Anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the Taliban Menace

Here's a tale of two Pakistani self-haters and defeatists who enjoy every moment of hating themselves and their country: Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy and Asma Jahangir.
Whenever there is a writing project in any newspaper anywhere in the world where they want to bash Pakistan using a Pakistani name, they call one man in Islamabad: Dr. Hoodbhoy. He spews more venom against Pakistan than Hamid Karzai and Bal Thackery - an Indian Hindu terrorist - combined.
Asma Jahangir, another defeatist who went to India to shake the hands of Narendar Modi, the killer of 2500 Indian Muslims, has just volunteered to Hindustan Times to confirm that Mumbai terror was a Pakistani conspiracy [see below].
Here's a letter sent by a Pakistani young man to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani self-hater, and received no reply. And then watch Asma Jahangir's video.
Recommendation: We need to start a witch-hunt in Pakistan to cleanse our academia and public life of such self-haters and defeatists who poison the minds of young Pakistanis about their homeland. Such academics and human rights activists should not be allowed to hide behind the freedom of expression.
TO: Dr. Pervaiz A. Hoodbhoy
Professor and Chairman
Physic Department
Quaid-e-Azam University,
Islamabad.
E-mail: hoodb...@lns.mit.edu

NATION WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Dear Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy Sahib,

I have been reading your articles and research reports and watching your interviews on different TV channels on different issues. I have tried to go through your articles again and again to satisfy myself that whatsoever you are speaking in the name of freedom of speech is just an ordinary criticism and could be a difference of opinion.
But I regret to say that I am unable to do so. In dozens of your articles and interviews you have never ever said a single positive thing about Pakistan and have always tried to portray a false picture of Pakistan, according to which Pakistan is a failed state. Whether it's the issue of extremism, or Pakistan's nuclear assets, or Pak-India relations, or if there is an issue of western and Indian allegations, you have always come up with your nasty ideas to prove to the world community that whatever the enemies of Pakistan are saying, you are more than happy to say it from them, using a Pakistani identity, which is an act for which you feel no shame.

I am not sure if Pakistanis have seen your massive one-man campaign against Pakistan where you have alleged that we are not capable of retaining our nuclear assets. Or, now, after the Mumbai attacks, when even the cheapest of Pakistani politicians have shown some kind of patriotism and unity for the sake of Pakistan, at this crucial time again you are trying to prove what the enemies of Pakistan are trying to do. I fail to understand what motivates you except gaining popularity in West or even in India.

India is a so-called democracy where low caste Hindus, Christians and Muslims are burned alive [a ritual unique to India, doesn't happen anywhere else], where Hindu extremists are in the government, where groups like Bajrang Dal are trained in Indian Army schools. But India seems like Switzerland after reading one of your articles on India, especially the one you wrote recently after a visit to India. India's terrorist and rogue intelligence agency, RAW, which is funding and supporting separatist movements in our tribal belt and in Balochistan, continues to be an untouchable issue for you. What really is important for you is to put all your efforts toward portraying a negative Pakistan.

I give you an example from the history which you will find self explanatory in reference to our current scenario.

I am not sure if our enemies will impose a war on Pakistan or not but at this crucial stage all your efforts to distort Pakistan's image is not going to remain unnoticed and the nation will never forgive you for what you have done.

Wassalam.

Waqas Ahmed
Muscat, Sultanate of Oman

Foreign elements are involved in the acts of recent terrorism and suicide attacks in the country and were actively supported by corrupt ruling mafia backed by imperialist neo-cons. Indian spies and Intelligence agencies are also exploiting the situation in the garb of Taliban, and damaging the country on behalf of Israel/US/India nexus. Real and genuine Taliban feel grief and sorrow over the death of common Muslims. Generally speaking, there are three types of Taliban in Federally Administrative Tribal Areas.
First type of Taliban are those resisting US imperialist agendas and want to expel US from Afghanistan. These Taliban though do not have any agenda about Pakistan. The second type, are the local Taliban, they want to implement Islamic system and Shariah in their own areas. These elements are active in one form or other form in Tribal area especially Swat before 9/11 and even before Soviet Afghan War. Swat was a small independent state which opted for Pakistan, at the time of partition, on guarantee of independent state from Mr. Jinnah. The state was governed by Shariah law. Swat state laws and governance was a natural, efficient and effective law which suited local tradition and Pathan culture. Justice was quick, simple and cheap. The British justice system practiced in Pakistan is based colonial state structure. It has long and unending proceedings, spread over years and even then there is no guarantee that the justice would be provided to the victim, due to culture of false witnesses, clever/fake lawyers and obliging judges. The Pashtuns were basically nomads and during 18th they started living in small villages. If someone from their family is offended by someone and they do not have remedy for that injustice, the family remains under social pressure/stress and feel a great shame. Under the British system, they see the oppressor and his relatives everywhere in the village and feel ashamed for not having natural remedy.
Normally it is considered that Taliban are remnants of Soviet Afghan Mujahadeen. However Shariah demand and Taliban movement date back to Bhutto regime in seventies when Swat state was annexed to Pakistan contrary to Jinnah commitment to Wal-e-Swat. Prior to that, Swat state was very developed till 70s and had very efficient and effective local administration, Qazi courts and Police System under patronage of Wali-e-Swat based on local tradition and mostly Shariah laws. Earlier Qazi Courts, local administration and police was replaced by existing corrupt Pakistani Police, inefficient/ineffective civil bureaucracy (DCs/ACs) and normal court system, which are colonial legacies and skewed state structure designed for colonial brute regimes. Their movement was hijacked/exploited by Zia-ul-Haq on his false promises of Shariah based Government for his eleven year draconian rule on US backing. Similarly many other uprising for change (namely labor and student movement) against colonial state structure and establishment were crushed and exploited by the agents of status-qou and colonial remnants in Pakistan ruling establishment.
The third group of Taliban are those who formed an organized group to achieve their vested criminal interests mainly drug trade on backing of local totalitarian ruling elite, various foreign Intelligence agencies and imperialist neo-cons. Their objectives are loot/plunder masses for their own kitty, while at the same time they will defame/malign and make controversial the cause/name of Taliban who are resisting imperialist neo-cons in Afghanistan and colonial remnants in Pakistan. They use various tools of terror, violence and disinformation. These elements have nothing to do with Islam or Taliban and they are simply using the name of Taliban. US and India trained them in Khurasan and Hirat provinces of Afghanistan. These trained elements were injected into tribal areas of Pakistan in order to spread chaos and crisis. Chaos and crisis is one of the reason due to which President Musharraf justified his clinging to Power. These foreign elements in the garb of Taliban are involved in the acts of terrorism in different cities of Pakistan like Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi. Their violence and chaos justifies excessive use of fire power by state agencies for various incidents like Red mosque, Nov-03 and May-12. Their acts of violence also hijack various peace initiates, therefore whenever there will be a peace talks, either US will directly attack or some suicide bomber will hit inside Pakistan on the name of Taliban or Pakistani Ambassador issue will pop out.
Generally speaking real Taliban are crude and have various short coming, however misdoings of Taliban have been blown out of proportion by imperialist western backed media. But over all they were much better than present day US/West Puppets in Afghanistan and similar other prostitute states/governments ruled by puppets of the West/US. Taliban were from the people and they were answerable to people. Their roots were in the people of that area, therefore there could stand up against alone super power of world, whereas Pakistan being a nuclear state has been subjugated by US for last eight years. Their police system, justice, law/order systems were simple, straight forward and it was delivering to the common. It is very ironic that media and academics become so much idealistic when they deal with Taliban? Like any other system Taliban also had short comings. However normal Pakistan Police, courts and law order system is totally corrupt, highly inefficient and ineffective. Media and academic will tolerate 1001 errors in present skewed setups based on colonial draconian legacy and justify present setup full of corruption by corruption for corruption. Present setup is 90 % corrupt name any institution, any walk of life.
Just like present setup Taliban had some shortcoming and they can rectify that if they are guided and given time. Taliban are much better if compared with present corrupt Police, Bureaucrats, Executives and Courts of Pakistan. Yes at some points Taliban were wrong and they need to be rectified and criticized. After past 50 years one has to admit that present colonial state structure is incapable of rectification. We can tolerate/justify 50 years wrong doings of one system but can’t tolerate indigenous effort for nation building due to their stupidity.

Skirmish of Wazir/Mehsud/Burki Tribes against British Army in enlightened and civilized colonial era Tribes were mostly led by Faqir Appi, who was Wazir. Syeds (Mullahs) in Wana were instrumental for wheeling/dealing and keeping Wazirs, Mehsudes, and Burkis united, intact and motivated against British. An ordinary Pathans has to consider himself the best therefore he would not allow anyone else to lead him even if he is Pathan. Though Pathan does not have Piri/Murdi or Feudalisms like rest of Indo-Pak particularly Sindh/Punjab because they were never Part/Parcel of enlightened and civilized British Royal India. Nonetheless they respect/regard only Syeds after themselves in the whole universe.
Few clans from Syeds, Wazir, Burkis and Mehsud, being weak hearted could not face the heat, so therefore quietly came down and opted for enjoying the peace and cool life in adjoining area of Bannu, DI Khan, Lucky Marvat and Mianwali. These fleeing clans were welcomed by British. Presently mostly from these fleeing clans are well settled and have average education and some power in Pakistan. Those in hill always look down and still taunt their cousins for their forefathers rent seeking behavior. As a return those fleeing clans of Wazir, Mehsud and Syeds like rest of Pakistanis (especially Husain Haqani) consider those in hills backward, evil, uncultured, uncivilized, terrorist and considers themselves enlighten, modern and forward looking.
Those freedom living tribes are still bearing US/Western Defacto-Colonialism with help of local Establishment. These tribes does not understand that resistance against might, struggle for truth is obsolete as it does not pay any more in this land of pure cartels. By the way, what good Faqir Eppi did by fighting against our colonial masters if compared with collaborators and middle men who still rule and control our fate, I mean Establishment. Generally it is considered that it is feudal class who collaborated with Colonials for exploitation/deprivation and they are main beneficiaries of that era till today. There is true to some extent, however it is a smoke screen to cover various other cartels, mafias and other brute forms of feudalism. Feudalism is rampant in every walk of life of Pakistan. Do not you think a DCO till recently lived/acted like a royal feudal? What about SP, he seems to be Generation Next Feudal. Big dirty fishes of Pakistan i.e. 50-60 Business mafias/cartels controlling II Chundrigar Road and Mall Roads (mostly beneficiaries/ blue eyed of East India Company) are also feudal in nature. As a simple example just Google the reason for vast fortune of Agha Khan. So called poor class political parties like MQM also rely on feudal violent tools for exploitation and deprivation. Do not you think well-heeled acolytes university professors are not feudals. Go and see their dirty politics and leg pulling which they do for petty gains. I have never been impressed by Deeni Madrasha/Mullah but what about clerk cloning Macaulay’s plants (Western Universities/College) in name of education, enlightenment and progress. I leave rest all such white collars feudal to your imagination in every sphere of life.
Most of the tribal clans coming down to settled area were naïve and not smart, and intelligent like Saifullah Family fore fathers. Saifullah father Faizullah was shepherd, however he sided with Colonial Royal Army against Waziri/Mehsud/Burki tribes in Wana/Meran Shah. Saifullah Marvat and his father was first Muslim League in Lucky Marvat area since 1930s. Aslam Khatak (Brrother in-law of Saifullah) was also among first Muslim League in adjacent Karak District since 1930. He along with Chaudery Rahmat Ali while in Cambridge on British Royal Scholarship. They coined the name of Pakistan. Aslam Khatak and his family main services for British Royal Army were against Ajab Khan Afridi (Dara Adam Khel). Gen Ali Quli Khan (Musharaf competitor for CAS back in 1997) is nephew of Aslam Khatak and one of his brother in law was Governor. Saifullah family share a vast fortune of more than 25 concerns like Lucky Cement, Mob link, General Tires, Nissan Ghandraha etc. It is such irony that most of the Army/Air Force units which are fighting now in Meran Shah, Wana and other tribal areas have also fought with same tribes/clans till 1947. Another big irony India is fighting in held Kashmir for last 30 years and how many times they have used Jet Fighters for bombing Kashmiris. Azad Kashmir held today by Pakistan was not liberated by Pak Army and Air force rather liberated by same clans/tribes who are sometimes labeled as Taliban, uncivilized, dirty Naswar eating Pathans, and according to Nadeem Paracha (The Dawn Writer/Aaj TV anchor) a pseudo-intellectual think that in north/tribal area no woman live and only men/goats live.
Some time I feel crippled when I think about my Identity. When I am unable to read my mother language and unable to related to my profound history which has been made irrelevant and meager. I can hear this history in local songs and it is off course trouble some for local establishment (various economic/political/feudal/bureaucratic cartels controlling II Chundrigar Road, Mall Roads and Constitution avenue) but also international establishment (Jews/Zionist/US/UK). Though we will not find any consensus on the definition/causes of terrorism but there is 101 % agreement on ethnic cleansing of all those who in one way or other resisted colonial five/six decades ago or still think of resisting neo-colonialism or their imposed local cartels of business/politics/bureaucracy/identity. In Pakistan, in every walk of life those people are in control, whose forefathers in one or other way helped British or East India Compnay. Rest all are masses, they does not count anywhere. While for last fifty we are crushing those people who were/are against local and international establishment or show any such inclinations.
In defacto-colonial society like Pakistan most of roles are supposed to be clerk type, which are boring, insignificant and monotonous. These roles/opportunities are never impressive. With passage of time procedures policies and work practices have become obsolete, are against simple rational and mostly based on mistrust, difficult to extent where pity/ordinary jobs are accomplished with huge wastage of time, money, manpower and resources. The biggest motivation in life is work and trust, however most of the time, our productive work pace is dead slow and unrealistic. Pakistan was supposed to continue inherited colonial state structure. Therefore middle/lower classes in general and poor most in particular are exploited and deprived at multiple levels on pretext of various merits, standards, ethics and unseen Berlin walls erected by our colonial masters. Our pre-1947 pseudo freedom fighters and so called god fathers did not have vision, capacity or planning for these issues. Muslim league was Sarkari League from the first day of its origin. The main objective was to create faithfulness among Indopak Muslim for British Royal Establishment. Similarly ANP and Congress at that time were preaching non-violence meaning that you do not fight against British Raaj. We were/are victim of the LAW OF NECESSITY even before our birth. This so called politics/democracy/voting is for fooling the Masses. It does not implies that Gen Mush, Zia, Ayub are better than Zardari, Nawaz, BB and other stuff. They all are pawns among thousands pawns controlling whole Muslim world for the their Western Masters.
Unquestioned and unconditioned subordination is expected in every walk of life Due to same colonial traditions. While all corrupts (various economic/political/feudal/bureaucratic cartels controlling II Chundrigar Road, Mall Roads Lhr/R-Pindi/Pesh/Queta and Constitution Avenue) will enjoy, control and set the rules of games. They will exploit masses in name of democracy, identity, merit, logic and history. Crippled honest masses will be expected to be a tiger, who will able to bear rotten system for whole life, dodge the corrupts and avoid all temptation against all natural forces. The only way to survive is absolute conformist behavior, and any deviation/difference on any issue/crisis/identity is not tolerated. Most of our state rules/laws/ traditions/norms are decades old and date back to colonial era therefore mostly irrelevant and inapplicable. As a result middle and lower classes in general and poor most in particular are manipulated according to corrupts (various economic/political/feudal/bureaucratic cartels controlling II Chundrigar Road, Mall Roads Lhr/R-Pindi/Pesh/ Queta and Constitution Avenue) politics, whims, goals, personal agenda and likes/dislikes. Wrong practices are justified by these corrupts by other wrong practices. Our colonial social set up expect/support/ promote only conformist roles. Role redesign opportunities or change in such colonial societies like Pakistan are limited by design. The narrow range and depth of social roles does not have any space for innovation or change. For past 60 years, it is not coincidences or masses errors that every time we have laid flat in front of US or West.
Shahzeb Khan English Lecture in GC University in one of his article writes about the same in DAWN that “Few of us know that tens of thousands of British officials were denied reappointment in their home country once India and Pakistan won independence in 1947. They were not terminated but were disallowed to work because they were considered unfit to work in a free and democratic country. The context of colonisation influenced working habits of these officials while they were in India. These officials considered themselves part of the metropolis and that they were there only to govern the subjects of the colony. This notion was accompanied with a set of ‘skills’ which these officials were supposed to internalise. After they arrived in India, they were indoctrinated with the ideas of 'superiority' and ‘inferiority’ of Indians they were supposed to govern. “
Any rational and thinking animal in such colonial society, will consider honest/sincere growth/existence in Pakistan, out of context, irrelevant and wasteful not only for honest/sincere and his family but Pakistan also does not need such people. Only Idiots and super idiots thrive, who are well connected and fattest. If any honest continue to live in Pakistan as honest/sincere, he lead boring, static, hypocritical life and this feeling constantly pinches him like wearing a shoe of small size than his foot. On other hand, if he leaves for abroad, he start from zero and have to work really hard for his existence some where else as second grade citizen without any noble IDENTITY. At this juncture in our national life, we Pakistani have to redefine our original identity based in Islam and Land (Punjabi/ Sindhi/Balochi/Pashtoo), which will burgeon our potentials and endow our faculties for more exacting. We have to shed our colonial identity (insecure and fragile) imposed on us. We should undertake a fresh challenge, an IDENTITY -altering venture that allow us to paint the happenings and experiences of our existence and our dreams on a broader canvass. I rest our IDENTITY dilemma for your kind comments, expert advice and candid opinion. I can bear facts without sugar coating.

Thank you and best regards.
FM Shah

the psycho-social makeup of society is very much disturbed,especially in the rural areas.in the urban areas things are not going that well either.people are politically confused, they are disappointed and frustration seems to be closing upon the whole populace.all the more reason why the urbans would set their own house in order as far as education is concerned.
on the top we have HEC and its encouragement for research, at the bottom we have the school dropouts.valuing human resource ought to be done from the bottom level.the government’s chief role ought to be to see that schools form their own groups who concentrate on drop-out issues.if the reason is financial, or non-availability of transport, textbooks, uniforms, and so on,the government and the school groups should work together and help the affected school children.
then these school groups, especially in the public SECTOR schools should keep student’ s perfrormance always in the forefront of their agenda.they must see which students are WILLING to study,this is a most important criterion.next a range must be established, in which they should start out from an average student who has never failed, to good students and finally excellent students.these students should NEVER be lost sight of.they should be made to perform from good to better and sky is the limit.they should be helped out financially.scholarships must be easily available, but only for the excellent students-if more and more students are encouraged to get distinctions in their papers, they all should get scholarships.the National internship program is good, and students from pre-matric section must be included, trained and given stipend.later they could be selected as paid research workers for any of hec research activities or projects.boosters at Ba, Ma, BSc and M.phil levels must be provided, till these students reach PhD level safely.Medical education should be given a separate and special fillip.URDU medium good students ought to be given the opportunity to study comprehensive english, through a free course, and they should be given the opportunity equally to their english lingo counterparts.
needless to say the school groups should keep in view the schoolmasters, who have put in a long servis, are devoted, teach well, the students love them and love to attend their classes, the students understand their lectures and easily remember them.these teachers are broadminded, they encourage students to read other books as well,browse the internet for knowledge, and do not fly into a rage when the student tries to explain the lesson in his own words.such teachers must be honored, celeberated, rewarded and decorated at national level.they should be given paid leave and opportunity to complete their Ma or phd even.their retirement plans should be solid, and they should retire with a handsomepension.they must be given bonuses, health insurance and lots of endowments.during their servis they should be given lots of opportunities to join as a senior research worker in hec’ s any ongoing research projects.
good and stable education is needed to remove ‘’superstition’’ from religion.good educated persons are forces on the good side and are necessary for a nation’ s survival, in the face of gross rumor mongering and killing of innocents.

Re: # 97 Tooth 100
"H5agfPzUr7y0Ls Us4zrebZ5d4y8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result)& amp; quot;

Look, this looks nasty don't abuse me under the garb of a web address....

Re: # 95 tahir,
http://books.google.com/books?id=gVwBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA2 38&dq=ramushi+caste&source=web&ots=8XDpZIVz4q&sig=H5agfPzUr7y0Ls Us4zrebZ5d4y8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

#86 Posted by Kamath on July 3, 2008 7:04:20 pm

hey pal...this ain't traffic problems in pakiland we're talking about..

People would "leave them alone" if they weren't going around the world blowing stuff up...

Re: # 91 truth
"You sound like that memsahab in the googlebook"

Which mem-sahib? And what does SHE say that resembles my comments here?

:)

Re: # 92 Kamath

It is good to see that you don't believe in 'malicious joy'!

Coca Cola, enjoy!

the author says: "To the Americans, Pakistan is an instrument to be used for their strategic ends." His flawed argument, typical of recent Pakistani liberal scare tactics, is that the threat of impending Talibanization trumps all other threats including the threat of US manipulation or occupation. Forget that Talibanization of the whole country is MUCH more unlikely than Pakistan becoming another Afghanistan or Iraq if we give the US carte blanche to do whatever it wants as the author seems to be suggesting.

The reason why there was so much outrage over the death of the FC soldiers was because it was such an ominous signal of things to come -- see also in yesterday's Dawn, remarks by Admiral Mike Mullen: "“I’m comfortable, as the military leader, that I have all the authorities I need,� said Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, when asked if he had the authority to target key terrorist leaders hiding in Fata."

Re: # 90 Tahir old Boy:
Yes, I meant precisely,".... LEAVE THEM TO SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS (and not as in LEAVE THEM TO ROT..." I do not believe in Schadenfreude. All human being including Pakistanis -deserve a better, free, peaceful, and civillized life free of hunger, fear, etc. etc

Kamath.

Tahir, You sound like that memsahab in the googlebook.

Re: # 86 Kammy

"LEAVE THEM ALONE."

I hope by this you mean LEAVE THEM TO SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS (and not as in LEAVE THEM TO ROT)?

Regards

Re: # 88 Hundred
"Tahir after reading your few posts, it seems you are two centuries behind."

Please explain in what sense and behind which chosen race?

"Hope you take this comment in +ve spirit. "

Of course, I'm always positive!

Does truth have a number like you do, or are you the kind of Truth ("I am THE Truth) proclaimed by Mansur Hallaj?

I hope you love this comment.

Regards.

Tahir after reading your few posts, it seems you are two centuries behind. Hope you take this comment in +ve spirit.

It seems Pakistanis are still in religiosity of 1820s. Read this gogle book how one British memsahab talked and viewed at the natives.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gVwBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA2 38&dq=ramushi+caste&source=web&ots=8XDpZIVz4q&sig=H5agfPzUr7y0Ls Us4zrebZ5d4y8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

Tahir looking at your fe posts it seems you two centuries behind. Hope you take this comment in +ve spirit.

I think future and destiny of Pakistan should be left to Pakistanis themselves. After all they have come a long way after 60 years into a nation by their own efforts. They have handled their problems and now they can lick Talibani problem too. Pakistani nation will never be run by Talibs.

LEAVE THEM ALONE.

Kamath

Re: # 71 Ippi
"a supossedly muslim sect"

Emphasis on supposedly?

Re: # 66
As-salaam Alaikom to all, and seasons wet greetings too!

ChowQ will soon split writers/interacters into two categories:

1) Banned by ChowQ (punished for speaking the truth)
2) Banned-Chowq (rewarded for spreading lies)

Come now ZeeMax, explain to JayP, Laddu, Pappu, Guddu, Billu, Guppu, and Chappu what the second category stands for!

Arjun, tahmed's humor is as tasteless as he is spineless

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Masadi the Liberator: Thank God you have released from your illegal detention. We all were deeply concerned when he heard that you had decided to go on hunger strike in prison. Newspapers around the world were clamoring for your release. The entire student population of Berkeley, Sorbonne, University of Tokyo, and the Rotterdam School of Economics went on sympathy hunger strike with you.

The Evil Emperor Hamidm was doing palace intrigues (just like Musharraf) to keep you out. But they could not keep you out, Mon Empereur!!

Vive "Napoleon" Masadi!! Vive Le'Empereur!!
Lota Hamidm hai hai

#79 Posted by masadi on July 3, 2008 7:11:16 am

I see no text in your message..

testing

This is for HP...History cum political expert...
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/too-late-for-ndeal-us-sends-deadline-remi nder/68238-3.html

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#75
LOL, Jihadi/Islamists wants to issue FATWA, compliant with moon god's revealition to mediaval arab beduine....
Arjun and me are professionals. We are trying to educate arab slaves....

hamidm: so what goes it of yours (to speak like sheikh rashid) if poor masadi adds to the fools on chowk? isnt this website meant for fools anyway?

how come indian fools who come to chowk to tell us how much they dont want to have anything to do with us dont bother you as much as our own little masadi? doesnt poor nkg, e.g., merit your irritation as well? is arjun a monkey whose chattering is background noise to you? is jay a lunatic whom you ignore? I resent your treatment of our poor Indian posters as not being worthy of your irritation!! Do you consider them subhuman little critters or what??

chowk staff,

please ban masadi from this forum - we already have enough fools who have seniority over him and this place can handle only so many ........... if you want to keep him you will have to ban at least ten lesser fools .... also there is a danger that the isi, cia, raw, mossad and the royal horticulture society might follow him here and throw us all in guantanamo for threatening the us elite and endangering pink papayas ........

thank you for your kind consideration

Re: # 70
Stuka...
Yes, Nice logic!!!!
When people starts fleeing his place of birth, how the question of raising of voice comes?
Tell me a place where Muslims are not cribbing or creating trouble to others?

Good Article Hoodbhoy.

We have to fight this menace starting from the perceptions in our house. This struggle begins at home - when we stop forcing our own family members to follow the religion in a particular way.

Let's hope we all unite as Pakistanis and make this country as good as it's promise.

hoodbhoy is not a minority , he is from ismaili sect , a supossedly muslim sect whose head is agha khan

"So tell me, WHY do you think that minorities are better treated in Pakiland as compared to India."

Its obvious. Because they complain much less, compared to the minorities of India. You are so simple.

In #60 read "and those that struggled against it to push the people in like ZAB were butchered while their butcherers drive Red custom designed Hummers (referring to Musharraf's new Hummer that he drives around to see his friends together with his security details), wearing shades flanked by commandoes and what not, whose price if redeemed can feed a small city three square meals for a week in a country where 84% live in misrable conditions on less than $2 a day.....that fools day of redemption is coming, and I hope this fool PH hangs with him...."

Majumdar, thanks for posting my comments, I have been released from illegal detention by Chowk Staff, and am ready to post again to bust the smokescreen being set up by the assorted peons of the West like tahmed and hoodbhoy, not to mention the sage of the sewers whose smokescreen is as transparent as GWBs BS...

Zee sahib,

Sorry, I missed that.

Regards

#63 Posted by majumdar,

But Pappu mian's record of the SAME two posts 100 times each = 200 in a row seems unbeatable!

testing...

Mr Hoodboy should have more respect for the faith of the people of the country he lives in as a protected minority. There isn't enough time in the day to argue with every rotten "journalist" who puts out stuff he knows to be littered with half-truths and distortion. As a Parsi, or whatever you are, you should respect the Muslim faith rather than play the same role played by the zionists and neocons of the west that lied their public into disastrous wars. In the US they got discovered in hindsight and and they were properly referred to as frauds and charlatans after the fact. In Pakistan our tradition of dealing with such a traitor would not leave you so lucky.

Looks like Tahir mian will break Dawa behens record of max no. of consecutive posts only these posts would be on different threads!!!

Regards

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??!!

Masadi sahib wishes to inform chowkies that the chowkstaff has banned him for 48 hours after saying it was for 24, and he would have busted his (PHs) BS were he unblocked.

Posting on his behalf:

attack by an external enemy always unites divergent groups within a society while internal fighting especially against those who are seen as oppressors (the Pakistan Army) will never evoke such condemnation. If an African American (considered outsiders in the US) were to rape a white woman, the social reaction is much different to when a white man rapes the same woman. This fool, PH is a social illiterate yet he tries to pontificate on social issues. If America were to vanish into thin air, the Taliban and the Jihadists will after a correction period definitely fizzle out, like I said, giving a bunch of thugs the "major enemy status" to divert attention from actual struggles against the empire is what has given them the nourishment they need to become what they are becomming. Read HPs post with care and know that this is not the same Pakistan where Army thugs, Religious thugs and liberal wannabes like PH can dupe the masses, the people are seeing the truth and the truth tells them that it is all about power and in this struggle for power they have been left out all along by the establishment and those that struggled against it to push the people in like ZAB were butchered will the butcheres drive Red csstom designed Hummers, wearing shades flanked by commandoes and what not, whose price if redeemed can feed a small city three square meals for a week in a country where 84% live in misrable conditions on less than $2 a day.....that fools day of redemption is coming, and I hope this fool PH hangs with him....

Regards

Pakistan is in the grip of two monsters: One the overlordship of American hegemonism and imperialism and the other is obscurantism of the cave people, the Taliban.They both have their own agendas.But incidently they are each others enemies also.Taliban are not the committed anti Soviet religious cruaders of yester years.They are exterminators of what human civilzation and society have achieved so far by way of scientific discoveries and research.
Let them fight each other out.That will be good riddance for the humanity and the present day world.Pakistan in the meanwhile will suffer as a battle ground.Faraz Saeed

Cobra: hamidm meant the djinn in his gin and tonic.

"........ we are up against supernatural forces that are aided by the likes of hazrat khizer, hazrat suleiman, squadrons of ababeel bombers and fiery djinns ...... these barbarians must be exterminated with extreme prejudice or else they will destroy mankind ........"

hallelujahs to that brother!

The present day Taliban grew out of the Mujahedeen who defeated the Soviet Union. But what did they do after that? They went to war against each other and their people, thereby completely destroying their own country and causing a lot of damage in Pakistan with their Kalashnikov culture. I do not mean to suggest that the Americans should stay. Rather, the Taleban should not be allowed to create a vacuum and then fill it when the Americans are forced to leave the region. That would be disastrous for the entire South Asian and Central Asian regions. The only way to prevent it is to defeat the Taleban and to ask the American military to leave the region alone. If the American forces are asked to stay and rebuild, it would only only cause more problems. Any American assistance should be purely civilian and humanitarian at the point.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 49

hp,

... trust me, i want to believe you and would fill hyour mouth with ghee and shakar if i had any, but i am afraid you are underestimating this insidious enemy ......

.........you say that "10K fighters cannot take over Afghanistan what to talk of Pakistan" ..... true, but we are not talking about normal flesh and blood human beings .... you forget that they started with 313 (or was it 413) rag tag fighters at badr and went on to raise hell in persia and andalusia and the maghreb and made life miserable for our forefathers ..... tell that to our hindoo friends on this forum whose scrawny veggie fed posteriors are still smarting from that experience many centuries ago .........

........ we are up against supernatural forces that are aided by the likes of hazrat khizer, hazrat suleiman, squadrons of ababeel bombers and fiery djinns ...... these barbarians must be exterminated with extreme prejudice or else they will destroy mankind ........

Re: # 53 HP

Did it ever occur to you that there could be a thing called "Afghan Nationalism". The fact of the matter is that for the past 30 years their country has been ravaged by foreign superpowers one after the other. Several million Afghanis have been killed ever since due to foreign occupation and millions have been displaced for decades now. Putting everything in jihads account is wrong. But this is done with a purpose. The propaganda line is that that since Afghan freedom fighters are conducting a Jihad (a religious war) therefore it is wrong. But the fact of the matter is that no matter what you call it this war is nothing more than a nationist struggle against foreign occupation. And so is OBLs.

Every self respecting nation would have done the same. Sacrifices have been made and Afghans will fight until the last crusader is kicked out of their country whether they get help from Pakistani side or not.

On the other hand, while neo-colonial imperialists were pouring billions of dollars every week, a way lot cheaper measures could have been taken to seal the Pak-Afghan border. Americans do not want it because they have a bigger agenda and they want insurgency to continue, because it justifies their presence in the area; but corrupt military elite in Pakistan could have made its contribution to the so called WOT conditional, subject to the erection of such wall. Had they done that, no one would have been whining now.

Just as US-West-paki fouj nexus created talibans and mujahideens; the same assholes are responsible for creating Pakistani Talibans. Just as Afghan mujahideen took a life of their own, Pakistani Taliban will (or have)too. Once you empower someone you cannot request him to kindly relinquish his powers - it is as simple as that.

For our survival we must:

1. Hang Musharaf in the courtyard of lal masjid
2. Re-instate an independent judiciary.
3. Hold elections under this new judiciary to elect legitimately representative national government.
4. Americans must be dealt with. They must be contained with in Afghanistan. The insurgency there must be supported to keep them busy over there.
5. Wall must be built to seal off Pak-Afghan border.

It cannot be done, unless napak military is contained by Pakistani citizens first. It is no use to put dharna in front of a neutered parliament, but it is imperative that foujis all around the country must be hounded and boycotted. It is incumbent upon every Muslim Pakistani to socially boycott every fouji family in the country. Shopkeepers must stop selling to them. People must stop having social interaction with them. They must be told the kind of pigs they are. Dahrana must be placed in front of Army house and every cantonment. Dharna must be placed in front of every foujis house, even at the rank of a sipahi. If they have chosen to act and behave as foreign agents, then we must treat them as such too. We must tell them to get the fukk out of our country and go fukk themelves in canada or something, assholes.

#50 Posted by Urstruly
“If first three characters are so corrupt and manipulative then they will keep making talibans fight, no matter what. In other words the real culprits in all this bloody games is whom you and Hoodbhoy are trying to support. A pro-western corrupt military regime. and you keep finding ways to justify violenec against pakistani citizens.�

Wow! You need to read my post with open eyes and ponder over what is in there. The instinctive, kneejerk response is not making you look good. I have clearly not supported the Pak army in my post. You forget that I am even condemning the US for not investigating the shit out of these buggers. The connection that I made is for people who can figure out a few things on their own and don’t need hand holding. I am disappointed that you are accusing me of justifying the violence. I am instead suggesting that the Pak army is out there to kill some innocent people on someone else’s behalf.

You are just upset that I am calling Taliban the ISI creation and mostly of criminal background at least in FATA. The faster you guys come out of the Islamic jihad thingy the better it would be for the country. The whole thing was designed for a purpose and you were sending everyone with a beard to fight the war. That has permanently damaged the country. Some day you will figure out why there were so many bearded Pakistanis in every picture in 2002 to 2005 and why there are so few now. You guys have been had, made fool of and turned in to marshmallows by the Pakistani and the foreign agencies you deride often.
Also read my post #34. That will open your eyes.

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#27 Posted by zeemax
“ the Mangal Bagh group is basically the narco-mafia of Khyber Agency manned by abductors for ransom and hired assassins of the famed Khyber Agency's 'Ilaqa Ghair', propped up by the intelligence agencies as a buffer to Taliban making advances into Khyber Agency. This seems to confirm my earlier suspicions but questions remain.�

Zee, I have been saying this all along that these guys are criminals and work for intelligence agencies. Finally, you have come to your senses and realized that Islamic jihadis in FATA are just criminals out to make some money from one secret agency to another. They have no problem with who is the giver ISI, CIA, KHAD, Iranian, Chinese, or the Russians. Your Islamic Jihadis are just criminals, money grabbers, murderers, drug smugglers, and petty thieves.

There was no Taliban advance towards Peshawar or into Khyber Agency. This was a façade created by the Pak army for show of force in FATA.

Your Hero Baitullah Mehsod is another criminal and an ISI paid servant. Things are moving fast and no one can hide the truth in Pakistan for long!

#25 Posted by pavocavalry
RAVI RIKHYE ON ISLAMISATION IN PAKISTAN

“Point The Third IHT quotes a state ruling party member (the party is moderate) as saying he believes the Taliban group around Peshawar has been created by Pakistan ISI.
You can take it that any Pakistan group fighting in Afghanistan is ISI. The original Taliban were ISI and so are the new Taliban.
US likes to pretend that ISI is some kind of independent power in Pakistan and that parts of it are rogue. Please understand that the the ISI is no independent power. It 100% represents the Pakistan Army and to a lesser extent the other services. There are NO rogue elements worth mention in the ISI: almost everything it does is sanctioned by the army's commanders.�

Up to this point Ravi is right on the money. There are no rogue elements in ISI and no Taliban sympathizers’ either. They are doing what was asked of them. I have always liked to read Ravi and his analysis and obviously, he is a well briefed Indian agencies operator. However, he very quickly turned around and raised the bogey of “we are picking up that Pakistan is preparing to take its new war against India to the next level;�

I would say that India is ready to stir up Kashmir so that Indian work in Afghanistan is justified. Just watch this.

“We cant go into details, but "our" Pakistani are authentic and you can believe us or not, but we can assure you that the balance between Islamists and non-Islamists in the Pakistan Army has decisively, perhaps irrevocably tipped in favor of the Islamists. […] what was previously kept hidden in the last eight years for fear of America is gradually coming into the open, though the Pakistanis are still scared of America.�

If it was not Ravi, I would have just laughed it off but he really is making a case that Pakistan would once again unleash the Islamic Jihadi in Kashmir. Again, as I said, he is preparing the grounds for Indian intelligence and diplomatic offensive in Afghanistan. I think India is prepared to increase its presence in FATA. Going on a diplomatic offensive now would pay off when Pakistan is deep in quagmire in FATA and trapped in a game that it can’t win.

There is not even an outside chance that the Pak army would go Islamic. Not now and not in future. That phase is history.

Re: # 49 HP

You and hoodbhoy are two sides of the same coin. Both of you you in your own ways justify violence and state terrorism on the citizens of Pakistan. Both of you portray sons of this soil as some kind of Martians who have just landed from another planet and are hell bound to destroy our planet. With all political and judicial avenues closed, a dictator and a foreign agent sitting at top, a military that has turned itself into a mafia and a corrupt ruling elite, whose only purpose in life is to plunder pakistan, an illegitimate and unrepresentative civilian government, what do you expect people to do?

If dictator, a corrupt and out of control military, and extremely dangerous intelligence agencies are playing this bloody game so that dollars keep flowing, then why talibans. If first three characters are so corrupt and manipulative then they will keep making talibans fight, no matter what. In other words the real culprits in all this bloody games is whom you and Hoodbhoy are trying to support. A pro-western corrupt military regime. and you keep finding ways to justify violenec against pakistani citizens.

“Tragically for Pakistan, American hypocrisy has played into the hands of Islamic militants. They have been vigorously promoting the notion that this is a bipolar conflict of Islam, which they claim to represent, versus imperialism. Many Pakistanis, who desperately want someone to stand up to the Americans, buy into this.
This is a fatal mistake. The militants are using America as a smokescreen for their real agenda. Created by poverty, a war-culture, and the macabre manipulations of Pakistan’s intelligence services, the militants want more than just to fight an aggressor from across the oceans.�

Dr. Hoodbhoy half truths and not facing the reality diminishes your role. Can we look deeper in to the smokescreen and determine who is actually behind the smokescreen?

The learned Doctor claims that the American hypocrisy played in the hands of the Islamic militants. How truthful is that? How about this: the idiot militants have played in to the American hands. Would anyone with a little common sense believe that these ragtag uneducated petty criminals in FATA can manipulate the ISI? ISI is one of the most sophisticated, battle tested, trained in the finest US training centers intelligence outfit. The ISI has worked with the US for over thirty years; they are no fools manipulated by the likes of Mullah Omar or Baitullah Masood who have never even seen a good college in their whole life. Dr. Sahib you are drinking the Kool-Aid too fast and too much.

Did Taliban create the ISI? The fact is that the ISI created Taliban then how come the same Taliban are now manipulating the ISI. It is the other way around. The Taliban are very smartly manipulated by the Pak army, its intelligence agencies like the ISI and some foreign agencies.

The US and NATO estimate that there are about 10,000 Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. Doctor Sahib you are an educated and a very smart person but you fail to figure out yet another simple fact that 10K fighters cannot take over Afghanistan what to talk of Pakistan. The number is good enough for a guerrilla fight but not for taking over a country. We don’t live in the pre sixties era when a small bunch of guerrillas took over Cuba.

What is the US hypocrisy? Was it not shifting the terror battle from Afghanistan to Iraq? Iraq had nothing to do with Terrorism. It did not take long for the US to lose the moral high ground when the lies for the Iraq war were exposed. The US admin lost credibility and now a majority of Americans is questioning why the US did not capture Osama and why the afghan campaign not concluded when it should have been, way back in 2002.

Was it not the US hypocrisy when the US did not examine the Pak army and the ISI role with regards to 9/11? It is on record that the ISI chief wired $100k to the gang before 9/11. Why the ISI chief not questioned when he was in the US on 9/11? He was breakfasting with the chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee on that dreadful morning. Why he was allowed to fly out immediately after the wire transaction was disclosed?

So what is the deal in FATA? You turn any stone in the tribal area in Pakistan and you will find two hustlers, smugglers, drug dealers, and thieves hiding behind there. The whole Islamic drama and the Taliban is just another scam. The scam is more organized and much more sophisticated because the people behind that are not just the ISI. Ask yourself two simple questions: why the NATO armies won’t fight the Taliban and why the US is so hesitant to put its forces against the Taliban.

The US wants the Pak army to kill some in FATA and their next of kin to in turn suicide bomb Pakistan and the game would continue. The cycle of violence would continue. The money would keep flowing in and yes, some stupid in Pakistan would believe that the Islamic victory is around the corner.

The Pakistani Talibans are just criminals. Pakistan just created another Taliban against the old Taliban. The game would continue for as long as there is a need for the war on terror. The global interests have long superseded the real war!

tahmed buddy, how is that democracy thing coming in pakistan? I recall you were jumping all around celebrating like a little bangladeshi on a camel....how this time its different? who are you supporting now? the camel I hope!!

pandit hamidm: ommm.....shanti....what irrationalities are we airing today?

HP #34 "Taliban and Islamists are a bunch of petty criminals and people are beginning to figure that out too. "

True. Bush and co. never figured thism out too - as the British PM Brown pointed out when he said the response to 9/11 should have been a simple anti-crime action, rather than inflating it into a "War on Terror".

Thus, today the Nation has this revealing story:

Pak-Nato joint action on Afghan border

KHOST (Agencies) - NATO and US troops killed dozens of militants on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, officials said Tuesday, after the foreign forces suffered their deadliest month since the fall of the Taliban.

US-led helicopters and bombers killed 33 insurgents in eastern Khost province late Monday, while NATO soldiers in the same area cooperated with Pakistani troops across the frontier to kill several more rebels, they said.
..ISAF, co-ordinating with the Pakistan military, responded with air strikes, artillery and rocket fire, causing the militants to flee into Pakistan, it said....

Meanwhile, four persons were killed during a shootout between two rival groups ..to settle a goats’ theft clash.


So: here we have 21st Century NATO forces with all their technical sophistication fighting..guys who are still fighting one another over goats!!

Re: # 43

kaal, the clown, does have an "interesting" view point... his unabashed support and sympathy towards islamism and other such bedouin voodoo ideology is kind of unique...

islamists do take him seriously - and that may not be a bad thing... like hamid pointed out, islamists are all geared up to self-destruct and kaal is just egging them on... Not a bad thing at all...

Re: # 41

ajeya,

.... i agree with you - the whole lot is crazy but the lunatic fringe is ready to blow - it is one dynamite stick short of a suicide belt ...... and your friend eklavya is ready with the match stick to light the fuse ..... he is a true indian patriot

yaar I don't know, why you guys even take the fool seriously. I summed him up in #29. he is a clown

Re: # 39

hamid is right... pakis should be careful about a hanood saying sweet words... Kaal is the ultimate hanood, he has a knife hidden in his armpit... :)

#39 hamidm2

[..... eklavya is a true hindoo nationalist who wants the pakistani people to destroy themselves - that is why he is always encouraging the lunatic fringe of the crazy paki society .... he is like the man who stands on the street encouraging the suicidal fool to jump ......i wouldn't be surprised if he was on thackery's payroll ..... ]

hamidm,

The fringe might be lunatic, but the rest of the society, while not lunatic, is infected with Islam, and acts as the breeders of future lunatics that keep popping up here and there from WITHIN the non-lunatic mainstream.

Therein lies the problem.

Over the centuries some Muslims have struggled to get out of the "system". Maybe Ahmediism is a way out. Or that Persian Bahai thing. While all are equally idiotic, at least these are less violent, and less dangerous alternatives.

#38 chaltahai

[he means to say, there are actually minorities in India of note. not a random traffic cop sardar...actually never mind..he is not a traffic cop no longer :) ]

I realize that he is possibly being sarcastic. but my point was that sarcasm is only effective when people get it. If they don't, then what you are saying is being construed as the literal truth - and has the same effect as if you are NOT being sarcastic.

So therefore, he is assisting in propagating a lie. No matter what his motivation might be. He should be smart enough to realize this.

Re: # 37

ajeya,

..... eklavya is a true hindoo nationalist who wants the pakistani people to destroy themselves - that is why he is always encouraging the lunatic fringe of the crazy paki society .... he is like the man who stands on the street encouraging the suicidal fool to jump ......i wouldn't be surprised if he was on thackery's payroll .....

he means to say, there are actually minorities in India of note. not a random traffic cop sardar...actually never mind..he is not a traffic cop no longer :)

#32 Eklavya

[Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.]

This is why I say that a lot of times, instead of using a clever choice of words to get your point across, you are actually being two-faced.

So tell me, WHY do you think that minorities are better treated in Pakiland as compared to India.

replying #32,

Eklawya,

You said:
[Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.]

Do you want to live in some Islamic land and check what growth opportunities and freedom you will get as a hindu without converting. Or may be check what you get after converting?

What else you need in India? You shuold live in Saudi Arabia and pay Jijia tax, or you should live in Pakistan and should get to know their muslim caste hierarchy and where you as hindu minority will be counted.

Who is in minority in India and what do they not get?

What the hell is this "disaffection and alienation", who is getting affection in India? In Pakistan nobody even used to count if remaning hindus were killed or raped, at least in India somebody counts them to some extent.

As per Islam there are no rights of minorities, all they can deserve is killing or slavery or if it helps Islam then probably living as second rated citizens. In India you can at least show your resentment openly, you can fight whatever way you want, in Islamic countries all you can do is suffer in silence.

Re: # 25

Zeemax thinks this is an excellent summation, he has his reasons, I see this as a deliberately crafted disinformation.

Posts such as these are designed to instigate action, action that will invite nothing but trouble for the poor masses of Pakistan, hasten the avoidable, provide the necessary groundwork for the ultimate catastrophe, decimation and then balkanization of Pakistan.

Globalization does not permit troubled states, particularly those with Nukes and crazies, there is much at stake here and benefactors of Pakistan are getting impatient.

“The recent killing of eleven Pakistani soldiers at Gora Prai by American and NATO forces across the border in Afghanistan unleashed an amazing storm[…] But had the killers been the Taliban, this would have been a non-event.�

This is just ridiculous! Dr. Hoodbhoy has been writing about political issues long enough to know the simple thing that any attack by a foreign force is always condemned, whereas an attack by internal fighters would not get the same attention. Despite the hue and cry in the newspapers, Pakistani foreign office had a hard time to get the US ambassador in the foreign Secretary’s office to lodge the complaint. The idiot FM Qureshi ran away. The Pak ambassador in DC wasn’t even prepared to condemn the whole thing. Expecting these people to protect the national interests, is little too much. The Pak army has taken on the role of Mir Jaffar. Dr. Hoodbhoy wants people to look at the menacing Taliban but the Taliban are in a small part of Pakistan. What people see daily is a parade of some of the most insipid characters leading the country. The President defies resentment and to stay in the office he begs the US to make some phone calls on his behalf.

Common folks don’t see the finer points that Dr. Hoodbhoy is advocating. They see what is in front of their eyes. When they see a government, an army, and a President mooning the whole country for their petty interests, even criminals fighting the traitors in power, become heroes.

The Indian History would bear me out. Not only the Indian, but Dr. Hoodbhoy can learn this lesson from the world history. The Thugs in India became part of the folk lore because people perceived them to be defying the state by their criminal activities. In South America many criminal gangs became the anti establishment heroes. We are watching the same phenomenon in Pakistan. People don’t support the Taliban, they support the defiance, and they support any action that is against the criminals controlling the state.

A minor incident like the PMLn support of 29 judges in a petty finance bill brought the public condemnation and the PMLn scrambled to control the damage. When the public sentiments against the establishment reach the level that it is now in Pakistan, anyone defying the state with arms would be become a hero.

A thoroughly foreign financed politician Nawaz has tapped on the same sentiments. He has become the official opposition because at this time the establishment can only trust its own to lead the opposition and control the resentment. While Zardari is helping the establishment now, Nawaz would take over this mantle after him. The Lawyers movement was getting out of hands but that too is now controlled. Pakistan’s epic battle is not with Taliban, it is with the establishment or the army, and instead of accepting defeat the army would balkanize the country. That is the danger. Taliban and Islamists are a bunch of petty criminals and people are beginning to figure that out too.

Re: # 24

supersize,

.... you sound like one of those crazy immigrant women in nadeem aslam's "map for lost lovers" ....... you still seem to be living in morbid fear of being adopted by white people who will make you eat pork, drink alcohol and not wash your butt after you go to the bathroom ....... trust me, toilet paper will not kill you ..... you need to have your djinns exorcised by a mullah from multan ......

Speaking of minorities, SupersizeMe, ignoring all advese propaganda, Islamic system provides among the best environments for them (not sure which would be better).
If you feel apologetic, you should compare minorities in Pakistan, with say, minorities in India.

The situation of minorities in India is sad, with rampant and deep disaffection and alienation. Unfortunately, in this drumbeat of oppressive 'democracy', you don't hear of it much, until some Indian Muslim is able to get the word out. We need to ask ourselves: Who would like to live in a place where religious riots are commonplace and nazis win elections and hold power?

On riots, here is something interesting from Dr Ansari of AMU:

http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/28/op.htm

--------------

So any 'discomfiture' for minorities in an Islamic system would be trivial. It would be decidedly better, fairer and more just, than living as minorities in other systems, Indian one, most certainly.

AdamKhan #28 very good post. I agree with 1Safe - mullahs who opposed Pakistan are now first in line to demand to rule over Pakistan by claiming what supersize me writes (i.e. that Pakistan was created for the impostiion of "laws" defined by mullahs, i.e. sharia laws).

Even if Jinnah had opposed Pakistan and Maudoodi had called for Pakistan, even then there would be no justification for making Pakistan a theocracy. Or if someone thinks that the people of Pakistan really are eager to be ruled by mullahs - generally considered the scum of Pakistani society - then they should call for a referendum where mullahs dont hide behind their hypoocrisy of "sharia laws" and make the implication clear - i.e. that sharia laws mean that mullahs create laws, mullahs interpret laws, mullahs implement laws. And who are these mullahs? unemployable men who have grown beards to make a living!

#24 SupersizeMe writes 'pakistan is in fact an 'islamic republic', it was created for muslims, 97% of it's inhabitants are muslim, the majority of us, we wish for the country to operate sharia law and other such laws and systems, is that necessarily a bad thing?

granted we have minorities which may feel a tad 'discomforted' by this, but actual islamic law ensures that such minorities should be treated with equal dignity'

Then this: 'the basics of islamic law are actually much kinder on minorities if you'd actually research them, m. a. jinnah's speeches also declared equality towards these minorities.'

I am hoping you are not implying that Quaid wanted a theocracy. The name Islamic Republic of Pakistan was not given by Quaid, it came much later. He did not want to give minorities sadqaat aur khairaat, he was convinced of equality as per secular convictions.

adamkhan, your post to eklavya, while good intentioned, will never hit the mark. Our brother kaal is like a virtual animal lashing out against the reality of overpowering stimuli breaking down his defenses.

He is a goner...a rhetorical being...a denizen of lalaland..like the black kniight in Monty Python's holy grail...in his case, with his intellectual limbs shredded by reality and logic, he feigns victory for simply having been on the battleground. a purely islamist trait. :)

The tragedy of Pakistan is not that the demons-let-loose-from-hell, as hoodbhoy portrays them are about to take over Pakistan, but the tragedy is how well-educated people like hoodbhoy defend this status quo of the rule of demons that are already devouring Pakistan. Hoodbhoy considers this system, which feeds on the blood of citizens of Pakistan, worth defending?? laholwila quwat. He is asking people of pakistan to stand up and defend the sorry assess of pathetic excuse for humanity like fouj, pirs, feudals, 10%s, and 100%s from getting exterminated?? If I were hoodbhoy, I would take Ras's advice below and set my priorities straight while I still have the time. This system of injustice, corruption, and inefficiency is about to fall victim to the law of natural selection. Why hoodbhoy is siding with those who are destined to be loosers?

#25 Posted by pavocavalry,

Excellent summation. Ironic in a sense that the Little Red Riding Hoods will still believe only things as they want to see it, and not as they are. That's why I call them Frogs in warm water who will only know there was a fire underneath when it comes to a boil and kills them.

Interestingly, I spoke with a Khan of Charsadda from a very prominent landed political family who said they have no problem with Taliban because they are not criminals - but the Mangal Bagh group is basically the narco-mafia of Khyber Agency manned by abductors for ransom and hired assassins of the famed Khyber Agency's 'Ilaqa Ghair', propped up by the intelligence agencies as a buffer to Taliban making advances into Khyber Agency. This seems to confirm my earlier suspicions but questions remain.

Eklavya:

Peshawar would be harmed if there is a ban on the education of women, public amputations, stoning people to death, ban on television and internet etc. and these would be done by ignorant fools who wouldn't be considering it as harmful.

As for professor hoodbhoy, well read up a bit on him, he has never been in "power" as you mentioned in ur post. This guy saved Quaid i Azam university (QAU) Islamabad from being turned into a housing colony for teachers. In doing so he gave up his own right to have a plot at the foot of Margalla hills in Islamabad (would have been worth a few crores today). unlike many of his critics on this board he prefers to stay in Pakistan.

I was a student at the QAU in those days and was amazed at the blatant greed shown by many of our professors, especially the ones who were regulars at the campus mosque.

Dont believe everything that the jihadis spew on this website... most of these english speaking pompom jihadis are in western countries... they have no idea of the realities in Pakistan... and neither do they care.

RAVI RIKHYE ON ISLAMISATION IN PAKISTAN

More Headache Inducing News From Pakistan's NWFP This is one of those days when your editor feels he is living on Pluto for all that he knows what is happening on Earth, which seems to be about nil. We have often complained about the paucity of our sources. With the commercial part of Orbat.com on life support we have lost approximately 80 of our correspondents and almost all of our network. We had several people in Pakistan - five to be be precise - and now we have zero. It's sad that whereas we know how to get information but have no money, mainstream media which has money seldom knows how to get cost-effective news. For what a western media agency pays to keep one person in Pakistan, we could give you original, up-to-date news on about 60% of the world.

Anyway, enough self-pity. Media says Pakistan Frontier Corps has attacked Pakistan Taliban positions around Peshawar. According to International Herald Tribune the Frontier Corps commander says the operation was launched because people were demanding the government do something, and right there you can see how pathetic is the whole scene. Why do you have to wait till the public demands you do your job before you do your job? Has the Pakistan government really become that ineffective in Peshawar, which is a major Pakistan city and the capital of the NWFP?

Apparently the answer is "yes". We knew the Pakistani Taliban was closing in on Peshawar; we had no clue it has already closed in on Peshawar. We thought this development was two years away. So you can understand why your editor is weeping and moaning about not knowing a thing.

Background: there is a gent who in the last three years has built up a force of several thousand fighters and has taken over so much of Peshawar's surrounding areas that the government has ceased to function. He is allied with another gent, a foreigner, who has a force of unknown size composed of foreign fighters who keep busy attacking the US/partners. The other day the first gent raided the city itself, kidnapped 16 Christians, later released after negotiations. Read $$$$. so the city's inhabitants are understandably feeling insecure.

Okay, so lets put all that aside and go behind the scenes. Point The First: The last three years happens to coincide with the period the Taliban have rebuilt themselves and taken over large parts of Afghanistan. It also coincides with the period Taliban has openly taken over much of NWFP.

Point The Second The garrison city of Peshawar is home to HQ XI Corps, which controls about 60-70,000 troops in the NWFP. We do not know the exact position right now, but when the Pakistan government was supposed to be fighting the insurgents, the Corps had 14 brigades - its own and from other Pakistani corps. Now some of those brigades are in the process of going back to their cantonments because of the peace deal.

Is it not a bit odd that the Taliban now have a choke hold on Peshawar, which is hardly short of troops? What have the troops been doing all this time? And why are they STILL not taking the offensive against Taliban, if for no other reason than which army wants ~5 divisions worth of troops rendered ineffective in their home province?

Pakistan Frontier Corps has been repeatedly defeated in battle by Pakistan Taliban. Please understand this is not a case where the FC has fought and been defeated. The FC has refused to fight. It is officered by regulars from the Pakistan Army, who happen to be overwhelmingly Punjabi. We are willing to bet that when the FC has fought, it is because the men have not dared defy their officers. So understandably, it has made of a show than a real fight. FC doesnt want to fight because it does not see what wrong the Taliban are committing. The Talibs are their brothers - this is not a figure of speech - and the Taliban simply represent majority thinking in the very conservative NWFP. The NWFP folk like neither the Pakistan Government, nor modernization, and they absolutely, completely, utterly hate America. So why should FC fight america's war, especially when the high professional Pakistan Army is increasingly refusing to fight America's war.

Point The Third IHT quotes a state ruling party member (the party is moderate) as saying he believes the Taliban group around Peshawar has been created by Pakistan ISI.

You can take it that any Pakistan group fighting in Afghanistan is ISI. The original Taliban were ISI and so are the new Taliban.

Now we come to Point 4 and this is the part that is seriously disturbing us - but not surprising us. We want you to hold on to your chair because you are going to fall off. Before you hold on to your chair, we'd like to explain something. US likes to pretend that ISI is some kind of independent power in Pakistan and that parts of it are rogue. Please understand that the the ISI is no independent power. It 100% represents the Pakistan Army and to a lesser extent the other services. There are NO rogue elements worth mention in the ISI: almost everything it does is sanctioned by the army's commanders.

This does not mean there are no factions jockeying to advance the power of this general or that general. These are internal disagreements and of no relevance to outsiders. With that in mind:

On information received very recently by your editor (okay, so he is not totally out of it): The Pakistan Army has decided the Islamization of Pakistan will proceed.

Pakistan is already a theocratic state, but it has generally been fairly moderate compared to our Best Friends Forever the Saudis, fairly live and let live. We know our Pakistan readers are going to scoff and say "the Islamization of Pakistan has been going on for 40 years, so what do you mean by "fairly moderate". But a trend can start at one time and take decades to become overwhelming.

But now the Pakistan military has decided its time to go the whole hog. If we go into why, we'll never get this article done. Suffice to say that (a) Pakistan as a nation was a traumatized at the outcome of Partition in 1947-48 (b) it had a breakdown after losing East Pakistan in 1971; and (c) the American intervention in Afghanistan/Pakistan has completed the process. In brief, the Pakistanis are saying clear and loud "we will not be pushed around any more, least of by the US". For a variety of complicated reasons, they see neccessary to redefine their identity, this time as Islamists.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! will say our friends on State's Pakistan desk. You are jumping the gun: trends are there but by no means is what you are saying inevitable. You are wildly exaggerating.

Okay, first lets admit we no longer have any friends in any American government body. We are lying about friends at State, we have no friends anywhere, of any kind.

Second, lets go back to what we say many a time. US to this day talks to those Pakistanis who they can talk to. These are not authentic Pakistanis, they represent an intelligent, widely-read and traveled semi-secular, and humanistic lot who are a tiny, tiny minority in Pakistan. We are not blaming the US, there are all sorts of reasons 99% of countries get things wrong.

We cant go into details, but "our" Pakistani are authentic and you can believe us or not, but we can assure you that the balance between Islamists and non-Islamists in the Pakistan Army has decisively, perhaps irrevocably tipped in favor of the Islamists. (Yes, yes, we know the balance has been tipped for a long time, but unless our readers stop intervening in this debate for now, we'll never get done.) What we are trying to say that what was previously kept hidden in the last eight years for fear of America is gradually coming into the open, though the Pakistanis are still scared of America.

We told you about signals we are picking up that Pakistan is preparing to take its new war against India to the next level; it has already done that in Afghanistan. You can disbelieve us, but you cant disbelieve what your own government is telling you about Pakistan's new intervention in Afghanistan. Talk to any Indian intelligence officer and he will say what we are about Pakistan and India. The war has been on for some years, we have been talking about the next level, this really is not a topic that causes much disagreement in India.

Similarly, you can say that we are exaggerating about the big wave of Islamization that is going to hit Pakistan. But remember: when it hits, we told you first.

well written article hoodbhoy, i must say though taliban is a by-product of america's imperialistic war, it's their baby and pakistan's citizens and army are paying a high price for it.

pakistan is in fact an 'islamic republic', it was created for muslims, 97% of it's inhabitants are muslim, the majority of us, we wish for the country to operate sharia law and other such laws and systems, is that necessarily a bad thing?

granted we have minorities which may feel a tad 'discomforted' by this, but actual islamic law ensures that such minorities should be treated with equal dignity, (and i am horrified when i hear tales of prejuidice and abuse towards these minorities, from a personal note; i'm very sorry!).

the basics of islamic law are actually much kinder on minorities if you'd actually research them, m. a. jinnah's speeches also declared equality towards these minorities.

if a few people are pushing towards secularism, thats their personal right but up against the majority of muslims i dont think that will actually happen too soon. i dont blame them for getting all disillusioned about islamic law when the wrong people abuse their status, but really guys, you're focusing all your angst in the wrong freakin direction!!

Re: # 22

Zee Sahib

Message is very clear from your posts, that the Talibs are here and its a matter of time before they send the "Kanjaroon" borrowing your euphuism to the guillotines.

By the way, I share the same view as yours, barbarians are at the gates and in no hurry to enter. They have learnt their lesson well in Kabul, they are not going to repeat the same.

#21 Posted by rf786,

I suggest you read my posts again on the subject. I have been saying Taliban will surround Peshawar but not attempt to take it over administratively just as they haven't even done Dera Ismail Khan, Bannu or Kohat - much smaller towns.

Re: # 14

{it is a figment of someones imagination that peshawar was under any threat}

Pavo

are you calling Zeemax a liar?

#19 by Ananth07

How will taleban treat the ahmedis and the shia in pakistan... if and when they come to power ?

The same way they treated the Hazaras of Afghanistan, massacring thousands of them in just a few days.

How will taleban treat the ahmedis and the shia in pakistan... if and when they come to power ?

Re: # 17

...perhaps the same way as "Londonistan" was their own home too!

Re: # 15; Eklavya
(Islamists would never harm Peshawar or even Pakistan. It is their own home.)

perhaps the same way they never actually harmed Afghanistan!....instead they manage to change it into a beacon of light for generations to come....some achievement eh!

do you want them in India Kaal??...they are two a penny; I am sure we can spare a few for you guys..

Mr. Hoodbhoy,
As long as Pakistanis support a Taliban government for Afghans, many Pakistanis will themselves be ready to share such a blessing with Afghans. If Pakistanis are willing to even determine this question for Afghans in favor of Taliban, you can't deny such Pakistanis self-determination on this question.

It is Pakistanis who want a Taliban government for Afghanistan and FATA but want the currently existing Karzai-like government for Pakistan, who have to resolve their mental confusion.

"it is a figment of someones imagination that peshawar was under any threat."

Islamists would never harm Peshawar or even Pakistan. It is their own home.

At best they want people like Pervez Hoodbhoy to really share power, instead of getting a free political ride.

it is a figment of someones imagination that peshawar was under any threat . it was a case of pleasing the americans to get aid.a white wash.pakistanb is a haven of crooks and all the biggest crooks are in pakistan's tiop echelons both military and civil so what is this operation against.

amin ji, wow! I like that description of Islamists and Opportunists much better. I use have used less descrpitive terms - Believers and Belongers.

And yes, the fight between Islamists and Opportunists was/remains inevitable.

I personally don't think Opportunits will be able to hold off forever...How long they will continue to have the upper hand, time will tell. Chances are, at least some Opportunists, being opportunists, will try to involve outsiders in order to save themselves, but that might create its own dynamics.

IMHO, outsiders should have no interest at all in helping out Opportunists. Instead, they should wait for these elements to be sorted out, and negotiate with the real believers.

pavocavalry,

I think the iLog you published on Islamisation of Pakistan is very relevant to reproduce here. It is inevitable.

As they now set their sights on Peshawar and beyond, they must be resisted by all possible means, including adequate military force.

Quote courtesy echoboom: "Jab ga**nd lagi phatney - khairaat lagi batney"

These are all the symptoms. What is the solution from here?

After all these years, Hoodhbhoy is till writing sub-sophomoric nonsense like this.

the muslim elite for getting job quotas and political mileage mis-used islam and islamic slogans right from 1858 to date and re now in t____k s___t and will remain so !

7 July 2003

Pakistan’s Islamic Factor

A.H Amin

History proves that religion has been repeatedly used by various classes to secure their personal or class aims and objectives ! Religion as a political factor to unite Indians against the British was introduced in politics by Gandhi ! Gandhi represented the Hindu middle and professional classes funded by the business classes who were western educated , outwardly secular in outlook but relied on Hindu religious symbols to achieve their political ends ! When Gandhi sidelined Mr Jinnah from main congress leadership after 1921-22 Mr Jinnah also abandoned his initial ideology of Indian nationalism based on constitutionalism and adopted Islam as his slogan ! In most of his political speeches Mr Jinnah stressed on the fact that the Indian Muslims were a separate nation and their unique religious and social practices entitled them to have a separate country ! This slogan was convenient and politically expedient to unite the pre 1947 Indo Pak Muslims against the Hindu dominated congress ! In 1947 while addressing the constituent assembly of Pakistan Mr Jinnah clarified that his idea of Pakistan was a secular state where Muslims and non Muslims would politically speaking only be Pakistanis and religion would be a private matter !
Mr Jinnah’s line of reasoning was not immediately questioned by the religious right since Jinnah was an indisputed leader but the question whether Pakistan was a secular state or an Islamic state was hotly debated in the constituent assembly of Pakistan from 1948 till 1956 ! The Muslim League and most other parties of this time were dominated by the professional middle classes or landlords who had merely viewed religion as a slogan to galvanise the masses and never wanted a theological state ! The landlords wanted to get rid of a Hindu money lending class and a land reform threatening congress party while the middle classes enthusiastically supported Pakistan because they viewed the new state as one with greater opportunities of advancement for their class since the Hindus who were more educationally advanced were eliminated from the competition !
The religious parties which had initially opposed Pakistan’s creation based on the idea that partition would only divide Indian Muslims now turned the table on the Muslim League by demanding that since the Muslim League itself declared that the Indo Pak Muslims needed a separate country to practice Islam , the new country must be based on the Islamic Sharia ! The non religious feudal and middle class Muslim Leaguers led by Liaquat Ali Khan initially outmanoeuvred the Islamists by moving the Objectives Resolution which paid lip service to Islam while preserving Pakistan’s initially envisaged secular ethos ! The Islamists however were not pacified and the 1953 Anti Qadiani riots proved that the Islamists were a force to be reckoned with ! However massive US aid from 1954 to 1965 marginalised the Islamists and strengthened the secular forces under the military dictator Ayub Khan ! In 1970 the Islamists were again unable to gain much except in NWFP and Baluchistan and the neo-socialist PPP and the nationalistic Awami League swept West and East Pakistan !
Islamists parties were strengthened in between 1971-77 because of the 1971 defeat and because of some of Mr Bhuttos policies ! In 1977 the religious right gained a new benefactor in shape of USA who viewed the Islamist dominated anti Bhutto Pakistan National Alliance as a safer bet than an anti US charismatic leader like Bhutto ! Thus the 1977 agitation and the Zia military coup of 1977 which toppled Mr Bhutto !
Pakistan’s military dictator decided keeping in view the immense political strength of the anti Zia PPP that his best bet to survive was use of Islam as a political slogan ! Thus Zia’s Islamisation measures and the various stunts and ploys employed by the military junta to demonstrate that Zia was a true soldier of Islam !
The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan further strengthened Islamist forces not only in Pakistan but at an international level ! Out of the Afghan War of 1979-88 emerged a promiscuous alliance of convenience like a Mutah marriage ! Financed by the CIA and the Saudis , with Islam as slogan , and Jihad as the modus operandi ! The Islamists because of sheer expediency became the darlings of Pakistan’s ISI and USA’s CIA ! Many billions were pumped to support the anti Soviet Jihad ! Islamist forces were able to consolidate themselves with lavish funds,advanced weaponry and elaborate organizational networks !
All changed after the Soviet withdrawal from Afganistan ! The islamists now became a liability for USA and the Pakistani elite ! The dirty war was over ! The Islamists had done their job ! Now they must not be allowed to reap the harvest ! Thus a reversal of policies !
By 1991 however the Pakistani elite realized that USA no longer needed them and as a result Islamist forces once again received a boost ! Both Nawaz and Benazir governments made many efforts to endear themselves to the USA but the USA snubbed both ! Islamist forces as a result re-organised ! In 1994-96 Pakistan’s government once again used religion as a slogan once the Afghan Talibans were cultivated ! For some time the Americans also saw the taliban as a safe bet for oil pipelines ! However by 1998 the Americans realized that the Talibans were not good enough puppets and must be removed ! During all this time Pakistan’s economy rapidly weakened because of US embargoes and economic policies ! The politicians and the military and intelligence bosses once again fell back on Islamist forces which were used to fight the bloody undeclared wars in Kashmir ! The Kargil adventure of 1999 was the highpoint in this drama once regular Pakistan Army volunteers were employed in the name of Islam with diasastorous consequences !
By October 1999 once Musharraf usurped power Pakistan was a sidelined state till the 9/11 incident which proved a heaven sent opportunity for Pakistan’s military junta just like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had done for Zia the junta !
Pakistan’s military junta now made a U turn and collaborated with the USA in fighting a war against Islamists ! In 1979-89 the same military junta was with the Islamists because it meant US aid ! Now the same military junta viewed the Islamists as persona non gratas simply because it meant getting US aid ! The same state continues till to date !
The chain of historic events above mentioned demand analysis ! From 1937 till 1947 the pre 1947 Muslim elite employed “Islam� as a slogan to galvanise the Muslim masses based on the emotional Pakistan slogan based on Islam ! Once Pakistan was achieved the same elite immediately made a U turn and declared that Pakistan was a secular state without justifying why 1 million Muslims were sacrificed to create a Muslim state where religion would be a personal matter ! Thus HAFEEZ Jullundhri noted with sarcasm ‘ Qaafle lut gaiy barbad ho gayay to kia hooa , Mutmain hain Qaafla Salaar apnay Kaam Say !
Between 1947 and 1976 religion was ditched as US aid came and the middle classes and the higher classes enjoyed great prosperity partly because of international aid and more because of elimination of the rich Hindus by mass genocide and control of evacuee property !
In 1977 religion was employed as a slogan because the middle and higher classes united with the Islamists simply because Mr Bhutto’s policies were a threat for the urban classes in Karachi ,Multan and Lahore because of a variety of reasons including nationalization,quota system,liberal outlook etc ! The USA financed the Islamists against Bhutto because they thought that the Islamists were asafer bet than Bhutto !
Between 1977 and 1989 Pakistan’s military junta used Islam as a tool because it suited their political and economic ends i.e because of the PPP as a political threat and the US military and economic aid in Afghan War !
Between 1989 and 1999 the Islamists once again received a boost because US stopped their aid and the civil and military elite once again picked up the slogan of Islam in danger !
Between 2001 and to date Pakistan’s military junta once again made a U turn and adopted an anti Islamist policy simply because it meant US economic and military aid !
The elections of 2002 strengthened Islamists forces thanks to the U turn of Pakistan’s military government after 9/11 ! The resultant sense of betrayal strengthened the Islamists morally ! The Islamists for the first time emerged as a strong constitutional force which challenged Pakistan’s military junta in Pakistan’s parliament ! Thus the MMA stand on LFO and against Musharraf’s US appeasing policies !
There is no doubt that a storm is gathering in Pakistan Iran Afghanistan and the Arab world which this time will not subside ! This storm is gathering because the Muslim elite has repeatedly used Islam as a convenient slogan , picked up at will to get aid from USA and abandoned at whim once it meant not getting US Dollars !
The Islamists are on a strong footing today ! This the start of a drama that would carry on in many acts ! Since religion was used as a cheap slogan by the elite , now it appears that the elite would have a harder time in manipulating the common man !
Inflation , rising population , unemployment is strengthening the Islamists forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan by leaps and bounds ! The US invasion of Iraq ahs further strengthened the Islamist forces since it has proved to be a spur for forces of resistance led by Islamists!
One Million dead in 1947 to create a country of Muslims !Two million dead in Afghanistan from 1978 till 2003 ! 100,000 dead in Kashmir from 1989 till to date ! 500 dead in Kargil ! The many thousands dead in Palestine,Algeria,Egypt , Iraq , all in the name of Islam ! To make the Islamic world a safer place for miltary dictators who order military volunteers in the name of Islam but pose as liberals to get US aid ! Kings and princes who gamble in Monaco and womanise in Paris but stage behaedings of small time drug dealers to give cheap thrills to the common man !
The day when the Muslim common man would question military dictators or kings about what they did to the aid money they got or the oil money they wasted in gambling or enjoying is not very far away ! Inshallah I hope !
In the next ten years a long bloody war would be fought between the Islamists and the opportunist forces in Muslim world which have agaian and again used Islam as a cheap tool to drug the masses ! Now the Muslim common man cannot be fooled or amused by cheap slogans or beheadings of petty criminals ! Now they want the heads of their rulers who have used Islam in the most Machiavellian manner for achieving their cheap personal and dynastic ends ! This the decade of the decisive war between Islamists and anti Islamists ! This war will not be won by superior weaponry or cheap slogans ! This war will be fought in the shadows , covertly and more motivated forces would finally carry the day ! Many Roman Empires and many great dynasties would be destroyed in the process ! When the common man fearlessly snipes at the US soldiers in Baghdad or when the common man defies Rangers and so many other military entities and goes on with suicide bombings , wars can no longer be won by conventional forces with better weapons bu t weaker hearts ! The human heart is the most decisive weapon and the USA alienated it after 9/11 !

Pervez,

I read this one in the Pakistani mainstream media and

have just one thing to convey to you: "BE CAREFUL..."

If these basta_rds can get Bibi, people like you are....

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Pervej Hoodbhoy said:

[The militants are using America as a smokescreen for their real agenda. Created by poverty, a war-culture, and the macabre manipulations of Pakistan’s intelligence services, the militants want more than just to fight an aggressor from across the oceans. Their goal is to establish their writ over that of the Pakistani state]

Is it so hard fo people to see the goals of Islamists? It is simple, they want to rule and they want to rule as per the laws that suits them. If USA can help them in gaining control over large number of people (for whatever reasons), then USA is bringing good luck to them. But even if USA doesn't bring any good luck to them, there aim remains the same and they will keep working on it.

Till you don't have anyone opposing Islamists ideologically, moderate muslims do not effectively exist.

So till you have a equally strong ideology confronting Islamist's imperialism, you should consider number of moderates to be zero (and who will create that opposing ideology:-)).

#1 Posted by dryiabbasi....I agree with you,bunch of ignorants wants to impose their ideas on majority,its not the fight for Islam but bunch of ignorants think that girls should not go schools,people should not listen to the music,if Pakistani Army is sincere fighting terrorism then Army should go arrest or shoot leadership of Talibans who are hiding in rat holes of Pakistani Tribal areas.It's almost like a bad joke. A bus driver, a ski lift operator and a gym rat have turned the Islamic world's only nuclear-armed nation upside down. Its amazing that corrupt and rejected and failed policians like NAWAZ SHARIF ,QAZI HUSSAIN AND IMRAN KHAN are talking against operation,but where are these guys when Talibans blow themselves in suicide attacks and kill innocent people,why don't these politicians say anything when Talibans bomb and destroy girls schools?To me Talibans are just bunch of ignorant barbarians who does not have any knowlegde of our great religion Islam,they are black spot on our religion and nation.Honestly,to me this operation is just a show off,we know that Talibans are product of CIA AND ISI during soviet invasion of AFGHANISTAN,BUT ISI used these millitants for its benefits too in INDIA AND KASHMIR,if Govt of Pakistan and MILITARY is sincere to to fight terrorism then they should attack and shoot their leaders,brain washed Talibans are unaware of their leaders motives,unfortunatle there are over 40 million people in Pakistan who does not have even basic education,and those over 40 million people either dance with the tone of ignorant mullahs or corrupt politicians.
Mwaqar

"The Taliban are waging an armed struggle to remake society. They will keep fighting this war even if America were to miraculously evaporate into space. "

You got that one right Dr. Sahib. This war that is only starting now should have been fought 60 years ago, right after the inception of pakistan. Had society cleansed itself from what I call the "East India Company ki naajaiz aulaad" at that time we wouldn't have to swallow that bitter pill now. The corrupt, pro-western, ruling elite missed the golden chance to avoid the guillotines when it had the time to re-instate the independent judiciary, hang musharaf in the courtyard of Lal Masjid, and have had a free and fair election under an independent judiciary. The legitimate government thus elected would have saved Pakistan from the impending clamity. That chance is lost for good. The guillotines await.

true to its core pervaiz sahab. The monster is eating up Pakistani society under the viel of Islam. Anyone disagreeing with talibs r punishable to death. They have demolished the tribal society by killing 200 khans in fata who could posses a challenge to their occupation of tribal land. Barbarians donot know a thing but hate and bigotry. Its the time of to finish them off or be finished.

I couldn't agree with you more Dr Hoodbhoy. The politicians in Pakistan have to realise the gravity of the situation NOW or we shall perish forever behind long beards and burqas. It is essential that they drop all "useless" confrontation and move forward. But myopic, inept and selfish leaders like Nawaz Sharif do not have the wisdom and foresight to make such decisions...... What can I say, I can only despair. Yasir Abbasi.