Muslims in America

Yasser, what I do not get about Islam is –

(1) all the talk about liberal, progressive, peace-loving Islam comes from individual adherents who do not have a training in religion,

(2) Those who immerse themselves more and more into Islam start quoting the Book’s verses and become stricter and stricter in interpretation,

(3) the more immersed a person becomes in Islam, the more Mullah-like he/she becomes.

(4) if Mullahs are wrong and without support of the folks (especially in the USA where the educated “elite� supposedly live) then why do the lay people allow them such power? Are the mullahs supermen?

(5) where is the deep, driving desire among the Muslim masses for change in the status quo – (a) status of women, (b) apostasy laws, (c) according to other religions the same rights and privileges that Muslims expect for themselves in the countries where Muslims form a minority?

Disclaimer: I am aware of some of the commendable stances you took while at Rutgers (including against one Ramzi Ahmed Yousef) and there is no intention to belittle the same!

Note: In my view, the rights of the Muslim immigrants are made safe in the same manner in the USA as are the rights of all immigrants – by such immigrants immersing themselves inside the American mainstream, by appreciating this country, and watching out for its interests and well-being as much as any American. It is a mistake for Muslims (and others) to bring in the hostilities, prejudices and other baggage from “back home�!

"Still one of the biggest regrets I have is that I spent way too much time with the Muslim community there instead of reaching out and fully immersing myself in American mainstream- as I ought to have done as an international student studying in the most scientifically and technologically advanced country in the world."

Excellent point. When I came as a student and thought I would go back after 2 years, I purposely immersed myself in the American community by joining a student coop. And was rewarded by quickly learning a lot of things many Pakistanis never learn even after spending a lifetime in the US.

"...The progressive movement in the American Muslim community thus kicked off one evening (fall of 2000) over Sheesha in a quaint little Lebanese café on Easton Ave in New Brunswick...."

Yassir, was it Evelyn's Cedar?

Wait, there was Evelyn's and then there was the Cedar, which was closer to Douglass campus

Re: # 2; tahmed sahib,(please don't take this personally; it is my way of addressing an issue I consider very important in this context).

In the UK, some people have spent all their adult lives there and some still can't speak more than a few words of English! Its disgraceful.

What you describe, in the context of first generation migrants, is a minority amongst a good 80% of Pakistanis in Britain who came in the 1960s. They live in these self-styled ghettos and it makes my blood boil when some have the audacity to blame all that on the country they live in!

Some Mirpuris have built "kothis" back home but live under appauling conditions in inner city areas. The difference between them and an equivalent Indian is very apparent. In recent surveys on tertiary institution representations of various ethnic groups, the Indians were 11% of the total intake, way above their white compatriots; Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were the lowest in the league. Other Muslim groups were pretty similar (only their populations are relatively small, though increasing).

Unfortunately, contrary to your previous assertions on the matter, it can't all be put down to the educational background of the parents (as they can be very similar in the two groups mentioned above) but religion plays a major part here. One can deny it 'til the cows come home but the reality is staringly obvious. Issues of "female sexuality" are the cause; they might learn something they weren't meant to etc! An interacter here highlighted this with a personal remark about me when I asked how they'd react if their own daughter would develop ideas contrary to their own....predictably the response I got was that a "kangaroo from down-underwear" couldn't possibly comprehend how "muslim girls" are supposed to be brought up! (taught WHAT TO THINK rather than HOW TO THINK!!).

As for Yasser's point about people from minority groups trying to get together because of common roots etc, that is a very valid point indeed. If I were to join a "muslim" group of one kind or another, the purpose is far from Islam itself..it is more to get together socially with people of similar ethnicities, share 'gup shup' and talk about similar cultural experiences from the past. Unfortunately in Britain the Pakistani identity is so intertwined with that of its religiousity, its not funny. A christian (Pakistani) friend of mine HAD to join a local christian group (majority white) that he had very little cultural commonality with, mainly because the only thing discussed in various Pakistani get-togethers was ...you got it...Islam.

Some so-called 'liberals' are those who would be happy (and eager!) enough to date girls from other backgrounds but would jealously protect the "honour" of their own sisters/daughters etc to do the same.....I am sure, if I have read you right, you may well fall into this category!! (please correct me if I am wrong here). You "immersed" yourself in something (God only knows what) and came up with this 'personal' version of Islam to satisfy your spiritual needs (nothing wrong with that)....because let's face it, the only reason you are "convinced" about the verasity of your "faith" is your 'introduction' and 'respect' for it taught in early years of life....and try as you may, you can't/won't relinquish that come what may.......even if you turned an atheist at heart, you'd find a valid explanation for it in the "good Book"!......what an implausibly flexible book that is!

Re: # 5

Cheema sahib, you did not read TAhmed’s narration carefully. You have to read his lines and you also have to read between his lines. Let me help you by reproducing his (rather cryptic) post with the “between-the-lines� part inserted within parentheses for your convenience!

From TAhmed:

When I came as a student and (was afraid nobody would hire me so I) thought I would go back after 2 years (plus maybe 3-4 more if I could stretch it into a Ph.D. program), I purposely immersed myself in the American community by joining a student coop (because I would have been otherwise too much of a chicken). And was rewarded (and I won’t tell you about the sex part (since Mrs. Tauheed is looking over my shoulders (hush!))) by quickly learning a lot of things (especially the things I am not going to tell you about because of understandable (wink) reasons) many Pakistanis never learn even after spending a lifetime in the US (but took me just one night!).

cheema sahib #5 nice to hear from you. what you say is largely valid. However, while agreeing with your basic point ("religion plays a major part (in muslims not mixing the local community)") I hasten to point out (as you would guess!!) that just saying this does not solve the problem.

Case in point: our own Mr. Masadi whose views on religion are reasonable and do not fall in the category of mullahism by any means, and yet is obsessed with portraying the US as being the problem behind everything, and not part of the solution.

So, while your theory may explain the "Mr. Urstruly Phenomenon" (which first struck to keep muslims backward at the time of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan) no doubt, could you please explain how your theory explain Mr. Masadi sir? He may be an extreme case, but "unlightened moderates" like him about (starting from Musharraf who cleverly painted the US as being the problem rather than trying to explain to Pakistanis the very real menace of al qaeda) abound in Paksitan.

#6 very funny, Kumar sahib. :-) That is not what I meant though.

Re: # 7; tahmed sahib

I should have included a 'disclaimer' I think! It wasn't so much a dig at YOU but all the so-called 'liberals' around within the Pakistani community......I don't know masadi sahib that well and quite frankly, apart from initially when I first joined up, don't read what he writes (and he is not the only one I don't read so again..not personal).

I don't think it is all black and white with the US; I don't agree with a lot of US policies but one way or the other, the answers to our problems would have to come from our own collective introspection.......blaming outsiders doesn't solve the problems that are rooted 'within'.

I don't see any condemnation on these boards of what went on (and is still going on) in Sudan; same as I don't see anything about the appauling way our Pakistani and Indian brethren are treated in the middle-east....I am talking about the labor class here. Because the perpetrators happen to be muslim?? or is there another reason.

When we talk about social evils in our societies, why is it that all (including yourself) start chanting ad-hominems about similar (or worse) events in the non-muslim world?

and before the Indians have any ideas, there is plenty I can say on that too......this seems to have become a forum where the citizens (and ex-citizens)of two third rate countries regain some individual self-esteem by digging up dirt at one another.

akcheema: I dont think my post makes it appear that what you wrote was a dig at me. Like I said, you make basically valid points, and I was merely directing your attention to a gap in what you wrote.

You talk about "blame". However, I am not talking about blame or applause for the US or the west. What I am talking about is learning from the west.

That is what progressive nations do - learn from one another. And progressive societies look for and appreciate positive things in other societies, rather than look for way to place blame or find fault. And that is what anyone living in a new country should be doing. That is what I am saying.

Re: # 10;tahmed sahib

fair enough.......point (re # 7 & 10) taken

dr sahib: on that note...have a g'day. as they say in australia. :-)

Re: # 12; tahmed sahib

is that a polite way of asking me to leave sir??

and g'day to you too!

Yet in the US and other western countries, the issue of Hijab is of fundamental importance.

umm..not it's not...not in the US..the US won't pass laws banning the hijab..that goes against the rights of the individual...if women are stopped from wearing the tent niqab, it's because of laws that were passed to prevent the KKK from marching in their white sheet garb..laws that prevent people from wearing clothing that conceals their face..

25% of young american muslims think suicide bombing is ok...yup...1 in 4..

and then there's this being taught in the saudi academy in fairfax..yes..fairfax as in dulles airport is here fairfax..

obviously you won't hear a peep about this from the supposedly liberal and moderate muslim ex-profs..

The academy - a 900-student private school with campuses in Alexandria and Fairfax - has been the subject of renewed scrutiny after an investigation by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom found that textbooks used in the school contained passages that blame Jews for "discord" and say it is sometimes permissible to kill non-Muslims.

The passages found in the review include a 12th-grade Koranic interpretation textbook that states it is permissible for a Muslim to kill those who have left the faith and one that says "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people."

cheema sahib: no sir, i was getting ready to call it a day. unlike australia, it is approaching midnight here. i just sent out an email, and am off to bed.

YLH,

besides your mysterious Gandhi fixation you have this

uncanny ability to convey the right message but to the

wrong people.

I must be getting bitter in my old age and all I can

add is "Don't waste your efforts".

Are you really talking about all American Muslims, or

just Muslims in America from Pakistan?

A very interesting bunch, I might add.


Ras

They will not listen....