Muslims in America

"Historical Muslim contribution to all the sciences in which they were much ahead of their counterparts in the middle ages is only doubted by Hindu bigots who worshipping sex organs have lost their sense of temporal being."

Mandarji, aka Masadi Sahab,

Would you please tell us about the architects, metallurgist, pharmacists and chemists of the Mughal period. They were all Hindus so there is no mention in different feudal-Namas.

Mandarji, even your prophet would piss on Koran and burn it, if he comes today and sees the plight of Islam and its followers. Indians do not want to be Jewel on some body's top or bottom, they would rather be working constantly new jewel like ideas for common good.

Re: # 235

Mandarji aka Masadi,

"where a new economic order was emerging and the greatest example of that was how India emerged after Muslim conquests, as the Jewel in the crown of the Brit empire,"

India has been jewel of the world from times before Boudha. Respect for Indian culture and spiritual thought is so much from Belarus to Phillipines. Boudha Dharma spread from India to so distant land. Hindu Dharma spread upto Phillipines without conquest and bloodshed.

Ask yourself Mandarji, did any Muslim ruler support any Matha where the seeds of Calculus were sown, did they built any universities. They built memorials for their dead lovers who were wives of some one else before they grabbed them.

Islam tried to physically dessimate the native culture, language and spiritual thought.

masadi:

Another cheap attempt at distraction.

The issue is whether you support jaziya for non-Muslims or not and you do support it.

I'd ignore the BS about India being the jewel in the crown after Muslim rule. They were saying the same thing till 1947.

If you ask Americans, they would say Iraq and Afghanistan are prospering after American occupation. I'm sure you'd believe it. :-)

#234 Posted by masadi on July 5, 2008 11:36:14 am


I got full funding from the university because of my superior gpa, as I worked 60 hours a week


Hmm...aren't students here on an F1 visa legally restricted to working no more than 20 hrs a week...

which means one of two things

1. comrade masadi has a green card or american citizenship that frees him from such restrictions
2. comrade masadi was breaking the law.

Re: # 236

Sattar sahib, I do not wish to interrupt your train of thought - however, in #129 I was referring to the badmouthing coming from YLH (who called chowkies a fool).

BTW, Tauheed sahib is an absolute gentleman who occasionally gets carried away while criticizing Indians and then probably wakes up late in night feeling all guilty, full of remorse, to ask for Allahtala's forgiveness (perhaps even on behalf of GWB)! And I am sure he is fully capable of consuming whatever you dish out to him.

BJ2 (#129),

… oh don’t be such a prude. “Badmouthing� is too strong a word. It is more like having tafreeh at tahmed’s expense. After all, he is the one who wrote a Chowk article, and post after post, questioning sensibilities of those opposed to the war (refer to #194 by masadi). I am only rubbing his nose in this now … for which he set himself up ...

Re #139,

On a serious note: It is a mistake to cite “sectarian hostilities� as the reason for failure in Iraq. “Sectarian violence� is a secondary, nay, a tertiary issue. The main issue is the reason and the intent behind invading Iraq.

When leaders of a powerful nation wage war, they should have firm reasons for doing so. This war was ill conceived to begin with, and this has only become more apparent with time. WMD fears were stoked to manipulate public perception, pre-war intelligence was mischaracterized to support the WMD claims, and arm-twisting was done to hush dissenting voices within ranks. It is a compelling argument that minds were already made up … that we are going to war.

The issue is further complicated by the following consideration: Was Saddam Hussein brought into power by the western alliances in the first place? I have heard compelling arguments that this was indeed the case … perhaps to offset the growing power of Iran under Ayatollah.

The picture gets more complicated when the following is considered: Was Ayatollah supported by western interests (France? USA?) to fill the power void and to keep the Soviets at bay when Shah's government fell? Speculations abound! I wouldn’t be surprised if the reasons of Iraq war can be traced back to the Cold War, political miscalculations, and a byproduct of foreign policies of US and other countries.

Of course, we can always argue that the US was spreading democracy in Iraq; or that the US is protecting itself against Iraqi WMDs (rolling my eyes). I find such views too linear and overly simplistic. Read on …

+++

tahmed (#133),

Blaming the Iraq fiasco on incompetence of Bush administration … as a tactical issue … sidesteps the deeper issue – that of going to war in the first place.

If it was not clear at the beginning, it should be clear now that this war was ill conceived and based on propaganda all along. And ignoring these realities reflects poorly on you.

Real motives of war may forever remain subject of speculation. Was it oil wealth? Was it to ensure that strength of US dollar remains propped up by oil exchange (something Iraqi government was seemingly undermining by accepting Euros)? Were there other geo-political and financial motives? Take a pick.

Of course, you may still believe that US went to war due to WMDs … or to spread democracy in the Middle East (re #137). And that’s the travesty of your views.

And oh yes, from the viewpoint of US population, we attacked the wrong country. Oops, sorry … I guess!

masan writes :

if you are new and try to debate with masadi, you should remember that masadi treats islamic imperialists differently than European imperialists.

FYI, He thinks jaziya tax on non-believers is a good policy. "


Another cheap attempt at distraction. Whereas historical illiterates try to equate conquests of the past with colonization of the present, where a new economic order was emerging and the greatest example of that was how India emerged after Muslim conquests, as the Jewel in the crown of the Brit empire, whereas after colonization it was reduced to the stone age with a handful (literally) of trained rulers who kept the same relationship going. Regarding the Jizya (compensation), no generalization of type these bigots state was applied or is recommended in the Quran, and historically that tax was less than the Zakat tax that Muslims paid, that minorities should go tax free and not compensate for services or exemptions they seek, like the exemption from Zakat, is not in the constitution of any so-called "enlightened" country.

"Truth" the miserable fool writes "You talk about Muslim contribution. Tell us about any university started by mughals..."

Historical Muslim contribution to all the sciences in which they were much ahead of their counterparts in the middle ages is only doubted by Hindu bigots who worshipping sex organs have lost their sense of temporal being.

Then he writes "but lot of Pakistanis landed in US to study some social science or humanities on scholarship because poor Abdul was sent to Afghanistan as cannon fodder."

In understand that your moronic mind is too inadequate to respond to what I write in my posts so you take the easy escape/distration route of ad hominem. I paid for my own social science degree because I got funding from the university for it because of my superior gpa in the undergrad degree, for which my parents paid for year 1 and the rest I got full funding from the university because of my superior gpa, as I worked 60 hours a week to pay my bills together with a full university load of 15 hours/semester. My education had nothing to do with the Afghan war at the end of which I was barely through my O'levels...

MMM aka Masadi,

You talk about Muslim contribution. Tell us about any university started by mughals. Tell us about which Math like Kerala Math, which is now considered the birth place of Calculus two hundred years before Newton and Leibnits,
was supported by Mughals or any Muslim ruler. Tell us about the real history, Mandarji.

Mulla Mandar Multankar aka Masadi,

We would like to hear from you. I do not know your background, but lot of Pakistanis landed in US to study some social science or humanities on scholarship because poor Abdul was sent to Afghanistan as cannon fodder. I hope you are not one such person. If you are then itis really you are a big cheat. Your activism against elite is just empty Islamist burp.

tahir#

There was no ahadith in the translation that I read (although I have also read Sahi Bukhari); actually, the urdu translation is much better than english ones as some of the words are the same/similar in urdu and therefore retain the flavour of the original.

I never said that I did not understand the message but rather that the message, esp. the political Medina part, did not particularly appeal to me. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings in saying this.

Masadi Sahab,

Sorry, if I hurt your feelings. Generally religion, sex and money (RSM) are avoided in discussion. It's little easy to talk about Benezir, Britany, Birla and Bhangra. But for mst of us, yours truly included, RSM occupies big chunk of our mind, almost defining our identity.

First, it is not Islam that "captures" political power, the fools do that in the name of Islam,

Who are those fools? Are they non-Islamic? To capture political power "the fools (TF)" need faith enhancing pirs, courtier writers and King-Nama creating historians and foot soldiers and dhimmi tax (Ziziya) paying financier and Jakat (tax) and Chanda paying believers, as per my understanding. Please correct me.

second the ability to colonize the life world was perfected by the capitalists of today and not by the Muslims of the Middle Ages who even when they got political power did not by fact or defintion get rid of the alternative identities that coexisted, at the time of partition the Hindus outnumbered the Muslims of India, and did not consider themselves subservient to them,


Let us leave capitalist of today aside for time being. Hope we are not playing blame game. Do you mean Aurangzeb did not happen? Shahajan was equally brutal as Aurangzeb. Large populace was allowed to practice Hindu religion for political exigencies, tactical reason and for generating revenue as Jiziya. It was not because of any altruistic or attitude of "celebrating diversity."


unlike the European settlers who wiped out wholesale the very existance of the indigeneous folk, the fact regardless of your bigotry against Islam (contrived and full of BS)


Granted they might have done to Americas but did not or could not do it in Asia. But why bring them into picture. We are focused on Islam. I would like you to hold my own mirror in front of me, not show my image you see in your camera. All of us tend to have tented lenses when we focus our camera on others.


is that never before in the history of the world have so many of such diverse cultures been enslaved by externally defined sense of worth and self, as in today's America-led world. The world today is much smaller than it ever was in the past, which has ensured that the means to define and process reality in the hands of the elite are much greater and the feat much simpler.


Compared to Muslim period, in present so called American period, there is more celebration of Indian culture, spiritual practices and art all over the world not just in India. More Indians are doing Yog, Meditation and chanting compared to Muslim period. More Indians are Garv Se Kaho Hum Hindu Hain. World is smaller, thanks to communication technology and progress in aviation. 30% employees of Bell Labs are Indians. More than 50% of telecom and internet related start ups in silicon valley were started by Indians. NASA is 20% Indian. While achieving these successes Indians do not need to profess new religion or disown their culture and identity. Compare that to Rajputs of medieval India. Aren't majority of them Muslims with Arabic first and lat names? Can these Rajputs talk there Rajasthani or Marwari language? Trace the progeny of Raja ManSingh.


Islam has never had problems of identity and worth based on label, Muslims have invented their preceived superiority just as people of other faiths have; the sense of worth Islam defines is based on character and act and not on some label or belonging with a group, in fact it busts xenophobia and ethnocentricity by declaring that all are equal creations of their one God who because of how they act and what they do either stunt their growth or reach higher levels of development.

Would you be able to call yourself from today onwards as Mullah Mandar Mulatankar? A Jain or Boudha can be Mittal, Agrawal, Chougule, Shinde or Singh and be devout Jain or Boudha. Even Indian devout Christians have names such as Rev. Arjun Krishnan. How about Muslims? I have not seen a Indian Muslim with their native language names. Look at even Bangladeshis who separated from west Pakistan because of the pride in their language but you won't find a Bangladeshi Muslim with names such as Nirankar Dhakkakar. The new converts to Islam first lose their individual identity.


Now I know you Hindu bigots are obsessed with Islam, but only a fool would learn from your perversion of history and your ignorance of the Quran what it is about, so refrain from constructing strawmen where you define what your miserable understanding of Islam


For the survival of true Islam you need to get obsessed much more than me, to save spiritual part of Islam and throw away imperialistic and cultural linguistic enslavement part of Islam.

Masadi Sahab,

Sorry to make you so angry! I would like to learn your pov.

"I usually don't like wasting time with dimwitted bigots of your calibre, but let me remind you that leaving aside the capitalists of today, you cannot understand today's world."

You are not the only one who call me dimwitted, many dear ones also do. So welcome to the crowd of dear ones!

Excess labor is capital. The west so far monopized inventions and technological innovation which creates the excess labor. Chinese and Indians are trying to beat them in their game. Todays world is like an arrow which was sent released in our collective past, passing the present and going into future. The present can reduce the speed or change its direction little by defection.

"The Europeans didn't do away with the indigeneous Indian population because unlike a settler area, India was colonized, they didn't want to move there in large numbers, just keep you backward and extract the most from you. Compared to colonization where India at the end of which India emerged as a stone-age, backward country compared to the developed nations of the world, Muslim rule left it as the jewel in the crown of the British empire,"

You probably are right, British sucked lot of material wealth from India and also tried to destroy Indian civilization, but Islam/Muslims were physical threat to Indian civilization.

" not to mention that their numbers, even though Muslims were settlers were greater than the number of Muslims, telling you quite plainly that no genocide like that practiced by white settlers too place and no conversion by the sword took place as well."

Looking at how Pakistan and most of the Muslim countries treat their minorities can we say that the forceful conversion did not happen. Islam for most of its followers is a political dogma.

"Now you can invent your own history to suit your BS bigotry and ask us to live in the past and forget the present- such is not what I spend time with or would like to spend time with."

The present is this, Bangalore is San Jose of India. Pune, Noida and Hyderabd are Seattle of india. This present would not happened had there not beeen Shivaji and Guru Govind Singhji. What is happening today in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be happening in these places.

"Muslims brough a lot of positive changes to this world for one they sparked the European rennaisance which lifted the dirt dwellers to what they then became, and instead of thanking them, they turned the Muslim enlightenment on its head presenting a distorted view of Islam for the purpose of identity management and to monopolize the beneftis of their ill gotten power."

Frankly I do not care so much about European history. I would thank Americans for their Haliday Resnicks and Russians for their cheap physics and math books. You should ask why they did, what they did to Muslims/Islam. When one does not find divinity in himself he cannot find any thing outside also. Such a dead man reading number of times a book written in 7th century can easily be made into cannon fodder for imperialism of whom you called "the fools."

"If you think Hinduism and Hindu culture is fluorishing by deculturation of the kind going on in India, you are sadly mistaken, Hindu nonsense might fill sound bytes of tv programs as you white masters partake in its "exotic" practices to counter what the capitalists are doing to them, doesn't mean that such is a fluorishing of Indian culture."

If it's making people happy and brings food on the plate, then it's fine for us. Hindu nonsense hopefully makes people believe in themselves their own creative abilities and not searh it in some books and gurus. They can be guide but they should not own their identity, which Islam does.

"You are a cultural illiterate and a social moron."

Masadi Sahab, would you please start celebrating the cullture. If you become Mullah Mandar Multankar then I will take your Socialogy 401 and Culture 501 class. let me know the prerequisite, such as saying the Kalima, which I woud gladly do it if you translate it in Hindi.

"It is not about Islam stupid, it's about power and manipulation where a population is Muslim, religion is a subordinate institution except among rejected groups, it's the political economy stupid, ignore it to enhance your own stupidity, as is done by intellectual sh**s like Ali Sina..."

The world is saying in chorus, "It's the islam, Stupid!"

#215 Posted by truth100 on July 5, 2008 2:15:36 am

REDSKINS ROCK...

IF you don't forward this message to 50 people, you'll die...


p.s.you seem like the gullible type..the type most likely to forward chain mails...

p.p.s: ahmadmadani?

truth:

if you are new and try to debate with masadi, you should remember that masadi treats islamic imperialists differently than European imperialists.

FYI, He thinks jaziya tax on non-believers is a good policy.

truth writes "Let us leave capitalist of today aside for time being..."

I usually don't like wasting time with dimwitted bigots of your calibre, but let me remind you that leaving aside the capitalists of today, you cannot understand today's world. The Europeans didn't do away with the indigeneous Indian population because unlike a settler area, India was colonized, they didn't want to move there in large numbers, just keep you backward and extract the most from you. Compared to colonization where India at the end of which India emerged as a stone-age, backward country compared to the developed nations of the world, Muslim rule left it as the jewel in the crown of the British empire, not to mention that their numbers, even though Muslims were settlers were greater than the number of Muslims, telling you quite plainly that no genocide like that practiced by white settlers too place and no conversion by the sword took place as well. Now you can invent your own history to suit your BS bigotry and ask us to live in the past and forget the present- such is not what I spend time with or would like to spend time with. Muslims brough a lot of positive changes to this world for one they sparked the European rennaisance which lifted the dirt dwellers to what they then became, and instead of thanking them, they turned the Muslim enlightenment on its head presenting a distorted view of Islam for the purpose of identity management and to monopolize the beneftis of their ill gotten power. If you think Hinduism and Hindu culture is fluorishing by deculturation of the kind going on in India, you are sadly mistaken, Hindu nonsense might fill sound bytes of tv programs as you white masters partake in its "exotic" practices to counter what the capitalists are doing to them, doesn't mean that such is a fluorishing of Indian culture. You are a cultural illiterate and a social moron. It is not about Islam stupid, it's about power and manipulation where a population is Muslim, religion is a subordinate institution except among rejected groups, it's the political economy stupid, ignore it to enhance your own stupidity, as is done by intellectual sh**s like Ali Sina...