A Journey Interrupted: Being Indian in Pakistan by Farzana Versey
Murtaza Shibli July 7, 2008
#221 Posted by bjkumar on December 28, 2009 8:10:27 pm
I read (most of) this book last year. My impressions are as follows:
(1) The book lacks clarity on what the author is trying to accomplish. It is never clear whether its purpose is (a) to provide an account of travels within Pakistan (it contains a passable account of the Pakistani society and especially of the subgroup that the author directly interacts with), (b) to narrate the author’s personal conflicts and anguishes rooted in a perceived inability to “belong” and at the perceived “rejection” (only by certain individuals) on each side of the border, or (c) to investigate the differing perceptions that individuals from each country hold about each others (again limited to the circles that the author interacts with).
(2) It was a mistake to tie in too many contemporary events – especially at the end. The problem with such accounts is they become obsolete almost immediately. They also distract from any longer-term value the book may have through developing insights unrelated to politics. In fact, there is very little in the historical account of events which is not already well-known to most readers of the subject matter so most of that narration is essentially wasted effort, however hard the effort level.
(3) The author includes an excess of personal musings and personal experiences in the book which don’t really belong there and would be only of limited interest to individuals who have interest in the subject matter alone. The reader gets distracted by frequent and abrupt shifts from one mode to another. In the end, the overall effect for many readers would be of having toiled through a lot of reading effort without having “gained” much in terms of any new insight.
(1) The book lacks clarity on what the author is trying to accomplish. It is never clear whether its purpose is (a) to provide an account of travels within Pakistan (it contains a passable account of the Pakistani society and especially of the subgroup that the author directly interacts with), (b) to narrate the author’s personal conflicts and anguishes rooted in a perceived inability to “belong” and at the perceived “rejection” (only by certain individuals) on each side of the border, or (c) to investigate the differing perceptions that individuals from each country hold about each others (again limited to the circles that the author interacts with).
(2) It was a mistake to tie in too many contemporary events – especially at the end. The problem with such accounts is they become obsolete almost immediately. They also distract from any longer-term value the book may have through developing insights unrelated to politics. In fact, there is very little in the historical account of events which is not already well-known to most readers of the subject matter so most of that narration is essentially wasted effort, however hard the effort level.
(3) The author includes an excess of personal musings and personal experiences in the book which don’t really belong there and would be only of limited interest to individuals who have interest in the subject matter alone. The reader gets distracted by frequent and abrupt shifts from one mode to another. In the end, the overall effect for many readers would be of having toiled through a lot of reading effort without having “gained” much in terms of any new insight.
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#220 Posted by tahir on July 19, 2008 10:25:15 am
Re: # 203 Hairy
What bike do you have? Is it a hard-tail, a dual-susser or a unicycle?
What bike do you have? Is it a hard-tail, a dual-susser or a unicycle?
#219 Posted by nkg on July 16, 2008 8:44:21 pm
Re: # 218
I have to learn history from arab slave,barbarians like you?
I have to learn history from arab slave,barbarians like you?
#218 Posted by Mystic on July 16, 2008 2:00:04 pm
Re: # 214
Nehru was son of clerk, who got some decent education, but did not possess any quality to lead.... "
nkg Oh Really Who ws Moti Lal nehru ..He had his dress laundered in Paris which is mythical but says about his qualificatin as Barrister before nehru jinnah And Gandh If i am not wrong .I beginning to doubt if you know Any history just gutter hindu ism who happens to be bengali .
No hindu bengali in sane mind will buy u r paranoid schzophrenic opinion
Nehru was son of clerk, who got some decent education, but did not possess any quality to lead.... "
nkg Oh Really Who ws Moti Lal nehru ..He had his dress laundered in Paris which is mythical but says about his qualificatin as Barrister before nehru jinnah And Gandh If i am not wrong .I beginning to doubt if you know Any history just gutter hindu ism who happens to be bengali .
No hindu bengali in sane mind will buy u r paranoid schzophrenic opinion
#217 Posted by giani_240 on July 16, 2008 1:41:33 pm
Farzana's "opinions" reminds me of the colloquial proverb "Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka"
#216 Posted by _arjun12 on July 16, 2008 1:21:23 pm
Vast majority of Muslim MPs to vote for N-deal
NEW DELHI: Despite Opposition hopes that Muslim MPs might find it difficult to vote for the nuclear deal with an 'anti-Islamic' Bush administration, it is becoming clear that the vast majority of them will be backing the government in the confidence vote.
Of the 37 Muslims who are currently Lok Sabha MPs, 26 are in parties that are part of the UPA or have declared their support for the government in the vote, while 11 are with anti-deal parties like the CPM, BSP, BJP or JD(U).
TOI spoke to most of them on Wednesday and found hardly any who see the issue as having anything to do with the community.
Most, on both sides of the divide, affirm that they will abide by their party's stand, those against the government dubbing the deal harmful to the country's interests and those in favour asserting that it would serve India's objectives.
Interestingly, an avowedly Muslim party like the Muslim League in Kerala is firmly in the pro-government camp and even Asaduddin Owaisi of the All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (AIMIM) seems likely to stick by the UPA, though he said, "MIM will take a decision...on July 19 after consultations with party president Sultan Salahuddin Owaisi."
Also, of the two Kashmir parties, Mehbooba Mufti from the PDP has committed her support to the government, while Omar Abdullah's National Conference too appears to be veering around to throwing its weight behind the deal.
There are some exceptions though. UP has the largest contingent of Muslim MPs with seven in the SP and four in the BSP. SP MP Munnawar Hasan has made it clear that he will vote against the government.
SP MP Munnawar Hasan said: "I will defy the party whip...By extending support to the deal, Mulayam has played with the sentiments of Muslims and his true face has now come to the fore." However, it's no secret that Hasan's differences with the party high command pre-date its hobnobbing with the Congress.
NEW DELHI: Despite Opposition hopes that Muslim MPs might find it difficult to vote for the nuclear deal with an 'anti-Islamic' Bush administration, it is becoming clear that the vast majority of them will be backing the government in the confidence vote.
Of the 37 Muslims who are currently Lok Sabha MPs, 26 are in parties that are part of the UPA or have declared their support for the government in the vote, while 11 are with anti-deal parties like the CPM, BSP, BJP or JD(U).
TOI spoke to most of them on Wednesday and found hardly any who see the issue as having anything to do with the community.
Most, on both sides of the divide, affirm that they will abide by their party's stand, those against the government dubbing the deal harmful to the country's interests and those in favour asserting that it would serve India's objectives.
Interestingly, an avowedly Muslim party like the Muslim League in Kerala is firmly in the pro-government camp and even Asaduddin Owaisi of the All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (AIMIM) seems likely to stick by the UPA, though he said, "MIM will take a decision...on July 19 after consultations with party president Sultan Salahuddin Owaisi."
Also, of the two Kashmir parties, Mehbooba Mufti from the PDP has committed her support to the government, while Omar Abdullah's National Conference too appears to be veering around to throwing its weight behind the deal.
There are some exceptions though. UP has the largest contingent of Muslim MPs with seven in the SP and four in the BSP. SP MP Munnawar Hasan has made it clear that he will vote against the government.
SP MP Munnawar Hasan said: "I will defy the party whip...By extending support to the deal, Mulayam has played with the sentiments of Muslims and his true face has now come to the fore." However, it's no secret that Hasan's differences with the party high command pre-date its hobnobbing with the Congress.
#215 Posted by nkg on July 15, 2008 12:09:53 am
Re: # 204
Vengat, Hari...
Harsh weather makes people physically strong...
Gurkhas and other people from hilly North East (even Kumaoni and Gahrwalis) are far better compared to rest of us...
Vengat, Hari...
Harsh weather makes people physically strong...
Gurkhas and other people from hilly North East (even Kumaoni and Gahrwalis) are far better compared to rest of us...
#214 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 11:54:18 pm
Re: # 206
Shah...
Are you moslem? Then it was expected from you.
Moslems had nothing to loose, as per as Bengal was concerned. They were anyhow crapy people and were at bottom in all fields (most them were farm labours). Only way to lift them was through lawlessness (Muhammed's preferred way). During partition, the way Gandhi tried to protect moslems/barbarians, caused immense damage to West Bengal. A thorough, systematic partition would have created nice, prosperous West Bengal, which could have contributed better to India as a whole.
To Majumder mahashaya:
Those who have migrated from East Bengal, should have taken some initiative for cleanup activity (stat of Assam and West Bengal should have looked more like Punjab than 1/2 katua country). Most of the rising political leaders were from East Bengal (Jyoti Basu, Bidhan Roy,Pramod Dasgupta...)....
I like Vivekananda most, due to his vision. He was knowing the devastating effect of mediaval arab barbarism on India. So, he stressed more on society building than getting rid of Brits from administration. Sveral times, he warned Sister Nivedita to distance herself from the political movement of Congress.....
Subhash Bose was emotional fool, who had no understanding about India as a whole, or any vision, what India will be after some time (say 50 years)....
Gandhi was tortured in South Africa, so, he had to take revenge as early as possible.....
Nehru was son of clerk, who got some decent education, but did not possess any quality to lead....
Shah...
Are you moslem? Then it was expected from you.
Moslems had nothing to loose, as per as Bengal was concerned. They were anyhow crapy people and were at bottom in all fields (most them were farm labours). Only way to lift them was through lawlessness (Muhammed's preferred way). During partition, the way Gandhi tried to protect moslems/barbarians, caused immense damage to West Bengal. A thorough, systematic partition would have created nice, prosperous West Bengal, which could have contributed better to India as a whole.
To Majumder mahashaya:
Those who have migrated from East Bengal, should have taken some initiative for cleanup activity (stat of Assam and West Bengal should have looked more like Punjab than 1/2 katua country). Most of the rising political leaders were from East Bengal (Jyoti Basu, Bidhan Roy,Pramod Dasgupta...)....
I like Vivekananda most, due to his vision. He was knowing the devastating effect of mediaval arab barbarism on India. So, he stressed more on society building than getting rid of Brits from administration. Sveral times, he warned Sister Nivedita to distance herself from the political movement of Congress.....
Subhash Bose was emotional fool, who had no understanding about India as a whole, or any vision, what India will be after some time (say 50 years)....
Gandhi was tortured in South Africa, so, he had to take revenge as early as possible.....
Nehru was son of clerk, who got some decent education, but did not possess any quality to lead....
#213 Posted by satyamvada on July 14, 2008 10:47:01 am
As I pointed out in #143, #145 & #146, the elites had indulged in a land grab in pakistan while holding onto property in India.
FV posts some irrelevant article about Aga Khan supporting the british. What is important is the Agakhan being president of the muslim league and advocating pakistan!
Coffee at 225Rs is probably needed, to mask the stench of hypocrisy.
#212 Posted by _arjun11 on July 14, 2008 9:14:11 am
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#211 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 9:09:39 am
"Majumder...
But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad" NKG not majumders statement
But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad" NKG not majumders statement
#210 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:33:59 am
Re: # 198
Majumder...
But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad
Who says ppl are bad .The second generation like inmost cases just starts living on money and fame earned by there fathers and ancestors.Bihar now produces more ias ifs ips than bengal .who would you give discredit for that ?
Majumder...
But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad
Who says ppl are bad .The second generation like inmost cases just starts living on money and fame earned by there fathers and ancestors.Bihar now produces more ias ifs ips than bengal .who would you give discredit for that ?
#209 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:22:32 am
Re: # 166
Lack of discipline is the major reason for downfall of cow belt, which, in my opinion started with islamic invastion ( chaotic society)...
British ruled for 200yrs AFTER islamic invasion .You want to blame your great great grand father for your upbringing and how you turned out
#196
You are right all noble and awards knight hood does not mean too much .There always very close second .And evey body knows no one antagonist to british or west should cry about it .Sweden U.K. America will be masters a long as we remain slave atleast looking for thee APPROVAL
Lack of discipline is the major reason for downfall of cow belt, which, in my opinion started with islamic invastion ( chaotic society)...
British ruled for 200yrs AFTER islamic invasion .You want to blame your great great grand father for your upbringing and how you turned out
#196
You are right all noble and awards knight hood does not mean too much .There always very close second .And evey body knows no one antagonist to british or west should cry about it .Sweden U.K. America will be masters a long as we remain slave atleast looking for thee APPROVAL
#208 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:11:10 am
'Regarding lazy Bengalis, I can show you various fields, where Bengal was leading upto 1960s- Education,Industry ( Steel, Manufacturing, Jute, Chemical). So, suddenly Bengali population had become lazy after partition?'
Comunist did not come in to power till late 60s .Who would you blame if things were dandy BEFORE them Yes u are right w Bangal was the best Industrialised state whare WHOLE india found job and worked hard and laziness of one was compensated and evened out in averge .But Unions and exit of labour for other states industry including Mumbais textile & manufacturing .All Communist did was unions which closed all industres and drove away the important aspect of al industry and development by parochialism
Comunist did not come in to power till late 60s .Who would you blame if things were dandy BEFORE them Yes u are right w Bangal was the best Industrialised state whare WHOLE india found job and worked hard and laziness of one was compensated and evened out in averge .But Unions and exit of labour for other states industry including Mumbais textile & manufacturing .All Communist did was unions which closed all industres and drove away the important aspect of al industry and development by parochialism
#207 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:01:43 am
"Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders..."
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
#206 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:01:43 am
"Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders..."
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
#205 Posted by Shah2 on July 14, 2008 8:01:43 am
"Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders..."
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
Partition did not affect only one community did it ?Its unfortunate for those people .By far Indian & West Bengal much better job of rehabilitating and helping than East bengali who just benefited passively from the migrants.
If any body B.C. ROY who did most for W Bengal. anyother states chief minister after independence were worthless corrupt dictators .canyou give any other chief minister..like b c Roy who selflessly devoted b/c he was unmarried (and had noimmediate family although he did have lovers .
All the other Chef ministes were chor Kairon in Punjab Patnaik in Orissa C.B Gupta in U.P ,Sahay in Bihar .
I dont say all congress were honorable and honest but anarchy violence of 60 /70 used to usurp power by violent means by communist has not resulted in any bettr state .
#204 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 7:48:22 am
Re: # 203
Harimau,
Sounds difficult but still exciting...I am not the least surprised about the Mech guy...A couple of batch-mates are running a Subway shop there in the US. They have got good grades but dunno why...
But the serious question is, why are we Indians bad in stamina? Theres something seriously wrong...
Harimau,
Sounds difficult but still exciting...I am not the least surprised about the Mech guy...A couple of batch-mates are running a Subway shop there in the US. They have got good grades but dunno why...
But the serious question is, why are we Indians bad in stamina? Theres something seriously wrong...
#203 Posted by harimau on July 14, 2008 6:54:00 am
Ref vengatramanan #194
[Harimau,
How did your cycling expedition go?]
Quite badly. Our team of 4 cyclists was struck down by intestinal flu (polite word for diarrhea). Only one member of our team completed the entire distance. I couldn't ride at all on the last day. Another (just 32 years old) threw up from the exertion of climbing up the mountain pass on a bike and gave up. One more guy also gave up in disgust when the printed chart gave wrong information about the distance to the next rest stop where he could get food to refuel his body. I saw a young girl in her early 20s getting totally disoriented from the effort and who had to be taken by ambulance to the medical station.
The food vendors were fewer than in the past, leading to long, long lines at rest stops. This meant that your knees froze up in the cold and you couldn't ride again.
I don't know if we had that salmonella poisoning everybody in the US is still talking about.
It is sheer stubborness that makes us do this year after year! We will probably be back next year.
You would love this: The ride started out in Durango, Colorado. The food service manager at the local college is an Indian, a Mech Engg graduate from MNM Jain Engineering College on Old Mahabalipuram Road in Chennai, not too far from my home. (Don't ask how a Mech Engg graduate turned out to be a food service manager... I didn't ask him). So, there was an Indian curry dinner available there during the community dinner. Even in far-off Durango, there is the possibility of talking to someone in Tamil!
[Harimau,
How did your cycling expedition go?]
Quite badly. Our team of 4 cyclists was struck down by intestinal flu (polite word for diarrhea). Only one member of our team completed the entire distance. I couldn't ride at all on the last day. Another (just 32 years old) threw up from the exertion of climbing up the mountain pass on a bike and gave up. One more guy also gave up in disgust when the printed chart gave wrong information about the distance to the next rest stop where he could get food to refuel his body. I saw a young girl in her early 20s getting totally disoriented from the effort and who had to be taken by ambulance to the medical station.
The food vendors were fewer than in the past, leading to long, long lines at rest stops. This meant that your knees froze up in the cold and you couldn't ride again.
I don't know if we had that salmonella poisoning everybody in the US is still talking about.
It is sheer stubborness that makes us do this year after year! We will probably be back next year.
You would love this: The ride started out in Durango, Colorado. The food service manager at the local college is an Indian, a Mech Engg graduate from MNM Jain Engineering College on Old Mahabalipuram Road in Chennai, not too far from my home. (Don't ask how a Mech Engg graduate turned out to be a food service manager... I didn't ask him). So, there was an Indian curry dinner available there during the community dinner. Even in far-off Durango, there is the possibility of talking to someone in Tamil!
#202 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 6:41:54 am
hamidm....
Were you talking about this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_o3nc7MnB4
Were you talking about this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_o3nc7MnB4
#201 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 5:48:50 am
http://www.q-par.com/capabilities/antennas/microwave-horns-the-first-hundred-yea rs
#200 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 5:21:14 am
Re: # 197
Majumder...
Electronic and communication are different subjects. Two works are different (1 microwave communication and 2 use of solid state device as sensor)....
Marcony was using radio wave (high wavelength), which can not penetrate ionsphere. He was using the work of another "chela" of Swami Vivekananda, Nocola Tesla. Marcony was kind of colaborator...
You can not use radio wave for satellite communication. Microwave (wave length less than 3cm) is suitable for that. You need separate set of equipments for that - Horn Antenna, Wave Guide, Magnetrons... Other uses of microwave is of heating ( Microwave Oven). J C Bose had demonstrated that also (He had exploded gun powder using microwave)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave
He provided fundamentals of microwave engineering. Ask any member of IEEE. They will be better judge of his work....
http://www.tuc.nrao.edu/~demerson/bose/bose.html
Majumder...
Electronic and communication are different subjects. Two works are different (1 microwave communication and 2 use of solid state device as sensor)....
Marcony was using radio wave (high wavelength), which can not penetrate ionsphere. He was using the work of another "chela" of Swami Vivekananda, Nocola Tesla. Marcony was kind of colaborator...
You can not use radio wave for satellite communication. Microwave (wave length less than 3cm) is suitable for that. You need separate set of equipments for that - Horn Antenna, Wave Guide, Magnetrons... Other uses of microwave is of heating ( Microwave Oven). J C Bose had demonstrated that also (He had exploded gun powder using microwave)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave
He provided fundamentals of microwave engineering. Ask any member of IEEE. They will be better judge of his work....
http://www.tuc.nrao.edu/~demerson/bose/bose.html
#199 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 5:06:12 am
Can I ask if you've actually read any Tagore, Majumdar, either in translation or in the original?
#198 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 4:59:24 am
Re: # 190
Hari, Vengat....
Arundhati Roy is one book wonder. Literaly that book is quite ordinary. She is more engaged with something else...
The way...
Majumder...
Brits established almost similar education infrastructure in Chennai as well. May be Christian missionaries were little more active in Calcutta. But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad...
Hari, Vengat....
Arundhati Roy is one book wonder. Literaly that book is quite ordinary. She is more engaged with something else...
The way...
Majumder...
Brits established almost similar education infrastructure in Chennai as well. May be Christian missionaries were little more active in Calcutta. But the way Bengal progressed from 1870s, it definitely shows, people were not very bad...
#197 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 4:52:52 am
Nkg moshai,
(J C Bose was inventor of Microwave communication)
It was also discovered by Marconi separately. Marconi was able to commercialise his invention, JCB didnt. Not his fault though.
(He desereved 2 Nobels for his contribution in electronics and communication engineering, each for both the sections)
Till I last checked, the Nobel Foundation hadnt introduced electronics and communication as two sperate categories.
(He even denounced his Knighthood for Jaliwalanbag massacre.)
That happened in 1919 after he had received the Nobel.
Regards
(J C Bose was inventor of Microwave communication)
It was also discovered by Marconi separately. Marconi was able to commercialise his invention, JCB didnt. Not his fault though.
(He desereved 2 Nobels for his contribution in electronics and communication engineering, each for both the sections)
Till I last checked, the Nobel Foundation hadnt introduced electronics and communication as two sperate categories.
(He even denounced his Knighthood for Jaliwalanbag massacre.)
That happened in 1919 after he had received the Nobel.
Regards
#196 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 4:46:49 am
Re: # 191
Majumder....
J C Bose was inventor of Microwave communication- entire satelite based communication is based on his work. He was one of the founding father of solid state electronics....
He desereved 2 Nobels for his contribution in electronics and communication engineering (1 each for both the sections)....
Neville Francis Mott, Nobel Laureate in 1977 for his own contributions to solid-state electronics, remarked that "J.C. Bose was at least 60 years ahead of his time" and "In fact, he had anticipated the existence of P-type and N-type semiconductors." This is copied from WIKI...
If Ronald Ross can get Nobel, why not U N Brahmachary (for Urea Stibamine)?
Regarding RNT, he was against partition of Bengal and his valiant effort resultant in revocation of it (1911). He even denounced his Knighthood for Jaliwalanbag massacre.So, his political inclination towards British Govt. is rediculous....
Anyhow, comment about R N T is utter stupid. He was one of the greatest thinker from India for last 500-600 years...
There are many more, who deserved Nobel in literature ( Bibhuti Bhusan Bandypadhyay....)
Majumder....
J C Bose was inventor of Microwave communication- entire satelite based communication is based on his work. He was one of the founding father of solid state electronics....
He desereved 2 Nobels for his contribution in electronics and communication engineering (1 each for both the sections)....
Neville Francis Mott, Nobel Laureate in 1977 for his own contributions to solid-state electronics, remarked that "J.C. Bose was at least 60 years ahead of his time" and "In fact, he had anticipated the existence of P-type and N-type semiconductors." This is copied from WIKI...
If Ronald Ross can get Nobel, why not U N Brahmachary (for Urea Stibamine)?
Regarding RNT, he was against partition of Bengal and his valiant effort resultant in revocation of it (1911). He even denounced his Knighthood for Jaliwalanbag massacre.So, his political inclination towards British Govt. is rediculous....
Anyhow, comment about R N T is utter stupid. He was one of the greatest thinker from India for last 500-600 years...
There are many more, who deserved Nobel in literature ( Bibhuti Bhusan Bandypadhyay....)
#195 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 4:29:21 am
Re: # 192
nb;proly Maju Anna is trying to be irreverential...
nb;proly Maju Anna is trying to be irreverential...
#194 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 4:25:57 am
Harimau,
How did your cycling expedition go?
Happy to see you back Sir...:)
How did your cycling expedition go?
Happy to see you back Sir...:)
#192 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 4:12:26 am
Are you being ignorant or deliberately provocative or both, majumdar?
#191 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 4:06:07 am
Nkg moshai,
Only SN Bose was exceptional. The rest of the lot were pedestrian fellows. RNT got a Nobel 'cos the Brits wanted to placate the Bong Hindoo who was a bit upset with 1905 Partition.
Regards
Only SN Bose was exceptional. The rest of the lot were pedestrian fellows. RNT got a Nobel 'cos the Brits wanted to placate the Bong Hindoo who was a bit upset with 1905 Partition.
Regards
#190 Posted by harimau on July 14, 2008 3:59:18 am
Ref vengatramanan #178
[...Pity he doesn't know about Kerala's intellectuals.]
The worst of the entire lot: Arundhati Roy, Bengali intellectual-wannabe with a Malayalee mother!
[...Pity he doesn't know about Kerala's intellectuals.]
The worst of the entire lot: Arundhati Roy, Bengali intellectual-wannabe with a Malayalee mother!
#189 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 3:56:31 am
Re: # 182
Vengat...
Partition definitely changed the priorities and created some strange situation for West Bengal. Non moslems in current day BD was very rich. They used to control administration and finance. Suddenly they have started pouring in neighbouring areas of Calcutta without taking a single penny. Entire administration was got screwed up.
Exodus of the Brits should not have effected that much, the way Bengal had fallen....
Majumder: The kind of work these people carried out are exceptional in world standard (each equivalent to Nobel)......
Vengat...
Partition definitely changed the priorities and created some strange situation for West Bengal. Non moslems in current day BD was very rich. They used to control administration and finance. Suddenly they have started pouring in neighbouring areas of Calcutta without taking a single penny. Entire administration was got screwed up.
Exodus of the Brits should not have effected that much, the way Bengal had fallen....
Majumder: The kind of work these people carried out are exceptional in world standard (each equivalent to Nobel)......
#188 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 3:24:23 am
Vengat, Majumder...
Kerala has historical connection with Gulf.
Bengal was very prosperous place until partition...
People from Orissa, Bihar and other parts of India used to come to work in Bengal. It was leader in Industry. It has become rich to rag. So you can not compare economic fall of Bengal with rise of Kerala...
Regarding effect of partition, West Bengal (after partition politically weak), had to feed additional 30% people, which is no mean task....
WI use Urdoo to the moslems in the sub-continent. It is due to their nature (1/4 Indian - 3/4 Middle eastern)...
Kerala has historical connection with Gulf.
Bengal was very prosperous place until partition...
People from Orissa, Bihar and other parts of India used to come to work in Bengal. It was leader in Industry. It has become rich to rag. So you can not compare economic fall of Bengal with rise of Kerala...
Regarding effect of partition, West Bengal (after partition politically weak), had to feed additional 30% people, which is no mean task....
WI use Urdoo to the moslems in the sub-continent. It is due to their nature (1/4 Indian - 3/4 Middle eastern)...
#187 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 14, 2008 1:51:24 am
Takes a journey through the Pakistani mind using representative samples of people.
Versey's journey takes the reader through the Wagah border and into the heart of Pakistan.
this isthe two line plurb on all the websites. The above is taken from http://www.word-power.co.uk/books/indian-express-team-I9788172236045/
And its the same on waterstones.co.uk
Versey's journey takes the reader through the Wagah border and into the heart of Pakistan.
this isthe two line plurb on all the websites. The above is taken from http://www.word-power.co.uk/books/indian-express-team-I9788172236045/
And its the same on waterstones.co.uk
#186 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 1:44:19 am
I noticed that, I wonder why we didn't hear about that one. You don't think it's the same book under a different name, do you, dots?
#185 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 14, 2008 1:42:24 am
BTW this book apparently has a similar theme to the the one under review in the article...thinking icon...
#184 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 1:41:29 am
Nb di,
so I don't know why you're bringing Urdu into this.
According to Nkg moshai all subcontinental Muslims are Urdoo speaking Moslem barbarians, that's why!!!
Regards
so I don't know why you're bringing Urdu into this.
According to Nkg moshai all subcontinental Muslims are Urdoo speaking Moslem barbarians, that's why!!!
Regards
#183 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 14, 2008 1:41:15 am
actually her other book published this year as well called
The Indian Express Team
is available. (amazon.com, amazon.co.uk and waterstones.co.uk)
The Indian Express Team
is available. (amazon.com, amazon.co.uk and waterstones.co.uk)
#182 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 1:38:51 am
Nkg,
Are you trying to say that West Bengal can produce more intellects only in a certain controlled environment? Are you trying to say that if all of the problems you are talking about for Bengal's woes could be solved, Bengal will be back to its glory days?
Are you trying to say that West Bengal can produce more intellects only in a certain controlled environment? Are you trying to say that if all of the problems you are talking about for Bengal's woes could be solved, Bengal will be back to its glory days?
#181 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 14, 2008 1:38:11 am
yes it isnt. Sad. It is not on amazon.com either.
#180 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 1:37:51 am
Majumdar, Partition got rid of Bengali Muslims who did not speak Urdu, so I don't know why you're bringing Urdu into this.
#179 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 1:36:21 am
Where is the difference, Majumdar? It's only in your mind. You have heard these stories so many times that you believe them. I suggest you look further into this, if you're interested.
#178 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 1:30:52 am
Maju Anna,
"(Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. )
So why cant Bongs work as workers elsewhere?"
Thumbs up icon....If Nkg considers these professions lowly then where is the relevance of CPM to Bengal and Bengalis...Pity he doesn't know about Kerala's intellectuals. It is just that nkg knows no more than a few villages of Bengal.
FYI rural TN is far developed than any part of Bengal
"(Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. )
So why cant Bongs work as workers elsewhere?"
Thumbs up icon....If Nkg considers these professions lowly then where is the relevance of CPM to Bengal and Bengalis...Pity he doesn't know about Kerala's intellectuals. It is just that nkg knows no more than a few villages of Bengal.
FYI rural TN is far developed than any part of Bengal
#177 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 1:26:12 am
Nb di,
GOI failed the Kashmiri Pandits. Bong Hindoos failed themselves. That is the difference.
Nkg moshai,
(Can you find one Bamboo, which can create Sir J C Bose, Satyen Bose, U N Brahmachari, R N Tagore, Biren Mukherjee, Alamohan Das ...?)
Exceptions, sir.
(Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. )
So why cant Bongs work as workers elsewhere?
(The catastrope, partition created on Bengal is major reason behind backwardness.)
How? Partition got rid of "Urdoo speaking Moslems" who are barbarians as per you. So how did it create backwardness.
(punjabis of east cleaned the area for West Punjabi refugees.)
So why didnt Bongs do it? Is that the Punjoos fault?
Regards
GOI failed the Kashmiri Pandits. Bong Hindoos failed themselves. That is the difference.
Nkg moshai,
(Can you find one Bamboo, which can create Sir J C Bose, Satyen Bose, U N Brahmachari, R N Tagore, Biren Mukherjee, Alamohan Das ...?)
Exceptions, sir.
(Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. )
So why cant Bongs work as workers elsewhere?
(The catastrope, partition created on Bengal is major reason behind backwardness.)
How? Partition got rid of "Urdoo speaking Moslems" who are barbarians as per you. So how did it create backwardness.
(punjabis of east cleaned the area for West Punjabi refugees.)
So why didnt Bongs do it? Is that the Punjoos fault?
Regards
#176 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 1:24:56 am
Dots, not many people have read the book, all the carry on on this page is a reaction to the author.
It's not available on amazon.co.uk.
It's not available on amazon.co.uk.
#175 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 14, 2008 1:17:25 am
one thing I cannot figure out, after a quick perusal of the 174 interacts, is this - Okay is this is a good book to read and should I rush to amazon.co.uk and buy it?
#174 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 1:09:47 am
Majumdar, why did Kashmiri Pandits not force the Indian government to protect them?
What kind of warped logic is this? It is the fault of the victims that they were not protected?
What kind of warped logic is this? It is the fault of the victims that they were not protected?
#173 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 1:09:05 am
Re: # 170
Rural Bengal is better connected (with brick covered roads) level. Rural poverty is much less. Literacy in quite comparable in rural areas with urban areas....
Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. Most of the nurshes, house maids, drivers, sweepers etc. in middle east are from Kerala...
Rural Bengal is better connected (with brick covered roads) level. Rural poverty is much less. Literacy in quite comparable in rural areas with urban areas....
Kerala economy is 50% Gulf money. Most of the nurshes, house maids, drivers, sweepers etc. in middle east are from Kerala...
#172 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 12:53:46 am
Re: # 169
Majumder...
Bamboo do not create wealth and industry. It can create group of disgruntled labour...
Can you find one Bamboo, which can create Sir J C Bose, Satyen Bose, U N Brahmachari, R N Tagore, Biren Mukherjee, Alamohan Das ...?
The catastrope, partition created on Bengal is major reason behind backwardness. Furthermore, during Naxalite period, Congress killed an entire generation of students.....
Regarding Punjab, punjabis of east cleaned the area for West Punjabi refugees. Furthermore, large area of Delhi and neighbouring areas were used for punjabi refugees. The amout of logistics and other support GOI provided to Punjabis was good enough.
Regarding Bengal, we have not cleared it (kicking out moslems) for east bengalee refugees. Neither refugees carried out clean up activity. So, the result ....
East Punjab - Muslims- 1.56%
West Bengal - Muslims- 25.00%
Majumder...
Bamboo do not create wealth and industry. It can create group of disgruntled labour...
Can you find one Bamboo, which can create Sir J C Bose, Satyen Bose, U N Brahmachari, R N Tagore, Biren Mukherjee, Alamohan Das ...?
The catastrope, partition created on Bengal is major reason behind backwardness. Furthermore, during Naxalite period, Congress killed an entire generation of students.....
Regarding Punjab, punjabis of east cleaned the area for West Punjabi refugees. Furthermore, large area of Delhi and neighbouring areas were used for punjabi refugees. The amout of logistics and other support GOI provided to Punjabis was good enough.
Regarding Bengal, we have not cleared it (kicking out moslems) for east bengalee refugees. Neither refugees carried out clean up activity. So, the result ....
East Punjab - Muslims- 1.56%
West Bengal - Muslims- 25.00%
#171 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 12:19:06 am
Nb di,
I guess you are implying that GOI spent lots on Punjoo/Sindhi refugees but not on Bongs. So why did the Bongs not force the GOI to spend on Bong refugees at par with what they spend on Punjoo refugees?
Regards
I guess you are implying that GOI spent lots on Punjoo/Sindhi refugees but not on Bongs. So why did the Bongs not force the GOI to spend on Bong refugees at par with what they spend on Punjoo refugees?
Regards
#170 Posted by vengatramanan on July 14, 2008 12:18:12 am
nkg,
"There are stark difference between a village in Karnataka and a village in West Bengal. That will tell you the story."
Can you elaborate on this?
"There are stark difference between a village in Karnataka and a village in West Bengal. That will tell you the story."
Can you elaborate on this?
#169 Posted by majumdar on July 14, 2008 12:17:01 am
Nkg,
So let me ask you a counter question. What happened in 1960s 'cos of which Bengal suddenly became a backwater?
My guess: Until 1947 bamboo applied by goras forced Bongs to work hard and prolly this work ethic worked till 1960s. But by then the Bongs natural indolence took over and he started voting for CPM which promised lots of strikes, no work.
Kerala's population density is even higher than WB but Kerala is at par or prolly better than WB.
Regards
So let me ask you a counter question. What happened in 1960s 'cos of which Bengal suddenly became a backwater?
My guess: Until 1947 bamboo applied by goras forced Bongs to work hard and prolly this work ethic worked till 1960s. But by then the Bongs natural indolence took over and he started voting for CPM which promised lots of strikes, no work.
Kerala's population density is even higher than WB but Kerala is at par or prolly better than WB.
Regards
#168 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 12:14:42 am
BTW, Majumdar, since all this is clearly new to you, I would recommend 'The Hungry Tide' By Amitav Ghosh.
#167 Posted by nb on July 14, 2008 12:12:07 am
Majumdar, it's easy to blame people. This doesn't have anything to do with this topic, but since you have brought this up, why don't you look at the amounts of money spent on refugee relief on each side of India after partition? I suppose you don't know the story of the Dandakaranya camp and of Morichjhapi. It is so easy to blame the victim, is it not? It is appropriate then that you are blaming the victim on a board about Farzana's book, dedicated as she has been to blaming the (albeit only non-Muslim) victim.
#166 Posted by nkg on July 14, 2008 12:06:16 am
Re: # 164
Vengat....
Yes, after ruling for 30 years, events like Singur happened. I don't deny that. This type of occassional arrogance is exibited by almost all political parties.
CPI(M) excelled in rural empowerment. The way the state Govt. manages inflation with such high population density, it is almost kind of miracle. Feeding and educating 8 crore people from 85000 sq KM land areas, is definitely high achievement....
I have seen villages in Karnataka. There are stark difference between a village in Karnataka and a village in West Bengal. That will tell you the story.
The basic attitude of a society, to large extent, results in their achievement (mineral rich Arab countries are different). The fundamentals of civilisation is almost established - discipline, hard work, open minded...
Lack of discipline is the major reason for downfall of cow belt, which, in my opinion started with islamic invastion ( chaotic society)...
Vengat....
Yes, after ruling for 30 years, events like Singur happened. I don't deny that. This type of occassional arrogance is exibited by almost all political parties.
CPI(M) excelled in rural empowerment. The way the state Govt. manages inflation with such high population density, it is almost kind of miracle. Feeding and educating 8 crore people from 85000 sq KM land areas, is definitely high achievement....
I have seen villages in Karnataka. There are stark difference between a village in Karnataka and a village in West Bengal. That will tell you the story.
The basic attitude of a society, to large extent, results in their achievement (mineral rich Arab countries are different). The fundamentals of civilisation is almost established - discipline, hard work, open minded...
Lack of discipline is the major reason for downfall of cow belt, which, in my opinion started with islamic invastion ( chaotic society)...
#165 Posted by nkg on July 13, 2008 11:49:53 pm
Re: # 159
Majumder....
1st point was very very wrong. The burden of refugess was quite large compared to Punjab. High population density in bordering districts is living testimonial of it. Calcutta and surrounding areas died due to over population.
Regarding lazy Bengalis, I can show you various fields, where Bengal was leading upto 1960s- Education,Industry ( Steel, Manufacturing, Jute, Chemical). So, suddenly Bengali population had become lazy after partition?
In rural areas, where everyone knows every one, you can survive depending on handful of musclemans....This tactic can work in Calcutta or big metroes...
Majumder....
1st point was very very wrong. The burden of refugess was quite large compared to Punjab. High population density in bordering districts is living testimonial of it. Calcutta and surrounding areas died due to over population.
Regarding lazy Bengalis, I can show you various fields, where Bengal was leading upto 1960s- Education,Industry ( Steel, Manufacturing, Jute, Chemical). So, suddenly Bengali population had become lazy after partition?
In rural areas, where everyone knows every one, you can survive depending on handful of musclemans....This tactic can work in Calcutta or big metroes...
#164 Posted by vengatramanan on July 13, 2008 11:47:51 pm
West Bengal's glory can exist only in the minds of people like nkg. Everybody in this country has been witnessing CPM massacres during elections and the latest Singur et al...
nkg thinks absolutism is possible. He thinks a short period past is the only yardstick to judge Muslims and cow belt people. I don't see a difference between the 'Thanksday Giving' turkey's mindset before the D day and nkg's. I dont blame him rather I blame the 'problem of induction'.
nkg thinks absolutism is possible. He thinks a short period past is the only yardstick to judge Muslims and cow belt people. I don't see a difference between the 'Thanksday Giving' turkey's mindset before the D day and nkg's. I dont blame him rather I blame the 'problem of induction'.
#163 Posted by vengatramanan on July 13, 2008 11:42:10 pm
Maju Anna,
""Cow belt" is a pejorative reference to Northern India (Bihar/UP/MP/Rajasthan also called BIMARU) where cows are raised on a large scale and revered. This part of India has appalling human development indices."
Human development indices doesnt mean anything. Things like education and healthcare are just nice to have but not very important.
""Cow belt" is a pejorative reference to Northern India (Bihar/UP/MP/Rajasthan also called BIMARU) where cows are raised on a large scale and revered. This part of India has appalling human development indices."
Human development indices doesnt mean anything. Things like education and healthcare are just nice to have but not very important.
#162 Posted by MatloobZaman on July 13, 2008 10:47:41 pm
Re: # 155
Is that what Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru fell victim to? and, later followed by Indira jee & her two sons?
They were Kashmiri too, weren't they?
Is that what Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru fell victim to? and, later followed by Indira jee & her two sons?
They were Kashmiri too, weren't they?
#161 Posted by majumdar on July 13, 2008 10:25:45 pm
Cheema sahib,
"Cow belt" is a pejorative reference to Northern India (Bihar/UP/MP/Rajasthan also called BIMARU) where cows are raised on a large scale and revered. This part of India has appalling human development indices.
Regards
"Cow belt" is a pejorative reference to Northern India (Bihar/UP/MP/Rajasthan also called BIMARU) where cows are raised on a large scale and revered. This part of India has appalling human development indices.
Regards
#160 Posted by akcheema on July 13, 2008 9:59:48 pm
Re: # 159; majumdar
who are these "cows" and why do they wear "belts"??
who are these "cows" and why do they wear "belts"??
#159 Posted by majumdar on July 13, 2008 9:52:59 pm
Nkg moshai,
(Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders...)
It was no worse impacted by Partition than Punjab was but Punjab pulled itself out very well. But I guess that is 'cos the Punjoos are a hard working and intelligent people. Unlike Bongs.
Bengal was destroyed by its own Commie leaders who were elected by its own people.
(Regarding CPI(M), I have seen how beautifully, they empowered of local governments. That is core of democracy....)
CPM has done a few good things like land reforms but now it has become a party of goondas. They empower local governments only if they in turn support CPM. Otherwise Nandigram.
Regards
(Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders...)
It was no worse impacted by Partition than Punjab was but Punjab pulled itself out very well. But I guess that is 'cos the Punjoos are a hard working and intelligent people. Unlike Bongs.
Bengal was destroyed by its own Commie leaders who were elected by its own people.
(Regarding CPI(M), I have seen how beautifully, they empowered of local governments. That is core of democracy....)
CPM has done a few good things like land reforms but now it has become a party of goondas. They empower local governments only if they in turn support CPM. Otherwise Nandigram.
Regards
#158 Posted by nkg on July 13, 2008 9:51:12 pm
#157 Contd...
So, please try to refrain from creating a cow belt equivalent of Pakistan. The consequence will be devastating...
So, please try to refrain from creating a cow belt equivalent of Pakistan. The consequence will be devastating...
#157 Posted by nkg on July 13, 2008 9:48:46 pm
#156 contd....
Sorry, the comment should be of Will Durant...
"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe’s languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all" -Will Durant
Sorry, the comment should be of Will Durant...
"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe’s languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all" -Will Durant
#156 Posted by nkg on July 13, 2008 9:44:38 pm
Re: # 128
Sanatani...
This is your problem man....
I was in Delhi for couple of months. I know, how horrible/uncivilised the people are. After night 8pm, it was not safe for girls/womenfolk to freely roam around in the public places. I don't think it is worse than Pakistan.
Regarding Shyamaprasad. As per, I know, he had not started any religious movement. He was aware of pathetic consequences of making space for the urdoo/islamic barbarism. Wanted to prevent it. That automatically does not imply Ram temple movement. India is such a multicultural country, if you try to impose Lord Rama, you will create Islamic equivalent in India. It will be no different from Pakistan. Affirmation is something different than aggression. You people should learn from Swami Vivekananda's/Dayananda Saraswati's preachings.
Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders...
Regarding CPI(M), I have seen how beautifully, they empowered of local governments. That is core of democracy....
I think your vision of India is something different. May be little more travelling and knowledge will make you to change your Ram centric,cow belt view....
"After the conversations about Indian philosophy, some of the ideas of Quantum Physics that had seemed so crazy suddenly made much more sense...." -W. Heisenberg
Sanatani...
This is your problem man....
I was in Delhi for couple of months. I know, how horrible/uncivilised the people are. After night 8pm, it was not safe for girls/womenfolk to freely roam around in the public places. I don't think it is worse than Pakistan.
Regarding Shyamaprasad. As per, I know, he had not started any religious movement. He was aware of pathetic consequences of making space for the urdoo/islamic barbarism. Wanted to prevent it. That automatically does not imply Ram temple movement. India is such a multicultural country, if you try to impose Lord Rama, you will create Islamic equivalent in India. It will be no different from Pakistan. Affirmation is something different than aggression. You people should learn from Swami Vivekananda's/Dayananda Saraswati's preachings.
Regardibg Bengal, it was the worst effected area of partition and was destroyed by jelous cow belt congress leaders...
Regarding CPI(M), I have seen how beautifully, they empowered of local governments. That is core of democracy....
I think your vision of India is something different. May be little more travelling and knowledge will make you to change your Ram centric,cow belt view....
"After the conversations about Indian philosophy, some of the ideas of Quantum Physics that had seemed so crazy suddenly made much more sense...." -W. Heisenberg
#155 Posted by laddu on July 13, 2008 5:16:35 pm
Ethnic Cleansing of Hindus who refused to convert in Kashmir!!
#154 Posted by satya100 on July 13, 2008 11:33:20 am
Open letter to moderate and liberal Muslims such as Senna
This response was to mulla mandar multankar aka masadi sahab, but it applies to you all. Would you please take new Indianized names such as Mulla Shekhar Lahorkar or Mulli (whatever female equivalent of mulla) Seema Mumbaikar?
Sorry, if I hurt your feelings. Generally religion, sex and money (RSM) are avoided in discussion. It's little easy to talk about Benezir, Britany, Birla and Bhangra. But for mst of us, yours truly included, RSM occupies big chunk of our mind, almost defining our identity.
First, it is not Islam that "captures" political power, the fools do that in the name of Islam,
Who are those fools? Are they non-Islamic? To capture political power "the fools (TF)" need faith enhancing pirs, courtier writers and King-Nama creating historians and foot soldiers and dhimmi tax (Ziziya) paying financier and Jakat (tax) and Chanda paying believers, as per my understanding. Please correct me.
second the ability to colonize the life world was perfected by the capitalists of today and not by the Muslims of the Middle Ages who even when they got political power did not by fact or defintion get rid of the alternative identities that coexisted, at the time of partition the Hindus outnumbered the Muslims of India, and did not consider themselves subservient to them,
Let us leave capitalist of today aside for time being. Hope we are not playing blame game. Do you mean Aurangzeb did not happen? Shahajan was equally brutal as Aurangzeb. Large populace was allowed to practice Hindu religion for political exigencies, tactical reason and for generating revenue as Jiziya. It was not because of any altruistic or attitude of "celebrating diversity."
unlike the European settlers who wiped out wholesale the very existance of the indigeneous folk, the fact regardless of your bigotry against Islam (contrived and full of BS)
Granted they might have done to Americas but did not or could not do it in Asia. But why bring them into picture. We are focused on Islam. I would like you to hold my own mirror in front of me, not show my image you see in your camera. All of us tend to have tented lenses when we focus our camera on others.
is that never before in the history of the world have so many of such diverse cultures been enslaved by externally defined sense of worth and self, as in today's America-led world. The world today is much smaller than it ever was in the past, which has ensured that the means to define and process reality in the hands of the elite are much greater and the feat much simpler.
Compared to Muslim period, in present so called American period, there is more celebration of Indian culture, spiritual practices and art all over the world not just in India. More Indians are doing Yog, Meditation and chanting compared to Muslim period. More Indians are Garv Se Kaho Hum Hindu Hain. World is smaller, thanks to communication technology and progress in aviation. 30% employees of Bell Labs are Indians. More than 50% of telecom and internet related start ups in silicon valley were started by Indians. NASA is 20% Indian. While achieving these successes Indians do not need to profess new religion or disown their culture and identity. Compare that to Rajputs of medieval India. Aren't majority of them Muslims with Arabic first and lat names? Can these Rajputs talk there Rajasthani or Marwari language? Trace the progeny of Raja ManSingh.
Islam has never had problems of identity and worth based on label, Muslims have invented their preceived superiority just as people of other faiths have; the sense of worth Islam defines is based on character and act and not on some label or belonging with a group, in fact it busts xenophobia and ethnocentricity by declaring that all are equal creations of their one God who because of how they act and what they do either stunt their growth or reach higher levels of development.
Would you be able to call yourself from today onwards as Mullah Mandar Mulatankar? A Jain or Boudha can be Mittal, Agrawal, Chougule, Shinde or Singh and be devout Jain or Boudha. Even Indian devout Christians have names such as Rev. Arjun Krishnan. How about Muslims? I have not seen a Indian Muslim with their native language names. Look at even Bangladeshis who separated from west Pakistan because of the pride in their language but you won't find a Bangladeshi Muslim with names such as Nirankar Dhakkakar. The new converts to Islam first lose their individual identity.
Now I know you Hindu bigots are obsessed with Islam, but only a fool would learn from your perversion of history and your ignorance of the Quran what it is about, so refrain from constructing strawmen where you define what your miserable understanding of Islam
For the survival of true Islam you need to get obsessed much more than me, to save spiritual part of Islam and throw away imperialistic and cultural linguistic enslavement part of Islam.
This response was to mulla mandar multankar aka masadi sahab, but it applies to you all. Would you please take new Indianized names such as Mulla Shekhar Lahorkar or Mulli (whatever female equivalent of mulla) Seema Mumbaikar?
Sorry, if I hurt your feelings. Generally religion, sex and money (RSM) are avoided in discussion. It's little easy to talk about Benezir, Britany, Birla and Bhangra. But for mst of us, yours truly included, RSM occupies big chunk of our mind, almost defining our identity.
First, it is not Islam that "captures" political power, the fools do that in the name of Islam,
Who are those fools? Are they non-Islamic? To capture political power "the fools (TF)" need faith enhancing pirs, courtier writers and King-Nama creating historians and foot soldiers and dhimmi tax (Ziziya) paying financier and Jakat (tax) and Chanda paying believers, as per my understanding. Please correct me.
second the ability to colonize the life world was perfected by the capitalists of today and not by the Muslims of the Middle Ages who even when they got political power did not by fact or defintion get rid of the alternative identities that coexisted, at the time of partition the Hindus outnumbered the Muslims of India, and did not consider themselves subservient to them,
Let us leave capitalist of today aside for time being. Hope we are not playing blame game. Do you mean Aurangzeb did not happen? Shahajan was equally brutal as Aurangzeb. Large populace was allowed to practice Hindu religion for political exigencies, tactical reason and for generating revenue as Jiziya. It was not because of any altruistic or attitude of "celebrating diversity."
unlike the European settlers who wiped out wholesale the very existance of the indigeneous folk, the fact regardless of your bigotry against Islam (contrived and full of BS)
Granted they might have done to Americas but did not or could not do it in Asia. But why bring them into picture. We are focused on Islam. I would like you to hold my own mirror in front of me, not show my image you see in your camera. All of us tend to have tented lenses when we focus our camera on others.
is that never before in the history of the world have so many of such diverse cultures been enslaved by externally defined sense of worth and self, as in today's America-led world. The world today is much smaller than it ever was in the past, which has ensured that the means to define and process reality in the hands of the elite are much greater and the feat much simpler.
Compared to Muslim period, in present so called American period, there is more celebration of Indian culture, spiritual practices and art all over the world not just in India. More Indians are doing Yog, Meditation and chanting compared to Muslim period. More Indians are Garv Se Kaho Hum Hindu Hain. World is smaller, thanks to communication technology and progress in aviation. 30% employees of Bell Labs are Indians. More than 50% of telecom and internet related start ups in silicon valley were started by Indians. NASA is 20% Indian. While achieving these successes Indians do not need to profess new religion or disown their culture and identity. Compare that to Rajputs of medieval India. Aren't majority of them Muslims with Arabic first and lat names? Can these Rajputs talk there Rajasthani or Marwari language? Trace the progeny of Raja ManSingh.
Islam has never had problems of identity and worth based on label, Muslims have invented their preceived superiority just as people of other faiths have; the sense of worth Islam defines is based on character and act and not on some label or belonging with a group, in fact it busts xenophobia and ethnocentricity by declaring that all are equal creations of their one God who because of how they act and what they do either stunt their growth or reach higher levels of development.
Would you be able to call yourself from today onwards as Mullah Mandar Mulatankar? A Jain or Boudha can be Mittal, Agrawal, Chougule, Shinde or Singh and be devout Jain or Boudha. Even Indian devout Christians have names such as Rev. Arjun Krishnan. How about Muslims? I have not seen a Indian Muslim with their native language names. Look at even Bangladeshis who separated from west Pakistan because of the pride in their language but you won't find a Bangladeshi Muslim with names such as Nirankar Dhakkakar. The new converts to Islam first lose their individual identity.
Now I know you Hindu bigots are obsessed with Islam, but only a fool would learn from your perversion of history and your ignorance of the Quran what it is about, so refrain from constructing strawmen where you define what your miserable understanding of Islam
For the survival of true Islam you need to get obsessed much more than me, to save spiritual part of Islam and throw away imperialistic and cultural linguistic enslavement part of Islam.
#153 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 13, 2008 6:37:36 am
Re: # 152 mR.jAYP .... best policy for anybody is to shut up when one haS NO KNOWLEDGE. Please do not talk bad about religious heads ( of any religion). Mr. Agakhan and family have done lot for all deshis, indians , Pakistanis and bangalis also.
First if you thinkof them as little mullahs with beards and profane abuses etc you are for big surprises. He was even respec ted by British people , I mean big Viceroyals. They have huge wealth and do not collect money from people but they give money out to all muslims people without reference to country. Have heard why they call "prince His highness Agakhan " and not Mr. Agakhan ? There lies answer. Even mr. Gandhi was guest of Agakhan in his palace in bombay of some big city and british put mr. Gandhi for some time when Gandhi was making troubles to British Sarkar when they were fighting for jews to be saved while jinnah asked his followers not take make troubles but stood by white people for their fight against mr.Hitler. Any way it is pont but diversion. Now Agakhan are not ordinary people like you no nothing people.Actually they are far away from all colored indians , sorry about that. Now their blood is White European. Prince Agakhan married Rita Heyward Top actress of Usa. Then agakhan family never looked back, they are now white like europeans with beautiful white skin and complexion and british, french demeaner. They speak french and english. Mostly live in white europe and are treated as Royalty by world leaders.They have outclassed deshis in that sense. They are not going to marry even indian actress or pakistani actresses who are more attractive and beautiful as there are not many theatatres and companies they are regulated to second class, if give free access to India they will out all indian ugly actress. Any way they contribut\e lot to restrration of many famous Mughal architecture like Shalimar gardens in Paksitan and Hyumaun Mosleum in Delhi. This was very tragic place as cruel mr. Hodson british tommy slaughterd young princes and to put fear in mind of old emperorer chopped of heads of princes on plate to emperor in turkic tradition. They have helped to build many medical colleges and higher education institutes and want nothing in return.
Hope all other religious leaders live their examlpary life.
Request not to disrespect religious heads as most are doing some thing special.
About Taliban in Karachi do not worry Mqm and Altaf Hussain have brains to plan and strong writs to execute those plans ruthlessly. Talibs have no future in Karachi and Sindh province.
If you can not say good then do not say nothing.
Good night.
First if you thinkof them as little mullahs with beards and profane abuses etc you are for big surprises. He was even respec ted by British people , I mean big Viceroyals. They have huge wealth and do not collect money from people but they give money out to all muslims people without reference to country. Have heard why they call "prince His highness Agakhan " and not Mr. Agakhan ? There lies answer. Even mr. Gandhi was guest of Agakhan in his palace in bombay of some big city and british put mr. Gandhi for some time when Gandhi was making troubles to British Sarkar when they were fighting for jews to be saved while jinnah asked his followers not take make troubles but stood by white people for their fight against mr.Hitler. Any way it is pont but diversion. Now Agakhan are not ordinary people like you no nothing people.Actually they are far away from all colored indians , sorry about that. Now their blood is White European. Prince Agakhan married Rita Heyward Top actress of Usa. Then agakhan family never looked back, they are now white like europeans with beautiful white skin and complexion and british, french demeaner. They speak french and english. Mostly live in white europe and are treated as Royalty by world leaders.They have outclassed deshis in that sense. They are not going to marry even indian actress or pakistani actresses who are more attractive and beautiful as there are not many theatatres and companies they are regulated to second class, if give free access to India they will out all indian ugly actress. Any way they contribut\e lot to restrration of many famous Mughal architecture like Shalimar gardens in Paksitan and Hyumaun Mosleum in Delhi. This was very tragic place as cruel mr. Hodson british tommy slaughterd young princes and to put fear in mind of old emperorer chopped of heads of princes on plate to emperor in turkic tradition. They have helped to build many medical colleges and higher education institutes and want nothing in return.
Hope all other religious leaders live their examlpary life.
Request not to disrespect religious heads as most are doing some thing special.
About Taliban in Karachi do not worry Mqm and Altaf Hussain have brains to plan and strong writs to execute those plans ruthlessly. Talibs have no future in Karachi and Sindh province.
If you can not say good then do not say nothing.
Good night.
#152 Posted by jayp on July 13, 2008 3:15:42 am
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#151 Posted by Cleopatra on July 13, 2008 1:48:47 am
Farzana Versey you said
Sorry but I think its just ludacris to say such a thing! There is no way any Pakistani feel the need of CONQUERING India.....A typical Pakistani is actually inspired by the Indian media and their fashion sense....not the kind of HATE you have spilled in your article. Sorry to say that but it had to be said!
Sorry but I think its just ludacris to say such a thing! There is no way any Pakistani feel the need of CONQUERING India.....A typical Pakistani is actually inspired by the Indian media and their fashion sense....not the kind of HATE you have spilled in your article. Sorry to say that but it had to be said!
#150 Posted by satya100 on July 12, 2008 11:51:44 pm
Re: # 149
"Pakistan was NOT a religous movement in its initial phase atleast .i neednt say how religous jinnah wss and how much he belonged to the masses of indian muslim ."
Pakistan was a big movement, lot of people in England got woken up when MAJ was banged big long time 1930s by Churchill and other british racist and imperialist.
"Pakistan was NOT a religous movement in its initial phase atleast .i neednt say how religous jinnah wss and how much he belonged to the masses of indian muslim ."
Pakistan was a big movement, lot of people in England got woken up when MAJ was banged big long time 1930s by Churchill and other british racist and imperialist.
#149 Posted by Senna on July 12, 2008 12:24:25 pm
Re: # 148
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Simple. Pakistan was formed to save the world. Alla*
Pakistan was NOT a religous movement in its initial phase atleast .i neednt say how religous jinnah wss and how much he belonged to the masses of indian muslim .
Shias are fighting for control among them selves and dont make it shia sunni biggest divide .There more fighting within Shias than with Sunnis .Bohra Aga Allavi druze ashnasharis have cornerd the rightful discendent of islam like brahmin keeper of hinduism
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Simple. Pakistan was formed to save the world. Alla*
Pakistan was NOT a religous movement in its initial phase atleast .i neednt say how religous jinnah wss and how much he belonged to the masses of indian muslim .
Shias are fighting for control among them selves and dont make it shia sunni biggest divide .There more fighting within Shias than with Sunnis .Bohra Aga Allavi druze ashnasharis have cornerd the rightful discendent of islam like brahmin keeper of hinduism
#148 Posted by satya100 on July 12, 2008 10:40:05 am
Some times we have question why Pakistan was formed?
One reason I would like to quote:
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Pakistan was formed by a grateful Britain to let the US have a foothold in South, Central and West Asia. The idea from the very beginning was to make it as the 51st state at an appropriate time.
2) Why does Pakistan want Kashmir
Pakistan wants Kashmir to help the US, in fact. Initially, the US desperately needed to set up listening posts and observation points to peep into China and USSR and Kashmir offered high mountain peaks close to the borders of these communists countries. Pakistan wanted to grab Kashmir so that it could help the US in those projects.
3) Isn't Pakistan very powerful with all the arms that the US is giving them?
Yes, indeed. However, the people of Pakistan do not speak English, not even American English. They speak Punjabi or Pashto with a smattering of Urdu. Unfortunately, all the instruction manuals were in English.
II Answers to the questions:
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Simple. Pakistan was formed to save the world. Alla* The Merciful was getting a little irritated by all the haraam displays of bare ankles and wrists, and the bikini replacing the burkha, and women telling men that they are idiots in front of other men, without even covering their faces. Olympics competitors and soccer players were getting sunburned because of the lack of long dresses.
2) Why does Pakistan want Kashmir
Pakistan wants Kashmir to save Kashmir and Kashmiris from evil yindoos who rape and murder 1,700,000,000,000,000 tall and fair Kashmiri women, 800,000,000,000,000,000,000 times each day. Instead the Lashkar-e-Toiba would like to give them the opportunity to be 4th wives of handsome, tall, fair and tight-musharrafed jehadis with beards in which the Yeti Lice still roam as buffalo on the Satan's Great Plains, or the Camel in the Great Arabian desert. If they refuse this favor, they are promptly sent to join the Houris in Houristan. Usually in pieces after their uncovered faces have been cleansed with acid. In 1947, Pakistan saved about half of Kashmir, but the yindoos unsaved some of that, so that now only 1/3 is saved. In 1965, Pakistan sent thousands of heroic jehadis into Kashmir, and the local people gratefully used them to fertilize the rocky soil of Kashmir so that chinar trees would bloom better. In 1990, Pakistan helped Kashmiris with plenty of money to buy American and Chinese weapons, and they offered to save all young women in Kashmir. They wrote "Hindoos! Run away with your lives but leave your young daughters for us!"
All children should accept such kind offers from the Pakistani jehad. There is great demand for children in all parts of Pakistan, often to convert to parts using sophisticated BakPaks. Also as jockeys for camel races and as substitites during shortages of goats.
3) Isn't Pakistan very powerful with all the arms that the US is giving them?
That's "alms", not "arms", dear child. $4000,000,000 worth of your parents' and other taxpayers' tax dollars every year. Yes. Pakistani mothers do have very powerful and muscular arms, having raised several dumbbells each for 18 years.
One reason I would like to quote:
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Pakistan was formed by a grateful Britain to let the US have a foothold in South, Central and West Asia. The idea from the very beginning was to make it as the 51st state at an appropriate time.
2) Why does Pakistan want Kashmir
Pakistan wants Kashmir to help the US, in fact. Initially, the US desperately needed to set up listening posts and observation points to peep into China and USSR and Kashmir offered high mountain peaks close to the borders of these communists countries. Pakistan wanted to grab Kashmir so that it could help the US in those projects.
3) Isn't Pakistan very powerful with all the arms that the US is giving them?
Yes, indeed. However, the people of Pakistan do not speak English, not even American English. They speak Punjabi or Pashto with a smattering of Urdu. Unfortunately, all the instruction manuals were in English.
II Answers to the questions:
1) Why was Pakistan formed?
Simple. Pakistan was formed to save the world. Alla* The Merciful was getting a little irritated by all the haraam displays of bare ankles and wrists, and the bikini replacing the burkha, and women telling men that they are idiots in front of other men, without even covering their faces. Olympics competitors and soccer players were getting sunburned because of the lack of long dresses.
2) Why does Pakistan want Kashmir
Pakistan wants Kashmir to save Kashmir and Kashmiris from evil yindoos who rape and murder 1,700,000,000,000,000 tall and fair Kashmiri women, 800,000,000,000,000,000,000 times each day. Instead the Lashkar-e-Toiba would like to give them the opportunity to be 4th wives of handsome, tall, fair and tight-musharrafed jehadis with beards in which the Yeti Lice still roam as buffalo on the Satan's Great Plains, or the Camel in the Great Arabian desert. If they refuse this favor, they are promptly sent to join the Houris in Houristan. Usually in pieces after their uncovered faces have been cleansed with acid. In 1947, Pakistan saved about half of Kashmir, but the yindoos unsaved some of that, so that now only 1/3 is saved. In 1965, Pakistan sent thousands of heroic jehadis into Kashmir, and the local people gratefully used them to fertilize the rocky soil of Kashmir so that chinar trees would bloom better. In 1990, Pakistan helped Kashmiris with plenty of money to buy American and Chinese weapons, and they offered to save all young women in Kashmir. They wrote "Hindoos! Run away with your lives but leave your young daughters for us!"
All children should accept such kind offers from the Pakistani jehad. There is great demand for children in all parts of Pakistan, often to convert to parts using sophisticated BakPaks. Also as jockeys for camel races and as substitites during shortages of goats.
3) Isn't Pakistan very powerful with all the arms that the US is giving them?
That's "alms", not "arms", dear child. $4000,000,000 worth of your parents' and other taxpayers' tax dollars every year. Yes. Pakistani mothers do have very powerful and muscular arms, having raised several dumbbells each for 18 years.
#147 Posted by satya100 on July 12, 2008 9:42:02 am
Enlightened Chinese way to handle religious minority and extra-territorial loyalty of Farzana kind:
In so far as Xinjiang, while China’ profess religious freedom, the reality is that Muslims in Xinjiang have restricted religious freedom as in Tibet. There is state repression. The Chinese demolished a mosque in Kalpin county near Aksu city in Xinjiang's southwest since they refused to put up posters pertaining to the Olympics
XINJIANG: Imams and mosque education under state control
By Igor Rotar, Forum 18 News Service
The imam of the central mosque in the town of Turpan, north east of China's Xinjiang region, admitted to Forum 18 News Service in early September that the Chinese authorities name all imams to local mosques. Imams also have to attend regular meetings of the national religious committees at their town administration, where they are told what they can do and are ordered to preach peace and condemn terrorism in their sermons. Local adult Muslims, mainly ethnic Uighurs, can learn about their faith only in certain mosques where the imam has gained special approval, while children are banned. "
http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=411&pdf=Y
In so far as Xinjiang, while China’ profess religious freedom, the reality is that Muslims in Xinjiang have restricted religious freedom as in Tibet. There is state repression. The Chinese demolished a mosque in Kalpin county near Aksu city in Xinjiang's southwest since they refused to put up posters pertaining to the Olympics
XINJIANG: Imams and mosque education under state control
By Igor Rotar, Forum 18 News Service
The imam of the central mosque in the town of Turpan, north east of China's Xinjiang region, admitted to Forum 18 News Service in early September that the Chinese authorities name all imams to local mosques. Imams also have to attend regular meetings of the national religious committees at their town administration, where they are told what they can do and are ordered to preach peace and condemn terrorism in their sermons. Local adult Muslims, mainly ethnic Uighurs, can learn about their faith only in certain mosques where the imam has gained special approval, while children are banned. "
http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=411&pdf=Y
#146 Posted by satyamvada on July 12, 2008 9:34:20 am
Arjun -
It is not just Bangladesh, Pakistan has massacred tens of thousands of Balochis in the 1980's , eliminated thousands of shias in the northern areas completely pakjabized Pakistan-occupied-kashmir and changed demographics.[This is one of the reasons a plebiscite cannot be held ]
This is also why many Punjabis claim to be of kashmiri origin!
Musharraf was also instumental in massive massacres of locals in gilgit, northern areas.
So next time - remind pakistanis about
a) massacres of many tens of thousands of balochis
in mid to late 70's
b) elimination of the shias from northern
areas/gilgit.
c) elimination of shias and massive army killings
in karachi.
#145 Posted by satyamvada on July 12, 2008 9:20:15 am
One has to keep in mind that in 1940' and 50's the
middleast was nothing. The Indian Rupee was accepted and
major currency in Saudi Arabia till 1965.
Only when oil really started flowing in the 1960's and
dollarization in the 70's the middleast really matter.
So in 1950's who ever was the leader of muslims in the subcontinent could claim leadership of the ummah. That is why many pakistanis have this delusion of the ummah and they being leading nation of the ummah etc. But since 1950's the world has changed but pakis still remain in the past.
#144 Posted by satya100 on July 12, 2008 9:18:11 am
"When partition happened, many members of rich muslim families left for pakistan while other members stayed back to protect the property in India. This way
they maintain ownership of property in India and at the same time go and take over property of hindus kicked out of pakistan."
Is that what really happened? This need to be studied and the people who really gained form partition need to be identified.
Are Aga Khanis shia? Are there Aga Khanis near Basra? How close are Aga Khanis with shia? Did Saddam killed Aga Khanis? We know he killed about 500K shias in 1980s and in 1991 after gulf war.
they maintain ownership of property in India and at the same time go and take over property of hindus kicked out of pakistan."
Is that what really happened? This need to be studied and the people who really gained form partition need to be identified.
Are Aga Khanis shia? Are there Aga Khanis near Basra? How close are Aga Khanis with shia? Did Saddam killed Aga Khanis? We know he killed about 500K shias in 1980s and in 1991 after gulf war.
#143 Posted by satyamvada on July 12, 2008 9:05:57 am
Arjun/Mohar et al
You should know about the contributions of Aga Khan to the pakistan movement. The aga khan Sultan Shah was the first president of the Muslim League.
people like FV consider themselves to be from Iranian
royalty (this is true among some of the elite muslim folks in Hyderabad, Andhra pradesh). Wherever this elite class of muslims live in India, you will notice that there are no-go areas and riots.
So if one thinks of oneself as being of persian royalty then 100rs coffee is nothing.
When partition happened, many members of rich muslim families left for pakistan while other members stayed back to protect the property in India. This way
they maintain ownership of property in India and at the same time go and take over property of hindus kicked out of pakistan.
The ismailis, ahmedis were all for partition, because they thought they could takeover leadership of pakistan and islam. But, things turned out otherwise and the devbandis who followed them to pakiland had other ideas.
This is the reason farzana's , yasser hamdanis hate the Mahatma and dislike India.
Now you know the rest of the story.
You should know about the contributions of Aga Khan to the pakistan movement. The aga khan Sultan Shah was the first president of the Muslim League.
people like FV consider themselves to be from Iranian
royalty (this is true among some of the elite muslim folks in Hyderabad, Andhra pradesh). Wherever this elite class of muslims live in India, you will notice that there are no-go areas and riots.
So if one thinks of oneself as being of persian royalty then 100rs coffee is nothing.
When partition happened, many members of rich muslim families left for pakistan while other members stayed back to protect the property in India. This way
they maintain ownership of property in India and at the same time go and take over property of hindus kicked out of pakistan.
The ismailis, ahmedis were all for partition, because they thought they could takeover leadership of pakistan and islam. But, things turned out otherwise and the devbandis who followed them to pakiland had other ideas.
This is the reason farzana's , yasser hamdanis hate the Mahatma and dislike India.
Now you know the rest of the story.
#142 Posted by zeemax on July 12, 2008 4:01:31 am
#140 laddu Bhai, so how does that paragraph signify any identity conflict of the author?
#141 Posted by laddu on July 12, 2008 3:25:45 am
A MUSLIM mosque leader yesterday claimed he spat on a 14-year-old girl after she flashed her breasts at him.
Farooq Hussain told a court that was how his DNA was found on her.
Perth Sheriff Court heard Hussain - who is a mosque leader and prominent Muslim in Scotland - claim the girl had shoved her breasts in his face and he had been "disgusted, embarrassed and degraded".
He said: "She stood up and quickly lifted her top and pulled her breasts out and put them in my face and mouth?.
"I spat on her. She started wiping the spit on her breasts."
The court had already heard the girl describe how she was attacked by Hussain.
Married Hussain 56, of Perth, also denies a sex attack on a 15-year-old girl in 2002 and two other charges relating to a 14-year-old girl last year.
Another charge concerning a third girl in 2002 was dropped
Case 2
Poor Farooq Hussain became the victim of the lust of another 15 year old attractive young lady who also reported him to police after he rejected her advances.
Sex attack by mosque leader
Jul 8 2008
By Gordon Curie
Girl said: "He started touching my thighs and I told him to get off me, which he didn't. I tried to get away and he pushed me against a filing cabinet.
"He put his hand down my trousers. He went up my top with his hands as well."
Married Hussain, 56, head of a mosque in Perth and a prominent member of Scotland's Muslim community, denies sex attacks on three young girls.
Case 3
A 14 year old girl reported Imam Farooq Hussain to police after successfully sexually assaulting him.
Mosque leader sexually assaults a 14 year old
Jul 5 2008 By Gordon Currie
A 14-YEAR-OLD girl wept yesterday as she told a jury how she was sexually assaulted by a mosque leader.
The girl said that Farooq Hussain forced himself upon her while she was helping him decorate one of his flats.
She said: "He came behind me and put his hands on my waist. He touched me and started doing other stuff."
The girl - one of three that Hussain is said to have attacked - claimed her chest was left bruised as a result of the attack.
When I cried Farooq kept asking what was wrong and I said, 'You know what you have done. You are not supposed to do that. I'm phoning the police'.
Hussain, 56, head of a mosque in Perth and a prominent member of the Muslim community, denies sexual assault.
She said Farooq Hussain 56, of Pitcullen Crescent, Perth, a married man, offered to give her money.
The girl said her mother's face "went white" when she told her what Farooq had done. She wanted to take a bath but was advised not to until police had spoken to her.
Hussain is alleged to have carried out a series of sexual assaults against 14 and 15-year-old girls around Perth over a five-year period.
#140 Posted by laddu on July 12, 2008 3:14:37 am
Re: # 139
Zeebhai,
Farzana does appear to be un-sure of how her Indian identity and her Umaahized identity is a peace with each other.
Then she says :
"..but I have included the Jamia Hafsa women because in many ways they set the tone of the current crisis of rebelling against the system. I find this most interesting because in an Islamic society you have bunch of Muslims, women at that, going around with sticks. We really need to broaden our way of looking at the idea of dissent."
This was a really nonsense way she defines "dissent". Imagine if kafir women were to take to sticks and surround the masjids and shout against the treatment of Kafir salve and Dhimmi women that Islam imposes upon them. That would be redefining "dissent" in a KAfir way-
"Down with the Divinely sanctioned Rape of Kafir Women!!!"
"down with Shariah"
"Down with the PAedophilic Cult of Islam"!!
"Down with the Mullahs Malls who support Islamic rapes"
Zeebhai,
Farzana does appear to be un-sure of how her Indian identity and her Umaahized identity is a peace with each other.
Then she says :
"..but I have included the Jamia Hafsa women because in many ways they set the tone of the current crisis of rebelling against the system. I find this most interesting because in an Islamic society you have bunch of Muslims, women at that, going around with sticks. We really need to broaden our way of looking at the idea of dissent."
This was a really nonsense way she defines "dissent". Imagine if kafir women were to take to sticks and surround the masjids and shout against the treatment of Kafir salve and Dhimmi women that Islam imposes upon them. That would be redefining "dissent" in a KAfir way-
"Down with the Divinely sanctioned Rape of Kafir Women!!!"
"down with Shariah"
"Down with the PAedophilic Cult of Islam"!!
"Down with the Mullahs Malls who support Islamic rapes"
#139 Posted by zeemax on July 12, 2008 2:56:58 am
laddu Bhai,
I think Farzana is talking about how Pakistanis see her, not as she sees herself.
I think Farzana is talking about how Pakistanis see her, not as she sees herself.
#138 Posted by laddu on July 12, 2008 12:31:28 am
Why should Farzana , an Indian muslim, have an "identity" crisis whera none of the other Indians have such??
Unless, she wants to live in a Shariat Land surrounded by momeens only?
If she thinks that her identity as an Indian is shaky and her Ummahized identity is primary then she need not raise doubts about her identity before others. She should rather un-ambigously proclaim to the world that her primary identity emnates from that supremacist Arabic God- and that she is ready to 'renounce' her false kafir contaminated 'identities' that the secular land of India promotes.
Unless, she wants to live in a Shariat Land surrounded by momeens only?
If she thinks that her identity as an Indian is shaky and her Ummahized identity is primary then she need not raise doubts about her identity before others. She should rather un-ambigously proclaim to the world that her primary identity emnates from that supremacist Arabic God- and that she is ready to 'renounce' her false kafir contaminated 'identities' that the secular land of India promotes.
#137 Posted by _arjun10 on July 11, 2008 11:22:17 pm
Poor farzanas with split loyalty
Farzana doesn't have a problem with split loyalty..her loyalty is 100% to pakistan.
#136 Posted by satya100 on July 11, 2008 10:25:48 pm
Poor farzanas with split loyalty! Seems farzana is stranded like these folks.
At first glance, Geneva Camp could be any of Dhaka's overcrowded and filthy slums.
But above it flies Pakistan's green flag, with a red strip sewn on the side to represent, I was told, the suffering of the people there.
In the camp's school, the children first sing the Bangladesh national anthem at assembly, and then, after prayers, they belt out Pakistan's. Loyalties are divided.
"When I grow up I want to stay in this country and become a teacher," one girl tells me. But her classmate wants to go to Pakistan. " My grandmother lives in Karachi so I really want to go there," she says.
When I ask a group of youths which cricket team they supported when Pakistan recently played Bangladesh they all replied, "Pakistan".
But did they want to live there? "No, it is far too dangerous. Bangladesh is a peaceful country. We don't have any Taleban here," they said.
'Huge mistake'
Their lessons are in the local language Bengali, but their mother tongue is Urdu, the language of north Indian Islam, which their great-grandparents brought to Bangladesh in 1947 when it was then the eastern wing of Pakistan.
During the partition of India along religious lines, several hundred thousand Muslims, mostly from the Indian state of Bihar, came with them.
They were given houses and jobs by the government, but because they could not speak Bengali, they spent most of their lives apart from their countrymen.
The camp where Pakistanis live in Bangladesh
The refugee camp is filthy and overcrowded
The school's headmaster, Shawkat Ali, has a framed portrait of Pakistan's founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah above his desk.
He says that his grandfather's decision to listen to Jinnah and leave India in 1947 was a huge mistake.
"Our family lost everything when we moved to Pakistan. We lost in India, then we lost in Pakistan, and now we are in Bangladesh," he said.
"We are the beggars on the footpath. Our people are leading a horrible life."
East Pakistan came to a bloody end in 1971 when the Bengali majority demanded greater autonomy for their province and then won a national election.
Pakistan responded by sending in its army. Nine months and a reported three million deaths later it pulled out and Bangladesh became an independent country.
Most Urdu-speakers had supported Pakistan, and some joined the militia responsible for atrocities. Thousands of Urdu-speaking civilians were also killed.
After the war, they were forced to abandon their homes and businesses, and herded into 70 Red Cross camps, awaiting repatriation to Pakistan.
But it only took in about half of them, and today there are 250,000 to 400,000 people still living in these same camps.
Several generations, and often several families, now share the small rooms each was originally given.
Bangladeshis in all but name
Shawkat Ali, the headmaster, is also one of the leaders of the Stranded Pakistanis General Repatriation Committee which calls for Pakistan to take in everyone who wants to go there.
"Our fathers and forefathers gave their blood for the creation of Pakistan. We have opted to go to Pakistan, and we should go there at the earliest," he said.
But many of the younger generation believe that Bangladesh will not help them if they continue to insist they are Pakistanis, and that the calls for repatriation have only made their lives harder.
Community leader Sadakat Khan
Mr Khan says there is no question of returning to Pakistan
Pakistan meanwhile says that it has taken in everyone it had agreed to following the war. It might accept more, but only on "humanitarian grounds".
In any case, many of the younger Urdu-speakers say they are Bangladeshis in all but name.
"There is no question of returning us to Pakistan. We haven't seen that country, we don't know that country, we were born and brought up here and we want to die here in dignity," Sadakat Khan, a community leader said.
He now hopes things will pick up for the Urdu-speakers after winning a historic victory in Bangladesh's Supreme Court last month.
The court ruled that anyone born in the country who did not refer to himself or herself as a "Stranded Pakistani", could vote in this year's upcoming elections.
And if they have the right to vote, Mr Khan says, the Urdu-speakers will then have the right to citizenship, government jobs, medical care, education, land ownership and foreign travel.
"We were deprived of the rights of a state for 36 years, but now we are getting them," he said. "With this ruling, the future of our children has been saved."
He hopes that nearly four decades of life as a stateless, unwanted people has finally come to an end.
At first glance, Geneva Camp could be any of Dhaka's overcrowded and filthy slums.
But above it flies Pakistan's green flag, with a red strip sewn on the side to represent, I was told, the suffering of the people there.
In the camp's school, the children first sing the Bangladesh national anthem at assembly, and then, after prayers, they belt out Pakistan's. Loyalties are divided.
"When I grow up I want to stay in this country and become a teacher," one girl tells me. But her classmate wants to go to Pakistan. " My grandmother lives in Karachi so I really want to go there," she says.
When I ask a group of youths which cricket team they supported when Pakistan recently played Bangladesh they all replied, "Pakistan".
But did they want to live there? "No, it is far too dangerous. Bangladesh is a peaceful country. We don't have any Taleban here," they said.
'Huge mistake'
Their lessons are in the local language Bengali, but their mother tongue is Urdu, the language of north Indian Islam, which their great-grandparents brought to Bangladesh in 1947 when it was then the eastern wing of Pakistan.
During the partition of India along religious lines, several hundred thousand Muslims, mostly from the Indian state of Bihar, came with them.
They were given houses and jobs by the government, but because they could not speak Bengali, they spent most of their lives apart from their countrymen.
The camp where Pakistanis live in Bangladesh
The refugee camp is filthy and overcrowded
The school's headmaster, Shawkat Ali, has a framed portrait of Pakistan's founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah above his desk.
He says that his grandfather's decision to listen to Jinnah and leave India in 1947 was a huge mistake.
"Our family lost everything when we moved to Pakistan. We lost in India, then we lost in Pakistan, and now we are in Bangladesh," he said.
"We are the beggars on the footpath. Our people are leading a horrible life."
East Pakistan came to a bloody end in 1971 when the Bengali majority demanded greater autonomy for their province and then won a national election.
Pakistan responded by sending in its army. Nine months and a reported three million deaths later it pulled out and Bangladesh became an independent country.
Most Urdu-speakers had supported Pakistan, and some joined the militia responsible for atrocities. Thousands of Urdu-speaking civilians were also killed.
After the war, they were forced to abandon their homes and businesses, and herded into 70 Red Cross camps, awaiting repatriation to Pakistan.
But it only took in about half of them, and today there are 250,000 to 400,000 people still living in these same camps.
Several generations, and often several families, now share the small rooms each was originally given.
Bangladeshis in all but name
Shawkat Ali, the headmaster, is also one of the leaders of the Stranded Pakistanis General Repatriation Committee which calls for Pakistan to take in everyone who wants to go there.
"Our fathers and forefathers gave their blood for the creation of Pakistan. We have opted to go to Pakistan, and we should go there at the earliest," he said.
But many of the younger generation believe that Bangladesh will not help them if they continue to insist they are Pakistanis, and that the calls for repatriation have only made their lives harder.
Community leader Sadakat Khan
Mr Khan says there is no question of returning to Pakistan
Pakistan meanwhile says that it has taken in everyone it had agreed to following the war. It might accept more, but only on "humanitarian grounds".
In any case, many of the younger Urdu-speakers say they are Bangladeshis in all but name.
"There is no question of returning us to Pakistan. We haven't seen that country, we don't know that country, we were born and brought up here and we want to die here in dignity," Sadakat Khan, a community leader said.
He now hopes things will pick up for the Urdu-speakers after winning a historic victory in Bangladesh's Supreme Court last month.
The court ruled that anyone born in the country who did not refer to himself or herself as a "Stranded Pakistani", could vote in this year's upcoming elections.
And if they have the right to vote, Mr Khan says, the Urdu-speakers will then have the right to citizenship, government jobs, medical care, education, land ownership and foreign travel.
"We were deprived of the rights of a state for 36 years, but now we are getting them," he said. "With this ruling, the future of our children has been saved."
He hopes that nearly four decades of life as a stateless, unwanted people has finally come to an end.
#135 Posted by satya100 on July 11, 2008 9:04:28 pm
Obama Statement on Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw
Chicago, IL | June 30, 2008
Chicago, IL – Senator Barack Obama today released the following statement of condolence on the passing of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw.
"I offer my deep condolences to the people of India, on the passing of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw. He was a legendary soldier, a patriot, and an inspiration to his fellow citizens. Field Marshal Manekshaw provided an example of personal bravery, self-sacrifice, and steadfast devotion to duty that began before India's independence, and will deservedly be remembered far into the future."
Chicago, IL | June 30, 2008
Chicago, IL – Senator Barack Obama today released the following statement of condolence on the passing of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw.
"I offer my deep condolences to the people of India, on the passing of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw. He was a legendary soldier, a patriot, and an inspiration to his fellow citizens. Field Marshal Manekshaw provided an example of personal bravery, self-sacrifice, and steadfast devotion to duty that began before India's independence, and will deservedly be remembered far into the future."
#134 Posted by satya100 on July 11, 2008 12:09:47 pm
http://kumarforcongress.com/An-Open-Let ... icans.html
An Open Letter to Indian-Americans
Monday, May 26, 2008
Dear Friends,
I am Vijay Kumar, a native of Hyderabad, India, and an American Citizen. I have been in the United States for nearly 29 years and a resident of the great Volunteer State of Tennessee for the past 22 years. Now, I am running for United States Congress from the 5th Congressional District, Tennessee, as a Republican candidate.
Let me tell you why I am running and what I am fighting for. I believe you will see that it is a matter of the gravest importance to both our adopted homeland, the United States, and our native land, the Republic of India. I dare say it is the Number One matter confronting all humanity.
I refer to the threat of Universal Jihad, which you might know as “Radical Islamist terrorism.? The Universal Jihadists’ bombings are not limited to New York or London or Madrid. In fact, India has been the greatest victim of radical terrorism for the past 25 years. The recent bombing of Jaipur, Rajasthan, and previous bombings of Hyderabad, Mumbai, Delhi and others bear witness to this fact.
Who are these bombers? They are Universal Jihadists, and they go by different names in different countries. They advocate reestablishment of the Caliphate. They want “Talibanization? of the entire world.
Universal Jihadists demand theological, racial, political, and cultural supremacy over the rest of the world. They are products of a militant ideology and the ideology is what shapes them. This ideology—the Doctrine of Universal Jihad—is what we must confront and defeat. Our war is for intellectual and religious freedom. The alternative is unconditional surrender of the mind.
Take the Example of Kashmir. “Demographic Conquest? is the most permanent form of conquest. Kashmir was a Hindu majority state for thousands of years. Through invasion, forcible evacuation, and conversion lasting centuries, Muslims became the majority in Kashmir. Now the Universal Jihadists are waging a guerilla war to secede from India. They seek to impose Sharia law replacing the secular Indian Constitution. The jihadi struggle in Kashmir is a grand theological rehearsal; the ultimate goal of Universal Jihadists is total conquest and Islamization of India.
The task of defeating so pernicious an ideology is greatly hampered by a pervasive and willful ignorance on the part of the cultural Left in the United States, and in Europe and India. The liberals have been so cowered by “political correctness? that they actually serve as apologists for Universal Jihad. The Left and Muslim intellectuals say that terrorist attacks are the consequence of America’s foreign policy in the Middle East and its support for Israel.
This argument is patently false. Very few Americans or Jews live in places like India, Thailand, the Philippines, Bali, Nigeria, Sudan, Russia, and a host of other countries where jihad has been relentless.
The current global terrorist attacks are simply a continuation of 1,400 years of Universal Jihad. Western and Indian liberals have become lackeys of Universal Jihadists in their words and deeds. It is completely disingenuous to decry the genocide of Darfur and ignore the root cause of that genocide, Universal Jihad.
We must develop a comprehensive and lasting solution to the perennial problem of Universal Jihad, and we cannot achieve this goal using current strategies. The Bush Administration’s foreign policy of concentrating on Afghanistan and Iraq is not sufficient. The Bush Doctrine lacks coherence. Our goal should be absolute and unconditional surrender of Universal Jihadists.
This war must be waged on multiple fronts: ideological, economic, and military.
Ideologically, we must uphold that the American view of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is infinitely superior to the jihadist worldview of terror, death, and destruction.On the economic front, we must stop all forms of aid to terrorist-supporting nations and groups, regardless of any short-term gain we derive from supporting them.
On the military front, we must create a coalition of democracies that have historically been victims of global terror with the aim of jointly fighting the problem of terrorism. The coalition would include the United States, Britain, Western Europe, India, South Africa, Israel, Russia, Nigeria, Thailand, the Philippines, and Japan.
If I am elected, I will endeavor to attack the problem of Universal Jihad in the ways necessary to defeat it:
*
I will support the cause of Kashmiri Hindus, who have been victims of Islamist fundamentalist groups for nearly half a century and whose suffering is relatively unknown to the rest of humanity.
*
I will work hard to cut American military and economic aid to the States that have sponsored terrorism.
*
I will support the people and Government of India’s fight against terrorism.
*
I will work hard to build a coalition of democracies who are willing to confront the menace of Universal Jihad in defense of liberty.
This letter is a direct call to you to give me that chance through your financial and campaign support. I greatly appreciate your attention to the information that I have provided here. For more information about my conservative positions, please visit my Web Site: www.kumarforcongress.com, or please email me at kumarforcongress@aol.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .
I need your prayers and your immediate financial help, both of which are critical to my victory in Republican primary on August 7, 2008.
Please send your most generous contribution today to the following address:
Kumar for Congress,
P.O. Box 210348,
Nashville, TN 37221.
Respectfully,
Vijay Kumar
An Open Letter to Indian-Americans
Monday, May 26, 2008
Dear Friends,
I am Vijay Kumar, a native of Hyderabad, India, and an American Citizen. I have been in the United States for nearly 29 years and a resident of the great Volunteer State of Tennessee for the past 22 years. Now, I am running for United States Congress from the 5th Congressional District, Tennessee, as a Republican candidate.
Let me tell you why I am running and what I am fighting for. I believe you will see that it is a matter of the gravest importance to both our adopted homeland, the United States, and our native land, the Republic of India. I dare say it is the Number One matter confronting all humanity.
I refer to the threat of Universal Jihad, which you might know as “Radical Islamist terrorism.? The Universal Jihadists’ bombings are not limited to New York or London or Madrid. In fact, India has been the greatest victim of radical terrorism for the past 25 years. The recent bombing of Jaipur, Rajasthan, and previous bombings of Hyderabad, Mumbai, Delhi and others bear witness to this fact.
Who are these bombers? They are Universal Jihadists, and they go by different names in different countries. They advocate reestablishment of the Caliphate. They want “Talibanization? of the entire world.
Universal Jihadists demand theological, racial, political, and cultural supremacy over the rest of the world. They are products of a militant ideology and the ideology is what shapes them. This ideology—the Doctrine of Universal Jihad—is what we must confront and defeat. Our war is for intellectual and religious freedom. The alternative is unconditional surrender of the mind.
Take the Example of Kashmir. “Demographic Conquest? is the most permanent form of conquest. Kashmir was a Hindu majority state for thousands of years. Through invasion, forcible evacuation, and conversion lasting centuries, Muslims became the majority in Kashmir. Now the Universal Jihadists are waging a guerilla war to secede from India. They seek to impose Sharia law replacing the secular Indian Constitution. The jihadi struggle in Kashmir is a grand theological rehearsal; the ultimate goal of Universal Jihadists is total conquest and Islamization of India.
The task of defeating so pernicious an ideology is greatly hampered by a pervasive and willful ignorance on the part of the cultural Left in the United States, and in Europe and India. The liberals have been so cowered by “political correctness? that they actually serve as apologists for Universal Jihad. The Left and Muslim intellectuals say that terrorist attacks are the consequence of America’s foreign policy in the Middle East and its support for Israel.
This argument is patently false. Very few Americans or Jews live in places like India, Thailand, the Philippines, Bali, Nigeria, Sudan, Russia, and a host of other countries where jihad has been relentless.
The current global terrorist attacks are simply a continuation of 1,400 years of Universal Jihad. Western and Indian liberals have become lackeys of Universal Jihadists in their words and deeds. It is completely disingenuous to decry the genocide of Darfur and ignore the root cause of that genocide, Universal Jihad.
We must develop a comprehensive and lasting solution to the perennial problem of Universal Jihad, and we cannot achieve this goal using current strategies. The Bush Administration’s foreign policy of concentrating on Afghanistan and Iraq is not sufficient. The Bush Doctrine lacks coherence. Our goal should be absolute and unconditional surrender of Universal Jihadists.
This war must be waged on multiple fronts: ideological, economic, and military.
Ideologically, we must uphold that the American view of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is infinitely superior to the jihadist worldview of terror, death, and destruction.On the economic front, we must stop all forms of aid to terrorist-supporting nations and groups, regardless of any short-term gain we derive from supporting them.
On the military front, we must create a coalition of democracies that have historically been victims of global terror with the aim of jointly fighting the problem of terrorism. The coalition would include the United States, Britain, Western Europe, India, South Africa, Israel, Russia, Nigeria, Thailand, the Philippines, and Japan.
If I am elected, I will endeavor to attack the problem of Universal Jihad in the ways necessary to defeat it:
*
I will support the cause of Kashmiri Hindus, who have been victims of Islamist fundamentalist groups for nearly half a century and whose suffering is relatively unknown to the rest of humanity.
*
I will work hard to cut American military and economic aid to the States that have sponsored terrorism.
*
I will support the people and Government of India’s fight against terrorism.
*
I will work hard to build a coalition of democracies who are willing to confront the menace of Universal Jihad in defense of liberty.
This letter is a direct call to you to give me that chance through your financial and campaign support. I greatly appreciate your attention to the information that I have provided here. For more information about my conservative positions, please visit my Web Site: www.kumarforcongress.com, or please email me at kumarforcongress@aol.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .
I need your prayers and your immediate financial help, both of which are critical to my victory in Republican primary on August 7, 2008.
Please send your most generous contribution today to the following address:
Kumar for Congress,
P.O. Box 210348,
Nashville, TN 37221.
Respectfully,
Vijay Kumar
#133 Posted by ajeya on July 11, 2008 11:55:58 am
#128 Sanatani
[IF IT WERE NOT FOR Dr SP Mukherjee me and many of my ilk WOULD SAY AND SAY LOUDLY:
THROWN BENGAL OUT OF THE UNION.]
Sanatani,
I spent a few years in Bengal and came to know the Bengalis, both urban and rural, and the political situation in West Bengal in some detail. The Communist Government never was, and still isn't, popular with Bengalis. Their election victories have been a result of systematic and mass rigging done so subtly and scientifically that it has escaped prosecution.
[IF IT WERE NOT FOR Dr SP Mukherjee me and many of my ilk WOULD SAY AND SAY LOUDLY:
THROWN BENGAL OUT OF THE UNION.]
Sanatani,
I spent a few years in Bengal and came to know the Bengalis, both urban and rural, and the political situation in West Bengal in some detail. The Communist Government never was, and still isn't, popular with Bengalis. Their election victories have been a result of systematic and mass rigging done so subtly and scientifically that it has escaped prosecution.
#132 Posted by pinku on July 11, 2008 11:07:56 am
#128 Posted by Sanatani
This may happen in our life time.
We will possibly get to know what Harappa was or Aryans were in our flie times, but more importantly, it is almost guranteed that sooner or later more ancient settlements with large number of evidences will be found in India. Many more than what we already know and most of them in deserts because it can preserve it for longer.
The reason is that Indian sub-continent (Indian tectonic plate covering Afganistan to Bhutan, And everything south of Himalayas, including Himalayas) was part of Africa millions of years ago (more technically part of Gondwana super continent) and the environment here was even better than Africa has.
It is almost impossible to imagine that India doesn't have a very very long continuity of large human population. History or prehistory doesn't know of a time when India was not heavily populous. This sub-continent is the best place to live with minimum accessories since ever.
But we need to wait till somebody finds better technology for archeological survey.
#131 Posted by Sanatani on July 11, 2008 8:11:24 am
Re: # 130
Kyon pai Hamidya,
Main ki galt gal kar ditti.
Sanatani
Kyon pai Hamidya,
Main ki galt gal kar ditti.
Sanatani
#130 Posted by hamidm2 on July 11, 2008 6:18:31 am
sanatani,
.... you scare me ...... i thought moslems were the only people who were nuts ......
#129 Posted by satya100 on July 11, 2008 5:44:24 am
Re: # 128 Sanatani,
Thanks for the link. http://www.sabha.info/history.html
In our younger days we were communists. What can we do to save younger ones from 4Ms and Materialists. You need to add one more M. How do we grow economy, be progessive in thoughts and actions, be passionate about Science and Technology? How do we spread the right attitude towards root cause of all Ms, the money. The money needs to become a public trust given to one because of one's higher consciousnes achieved through his/her individual effort, and one needs to use it judiciously for common good. We need to see Rama in Janata, JanataJanardan.
Thanks for the link. http://www.sabha.info/history.html
In our younger days we were communists. What can we do to save younger ones from 4Ms and Materialists. You need to add one more M. How do we grow economy, be progessive in thoughts and actions, be passionate about Science and Technology? How do we spread the right attitude towards root cause of all Ms, the money. The money needs to become a public trust given to one because of one's higher consciousnes achieved through his/her individual effort, and one needs to use it judiciously for common good. We need to see Rama in Janata, JanataJanardan.
#128 Posted by Sanatani on July 11, 2008 4:56:56 am
Re: # 127
Do we need temple for Lord Rama? Yes most certainly
I don't think it should be one of the primary areas of concern for any Indian. What should it be "Secularism" as defined by the 4M Media brigade (please refer sabha.info for what is 4M)
I disrespect the level of intellect of cow belt people ya unlike you intelectul Bangalis who elect commies who supported China and Stalin and every 2 bit commie despot the world over and actually spearhead the infiltration of traitors and 5th columnists in the country.
FYI Advani is just a cog in the Ram Mandir movement and not the movement itself. According to recorded history of Muslims and British this struggle has been going on for more than 350 years. (350 yrs of recorded struggle).
you can not unite entire nation under the banner of Lord Rama. You can if that fkstrd Advani had listened to the Baudhik Panch Pandavas Shri Rama Swarupji, Shri Sitaramji Goel, Shri Arun Shourie, Shri Harsh Narain and Shri Koenraad Elst. Instead he chose to listen to that imbecile nincompoop Pramod Mahajan and that Pompous Windbag as described by Shri Sitaramji Goel AB Vajpai.
Read about Dr SP Mukherjee before you make any comments on him
AND FINALLY YOU SOOOOB:
IF IT WERE NOT FOR Dr SP Mukherjee me and many of my ilk WOULD SAY AND SAY LOUDLY:
THROWN BENGAL OUT OF THE UNION.
Fk u
Sanatani
Do we need temple for Lord Rama? Yes most certainly
I don't think it should be one of the primary areas of concern for any Indian. What should it be "Secularism" as defined by the 4M Media brigade (please refer sabha.info for what is 4M)
I disrespect the level of intellect of cow belt people ya unlike you intelectul Bangalis who elect commies who supported China and Stalin and every 2 bit commie despot the world over and actually spearhead the infiltration of traitors and 5th columnists in the country.
FYI Advani is just a cog in the Ram Mandir movement and not the movement itself. According to recorded history of Muslims and British this struggle has been going on for more than 350 years. (350 yrs of recorded struggle).
you can not unite entire nation under the banner of Lord Rama. You can if that fkstrd Advani had listened to the Baudhik Panch Pandavas Shri Rama Swarupji, Shri Sitaramji Goel, Shri Arun Shourie, Shri Harsh Narain and Shri Koenraad Elst. Instead he chose to listen to that imbecile nincompoop Pramod Mahajan and that Pompous Windbag as described by Shri Sitaramji Goel AB Vajpai.
Read about Dr SP Mukherjee before you make any comments on him
AND FINALLY YOU SOOOOB:
IF IT WERE NOT FOR Dr SP Mukherjee me and many of my ilk WOULD SAY AND SAY LOUDLY:
THROWN BENGAL OUT OF THE UNION.
Fk u
Sanatani
#127 Posted by nkg on July 11, 2008 2:01:39 am
Re: # 114
Sanatani...
Do we need temple for Lord Rama? I don't think it should be one of the primary areas of concern for any Indian. That is the reason, I disrespect the level of intellect of cow belt people....
L K Advani was one of the prime mover of temple movement. After being indicted by Liberhan Commission, he is distancing himself from the movement. BJP is already keeping this issue out of agenda in recent polls. India is such multicultural and multilingual country, you can not unite entire nation under the banner of Lord Rama ( though, I would have been happy to see that)....
Shymaprasad was not spearheading Ram Temple movement at any point in life. He was educated person and knew what to do to keep this urdooo/mediaval arab barbarism away from India. Anyhow, he had failed to create large political force, as Gandhi was occupying much of the space...
Sanatani...
Do we need temple for Lord Rama? I don't think it should be one of the primary areas of concern for any Indian. That is the reason, I disrespect the level of intellect of cow belt people....
L K Advani was one of the prime mover of temple movement. After being indicted by Liberhan Commission, he is distancing himself from the movement. BJP is already keeping this issue out of agenda in recent polls. India is such multicultural and multilingual country, you can not unite entire nation under the banner of Lord Rama ( though, I would have been happy to see that)....
Shymaprasad was not spearheading Ram Temple movement at any point in life. He was educated person and knew what to do to keep this urdooo/mediaval arab barbarism away from India. Anyhow, he had failed to create large political force, as Gandhi was occupying much of the space...
#126 Posted by pinku on July 10, 2008 10:03:11 pm
mudslinging???? itni mud kiththe se aayegi?
allaha kya maange??
kutch boti.
kitti badi badi?
bohot moti moti.
kitte logon ki?
jinki bhi khaali khopdi
ke karega vo?
syahi baneyaga, shayari likhega
aur phir?
phir ke?? kutch hoor, kutch boti aur bhara jaam, allaha hone ka, ke ye kam hai inaam???
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
allaha kya maange??
kutch boti.
kitti badi badi?
bohot moti moti.
kitte logon ki?
jinki bhi khaali khopdi
ke karega vo?
syahi baneyaga, shayari likhega
aur phir?
phir ke?? kutch hoor, kutch boti aur bhara jaam, allaha hone ka, ke ye kam hai inaam???
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
#125 Posted by Mr.India on July 10, 2008 9:45:22 pm
Re: # 122
If i am correct in your implication What brits to britishers is NOT the same as what Pak is to India .Britishers at best have only two identities whereas indian paki kashmiris bengali punjabi have multiple identities. Its another thing what on individual level in theee mind think but its not a crime for indian to like pakistan of any religion .There are Arjun Mohar just as there are Catchy h.P who themselves are not residing in there own country hypocrites barking dogs .Let them bark
If i am correct in your implication What brits to britishers is NOT the same as what Pak is to India .Britishers at best have only two identities whereas indian paki kashmiris bengali punjabi have multiple identities. Its another thing what on individual level in theee mind think but its not a crime for indian to like pakistan of any religion .There are Arjun Mohar just as there are Catchy h.P who themselves are not residing in there own country hypocrites barking dogs .Let them bark
#123 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 7:09:21 pm
pinku #120 er..um..hmmmm...intelligent idea?..sure beats stupid idea..but then ..abuse??..scolding....well..scratch, scratch..uh..hmmm..well-l-l-l..ok, whatever you say boss.
#122 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 6:30:37 pm
I have only ventured upon some of the articles by Farzana and the impression I get is that here is a person who desperately wants to hang on to the accident of birth "opportunity" of calling them selves "Indian" and to present a seemingly "out-siders'" point of view on Pakistan.
there are many "more British than the 'Brits'" muslims but when it comes to even the slightest conflict (usually perceived than real) between muslim mythology and Britain, it becomes very obvious where their allegiances lie.........perhaps another example would be some white South Africans presenting themselves to their white friends elsewhere as "africans".....
....I could be wrong though
there are many "more British than the 'Brits'" muslims but when it comes to even the slightest conflict (usually perceived than real) between muslim mythology and Britain, it becomes very obvious where their allegiances lie.........perhaps another example would be some white South Africans presenting themselves to their white friends elsewhere as "africans".....
....I could be wrong though
#121 Posted by anil on July 10, 2008 3:54:20 pm
Farzana:
Congratulations, how can I get a signed copy of your book?
Congratulations, how can I get a signed copy of your book?
#120 Posted by pinku on July 10, 2008 10:51:50 am
replying #87 and others Posted by tahmed32,
dear tahmed (+ others if interested),
Sarcasm apart, instead of getting one whole intelligent being (like finding one here on chowk), i prefer to find bits and pieces of intelligence and combine them. You are still not guranteed to get a complete intelligent idea! But at least you avoid the effort to get one solid superior being (so rare now a days when everybody knwos something or other) and also the risk of being fooled by relying on one single intelligent person:-) But as you already know, the pieces that i select still depend on my own intelligence, I just rely on my mind which is supposed to be intelligent or should work towards intelligence if allowed to work freely (that asshole mind is still on my mercy:-)).
Instead of fooling our own mind it is better that internally we think honestly even if we have to abuse the person who gave us the good idea (because that "bast**" showed that I am less intelligent person in front of so many people).
So believe me, I will try to imbibe any any intelligent idea given by you, even if I end up scolding/abusing you here.
All we need is keep talking, keep abusing but just ensure that we do not hurt each other too much. It will work as a medicine eventually and the purpose that seem to be getting defeated will actually get fullfilled. The problem is that we are talking to very few people.
#119 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 10:04:08 am
Re: # 95
Tahmed does not believe the shit the Jihadists peddle.
But u on the other hand do believe what their cousins peddle.
And do u also believe in the tooth fairy that is setting of bombs across India.
The pickpocket and defeatist mentality of Hindus desperate to clutch at straws as the truth does not suit them.
Sanatani
Tahmed does not believe the shit the Jihadists peddle.
But u on the other hand do believe what their cousins peddle.
And do u also believe in the tooth fairy that is setting of bombs across India.
The pickpocket and defeatist mentality of Hindus desperate to clutch at straws as the truth does not suit them.
Sanatani
#118 Posted by Senna on July 10, 2008 10:01:16 am
Re: # 113
What is religion supreme court is still wrestling with the idea and has not come up with adequate definition!
What is religion supreme court is still wrestling with the idea and has not come up with adequate definition!
#117 Posted by ajeya on July 10, 2008 10:00:31 am
#20 hurricane
[yaar, I'm not the one always harping on about how "evil" the "other" is. About violence etc? I am talking about peace, against injustice, and for love. I guess that makes me an "ulta khopri"? :)
You should be proud to have great thinkers and intellectual giants like Farzana and Arundhati amongst your ocean of mental midgets :) ]
Finally! An Islamic intellectual and free-thinker! I knew they existed somewhere...
Er..how about Salman Rushdie? Where does he rank? Intellectual giant or mental midget?
[yaar, I'm not the one always harping on about how "evil" the "other" is. About violence etc? I am talking about peace, against injustice, and for love. I guess that makes me an "ulta khopri"? :)
You should be proud to have great thinkers and intellectual giants like Farzana and Arundhati amongst your ocean of mental midgets :) ]
Finally! An Islamic intellectual and free-thinker! I knew they existed somewhere...
Er..how about Salman Rushdie? Where does he rank? Intellectual giant or mental midget?
#116 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 9:48:54 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#115 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 9:44:12 am
Re: # 71
VRV very well written with an IQ of 50 you are able to write almost equal to one who has an IQ of 75 i.e. an idiot.
How do u manage to produce such gems, please share the secret?
The problem with Bharat Mata that she has sons like u some serving is in RAW, IB, MI, defenece and foreign ministries.
Sanatani
VRV very well written with an IQ of 50 you are able to write almost equal to one who has an IQ of 75 i.e. an idiot.
How do u manage to produce such gems, please share the secret?
The problem with Bharat Mata that she has sons like u some serving is in RAW, IB, MI, defenece and foreign ministries.
Sanatani
#114 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 9:36:37 am
Re: # 66
What is foolish about Shri Bhagwan Ramchnadraji Mandir movement u dirtbag bangali.
After Dr SP Mukherjee and Ashutosh Lahiri we get pieces of shit like u.
Sanatani
What is foolish about Shri Bhagwan Ramchnadraji Mandir movement u dirtbag bangali.
After Dr SP Mukherjee and Ashutosh Lahiri we get pieces of shit like u.
Sanatani
#113 Posted by guru on July 10, 2008 9:34:18 am
Suppose for argument sake if India bans practices of all non Indian religions,
what bad things will hapeen and
what good things will happen?
The good, which will happen is lot of paper will be saved, which is good for environment, by putting F Versey out of writing business?
what bad things will hapeen and
what good things will happen?
The good, which will happen is lot of paper will be saved, which is good for environment, by putting F Versey out of writing business?
#112 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 9:03:29 am
Re: # 58
Who is the Hindu hardliner apart from me?
Sanatani
Who is the Hindu hardliner apart from me?
Sanatani
#111 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 8:51:32 am
Re: # 49
She is not human so the adjective used is pointless.
She is a lying piece of shit, a traitress and vermin.
In any half decent country she would be shot.
Sanatani
She is not human so the adjective used is pointless.
She is a lying piece of shit, a traitress and vermin.
In any half decent country she would be shot.
Sanatani
#110 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 8:44:32 am
Re: # 34
Zee bhaiya,
dont f***k with Stuka or you are going to feel like the french cavalry commanders on the maginot line.
Just a friendly piece of advice posted in complete Panjabi bhaichara.
Now pls answer his questions regarding Panju Kahmiri etc.
I will also pose 1 of my own. When is the last time u heard a mirpuri a balti a ladakhi a chitrali a gilgiti or a Punchi describe himself as Kashmiri? The Gujjars call themselves Gujjars and look down at the Mughals neither of whom calls himself Kashmiri but go and talk to a Pandit whose surname ends with OO who after 350 yrs in Hyderabad calls himself a Kashmiri Pandit and is endogamous with women of the same caste who follow those ancient rituals followed from maybe 2,000 + years thus validating his claim to call himself the same. Why we can say that is because our genealogical records are kept by Brahmins at Matan, Hardwar, Kashi, Ujjain, Prayag and Nashik, unlike your creed who are jutt or gujjar or choorha or shoodar (not to stukla muslais can be called choor or shoodar) but claim descent from the peadophile murderer.
And no despite what Stuka says u will not get any more of Indian territory though if u got Kashmir you wll get 3/4ths of all of Salim Chauhans Indian cousins (Bangla will get the rest 1/4th). Be careful what you wish for.
You Panjabi Bhra
Sanatani
Zee bhaiya,
dont f***k with Stuka or you are going to feel like the french cavalry commanders on the maginot line.
Just a friendly piece of advice posted in complete Panjabi bhaichara.
Now pls answer his questions regarding Panju Kahmiri etc.
I will also pose 1 of my own. When is the last time u heard a mirpuri a balti a ladakhi a chitrali a gilgiti or a Punchi describe himself as Kashmiri? The Gujjars call themselves Gujjars and look down at the Mughals neither of whom calls himself Kashmiri but go and talk to a Pandit whose surname ends with OO who after 350 yrs in Hyderabad calls himself a Kashmiri Pandit and is endogamous with women of the same caste who follow those ancient rituals followed from maybe 2,000 + years thus validating his claim to call himself the same. Why we can say that is because our genealogical records are kept by Brahmins at Matan, Hardwar, Kashi, Ujjain, Prayag and Nashik, unlike your creed who are jutt or gujjar or choorha or shoodar (not to stukla muslais can be called choor or shoodar) but claim descent from the peadophile murderer.
And no despite what Stuka says u will not get any more of Indian territory though if u got Kashmir you wll get 3/4ths of all of Salim Chauhans Indian cousins (Bangla will get the rest 1/4th). Be careful what you wish for.
You Panjabi Bhra
Sanatani
#109 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 8:26:15 am
Re: # 29
Stuke,
chootha farh ditian. It seems to me there are no East Punjabi muslais all are Kashews. bTW the Kashmiri Hindus even though settled as far as Hyderabad can be called authentic Kashmiri as the accent was the only thing they lost was their accent not their language, traditions etc. except renegades like motilal nehru.
That other PRI (paki resident of India) MJ Akbar claimed similar descent about his mothers parents who were from Gurdaspur.
At a party when I quizzed him a liitle he turned sour and walked away. When I persisted with him on his book riot after riot on his statement that it is not what is true but what the sentiments of a people are about documenting the Moradabad riot in 1981 when a pig strayed opnto a muslai prayer meeting and the muslais charged at the cops leading to firing and over a 100 deaths and asked him to juxtapose the same to Hindus over the cow he could not debate became abusive and walked out]
This paragon of Indianness recently lectured the Hindus on what Indianness is about and how they should accept and accomodate the aspirations of muslais which was their right and not a favour.
Sanatani
Stuke,
chootha farh ditian. It seems to me there are no East Punjabi muslais all are Kashews. bTW the Kashmiri Hindus even though settled as far as Hyderabad can be called authentic Kashmiri as the accent was the only thing they lost was their accent not their language, traditions etc. except renegades like motilal nehru.
That other PRI (paki resident of India) MJ Akbar claimed similar descent about his mothers parents who were from Gurdaspur.
At a party when I quizzed him a liitle he turned sour and walked away. When I persisted with him on his book riot after riot on his statement that it is not what is true but what the sentiments of a people are about documenting the Moradabad riot in 1981 when a pig strayed opnto a muslai prayer meeting and the muslais charged at the cops leading to firing and over a 100 deaths and asked him to juxtapose the same to Hindus over the cow he could not debate became abusive and walked out]
This paragon of Indianness recently lectured the Hindus on what Indianness is about and how they should accept and accomodate the aspirations of muslais which was their right and not a favour.
Sanatani
#108 Posted by Shattered_Sun on July 10, 2008 7:45:20 am
Re: # 65
"on the one way mudslinging - i am not kidding, you are kidding yourself. if you find this hard to believe, check out the posts on this board starting from post 1 from the nutcase laddu who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, followed by arjun who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, and so on."
So what are you saying that since there are Indian posters that mudsling there are no Pakistani posters that mudsling? I did not differentiate between the two. See posts 24 and 37 for example at http://www.chowk.com/interacts/14316/1/0/a
Even Senora Qureshi recognizes this in her post 54 in that interact.
"on BJP you kid yourself again when you say BJP has been long gone from power. Historically, BJP has been the second largest party after Congress, was in power in the cen ter, remains the second largest party after Congress. Known criminals No, sir. We dont have anything close to this in Pakistan."
This sounds confusing the BJP are not part of the government but they are in power? Furthermore the religious parties that supported Musharraf up to this point may yet again be a force to reckoned with. Besides the BJP today is far more centric and less Hindu nationalist than it was before.
"Pakistan going down the shithole thank you for your good wishes. i dont know why so many indians are so spiteful, but i can only thank God we have to put up with people like you on the internet only."
When did I say I wished any ill will on Pakistan? My statement was that Pakistan was going down the shithole of religous zealotry thanks to a bunch of fundo-freaks, it is a statement of fact not of want or desire. To the contrary i think it is sad that all the religious BS is butchering Jinnah's vision of a secularist pakistan. If you want to ascribe underlying motives to my comments that fit your worldview that is your business, but as for me I say what mean and mean whay I say.
"Maybe one day Indians will realize that there is a better way to live than by holding on to 60 year old grudges and 1000 year old grudges, with spite rather than goodwill towards others. But I wont hold my breath waiting for that day!!"
I hold no grudges. In fact, being in my mid twenties, I honestly could not care less what happened 30 years ago let alone 60 years ago. Same goes for many of my atheist/agnostic Pakistani friends who rant far more than me agianst this religious plauge that is turning their motherland into a shithole. Sorry we prefer to pay attention to problems of the world instead of deluding ourselves into believeing otherwise in order to avoid painful truths.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
"on the one way mudslinging - i am not kidding, you are kidding yourself. if you find this hard to believe, check out the posts on this board starting from post 1 from the nutcase laddu who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, followed by arjun who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, and so on."
So what are you saying that since there are Indian posters that mudsling there are no Pakistani posters that mudsling? I did not differentiate between the two. See posts 24 and 37 for example at http://www.chowk.com/interacts/14316/1/0/a
Even Senora Qureshi recognizes this in her post 54 in that interact.
"on BJP you kid yourself again when you say BJP has been long gone from power. Historically, BJP has been the second largest party after Congress, was in power in the cen ter, remains the second largest party after Congress. Known criminals No, sir. We dont have anything close to this in Pakistan."
This sounds confusing the BJP are not part of the government but they are in power? Furthermore the religious parties that supported Musharraf up to this point may yet again be a force to reckoned with. Besides the BJP today is far more centric and less Hindu nationalist than it was before.
"Pakistan going down the shithole thank you for your good wishes. i dont know why so many indians are so spiteful, but i can only thank God we have to put up with people like you on the internet only."
When did I say I wished any ill will on Pakistan? My statement was that Pakistan was going down the shithole of religous zealotry thanks to a bunch of fundo-freaks, it is a statement of fact not of want or desire. To the contrary i think it is sad that all the religious BS is butchering Jinnah's vision of a secularist pakistan. If you want to ascribe underlying motives to my comments that fit your worldview that is your business, but as for me I say what mean and mean whay I say.
"Maybe one day Indians will realize that there is a better way to live than by holding on to 60 year old grudges and 1000 year old grudges, with spite rather than goodwill towards others. But I wont hold my breath waiting for that day!!"
I hold no grudges. In fact, being in my mid twenties, I honestly could not care less what happened 30 years ago let alone 60 years ago. Same goes for many of my atheist/agnostic Pakistani friends who rant far more than me agianst this religious plauge that is turning their motherland into a shithole. Sorry we prefer to pay attention to problems of the world instead of deluding ourselves into believeing otherwise in order to avoid painful truths.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
#107 Posted by mohar11 on July 10, 2008 7:07:02 am
heard on NPR - israel is planning to revoke citizenship any arab who commits or supports jihadism, deny state benefits and dump their family in out in the desert somewhere... this is after some pali did the bulldozer attack a week back...
May be we should do something similar... People supporting jihad while sipping Rs80/- tea should be first banned from Sea Lounge Hotel and their citizenship suspended for a year - they should be air-dropped in kandahar with a a year supply of burkha and sheeps... Let's see how that works for the ardent apologists of islamic jihad... :)
May be we should do something similar... People supporting jihad while sipping Rs80/- tea should be first banned from Sea Lounge Hotel and their citizenship suspended for a year - they should be air-dropped in kandahar with a a year supply of burkha and sheeps... Let's see how that works for the ardent apologists of islamic jihad... :)
#106 Posted by nkg on July 10, 2008 6:53:27 am
Re: # 73
Majumder....
"MAJ...."
I can see Sachin Pilot kind of person in him. Be educated and keep your folks in darkness.
Reality was that, muslims alone can not create an enlightened society, without help of Indians (most of the teachers, professors were brahmins). Creating a separate state for moslems ( overnight) was not modernist idea...
Majumder....
"MAJ...."
I can see Sachin Pilot kind of person in him. Be educated and keep your folks in darkness.
Reality was that, muslims alone can not create an enlightened society, without help of Indians (most of the teachers, professors were brahmins). Creating a separate state for moslems ( overnight) was not modernist idea...
#105 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 5:51:20 am
Re: # 103; arjun
I simply borrowed it from tahmed sahib's information page
I simply borrowed it from tahmed sahib's information page
#103 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:46:38 am
#102 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 5:38:08 am
live long and prosperous....as tahmed bhai would say
isn't that what mr spock and the vulcans would say..of course, prophetboy is from another planet too..
live long and prosperous....as tahmed bhai would say
isn't that what mr spock and the vulcans would say..of course, prophetboy is from another planet too..
#102 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 5:38:08 am
Re: # 98; arjun mian
please accept my heart felt condolenscences on the sad demise of _arjun.....9
it is a sad state of affairs indeed and once again I'd voice my protest against such censorship of the worst and disproportionate kind
live long and prosperous....as tahmed bhai would say
please accept my heart felt condolenscences on the sad demise of _arjun.....9
it is a sad state of affairs indeed and once again I'd voice my protest against such censorship of the worst and disproportionate kind
live long and prosperous....as tahmed bhai would say
#101 Posted by bulleya on July 10, 2008 5:33:58 am
who uttered these words and when.......was it masadi, or was it urstruly, or was it....?
"....mankind as whole is today standing on the threshold of great events - events that at times seem to threaten its very existence. On the one hand are those groups, parties, or persons that are prepared to go to war in defence of colonialism, imperialism, and their profits. These groups, at the head of which stands the ruling circles in America, are determined to perpetuate a permanent atmosphere of crisis and fear in the world. Knowing that a frightened world cannot think clearly, these groups attempt to create conditions under which the common men might be inveigled into supporting the building of more and more atomic bombs, bacteriological weapons, and other instruments of mass destruction. These crazy men whose prototype is to be found at the head of the trusts and cartels of America and Western Europe do not realise that they will suffer the destruction that they are contemplating for their innocent fellow beings. But they are desperate and become more so as they realise the determination of the common men to preserve peace. Yes, the common man who for generations has been the tool of insane politicians and governments, who has suffered privations and sorrow in wars that were of profit to tiny privileged groups, is today rising from being the object of history [to] becoming the subject of history. For the ordinary men and women in the world, the oppressed all over the world are becoming the conscious creators of their own history. They are pledged to carve their destiny and not to leave it in the hands of tiny ruling circles - or classes. Whilst the dark and sinister forces in the world are organising a desperate and last-minute fight to defend a decadent and bankrupt civilisation, the common people, full of confidence and buoyant hope, struggle for the creation of a new, united, and prosperous human family. That this is so can be gathered from the increasingly militant and heroic struggle that is being waged in all colonial countries against heavy odds. Our mother body has in clean and unmistakable terms indicated in which camp we are in the general world contest. We are with the oppressed all over the world and are irrevocably opposed to imperialism in any form.
.....the colonial powers - Great Britain, Portugal, France, Italy, Spain...- are attempting with the help of the notorious American ruling class to maintain colonial rule and oppression. Millions of pounds are pouring into the continent in the form of capital for the exploitation of our resources in the sole interests of the imperialist powers. So-called geological and archaeological expeditions are roaming the continent ostensibly engaged in gathering material for the advancement of science and the furtherance of humanity but being in reality the advance guard of American penetration. It is important for us...as a whole to realise that but for the support of American finance it would have been difficult if not impossible for the Western colonial powers to maintain rule ...anywhere in the world. In thinking of the direct enemies...namely, Great Britain, Spain, France, Portugal, Italy ... we must never forget the indirect enemy, the infinitely more dangerous enemy who sustains all those with loans, capital, and arms."
"....mankind as whole is today standing on the threshold of great events - events that at times seem to threaten its very existence. On the one hand are those groups, parties, or persons that are prepared to go to war in defence of colonialism, imperialism, and their profits. These groups, at the head of which stands the ruling circles in America, are determined to perpetuate a permanent atmosphere of crisis and fear in the world. Knowing that a frightened world cannot think clearly, these groups attempt to create conditions under which the common men might be inveigled into supporting the building of more and more atomic bombs, bacteriological weapons, and other instruments of mass destruction. These crazy men whose prototype is to be found at the head of the trusts and cartels of America and Western Europe do not realise that they will suffer the destruction that they are contemplating for their innocent fellow beings. But they are desperate and become more so as they realise the determination of the common men to preserve peace. Yes, the common man who for generations has been the tool of insane politicians and governments, who has suffered privations and sorrow in wars that were of profit to tiny privileged groups, is today rising from being the object of history [to] becoming the subject of history. For the ordinary men and women in the world, the oppressed all over the world are becoming the conscious creators of their own history. They are pledged to carve their destiny and not to leave it in the hands of tiny ruling circles - or classes. Whilst the dark and sinister forces in the world are organising a desperate and last-minute fight to defend a decadent and bankrupt civilisation, the common people, full of confidence and buoyant hope, struggle for the creation of a new, united, and prosperous human family. That this is so can be gathered from the increasingly militant and heroic struggle that is being waged in all colonial countries against heavy odds. Our mother body has in clean and unmistakable terms indicated in which camp we are in the general world contest. We are with the oppressed all over the world and are irrevocably opposed to imperialism in any form.
.....the colonial powers - Great Britain, Portugal, France, Italy, Spain...- are attempting with the help of the notorious American ruling class to maintain colonial rule and oppression. Millions of pounds are pouring into the continent in the form of capital for the exploitation of our resources in the sole interests of the imperialist powers. So-called geological and archaeological expeditions are roaming the continent ostensibly engaged in gathering material for the advancement of science and the furtherance of humanity but being in reality the advance guard of American penetration. It is important for us...as a whole to realise that but for the support of American finance it would have been difficult if not impossible for the Western colonial powers to maintain rule ...anywhere in the world. In thinking of the direct enemies...namely, Great Britain, Spain, France, Portugal, Italy ... we must never forget the indirect enemy, the infinitely more dangerous enemy who sustains all those with loans, capital, and arms."
#100 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:32:36 am
#96 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:27:34 am
digging up some negative news about Pakistan
Prophetboy: in real reality(as opposed to the reality in pakiworld(tm), the news item about the jihadis flocking to pakiland is at the top of the nytimes.com site.
digging up some negative news about Pakistan
Prophetboy: in real reality(as opposed to the reality in pakiworld(tm), the news item about the jihadis flocking to pakiland is at the top of the nytimes.com site.
#99 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:31:33 am
#97 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:28:22 am
prophet tahmed(pbuhsrr): your sense of humor is like halley's comet...shows up for a brief period every 76 years...
prophet tahmed(pbuhsrr): your sense of humor is like halley's comet...shows up for a brief period every 76 years...
#98 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:29:43 am
#94 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 5:24:11 am
prophetboy does mental yoga...where he closes his eyes, ignores reality and creates an alternate universe where his worldview is THE reality..
physical yoga requires you you to do some serious physical contortions..prophetboy's yoga requires mental and logical contortions..
prophetboy does mental yoga...where he closes his eyes, ignores reality and creates an alternate universe where his worldview is THE reality..
physical yoga requires you you to do some serious physical contortions..prophetboy's yoga requires mental and logical contortions..
#97 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:28:22 am
#95 good boy, arjun. now go fetch some more!! ;-)
#96 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:27:34 am
#94 this is cyber yoga, dr sahib. mister arjun is the yoga-master, and actually levitates himself (like maharishi yogi) with delight when digging up some negative news about Pakistan (of which admittedly we have more than we need lately).
#95 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:26:49 am
attaboy maulana dude(s)..the turd SP MP should be sent to gitmo...you know...gitmo..where, contrary to prophetboy's version of reality, there are no indians and a whole lot of pakis...
Nothing against N-deal: Muslim organisations
10 Jul 2008, 0340 hrs IST, Mohammed Wajihuddin & Faizan Ahmad,TNN
MUMBAI/PATNA/DELHI: Muslim organisations across the country have debunked perceptions in certain political groups that India's largest religious minority is opposed to the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal.
Saying that the nuclear deal was a political and strategic issue and that it should be seen as such, organisations like the Jamat-e-Islami Hind, All India Muslim Personal Law Board as well as several other state-level bodies have said Muslims aren't opposed to the nuclear deal in any manner.
"If the deal is good for the country, it will be good for the Muslims," said Maulana Bunai Noaim Hasani, general secretary, All India Ulema Board. Maulana Hasani said an impression had been given that Muslims were anti-nuke deal because of their opposition to the policies of US president George Bush.
"Muslims might be anti-Bush, but Bush isn't America. We, like other communities, back India on issues beneficial to the country," he added. In Delhi, Jamat-e-Islami Hind spokesperson Anwar Hussain said, "Muslims are not opposed to the deal."
There's a feeling among clerics that some ill-informed maulvis have issued statements against the deal without understanding it. "The deal has nothing to do with Muslims or any other community. It's about using nuclear fuel and if India gets strengthened by this, how are Muslims hurt?" asked Mumbai-based Shia scholar Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi.
Some Muslims have apparently shown wariness toward the deal because of "rumours" that Israel would gain from it.
"I've heard Israel will somehow get strengthened because of the deal. Since most Muslims oppose the Jewish state, an impression has been created that they are against the deal," said Mumbai-based cleric Maulana Abu Zaffar Hassan Nadvi. "Let the country decide whatever is in its best interest. Let's not see the deal from the prisms of community or religions."
In Patna, AIMPLB general secretary Maulana Syed Nizamuddin said the issue must not be given a religious hue. "Few days back, we had a meeting in Delhi and it was explained to everybody," he said, and added if any board member has issued a statement on the matter, it must be seen as a remark in his personal capacity.
Maulana Nizamuddin was perhaps reacting to board vice president Maulana Kalbe Sadiq who said in Lucknow that the deal was anti-Muslim. Some other clerics too had joined in chorus. "Muslims need peace, development and justice. They need jobs and security. They are least bothered about the foreign policy," Maulana Nizamuddin said.
Nothing against N-deal: Muslim organisations
10 Jul 2008, 0340 hrs IST, Mohammed Wajihuddin & Faizan Ahmad,TNN
MUMBAI/PATNA/DELHI: Muslim organisations across the country have debunked perceptions in certain political groups that India's largest religious minority is opposed to the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal.
Saying that the nuclear deal was a political and strategic issue and that it should be seen as such, organisations like the Jamat-e-Islami Hind, All India Muslim Personal Law Board as well as several other state-level bodies have said Muslims aren't opposed to the nuclear deal in any manner.
"If the deal is good for the country, it will be good for the Muslims," said Maulana Bunai Noaim Hasani, general secretary, All India Ulema Board. Maulana Hasani said an impression had been given that Muslims were anti-nuke deal because of their opposition to the policies of US president George Bush.
"Muslims might be anti-Bush, but Bush isn't America. We, like other communities, back India on issues beneficial to the country," he added. In Delhi, Jamat-e-Islami Hind spokesperson Anwar Hussain said, "Muslims are not opposed to the deal."
There's a feeling among clerics that some ill-informed maulvis have issued statements against the deal without understanding it. "The deal has nothing to do with Muslims or any other community. It's about using nuclear fuel and if India gets strengthened by this, how are Muslims hurt?" asked Mumbai-based Shia scholar Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi.
Some Muslims have apparently shown wariness toward the deal because of "rumours" that Israel would gain from it.
"I've heard Israel will somehow get strengthened because of the deal. Since most Muslims oppose the Jewish state, an impression has been created that they are against the deal," said Mumbai-based cleric Maulana Abu Zaffar Hassan Nadvi. "Let the country decide whatever is in its best interest. Let's not see the deal from the prisms of community or religions."
In Patna, AIMPLB general secretary Maulana Syed Nizamuddin said the issue must not be given a religious hue. "Few days back, we had a meeting in Delhi and it was explained to everybody," he said, and added if any board member has issued a statement on the matter, it must be seen as a remark in his personal capacity.
Maulana Nizamuddin was perhaps reacting to board vice president Maulana Kalbe Sadiq who said in Lucknow that the deal was anti-Muslim. Some other clerics too had joined in chorus. "Muslims need peace, development and justice. They need jobs and security. They are least bothered about the foreign policy," Maulana Nizamuddin said.
#93 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:23:33 am
cheema sahib: what do you think of my medical advice to Ms. Ferzana Versey in #88?
#92 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:22:04 am
#91 just my usual early morning yoga with our indian neighbors, doctor sahib. surely as doctor you would appreciate it.
#91 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 5:20:07 am
Re: # 90; tahmed sahib
looks like someone has upset you today sir?
looks like someone has upset you today sir?
#90 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 5:16:16 am
#89 i see you share with pinku-jee this non-blurred vision (see #87).
#89 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 5:11:29 am
prophetboy...what's up with the islamic terrorists flocking to pakiland...
how dare reality go against your worldview!! how dare it!!
how dare reality go against your worldview!! how dare it!!
#88 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 4:39:59 am
after reading FVs interview in the attached "book review" (a misnomer!), it seems to me that FV needs therapy. Life must be really miserable when seen through in her lens.
FV: if you you are reading this, try starting the day thinking of three things you have to be grateful for. You dont need to be so miserable at thigns around you (whether you are in India or in Pakistan) all the time. Life's too short. Seriously.
FV: if you you are reading this, try starting the day thinking of three things you have to be grateful for. You dont need to be so miserable at thigns around you (whether you are in India or in Pakistan) all the time. Life's too short. Seriously.
#87 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 4:22:23 am
one more thing, further to #85: "You can not simply wish that people don't talk about Pakistan or Islam. "
That is not what i wrote, btw. but dont let what i actually wrote blur your vision on what i really meant to write.
PS: hope this miserable musla attempt at sarcasm meets with your approval too. :-)
That is not what i wrote, btw. but dont let what i actually wrote blur your vision on what i really meant to write.
PS: hope this miserable musla attempt at sarcasm meets with your approval too. :-)
#86 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 4:16:31 am
#84 what wonderful news for you!! be sure you dont throw up the monkeybreakfast you had this morning with excitement.
PS: thanks also for proving my point number 3 in #65 below. what would i do without you on chowk!! :-)
PS: thanks also for proving my point number 3 in #65 below. what would i do without you on chowk!! :-)
#85 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2008 4:14:32 am
#70 you write a couple of pages sarcastically repeating the same point (i.e. you disagree with the two obvious points I made in #65, plus some additional points you made up). Now that is what I call an example of intelligent writing!!
PS: note miserable musla attempt above at being sarcastic too. :-)
PS: note miserable musla attempt above at being sarcastic too. :-)
#84 Posted by _arjun10 on July 10, 2008 3:58:26 am
what's this...reality is out of synch with prophetboy's worldview!! bad reality!! no prophetboy made donut..
July 10, 2008
Pakistan Is Said to Be Attracting Insurgents
By ERIC SCHMITT
WASHINGTON — American military and intelligence officials say there has been an increase in recent months in the number of foreign fighters who have traveled to Pakistan’s tribal areas to join with militants there.
The flow may reflect a change that is making Pakistan, not Iraq, the preferred destination for some Sunni extremists from the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia who are seeking to take up arms against the West, these officials say.
The American officials say the influx, which could be in the dozens but could also be higher, shows a further strengthening of the position of the forces of Al Qaeda in the tribal areas, increasingly seen as an important base of support for the Taliban, whose forces in Afghanistan have become more aggressive in their campaign against American-led troops.
According to the American officials, many of the fighters making their way to the tribal areas are Uzbeks, North Africans and Arabs from Persian Gulf states. American intelligence officials say that some jihadist Web sites have been encouraging foreign militants to go to Pakistan and Afghanistan, which is considered a “winning fight,? compared with the insurgency in Iraq, which has suffered sharp setbacks recently.
The suicide bombing at the gates of the Indian Embassy in Kabul on Monday underscored the increasing fears of American and Afghan officials that Taliban insurgents working with Pakistani intelligence operatives might have used the bombing to pursue Pakistan’s long power struggle with India.
Al Qaeda and other militant groups have used redoubts in Pakistan’s rugged mountains as havens for the past several years. But especially since the new Pakistani government sharply curtailed security operations in the tribal areas in March and began negotiating with tribal leaders to rein in the militants, the number of foreign fighters entering the tribal areas has increased “from a trickle to a steady stream,? said a Defense Department official who follows Pakistan closely, and who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.
Some of the foreign militants take commercial flights into Pakistan and make their way to the tribal areas by car or bus, while a smaller, undetermined number go overland through Iran and then up through Baluchistan, the Defense Department official said. General McKiernan said, “There are noticeably more non-Pashtun-speaking fighters than this time last year.?
July 10, 2008
Pakistan Is Said to Be Attracting Insurgents
By ERIC SCHMITT
WASHINGTON — American military and intelligence officials say there has been an increase in recent months in the number of foreign fighters who have traveled to Pakistan’s tribal areas to join with militants there.
The flow may reflect a change that is making Pakistan, not Iraq, the preferred destination for some Sunni extremists from the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia who are seeking to take up arms against the West, these officials say.
The American officials say the influx, which could be in the dozens but could also be higher, shows a further strengthening of the position of the forces of Al Qaeda in the tribal areas, increasingly seen as an important base of support for the Taliban, whose forces in Afghanistan have become more aggressive in their campaign against American-led troops.
According to the American officials, many of the fighters making their way to the tribal areas are Uzbeks, North Africans and Arabs from Persian Gulf states. American intelligence officials say that some jihadist Web sites have been encouraging foreign militants to go to Pakistan and Afghanistan, which is considered a “winning fight,? compared with the insurgency in Iraq, which has suffered sharp setbacks recently.
The suicide bombing at the gates of the Indian Embassy in Kabul on Monday underscored the increasing fears of American and Afghan officials that Taliban insurgents working with Pakistani intelligence operatives might have used the bombing to pursue Pakistan’s long power struggle with India.
Al Qaeda and other militant groups have used redoubts in Pakistan’s rugged mountains as havens for the past several years. But especially since the new Pakistani government sharply curtailed security operations in the tribal areas in March and began negotiating with tribal leaders to rein in the militants, the number of foreign fighters entering the tribal areas has increased “from a trickle to a steady stream,? said a Defense Department official who follows Pakistan closely, and who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.
Some of the foreign militants take commercial flights into Pakistan and make their way to the tribal areas by car or bus, while a smaller, undetermined number go overland through Iran and then up through Baluchistan, the Defense Department official said. General McKiernan said, “There are noticeably more non-Pashtun-speaking fighters than this time last year.?
#83 Posted by majumdar on July 10, 2008 3:18:43 am
Cheema sahib,
The paymasters are certainly not orphans. But some of the ground leaders may well be. But again I will leave that to be answered by the pros- Zee sahib/HP sain/Amin sahib/Ijaz sahib.
Regards
The paymasters are certainly not orphans. But some of the ground leaders may well be. But again I will leave that to be answered by the pros- Zee sahib/HP sain/Amin sahib/Ijaz sahib.
Regards
#82 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 3:12:35 am
Re: # 81; majumdar
sorry can't stay for long
Re: "have a quite war orphans too"
are there any "war orphans" in the top order?....or are they simply cannon fodder?.....majumdar, absolutely any group in the world would have people from all walks of life; it is "these" people's status within those groups that is the question
these war orphans serve a very important purpose....cannon fodders and "pictures of distress" shown around the world!
gotta go
Regards
sorry can't stay for long
Re: "have a quite war orphans too"
are there any "war orphans" in the top order?....or are they simply cannon fodder?.....majumdar, absolutely any group in the world would have people from all walks of life; it is "these" people's status within those groups that is the question
these war orphans serve a very important purpose....cannon fodders and "pictures of distress" shown around the world!
gotta go
Regards
#81 Posted by majumdar on July 10, 2008 3:02:41 am
Cheema sahib,
There are Pushtoons from not only Punjab but also from the Mojo community eg Abu bhai (HY).
Your reference to the fact that Pushtoons are victims as much as anyone else is quite correct but I dont think it is factually true that the Talibs are drawn from their elite (Khan/Malik) section. They seem to be drawn from all across the spectrum (Maybe Zee sahib can elaborate on their social composition) and have a quite war orphans too. Rather Khan and Maliks among Pushtoons have been ruthlessly targeted by Mr. Mehsud and their men on ground of their pro-Govt stand.
Regards
There are Pushtoons from not only Punjab but also from the Mojo community eg Abu bhai (HY).
Your reference to the fact that Pushtoons are victims as much as anyone else is quite correct but I dont think it is factually true that the Talibs are drawn from their elite (Khan/Malik) section. They seem to be drawn from all across the spectrum (Maybe Zee sahib can elaborate on their social composition) and have a quite war orphans too. Rather Khan and Maliks among Pushtoons have been ruthlessly targeted by Mr. Mehsud and their men on ground of their pro-Govt stand.
Regards
#80 Posted by akcheema on July 10, 2008 2:55:08 am
Re: # 79; majumdar
I must say Romair's explanation is the closest to the truth in this.......there are "Kashmiris" and then a hell of lot more "psedo-wannabees" who are completely indistinguishable (for all intents and purposes) from an average Punjabi.
May be the same as "Pushtoons" from NWFP and the "wannabees" from Punjab; perhaps these are the 'punjoos' you were referring to on UP.
Even amongst Pushtoons there are the common (aam awam) who are the victims in all this and then their "Khans/Maliks"....who are no different...if anything worse...then elite anywhere else....the Talibs are nothing but one example of these 'groups'.
an example closer to home for me would be the Scots; there are only five million people that inhabit what is Scotland today; the true 'scotts' or 'gaelic' speakers are a few hundred thousand at most......however more than 50 million people aroun the world are "proud" inheritors of a Scottish ancestory.....same with the Irish....gives you some perspective?
Regards
I must say Romair's explanation is the closest to the truth in this.......there are "Kashmiris" and then a hell of lot more "psedo-wannabees" who are completely indistinguishable (for all intents and purposes) from an average Punjabi.
May be the same as "Pushtoons" from NWFP and the "wannabees" from Punjab; perhaps these are the 'punjoos' you were referring to on UP.
Even amongst Pushtoons there are the common (aam awam) who are the victims in all this and then their "Khans/Maliks"....who are no different...if anything worse...then elite anywhere else....the Talibs are nothing but one example of these 'groups'.
an example closer to home for me would be the Scots; there are only five million people that inhabit what is Scotland today; the true 'scotts' or 'gaelic' speakers are a few hundred thousand at most......however more than 50 million people aroun the world are "proud" inheritors of a Scottish ancestory.....same with the Irish....gives you some perspective?
Regards
#79 Posted by majumdar on July 10, 2008 2:07:04 am
Romair,
Re: 78
That kind of sums up the difference in what Indians and Pakistanis speak when they refer to Kashmiris. When an Indian says Kashmiri, he refers to the Kashmiri speaking Muslims and Pandits of the Valley alone (although some include Dogras et al too). When Pakistanis speak about Kashmiris they mean all those ethnic groups who are Muslims and stay/or stayed in the undivided State of J&K.
Regards
Re: 78
That kind of sums up the difference in what Indians and Pakistanis speak when they refer to Kashmiris. When an Indian says Kashmiri, he refers to the Kashmiri speaking Muslims and Pandits of the Valley alone (although some include Dogras et al too). When Pakistanis speak about Kashmiris they mean all those ethnic groups who are Muslims and stay/or stayed in the undivided State of J&K.
Regards
#78 Posted by bulleya on July 10, 2008 1:54:18 am
regarding kashmir - it is, like all other south asian regions, defined as a geographical entity, which consists of multiple ethnic entities and linguistic entities.....
in that sense it is no different from punjab or nwfp or any other area in india......
most pakistanis (and even more indians) don't really have any idea of how the geogrpahical entity of kashmir is divided, along cultural and linguistic lines.....hence they rely on the geographical terminology.......
if one takes the geographical terminology, then kashmir is jammu, ladakh and the kashmir valley on the india side.....and azad kashmir and northern areas on the pakistan side.......plus the part china controls.....
if one looks at it ethnically, then there are all types of mixtures.....ethnic kashmiris who have migrated out of kashmir.......ethnicities of other areas who migrated into kashmir (like a big portion of my family)......
linguistically, there are really only a fraction of people who speak kashmiri.....pakistan's part of kashmir has no native kashmiri speakers.....it is spoken in the indian kashmir valley, and has around four and a half million speakers (out of a total population of around 11 million indian kashmiris).....the only ones in pakistan who speak kashmiri are those who migrated from indian valley......
within pakistan, the northern areas, have multiple languages etc.......what pakistan, now, considers kashmir is azad kashmir - a lengthy piece of land bordering indian kashmir......
for all cultural and linguistic sides, azad kashmir is really an extension of punjab.....everyone there speaks a version of punjabi and is fully integrated into the rest of punjab, through marriages, jobs etc....it fits into the saraiki, potohari, pahari, punjabi mixture of pakistan's punjab.......
in that sense it is no different from punjab or nwfp or any other area in india......
most pakistanis (and even more indians) don't really have any idea of how the geogrpahical entity of kashmir is divided, along cultural and linguistic lines.....hence they rely on the geographical terminology.......
if one takes the geographical terminology, then kashmir is jammu, ladakh and the kashmir valley on the india side.....and azad kashmir and northern areas on the pakistan side.......plus the part china controls.....
if one looks at it ethnically, then there are all types of mixtures.....ethnic kashmiris who have migrated out of kashmir.......ethnicities of other areas who migrated into kashmir (like a big portion of my family)......
linguistically, there are really only a fraction of people who speak kashmiri.....pakistan's part of kashmir has no native kashmiri speakers.....it is spoken in the indian kashmir valley, and has around four and a half million speakers (out of a total population of around 11 million indian kashmiris).....the only ones in pakistan who speak kashmiri are those who migrated from indian valley......
within pakistan, the northern areas, have multiple languages etc.......what pakistan, now, considers kashmir is azad kashmir - a lengthy piece of land bordering indian kashmir......
for all cultural and linguistic sides, azad kashmir is really an extension of punjab.....everyone there speaks a version of punjabi and is fully integrated into the rest of punjab, through marriages, jobs etc....it fits into the saraiki, potohari, pahari, punjabi mixture of pakistan's punjab.......
#77 Posted by harish_hyd on July 10, 2008 1:51:00 am
#73 by majumdar
He was one of the most committed modernisers of the IM society.
Sure Majumdar bhai...LOL!
He was one of the most committed modernisers of the IM society.
Sure Majumdar bhai...LOL!
#76 Posted by Sanatani on July 10, 2008 1:45:08 am
Re: # 16
Boss I am also obessesed by identity that of a Hindu, to keep this identity we sacrificed everything in West Punjab but it was no sacrifice in the end (except the kiilng of our family members and the rape and abduction of some of our women but then that again was the price we paid for being Hindu and following that bas-turd gandhi) as we kept "our identity" as Hindus.
My problem is that how dare, (now that the sacred motherland Shri Bharat Mata has been vivisected to accomadate these converts) that we allow this stinking jihadi biatch to flaunt an islamic identity to us.
BTW this was our and of the Sindhi Amils point of friction with the Khalsa when they (all this pre 1900) said a Sikh identity was the Khalsa and incompatible with being called Hindu (the Tat Khalsa) when it came to choice for all our revernce for the Granths and the Gurus (which was then and is unchanged so today) and the fact that all our important ceremonies are done by Sikh rites (birth death marriage) we could not give up our identity as Hindus and in my personal case the love of idol worship the only reason I did not baptise any one other than my eldest son in the Khalsa.
So pls do not underestimate IDENTITY it is the bedrock which is the Sine Qua Non of our existence if our lives are extiguished it is OK not our identity.
Regards
Sanatani
P.S. On my relatives following gandhi is sad and shameful and we paid the price in full measure as did the nation.
If u see the movie Pinjar and see Alok nath's character well one of my grand uncles was like that and I say with gr8 relish that I caused his early death by shredding his Gandhian dignity to pieces by showing him his falsehood.
DM is such a character
Boss I am also obessesed by identity that of a Hindu, to keep this identity we sacrificed everything in West Punjab but it was no sacrifice in the end (except the kiilng of our family members and the rape and abduction of some of our women but then that again was the price we paid for being Hindu and following that bas-turd gandhi) as we kept "our identity" as Hindus.
My problem is that how dare, (now that the sacred motherland Shri Bharat Mata has been vivisected to accomadate these converts) that we allow this stinking jihadi biatch to flaunt an islamic identity to us.
BTW this was our and of the Sindhi Amils point of friction with the Khalsa when they (all this pre 1900) said a Sikh identity was the Khalsa and incompatible with being called Hindu (the Tat Khalsa) when it came to choice for all our revernce for the Granths and the Gurus (which was then and is unchanged so today) and the fact that all our important ceremonies are done by Sikh rites (birth death marriage) we could not give up our identity as Hindus and in my personal case the love of idol worship the only reason I did not baptise any one other than my eldest son in the Khalsa.
So pls do not underestimate IDENTITY it is the bedrock which is the Sine Qua Non of our existence if our lives are extiguished it is OK not our identity.
Regards
Sanatani
P.S. On my relatives following gandhi is sad and shameful and we paid the price in full measure as did the nation.
If u see the movie Pinjar and see Alok nath's character well one of my grand uncles was like that and I say with gr8 relish that I caused his early death by shredding his Gandhian dignity to pieces by showing him his falsehood.
DM is such a character
#75 Posted by bulleya on July 10, 2008 1:36:02 am
...how can someone write a book on pakistan, after only four visits in six years (or even six visits in four years)....specially if it takes into account sociological aspects like indian muslims, pakistani muslims etc.....
my frequency of visits to india is significantly higher than this......my interaction with indias is orders of magnitude highter than this......yet i can still only claim some expertise on a fraction of india; if that.....far less than what would be needed to write a book.....
i think one should only write books on subjects where one has expertise......otherwise, one ends up putting out far more incorrect information than correct information.....even if it is well-intentioned.....
in such a situation a safar-nama is a better option.....i.e. not a commentary on a country, but a commentary on the trip......
my frequency of visits to india is significantly higher than this......my interaction with indias is orders of magnitude highter than this......yet i can still only claim some expertise on a fraction of india; if that.....far less than what would be needed to write a book.....
i think one should only write books on subjects where one has expertise......otherwise, one ends up putting out far more incorrect information than correct information.....even if it is well-intentioned.....
in such a situation a safar-nama is a better option.....i.e. not a commentary on a country, but a commentary on the trip......
#73 Posted by majumdar on July 10, 2008 12:43:41 am
VRV garu,
Modernist Jinnah (an obvious oxyMORON)
You dont know a thing about MAJ (pbuh). He was one of the most committed modernisers of the IM society.
Regards
Modernist Jinnah (an obvious oxyMORON)
You dont know a thing about MAJ (pbuh). He was one of the most committed modernisers of the IM society.
Regards
#72 Posted by VRV on July 10, 2008 12:41:01 am
I forgot to praise Zeemax for inventing a new phrase i.e. Punjabi Kashmiris.
It'd be great if u can extend the logic & spirit to
Punjabi Sindhis, Punjabi Balochis and Punjabi Pathans.
:)
It'd be great if u can extend the logic & spirit to
Punjabi Sindhis, Punjabi Balochis and Punjabi Pathans.
:)
#71 Posted by VRV on July 10, 2008 12:08:55 am
What to comment on? Book review or FV?
Aurhtor did a decent job on the review tho I have a couple of serious objections..
a. Muslims are threatened and terrorised in India
b. Modernist Jinnah (an obvious oxyMORON)
c. Muslim representation in RAW nad army.
(a) can be said abt some pockets of India. There's no institutionalised discrimination against anybody, leave alone Muslims.
(b) Modernist Jinnah phrase is direcetd at gullible readers who dont bother to know him in full.
(c) Nobody stopped Muslims or anybody from joining the army or RAW. If Sikhs are over represented there it's bcoz they are the samurais of India also who prefer to join the army. If Gorkhas had a regiment in their name it's bcoz they are sturdy and a history of serving the Queen/King & they continue to serve in the army. It's wrong to expect quotas in every sphere of life. India is a free & open country with no disabilities imposed on anybody or group.
++
PPl write books when ppl gain maturity in writing. FV is still a livewire and to expect analysis or cohesion is impossible.
She had a history of biased writing on Indo-Pak issues.
To compare Arundhati with FV is scandalous. Arundhati rejects her religious identity (she never talks forget abt harping) in toto whereas FV lives off her Muslimness and draws her views from that viewpoint.
Authro Shibli, I'd talk abt K'shmeer on another day.
Aurhtor did a decent job on the review tho I have a couple of serious objections..
a. Muslims are threatened and terrorised in India
b. Modernist Jinnah (an obvious oxyMORON)
c. Muslim representation in RAW nad army.
(a) can be said abt some pockets of India. There's no institutionalised discrimination against anybody, leave alone Muslims.
(b) Modernist Jinnah phrase is direcetd at gullible readers who dont bother to know him in full.
(c) Nobody stopped Muslims or anybody from joining the army or RAW. If Sikhs are over represented there it's bcoz they are the samurais of India also who prefer to join the army. If Gorkhas had a regiment in their name it's bcoz they are sturdy and a history of serving the Queen/King & they continue to serve in the army. It's wrong to expect quotas in every sphere of life. India is a free & open country with no disabilities imposed on anybody or group.
++
PPl write books when ppl gain maturity in writing. FV is still a livewire and to expect analysis or cohesion is impossible.
She had a history of biased writing on Indo-Pak issues.
To compare Arundhati with FV is scandalous. Arundhati rejects her religious identity (she never talks forget abt harping) in toto whereas FV lives off her Muslimness and draws her views from that viewpoint.
Authro Shibli, I'd talk abt K'shmeer on another day.
#70 Posted by pinku on July 9, 2008 10:15:08 pm
Re 65 Posted by tahmed32
tahmed32, you are right hindus have become quite communal and uncivilized because now they continuously harp that Islam is not good and muslims have been hijacked by it.
That is not fair, God has written it almost everywhere that only people can hijack Islam and not the vice versa.
I also do not see too many intelligent hindus around, almost all of them are busy bashing Islam or Pakistan all the time, while Pakistan have good inteligent people all of whom are preparing to welcome Indians when the two countries will unite (become Islamic nation?? or all of it will become Saudi Arabia? ok we'll call it Arab land)
In any case truth is that muslims do a lot more than fighting for Islam and that lot more is not just they day to day living. They do a lot many other meanigful things. The Islamic propaganda, tons of sites and those women in Pakistan who say that they will raise their kids for Jihad are not evidence of a larger ideological problem, they are just petty crimes or petty mischiefs that happen with same degree and to similar extent in each country??
Hindus do not plan to wipe out muslims from the face of earth, even a hard core fanatic hindu will not say such a thing seriously, while hard-core muslims will say exactly that with utmost conviction.
These are not trivial problems, it is mere wish that you can keep two brothers together even they have secret plans to kill each other.
As I said so many times, all this so called shit is not written for philosophers or einsteins, it is written for 2% people who can think and make up their mind or can possibly refine their ideas to get closer to truth, to fight the real problems. If everybody was a philosopher who the hell would have created a Pakistan, who the hell needed to create a separate Kashmir, who needs sharia laws everywhere then?
Why do you see maximum responses to an article on Hinduism, or Islam or say India or Pakistan, simply because these are the ideas that people of India and Pakistan are obsessed with.
Doesn't matter how hard you wish, but for years or decades to come, these will remain the hot ideas. You can not simply wish that people don't talk about Pakistan or Islam.
#69 Posted by Ras on July 9, 2008 9:32:11 pm
FV if you read this, congratulations on the book.
Too bad that we could not meet up in Dilli. My
own visit to India did not produce a book but just a
couple of articles on food, friendship and family.
I do not agree with your Pakistan perspective.
It appears that the power
elite there have clouded your thoughts.
The multitudes on both sides of the border have
a similar outlook; How to survive!
But I do want to read your book. Let me know
where I can get a copy here in the US...
If you still have my old email addy send me a message
or use the CHOWK center.
Ras
#68 Posted by nkg on July 9, 2008 9:23:10 pm
#66 Contd...
Tahmed...
Every week, your brothers are closing down girls scools/colleges, forcing women to cover with gunny sack, prohibiting women from participating in elections and other public events.
In Gujrat (your point of objection), Govt. provides incentive to girl students, provides marriage assiatance to poor girls, reserved seats for women in local administrative bodies. In another Modi ( Sushil Modi of Bihar) ruled state, 50% seats in rural body is reserved for women. In Karnataka ( Yeddi of BJP as FM), each poor girl going to school (6th standard) gets free bicycle...
Do these actions match anything with Pakistan?
Tahmed...
Every week, your brothers are closing down girls scools/colleges, forcing women to cover with gunny sack, prohibiting women from participating in elections and other public events.
In Gujrat (your point of objection), Govt. provides incentive to girl students, provides marriage assiatance to poor girls, reserved seats for women in local administrative bodies. In another Modi ( Sushil Modi of Bihar) ruled state, 50% seats in rural body is reserved for women. In Karnataka ( Yeddi of BJP as FM), each poor girl going to school (6th standard) gets free bicycle...
Do these actions match anything with Pakistan?
#67 Posted by SRK on July 9, 2008 9:10:44 pm
In my opinion if some one is harping about identity 24x7, it speaks very low about that persons caliber. Everyone in world has some sort of identity if they cannot find what it is, either that person is dumb or he/she cannot function at individual level (meaning they are worthless on their own).
#66 Posted by nkg on July 9, 2008 8:51:19 pm
Re: # 59
Tahmed....
BJP is not like islamist parties in Pakistan. It is far civilised and democratic than any other organisation in entire Islamic world. Islam and Christianity is alien culture in India (in that matter in Pakistan also). If BJP wants get rid of this mediaval arab barbarism, does that make it comparable with Pakistan based jihadis in garb of political party?
Some of the BJP policies are utter foolish (like Ram temple movement), but as a whole they are better than any other political party in Bangladesh, Pakistan and India.
Women empowerment, minor irrigation, rural infrastructure- BJP and CPI(M) ruled states are far ahead than others.
Tahmed....
BJP is not like islamist parties in Pakistan. It is far civilised and democratic than any other organisation in entire Islamic world. Islam and Christianity is alien culture in India (in that matter in Pakistan also). If BJP wants get rid of this mediaval arab barbarism, does that make it comparable with Pakistan based jihadis in garb of political party?
Some of the BJP policies are utter foolish (like Ram temple movement), but as a whole they are better than any other political party in Bangladesh, Pakistan and India.
Women empowerment, minor irrigation, rural infrastructure- BJP and CPI(M) ruled states are far ahead than others.
#65 Posted by tahmed32 on July 9, 2008 8:05:29 pm
#64 on the one way mudslinging - i am not kidding, you are kidding yourself. if you find this hard to believe, check out the posts on this board starting from post 1 (from the nutcase laddu who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, followed by arjun who is obsessed with islam and pakistan, and so on. GT and Stuka are the only two posters from india who can be considered normal people, capable of civilized discussion. the rest are basically lunatics obsessed with islam and pakistan - and all from india.
on BJP you kid yourself again when you say BJP has been long gone from power. Historically, BJP has been the second largest party after Congress, was in power in the cen ter, remains the second largest party after Congress. Known criminals (like Modi - refused visa to US on account of his murderous activities as..elected state official!!). No, sir. We dont have anything close to this in Pakistan.
Pakistan going down the shithole" thank you for your good wishes. i dont know why so many indians are so spiteful, but i can only thank God we have to put up with people like you on the internet only. I am glad that more Pakistanis are not aware of the level of spite that exists for them among indians, and go out of their way to welcome Indians when they show up in Pakistan. Maybe one day Indians will realize that there is a better way to live than by holding on to 60 year old grudges and 1000 year old grudges, with spite rather than goodwill towards others. But I wont hold my breath waiting for that day!!
on BJP you kid yourself again when you say BJP has been long gone from power. Historically, BJP has been the second largest party after Congress, was in power in the cen ter, remains the second largest party after Congress. Known criminals (like Modi - refused visa to US on account of his murderous activities as..elected state official!!). No, sir. We dont have anything close to this in Pakistan.
Pakistan going down the shithole" thank you for your good wishes. i dont know why so many indians are so spiteful, but i can only thank God we have to put up with people like you on the internet only. I am glad that more Pakistanis are not aware of the level of spite that exists for them among indians, and go out of their way to welcome Indians when they show up in Pakistan. Maybe one day Indians will realize that there is a better way to live than by holding on to 60 year old grudges and 1000 year old grudges, with spite rather than goodwill towards others. But I wont hold my breath waiting for that day!!
#64 Posted by Shattered_Sun on July 9, 2008 7:43:58 pm
Re: # 59
"from chowk it would seem the mudslinging is one way" -
You have got to be kidding me, one has to be blind to not see the numerous mindless and pointless anti-India or anti-hindu posts on this forum.
"from hindu extremists. and voters vote for hindu religious nuts of BJP in India"
I am often amused at how often the word hindu extremists are thrown around. I have never heard of suicide bombers killing people in the name of Hinduism nor militants fighting insurrections in the name of forming a Hindu state.
"while they give muslim religious nuts the boot in elections in pakistan."
So what are you saying? They are some voters in India who voted for the BJP but Pakistan is somehow different because the religious parties have been voted out of power? I am sure you are aware the BJP has been out of power for many years.
"so - it seems that rather than using your own intelligence you are merely repeating the propaganda of Indian governments from 1947 on"
What propoganda is that? That Pakistan is going down the shithole of religious zealotry thanks to to a bunch of fundo-freaks (a la Zia)? That is not propoganda that is seeing the writing on the wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYKacRc-Hjc
http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=Pevce0WXfJI
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
"from chowk it would seem the mudslinging is one way" -
You have got to be kidding me, one has to be blind to not see the numerous mindless and pointless anti-India or anti-hindu posts on this forum.
"from hindu extremists. and voters vote for hindu religious nuts of BJP in India"
I am often amused at how often the word hindu extremists are thrown around. I have never heard of suicide bombers killing people in the name of Hinduism nor militants fighting insurrections in the name of forming a Hindu state.
"while they give muslim religious nuts the boot in elections in pakistan."
So what are you saying? They are some voters in India who voted for the BJP but Pakistan is somehow different because the religious parties have been voted out of power? I am sure you are aware the BJP has been out of power for many years.
"so - it seems that rather than using your own intelligence you are merely repeating the propaganda of Indian governments from 1947 on"
What propoganda is that? That Pakistan is going down the shithole of religious zealotry thanks to to a bunch of fundo-freaks (a la Zia)? That is not propoganda that is seeing the writing on the wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYKacRc-Hjc
http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=Pevce0WXfJI
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
#63 Posted by Kulharee on July 9, 2008 7:22:32 pm
I leave for my summer vacation in 2 weeks, and if I can get it before then, it will make a good beach read.
#62 Posted by Kulharee on July 9, 2008 7:12:01 pm
The HarperCollins website is not processing US orders and lists a number to call. I would like to read the book. I like Farzana’s writings and I am sure I wont be disappointed.
#61 Posted by pinku on July 9, 2008 6:41:38 pm
Identity crisis??
I can say at least one thing, Islam is the most talked about religion, though mostly for bad reasons. Yet it is so difficult to talk anything about it, because it has almost nothing in it. And when you have to make arguments based on close to nothing, all you can use is your own identity, your own ego.
And .....
and .....
and...
....that creates identity crisis.
After all if you focus too much on your identity without being a philosopher, you will certainly end up with a crisis.
That is the reason why Pakistani and eventually all muslims will go through this crisis, sooner or later.
dost mitter what is that book of Aietjaj "indus something"???? ok I will google it sooner or later, if you think it simply can't be summarized...:-)
#60 Posted by neembu on July 9, 2008 6:05:48 pm
Did my post get munched up?
Mubarak and Congrats Farzana Begum on your first book!
Mubarak and Congrats Farzana Begum on your first book!
#59 Posted by tahmed32 on July 9, 2008 4:02:08 pm
#58 from chowk it would seem the mudslinging is one way - from hindu extremists. and voters vote for hindu religious nuts of BJP in India, while they give muslim religious nuts the boot in elections in pakistan.
so - it seems that rather than using your own intelligence you are merely repeating the propaganda of Indian governments from 1947 on. this way you would actually be following keppler's advice, rather than merely quoting it.
so - it seems that rather than using your own intelligence you are merely repeating the propaganda of Indian governments from 1947 on. this way you would actually be following keppler's advice, rather than merely quoting it.
#58 Posted by Shattered_Sun on July 9, 2008 3:51:43 pm
Wow alot of meaningless mudslinging. So typical for Chowk. I for one thought it was a good article exposing the narrow tribalism of religious identity hardliners (Islamic or Hindu). The last thing India needs is it to turn from secular country to some quasi-religous state that Pakistan has become.
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses."-- Johannes Kepler
#57 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 3:08:21 pm
farzana doesn't have an identity crisis...her identity is muslim first and pakistani second..
#56 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 3:08:00 pm
Re: # 55
come on - she is an out and out jihadi apologist.
come on - she is an out and out jihadi apologist.
#55 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 2:50:59 pm
mohar yaar,
I don't think she supports the taliban...
see...when an investigator goes to an accident site and investigates and explains how that accident occurred, we should not mistake that as a wow, she loved the ones that caused the accident.
Cause and effect...if she explains the cause for the effect, you should not confuse that for a "jihadi apologist".
See?
I don't think she supports the taliban...
see...when an investigator goes to an accident site and investigates and explains how that accident occurred, we should not mistake that as a wow, she loved the ones that caused the accident.
Cause and effect...if she explains the cause for the effect, you should not confuse that for a "jihadi apologist".
See?
#54 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 2:39:24 pm
hoori/gt
irony is that - supportive as farzana may be of taliban and jihadis, she will be the first person they will stone to death, if they get a chance... she being an muslim atheist...
As per tea - as you can see, she is not my type... :)
irony is that - supportive as farzana may be of taliban and jihadis, she will be the first person they will stone to death, if they get a chance... she being an muslim atheist...
As per tea - as you can see, she is not my type... :)
#53 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 2:33:21 pm
#50 Posted by GT on July 9, 2008 2:13:18 pm
I don't drink tea with jihadi apologists...let along 100Rs/cup sea lounge tea..
I don't drink tea with jihadi apologists...let along 100Rs/cup sea lounge tea..
#52 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 2:22:35 pm
Re: # 50 GT,
do not encourage them to ask FV out for chai...that's cheap.
At minimum, it should be an invite for chai and samosa plates...they may have to go to pakistan to get it...
do not encourage them to ask FV out for chai...that's cheap.
At minimum, it should be an invite for chai and samosa plates...they may have to go to pakistan to get it...
#51 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 2:21:36 pm
yaar mohar,
I mix everyone up....cause we are all from the same source...the only difference between us is that which we energetically impose...and it is an artificial difference :)
hope that explains it/.
I mix everyone up....cause we are all from the same source...the only difference between us is that which we energetically impose...and it is an artificial difference :)
hope that explains it/.
#50 Posted by GT on July 9, 2008 2:13:18 pm
Mohar:
"Farzana's identity crisis and confusion leads her to identify with taliban and reach all sorts asinine conclusions - arjun has ...."
I believe that both you and arjun are deeply in love with FV ... but do not have the guts to ask her out for chai.
"Farzana's identity crisis and confusion leads her to identify with taliban and reach all sorts asinine conclusions - arjun has ...."
I believe that both you and arjun are deeply in love with FV ... but do not have the guts to ask her out for chai.
#49 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 1:54:13 pm
hoori
Roy may be an wonderful human being - so am I...:) but that's not the point... her politics makes no sense, her whining is even worse...
Farzana's identity crisis and confusion leads her to identify with taliban and reach all sorts asinine conclusions - arjun has given references on her stupidity... such political views makes no sense... and when her bluff is called, she starts the whining...
You keep missing the basic point here... On top of that - you co-relate roy, versey, chopra together - that makes no sense either... your khopdi is screwed up or what?
Roy may be an wonderful human being - so am I...:) but that's not the point... her politics makes no sense, her whining is even worse...
Farzana's identity crisis and confusion leads her to identify with taliban and reach all sorts asinine conclusions - arjun has given references on her stupidity... such political views makes no sense... and when her bluff is called, she starts the whining...
You keep missing the basic point here... On top of that - you co-relate roy, versey, chopra together - that makes no sense either... your khopdi is screwed up or what?
#48 Posted by PKSZ_shadbad on July 9, 2008 12:56:28 pm
India's ill will ensues from Pakistan's ill will. It were our Muslim bhais who wanted to separate in the first place. Seeing their belligrent attitude, congress ageed for the division - and ML left almost equal number of Muslims in India to face all type of hardships. Save-half-and-leave half logic does not make sense to any sensible mind except to vested interests which wanted to divide India. Today, when Pakistan is digging its owo grave and is a total mess, does anyone imageine that India would like to get herself entangled in that mess? India is happy looking at Pakistan's laughable position and its total moral degeneration - all logical end of the logic on which Pakistan was created.
#47 Posted by tahmed32 on July 9, 2008 12:50:06 pm
GT: greetings. i need to get back to work. these chowk breaks are like coffee breaks..take longer than you planned.
#46 Posted by GT on July 9, 2008 12:43:10 pm
tahmed sahib,
Now, now .... you are being naughty again. Where is the Mrs.?
Now, now .... you are being naughty again. Where is the Mrs.?
#45 Posted by tahmed32 on July 9, 2008 12:37:13 pm
"had there been no arjuns and mohars there would be no FVs and vice versa!""
I didnt know that FV is the daughter of arjun and mohar. and who is this vice versa?
I didnt know that FV is the daughter of arjun and mohar. and who is this vice versa?
#44 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 12:32:02 pm
"By the way .... had there been no arjuns and mohars there would be no FVs and vice versa!"
very true :) and I do appreciate their single mindedness, I do :)
very true :) and I do appreciate their single mindedness, I do :)
#43 Posted by GT on July 9, 2008 12:25:41 pm
ts,
"While some (arjun and mohar) think that these folks are anti indian, they may indeed be the very thing that makes india shine....so you see...the comment of "intellectual giants amongst an ocean of mental midgets""
Got you!! I disagree though about arjun and mohar being mental midgets and Arundhati and FV being intellectual giants. But you and I can live with such disagreements. By the way .... had there been no arjuns and mohars there would be no FVs and vice versa!
"While some (arjun and mohar) think that these folks are anti indian, they may indeed be the very thing that makes india shine....so you see...the comment of "intellectual giants amongst an ocean of mental midgets""
Got you!! I disagree though about arjun and mohar being mental midgets and Arundhati and FV being intellectual giants. But you and I can live with such disagreements. By the way .... had there been no arjuns and mohars there would be no FVs and vice versa!
#42 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 11:45:46 am
GT yaar,
I don't see indians as dumb at all...
I was merely using a jestful method to allow mohars and arjuns of the world to understand the importance of folks like FV, and Roy. I am sincere in my praise of both (Farzana from her articles), and Roy is just a fantastic human being. While some (arjun and mohar) think that these folks are anti indian, they may indeed be the very thing that makes india shine....so you see...the comment of "intellectual giants amongst an ocean of mental midgets" was just aimed at the wonderfully single tracked gentle hindus like mohar and arjun ;)
Guru ji Deepak Chopra is another matter entirely. I was extremely amused to see his book on Golf and spirituality and the third jesus. Guru ji has not left any stone unturned, and I praise him like I should.
I don't see indians as dumb at all...
I was merely using a jestful method to allow mohars and arjuns of the world to understand the importance of folks like FV, and Roy. I am sincere in my praise of both (Farzana from her articles), and Roy is just a fantastic human being. While some (arjun and mohar) think that these folks are anti indian, they may indeed be the very thing that makes india shine....so you see...the comment of "intellectual giants amongst an ocean of mental midgets" was just aimed at the wonderfully single tracked gentle hindus like mohar and arjun ;)
Guru ji Deepak Chopra is another matter entirely. I was extremely amused to see his book on Golf and spirituality and the third jesus. Guru ji has not left any stone unturned, and I praise him like I should.
#41 Posted by GT on July 9, 2008 11:22:48 am
Dear ts,
I find FV and Arundhati Roy very different. Ms. Roy does not seem to know what she does not know while FV knows what she does not know. This honesty I find very refreshing. It also makes her writings bold and honest. It also induces readers like me, who abhor the complicated writing style of desi authors including FV, to spend more time on her writings to try figure out what she is trying to say. Having done so, I believe I have been able to relate to (not understand mind you) some issues in a manner that she perhaps does. For me, at least, this has been a satisfying learning experience.
As far as your seeing most Indians as dumb except for the likes of FV, Arundhati and Deepak Chopra .... I have a feeling that you haven't understood FV at all. She may even take it as an insult. FV identifies more with the dumb Indian spread out between the likes of arjun and me than with your Californian Deepak Chopra.
Cheers.
I find FV and Arundhati Roy very different. Ms. Roy does not seem to know what she does not know while FV knows what she does not know. This honesty I find very refreshing. It also makes her writings bold and honest. It also induces readers like me, who abhor the complicated writing style of desi authors including FV, to spend more time on her writings to try figure out what she is trying to say. Having done so, I believe I have been able to relate to (not understand mind you) some issues in a manner that she perhaps does. For me, at least, this has been a satisfying learning experience.
As far as your seeing most Indians as dumb except for the likes of FV, Arundhati and Deepak Chopra .... I have a feeling that you haven't understood FV at all. She may even take it as an insult. FV identifies more with the dumb Indian spread out between the likes of arjun and me than with your Californian Deepak Chopra.
Cheers.
#40 Posted by stuka on July 9, 2008 11:17:04 am
"I must clarify that in Pakistani mind, Kashmir basically means the valley, not Jammu. What runs in the blood is the valley - Jammu is for strategic reasons added into the fray."
Yes, exactly as I thought, it comes down to the valley. I knew that but wanted to clarify.
"The Kashmiris in Pakistan (and I mean the Punjabi Kashmiris PLUS the Mirpuris in settled Pakistan) are ALL from the valley. I haven't seen anyone from Jammu. I may be wrong and I would stand corrected."
OK, since you know that they are Kashmiris, can you tell me where in the valley they are from? What are their Kashmiri clan names? None of them speak Kashmiri, so I would assume there is something more than just a spoken attachment to some pretty hills.
Yes, exactly as I thought, it comes down to the valley. I knew that but wanted to clarify.
"The Kashmiris in Pakistan (and I mean the Punjabi Kashmiris PLUS the Mirpuris in settled Pakistan) are ALL from the valley. I haven't seen anyone from Jammu. I may be wrong and I would stand corrected."
OK, since you know that they are Kashmiris, can you tell me where in the valley they are from? What are their Kashmiri clan names? None of them speak Kashmiri, so I would assume there is something more than just a spoken attachment to some pretty hills.
#39 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 11:14:59 am
#35 Posted by Eklavya,
Actually, if you ask me, Pakistani Punjab and Occupied Kashmir are ONE and the SAME! I remember an elder cousin of mine when I was very young who used to call Sheikh Abdullah "Kashmir ka kutta" when he was called "Sher-e-Kashmir"!
Actually, if you ask me, Pakistani Punjab and Occupied Kashmir are ONE and the SAME! I remember an elder cousin of mine when I was very young who used to call Sheikh Abdullah "Kashmir ka kutta" when he was called "Sher-e-Kashmir"!
#38 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 10:51:40 am
#34 Posted by stuka
What I find funny is that for Punjab, which is linguistically much more homogenous, you are denying a Punjabi identity. But for Kashmir, which actually is very very heterogenous in both ethnic and linguistic sense, you are applying an ioverarching Kashmiri identity.
I must clarify that in Pakistani mind, Kashmir basically means the valley, not Jammu. What runs in the blood is the valley - Jammu is for strategic reasons added into the fray.
The Kashmiris in Pakistan (and I mean the Punjabi Kashmiris PLUS the Mirpuris in settled Pakistan) are ALL from the valley. I haven't seen anyone from Jammu. I may be wrong and I would stand corrected.
Hope that clarifies a bit and we may agree at some threshold.
What I find funny is that for Punjab, which is linguistically much more homogenous, you are denying a Punjabi identity. But for Kashmir, which actually is very very heterogenous in both ethnic and linguistic sense, you are applying an ioverarching Kashmiri identity.
I must clarify that in Pakistani mind, Kashmir basically means the valley, not Jammu. What runs in the blood is the valley - Jammu is for strategic reasons added into the fray.
The Kashmiris in Pakistan (and I mean the Punjabi Kashmiris PLUS the Mirpuris in settled Pakistan) are ALL from the valley. I haven't seen anyone from Jammu. I may be wrong and I would stand corrected.
Hope that clarifies a bit and we may agree at some threshold.
#37 Posted by Eklavya on July 9, 2008 10:49:35 am
ts bhai
There are two intertwined, equally important aspects of ANY political religion - the less important - content, and the far more important - identity.
Identity is where it is at. Both of us know that. Only Hindus don't. :)
There are two intertwined, equally important aspects of ANY political religion - the less important - content, and the far more important - identity.
Identity is where it is at. Both of us know that. Only Hindus don't. :)
#36 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 10:37:24 am
of course "identity" is Kaal bhai's favorite tool ;)
#35 Posted by Eklavya on July 9, 2008 10:15:47 am
stukes, zee
Is the difference that stuka sees identity in specific 'cultural' terms - language, food etc etc, while Kashmiris in Pakistan see that as a way of self-definition?
I doubt many Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab, even if they see themselves as Kashmiris, obsess over Kashmir language, traditions, etc. But that doesn't mean they do not acknowledge themselves as Kashmiris in Pakistan or Punjab.
Of course, this is just a guess.
Is the difference that stuka sees identity in specific 'cultural' terms - language, food etc etc, while Kashmiris in Pakistan see that as a way of self-definition?
I doubt many Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab, even if they see themselves as Kashmiris, obsess over Kashmir language, traditions, etc. But that doesn't mean they do not acknowledge themselves as Kashmiris in Pakistan or Punjab.
Of course, this is just a guess.
#34 Posted by stuka on July 9, 2008 9:58:12 am
"You know very well (having visted Pakistan) Kashmir runs in Pakistani's blood. It is not merely real estate. "
I can tell you, read my article on Pakistan if you wish, Kashmir runs in the blood of a subset of Pakistanis (real estate or otherwise), not the whole.
"AND whom you call East Punjabis, all have more of a Kashmiri identity than a Punjabi one, which in fact is NO identity at all. There is NO identity named 'Punjabi'. Are you surprised? The Punjabi identity is actually Jaat, Rajput, Gakhhar, Awan, Araeen, and so forth ..... "
There is very much a Punjabi identity...broken further into Majha, Malwa and Doaba..specifically in East Punjab. It is further broken down by Jatt (not Jaat - Jaat implies non Punjabi language) Rajput, Kshatriya etc. Some of the castes you mentioned like Araeen etc are exclusively Muslim and Punjabi (linguistically), not existing outside Punjab.
Now, let us discuss "Kashmiri identity". Do you mean Mirpur, Jammu, Ladakh, Baltistan, Gilgit or the Kashmir valley? All are pasrt of larger Kashmir. But the language of the Valley is completly different from the language of Jammu, Baltistan, Mirpur etc. So, tell me, which part of Kashmir are these Amritsaris related to? Nawaz Sharif does not even have a Kashmiri clan name. It is like Romair claiming to be Kashmiri though he is a Punjabi speaker from areas bordering Mirpur or something.
What I find funny is that for Punjab, which is linguistically much more homogenous, you are denying a Punjabi identity. But for Kashmir, which actually is very very heterogenous in both ethnic and linguistic sense, you are applying an ioverarching Kashmiri identity.
BTW, I am all for giving the valley and its people to Kashmir in exchange for ethnic cleansing of Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh. So, no differences with you there.
#33 Posted by Shah2 on July 9, 2008 9:56:41 am
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#32 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 9:42:05 am
#29 Posted by stuka,
Yaar you can do better than this post. Hey bring your adrenaline under control over just the mention of Kashmir.
You know very well (having visted Pakistan) Kashmir runs in Pakistani's blood. It is not merely real estate.
AND whom you call East Punjabis, all have more of a Kashmiri identity than a Punjabi one, which in fact is NO identity at all. There is NO identity named 'Punjabi'. Are you surprised?
The Punjabi identity is actually Jaat, Rajput, Gakhhar, Awan, Araeen, and so forth .....
Yaar you can do better than this post. Hey bring your adrenaline under control over just the mention of Kashmir.
You know very well (having visted Pakistan) Kashmir runs in Pakistani's blood. It is not merely real estate.
AND whom you call East Punjabis, all have more of a Kashmiri identity than a Punjabi one, which in fact is NO identity at all. There is NO identity named 'Punjabi'. Are you surprised?
The Punjabi identity is actually Jaat, Rajput, Gakhhar, Awan, Araeen, and so forth .....
#31 Posted by stuka on July 9, 2008 9:36:17 am
"Samajwadi MP says 7 will vote against UPA
A Ganesh Nadar | July 09, 2008 19:38 IST
Munawwar Hasan, the Samajwadi Party member of Parliament from Muzaffarnagar in Uttar Pradesh is among those from his party who refuse to toe the party line on backing the United Progressive Alliance government on the Indo-US nuclear deal.
Hasan is clear that he will vote against the government, and refuses to change his view even at the cost of losing his party membership.
"
This is why I think we need to do something about the Muslim issue in democratic politics. We should follow the Pakistani example of having nominated Minority (read seperate) electorates. So Muslims are not in a position to subvert India's strategic interests for "Ummah oriented" gains.
A Ganesh Nadar | July 09, 2008 19:38 IST
Munawwar Hasan, the Samajwadi Party member of Parliament from Muzaffarnagar in Uttar Pradesh is among those from his party who refuse to toe the party line on backing the United Progressive Alliance government on the Indo-US nuclear deal.
Hasan is clear that he will vote against the government, and refuses to change his view even at the cost of losing his party membership.
"
This is why I think we need to do something about the Muslim issue in democratic politics. We should follow the Pakistani example of having nominated Minority (read seperate) electorates. So Muslims are not in a position to subvert India's strategic interests for "Ummah oriented" gains.
#30 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 9:35:31 am
Author,
Thanks for the review. I would love to write a review of my own (I haven't yet finished the book) but guess Chowk is not the best forum for that. Too many small-minded people here now.
Farzana Versey was the Chief Editor of this then small site, and had turned it into a respectable web-zine through her efforts. Wouldn't want to have people drag her good name in the mud.
Perhaps elsewhere, because it is an important book.
Thanks for the review. I would love to write a review of my own (I haven't yet finished the book) but guess Chowk is not the best forum for that. Too many small-minded people here now.
Farzana Versey was the Chief Editor of this then small site, and had turned it into a respectable web-zine through her efforts. Wouldn't want to have people drag her good name in the mud.
Perhaps elsewhere, because it is an important book.
#29 Posted by stuka on July 9, 2008 9:33:44 am
"The Kashmiri origin people constitute a VERY large, wealthy, and influential/respectable community in Punjab. These are the Kashmiris like the Nawaz Sharif clan and most of his shadow cabinet who came over from Amritsar at partition,"
Yes, they are all East Punjabis. They are as much Kashmiri as I am German.
" Even Sheikh Rashid is from Srinagar."
Yes, maybe his mother's doodhwala was a Kashmiri..from Mirpur.
The Kashmiri tradition /culture / food is part and parcel of the Pakistan Punjab's culture. Fully integrated."
Zeemax, it is obvious you do not have a clue about Kashmir or its culture especially the Valley. There is NOTHING in Pakistani Punjab which even vaguely is similar to Kashmiri culture. Not the language, not the food, nothing. Jammu maybe..and Jammu's Dogri is more similar to the Mirpur language but not Kashmiri at all.
Yes, they are all East Punjabis. They are as much Kashmiri as I am German.
" Even Sheikh Rashid is from Srinagar."
Yes, maybe his mother's doodhwala was a Kashmiri..from Mirpur.
The Kashmiri tradition /culture / food is part and parcel of the Pakistan Punjab's culture. Fully integrated."
Zeemax, it is obvious you do not have a clue about Kashmir or its culture especially the Valley. There is NOTHING in Pakistani Punjab which even vaguely is similar to Kashmiri culture. Not the language, not the food, nothing. Jammu maybe..and Jammu's Dogri is more similar to the Mirpur language but not Kashmiri at all.
#28 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 9:20:58 am
Re: # 25
[...tricky road from ignorance to intellect to spiritual realization ...]
And as you can see - farzana is far behind in her journey... while most others have moved on quietly and effortlessly...
her journey is definitely interrupted and delayed, only because of her intellectuall insufficiency... her inability to negotiate and reconciliate these so called "tricky" issues... actually, it isn't that tricky at all...
So - as you can see, the lady is no intellectual "giant"... even though her painstaking "effort" on the "journey" is admirable - it's no big deal, not worth a book at the expense of precious trees that it costs... :)
Anyhoo - her "delayed journey" is least of anybody's problem - unless she is using her confusion and ignorance to play the same old identity politics - which is what she has done all this while in chowk...
That has been my objection to begin with... take your time to mature intellectually, but spare us the whining... we have seen it, been there, done that... we have completed the "journey" long back, and there was nothing tricky about it...
Makes sense?
[...tricky road from ignorance to intellect to spiritual realization ...]
And as you can see - farzana is far behind in her journey... while most others have moved on quietly and effortlessly...
her journey is definitely interrupted and delayed, only because of her intellectuall insufficiency... her inability to negotiate and reconciliate these so called "tricky" issues... actually, it isn't that tricky at all...
So - as you can see, the lady is no intellectual "giant"... even though her painstaking "effort" on the "journey" is admirable - it's no big deal, not worth a book at the expense of precious trees that it costs... :)
Anyhoo - her "delayed journey" is least of anybody's problem - unless she is using her confusion and ignorance to play the same old identity politics - which is what she has done all this while in chowk...
That has been my objection to begin with... take your time to mature intellectually, but spare us the whining... we have seen it, been there, done that... we have completed the "journey" long back, and there was nothing tricky about it...
Makes sense?
#27 Posted by TrichMir on July 9, 2008 9:12:44 am
What are Muslims doing in a Hindu country?
What are non-Muslims doing in a Muslim country?
Muslims are Indians-just like Hindus, Christians, Budhists and others. No?
Are non-Muslims lesser Pakistanis?
What are non-Muslims doing in a Muslim country?
Muslims are Indians-just like Hindus, Christians, Budhists and others. No?
Are non-Muslims lesser Pakistanis?
#26 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 8:56:37 am
hurricane,
Farzana is right. Most Pakistanis don't understand what the hell Muslims are doing in a Hindu country? And do feel awkward with them because they are Muslims (read Ummah) just like themselves BUT enemy Indians at the same time!
That's a big anomaly in their eyes, and they don't know how to deal with them or what to say. That's the baggage Farzana talks about when she says she 'travels heavy'.
Farzana is right. Most Pakistanis don't understand what the hell Muslims are doing in a Hindu country? And do feel awkward with them because they are Muslims (read Ummah) just like themselves BUT enemy Indians at the same time!
That's a big anomaly in their eyes, and they don't know how to deal with them or what to say. That's the baggage Farzana talks about when she says she 'travels heavy'.
#25 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 8:54:20 am
Re: # 24 mohar,
identity does not equal caste. It also does not equal religion. they may be part of the identity that's chosen or thrust upon...
even in countries where conflict ended a while back, identity is very important to humans. It is not a trivial issue.
Of course, my take on this is that at the ignorant level, identity does not matter, and there is hatred and dislike for the "other" . At the intellectual level, identity is the key to existence, and therefor one strives to understand the (multiple dimensional) identity of self. At the spiritual level, the annihilation of the ego shows that there is no self and makes one realize that we are all one, and there is love for all.
One must traverse the tricky road from ignorance to intellect to spiritual realization ;)
So identity is important to those that are growing from the intellectual plane to the spiritual plane... for the ignorant, nothing matters, they're merely beautiful automatons, doing what they must.
identity does not equal caste. It also does not equal religion. they may be part of the identity that's chosen or thrust upon...
even in countries where conflict ended a while back, identity is very important to humans. It is not a trivial issue.
Of course, my take on this is that at the ignorant level, identity does not matter, and there is hatred and dislike for the "other" . At the intellectual level, identity is the key to existence, and therefor one strives to understand the (multiple dimensional) identity of self. At the spiritual level, the annihilation of the ego shows that there is no self and makes one realize that we are all one, and there is love for all.
One must traverse the tricky road from ignorance to intellect to spiritual realization ;)
So identity is important to those that are growing from the intellectual plane to the spiritual plane... for the ignorant, nothing matters, they're merely beautiful automatons, doing what they must.
#24 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 8:47:02 am
Re: # 23 hoori
[.. this is important stuff ...]
No, it isn't... there is no reason for an indian at this time to be so obsessed about identity... it is an "existential issue" only if there is some kind of imminent threat to your identity, otherwise your identity should be just a background picture - sort of a wallpaper on your computer screen...
Of all people, pakis and hanoods should know what damage such obsession with identity has done to our peoples over last 60 years, starting with partition... if anything, we should move away from such excercise...
I am surprised that you are not being able to grasp this simple point... :(
[.. this is important stuff ...]
No, it isn't... there is no reason for an indian at this time to be so obsessed about identity... it is an "existential issue" only if there is some kind of imminent threat to your identity, otherwise your identity should be just a background picture - sort of a wallpaper on your computer screen...
Of all people, pakis and hanoods should know what damage such obsession with identity has done to our peoples over last 60 years, starting with partition... if anything, we should move away from such excercise...
I am surprised that you are not being able to grasp this simple point... :(
#23 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 8:32:38 am
Mohar,
Sorry if I hurt your feelings...it's just that all the garbage you post on chowk makes me feel that you are deficient intellectually....but it could just be a "stupid" mask you put on for chowk...
Farzana has a really valid point about identity. Indeed, identity is the single most important existential issue for humans, once they have covered the survival angle. She is surprised to find that hindu indians are treated as "indians" while she is a bit of an anomaly. This simple experience/observation really drills into the entire personal/religious politics and identities of the sub continent.
pay attention, this is important stuff :)
Sorry if I hurt your feelings...it's just that all the garbage you post on chowk makes me feel that you are deficient intellectually....but it could just be a "stupid" mask you put on for chowk...
Farzana has a really valid point about identity. Indeed, identity is the single most important existential issue for humans, once they have covered the survival angle. She is surprised to find that hindu indians are treated as "indians" while she is a bit of an anomaly. This simple experience/observation really drills into the entire personal/religious politics and identities of the sub continent.
pay attention, this is important stuff :)
#22 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 8:27:16 am
Re: # 20 hoori
I know you are all for love and harmony... me too, I mean, who isn't?...
Speaking of intellectual giants: If you are a weed, intellecutally speaking - even a scrawny bush will look like giant to you... that means nothing... :)
People like farzana are habitual whiners, for them it's all a big conspiracy... "boo hoo, pakis stero-typed me, I was impure in pakiland"...who cares? ... Anycase - you didn't have to all the way to pakiland to find that out...
I know you are all for love and harmony... me too, I mean, who isn't?...
Speaking of intellectual giants: If you are a weed, intellecutally speaking - even a scrawny bush will look like giant to you... that means nothing... :)
People like farzana are habitual whiners, for them it's all a big conspiracy... "boo hoo, pakis stero-typed me, I was impure in pakiland"...who cares? ... Anycase - you didn't have to all the way to pakiland to find that out...
#21 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2008 8:16:44 am
I congratulate Farzana on a wonderful and sensitive book, and a successful Launch. Many returns I hope.
Just one comment:
‘the Pakistani interest in India is centred on Kashmir. Not the Kashmiri people, mind you, but Kashmir as real estate, as a brownie point.
The Kashmiri origin people constitute a VERY large, wealthy, and influential/respectable community in Punjab. These are the Kashmiris like the Nawaz Sharif clan and most of his shadow cabinet who came over from Amritsar at partition, as well as the Khwajas and Dars in Sialkot and Gujranwala who are captains of Industry and were there before that. Even Sheikh Rashid is from Srinagar. The Kashmiri tradition /culture / food is part and parcel of the Pakistan Punjab's culture. Fully integrated.
Perhaps Farzana wasn't aware of this otherwise she wouldn't have said it was just about real estate.
Just one comment:
‘the Pakistani interest in India is centred on Kashmir. Not the Kashmiri people, mind you, but Kashmir as real estate, as a brownie point.
The Kashmiri origin people constitute a VERY large, wealthy, and influential/respectable community in Punjab. These are the Kashmiris like the Nawaz Sharif clan and most of his shadow cabinet who came over from Amritsar at partition, as well as the Khwajas and Dars in Sialkot and Gujranwala who are captains of Industry and were there before that. Even Sheikh Rashid is from Srinagar. The Kashmiri tradition /culture / food is part and parcel of the Pakistan Punjab's culture. Fully integrated.
Perhaps Farzana wasn't aware of this otherwise she wouldn't have said it was just about real estate.
#20 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 8:15:01 am
Re: # 19 mohar,
yaar, I'm not the one always harping on about how "evil" the "other" is. About violence etc? I am talking about peace, against injustice, and for love. I guess that makes me an "ulta khopri"? :)
You should be proud to have great thinkers and intellectual giants like Farzana and Arundhati amongst your ocean of mental midgets :)
yaar, I'm not the one always harping on about how "evil" the "other" is. About violence etc? I am talking about peace, against injustice, and for love. I guess that makes me an "ulta khopri"? :)
You should be proud to have great thinkers and intellectual giants like Farzana and Arundhati amongst your ocean of mental midgets :)
#19 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 8:10:25 am
Re: # 17 hoori
well, you can take arundhati and farazana over to pakiland and make them pakis - we don't object at all... we will risk being known as just plain old smelly indians...
in fact, since that's what we are, we would rather be true to ourselves and be known as that - there is no point to bask in reflected glow of "thinking ambassadors" who we don't approve of anyway... right?
You have what call in hindi as "ulta khopdi"... :)...
well, you can take arundhati and farazana over to pakiland and make them pakis - we don't object at all... we will risk being known as just plain old smelly indians...
in fact, since that's what we are, we would rather be true to ourselves and be known as that - there is no point to bask in reflected glow of "thinking ambassadors" who we don't approve of anyway... right?
You have what call in hindi as "ulta khopdi"... :)...
#18 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 8:04:26 am
Re: # 9 DM
what's the need to be so "protective" about one's identity?... Was any paki trying to steal her indian identity?... is anybody trying to destroy her "non-practising-Ismaili-Indian-Muslim identity" in india?...
Of course not... so what's the purpose of this whole excercise, really?
what's the need to be so "protective" about one's identity?... Was any paki trying to steal her indian identity?... is anybody trying to destroy her "non-practising-Ismaili-Indian-Muslim identity" in india?...
Of course not... so what's the purpose of this whole excercise, really?
#17 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 8:01:58 am
People like farzana and arundhati put forth the thinking, loving, compassionate face of india forward.
Without them, and guru deepak chopra ji, the people of the world would keep on deriding indians as smelly papdums :(
Indians should really honor these ambassadors, if not for them, to the west, india is just a smelly call center.
I've had the pleasure of meeting Arundhati, and having read her novels and her non fiction books. While I'm thrilled, as a fellow human being, to meet this brave, smart, and wonderful thinker and activist, a part of me is envious that she is Indian, and not Pakistani.
Anyway,must find Farzana's book as well...
Without them, and guru deepak chopra ji, the people of the world would keep on deriding indians as smelly papdums :(
Indians should really honor these ambassadors, if not for them, to the west, india is just a smelly call center.
I've had the pleasure of meeting Arundhati, and having read her novels and her non fiction books. While I'm thrilled, as a fellow human being, to meet this brave, smart, and wonderful thinker and activist, a part of me is envious that she is Indian, and not Pakistani.
Anyway,must find Farzana's book as well...
#16 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2008 7:57:57 am
This "identity" business so passe, so archaic... people have played this game for a long time - result has been a lot of pain with no gains whatsover...
I don't know why farzana is so obsessed with "identity", I don't understand the compulsion to constantly disect and analyze components of one's identity and be utterly sensitive of people's reaction to it... This whole narrative is nothing but same old whining - same old complaints about how people fail to give her the response she expects commensurate with her own perception of her identity... such whining used to be against indians - now she has gone ahead and written a whole book on pakis not giving her the due...
Who cares, really?... This is always what I have advised farzana - she should use her talents and opportunities to do some real work for the community, rather than wasting time and energy on wild-goose chase of identity across the lands - foreign and domestic...
I don't know why farzana is so obsessed with "identity", I don't understand the compulsion to constantly disect and analyze components of one's identity and be utterly sensitive of people's reaction to it... This whole narrative is nothing but same old whining - same old complaints about how people fail to give her the response she expects commensurate with her own perception of her identity... such whining used to be against indians - now she has gone ahead and written a whole book on pakis not giving her the due...
Who cares, really?... This is always what I have advised farzana - she should use her talents and opportunities to do some real work for the community, rather than wasting time and energy on wild-goose chase of identity across the lands - foreign and domestic...
#15 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 7:54:50 am
here's another one of farzana's type...putting the interests of the ummah above the interests of his own country(and may I add, the interests of indian muslims who can only benefit from a deal that benefits india)..
just like the commie scum who are more loyal to their masters in beijing...
worshipers of mo and worshipers of mao..peas in a pod..
Samajwadi MP says 7 will vote against UPA
A Ganesh Nadar | July 09, 2008 19:38 IST
Munawwar Hasan, the Samajwadi Party member of Parliament from Muzaffarnagar in Uttar Pradesh is among those from his party who refuse to toe the party line on backing the United Progressive Alliance government on the Indo-US nuclear deal.
Hasan is clear that he will vote against the government, and refuses to change his view even at the cost of losing his party membership.
He has chosen to oppose the party line and vote against the Government, and says he is not going to change his view even at the cost of loosing his party membership.
He told rediff.com, "I am opposing the nuclear deal with the Americans. America is against the interests of Muslims. Muslims hate Americans. If this deal goes through, then Americans will make a lot of money.
"They will use the money to make bombs and then bomb Muslims with it. We are not going to let that happen. We are against the Americans. We are not interested in the power part of the deal, we are opposing the fact that it's a deal with the United States."
just like the commie scum who are more loyal to their masters in beijing...
worshipers of mo and worshipers of mao..peas in a pod..
Samajwadi MP says 7 will vote against UPA
A Ganesh Nadar | July 09, 2008 19:38 IST
Munawwar Hasan, the Samajwadi Party member of Parliament from Muzaffarnagar in Uttar Pradesh is among those from his party who refuse to toe the party line on backing the United Progressive Alliance government on the Indo-US nuclear deal.
Hasan is clear that he will vote against the government, and refuses to change his view even at the cost of losing his party membership.
He has chosen to oppose the party line and vote against the Government, and says he is not going to change his view even at the cost of loosing his party membership.
He told rediff.com, "I am opposing the nuclear deal with the Americans. America is against the interests of Muslims. Muslims hate Americans. If this deal goes through, then Americans will make a lot of money.
"They will use the money to make bombs and then bomb Muslims with it. We are not going to let that happen. We are against the Americans. We are not interested in the power part of the deal, we are opposing the fact that it's a deal with the United States."
#14 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 7:44:16 am
#9 Posted by dost_mittar on July 9, 2008 6:45:57 am
She is as protective of her Muslim identity in India
She's puts her islamic identity over her indian identity(to the extent she has an indian identity)...it's clear where her sympathies lie..even in a situation where Pakistan, a foreign power(to most indians, not farzana) is sending jihadis to kill her "fellow indian citizens", her sympathies lie with the jihadis...because the jihadis are muslims...
Pakistan was created for people whose heart beats for islam over everything else...which is why she should just drop all pretenses and move there already..
She is as protective of her Muslim identity in India
She's puts her islamic identity over her indian identity(to the extent she has an indian identity)...it's clear where her sympathies lie..even in a situation where Pakistan, a foreign power(to most indians, not farzana) is sending jihadis to kill her "fellow indian citizens", her sympathies lie with the jihadis...because the jihadis are muslims...
Pakistan was created for people whose heart beats for islam over everything else...which is why she should just drop all pretenses and move there already..
#13 Posted by hurricane on July 9, 2008 7:41:38 am
Farzana is an asset to India.
Now I'll have to go read her book, it seems really interesting.
Now I'll have to go read her book, it seems really interesting.
#12 Posted by truth100 on July 9, 2008 7:39:17 am
Deception and double standard is islamic psyche.
For your FYI, Pakistanis, Taliban is Pak Army. You people want talibanization.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article42954 22.ece
The role of the ISI in supporting the Taliban insurgency is a highly sensitive issue, which Western officials decline to discuss openly. The British and US governments have both avoided directly accusing Pakistan of aiding insurgent groups. Britain in particular is reliant on the ISI for information connected to domestic terror plots planned in Pakistan.
However, privately there is acknowledgement that a level of complicity is a reality.
“There is an acceptance that elements of the ISI are engaged with the insurgents,? said one source serving in the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) for Afghanistan yesterday. “The issue that remains unresolved is the degree of higher level acceptance of this, and how much they (the ISI) can actually be controlled.?
British officers confirmed to The Times an incident last summer in which a Taliban corpse found on the battlefield in Helmand turned out to be carrying papers identifying the body as that of a serving ISI colonel.
When British officials challenged the Islamabad government on the issue, they received an explanation that the man was ’on leave’ at the time of his death.
A US Department of Defence funded study undertaken by the RAND Corporation and published last month also stated that elements of the ISI were aiding the Taleban.
“Right now, the Taleban and other groups are getting help from individuals within Pakistan’s government, and until that ends, the region’s long-term security is in jeopardy,? concluded the report’s author Seth Jones.
He said support included medical care for wounded fighters, logistical and financial support. He also said ISI trainers were instructing insurgents in camps at Quetta, Mansehra, Shamshattu and Parachinar and other areas of Pakistan.
...
Dr Barnett Rubin, an Afghan expert in New York, told The Times: “People tend to depict Afghanistan as a fight between the United States and Islamic radicals, but it is also a theatre for other conflicts and one of those is between India and Pakistan.?
For your FYI, Pakistanis, Taliban is Pak Army. You people want talibanization.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article42954 22.ece
The role of the ISI in supporting the Taliban insurgency is a highly sensitive issue, which Western officials decline to discuss openly. The British and US governments have both avoided directly accusing Pakistan of aiding insurgent groups. Britain in particular is reliant on the ISI for information connected to domestic terror plots planned in Pakistan.
However, privately there is acknowledgement that a level of complicity is a reality.
“There is an acceptance that elements of the ISI are engaged with the insurgents,? said one source serving in the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) for Afghanistan yesterday. “The issue that remains unresolved is the degree of higher level acceptance of this, and how much they (the ISI) can actually be controlled.?
British officers confirmed to The Times an incident last summer in which a Taliban corpse found on the battlefield in Helmand turned out to be carrying papers identifying the body as that of a serving ISI colonel.
When British officials challenged the Islamabad government on the issue, they received an explanation that the man was ’on leave’ at the time of his death.
A US Department of Defence funded study undertaken by the RAND Corporation and published last month also stated that elements of the ISI were aiding the Taleban.
“Right now, the Taleban and other groups are getting help from individuals within Pakistan’s government, and until that ends, the region’s long-term security is in jeopardy,? concluded the report’s author Seth Jones.
He said support included medical care for wounded fighters, logistical and financial support. He also said ISI trainers were instructing insurgents in camps at Quetta, Mansehra, Shamshattu and Parachinar and other areas of Pakistan.
...
Dr Barnett Rubin, an Afghan expert in New York, told The Times: “People tend to depict Afghanistan as a fight between the United States and Islamic radicals, but it is also a theatre for other conflicts and one of those is between India and Pakistan.?
#11 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 7:37:34 am
#8 Posted by nb on July 9, 2008 6:18:26 am
right..she only "feels the pain" of muslims...and that too only when they are in conflict with a non-muslim other...how many times has she mentioned the fact that not a single person from her beloved pakiland has been prosecuted for the killing of hundreds of thousands of bangladeshis?
so..like I said..she's an NRI..a not really indian...living in india...if it wasn't for her love of jeans and other personal freedom, she's be a ninja chick..would fit right in with them..
farzana should just drop all pretenses and join her heart..in pakiland..
right..she only "feels the pain" of muslims...and that too only when they are in conflict with a non-muslim other...how many times has she mentioned the fact that not a single person from her beloved pakiland has been prosecuted for the killing of hundreds of thousands of bangladeshis?
so..like I said..she's an NRI..a not really indian...living in india...if it wasn't for her love of jeans and other personal freedom, she's be a ninja chick..would fit right in with them..
farzana should just drop all pretenses and join her heart..in pakiland..
#10 Posted by truth100 on July 9, 2008 7:04:17 am
Indian identity need not be defined by Dawood Bhais who finance hitek mujras white washing what happened. Recently met a 82 year old Punjabi from Lahore who witnessed the massacre of his folks in 47. He just did not want to talk about it because it makes him relive the horror of rape and murder of dear ones. That is the story for 1K years. We put the atrocities done on Indians in the name of religion of peace.
How many of us know when the war of independence of 1857 ended? Around that time Farzana's grand dadies such as Tayaabjis were saying Gujarathi is not their mother tongue but the Urdu is. Such parasites and divisive cancerous tumors need to be ...
We all know the War of 1857 started with Mangal Pandey near Delhi.
But did you know the War of 1857 ended with Jung Bahadur in Bhalki in Bidar district?
Here is story.
Bidar has its own place in the country’s first war of independence. Unfortunately, the common man knows very little about it.
The war of 1857, also knows as the Sepoy Mutiny, was kicked off by a soldier, Mangal Pandey, disobeying orders of his British senior officer and shooting him dead. Historians believe the war came to end, with the arrest of a follower of Tatya Tope in Bhalki in Bidar district in 1867.
Madho Rao alias Rama Rao was the nephew of Shirmant Shahu Chatrapati, the Maharaja of Satara. He was also known as Jung Bahadur, because of his prowess in battle.
British military officer and historian Sir Richard Temple has referred to Jung Bahadur in his dairy. Details about Jung Bahadur’s life and achievements are also found in the book “The Freedom Struggle in Hyderabad?, published by the expert committee appointed by the Andhra government for compilation of a history of the freedom movement in the erstwhile Nizam state of Hyderabad, in 1956.
According to the book, Jung Bahadur had caused enough damage to the British government before being arrested. He had raised an army of over 1500 people in and around the forests of Bhalki. His forces had captured a cantonment area called Ashti in Bidar district. The Nizam of Hyderabad, who was an agent of the British, arrested him and tried him for “trying to bring about insurrection against the empire?.
Jung Bahadur went about recruiting soldiers in the villages and issuing them “Kaulnamas? or appointment letters. In the letter, he asked young men to join him in the task of “murdering the British and regaining the lost glory of the Royal family of Satara?.
Jung Bahadur and his followers moved on foot from village to village, disguised as mendicants. They were arrested by two officers of the British resident. Their trial however, was conducted by the Nizam’s courts. Magistrate of the criminal court Moulvi Nasrullah Khan completed the trial in less than a month.
Jung Bahadur, Bheem Rao, Balakishtayya and Vithoba were sentenced to transportation to life. Jung Bahadur is said to have spent his last days in the Hyderabad prison, where he died.
His followers Yeshwanta and Jehangir Ali were sentenced to 14 years of imprisonment. Others like Eshwanna Naikwadi and Vir Peddappa were given minor punishments.
Historians feel the country has forgotten its proud son, Jung Bahadur.
“Bidar has a pride of place in India’s freedom struggle. Eminent historians have commented that “It would thus be not incorrect to say that the Bhalki conspiracy case was the last echo of the outbreak of 1857?. The book “The freedom struggle in Hyderabad,? says that the conspiracy, is a milestone in the country’s war to liberation, says retired professor B R Konda.
“Actually, Jung Bahadur should have been as famous as Mangal Pandey. But his name does not figure in history textbooks. This is because writers of history books are and textbook selection committees tend to concentrate on events within the geographical boundaries of Karnataka. They do not seem to think about areas that were part of it before state reorganization?, says M Ahmed, who retired as a history professor.
Some interesting facts:
Jung Bahadur spent just Rs 20,000 for raising an army and carrying out the rebellion.
A Jamadar got a monthly salary of Rs 40, a Sepoy Rs 30 and a Sawar Rs 10.
Jung Bahadur gave Rs 200 to his follower Deva Rao, to recruit 500 “soldiers?.
One of the most serious charges the Nizam’s government made against him was that he was claiming to be the Prince of Satara.
When searched the officials discovered that Jung Bahadur carried, 1) several papers in English and Marathi, translation of a deed of agreement and a seal saying he was the “Chatrapati of Satara?. This, according to the Nizam’s officials, amounted to a serious offence.
Jung Bahadur’s Kaulnama, or appointment letter, said “Persons coming from Royal families will also be enrolled in his army.? They would, however, get the same salary as the others.
How many of us know when the war of independence of 1857 ended? Around that time Farzana's grand dadies such as Tayaabjis were saying Gujarathi is not their mother tongue but the Urdu is. Such parasites and divisive cancerous tumors need to be ...
We all know the War of 1857 started with Mangal Pandey near Delhi.
But did you know the War of 1857 ended with Jung Bahadur in Bhalki in Bidar district?
Here is story.
Bidar has its own place in the country’s first war of independence. Unfortunately, the common man knows very little about it.
The war of 1857, also knows as the Sepoy Mutiny, was kicked off by a soldier, Mangal Pandey, disobeying orders of his British senior officer and shooting him dead. Historians believe the war came to end, with the arrest of a follower of Tatya Tope in Bhalki in Bidar district in 1867.
Madho Rao alias Rama Rao was the nephew of Shirmant Shahu Chatrapati, the Maharaja of Satara. He was also known as Jung Bahadur, because of his prowess in battle.
British military officer and historian Sir Richard Temple has referred to Jung Bahadur in his dairy. Details about Jung Bahadur’s life and achievements are also found in the book “The Freedom Struggle in Hyderabad?, published by the expert committee appointed by the Andhra government for compilation of a history of the freedom movement in the erstwhile Nizam state of Hyderabad, in 1956.
According to the book, Jung Bahadur had caused enough damage to the British government before being arrested. He had raised an army of over 1500 people in and around the forests of Bhalki. His forces had captured a cantonment area called Ashti in Bidar district. The Nizam of Hyderabad, who was an agent of the British, arrested him and tried him for “trying to bring about insurrection against the empire?.
Jung Bahadur went about recruiting soldiers in the villages and issuing them “Kaulnamas? or appointment letters. In the letter, he asked young men to join him in the task of “murdering the British and regaining the lost glory of the Royal family of Satara?.
Jung Bahadur and his followers moved on foot from village to village, disguised as mendicants. They were arrested by two officers of the British resident. Their trial however, was conducted by the Nizam’s courts. Magistrate of the criminal court Moulvi Nasrullah Khan completed the trial in less than a month.
Jung Bahadur, Bheem Rao, Balakishtayya and Vithoba were sentenced to transportation to life. Jung Bahadur is said to have spent his last days in the Hyderabad prison, where he died.
His followers Yeshwanta and Jehangir Ali were sentenced to 14 years of imprisonment. Others like Eshwanna Naikwadi and Vir Peddappa were given minor punishments.
Historians feel the country has forgotten its proud son, Jung Bahadur.
“Bidar has a pride of place in India’s freedom struggle. Eminent historians have commented that “It would thus be not incorrect to say that the Bhalki conspiracy case was the last echo of the outbreak of 1857?. The book “The freedom struggle in Hyderabad,? says that the conspiracy, is a milestone in the country’s war to liberation, says retired professor B R Konda.
“Actually, Jung Bahadur should have been as famous as Mangal Pandey. But his name does not figure in history textbooks. This is because writers of history books are and textbook selection committees tend to concentrate on events within the geographical boundaries of Karnataka. They do not seem to think about areas that were part of it before state reorganization?, says M Ahmed, who retired as a history professor.
Some interesting facts:
Jung Bahadur spent just Rs 20,000 for raising an army and carrying out the rebellion.
A Jamadar got a monthly salary of Rs 40, a Sepoy Rs 30 and a Sawar Rs 10.
Jung Bahadur gave Rs 200 to his follower Deva Rao, to recruit 500 “soldiers?.
One of the most serious charges the Nizam’s government made against him was that he was claiming to be the Prince of Satara.
When searched the officials discovered that Jung Bahadur carried, 1) several papers in English and Marathi, translation of a deed of agreement and a seal saying he was the “Chatrapati of Satara?. This, according to the Nizam’s officials, amounted to a serious offence.
Jung Bahadur’s Kaulnama, or appointment letter, said “Persons coming from Royal families will also be enrolled in his army.? They would, however, get the same salary as the others.
#9 Posted by dost_mittar on July 9, 2008 6:45:57 am
Congratulations to Farzana on her book. Hope it is a commercial success as well.
Since the book is about identities, it is important to view it from Farzana's identity perspective - that of a non-practising Ismaili with a strong Indian Muslim identity. She is as protective of her Muslim identity in India as she is of her Indian identity when outside India (this is something arjunms do not recognise or appreciate).
Farzana says that Pakistan is restructuring its identity to deny its roots; from what I see, I think that this is perhaps now changing somewhat; there is a growning tendency among some Pakistanis to reclaim their roots, as shown by the widespread popularity of Aitezaz Ahsan's Indus Saga. I am also not quite sure what Farzana is refering to as the Indian identity being about the memory of what has been taken away. What exactly has been taken away?
I look forward to reading the book.
Since the book is about identities, it is important to view it from Farzana's identity perspective - that of a non-practising Ismaili with a strong Indian Muslim identity. She is as protective of her Muslim identity in India as she is of her Indian identity when outside India (this is something arjunms do not recognise or appreciate).
Farzana says that Pakistan is restructuring its identity to deny its roots; from what I see, I think that this is perhaps now changing somewhat; there is a growning tendency among some Pakistanis to reclaim their roots, as shown by the widespread popularity of Aitezaz Ahsan's Indus Saga. I am also not quite sure what Farzana is refering to as the Indian identity being about the memory of what has been taken away. What exactly has been taken away?
I look forward to reading the book.
#8 Posted by nb on July 9, 2008 6:18:26 am
#2 arjun, I don't have a problem so much with that. I don't know that I can forgive Farzana, not that she wants it of course, for her complete lack of compassion for Kashmiri Pandits, who apparently left the area because they were religiously motivated.
And then that she does have sympathy for the Palestinians who are in a similar situation.
And then that she refuses to acknowledge that there is a reason for the difference in the way she looks at them.
And then that she does have sympathy for the Palestinians who are in a similar situation.
And then that she refuses to acknowledge that there is a reason for the difference in the way she looks at them.
#7 Posted by Shah2 on July 9, 2008 5:43:04 am
I think Farzana is Deceptive and secretive with hidden agenda protecting something dearest to her.
If i am not wrong ..a selectively quoted peiece in equally rt.wing magazine ..describes her meeting with certain types of muslims .Let say the politicall inorrect 'bearded wallas'Easily identifiably She does not like .
She points how these equally peacefully working missinary ( not proud of that paul newman like character )can enjoy tea sitting in marriot with music going on even for interview with her !!!!.He did not owe her this .But gullible he .
She never mentions that marriot ( or any other Hotels are owned by her sect so are almost all of private investments tied up with International exit interest.
i know few paras of the book about how the bearded guy neglects his wife how terrible he is compared to Paul New Man
The begger of Jama Masjid going is not my responsibility but archetecture of Alhamra Spain is !!!!Was he cREATEDby Paul newman and his fans?
Here few Hashwani / Dadwanis i think she never introduced or interviewed
http://richpaki.tripod.com/hashwani.htm
He was completely unmindful of the stories that in 1989 Hashwani had to flee the country because of pressure to transfer the management of Pakistan Services Ltd operating a chain of five-star hotels to a Zardari nominee or face prosecution for recove
If i am not wrong ..a selectively quoted peiece in equally rt.wing magazine ..describes her meeting with certain types of muslims .Let say the politicall inorrect 'bearded wallas'Easily identifiably She does not like .
She points how these equally peacefully working missinary ( not proud of that paul newman like character )can enjoy tea sitting in marriot with music going on even for interview with her !!!!.He did not owe her this .But gullible he .
She never mentions that marriot ( or any other Hotels are owned by her sect so are almost all of private investments tied up with International exit interest.
i know few paras of the book about how the bearded guy neglects his wife how terrible he is compared to Paul New Man
The begger of Jama Masjid going is not my responsibility but archetecture of Alhamra Spain is !!!!Was he cREATEDby Paul newman and his fans?
Here few Hashwani / Dadwanis i think she never introduced or interviewed
http://richpaki.tripod.com/hashwani.htm
He was completely unmindful of the stories that in 1989 Hashwani had to flee the country because of pressure to transfer the management of Pakistan Services Ltd operating a chain of five-star hotels to a Zardari nominee or face prosecution for recove
#6 Posted by akcheema on July 9, 2008 5:39:05 am
Re: # 5; supersize sahiba
we couldn't be from more different worlds as far as points of view and general outlook is concerned (from what I know so far....I could be wrong though), but you are a bloody good writer
....keep it up and regards
we couldn't be from more different worlds as far as points of view and general outlook is concerned (from what I know so far....I could be wrong though), but you are a bloody good writer
....keep it up and regards
#5 Posted by SupersizeMe on July 9, 2008 5:27:03 am
what a crock of bullsh*t! no wonder indians have a negative image of their pakistani counterparts, i can understand some of her pain, but in fact many pakistani's i know from my regions are beyond having a bitchy/resenting thing or two to say about indians, they're thoughts are entrenched in more pressing matters (more closer to home), and she's talking about kashmir, the people of pakistan are completely oblivious to it.
she obviously didnt scope out well, she researched the wrong crowds! i was hoping to find a broader spectrum of thoughts and ideologies but this is extremely narrow minded, it's like she made a statement confirming her fears buried in the depths of her mind, rather than venturing out with an open mind and actually encountering the real ground realities.
fine, it's her opinion, the author is entitled to that, and i should learn to respect her views, but i hope this peice is not touted about as anything more than one individual's opinion.
she obviously didnt scope out well, she researched the wrong crowds! i was hoping to find a broader spectrum of thoughts and ideologies but this is extremely narrow minded, it's like she made a statement confirming her fears buried in the depths of her mind, rather than venturing out with an open mind and actually encountering the real ground realities.
fine, it's her opinion, the author is entitled to that, and i should learn to respect her views, but i hope this peice is not touted about as anything more than one individual's opinion.
#4 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 5:15:20 am
before someone pulls a "queer eye for jihadi apologist girl" make over trick, here's another one of FV's pre 9/11 articles..
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4945
The Soft Option
Farzana Versey December 3, 2000
As regards Kashmir, how can we say that Pakistan is misrepresenting the term ‘jehad’ for the militancy there, when we are operating at the same level, only with more deftness? To therefore make a poor state into a pawn is a cheap way of getting public sympathy and shows no evidence of statesmanship. If our neighbour is fighting a proxy war and its aim is “bleeding India through a thousand cuts?, then whose responsibility is it to not let the blood congeal?
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4945
The Soft Option
Farzana Versey December 3, 2000
As regards Kashmir, how can we say that Pakistan is misrepresenting the term ‘jehad’ for the militancy there, when we are operating at the same level, only with more deftness? To therefore make a poor state into a pawn is a cheap way of getting public sympathy and shows no evidence of statesmanship. If our neighbour is fighting a proxy war and its aim is “bleeding India through a thousand cuts?, then whose responsibility is it to not let the blood congeal?
#3 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 4:35:57 am
Now before the usual suspects jump in...
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4824
Khuda Hafiz, Kashmir?
Which is why I support the move for its autonomy. We have no business to claim a ‘disputed’ territory as our own.
And, yes, khuda hafiz, Kashmir. You were never mine.
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4824
Khuda Hafiz, Kashmir?
Which is why I support the move for its autonomy. We have no business to claim a ‘disputed’ territory as our own.
And, yes, khuda hafiz, Kashmir. You were never mine.
#2 Posted by _arjun9 on July 9, 2008 4:32:08 am
First of all..the title is misleading..FV is hardly indian...she's pakistani at heart...an NRI if you will..Not Really Indian..she merely resides in india because doing so affords certain freedoms that wouldn't be available in the land of the pure...tea at the sea lounge being just one...
looked at with suspicion and treated with a certain degree
of caution
Murtaza..have you read Farzana's writing on chowk? When she's not being an apologist for the kashmiri "jihadis" and telling us the kashmiri hindus left on their own, she's busy being an apologist for the taliban...she told us the taliban blowing up the buddhas
being anti-Indian is an important part of Pakistani identity. And Kashmir fits perfectly in that quest for a national narrative
Have you read farzana's writings on kashmir..her articles on chowk...you'd never guess she was indian...
looked at with suspicion and treated with a certain degree
of caution
Murtaza..have you read Farzana's writing on chowk? When she's not being an apologist for the kashmiri "jihadis" and telling us the kashmiri hindus left on their own, she's busy being an apologist for the taliban...she told us the taliban blowing up the buddhas
being anti-Indian is an important part of Pakistani identity. And Kashmir fits perfectly in that quest for a national narrative
Have you read farzana's writings on kashmir..her articles on chowk...you'd never guess she was indian...
#1 Posted by laddu on July 9, 2008 4:08:29 am
I would be interested in knowing whether she was asked by the Pakistanis as to how she can live surrounded by the hindu idolators without feeling offended from their kufr and why she does not participate in Jehad against these mushrique hindus? and whether she would prefer to live in the pure land along with fellow momeens or the kafirs and mushriques?
I would like to know what her answers were to these questions?
I would like to know what her answers were to these questions?
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