Anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the Taliban Menace

he means to say, there are actually minorities in India of note. not a random traffic cop sardar...actually never mind..he is not a traffic cop no longer :)

#32 Eklavya

[Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.]

This is why I say that a lot of times, instead of using a clever choice of words to get your point across, you are actually being two-faced.

So tell me, WHY do you think that minorities are better treated in Pakiland as compared to India.

replying #32,

Eklawya,

You said:
[Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.]

Do you want to live in some Islamic land and check what growth opportunities and freedom you will get as a hindu without converting. Or may be check what you get after converting?

What else you need in India? You shuold live in Saudi Arabia and pay Jijia tax, or you should live in Pakistan and should get to know their muslim caste hierarchy and where you as hindu minority will be counted.

Who is in minority in India and what do they not get?

What the hell is this "disaffection and alienation", who is getting affection in India? In Pakistan nobody even used to count if remaning hindus were killed or raped, at least in India somebody counts them to some extent.

As per Islam there are no rights of minorities, all they can deserve is killing or slavery or if it helps Islam then probably living as second rated citizens. In India you can at least show your resentment openly, you can fight whatever way you want, in Islamic countries all you can do is suffer in silence.

Re: # 25

Zeemax thinks this is an excellent summation, he has his reasons, I see this as a deliberately crafted disinformation.

Posts such as these are designed to instigate action, action that will invite nothing but trouble for the poor masses of Pakistan, hasten the avoidable, provide the necessary groundwork for the ultimate catastrophe, decimation and then balkanization of Pakistan.

Globalization does not permit troubled states, particularly those with Nukes and crazies, there is much at stake here and benefactors of Pakistan are getting impatient.

“The recent killing of eleven Pakistani soldiers at Gora Prai by American and NATO forces across the border in Afghanistan unleashed an amazing storm[…] But had the killers been the Taliban, this would have been a non-event.�

This is just ridiculous! Dr. Hoodbhoy has been writing about political issues long enough to know the simple thing that any attack by a foreign force is always condemned, whereas an attack by internal fighters would not get the same attention. Despite the hue and cry in the newspapers, Pakistani foreign office had a hard time to get the US ambassador in the foreign Secretary’s office to lodge the complaint. The idiot FM Qureshi ran away. The Pak ambassador in DC wasn’t even prepared to condemn the whole thing. Expecting these people to protect the national interests, is little too much. The Pak army has taken on the role of Mir Jaffar. Dr. Hoodbhoy wants people to look at the menacing Taliban but the Taliban are in a small part of Pakistan. What people see daily is a parade of some of the most insipid characters leading the country. The President defies resentment and to stay in the office he begs the US to make some phone calls on his behalf.

Common folks don’t see the finer points that Dr. Hoodbhoy is advocating. They see what is in front of their eyes. When they see a government, an army, and a President mooning the whole country for their petty interests, even criminals fighting the traitors in power, become heroes.

The Indian History would bear me out. Not only the Indian, but Dr. Hoodbhoy can learn this lesson from the world history. The Thugs in India became part of the folk lore because people perceived them to be defying the state by their criminal activities. In South America many criminal gangs became the anti establishment heroes. We are watching the same phenomenon in Pakistan. People don’t support the Taliban, they support the defiance, and they support any action that is against the criminals controlling the state.

A minor incident like the PMLn support of 29 judges in a petty finance bill brought the public condemnation and the PMLn scrambled to control the damage. When the public sentiments against the establishment reach the level that it is now in Pakistan, anyone defying the state with arms would be become a hero.

A thoroughly foreign financed politician Nawaz has tapped on the same sentiments. He has become the official opposition because at this time the establishment can only trust its own to lead the opposition and control the resentment. While Zardari is helping the establishment now, Nawaz would take over this mantle after him. The Lawyers movement was getting out of hands but that too is now controlled. Pakistan’s epic battle is not with Taliban, it is with the establishment or the army, and instead of accepting defeat the army would balkanize the country. That is the danger. Taliban and Islamists are a bunch of petty criminals and people are beginning to figure that out too.

Re: # 24

supersize,

.... you sound like one of those crazy immigrant women in nadeem aslam's "map for lost lovers" ....... you still seem to be living in morbid fear of being adopted by white people who will make you eat pork, drink alcohol and not wash your butt after you go to the bathroom ....... trust me, toilet paper will not kill you ..... you need to have your djinns exorcised by a mullah from multan ......

Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.

The situation of minorities in India is sad, with rampant and deep disaffection and alienation. Unfortunately, in this drumbeat of oppressive 'democracy', you don't hear of it much, until some Indian Muslim is able to get the word out. We need to ask ourselves: Who would like to live in a place where religious riots are commonplace and nazis win elections and hold power?

On riots, here is something interesting from Dr Ansari of AMU:

http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/28/op.htm

--------------

So any 'discomfiture' for minorities in an Islamic system would be trivial. It would be decidedly better, fairer and more just, than living as minorities in other systems, Indian one, most certainly.

AdamKhan #28 very good post. I agree with 1Safe - mullahs who opposed Pakistan are now first in line to demand to rule over Pakistan by claiming what supersize me writes (i.e. that Pakistan was created for the impostiion of "laws" defined by mullahs, i.e. sharia laws).

Even if Jinnah had opposed Pakistan and Maudoodi had called for Pakistan, even then there would be no justification for making Pakistan a theocracy. Or if someone thinks that the people of Pakistan really are eager to be ruled by mullahs - generally considered the scum of Pakistani society - then they should call for a referendum where mullahs dont hide behind their hypoocrisy of "sharia laws" and make the implication clear - i.e. that sharia laws mean that mullahs create laws, mullahs interpret laws, mullahs implement laws. And who are these mullahs? unemployable men who have grown beards to make a living!

#24 SupersizeMe writes 'pakistan is in fact an 'islamic republic', it was created for muslims, 97% of it's inhabitants are muslim, the majority of us, we wish for the country to operate sharia law and other such laws and systems, is that necessarily a bad thing?

granted we have minorities which may feel a tad 'discomforted' by this, but actual islamic law ensures that such minorities should be treated with equal dignity'

Then this: 'the basics of islamic law are actually much kinder on minorities if you'd actually research them, m. a. jinnah's speeches also declared equality towards these minorities.'

I am hoping you are not implying that Quaid wanted a theocracy. The name Islamic Republic of Pakistan was not given by Quaid, it came much later. He did not want to give minorities sadqaat aur khairaat, he was convinced of equality as per secular convictions.

adamkhan, your post to eklavya, while good intentioned, will never hit the mark. Our brother kaal is like a virtual animal lashing out against the reality of overpowering stimuli breaking down his defenses.

He is a goner...a rhetorical being...a denizen of lalaland..like the black kniight in Monty Python's holy grail...in his case, with his intellectual limbs shredded by reality and logic, he feigns victory for simply having been on the battleground. a purely islamist trait. :)

The tragedy of Pakistan is not that the demons-let-loose-from-hell, as hoodbhoy portrays them are about to take over Pakistan, but the tragedy is how well-educated people like hoodbhoy defend this status quo of the rule of demons that are already devouring Pakistan. Hoodbhoy considers this system, which feeds on the blood of citizens of Pakistan, worth defending?? laholwila quwat. He is asking people of pakistan to stand up and defend the sorry assess of pathetic excuse for humanity like fouj, pirs, feudals, 10%s, and 100%s from getting exterminated?? If I were hoodbhoy, I would take Ras's advice below and set my priorities straight while I still have the time. This system of injustice, corruption, and inefficiency is about to fall victim to the law of natural selection. Why hoodbhoy is siding with those who are destined to be loosers?

#25 Posted by pavocavalry,

Excellent summation. Ironic in a sense that the Little Red Riding Hoods will still believe only things as they want to see it, and not as they are. That's why I call them Frogs in warm water who will only know there was a fire underneath when it comes to a boil and kills them.

Interestingly, I spoke with a Khan of Charsadda from a very prominent landed political family who said they have no problem with Taliban because they are not criminals - but the Mangal Bagh group is basically the narco-mafia of Khyber Agency manned by abductors for ransom and hired assassins of the famed Khyber Agency's 'Ilaqa Ghair', propped up by the intelligence agencies as a buffer to Taliban making advances into Khyber Agency. This seems to confirm my earlier suspicions but questions remain.

Eklavya:

Peshawar would be harmed if there is a ban on the education of women, public amputations, stoning people to death, ban on television and internet etc. and these would be done by ignorant fools who wouldn't be considering it as harmful.

As for professor hoodbhoy, well read up a bit on him, he has never been in "power" as you mentioned in ur post. This guy saved Quaid i Azam university (QAU) Islamabad from being turned into a housing colony for teachers. In doing so he gave up his own right to have a plot at the foot of Margalla hills in Islamabad (would have been worth a few crores today). unlike many of his critics on this board he prefers to stay in Pakistan.

I was a student at the QAU in those days and was amazed at the blatant greed shown by many of our professors, especially the ones who were regulars at the campus mosque.

Dont believe everything that the jihadis spew on this website... most of these english speaking pompom jihadis are in western countries... they have no idea of the realities in Pakistan... and neither do they care.

RAVI RIKHYE ON ISLAMISATION IN PAKISTAN

More Headache Inducing News From Pakistan's NWFP This is one of those days when your editor feels he is living on Pluto for all that he knows what is happening on Earth, which seems to be about nil. We have often complained about the paucity of our sources. With the commercial part of Orbat.com on life support we have lost approximately 80 of our correspondents and almost all of our network. We had several people in Pakistan - five to be be precise - and now we have zero. It's sad that whereas we know how to get information but have no money, mainstream media which has money seldom knows how to get cost-effective news. For what a western media agency pays to keep one person in Pakistan, we could give you original, up-to-date news on about 60% of the world.

Anyway, enough self-pity. Media says Pakistan Frontier Corps has attacked Pakistan Taliban positions around Peshawar. According to International Herald Tribune the Frontier Corps commander says the operation was launched because people were demanding the government do something, and right there you can see how pathetic is the whole scene. Why do you have to wait till the public demands you do your job before you do your job? Has the Pakistan government really become that ineffective in Peshawar, which is a major Pakistan city and the capital of the NWFP?

Apparently the answer is "yes". We knew the Pakistani Taliban was closing in on Peshawar; we had no clue it has already closed in on Peshawar. We thought this development was two years away. So you can understand why your editor is weeping and moaning about not knowing a thing.

Background: there is a gent who in the last three years has built up a force of several thousand fighters and has taken over so much of Peshawar's surrounding areas that the government has ceased to function. He is allied with another gent, a foreigner, who has a force of unknown size composed of foreign fighters who keep busy attacking the US/partners. The other day the first gent raided the city itself, kidnapped 16 Christians, later released after negotiations. Read $$$$. so the city's inhabitants are understandably feeling insecure.

Okay, so lets put all that aside and go behind the scenes. Point The First: The last three years happens to coincide with the period the Taliban have rebuilt themselves and taken over large parts of Afghanistan. It also coincides with the period Taliban has openly taken over much of NWFP.

Point The Second The garrison city of Peshawar is home to HQ XI Corps, which controls about 60-70,000 troops in the NWFP. We do not know the exact position right now, but when the Pakistan government was supposed to be fighting the insurgents, the Corps had 14 brigades - its own and from other Pakistani corps. Now some of those brigades are in the process of going back to their cantonments because of the peace deal.

Is it not a bit odd that the Taliban now have a choke hold on Peshawar, which is hardly short of troops? What have the troops been doing all this time? And why are they STILL not taking the offensive against Taliban, if for no other reason than which army wants ~5 divisions worth of troops rendered ineffective in their home province?

Pakistan Frontier Corps has been repeatedly defeated in battle by Pakistan Taliban. Please understand this is not a case where the FC has fought and been defeated. The FC has refused to fight. It is officered by regulars from the Pakistan Army, who happen to be overwhelmingly Punjabi. We are willing to bet that when the FC has fought, it is because the men have not dared defy their officers. So understandably, it has made of a show than a real fight. FC doesnt want to fight because it does not see what wrong the Taliban are committing. The Talibs are their brothers - this is not a figure of speech - and the Taliban simply represent majority thinking in the very conservative NWFP. The NWFP folk like neither the Pakistan Government, nor modernization, and they absolutely, completely, utterly hate America. So why should FC fight america's war, especially when the high professional Pakistan Army is increasingly refusing to fight America's war.

Point The Third IHT quotes a state ruling party member (the party is moderate) as saying he believes the Taliban group around Peshawar has been created by Pakistan ISI.

You can take it that any Pakistan group fighting in Afghanistan is ISI. The original Taliban were ISI and so are the new Taliban.

Now we come to Point 4 and this is the part that is seriously disturbing us - but not surprising us. We want you to hold on to your chair because you are going to fall off. Before you hold on to your chair, we'd like to explain something. US likes to pretend that ISI is some kind of independent power in Pakistan and that parts of it are rogue. Please understand that the the ISI is no independent power. It 100% represents the Pakistan Army and to a lesser extent the other services. There are NO rogue elements worth mention in the ISI: almost everything it does is sanctioned by the army's commanders.

This does not mean there are no factions jockeying to advance the power of this general or that general. These are internal disagreements and of no relevance to outsiders. With that in mind:

On information received very recently by your editor (okay, so he is not totally out of it): The Pakistan Army has decided the Islamization of Pakistan will proceed.

Pakistan is already a theocratic state, but it has generally been fairly moderate compared to our Best Friends Forever the Saudis, fairly live and let live. We know our Pakistan readers are going to scoff and say "the Islamization of Pakistan has been going on for 40 years, so what do you mean by "fairly moderate". But a trend can start at one time and take decades to become overwhelming.

But now the Pakistan military has decided its time to go the whole hog. If we go into why, we'll never get this article done. Suffice to say that (a) Pakistan as a nation was a traumatized at the outcome of Partition in 1947-48 (b) it had a breakdown after losing East Pakistan in 1971; and (c) the American intervention in Afghanistan/Pakistan has completed the process. In brief, the Pakistanis are saying clear and loud "we will not be pushed around any more, least of by the US". For a variety of complicated reasons, they see neccessary to redefine their identity, this time as Islamists.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! will say our friends on State's Pakistan desk. You are jumping the gun: trends are there but by no means is what you are saying inevitable. You are wildly exaggerating.

Okay, first lets admit we no longer have any friends in any American government body. We are lying about friends at State, we have no friends anywhere, of any kind.

Second, lets go back to what we say many a time. US to this day talks to those Pakistanis who they can talk to. These are not authentic Pakistanis, they represent an intelligent, widely-read and traveled semi-secular, and humanistic lot who are a tiny, tiny minority in Pakistan. We are not blaming the US, there are all sorts of reasons 99% of countries get things wrong.

We cant go into details, but "our" Pakistani are authentic and you can believe us or not, but we can assure you that the balance between Islamists and non-Islamists in the Pakistan Army has decisively, perhaps irrevocably tipped in favor of the Islamists. (Yes, yes, we know the balance has been tipped for a long time, but unless our readers stop intervening in this debate for now, we'll never get done.) What we are trying to say that what was previously kept hidden in the last eight years for fear of America is gradually coming into the open, though the Pakistanis are still scared of America.

We told you about signals we are picking up that Pakistan is preparing to take its new war against India to the next level; it has already done that in Afghanistan. You can disbelieve us, but you cant disbelieve what your own government is telling you about Pakistan's new intervention in Afghanistan. Talk to any Indian intelligence officer and he will say what we are about Pakistan and India. The war has been on for some years, we have been talking about the next level, this really is not a topic that causes much disagreement in India.

Similarly, you can say that we are exaggerating about the big wave of Islamization that is going to hit Pakistan. But remember: when it hits, we told you first.

well written article hoodbhoy, i must say though taliban is a by-product of america's imperialistic war, it's their baby and pakistan's citizens and army are paying a high price for it.

pakistan is in fact an 'islamic republic', it was created for muslims, 97% of it's inhabitants are muslim, the majority of us, we wish for the country to operate sharia law and other such laws and systems, is that necessarily a bad thing?

granted we have minorities which may feel a tad 'discomforted' by this, but actual islamic law ensures that such minorities should be treated with equal dignity, (and i am horrified when i hear tales of prejuidice and abuse towards these minorities, from a personal note; i'm very sorry!).

the basics of islamic law are actually much kinder on minorities if you'd actually research them, m. a. jinnah's speeches also declared equality towards these minorities.

if a few people are pushing towards secularism, thats their personal right but up against the majority of muslims i dont think that will actually happen too soon. i dont blame them for getting all disillusioned about islamic law when the wrong people abuse their status, but really guys, you're focusing all your angst in the wrong freakin direction!!

Re: # 22

Zee Sahib

Message is very clear from your posts, that the Talibs are here and its a matter of time before they send the "Kanjaroon" borrowing your euphuism to the guillotines.

By the way, I share the same view as yours, barbarians are at the gates and in no hurry to enter. They have learnt their lesson well in Kabul, they are not going to repeat the same.