?"

Chose the language you understand! Not knowing Arabic like an Arab has not stopped me from comparing and understanding what makes me think deeply about things! Why should you limit yourself?

Regards.

Tahir,

""His description is veiled in allegory in the Qur'an and is like the similitude of a believer's heart in which remembrance and gratitude reside."

Download NASA images of outer space and see the Divine 'aatishbazi' of perpetual Creation! Then look within yourself, your heart, and how it connects to the intellect, how the senses say one thing and that 'something inside' yet another.

Why must we--and the trillions of galaxies spinning around--go on; for what and on whose Command?

A believer's heart recieves this 'light' when he has prepared himself according to the prescribed formula which is not as simple as E=mc2!

It is this 'inner' process Pappu dear that you must allow to take place without the high education always causing you to trip over!"

You have not answered any question. You are replying to all the posts serially. Focus on one post. Define each word. It might be all futile exercize in terms having growth. But it's not what you do but the attitude behiind it, that matters the most.

Again original questions were:
Do you think people can reach to the god without reading a book, without going to temples, churches and mosques or listening to some one?

What is god? Is he in human form? Does he speak only one language? Is he located only at one place?
==========
Miracles are all over. Billions of things can go wrong in a pregnancy but still trillions and trillions of babies are born perfectly healthy. You and I are talking on internet is also a miracle. The intellect we use and its working so that we make it fault tolerant and growing network, is also a miracle. Why do we have to search miracles/god in particular way, after learning a particular language and reading a particular book?

Re: # 118

Ah, the story of the 'kachra-woman!

And Jesus never turned his own cheek to the usurous priests, he let them have it!

All is not love!

Re: # 118 Quin

I think you did not read #93.

There's a time for love, and there's a time for war. Even Iblees has a certain twisted character, intellect and convictions; a man need to be one-up on this THING!

You will only get to know CHOWKies by their words; spend time seeing who they really are. THEN only will you know who is an enenmy or a friend.

Regards.

Re: # 116 Quin

"I intend not to promote any cause, nor defend anything. It was coincidental that I was thrown into this discussion."

A man without a cause, with nothing to defend or deflect is worse than any living thing! Surely, you must have some convictions, or are you too worried about what others will think about you? If the answer to the first question is in negative, then the answer to the second question is obvious.

Events and people lead one into things. If you are being led into something that effects you for good, then allow yourself to be led in!

I too am working on a Book idea: the Qur'an.

Now get down on it! Poetry can wait, for 'only the erring follow the poets'.

Now who said THIS?

Re: # 114 Papps

"His description is veiled in allegory in the Qur'an and is like the similitude of a believer's heart in which remembrance and gratitude reside."

Download NASA images of outer space and see the Divine 'aatishbazi' of perpetual Creation! Then look within yourself, your heart, and how it connects to the intellect, how the senses say one thing and that 'something inside' yet another.

Why must we--and the trillions of galaxies spinning around--go on; for what and on whose Command?

A believer's heart recieves this 'light' when he has prepared himself according to the prescribed formula which is not as simple as E=mc2!

It is this 'inner' process Pappu dear that you must allow to take place without the high education always causing you to trip over!

Regards.

#118 Posted by quin

A woman used to throw house-trash over Prophet’s head every time he passed through her street....

See? This is what I meant. This incident is nowhere in any Hadees or Sunnah and is a myth when ascribed to Muhammad. It is actually from the Bahai'i tradition and said to have occurred with Baha'ullah. It was adapted to Islamic tradition at some point by some sufi type scholars because it's a nice story, and great to mislead people.

There was a discussion about this a while ago and I had proven this from several texts.

Re: # 114 Pappu

I may be able to explain better if you tell me which faith you follow? And what bothers you about belief or God or whatever?

I don't know what more precise answers are you looking for since what you ask HAS ALREADY BEEN answered by God in the Qur'an. Do read it please.

Regards.

Re: # 113 Majumdar sahib,
Monsoon greetings!

"God's Word does not show you the way to physical nearness; only sufis do and this is a fraud!"

THIS is my complete statement which speaks of the fraudulent promises of merging with Allah, receving commands from the Prophet, and other illusions.

The passivity and inaction of sufism has corroded Islam from within, THAT is what I mean here.

Most of this peeri-mureedi business leads one to virtual asceticism and other spiritual pitfalls which the Qur'an warns against. One can only say THIS if one studies a few of their 'masters' to know why these 'poNhchay huway' folks were always chased out from far-off lands into the spiritual fun-land called India!

Islam does not rely on 'pirs', and Muhammad (peace on him) was NOT a sufi; these folks fool the masses by saying that he was!

And last but not least, we need to follow the 'sunnah' and NOT the 'tareeqa' (method) of some dead saint! I know that Mr. Naqshbandi will now wish to grab my throat!

May the purity of God's Way thrive and help us survive sensibly.

Regards.

zeemax: Thanks for your concern. No, I do not tend to waste my time on ad infinitum arguments. I do my work in my small way and worry not about others. However, I consider a well presented criticism a boon as it is a worthy opponent which helps build your endowment. Naïve I am, but not stupid.
I do not read all interactions or profiles at Chowk to see who stands for what - mostly I read interactions directed to me and some iLogs / FPs which may catch my interest. So often I do not know who is who at the Chowk. I do not judge people based on their convictions and beliefs. I judge on their character.
And I recall this example of the character of the Messenger. A woman used to throw house-trash over Prophet’s head every time he passed through her street. One day she did not - and he became concerned that she might be ill and stopped and asked for her well being and prayed for her.
A man like this, and in spite of all his kindness, integrity and honesty, he was persecuted and ridiculed and has to leave his home in the wake of an assassination plot. In the end, it was his character which won him his triumph. And when he conquered Mecca, he forgave all his tormenters. We forget those things and only recall other things out of context and make ourselves hostage to our own mistaken beliefs.
Quran is filled with advices to the Prophet and his followers for gentleness, forgiveness, and accommodation – and speaking gracefully (of which Quran itself is the epitome). Above all, the essence of Quran is love – but this is not understood easily. Who can lift the veil?

quin Mian,

Don't waste your time with murtids. All you're doing is giving them opportunity to poke holes in your argument whenever you slip up, and you take that as encouragement in your naivete.

Keep Faith to yourself, if you have one.

# 105: SR
Thank you for your encouraging and heartwarming comments. Just would like to add that I intend not to promote any cause, nor defend anything. It was coincidental that I was thrown into this discussion. All I hope is that at some point I may be able to contribute to make this common heritage of humanity (or common humanity’s heritage) accessible to a modern reader who may be of a secular or liberal mindset and to make it more understandable for a reader who may want to delve more in its spiritual aspect. I strive to share my sense of appreciation with a reader who is curious about this phenomenal Book. It would be enough for me if I am able to achieve a fraction of this. I am working on a book idea. Thank you again for appreciating.

#104 Quin, Excellent post.... I appreciate the fact that you didn't get personal... And I do like the literary value of it...


#103 Nature Lover, If finding the peace of heart is the purpose of religion, it could be achieved through Marijuana too... Religion is a drug for middle class... Keep them afraid of imaginary God and then keep on controlling them....

Tahir, you seriously need to consult Dr. Sohail... Your brain doesn't seem to have ability to channelize your ideas into words... May be, over-addiction to religion...

Tahir,

"God's Word does not show you the way to physical nearness;"

What do you mean? Let me repeat the question:
Do you think people can reach to the god without reading a book, without going to temples, churches and mosques or listening to some one?

"His description is veiled in allegory in the Qur'an and is like the similitude of a believer's heart in which remembrance and gratitude reside."

What do you mean? Please define similitude, remembrance and gratitude, better yet how is it done in all mundane activities.

Tahir mian,

(only sufis do and this is a fraud!)

Are you suggesting that sufis are frauds? If so what do you make of the Barelvi sect of Islam?

Regards

Re: # 111 Pappu, the genuine inquirer,

Walaikom namastay!

I can see that you do have the urge to find out, which is healthier than just living comfortably with being born a 'Syed'!

"Do you think people can reach to the god without reading a book, without going to temples, churches and mosques or listening to some one?"

God's Word does not show you the way to physical nearness; only sufis do and this is a fraud!

One school of thought says one WILL see God on Judgement Day while the other says one will NOT! The latter makes sense because the Creator does not need to come INTO the physical sphere of His creation i.e mankind!

He is unlike His creation, His needs are only partially known, and He does not depend on His creation for anything, and does not reveal His secrets to the vulgar and the profane. This theme has been dealt with in Surah Ikhlaas (chapter 112) of the Qur'an.

"What is god? Is he in human form? Does he speak only one language? Is he located only at one place?"

His description is veiled in allegory in the Qur'an and is like the similitude of a believer's heart in which remembrance and gratitude reside. Looking for a God-like old bearded man on Mount Olympus is futile. This is all Hollywood stuff. There's no need to start a God-hunt. Countless men have gone crazy doing just that!

I guess you will benefit greatly if you pick up the Qur'an and start reading!

Regards.

Qur'an 24:35
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree an Olive neither of the East nor of the West whose Oil is well-nigh luminous though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light. Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

Tahir,

Do you think people can reach to the god without reading a book, without going to temples, churches and mosques or listening to some one?

What is god? Is he in human form? Does he speak only one language? Is he located only at one place?

Genuine inquiry!

Namaste!

Re: # 103 Natural Lover

Thanks for the desired and appreciated 'input' to Charlie-Girl!

E=MC2 solves all her PMS-menopause related problems!

But beware, there's this squared 'MC' attached to the 'E' which I don't like!

Re: # 102 Charlir-Girl

"Quran is not even an original book."

The Book itself admits that the corruptions of previous revelations stand corrected, that the eternal truths remain the same, that Allah's Way (sunnah Allah) never changes, and a whole lot more. Had you followed IQRA (read with understanding), you wouldn't be wasting time here. It's God's Word against yours. Your words have no meaning or authority!

"It doesn't stand anywhere from a literary point of view... Half of it is copied from bible... Rest of it is useless , pointless effort to be poetic."

These silly views have been expresse by many but still don't change a thing. You are neither a grown man who would weep hearing these verses, nor tremble with gratitude to your Creator.

"Remember "Al qaria tu ma al-qaria, wa ma adraak a ma-alqaria ?" I mean what a useless verse is it... If I don't know what is "Al Qaria", why Muhammad has to repeat it thrice before coming to the point"

There's another similar chapter too, in case you missed the point of repetition! Some pretender (just like MGAQ) did come up with verses that derided the ones you mention. But that ancient fool is forgotten whereas Prophet Muhammad (peace on him) is remembered with global and eternal reverence! Go live with this Charlie-girl.

"And then you claim nobody can come up with even a single verse like that..."

This is Allah's claim, go fight with HIm with all your might.

Enough? Or do you need more baby?

Re: # 100 Asadi sahib,
As-salaam Alaikom.

Thanks for supporting my views which are NOT always my own but rather Allah's descriptions of these luke-warm Muslims. One 'aqeedat-mand' even accused me of being hypnotised by Geeta or being a Hindu deep inside. Of course I was born near the Indu river, and only THIS way I'm an Indu!

Ah! How the luke-warm Muslim weapons inspectors fail to find WMDs in my backpack!

REQUEST: Please 'fand ailma' all the 'F's you use! Your posts will then carry greater roar.

Re: # 99 You-are-a-Charlie-Girl

"How come people are so dumb to believe in a 1400 years old book"

There are people who believe in older material. You're insulting all of them.

"quarter of which was eaten by goats, one third was lost because it was stored on broken pieces of jars/glasses and tree leaves..."

Keep believing in these hadith-based fairy-tales. Do you know how the unbelievers accused the Prophet of 'having written it down with his own hands'? Dig the real meaning of the word 'ummi' and come back Charlie-girl.

"Rest of it was compiled by some caliph decades after..."

Saved from corruption is more like it. You don't know what you're talking about!

Re: # 98 ZeeMax sahib,
As-salaam Alaikom.

"Have you read 'Of Mice and Men' by Steinbeck?

No, I'm busy dissecting the mice here, although the fake surgeon from Down-Underwear ought to be doing just that!

"Lots of men (and women) read you and appreciate what you convey, as well as the style you use to convey the same. Besides, you have never been abusive in the first place while all your detractors have."

Here detractors; a genuine testimonial! Now don't you mice dare go after 'Get Smart' ZeeMax!

The guardians of indecency and immorality are like little children who, when justifiably spanked, go around shouting, 'Help! Child-abuse!'

Regards.

Re: # 104 quin

Thank you for a very well articulated message. Your argument and style are worthy of respect and are much more likely to stir interest and curiosity about exploring the hidden treasures of the Quran by an open minded and neutral person than the angry rantings of others. If more Muslims who advocate the beauty and truthfulness of the Quran had an approach like yours, Islam would see far fewer detractors than is presently the case. I hope that you will serve as a model and inspiration to others who are too steeped in their small minded and egotistical argumentativeness to do justice to their cause. Defenders of Quran like yourself do far more honor to their faith and its founder than others who take an antagonistic approach.

Thanks for setting a respectable standard.

...SR

Al Qu’ariah (Sura 101)

"O the noise and clamour
What is that day of noise and clamour
Only if one could say.
What is that tumultuous day.
When men will be like a scattered moth
And the mountains like a tattered cloth.
And those whose balance will weigh so
To comforting pleasures they will go.
And those whose balance will not weigh
For them a deep abyss will wait.
And do you know what is that pit,
And the fierce inferno lit in it?

The above is my rendition of that powerful Surah (101).
Most have no idea about the beauty of Quran. You need heightened aesthetic sense and well developed literary mind to be able to appreciate it. And most of all you need to have an open and seeking heart - not ensnared in ego trap. Neither are such high thoughts accessible to those who totally rely on logical and linear thinking. You need to go beyond the words. You must be able to dive like a scuba diver into the very depths of the source of that intelligence. Mostly people see the surface only - including many who believe and even are inspired by it - but still are unable to go beyond the surface.
Most cannot recognize the fountains of spirituality which are gushing every where in Quran. Some are blessed to drink from it - some drinks only coca cola.

There are books much ancient than Quran - safe and preserved - and revered. What is harm in benefiting from the wisdom available to us on those pages of Quran? What is the use of arguing about trifles and not enjoy the bounty.

The irony is that Quran is not just a book – for Rumi’s it was a beloved and Rumi said 'it (Quran) unveils itself only to the willing ...' Do you get it? Who can get it without aesthetics?
And Iqbal's father said to him, 'you will know Quran only when you will feel it being revealed to your heart ...' Do you get it? Who can get it but a lover?
So there is no point talking about Quran ...
It will not show its reality to the unwilling ...
It will not reveal itself to stiffened hearts …
When it touches, it changes life ... but it touches not the one who are unclean ... (unclean was not meant literal - it is cleanliness of heart - like when someone went to a Bhudda monk, and the monk kept pouring tea in his already filled cup and the seeker asked and he said, if your cup is not empty how can I give you any) - that kind of cleanliness - it is not wuzdu - it is washing clean of your heart of ego so that reality can reveal itself to you)
So what is the use of talking about Quran and Mohammad and Islam - The ultimate reality takes care of itself - who am I to tell anyone anything - Even Prophet was reminded not to agonize and just say things nicely - just deliver the message – and the Truth will find its way where it will - why I would worry. I am not given the task. I am not Mohammad. Yes, I will say truth which I see but I won't be agonizing. Why should I? I am not the disposer of any one’s affairs.
I believe, nay, I know, I know for sure like I know the day light that this E=mc2 of spirituality flashes truth to those eyes who can see that realm of nuclear fusion and fission and can sustain the view. And this same blast of light renders blind those who do not have capacity to look at such glare. They can only read neon signs.

PS: I am posting this interact as iLog. I will not reply through interacts here. It is not relevant to the topic of the article. If you would like to reply on this, please do it on my iLog. Love and peace to all ...

Reply to # 102 of Charlie :

Dear Charlie what made you to change your Lahori or Pakistani name and considering yourself as Charlie..??

If you live in Canada for thousand years and if you use tons of fairy and lovely cream , and if you rub yourself thousand times with scholars like Dr Sohail ,and if you openly redicule Islam and Pakistan to please white men..even then White woman or man will never consider you as one of them..

Quran also says " Ala bayzikrillah e tatma e nyl Qalub " Verily hearts find peace in the rememberance of Allah.

One billion people find peace of heart by remembering name of Allah,..

On the other hand business of Dr sohail and his anti Psychotic pills thrive when morning after pills fail.

And when your heart needs solace and soothing effect , do you think , recitation of E = MC2 will give you peace of heart and mind.

Regards,

#100 go F yourself fool before comment on a book you know nothing about,

Masadi Yaar, Why shouldn't I comment on a book? After all, people write reviews for books and express their likes and dislike... Why my opinion makes your blood pressure go out of control ... :)


Quran is not even an original book... It doesn't stand anywhere from a literary point of view... Half of it is copied from bible... Rest of it is useless , pointless effort to be poetic... Remember "Al qaria tu ma al-qaria, wa ma adraak a ma-alqaria ?" I mean what a useless verse is it... If I don't know what is "Al Qaria", why Muhammad has to repeat it thrice before coming to the point... And then you claim nobody can come up with even a single verse like that...

E=mc2 is probably a much better verse... No stupid repetition, no effort to confuse people and no effort to spread terror of Hell and Fire...

In #100, "his cheap reliance on what the so-called "historians" have invented regarding its history in order to legitimize their own BS through imaginary "lost verses" of the Quran, reveals that quite aptly

Charlie writes to Tahir "How come people are so dumb to believe in a 1400 years old book..."

First, in order to claim that certain people are "dumb" to believe in something, the one making the claim should have read what he claims is "dumb", which this fool has not. He does not know and has not read the Quran, his cheap reliance on what the so-called "historians" have invented regarding its history in order to legitimize their own BS through imaginary "lost verses" of the Quran.

Second, any damn fool can understand why Tahir is quoting verses, he is not quoting them to convince dumb f'ck nonbelivers like Charlie, he is quoting them to convince those who already accept the book as authority, a very valid use of quotation of verses, but this fool does not have a clue regarding rudimentary argumentation. My advice to him is a very polite, go F yourself fool before comment on a book you know nothing about, the morality and literary value of which neither you nor your entire generations past and future cannot match....

Re: # 93 Verses blah blah blah and blah...

How come people are so dumb to believe in a 1400 years old book quarter of which was eaten by goats, one third was lost because it was stored on broken pieces of jars/glasses and tree leaves... Rest of it was compiled by some caliph decades after it was "written" by Muhammad.

tahir Saheb,

Have you read 'Of Mice and Men' by Steinbeck? That's true about Chowk. Forget the mice. Lots of men (and women) read you and appreciate what you convey, as well as the style you use to convey the same. Besides, you have never been abusive in the first place while all your detractors have.

Re: # 91 Quin

Look I addressed you as QUIN, after all!

"Tahir is doing disservice to his own passionate cause. And over time, he will most probably learn"

The truth of what Tahir is or is not doing is known to him and Allah alone. Let the analysis-game be played by Baba 'case' of Toronto, why must you make me lie on the couch?

Like Mr. Gill and others, you too have missed the (real) insults hurled at me for defending Islam.

Read #93 to see why I do what I do.

Re: # 86 Sohail Rabbani

You're taking pot-shots at me because once when you said something silly, I asked you to reflect on your surname RABB-ANI!

"I'm ashamed of you. The articulate, intelligent and sensitive Tahir that I thought I had first seen on Chowk was a breath of fresh air."

Don't be, SR! I am highly readable when I write! Stay tuned for more.

"a tree is know by its fruits. Is this the image you want to project about your faith and its founder"

You haven't really tasted the fruit you so lovingly condemn SR! Read my post #93 please. And since when have YOU become a defender? If you have, stand up like a man to be counted instead of hiding behind whatever or whoever.

"there will be no one left who will lend an attentive ear to your preechings?

We shall see SR! Being decent does not mean taking one's pants off to let others do what they please.

My chastity-belt is glued to my trousers in case, you failed to notice.

Ta-ta

Re: # 88 Mr. Gill

I'm addressing you to protest against what YOU and your supporters label as 'abuse'. My answers and rebuttals are not abuse, rather anti-Islam hackers' ranting is exactly that! Did you miss THEIR MC-BC type abuse?

I've seen this attitude and protested against it and ChowQ did take delayed action, in case you failed to see that.

And how could you miss--leave alone defend--reading the filth hurled (by those you defend) at my family?

I have carefully noted who you're siding with, and hope that your needle will start pointing in the direction of the TRUE Qiblah so that it does good to you in the end.

Ta-ta.

A kangaroo from down-underwear says I'm an Asadite!

Well, Asad means: lion! A lion always roars! But wolves hunt in packs, especially at ChowQ.

An Asadite always spanks Sodomites for a good reason.

Re: # 90
As-salaam Alakaikm Asadi sahib,

I have read and do understand what you say; these OTHERS don't!

As long as one spits out against Pakistan and Islam, one is reagrded as a likeable writer/interacter, but as soon as one takes on these paid agents (or 'shaiytani khidmatgaars'), they ERUPT! All of them have had a synchronised ERUPTION but their Mount Vesuvius will bury them in Pompeii.

My arguements and guidance comes from THE source and I would like to draw the unkind attention of my bitter opponents to the following verses now.

48:29
MUHAMMAD is God's Apostle; and those who are [truly] with him are firm and unyielding towards all deniers of the truth, [yet] full of mercy towards one another. Thou canst see them bowing down, prostrating themselves [in prayer], seeking favour with God and [His] goodly acceptance: their marks are on their faces, traced by prostration.

This is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel: [they are] like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and [in the end] stands firm upon its stem, delighting the sowers....

[Thus will God cause the believers to grow in strength,] so that through them He might confound the deniers of the truth. [But] unto such of them as may [yet] attain to faith and do righteous deeds, God has promised forgiveness and a reward supreme.

5:54
O you who have attained to faith! If you ever abandon your faith, God will in time bring forth [in your stead] people whom He loves and who love Him - humble towards the believers, proud towards all who deny the truth: [people] who strive hard in God's cause, and do not fear to be censured by anyone who might censure them: such is God's favour, which He grants unto whom He wills. And God is infinite, all-knowing.

So you see, their utterences and blasphemies are recorded here at ChowQ (note the 'Q'), and on Judgment Day they will have their DVDs hanging by their necks; the RECORD will be played out and weighed in God's Balance.

While I need not reach for my handgun every time they insult Islam and God, it is the sign of a weak Muslim to allow such non-sense. It is the true Muslims that strike terror in the hearts of unbelievers.

As far as I'm concerned, they can live their rotten far-from-the-Motherland lives anyway they like but need to refrain from insulting Islam or joining others who do.

As for non-writers becoming (fifth) columnists at ChowQ, this disease is spread evenly all over the western-controlled media.

May Allah bless those who believe in all that He wants us to believe in, refrain from what He forbids and fully indulge in what He permits. And for His deniers and 'Hizb al-shaiytan', who am I to say more? The Qur'an is sufficient, and the definitions complete in their description; it is THESE that makes them ERUPT!

Monsoon regards.

Thanks for bringing these aspects of Freud and Jung to light.

Folks, folks, folks, calm down. Such angst is not salt's worth. Ironically, here is my penny’s worth.
There is no doubt that everyone crave for respect. And I absolutely do not condone the profanities or objectionable language. But respect usually is earned - and not commanded. And I do think Tahir is doing disservice to his own passionate cause. And over time, he will most probably learn where his heart’s seeking truly lies – for now he has got ensnared in a place from which he cannot get himself free. He is a seeker like everyone else, like Dr. Sohail (in a different vein – I know what all this going to bring to me – but intellectual honesty is the first and foremost for me – I can be abrasive – I may be misunderstood - but I will not be dishonest – I have no other intentions than to just contribute my penny’s worth – so I will not be dishonest)
I was saying that both are seekers but are ensnared in traps of their egos. I myself struggle with this ego thing. We all have our egos (please please please ego is not used here in negative sense – it is our persona which traps us into believing it as our ultimate reality –it is a formation of psyche which takes shape only in relation (interaction) with others – We almost live in others – take out others and we are no more)
Anyway, we very easily become ensnared in our egos. Because we live in others. That is the problem which happens everywhere and Chowk is no exception but at Chowk it becomes more intensely visible due to nature of the media or medium.
Think about Chowk. As its name implies it is place of crossing roads and to do some tit-e-tete. And chair chaar. And gup shup. And yes, on one corner someone may be doing some serious stuff, or not so serious, and folks may gather around to listen to his or her wonderful creations and give daad and all that. But it is a chowk true to its name. There are many serious sites, which control the quality of articles and quality of interacts – but they are not called Chowk. (Unfortunately very few from South East Asian background. Though one I have heard is ‘Khabar’ – anyone tried that?) Now back to Chowk. So when you come to Chowk you may be very moazzaz Lukhnavi hazrat or something but don’t expect that you are in divan khana. You are at chowk. Now please I am not condoning bad language. I have never used such – even in my abrasiveness – as I have said elsewhere, there is not even enough time in this short life to love, how we can afford to fight – but at the same time we cannot afford to be dishonest.
Back to respect. There are two respects. Lip service respect and genuine respect. You may be sweet like gulab jaman, but you may be straight like julaibee. If your actions speak disrespect, what is point of lecturing about respect?
I here ask a straight question to Dr. Sohail. In my previous interact I asked you to show me the link and the supporting material in the article to illustrate that Freud and Jung’s PERSONAL conflicts had any bearing in SHAPING OF THEIR IDEAS? You chose to ignore this question. Do you think I see it as respect to your reader / critic? Is that called carrying on of genuine dialogue?

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Dear S.R.: Post #86

Thanks for your excellent and timely post. The most repulsive and abusive interactors at Chowk are those who proclaim to be the so-called defenders of their respective faith. No religion teaches you to be abusive.

One can make a reasonable point without being unnecessarily abusive and offensive. I do not understand why the Chowk management allows such abusive interacts and does not filter them (even after they get posted). They should at least make sure that the interactors adhere to the Chowk guidelines. Otherwise what good do these guidelines serve?

People like you should express their views more often and as assertively as you have done. With regards,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 86
dear SR..i fully agree with you that mutual respect is the foundation of a genuine dialogue that we are trying to create on chowk.
sincerely sohail

Re: # 80 Tahir --- uncouth and crass

Dear Tahir

I am ashamed of you. The articulate, intelligent and sensitive Tahir that I thought I had first seen on Chowk was a breath of fresh air. But how wrong you have proved me. You are as bad as Masadi. He too, has valid things to say at times but many people ignore him (I certainly do) because he comes across as a frustrated raving mad looney when he rants and wails, insulting others and calling them names when they disagree with him. You are doing the same, as do some others who are supposedly followers of the Arabian Prophet that they claim was the most modest and kind spoken man. But a tree is know by its fruits. Is this the image you want to project about your faith and its founder? If that is the case you do your own cause a huge disservice.

You and your kind disgust others and if you continue there will be no one left who will lend an attentive ear to your preechings. And you shall have been the instrument of defeating your own point of view in a world of competing ideas and ideologies.

Be decent in your postings at least, even if it does not come naturally. It might do your cause some good.

...SR

Due to open door policy muslim have rejoicingly admitted in ther strategic inner circle jews ,hindus aethist deviant mirzaee aga as muslim.Laddu is correct here you can be christian like con artist Bobby Jindal and REMAIN hindu (spiritual ).I believe Hindu named Muslim like Chema than Persian named anybody .Of course he is Aethist

Re: # 83; sorry

instead of Tahir sahib, I should have written "Tahir...the Asadite".

Will be careful in the future

Regards

Re: # 80; Tahir sahib
[[Before each one of us BELIEVED and then practised God's religion, what was he if not an unbeliever]]

I thought according to your mythology every human being was a "born muslim" and it is the parents and environment that changed them to something else??

I'll reply to the rest of your post later.

Regards

Re: # 81
Dear Charlie...you are right. It is partly because Freud had a secular and Jung had a spiritual perspective and blurred borders between science and religion. On the other hand I feel Jung contributed more in personality theories (for example the concepts of introverts and extraverts)that is a great contribution to human psychology....sincerely sohail

Dear Dr Sohail,

As always, it was an excellent read... Very simple and easy to understand even for the ones who have no knowledge of ABC of psychology....

Personally, I think that you are more influenced by Freud than Jung. Is it true?

Keep the good work up...

Re: # 78 FINAL NOTE TO DuNggar Daktar Cheema:

May Allah deal with you directly and in a manner that appropriately punishes your warped interpretations about a great scholar of Islam. Just read his autobiography and bury yourself in sand. Since you had poor schooling to begin with, Dr. Asad's good English will trip you.

Have you read his humble introduction and the recently added foreword in the latest print? Hang your head in shame when you do.

Oye cheemaya, if you wish to believe in contradictory (with one another AND to the Qur'an), insulting, and strange tales, that's your business. The least I can do is to first ask you to walk the path (which you pretend to walk), and then seriously sit and compare this great work with others translations. But I guess you're too buy supporting Q-cumbers, sufis, and other perverts.

And may Allah deal with you for saying:"Asad wrote a book called "message of the Quran" in the English language"

God curse you, Asad's work is a translation+detailed explanation+dictionary+comparison, all rolled into one. His translation of Bukhari was consumed by the riots of 1947 in Lahore (he lived in Model Town!) after which he understood that it was worthwhile to turn his attention to God's own Word.

"He perhaps had no intention of this but as these things evolve, started an almost new heresy within Islam."

Keep your silly imagination locked up or seek help in Toronto!

"Hence his book was banned in the Kingdom (Islamdon) of Saudi Arabia"

Because the current rip-off (of Marmaduke Pickthall) translation uses double parenthesis and quotes page-long ahadith which have absolutely no link with the Arabic text, and does not always explain things to a layman! Although he knew their kings intimately, the KSA (Islam does not permit hereditary royalty) will never permit Asad because people will wake up to facts. A translation must not be solely judged on whether it is banned in KSA. Abdallah Yusuf Ali's version is now disallowed in KSA. So?

Look you foolish doctor, you're making me repeat things! But guess what, I know what I'm talking about, while you pretend, just like MGAQ did! I love my faith and what God says; for you this is drudgery, but for me it is a labour of love for Him! See the difference?

In 1200 years, nobody stood up to truly re-analyse or sift through this placed-on-a-pedestal ahadith literature; it is NOW that scholars are beginning to do that. Within our lifetimes, you will see that some good will come out of this re-search.

I still maintain, after having compared and compiled an index (by no means complete), that the ahadith ammunition stockpile has numerous spent cartridges in it! And you insist on firing them to kill the devil in you. It JUST WOULD NOT WORK! Try the real thing kid.

Who on earth are YOU to clarify my position to Naqs-Bandit; are you my secretary or a personal biographer?

The painful research of a man who saw the material emptiness of western civilisation cannot be so easly disregarded simply because YOU have chosen to do so. And just because his translation is not available at the round-the-corner 'parchoon ki dukaan' does not mean it carries no value for those who wish to be guided.

God's Word (Qur'an) indeed is what counts. Don't try and spin your cobweb around my statements. Your web is the frailest of all structures!

You've bragged about meeting Dr. Asad. I don't have the means to verify your assertions. How can I believe a Bradford brat who insults God's religion in one form or another or joins the jeering crowd when it ridicules Islam?

By bringing up the topic of Dr. Asad's Jewish ancestory, you're being more wicked than the kuffar-e-Makkah! Before each one of us BELIEVED and then practised God's religion, what was he if not an unbeliever or a Muslim by name only? The greatest enemies of faith have sometimes converted to fortify it; the examples are numerous. Why don't you stand up and be counted too?

Go drown yourself in the sea of ahadith for all I care; I'm too busy solving puzzles. I must do Divine classwork now.

You cannot wish me away; now get lost cheemaya.

Re: # 75; Tahir mian,

Post # 78 is very much for your attention and response as well. (I have read the book you refer to ad nauseum!...perhaps a long time before you even discovered it). Like I said to you before, I met up with Mr Asad in Spain with my father when I was a lad and he was 90 I think!

Re: # 73; naqshbandi sahib (Cc: Tahir Gul Hasan...the Asadite),

I see your distress and it pains me sir. I'd tell you a couple of very short stories to make the point I am going to make and it'd also clarify the position and status of your interlocutor in # 73.

Once upon a time in a place called Qadian, a man called Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was born (13th Feb, 1835 to be precise). Whilst growing up, he became increasingly dis-enchanted with the faith of his ancestors and in due course started a movement to attempt to reform this faith. This movement was called the "ahmaddiya movement in Islam" and it was launched in 1889. Subsequently, as it happens in matters of a religious bend, this message (along with Mirza sahib himself) got increasingly distorted and we have the current issues with having to declare them a heresy (initially) with subsequent ex-communication from the fold as we know it.

Second story goes like so. There was born in the land of (initially) Poland (place called Lwow) which is now called Lviv (and part of present day Ukraine) a man called Leopold Weiss, into a Hasidic Jewish family. He became increasingly dis-enchanted with the faith of his ancestors and subsequently adopted a new faith called Islam and changed his name to Mohammed Asad. He travelled extensively within the muslim world and saw first hand the plight of the people adherent to his new faith. He was also not happy with many aspects of this new faith and wrote a book called "message of the Quran" in the English language, inspired no doubt by the very original straight from "Loh-e-Mahfouz"....He perhaps had no intention of this but as these things evolve, started an almost new heresy within Islam. Hence his book was banned in the Kingdom (Islamdon) of Saudi Arabia, amongst other parts of the muslim world. He attracted some followers, nevertheless.

Moral: Upto the reader of the two stories written above.

As for the Conclusion; it is as follows:

The followers pf the former (MGAQ) are called "Ahmadis (Ahmadites)" or "Qadianis", after his place of birth; and the off-shoot faith is labelled as "Ahmadiyyat" or "Qadiyaniat".

By the same token, we call the followers of the latter heresy "Asadis (Asadites)" or perhaps "Ukrainis(?)" and the heresy itself can be called "Asadism" or "Ukrainism".

I hope this clarifies Tahir sahib's position for you.....whatever he may be, wahabbi he is not!

Question remains, does he remain a muslim by asserting that God's word was "incomplete" or "incomprehensable to the Ajami musalman" without Mohammed Asad's intervention! He is also on record here known to disregard "Ahadith" as a source of guidance on matters of a religious nature...therefore denying us of an important souce of history, not to mention an elaboration of the life (and lifestyle) of our Holy Prophet.

Perhaps you can decide whether we should believe "the Word of God" or "the Word of Mohammed Asad"!!

Re: # 76


' am proud of Indian Politicians. "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


60% of recent BJP Karnataka elected have 6 out of ten Criminal records against them ....In last Gujjurat BJP won election no body dared o think other than BJP because be it Hindu (but congress or others) could not even slightly favour prosecution agauinst perpetrators and blatant murders of 2002.
Its synonymous for average to feel anti bjp is anti HINDU and evenAnti Indian ....


I am not saying better for any other politicians .If they wanted to be Nank, Bulleh Shah they would not enter POLITICS

Till date I believe that Indian Politicians lot are of lowest of low lives ,even bellow then standard of whores and pimps.But after watching pakistani politicians for quite some time now I am proud of Indian Politicians.

Re: # 73 Naqs Bandit

"bashing saints like mawlana jalaluddin rumi"

What is Wahabi? At least I don't call my self THAT! In Allah's religion--Islam--one does not have to worship saints or whirl dancing to the 'dholak' of perversions they disguised as 'peoples' religion. Wolves in sheepskin!

Keep yourself busy washing their 'maqbaras' or dancing at their 'dargahs'! And please don't throw a slipper flying from Baghdad in my direction. Oooh I'm so afraid of your sufic powers...

"he has more islam in his toe than the whole wahabi/ahle-hadith/deobandi/tablighi/salafist neokharite nasibi movements put together."

And even more in the love-diwans he wrote for his beloveds: all men! Are you condoning these perversions?

"that book by afzal ahmad"

Afzal IQBAL!

"wahabi fool naa-tahir"

Now watch it Naqs (defect) Bandit, you're getting yourself into spiritual nass-bandi!

"bits translated originally into latin by prudish victorian orientalists in which the venerable hazrat rumi used a few sexual allegories to make spiritual points"

Please don't bestow your sexual spirituality on some poor fellow now!

"his story of the woman who was so overpowered by her lust that she made love to a donkey and died as a result. it is nothing salacious"

Ah! So before I could tell you, YOU told everyone about the sexual-spiritual story! Go ahead quote the whole impious poem now.

"laanat on wahabis and their blockheadedness!"

I think THEY call themselves 'muwahidun' (unitarians). Anyone who blows the lid off this sufi cover is a blockhead, right?

Ta-ta my whirling naked sufi friend.

i stand corrected on Fraud. Thanks.

aah! wahabis bashing saints like mawlana jalaluddin rumi again. know that he has more islam in his toe than the whole wahabi/ahle-hadith/deobandi/tablighi/salafist neokharite nasibi movements put together.

that book by afzal ahmad is actually proof of his islamic credentials and his sainthood you idiot. i am sure this wahabi fool naa-tahir is referring to the bits translated originally into latin by prudish victorian orientalists in which the venerable hazrat rumi used a few sexual allegories to make spiritual points. e.g. his story of the woman who was so overpowered by her lust that she made love to a donkey and died as a result. it is nothing salacious,

laanat on wahabis and their blockheadedness!

A most interesting and informative article.

Nothing original but a well written summary about people we have rather vague memories about.

Re: # 69; and tahir

I am in a good mood so for now...shall merely "register" the other comments and not respond!....bear in mind, don't perceive it as weakness as you always do

let's say.....that'll be for another day!

Re: # 69; tahir

I have no reason to doubt your assertions; in fact I agree with them (about Rumi, i.e.,)!

all I want to know is where that leaves poor allama Iqbal?!!

Re: # 67 Oye cheemaya

You're intellectually empty; who gave you the licence to kill with your surgeon's knife oye?

Challenge, to me? Make me laugh some more!

Go read: The Life & Work Of Jalal-ud-din Rumi (by Afzal Iqbal) with a foreword by Professor A.J. Arberry! Published by PNCA, Pakistan.

The man has written other books as well. In THIS one you will find what the devious little 'saint' was really upto.

Draw your own conclusions, publish a paper perhaps but don't waste my time with your 'open daNggal' non-sense. By having your hair turn gray standing in the sun does not make you a wise man!

And don't come back unless you've read THE MEANING OF THE QUR'AN (by...you guessed it!)

Naqshbandi, I feel compelled to tell you that you are wrong in your statements that modern analysts have given up Freud completely. Many of his theories are still accepted and used every day
You may believe they should not be accepted; that is your prerogative.

Tahir mian

OPEN CHALLENGE!!

you prove the credibility of Iqbal after all you have said about Rumi; especially the pan-islamist reverence you islamists from pakistan grant him day and night!

otherwise we all would be more than justified in re-affirming the solid belief that you are very much the wanker you portray yourself to be!

and do it without personal insults too.....God, you wouldn't have anything to write about, would you??

Re: # 60; tahir
[[Oh how you love Baba Fraud and whirling Rumi of Konya!]]

you still haven't thrown any light on my question from before; this is the same Rumi revered by Iqbal as "perr-e-rumi" and throughout his poetry (both persian and urdu).

Did Iqbal make a mistake?

If NO.....Rumi can't be half bad!!

If YES....can we trust anything else Iqbal said??

by discrediting Iqbal's early poetry as silly and immature "indian nationalism" and subsequent "philosophy" so reliant upon Rumi......there not much left of your Iqbal, Is there??

Thanks for the article dr. sahib.
It was interesting. Though psychoanalysis is certainly interesting and Freud's contribution cannot be discarded a lot of professional psychologists have proven that he falsified and forged a lot of his data on which his sexuality-based theories. Modern psychoanalysts have therefore abandoned almost all of his theories since they are not scientifically provable or falsifiable and the evidence Fraud claimed was often made up by him!
http://donaldclarkplanb.blogspot.com/2007/01/freud-fraud.html

BTW did u know that one of Fraud's disciples/students Otto Rank became first the psychologist and then the lover of the writer Anais Nin?

ist hier ein lil Geheimnis. Tahir liest das tägliche gita. das chutiya, ohne zu verwirklichen, wird im Gehirn thoought ein hinduistisches, welches das ganndoos Herz ist musalman….tahir keine Sorgen bemannen youwill nicht katled, wenn Sie Islam aufgeben und Ihr ' vergessen; uran khatarra Quran ist nicht für Ihre Art!

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Chowk mein budboyein maarta aa gaya jo ek rukh-moor
SarR gayyey kuchh ke naak, bhaag gayay kuch thoor
Hey quinny, you were right. I see this moorukh (or rukh-moor?) nein hun chupeet wut layee hay – lag gayeen hein us ko mirchian – under under tap da phir da – uttoun deidaan smiliyaan.
This is true condescending and arrogance: replying when he can show off; wutting chupeet when he can’t. Well done dude - now you can go back to work - but I suggest take up a new nick to keep battering where you can – every one needs a ‘funny’ mirror (brilliant notion by the way) ; also I liked your blind spot thingy - and the cooking / tasting analogies – aaloo Bukhara or did you mean ullo bechaara.
At last I did read the article but only after reading your interacts and so it became damn clear how weak, and worthless this piece is. Even our high school kids are doing better these days. And yes "far fetched speculative" conclusion. These are our professionals. No wonder Pakistan is such a Kishware Haseen shad bad.
(don’t take me wrong – I love Pakistan – and I sing Pak sir zameen shad bad whenever I log-in )

#57 your opinion on whether he was a Jew or not means nothing at all. He was a liberal Jew. He met the ultimate criterion of Jewishness; he was targeted by the Nazis, and yes, his ashes are buried at Golders Green.

Re: # 58 Quinn

Consider the extra 'n' dropped.

Oh how you love Baba Fraud and whirling Rumi of Konya!

“Flowers are restful to look at. They have neither emotions nor conflicts�

I guess he was describing those could were unable to pay his fees and got deflowered on the couch!

“Whoever loves becomes humble. Those who love have, so to speak, pawned a part of their narcissism.�

I guess THIS involved his wife, her sisters and female cousins together in bed (just like John Lenon and Yoko Ono protesting away with a little child in a twin-bed)!

Good bye, and keep on engineering...

Re: # 57 A.M. dear,

I expect that you WILL switch over to a name that does NOT remind you of what you were but rather what Allah wishes you to be. Good effort can sound better if you consider my advice.

As for "haya, Sharam,Parda", these are alien concepts in lands that promotes bestiality, pornography, homosexuality, lesbianism and other perversions in the name of 'freedom of expression. Its more like 'freedom of XXX-pression'

:)

The one point which I really wanted to make but forgot as I got entangled in structural points, is that not only drsohail but many professionals and general public misunderstands the concept of sex as Freud actually meant. Generally speaking, sex is narrowed down to the actual sexual act. However, Freud saw it as Eros – the life force -that not only creates life BUT ALSO PRESERVES IT. All its preserving acts may include phenomenon such as love without ‘sex’ (so to say), and is associated with all kinds of positive emotions and social behavior, cooperation and collaboration - all that which tries to preserve LIFE. Opposite of Eros was termed Thanatos – the death drive.

So his idea of sex was much deeper than usually perceived even by professionals (as being a professional does not guarantee an understanding of the philosophy – there is science and then there is philosophy of science – two different things)
My own personal belief is (and lest anyone forget I am only a professional engineer) that to properly convey Freud’s meanings, a different diction should have been evolved, as the word ‘sex’ got too narrowly interpreted in later times than what Freud meant by it. Freud did not see it in any pervert way. simply, Freud’s followers let him down by not adapting vocabulary to keep things distinct. On the other hand, Jung did a great job in developing new diction for his discoveries.

Missing the core teachings of such big minds and drawing not to their real wisdom, but picking the cherries from the surface – is what put bad taste in my mouth.

Here are two most beautiful quotes of Freud for dessert:

“Flowers are restful to look at. They have neither emotions nor conflicts�

“Whoever loves becomes humble. Those who love have, so to speak, pawned a part of their narcissism.�

Deep deep stuff – almost poetic – Rumi like .

Anyway friends, this is my last post on Chowk. I have a few intense projects coming my way. My involvement here was tentative anyway, and I came here for a reason, partly, to get a taste of things around here. Had some lovely exchanges … some not so lovely but as Rumi said in his “Guest House’ … welcome them all.
I will thank every one individually through PMs – sorry that is my way of paying respect. I will post this part of the interact as iLog with my e-mail in case you would like to keep in touch.
Wishing peace and love to all … Mutaal Mooquin

Reply to # 51 0f Dr Sohail,

Dr Sohail,

I would not recognize Freud as a Jew , as orthodox Jews and Eastern Christians don't agree with his approach and they also don't agree with " un-paid prostitution " kind of things, which so called greedy European settler Jews brought to Israel.

Maximum, we can call Freud as a " Munafiq " Jew .

Like most of the European thinkers, Freud was probably not aware of the Eastern concept of " Haya " , modesty and his writings and activities revolved around his own culture.

In English we don't have proper word for " Haya ", the closest word probably , is modesty.

I hope as you grew up in the lap of an Eastern mother , hence you may know about concepts of " Sharam , Parda and Haya " .

After reading your articles , I believe you can be a Freud of Pakistan and you can incorporate Eastern concepts of " haya " , " Sharam " and " Parda " in the modern science of Psychology and Psycho- analysis.

Re: # 51
Worshipper of the J-people, Dr. Sohailsky,

Isa (peace on him) was NOT a Jew (follower of Judaism) but a Muslim and a Prophet. Get your facts right! The same is the case with Ibrahim (peace on him). You've been watching too many Hollywood movies!

Have you forgotten where you come from, the people you've left behind, and what contributions they've made to world history? I think you have.

In treating emotionally unstable people, you've lost your sense of being as a Muslim.

Get a better glimpse through the Qur'an about these allegedly 'smart people' you seem to love so much, these creators of deadly Godless Communism, the A-Bomb, and controllers of all mass media perversion....

How did you miss mentioning Adlof Hitler?

Re: # 49
As-salaam Alaikom,

Just a handful know how Marxists and shrinks have become esteemed columnists (5th. columnists!?) at CHOW-Q. Guess what 'Q' stands for?

Look, Baba 'case' of Toronto, Najma-goes-to-Torn-Ronto, and loser Q-cumbers are all well-settled in frozen hell, doing their 'thang'.

Writing well is better than psycho-analysis. Ah! the pain these creatures inflict upon the 'sheeple' with their sex-centred stories...

Regards.

Re: # 46
Pyaray Bacho, Kiwi kia hay?
Kiwi aik parindah hay
Har aik polish ki dibbia par kiwi hehta hay

With this jingle, NOW can you guess what is the purpose of this gem from Baba 'case' of Toronto?

I said it eons ago: the man NO CAN DO! But that doesn't mean he must be allowed to try at our expense. My God, what an expense!

drsohail, I agree with Dash_dot.
I hadn't heard that joke in toto btw, pretty good!

Re: # 51 hhhhm! you are a muslim I think (a practising one???)


I would be careful in these times of religious fundamentalism!

Re: # 48
dear ahmedmadani...your letter reminded me of an anecdote
human history and civilization is the result of the contributions of five jews
the first jew was moses who said that human mind is the most imporatnt thing so we need to think seriously about life
the second jew was christ who said that human heart is the most important thing and we need to be kind and compassionate
the third jew was marx who said that human stomach is the most important thing we need to feed people and solve their class conflicts
the fourth jew was freud who said that sex is the most important thing if unsatisfied it can cause emotional problems
the fifth jew was einstein who said nothing is absolute it is all relative
it is interesting how many psychiatrists and psychologists in europe and north america were jews but most of them were non-practicing secular jews....sincerely sohail

Re: # 49 LOL MASADA Complex - your second para.

Could you please write a few words on this and post it here - seeing that your submissions are not accepted for publication on FP

This article written by chowk's resident shrink has no place on chowk fp yet it is plastered right at the front with the mugshot of this fool, and articles that are relevant to the Pakistan/India scene like the ones I write and blatantly censored with impunity. This is the kind of bs site this chowk is becomming. Now, what is the value of summarizing some biographical aspects of personalities, what does it add to our understanding of the homeland and its position within the world system or of the current setup of the world. These shrinks are part of the mechanism of capitalism to blame the individual for the problems the system creates, to profitably link that blame with disease and with medicine both very profitable ventures and to convert a people who have discovered their freedom via a lable into those that are the outsiders or rejected or psychotic. These shrink they are criminals, the witch doctors of the present era working with the powers that be to control and dominate humanity and as Al-Gore says when he tries to profitably sell the environment (capitalist style), this control and domination "need not be costly"- push the drugs make the big bucks, fools psychosis in the Western world is positively related with shrinkery, so what have you fixed? Absolutely nothing.

Remember Karl Mannheim's assertion, during times of integration and status quo the "psychotic" might be the exception, to be controlled by institutions and law enforcement but during times of crisis and institutional contradiction, he (the pyschotic) defines the course. What does this tell you about the psychosis in the Western world? IT tells you that that system even under maximum control, drugs and a bursting prison population is in deep crisis, the change is coming, humanity will be liberated and the shrinks will be out of business hunted and destroyed as oppressors of mankind

Dr.KS Thank you sir for your article.
Do Freud and Jung were Jewish ? Was Adler also Jewish ?
It appears one can not become great in scholarship unless one you have at least few affairs . That where average person fails , he lusts in dream of opposite sex, money and power fame and goes to sleep snoring.It is said saints are awake at night and worrying about world and worldy things.
Good day.

hurricane, I appreciate your openness. hmmm and your poise. I confess I may have been abrasive and all that ... I think I am like a 'funny' mirror ... if you know what I mean (if not then read interacts again.)
communication skills ... now you are being condescending sir/madam (i don't know you) - it is interesting how you appear to be protectiing of others ... queer, if I need doc's help for communication skill (who does not in this anyway), you need help with this queer trait of yours ...
(btw, all this is a joke - for fun - even the abrasiveness - nothing here is serious anyway - the more people become serious on trifles more funny it looks - cheers)
PS: there is no double n in my nick unless you are doing intentionally - if it is inentional I take the joke with humour :-) enjoy

However, I confess, if one strips away the abrasive tone of quinn's interact, he does make an interesting point regarding the lack of clarity on how did those affairs shape the modern psycho world.

quin, me thinks you need some communication skills. Perhaps Dr. Sohail can help?

"So, both you and hurricane, listen carefully now. "

jes.

I leesan :)

seriously though. Dr. Quinn the medicine woman, it's you that's appearing condescending, and wee bit...umm...arrogant.

anywho...I'll leave this debate of worthiness of the article between you and Dr.Sohail. I've said enough on the matter

What this fella hurricane does not read before writing and understand before replying is explained again in my reply below to drsohail. Read pl and don’t loose your sleep over others. They are supposedly mature enough to decide and defend themselves.

Doc, fist I do appreciate your thorough reply, however, you have missed the main point of my contention. I had not objected to the simplicity of style. You did not have to ‘defend’ that (and elicit profuse sympathy from others) You don’t expect me NOT to understand one of the basic tenets of good writing – simplicity. If you thought that I don’t understand even that – that is exactly my point. You have tendency to become condescending. (That comes from … but that is another topic – I want to focus here only on the merits of the article).
It is a given – almost an axiom – that good writing has to be simple and elegant and profound. (The best example of which is Shakespeare’s “to be or not to be�)
What I was referring to was the ‘simplicity’ (= ordinariness) of thought and lack of profundity in that article. I will explain here again how you failed in this article due to inept handling of your so mulled over material.
(btw, was I asking you to use jargon? How you concluded that and start explaining the inappropriateness of jargons (or you may have found this as an opportunity to display your knowledge – or you are trying to avoid the real issue of my contention).
So, both you and hurricane, listen carefully now.
What was the basic idea of the article? Tell me. Give me in one sentence (the theme sentence) of the article and then read it again and read the article and you will understand what I am trying to say. Don’t try to impress me with how many pages you read. Let’s talk about the merit of the article that is on the table so to say. Just a reader to writer talk (or a writer to writer talk.) What is your theme? Say it and then you will see that your theme loses substance my dear doctor because it lacks supporting material. And that is what I meant by being simple (=ordinary).

Starting with the tile, it gives an impression of frivolous gossip column as someone else has said. Then, to the two- third of the article you keep dragging reader through Freud’s well known (becoming almost clichéd) ideas. Then comes your intended theme, or so I thought. But you could not produce more than just a narration of the events. And then some of Jung’s ideas (disproportionably less than Freud’s). And then you conclude “It is amazing how the unresolved conflicts of Freud and Jung affected the evolution of human psychology in 20th century.� A far fetched, baseless speculative conclusion.
So do you see the structural incoherence – (Title = onion, Freud’s ideas= aaloo, events = meat, Jung’s ideas= matar, conclusion = aaloo bukhara)

WHERE IS SUPPORTING MATERIAL IN THE ARTICLE TO SHOW TO THE READER THE LINK BETWEEN THEIR PERSONAL CONFLICT AND SHAPING OF THEIR IDEAS? JUST SHOWING THEIR CONFLICT AND SHOWING THEIR IDEAS DOES NOT SHOW THE LINK BETWEEN THEM.
I know you must have mulled over your main idea (viz., link between their personal conflict and shaping of their ideas) for months or years, and you wondered “how the history of Freudian and Jungian traditions…would have been different if …�. But there is this big missing link which does not show reader anything – reader is left wondering only and wonders, "WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE ARTICLE AGAIN?" The conclusion is no more than a conjecture at the best. And that is what is simplistic That is like a high school students’ simplicity, painting things in broad strokes, generalizing too much and not seeing the missing links in logic of their writings.

Every trivial thought which comes to mind is not necessarily worth sharing or worth an article unless you develop it on sound basis.
Doc! Remember theory of blind spots??? Or you need further help.

Thank you Dr Sohail for sharing this wonderful Knowledge with us.

Our Khalifa 2 ( Founder of Nizam e Jamaat Ahmadiyya ) studied Freud and Psychology and he, his sons and his Nizaam became the strongest Pirs of Pakistan.

Now after reading your article , I can do my psycho analysis and I can a bit better understand Pakistani Pirs and their tactics .

You cannot imagine about the psycholgical tricks of our Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.

They are habitual liars , dramatists , actors,black mailers, whiners, 5th columnists , worst torturers ,money worshipers and brutal murderers .

You cannot imagine about the grip and control they have over my life and how much damage, pain and suffering they have caused to Mureeds and followers like me.

When it comes to oppression, blood sucking and cold blooded murders then Pirs of Jhang , Pirs of Multan , Pirs of Rabwah and Pirs of Islamabad become one.

" ibn e Mariam huwa karay koi
meray dard ki dawa karay koi "

Dear Dr. Sohail,

What my fellow moorakhs don't understand that it is very very hard to right simply. Especially if you're technically adept, it is very hard to let go of the jargon (which is used as a safety shield).

The ability to present something in a simple manner is one of the most cherished skill in the world. World leaders that are very successful, are those that can boil an entire plethora of issues faced by a society into something very easy to understand : "Roti, KaprDa aur Makan" for example.

In my own realm, motivational speakers make obscene amounts of money for presenting complicated theories in an easy manner. Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins, etc are not trying to impress us with jargon.

Jargon appeals to intellectual pride, where simplicity speaks to the heart.

So I hope you don't have to defend the simplicity of your writing anymore...us chowkies are a lost cause...don't pay much attention to our criticism ;)

Sorry folks, I still have not read the article. Too much budboo - could not go close despite best intentions. I hear the rumors that it is a gup shup column with with a flavour of psychotic rant. Can someone tell me if it is worth wasting my time. Anyone gained anything from it ...
And folks, they are talking about style now - ha he hu hu
biggest joke ... what style ... do they know what style means????
tahir_the man, thanks for warning; let us see where the mirchin goes. And well said about 'respect' thing. And as far agreeing thing - honestly you write so much - who can read all that - especially slow witted like me - so it is very safe to say - I don't agree with all - you know.
saya-e khudaya-e zuljalal

Re: # 31...............MY WRITING STYLE
Dear Mutaal, Thank you for reading my article and writing a detailed feedback. Interestingly you chose to focus on my writing style by highlighting the pitfalls in my creation and giving me a series of suggestions how i SHOULD write
...how to choose my title
,,,,how to organize my arguments
...how to divide my subject material
...how to be consistent etc etc
Your final comment was that it was 'uncooked material'
These are your impressions as a reader and every reader has a right to enjoy and appreciate or judge and criticize the creation based on his/her personal taste and literary standard. I have no doubts that your comments are sincere as you are a man of integrity. That is why i am responding in detail.

Now let me share the story of conception, labour pains and delivery of my creation.
It took me 9 months to deliver it.
For the first few months I read
....dozens of essays on Freud's life and psychoanalysis
....Jung's autobiography (you would love it as you liked Frankl's story)
...Sabrina's biography
all this was more than 1000 pages
Then I wrote my first draft of 50 pages
Then as a writer I decided to write is as a story rather than a typical essay. To make it interesting I decided to add suspense and focus on conflicts. Of all the conflicts in Freud's life i chose 3 basic conflicts in the form of 3 triangles

FREUD'S FIRST TRIANGLE....Dr Breur and his patient Anna O has a conflict as she falls in love with her doctor. Doctor runs away referring patient to Dr Freud. Freud helps her and psychoanalysis is born, Freud and Breur write an essay on Hysteria

FREUD'S SECOND TRIANGLE
Freud meets two women, two sisters. he marries one and has an a affair with the other. Such romantic conflict is never resolved and turns him into a neurotic and secretive person

FREUD'S THIRD TRIANGLE
Jung consults Freud about his patient Sabrina who later falls in love with Jung an when the affair ends she consults Freud to have therapy to get over Jung. After Jung and Freud break up she stays in touch with both living in Russia. Her letters are found after her death. Sabrina;s 800 pages biography is a page turner. I can send you the reference if you are interested.

I have six drafts of this creation to make it easy to understand. If I was writing in a psyciatric journal for other psychoanalysts I could have chosen to write in the following style

"The libidinal cathexis of Freud's ego was repressed and then sublimated in his writings on psychoanalysis. It was later on projected in his clandestine affair with his sister in law and remained unresolved in his friendship with Jung"

I choose to write that a grade 10 student can understand. It is the style I learnt from
Philosopher...Bertrand Russel
Psychologist..Eric Fromm
Fiction writer..Ernest hemingway
Urdy poet...Meer taqi Meer and Nasir Qazmi
Hindi poet..Kabir Das
English Poet...Walt Whitman
It is the style many mystic poets have used
It is the style we call in Urdu...sehl-e-mumtana
meer says
kaha main ne kitna hay gul ka sabaaat
kali ne ye sunkay tabassam kia
it is simple but profound...words are simple ideas are profound..
Some readers on chowk like hurricane and dana-e-raaz like it.
It is unfortunate that many readers on chowk are upset because i am a humanist. For me human beings are human beings first before they are Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs and jews and Christians or Atheists.
For me Science and Art and Psychology and Philosophy are universal and all for all humanity.
As writers we learn and grow and find our style and then find our readers.

you asked a question...why did i write this creation?...my simple answer is to share with my readers in 5 pages what i learnt in 1000 pages and hope that they would like to know more about Freud and Jung and Sabrina and be curious how human psychology evolved in 20th century.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading those books and was thrilled to write six drafts of my creation. Creative labour pains were worth having.
I feel bad that you are disappointed in my writing style.
sincerely
sohail

Re: # 35 Toofan Mail Express

"worry not my jang ju friend"

First, I'm not Jung; second, not a Jew!

But thanks for what you really mean, if you know what I mean!

Re: # 35 Toofan Mail
"But why such vitriol against a smiling man?"

You mean 'glassy metallic sulphate' or 'extreme bitterness'?

How can I give out the secret for free? I've seen many smiling men actually cry tears of separation, loneliness, regrets and the rest of it.

A picture may not sometimes be worth a thousand words.....

Re: # 31 Quinn
"what was the main reason for you to write this article?"

Just this one question was enough, not a whole review! Apparently you don't know JFK! Baba 'case' can only see 'incoherence' in others, not in himself.

Let us all pray for the victims on the couch now...

Re: # 29
PKSZ_shadbad

"must be final seal on all"

Beware, you're inviting the Navy (actually 'naee') Seals of Rabwah now to explain what 'seal' means!

Regards.

Tahir mian,

"Beware, Dr. JFK (Jang-Fraud Khalid) has admired your mysticism and wisdom which basically means he now wants you on the couch!"

worry not my jang ju friend, I've already told Dr. Sohail that he must wear a chastity belt, as his chosen profession seems to have these liabilities inherent in it.

But why such vitriol against a smiling man?

Re: # 27

"How shallow he sounds when he says, “I respect … this and that�

Its another way of saying, "I hate what you say, but I don't have the guts to disagree with you or take you on!"

"Tahir – you are the man!"

I always thought so myself!

"Though I may not agree with all you say"

Like what?

Regards,

PS: Kishwar-e-haseen shaad baad

Re: # 22
Harry Puttar,
Now that you've addressed me as 'yaar, everybody at CHOWK is invisible, so whenever I put my lips together out of love for mankind, they think its a kiss of death. The spiritually dead are so afraid....

Beware, Dr. JFK (Jang-Fraud Khalid) has admired your mysticism and wisdom which basically means he now wants you on the couch!

:)

I think Dr.Sohail's style is very accessible. And there are a lot of people that are not that hi-fi, you know? Simpletons like myself that cannot comprehend all them college words.

I personally prefer accessible than pretentious!

My vote's with Dr. Sohail.

My view on psychology notwithstanding :)

Dear Sohail, I enjoyed parts of your article. Good basic information written in a style of a school essay. May be it is intentional. May be that is your style as you say – simple, but in spite of everything Chowk readers mostly seems to be at a level a bit higher than high school students. But you may think otherwise.
The other issue I have is – and in most of your writing for me is – logical or compositional incoherence. First you drag on some basic stuff about Freud, then two third way you bring this issue of their not so licit relations. Then without giving any supporting information, you seem to be concluding that their relationship with other women was the fundamental reason for their different approach towards psychology. It is a very weak case to claim that they founded two schools of thoughts all because they were entangled in these relationships. That obviously is far fetched conclusion and article lacks the credibility on that part. (And frankly gives a bad taste to otherwise possibly good material)
Now may I ask that what was the main reason for you to write this article? If you wanted to show how personal dynamics between those two great minds might have played part in shaping their ideas, then the article should be organized around that thought only. Your title do suggests that it was probably your intention – though even with that intention your title smack of something else too. After this tile, it takes a long time for a reader to come across that issue of secret relations. If what you really wanted to show was the impact of personal relations on parting of their ways then why all that school type lecture about Freud’s ideas. You could very well show his ideas and Jung’s ideas but in relation to how those ideas might have been impacted by that relationship – if that was your intention. You could then show a balanced exposition of both minds in a dynamics of personality clash which would have made the article really interesting and worthy. But probably you did not have enough supporting material to do that.
In a sentence, it looks like an uncooked material, which could have been savory if it was properly cooked by an expert hand.
I hope you take my honest criticism in a positive way – it is my way of saying well wishes.
Mutaal Mooquin

Re: drsohail,
"what do you consider their fundamental difference in philosophy"

As you have noted in your own article, Jung had a more spiritual approach while Freud was more materialistic and reductionist.

Well said hurricane - yours is the extreme nugget - no need to say anymore.
oh, and did you read that I was not referring to drsohail as simpleton - he seems to be taking it as compliment. Your quip will be good for simpleton mureeds and patients of him to which I was referring.
And as I said, yours is the extreme nugget - must be final seal on all.

PKSZ,

yes the article does add to the human knowledge and understanding...as I have suggested to Dr. Sohail.

"Dr. Sohail,

It appears that people in your trade should wear chastity belts before coming to work :) :)"

Sorry folks, I was busy, could not respond earlier:
Hurricane: I agree, my post may have sounded too harsh. I might have reacted harshly seeing a pseudo-scholars de-faming genuine scholars for the sole purpose of personal fame and gains . What purpose is served by such articles? Does it increase any understanding of humanity’s knowledge or motivate anyone to seek genuine knowledge or inspire anyone with humanity's love. He brings such topics on various pretexts just for the sake of controversy because he want to use this old tested and trusted technique of gaining fame. Go and gain fame – no problem for me but don’t do gund (shit) everywhere – its awful around here in this corner of Chowk.
The ‘humanism’ – I am no philosopher but I can distinguish when someone is genuinely loving of others or just a narcissist.

Zeemax: You got it …

Dana-e-raaz: drsohail’s raaz daan … from where you got the idea that I want him to say anything – oh, and to clarify – I did not mean drsohail was simpleton – I was referring to his mureeds – I hope you are not one of those – have you read Jung? If you understand Jung then may be you will understand the archetype which is operating between you and drsohail. Read Jung for your own good … before it is too late - and talk to me when you have grown out of your mureedee state ... I cannot help you in this state …
Btw – why all are addressing me with Mr and saab etc …?

Tahir – you are the man! Though I may not agree with all you say … honestly I have not read all that is going between you and hurricane …

Khurram: How nicely and succinctly you have put the finger right on the spot. That is the problem – he is placing too much emphasis on personal issues. Any scholarly work should focus on knowledge side of the issues – not on personal issues. His response to your post is lame to say the least – and if he is so learned why he asks you the question. Does he consider you a student and he being a big master - you see the problem.
Yes, agreed personalities can clash for reasons other than logical but that can happen between any two people. Freud and Jung are not known for what type of affairs they had, not any other intellectual including Iqbal – they are known for their work for humanity.

All: Any genuine humanist will focus and educate people on their work – not on trifles and shitty stuff because his mental stomach had not really digested what they really were about . How shallow he sounds when he says, “I respect … this and that�
But why I am bothered … I am bothered by this budboo which just happened to have somehow come my way … of course there are many other budboos and even worse, but I was just passing by this corner of the Chowk … so I will go elsewhere ... but before I go I should read what drsohail has written in this latest kharafat ... is badboo kay source peh eik nazar daal he louN ;-)

Dr. Sohail,

It appears that people in your trade should wear chastity belts before coming to work :) :)

Re: # 24
dear hurricane....your charmingly mischieviously insightful letter reminded me of ghalib's sheyr
main nay majnoon pay larakpan main asad
sang uthaya tha ke sar yaad aya
bertrand russell once said...it took me fifty years to write simple...i believe we can use words to reveal ourselves or conceal ourselves...some writers like to impress i like to share my thoughts and readers like you make it worthwhile who know not only what i am saying but also what i am trying to say....sincerely sohail

Dear Dr. Sohail,

hahaha....either you're fooling me, or I'm fooling you ;).

a friend of mine recently became extremely intelligent. It's as if he was a mental retard a few months ago, and suddenly this brain was implanted in him. Of course, all such things make me curious so I asked him about the change.

He told me "I am learning to let go of the brain, and listen to my intuition, the wise intuition that we all have".

Needless to say, and as Kaal and several others can testify, I stopped listening to my brain a while back, so I too am labeled a simpleton ;)

Re: # 22
dear hurricane...i am impressed by your wisdom and mysticism...sincerely sohail

Tahir yaar,

you can kiss whomever you choose ;)

What else do I love? A lot actually. And more as each day passes. Yes one does forget God often...it is true...but once the distractions are removed, one can see signs of God everywhere...

Re: # 19
So, you want me to kiss the doctor or what?

Thanks for loving the 'best description yet'; what else do you love?

The doctor has remained at this 'starting line' for too long now! He must sprint forward into religion now that he's done psycho-analysing the entire frozen sub-continent!

Peace.

PS: some unfortunate ones do deny the Creator as soon as they're finished loving...

Re: # 18
dear khurram...you might be right. they might have finally parted. but the question is...were their philosophies fundamentally different (as both believed in helping people by resolving their unconscious conflicts)
or their personalities were fundamentaly in conflict.
many philosophers with different philosophies were friends as their personalities were not in conflict but you have an interesting hypothetical explanation. what do you consider their fundamental difference in philosophy?
sincerely sohail

"Now I must return to minding my 'savings' account..."

:) This has to be the best description yet

Loving any entity completely, transcends "doing as the entity does" and it transcends the behavior of the entity itself, but you begin to see the purpose of that entity and the creator that put that system in place. God can be apparent from a blade of grass itself.

All I'm saying is, that the atheistic humanism practiced by Dr. Sohail is a starting point, as loving humans is a good starting point...but if they truly love humans, they can not deny the creator.

drsohail,
I think you are placing too much emphasis on personal issues. Freud and Jung would have parted ways, no matter what, since their philosphies were so fundamentally different.

Re: # 16
Toofaan sahib,

"don't you see that loving God's creation without bias eventually leads you to realizing the magnificent creator?"

God's Grace (rahmah) does not descend on the rebellious, iniquitous, and the impious.

I can't ever remember loving Iblees, although he too is God's creation! Bias is in all of us since Allah asks us to differentiate between good and evil and make a clear choice in order to be held fully accountable one day.

Now I must return to minding my 'savings' account...

Peace.

Tahir sahib,

thanks for the wiki quote. And amigo, don't worry about quoting wiki, it has been proven to be as accurate or as inaccurate as encyclopedia brittanica.

re: Humanism, yes I know where they head. However, don't you see that loving God's creation without bias eventually leads you to realizing the magnificent creator? ;)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 11 Harry Cane

"humanist. Which means that he loves humanity"

Humanism is something else my friend. Do read some more and don't be deceived. Although I dislike quoting Wicked-pedia:

"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies..... based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly rationality....Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests...In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition...."

Do you see the Godlessness, man-made non-sense pitched against what God has bestowed upon us? Down with the Humanists!

Peace.

Re: # 9
Mr. PKSZ, do you intend to say that Dr. Sohail should say what you want him to say? If that is the case, it will never happen and you will be busy with your rant...well into the future.

Dr. Sohail writes in simple language, which sends a psuedo-signal that the content is also simplistic...but as you continue to read, you find that..."this is exactly what I wanted to know, but could not find in books"...He is doing a difficult job of teaching people like you, so that they could grow up and tolerate the thought pattern of others.

#9 Pak Sar Zameen Shadbad:

Very interesting post :)

PKSZ saab,

While your angst agsint psycho babble may indeed be well placed, your harshness against Dr. Sohail is uncalled for. I feel that he speaks from one of his heart valves and says things as simply as necessary. This is mistaken by others and they think he's a simpleton.

Now, Dr. Sohail is a humanist. Which means that he loves humanity. This is a fantastic thing. One of his heart valves is open (as opposed to most psycho babblists, and most of us on this site, whose hearts are shut). To have the heart fully open and expressive, Dr. Sohail should love humans without restraint, for through that act, he will find that we are all indeed one. Different manifestations from the same divine truth. His heart will shine then.

Hope this clarifies things PKSZ saab?

Interesting and informative. Thank you, Khalid Sohail.

grow up drsohail, grow up!
Well said, Hamzad and Hurricane,
This guy drsohail is a case of arrested development - such a paindoo and pervert that it hard to believe that he has practice in Canada. But simplestons are everywhere. This guy has such fixation with sex and religion that he needs therapy himself big time. Can someon help him?
In the name of revealing the dark side he relishes in pissing around every platform as he has not found the proper place to discharge ... grow up doc!

Re: # 7
Freud's affair was with his sister in law...his wife's sister...his saali...not his brother's wife...bhabi

#5 Posted by nb,

Freud's relationship with his sister-in-law

You mean his 'saali' or his 'bhabi'? If it was the former I guess these are 'adh ghar waali' !

Re: # 5
dear nb...I have a lot of respect for Freud as well as Jung. Both made great contributions to human psychology. But they also had the dark side of their personalities as they were human. Some Freudians and Jungians have hard time accepting that dark side. That is why they avoid discussing the role of Sabrina in Freud and Jung's lives. I enjoy biographies as facts can be as fascinating as fiction...sincerely sohail

This article could be called an introduction to psychodynamics for dummies.
I only became aware of Freud's relationship with his sister-in-law last year. You seem to have known about it for longer. I haven't read much Jung. Is it in his works?
Neither of these men ever claimed they were above human frailty.

hmmm...strange people psychics.

A woman has to do much in a Man's success..
success or de-success...doesn't matter..

hamzaad,

Seraiki is a beautiful language, you should not disparage it.

Dr. Sohail,

In LA, my guru Tom Cruise Swami ji has said that the psychiatrists and the psychobabble they use are nazi mind control methods. So Freud and Jung were perverts at best and nazis at worst, and certainly more welter weight than heavy weights.

Speaking of lightweights, the Freud and Jung saga is replicated on chowk with another couple of feather weights; Manto first loved Gandhi, and then became his worst critic.

Although Jung was at least a nazi, the best thing I can say about Manto is that he does give a sound thrashing to the injuns ...but that's about it

This story could have been written in seraiki to convey the intended pathos and childlike gossip.. instead of dressing up in a suit boot of thoughful insights.