Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance

Found very interesting the discussion going on here. Sorry that I came very late on the scene and could read interacts #306 so far. What I have read so far recall to me a couplet from Mir Taqi Mir:

"Yih tawwaaham ka karkhana he
Yaan woh hi he jo ehtibar kia"

Re: # 134

sattar2

In continuation of my previous post:

One of my 'ham-zulf' was a grandson of Mohammadi Begum. When he died many of his Ahmadi relatives, I saw, were present in his janaza who offered prayer behind a sunni mullaah, to which sect he had belonged.

Re: # 133

There is an authentic hadees that Imam Quresh mein se ho ga. So some of my Qurehi friends, especially, syeds ones, don't offer namaz behind a non-Qureshi mullah.

I wonder why should a mullah at all lead a prayer when the Quran says "Warqaoo maaraaqaeen" (Jhuko jhukne wwalon ke saath).

Re: # 61

krbhatti

You say:

"Now coming to the issue of ahmadiyya community once again. One thing that one do not realize and has been talked about many times is that what is happening to ahmadis in Pakistan is nothing that they would not do, if they are in power and majority. They want to create a khilafat, and call their religious head a khalifa. Further, please read my ilogs where I gave references about the attitude of founders of ahmadiya community regardng non ahmadi muslims. As a matter of fact the main arguement for declaring them non muslims was based on their own writtings where they declared non ahmadi muslims as non muslims...."

If that is the case then why not all those who call themselves Muslims may not be declared as "barbarians, pedophiles, polygamists, suiciders, homiciders, misogynists, murderers, syphilitic whores or lepers,etc., etc. by non-muslim governments" as suggested by hmidm:

Or simply 'Maleechhas' by Indian government?


Do you agree ?

Quite a hornets nest you've put your hand into eh furkan?

Re: # 421

hahaha..!! Can't say I disagree..!!

Re: # 420 Load You
"Why are Pakis so full of hatred for Ahmedis......?"

Because we direct our anger inwards. If we were to direct it outwards we'd have another war with you.

One must hate something in life, or are you totally over-flowing with love?

Why are Pakis so full of hatred for Ahmedis......

In my opinion the day that nonsense statement would be deleted from Paki passports is the day we can see some hope for Pakistan...

otherwise Pakistan is on the way to its own destruction for sure!!!

Re: # 418 Stutter-2

Will you stop comparing yourselves to the noble 'sahabah'? You're schismatic absconders, and nowhere near the rank of the 'sahabah'!

"Watch out for Mirzaees under the bed when you go to sleep at night. Boo … "

You know, your own kind will not like themselves being labelled dust mites and bed-bugs!

tahir bhai (#416) … here we go again with make-believe stories. Your post is based on innuendo and propaganda … and lacks substance (sorta like “hashish in Qadian� – grin). Other than that you may have a point!

Mystic (#417), you may want to rethink what you are trying to say; I can't make head and tail of your comments. If you keep this up, you too may go blind …

Re #414: Note that early Muslims too cited persecution when they sought refuge in neighboring nations.

Gentlemen, it’s been fun. Watch out for Mirzaees under the bed when you go to sleep at night. Boo …

Re: # 411
Sattar
"You wiil go blind"

U QADIANI THINK BT BECOMING DOCTORS PHYSICIST BECOME RIGHT ?IF YOU BELIVE IN THIS SHYTE TURN ME BLIND YOU FOOL?????DONT INTIMIDATE POOR VILLAGE FOLKS TALK TO NON MUSLIM !!!!

Re: # 411 Non-Starter
"tahir bhai (re #408), you'll go blind if you keep this"

So, now you're able to predict the future like MGAQ?

Remember His Sponsored Accidency's failed attempts at marrying a certain lady whom he was unable to marry (oh mommy!), and who instead married a soldier who fought in WW-I, then returned home in one piece AND out-lived your idol! MGAQ also made many false predictions; the hallmark of a pretender!

If THIS is the blindness you promise me, I'm all eyes for you Asad! Fire your saliva in my direction but watch the wind direction.

The answer is not always blowing in the wind....

Re: # 412 Zaman sahib,

"And, I quote "Down with all the 'asleep-at-the-wheel' Muslims at ChowQ."

My efforts have borne fruit! Sleepy truck-drivers HAVE risen in defense (no, I don't mean DHA!), the despised vegetables (of the 'Q' variety) are on the run, and some of the endangered species of Indian-origin are in total disarray (hau hai, abb kia karaiN?).

"...to further document persecution and claim asylum visas outside Pakistan...."

Valid point but OUR hammering is also getting documented by the recording angels! Truth makes falsehood vanish.

All this bickering by Qadianies Aka Mirazees is to further document persecution and claim asylum visas outside Pakistan.

Re: # 405
"Then there is this "Ahmadi-Israeli-British connection"
Connection my foot, Qadianis are no more than nutfa-e-ghaleez of British Jews

Re: # 119
Tahir bhaya
Woh na samjhay thay na samjhain gay hamari baat.
On one hand people extend bribes on the other hand they look for reforms, thats quite a contrast.
And, I quote "Down with all the 'asleep-at-the-wheel' Muslims at ChowQ.."

tahir bhai (re #408), you'll go blind if you keep this up ...

Re: # 409 Too 'fani'
"I remain, your humble master"

Say 'your humble servant'.

And why scare ChowQ-kids with this 'Hu-Who' thing?

Hu


I remain, your humble master

your mullah,

Maulana Toofani

Let it be known to all, that Asad Sattar (alias Sattar-2) has miraculous powers! MGAQ has smile on him directly from the toilet!

1) He is able to remove the red-flags from his own posts!

2) He is able to predict what the ChowQ Stuffed are planning to do with those who challenge their sense of shame.

3) With the use of a wand, he can block an entire discussion and prevent receiving interacts from all or any chosen interacter! (see # 403 and notice the DATE; a most obscene figure!)

4) He can do more but he won't say WHAT right now.

Punjabi imperialism under Mirza sounds better than "Arab imperialism"


why not be proud punjabis...... than be peon of the arabs..

Ahmadi movement is just like any other religious movements in Punjab. Look at what is happening in east Punjab.. the deras.. they are challenging the prevailing social order mostlu non- jat sikhs supporting the deras.

That’s the work of any new system…. to challenge the prevailing social order.

Is Ahmadi movement too made up of mainly non- jat muslims ?

tahir bhai,

Are you feeling alright? What would be the point of our meeting ...?

BTW, how is the thesis on "Hashish in Qadian" coming along? Then there is this "Ahmadi-Israeli-British connection" ...

Any other conspiracy theories you are working on in your spare time? Keep us informaed ... kaal bhai too is eager to find out.

Hello there Asad Sattar (alias Sattar-2)!

Maybe next time we'll be able to meet out in San Jose.

This article is closed to discussion.

Latest comments flat threaded latest oldest all

# Posted by on December 31, 1969 4:00:00 pm
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content

Shah bhai (#394),

What you say about Ahmadi-Muslims applies to early Muslims as well. You should carefully think things through.

Let the Africans and Asians choose as they will. Note the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too was rejected … first and foremost … in his own homeland. Early Muslims too were characterized the way you are characterizing Ahmadi-Muslims. So your point remains invalid.

And don’t worry too much about Ahmadis. Instead, pay attention to the ummah … which is going down the path of social and political turmoil, fanaticism, and senseless violence. Try to get your own house in order first …

kaal bhai (#393) … that’s a lot of rhetoric and innuendo, but without much substance.

Ahmadi-Muslims aim to live by and spread the peaceful message of Islam and the true teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). They continue to counter persecution and violence with patience and piety.

What knowledgeable Muslims do is their business. They may strive to live peacefully or blow themselves up while chasing conspiracy theories. It is all a matter of choice. What goes around, comes around. Call it karma … call it divine justice … or simply call it laws of nature.

Don’t sweat this too much; it is not all that complicated (lol).
Best wishes to you too.

Re: # 395


Faylasuf.

Trust but verify

Conspiracy theories are GOOd .It keeps you one step ahead Even if has not happened whenit happens you can say I Told You So .Only Paranoid Survive .USA is making full use of Paranoia ,
Yes jews have been infilterting muslms either Saudi or Palestenians or Sects of Muslims Druze Alvi Aga Qadiani have full incentive to join them when they are fighting with rest for leadership

In #397 read "When they point the finger towards those parties 9 time out of 10 they are correct, their only flaw is that the jews are subordinate in this equation, only where their desires coincide with the US desires do they succeed, they are persented as the major antagonists by the US itself to mask the real face of the oppressors..." as

When our people point the finger of blame towards those parties (US/Israel) 9 times out of 10 they are correct, their only flaw is that the Jews are subordinate players in this equation, only where their desires coincide with the US desires do they succeed, they are persented as the major antagonists by the US itself to mask the real face of the oppressors...

Ananth07 writes "By accepting Mirza (pbuh)… Pakistan can emerge as a alternate power center to the Arab imperialism"

A clear case of bribery, similar to what the US offers the Pakistan Army to sell the nation. In the world today, there is no power center of "Arab imperialism", they are all peon states kept in check by a tiny rat-fart "country" Israel, and in total submission to the US (not Allah)...

Faylasuf writes "RE #370
Masadi, I can only term your post as a case of flawed perception. "

A cheap excuse, please explain why it is flawed and what you meant by your hate the military, hate the..... nonsense, this was a case of equating hate with hate, whereas hate for the Pakistan Army as I proved translates into love for the Pakistani nation and people. Sometimes it is good to accept that you spoke without thinking rather than make these cheap excuses....

Regarding the first part of your post, Western "conspiracy" using the Jewish elite have kept the entire ME in check, it is for good reason that people suspect them whenever anything bad happens in our areas. Don't forget that the world system today, more concentrated than it ever was in the past, in which the US as the dominant player, "reality" generator, has greater effects on the life and death of people in our world by their decisions or lack thereof, and they have shown complete contempt for our people by their policies to make them conscious of their shenanigans. When they point the finger towards those parties 9 time out of 10 they are correct, their only flaw is that the jews are subordinate in this equation, only where their desires coincide with the US desires do they succeed, they are persented as the major antagonists by the US itself to mask the real face of the oppressors...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Whenever some thing goes wrong with Pakistan or Muslims in General, Why is it always termed as a conspiracy by Jews or Christians? No Jews/Christian conspiracy is needed to kill or cause disturbance at least in Pakistan. Pakistanis are well versed in the art of self destruction.



RE #370
Masadi, I can only term your post as a case of flawed perception.

And since majmudar is not available you would not be able to rationalize or understand, I can see you are frustrated because of “chowk staff� and whatever has happened with yr post/ilogs.

Re: # 392
Sattar Bhai ji
All sects like yours Aga Bohra Kadiani are on the same template .Centralize the authority to any one as long as he is strong and like pack of animals flock around him We all know the advantage of a Pack it helps to hunt better fight better shout better ,But is this pack good for other outside the Pack?

simple ton muslims are your target The north africans Bengalis,South Asians ,who are non arabic script literate and like brahmins you can con them with all sorts of arabic mumbo jumbo to ignorent there is NO choice And you claim adherent from among the already muslims who were muslims without you .

Yes all u sect tout in 3rd world Indi Pakistan B Desh that you are global .But its another conning.It gives the impression to locals who never leave there village that out there somewhere there 100 milion qadianis and Mirza or Burhanuddin or Aga sits on a throne palace london paris calgary .Very much like in old days anybody Vilayat return was Master .

Lets see from the perspective of you exiled qadianis Aga Bohras .You will always be on the run either from Idi Amin 9/11 .Future of desi outside his environment is not ideal desirable or first choice So we pity you that you have to live as refugees all ove the world Dont cry persecution when you were warned like child not to touch fire

Regarding parable with Mohommeds Hizrat .ROTFL what can i say then every immigrant who left there country is Mohommed ?

sattar bhai, I will make this the last post on this for now.

You are NOT building a global jamat. You are building your jamat among non-Muslims, among the ignorant, willing or unwilling. Knowledgeable Muslims simply won't accept you (no matter what some people here say).

So, by your own admission, you are destroying Muslims. They won't accept you, and by your logic, your Allah will punish and destroy them for not accepting you. Good going, sattar bhai.

What you are selling is NOT good for Muslims, it seems.

First truly anti-Muslim force on earth. We will see how it fares.

May be there is something more powerful than Islam - mirzaism, that punishes and destroys Muslims for not accepting it.

Best wishes.

Shah bhai,

I wouldn’t worry about Bangladesh or Indonesia. Pakistan also banned Ahmadis, and we all know how well it has done as a nation since then. Ahmadi-Muslims on the other hand have moved on establish a global jamaat with centers all over the world [I humbly thank Allah Almighty for our success – from the bottom of my heart …]

BTW, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and early Muslims too were banned by the Meccans. We now live in global times … so opposition now will come from quarters across the globe. No big deal …

The message of Quran remains the same and is just as applicable. Allah Almighty is the Living God and He Alone is our Protector and our Witness.

+++

kaal bhai, you're most welcome :)

Praying was only a joke; don’t take it too seriously (grin). However, the point about your paranoia with Ahmadis was meant in all seriousness. Perhaps you should take time off and reflect. No?

OK, sattar bhai, thanks. We can let your answer stand as best testimony to the wisdom of your divinely inspired mirzai Islam from your allah.

Regards.

(While I can't speak for shah ji, I will gladly join you for any prayer anywhere, before you get rid of your mirzaism or after that. It's silly talking about all this stuff when we pray to the Ultimate God, no? :))

C’mon kaal bhai …

So far you have shown little regard for facts or reason … and pushed what you kinda-sorta know (or perhaps, what you kinda-sorta wish was true). After taking cheap shots at Ahmadis, without reason or validation, all of a sudden you now have a “genuine inquiry�? Hmmm ...

Nothing personal kaal bhai … it’s just that your paranoia with Ahmadis is your mental roadblock. Once you get rid of it, we can visit the mosque. Perhaps Shah bhai will also join us … (grin)

Gosh, is answering a question so hard, sattar bhai? And you claim to be one of God's Prophet's people?!! LOL

Bhai jan, I would gladly pray anywhere if that would make you happy. It would be silly of God to be not there, just because you are there.

So, what, according to your prophet mirzai pai, is the deal - is he the last prophet of your allah now, or are more coming?

Hey, that's a genuine inquiry. You know, it's about the big man himself - the maker of the galaxies and blackholes and outerspace - is he going to send us any more prophets or was mirza pai it, from him?! :)

Re: # 386
A qadiani now trying to convert a Hindu .

Hindus if reject isam /muslim then Ahmedia kis khet ke moli hai?
You can only prey on simpleton muslims like bengali ,indonesian muslims who are rising to your coniving .

B adesh will soon be banning you guys as Indonesia!

Re: # 386
A qadiani now trying to convert a Hindu .

Hindus if reject isam /muslim then Ahmedia kis khet ke moli hai?
You can only prey on simpleton muslims like bengali ,indonesian muslims who are rising to your coniving .

B adesh will soon be banning you guys as Indonesia!

kaal bhai,

I don’t know about sufis … so I can’t say much. But I do think you are making an ass of yourself here. Just an honest thought …

Theological discussions have been going on for thousands of years … and they are not going to end with your query. So first, try to get over your petty obsession with Ahmadis ... and then we can discuss more. I am sure we may even become good friends one day and pray together in the mosque … ;)

"Don’t get too hung up on details."

Please don't go all sufi on us. I am sure your prophet mirza pai didn't have much use for sufis or sufism.

So, is mirza pai your last and final prophet of allah or can any new divine explanations (as opposed to direct human interpretations) of the Quran can be expected?

Just a theological question, my friend. You can continue to believe whatever you want. We can end this with this final nugget of wisdom from one of allah's prophet's people. :)

kaal bhai,

Don’t get too hung up on details – this is not the right time for you. First, try to get over your paranoia with Ahmadis and Mirza Sahib … it is not serving you well. If and when you have sufficiently recovered, we can discuss more. Sounds good?

Just a theological query.

So our Mirza pai is the LAST (as in *final*, *akhiri*, *no-more after this one* not "best" or whatever) prophet of this Islamic allah of yours?

Or should we expect more, each with newer and better *divine* explanations (as opposed to mere human interpretations, as with Muslims) soon?

kaal bhai, here’s a brief lesson in Islam:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself foretold appearance of a future prophet. So perhaps you should take up this issue with the ummah. No?

Regardless, you may believe what works for you. Just don’t get paranoid with Ahmadis - and all should be fine. Peaceful rejection is not a problem … but active opposition of Allah’s prophet and his people invites divine wrath.

Just look at the ummah for an example. More severely a jihadi opposes Ahmadis, closer he is to becoming a suicide bomber.

Trust me; it really is that simple …!

sattar bhai, it's NOT that simple. Propeht Muhammad was the last Prophet of Allah, according to Muslims.

Now, you say that unless Muslims give up that core belief and accept your Mirza pai ji as the next Prophet of Allah, and listen to Mirza pai ji's 'explanations' as divine guidance (over and above their own understanding) Muslims will be destroyed.

You may have the last word here because you won't with Muslims.

kaal bhai,

We are on the same page here. But self-destruction is a matter of choice … kinda like suicide bombing. I hope you’ll choose wisely (grin).

Respecting prophets … whether it is Mirza Sahib or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) … is not that important as long as you don’t get paranoid with them … or with their followers. It is really that simple … ;)

There is NO ummah chummah jummah
Its only Aga Mirzaee Bohra Shia Wahabi Bareilvi Rajneshi Ba ba Ram devi sects .No Hindu No muslim

sattar bhai, it very well might. If the fellow you worship is Allah, and if he is sending down propehts like mirza bhai sahib, then I obviously oppose this god, and his propeht mirza bhai sahib - a person who certainly does not deserve my respect at least (may be yours?).

If that means I will be destroyed, and Musims will be destroyed, while you will rule the world, hey, be my guest! :)

kaal bhai … you have a point there …

Ummah remains obsessed with Mirzaees … even as it continues to blow itself up. Perhaps this is the punishment for those who oppose Allah and His prophet: they gradually self-destruct … in more ways than one.

But this does not explain your paranoia … or does it? (lol)

sattar bhai, only if Muslims could be convinced with these smart alec comments and usual Mirzai trickery. :) :) :)

kaal bhai … in other words you have nothing on Mirzaees besides your usual paranoia.

It reminds me of a bumper sticker … �just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me� … (grin)

This fittingly describes your state of mind; not that there is anything wrong with it. So try to relax ...
Cheers.

+++

tahir Sahib,

Ummah and kaal bhai are eagerly waiting to hear about “Hashish in Qadian� and “Ahmadi-Jewish-British connection�. Don't keep them waiting; the suspense is too much ...

Ummah is blowing itself up and taking hostages in big red buildings ... and you want to expose Qadiannis (sigh).
Hello, is anybody home?

In addition to #373, know that these are the kinds of people (Chowk Staff) that have kept our countries underdeveloped by playing the white man's game. Look how they shamelessly censor my articles, suppress my voice and alter the ilog system to display everyone's but my ilogs. This is clear injustice and people like these have kept corruption and underdevelopment in our countries. This site is a farce run by a-holes, and I do not need to waste my time here anymore. Get this sh** straight, a damn tragedy that people who can mnake a difference and have the will to do so are kept in check by these misearble sobs...

By the way, verify for yourself, 5 minutes after I published my ilog, Ana published an ilog as well, her ilog is displayed on the FP, mine got lost in the ilog list....now can you see how these fools are discriminating against me??

After my anti-army ilog went to the FP in the ilog list, chowk staff (tahmed & co, I speculate because of circumstantial evidence) altered how ilogs get displayed, as a result my ilog, new ones, vanish without a trace and a sharp decrease in readership. Here was the latest one

Articles Chowk Staff (tahmed & Co) have censoredPosted: Jul 22, 2008 Tue 02:41 am Views: 0 Interacts: 0 The following articles were submitted to Chowk Staff, but were censored with no explanation given. This censorship is going on because of a few members, namely tahmed, mohammad gill and Sohail the shrink. By doing so, just because they cannot argue with my anti-imperialist stance, which they support, they are trying to suppress my voice.

Recently a few other good members (those not yet on the dark side of the empire) Hurricane, Iron_mask, Zeemax and a few others started a publish masadi campaign.

The following articles were censored by chowk staff, they were subsequently published elsewhere or on my blog, use google to read them:

The Misadventures of the Pakistan Army
July 2008

This author's articlesThe US “World War� Factory
Sunday June 29th, 2008

Why Restoring the Deposed Judges is Priority #1 for Pakistan
Monday May 12th, 2008

Lost in Translation: The Myth of American Freedom
Thursday March 13th, 2008

Legitimizing a Farce
Sunday February 24th, 2008

Ahmedinejad Visits New York: The Iran Crisis in Context
Wednesday September 26th, 2007

Dogmatism, Modernization and Islam
Sunday June 24th, 2007

Factionalism, Social Movement Structure & Social Change
Wednesday June 13th, 2007

Exposing Al-Jazeera
Wednesday June 6th, 2007

Development and Underdevelopment
Thursday May 10th, 2007

Worthy & Unworthy Victims: The Virginia Tech Massacre
April 20, 2007

Overcoming the Colonial ’Subordination Model’ of Education: Reform in the Higher Education Sector of Pakistan.
Wednesday March 28th, 2007



As you can see they have been censoring any and every article I have submitted since March 2007 which is over a year and a half. Other members who are being robbed of meaningful discourse and knowledge by these few thugs should stand up to get rid of this censorship.

Thanks!

As you can see some peon of the West hired by Chowk Staff and their paymasters is redflagging every post of mine, so they can pick on one and ban me again and then say, "oopps it was a red flagging accident"- I get your tricks, and believe me having me banned is more your loss than mine...

faylasuf writes "p.s. Majumdar sahib, I was only wunderin y masadi is so impressed by you that he has eventually started giving your name as a reference :) ..."

Actually Majumdar understands better than many what I write, see how he explained my pov to Jay, and that is because he reads what I write unlike others who just want to argue for the sake of argumentation (like you are). You were equating hate of the tyrants of the military with the other hate you mentioned, there is qualitative difference between those, hating the anti people tyrants is actually loving the people that make this nation, it is loving the nation....get it?

Re # 333

Masadi sahib is talkin bout moral clarity! Hmmmm

Masadi, M not “trying to morally equate� any one, did u even try to read or understand what I had written? Or it’s only that you love to criticize and fight with every second person other then your own self?

p.s. Majumdar sahib, I was only wunderin y masadi is so impressed by you that he has eventually started giving your name as a reference :)

BTW hamzaad unlike your kind and chowk staff with their 'impotent rage' the end result of which is picking on non-issues to censor me, my "rage" is full of substance and logically sound arguments that you all, the carriers of 'impotent rage' cannot match, hence your dimwitted posts or outright censorship...Saying I sound flimsy with no proof to back it up except non-issue BS, tell us all who te flimsy ones are...

hamzaad writes "Is this the same trick as saying 'gnight' and 'this is my last post' but not really?.."

I know you do not have the brains to argue any real issues with me so you pick on this nonsense. The g'night is never accompanied by 'this is my last post', if a thought comes to me after saying g'night I reserve the right to pen it, any problems? Regarding the "impotent rage", I think I already explained that, they have no route to express their rage to suppress the truth, even though they might try tricks to ban me, the truth has a way of getting out. If you do not like my polite "g'night" I have some other greetings reserved for fools like you. If you have problems with my ideas deal with them rather than pick on non-issues like 'you said g'bye but then posted again!" what kind of BS is that?

Kaal, you have still not answered my question. In what way are Ahmedis evil?

eklavya

foreskin is foreskin, there is no deception there... you are being way too friendly with the resident taliban... watch out for zeemax and his paaki... he will expect a shukrana plus mithai after he is done.

adamkhan, yaar, both with foreskin and without foreskin are ok. But nobody wants people with deceptive skin around.

Eklavya

a circumcision at your age would be quite painful. I would suggest you to hold on tight to the bhagwat gita, because in the end, all religions believe in one supreme god. So why ponder over the different versions, when ones foreskin is at stake?!?

Muslims don't need any information from me, sattar bhai. Those Muslims who have actually bothered to learn about Mirzais have that information already. And they have done well to keep Mirzais where all deceivers are to be kept.

But that does not mean you should not keep trying to destroy Islam and take over the Islamic world. Sanity is not necessary. :)

kaal bhai,

Feel free to share your information on Mirzaees; ummah has been searching for over a century now! You are new to the scene, so knock yourself out (grin).

Trust me, problems shall be overcome one by one. So far ummah has not done very well … unless you count Lal Masjids and suicide bombings as success. So don’t worry about Ahmadis; rather pay attention to the sinking feeling in your guts ... or to zeemax as he boards the city bus you are riding (ouch!).

Sattar bhai, believe me, I very much appreciate what Mirzais are doing for all non-Muslims because I am familiar with Mirzai history and with the life of Mirzai bhai sahib. :)

But sattar bhai sahib, again, I merley point to deceipt when I see it. Mirzai problem is not non-Muslims, but Islam and Islam alone, unless, as you feel sure you will, you can somehow overcome it.

May be you Mirzais can do it, but I wouldn't bet my money on it. First you will have to just survive in the Islam world, THEN dream of taking it over or destroying it. LOL

kaal bhai,

I am trying to make the next 1400 years easy on you as Ahmadis continue to revive true Islam. Trust me, you’ll grow to love us all over again. We already count Ram and Krishna as noble prophets of Allah Almighty. I hope you won't hold that against us.

The ummah continues to lose the battle of hearts and minds … and has thus become heavy-hnaded. Violence is the last resort of the incompetent - how pitiful.

... and this could happen to you too; so pay attention to the sinking feeling in your gut (grin).

# 33 Mohar11 wrote :

"Do saudis consider ahmedis as muslims?"

Ahmadis and Ahmadiyya Jamaat do not consider Saudis as Muslims , hence Saudis also do not consider Ahmadis as Muslims.

No Non Muslim is allowed to enter Holy Kaaba, but after paying bribes, Ahmadis make multiple passports with Muslim written in the religion section, hence enter Holy Kaaba.

It is also belief of Jamaat Ahmadiyya that one day Jamaat Ahmadiyya will take over holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

Keeping in view the financial power, bribery skills and settlement of Ahmadis in rich Western countries , it is quite possible that Ahmadies may try to take over Holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

Ordinary Ahmadies are also told by Ahmadiyya leadership that either Jamaat Ahmadiyya will take over Pakistan , or Pakistan will be destroyed.

Aah, there you go, sattar bhai, full of old conspiratorial winks and nods.

If you are confident you will replace Islam with Mirzaism, as an outsider, I can only wish good luck to you. And advise you to not speak too loudly in the Muslim world.

Just remember, Muslims are not the ignorant Hindus and Christians whom you have convinced. :)

kaal bhai, a side comment: The sinking feeling you are getting in your stomach is true; Ahmadi-Muslims are destined to succeed and are out of your league. You should consider waiting out the next 1400 years. Sorry if this upsets you, but we’ll be more gentle this time around (grin). And your future generations will grow to love us like you never thought possible (wink) …

kaal bhai,

It is easy to push a conspiracy theory by claiming “everyone knows that ...� and “if evidence suggests ...� [wide grin]. Ummah has been trying for over a century now … but with no success. Can you do better?

Don’t worry - we only aim to take Islam back to its original message, as preached by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Ummah today places undue emphasis on hatred and violence … and that is not good.

You may think of them as jahil and cheer them on to self-destruction … but I am hopeful they can learn to exist peacefully and even progress with time. Now, that would be wonderful … no??

sattar bhai, everyone knows that the British promoted Mirzaism as a counter to Islam's power in the subcontinent. And lots of Jews worked with the British, so the British-Jewish connection - if there is any evidence to suggest it - seems quite plausible. Both would want something you yourself mentioned - replace Islam with an alternative that 'evolved with time'.

Understandably, from your pov, Prophet Muhammad's religion, without your Mirza bhai's 'divine clarifications' was a jahil religion that needed 'evolution.'

kaal bhai (#291, 294),

When it comes to Ahmadis, conspiracy theories abound! Now you know how the ummah feels. There is this Jewish connection; then there is this British conspiracy; they are a ring of sex addicts, an international drug cartel, and more. A CIA-connection? Any day now. How do you think Salam got the nobel? This is indeed proof enough. No?

+++

Such fanciful paranoia will keep you struggling under centuries-old baggage … not unlike the ummah. A new perspective in Islam is needed to renew its original message … and we are here to help (grin).

Ideas evolve, or deteriorate, based on one’s perspective. This should be handled with maturity and due-diligence - but not with brute force, be it physical or intellectual. You decide ...

masadi,

what about the 'rage' part? The 'impotent rage' seems like your oRhnaa bichona, no?

Is this the same trick as saying 'gnight' and 'this is my last post' but not really? Are these just words.. and why do you say them in the first place? Do you realize how flimsy you sound?

They certainly are "impotent" if they think that by censoring my voice they can suppress the truth....think before you post...

'#349 Posted by masadi on July 21, 2008 9:49:24 am
g'night, and may the censorers and others that are mortally afraid of the truth perish in their inadequacies and their impotent rage.......'

masadi,

This may seem naughty to point out... but 'impotent' people are censoring your articles and whatnot (conclusionL they are not impotent). Are you losing your mind.. and just projecting your mental state on them?

g'night, and may the censorers and others that are mortally afraid of the truth perish in their inadequacies and their impotent rage.......

Lying is the hallmark of the peons of the West, the entire system of their masters is based on lies and fluff. Many times have I exposed the uber Peon of the WEst, tahmed's lies and now he claims he doesn't lie, which by itself is a lie....

tahir (#289),

“Falsehood and deception� in matters of faith is a relative issue. E.g., most people today ascribe these to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also - so your point remains invalid. I am comfortable with my understanding of Islam and so should you be.

Main issue is enforcing one’s faith by arm-twisting others; I hope you can tell right from wrong here.

+++

Re #295: Feel free to elaborate on “Hashish From Qadian� … and “Ahmadi-British-Jewish Connection�. It may finally give Urstruly and his ullema something they have been searching for, for almost a century now. Look, you also have Zeemax’s full attention now. Tell us everything …

tahmed writes "the reason you dont see that post anymore is because it got pushed out because of the 3-4 posts i have written this morning after they lifted the ban..."

More lies, interacts don't get pushed out, I can check my very first interact on Chowk back in 2005 if I so chose, that interact you made on July 19 that was there, is now clean vanished, because as Chowk Staff, you have the privilage (that you abuse) of removing interacts....

....and that hurrican, iron_mask and others is the reason why my anti-US/anti-Pakistan Army articles do not get published. Tahmed. (period)!

#343 masadi: nothing amazing. posts from banned posters continue to show with the heading only on their interact list. however, they are never posted on the fp, like i said.

the reason you dont see that post anymore is because it got pushed out because of the 3-4 posts i have written this morning after they lifted the ban.

try this next time you are banned, and you will see this true for your posts too.

like i said, i have many faults, but lying is not one of them. last post. have a good day.

Amazing work tahmed, now you see it now you don't. This person is definitely on Chowk Staff, when I did the previous post and checked his interact list, it had a JULY 19 post on it, now I go to recheck it and it is gone, clean clear after July 15. Now I know why I am getting banned so often, this person sits on the benches that ban people...

#340 masadi: dont get mad. just post the post that you claim i wrote on the 19th and which got published and thus prove your claim that i am a liar.

#336 instead of repeatedly calling me a liar, why dont you prove it by posting the post you say was published with a date of july 19?

And don't try to provoke me so that I can get banned for no reason again. You want that because every argument of mine stumps your unconditional worship of the white man. Be a man and face up to the lies that keep you enslaved ....

zeemax: greetings. i shall check it out, my friend.

majumder: thanks for the offer. but that is OK, no need to make a hue and cry on my behalf.

tahmed32,

Since I know you're interested, don't miss the interview of Justice Khalil Ramday in my iLog.

tahmed writes "masadi #333 no, i am not lying as you claim. that last post dated 19th was never posted by chowk on the front page.."

Lying again. Posts are published on fp, and posts made when you are under ban do not show up under your interacts. Instead of clearly witnessing their injustice in suppressing my articles and my voice for baseless reasons, you support the tyrants just like you support US tyranny around the globe.

masadi #333 no, i am not lying as you claim. that last post dated 19th was never posted by chowk on the front page. my last post was the 15th. i wrote 3-4 other posts after that, all of which were suppressed.

So, thanks for the compliment, but by now you should have realized that I may be many evil things, but I am not a liar.

Faylasuf writes "Hate Army, Hate the politicians, Hate the Moulvi

Hate Hate Hate"

Please get some moral clarity before writing this nonsense, you are trying to morally equate those that hate those that hate humanity for their own petty BS (the pakistan army), with those that support those petty thugs and deliberately shift their focus of hate on other parties while masking their hate for humanity.

If you have problem understanding this, ask Majumdar, he knows what I mean....

tahmed writes "#322 masadi: you can stop playing the martyr. chowk staff banned me too for the same number of days as you (and i am not even sure if the ban is still on or not - this post will tell me!!). and they banned me for a post that did not violate their guidelines in any reasonable manner. and this is not the first time they have done it (once they banned me for merely thanking another poster for something complimentary he had written!)."

The purpose behind my complaint is not to "play the martyr" but to expose the miserable chowk staff to their members for being censorship promoters. Please let us know how many times they have banned you, your articles that they have blatantly censored (with their titles) and get your claims straight, your last post was on the 19th before today, which makes your detention slightly over the 24 hour limit given US time, as you will notice I was kept out for over 3 days. So quit lying as you try to cover up the censorship of chowk staff...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 330
Abey Satya true liar 100

There are many philosophies in India gadhe not only yours.

Yours Kali Thug to Mahabharat are soooo non violent peacefull not to speak of modern bride burning infanticide Modi Shiv Sena ...list limitless Shiv Sainik Dove Lol

mystic mia,

your post is`full of mist. it includes american indian violence as indian violence.

Bakistani should consider America also original India and have permanent hate for it. pl do not come to america because it is jalil india.

thanks

Re: # 313

"Why Indian philosophy is THE best?...every region you will find some prophets like Satya Sai, Basava, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna etc... Their followers live peacefully, without causing bloodshed" ROTFL


Indian/Hindu (hindian philosohy ) is Sooo Peacefull Non violent Docile

Report Says Women Targeted during India's ViolenceA multi-ethnic delegation finds that rape and sexual violence against women are prevalent in the recent surges of unbridled violence between India's Muslims ...
www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/921 - 19k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

10 die in northeast Indian violence | Asian Political News | Find ...10 die in northeast Indian violence from Asian Political News in News provided free by Find Articles.
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2007_Jan_15/ai_n17136288 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Putting anti-Indian violence in context: the case of the Great ...Putting anti-Indian violence in context: the case of the Great Lakes Chippewas of Wisconsin. from American Indian Quarterly, The in Reference provided by ...
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3459/is_200506/ai_n18247709 - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
More results from findarticles.com »

Putting anti-Indian violence in context: the case of the Great ...The Chippewas of Northern Wisconsin continue to experience a peculiar : Encyclopedia.com.
www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-141850161.html - 37k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Putting Anti-Indian Violence in Context. The Case of the Great ...EJ720896 - Putting Anti-Indian Violence in Context. The Case of the Great Lakes Chippewas of Wisconsin.
eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/recordDetail?accno=EJ720896 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

TOLL NOW 25 IN INDIAN VIOLENCE - New York TimesA member of the Andhra Pradesh assembly was shot dead today, bringing the number of people killed in India's election violence to at least 25, ...
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DE0D91138F934A15751C1A962948260 - 44k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

CNN.com - Fresh India violence 'under control' - March 11, 2002Religious violence has again erupted in India's Gujarat state, leaving two Hindu tribesmen dead after a riot broke out in Vadodara.
archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/11/india.violence/index. html?related - 30k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

JSTOR: Fatal Indian Violence in North CarolinaFATAL INDIAN VIOLENCE IN NORTH CAROLINA1 HARRIET J. KUPFERER and JOHN A. HUMPHREY University of North Carolina, Greensboro This paper reports variations in ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-5491(197510)48%3A4%3C236%3AFIVINC%3E2.0.CO%3 B2-1 - Similar pages - Note this

Barbara,1962- Perry and Linda Robyn - Putting Anti-Indian Violence ...However, it has been precisely these demands that have, in turn, initiated anti-Indian violence (Ryÿser 1992, 1993; Grossman 1999). ...
muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_indian_quarterly/v029/29.3perry.html - Similar pages - Note this

Violence against women in India : Violence against women in India ...Feb 20, 2008 ... Violence against women in India - The mention of data in “What’s hot?� section of Sulekha that every hour 18 women.
greatthinker.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/02/violence-against-women.htm - 46k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Hate Army, Hate the politicians, Hate the Moulvi

Hate Hate Hate

Tahmed sahib,

Re 326

Then we need to make a hue and cry against this too. Chowk should not be suppressing people's right to voice their opinion and if they have made a mistake chowkstaff should graciously apologise.

Regards

#322 masadi: you can stop playing the martyr. chowk staff banned me too for the same number of days as you (and i am not even sure if the ban is still on or not - this post will tell me!!). and they banned me for a post that did not violate their guidelines in any reasonable manner. and this is not the first time they have done it (once they banned me for merely thanking another poster for something complimentary he had written!).

instead of playing the martyr like you (or merely changing my nick as arjun shamelessly and routinely does to bypass the ban), i have decided to simply post less frequently to chowk.

after all - it is run by someone using his/her time and resources, and if chowk staff (rightly or wrongly) feel that i (or you or anyone else) is not promoting their objectives (which i assume are as stated), then that is their right.

So - cheers to all chowkies. Like I say in my intro - live long and prosper. :-)

Leadenwinter writes ":) this is almost amusing ...like baiting a bully kuta tied to a post. "

We all know who the kuttas have been in our short history, the people remember them as such, Ayub Kutta, Yahya Kutta, Zia Kutta, and Musharraf, sob.....

:) this is almost amusing ...like baiting a bully kuta tied to a post.

IN the short time period of three or so hours after I put the anti army ilog on, Chowk Staff have again changed how ilogs display on the FP. My new ilog, vanished among the other ilogs and didn't make it to the FP. Only a blind person cannot see what's going on here....I don't care what they do, I will keep busting the US/Pakistan Army tyranny using whatever means necessary on this board. They can keep banning me, I'll find ways around their BS....

Chowk staff are getting ready to ban me again. Today they censored my week or more old post regarding telling Hamid that the toyota celica his daughter dreams of will come at the expense of her lost humanity in US society.

From: chowkstaff
To: masadi
Date: Jul 21, 2008 Mon 12:40 am
Your following post was filtered for objectionable content. For the next 24 hours all your posts will be reviewed before they appear on Chowk. Failure to follow Interact Guidelines may result in your account being suspended.

At the end of the day, the toyata celica that your daughter dreams of will come at the expense of her lost humanity....
---------------


This attitude of the chowk staff is grave injustice. You members should do something about it. They promote Army apologists whose arguments are a puke mix of juvenile propaganda that considers you all fools, and they censore even the most banal of posts by me to ban me. Take action chowk members..

testing

Leadenwinter Army apologist writes " You are merely hell-bent on boot licking, although the egotistical ramblings that you spew are so poor and incoherent that I wonder why you bother at all. "

Please show where I "lick boots" unlike your worship piece of licking the Pakistan Army's boots that it is necessary for Pakistan's survival (after it has raped the country and sucked its blood) is boot-licking of the purest kind. Regarding my "incoherence", unlike you I don't use the confused rhetoric of the West's left to support ultra right wing dictatorships of the military kind- the readers here can see who the incoherent person is. Regarding my posts even the most venomous of my detractors still cannot claim that I am inconsistent in anything, unlike your PMA abomination of jumbled up logic, all over the political spectrum to mutilate history of the US and Europe, and concluding from that that the colonial tool in our nation, the Pakistan Army will somehow slay the colonial dragon and rescue us!

You are a fool with a clear agenda and dishonest spineless nonsense to back it up, rhetoric befitting a high school graduate of the PMA calibre, used to fool the illiterates, who now have matured enough to tell the Army to take its BS and shove it....

Leadenwinter, Army apologist, in no way does any of your dribble prove that the miltary has either i) helped Pakistan in any way- look at our condition ii) is needed for Pakistan's success. Regarding the three or four sources that you are presenting- that you haven't read yourself or you wouldn't have made the blunder of claiming that "feudalism metamorphosed into capitalism"- that wasn't the case, not in Europe and certainly not in the US- I can offer you pages worth of book references that unlike your nonsense of using left wing rhetoric to support ultra right wing dictatorship, is well rooted in historical as well as social phenomena. My advice to you is to give up your PMA upbringing and get a real education. Throwing our references (copy pasted with page numbers) is a dimwitted manner to counter arguments of your opponents...

masadi... it seems pointless.. all I can say is that you yet again by way of your incoherent, non-objective, pro-western brown-nosing show yourself as foolish, petty and basically illiterate.. The CIA yet again proves its incompetence by failing to even vet their lackeys properly.

You in fact have as much chance as a cocker spaniel at "stumping" me because seemingly you know nothing at all and say nothing which is even remotely relevant to my contentions. You are merely hell-bent on boot licking, although the egotistical ramblings that you spew are so poor and incoherent that I wonder why you bother at all.


Here's some reading for you to do.. for a change.. You should read sometimes you know.. it helps ..

-American History and American Democracy Author(s): Andrew C. McLaughlin Source: The American Historical Review, Vol. 20, No. 2, (JA1915), pp. 255-276

-The Old World Background to European Colonial Slavery Author(s): Robin Blackburn Source: The William and Mary Quarterly, Third Series, Vol. 54, No. 1, (JA1997), pp. 65-102

-Feudalism aka American Capitalism by David F. Mind Mined Prods.

-Capitalism, Slavery and Ideology Author(s): Howard Temperley Source: Past and Present, No. 75, (MA1977), pp. 94-118

So now Bilal Musharraf is writing under the nick Leadenwinter....an army upbringing show the signs of a PMA intellectual moron through and through...

In #315 read "the Pakistan Army does not provide relief or stabiltiy of rule, it destabalizes the state, ruins the institution and gets rid of governments for no damn reason, on the other hand whenever the people make claims for what it their right, they get rid of judges and declare emergencies, they start wars on behalf of the foreign powers that ... it was same during the Zia era as has been during Musharraf's BS. "

as

The Pakistan Army does not provide relief or stabiltiy of rule, it destabalizes the state, ruins the institution and gets rid of governments for no damn reason, sells the nation to the highest bidder, soverignity and assets included, and thus crystallizes poverty among the masses whom it does not represent (and resulting problems like a booming population)which has only increased during its near 60 year rule over Pakistan. On the other hand whenever the people make claims for what it their right, they get rid of judges and declare emergencies, they start wars on behalf of the foreign powers that inevitable bring violence and mayhem and not stability to the cities and towns of the country,, it was same during the Zia era as has been during Musharraf's BS.

Since I have been temporarily released from my illegal detention by chowk staff, let me respond to that army apologist Leadenwinter. He writes "My dear masadi.. the US and Europe .. the so called bastions of democracy are in fact culturally, socially and politically seeped in feudalism to such an extent to make waderas from interior Sindh look like socialists... I know .. I deal with these people everyday. Wealth always remains crystallised, and this so called democracy you advocate only goes to revoke that pittance of welfare the Pakistani citizenry may receive by default in terms of stability of governance by the military. The civilian politicians just want to make money and are too illiterate or myopic to do anything else.. being the very feudals you seem to despise .. or do you .. ? more schizophrenia. "

In response to his support of military dictatorship and claims that Pakistan will not survive without the military, which he did using the confused rhetoric of the West's left as well as his illiteracy regarding feudalism/capitalism in the West, he responded with personal BS saying I watch too much tv and am taken over by the West's propaganda regarding democracy. To say the least, this does not constitutie as rebuttal. I have chosen his above quote to show how illterate this person is. Every post he makes shows us that he is trying to use the arguments of those all across the political spectrum (in a completely confused manner) to support dictatorship while totally disrespecting the people of Pakistan in a ultra right wing fashion.

He claims that Europe, the US etc are culturally, politically and socially feudal. Here he shows us that he doesn't know anything about those societies and their history. He offers as proof his "dealing" with those people- he says "I know .. I deal with these people everyday." this again is no proof, it is proof only for bigots who want to see things through the filters of their own stereotypes. He then offers an equally useless banal statement saying "wealth remains crystallized"! In an economy based on industrial production, jobs outside the home define existance unlike reliance on the estate of the feudals. Feudals never had any roots in the US, it was bourgeoisie through and through, with little opposition by the landed aristocracy, the way of the new rich, in Europe with a long feudal history there was struggle between the feudals and the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie sided with the public against the feudals, as a result of which history you see social democracies with the people incorporated to a much greater extent than the capitalist democracy of the US. Wealth doesn't just "crystallize", it gives greater opportunities to access power in socities based on it, using that "crystallized" wealth, the Americans have captured the Pakistan Army- the Pakistan Army does not provide relief or stabiltiy of rule, it destabalizes the state, ruins the institution and gets rid of governments for no damn reason, on the other hand whenever the people make claims for what it their right, they get rid of judges and declare emergencies, they start wars on behalf of the foreign powers that be brining all kinds of voilence and mayhem in the cities, it was same during the Zia era as has been during Musharraf's BS.

My age whatever it might be has no bearing on the message that has totally stumped you. Anyone with half a brain can see the "maturity" and "knowledge" that Leadenwinter the Pakistan Army apologist displays....Like all people having no clue of social evidence he bases his generalizations on his unscientific observations, having no clue of sampling or how fiction is converted to fact in a one institution dominated social structure, he blames the victims the people of nation and their representatives- however defective they might be due to what the Army has done to our state- rather than the devils of the Pakistan Army who have brought us to this level....

testing

The way mediaval middle east barbarism (Starting with stupid called Abraham( was he really there?)) developed, if the Quadianis treat another man than 7th century arab beduine as last Prophet, then they automatically disqualify to be called moslems...
Christians do not disagree with fundamental documents of Jews ( Old Testament...), but still they named their FAITH with different word....Ahmadiyas should follow it...
Otherwise they need to created Muhamediyas, Ahmediays.....


Majumder etc...
Why Indian philosophy is THE best?...every region you will find some prophets like Satya Sai, Basava, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna etc... Their followers live peacefully, without causing bloodshed....Look at Pakiastan....

Re: # 216
Vengat...
That is good for poor people of India and other 3rd world countries...Why you will produce huge number of animals, which you can not raise as human being?

Good:-) and you are right, in shaping short term conflicts or in overcoming them, ideas are much more powerful but not for long term conflicts. Here genes and the evolution of mind is much more powerful.

So even if all of us have wished to remain monkey, we couldn't have remained monkeys.

And so even if all of us turn into Kuranic muslims, we will still evolve into humans, because the other side that drives evolution follows much perfect laws that are much more amazing then world of religions or Islam.

And if someone claims, people don't live in different worlds, please show them those words and ask what those words represent - evil or good. My feeling is you would know the answer pretty quickly.

pinku, I disagree. There are genes, and there are ideas. Ideas are far more powerful, IMHO, than genes in shaping conflicts. And because of very powerful ideas, Muslims and non-Muslims do live in different worlds and follow differnt Gods.

Most people find that a shocking (even unethical, somehow) assertion, but it based on simply understanding how Muslims and non-Muslims think. As proof I simply resubmit all those extracts from the Quran back to you.

Do they represent a great evil against unbelievers? Do they represent mankind's great hope and blessing? The answer depends solely on whether one is a Muslim or not.

You have argued that because of genetic evolution one day Muslims will cease being Muslims. And many Muslims are fully convinced that because of spirtual evolution one day non-Muslims will cease being non-Muslims. I don't see how genetic evolution will make any difference, but if and when that happens, this discussion would be mute. There would be consensus.

Until then, there is no possibility of agreement. Not even the remotest possibility.

#306 Posted by Eklavya,

That is ok, see my post 307 against your earlier post, to know why i say you may be forcing yourself to think in one direction.

They are not "they", they are "us". Muslims, hindus and all divisions are our divisions and assuming that people are stamped on their back (or some other place of their choice) with religion is not good. Genes don't carry religion, but they are guranteed to carry the mechanism of evolution.


Religions are much more weaker compared to evolution of brain than you can realize, but for us mortals 1000 years are very long so we ignore the obvious. For evolution 1000 years is a small bit of time.

re #305 Posted by Eklavya,

Eklavya,

I don't know how you can understand what is "misleading" till you understand what is "leading" here. This is like assuming you are playing safe while all you are doing is not playing at all. It is basically in-action when you see situation is not all that good. Not that bad though, because not everyone will chose that way and things will still evolve. Muslims are not muslims, who knows what 100% muslims means. It isn't the fight between we and them, it is a fight between us. Doesn't matter what you or I do, this will settle only in one way and that is "hmmm during those old days people used to talk about God like this, like this and like this (say for different religions which nobody is attached to in future) and they did it for so many years".

you said:
[[But Islamic understanding is not like that, and what you consider evil, a Muslim would consider God's word, and mankind's blessing. ]]

Ha ha:-), so you mean to say their God is certainly different from God of rest of the world:-) and probably they see world itself differently. Generalizing muslims is a bit more difficult (though you can for a certain percentage) than guranting what Islam says. Definition of Islam relies on one book, so it is easy to say what it is, but an individual muslims is still much more than that, not just a robot following instructions in that book.



More importantly, you are hard pressed to exclude people who are already misled and for that you are even willing to say that those are different worlds with different sets of ideas. In such a case you will never get an idea what misleading means.

What is the correct lead, what is proper objective? You can not have an objective which is evil for half of the world and good for rest of it and still a proper objective. You are forced to think like this because you have already set boundries for your thinking.

Essentially, pinku (so this discussion does not stretch on) I would agree with everything you say if the discussion took place only among non-Muslims. You can't include a Muslim in the discussion and expect to be able to arrive at shared judgements (except through one or both parties deceiving each other, in some form).

GTG. Later, pinku.

laddu, the reverse taqiyya you speak of is quite possible, and may be widespread in the Muslim world, where many many kafirs probably live safely, pretending to be sufis.

But that's not the case for most sufis, even here on chowk, among such sufis as ts bhai, salim bro, naqsh sahib, and echo dada (who all differ even among themselves).

--------------

pinku, my judgement is immaterial. It is like yours, based on our own limited, human, understanding. With that limited, human, understanding, you(or I, or anyone who relies on his or her own, limited, understanding) may find all that text very evil.

But Islamic understanding is not like that, and what you consider evil, a Muslim would consider God's word, and mankind's blessing.

No point fighting over that difference. Let's just accept it, and live in knowledge of that difference. So long as we are not led to believe (sufi style) all that text means anything other than what it clearly says, everyone (Muslims and non-Muslims) should be ok.

IMHO, it is the misleading part that is evil from *both* (radically different) perspectives - yours and Islamic. My argument has been that that effort to mislead is always evil, although someones we tend to 'protect' and justify efforts to mislead others when these efforts help propagate whatever we believe in.

re #300 Posted by Eklavya ,

Eklavya,

You have a grand illusion it seems. The idea of good and bad (deception/evil) is much older than the idea of muslims and non-muslims.

Forget about muslims if you are too fond of Islam and think how an intelligent person who doesn't know what muslim/Islam means say before 1 AD will feel about such verses. It is kind of self deception when you try to color things to make your self ignore reason.

When we try to understand what some thing is or when we want to give judgement on something, the first thing we will do is to get an un-biased person and if you so heavily depend on muslim or non-muslim division to think about something, you can hardly ever make a correct judgement, for you all is ok and not ok at the same time depending on the subject and not on the object.

Don't assume that reasoning or rationality is so surreal, it is not perfect but to make it look like something random is to fool your self, you wouldn't need a brain in that case.

Your way of confusing things like this and giving them arbitrary acceptance is self deception at least or deception if you mean to deceive others.

you wrote:
[[To return to the excerpts you provided, you can embrace those words as Godly or you can reject them as devilish, depending upon the light (or darkness) within you.]]

This itself is a deception, you compared rejection with darkness in brackets. Was it intentional??


How do you define deceit or deception?

What is God's point of view??? Who told you about it???


Seems you think good and bad are arbitrary???
Well that is not that case. Good and bad are not arbitrary and there is no God's point of view except this world itself. Humanity's ultimate objective can't allow anger against anyone and the God/prophet of these verses shows anger against those who are not abiding him.

But before we can talk further first tell me what is your idea of God?? What is your idea of objective of the whole humanity?

I am again posting one of the verses so that you see the content, which you ignore very easily.

002.014
Y: When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."
P: And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
S: And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

The existence of Type 1 Kafir-Sufis clearly does not the requirement of "Loving Prophet" - it jettisons Prophet and talks mainly about "Loving Allah".
Prophet is relegated to just a post man who was useful for the delivery of message and once the message is delivered his utility ends!!!
Of course, You do not "Love Postman". Do you?

There are two types of Sufis-

1. The clearly Kafir-Sufis, most of the time protected and surrounded by kafirs, who do not care about Sunnat even publically.

2. The muslim sounding Munafique-Sufis, most of the time surrounded by momeens, who sometimes have to make pronouncements about Sunnat in a strategy called reverse-taquiyya. Nonetheless, Sunnis still see through this reverse-taquiyya and rightly call them mushriques.

India now houses Sufis of type 1 who do not have to worry about the muslims in order to be on the path of Fanaa. Mullahs have already declared under Fatwa that muslims should not go to the mazars of these sufis and pray without any effect because it does not effect the kafir bhaktas who come to the mazar and keep the sufi shrine well maintained.

Type 2 Sufis are under constant threat by mullah Islam and barely thrive independently. They constantly look towards the Indian-Sufis and realize that they are under stranglehold of Sunni Mullahs in Pakistan.

Re: # 298

"a Muslim is proud to be a slave of Allah, (and in case of sufis, a slave of Prophet Muhammad), .."

This is incorrect.

For a Sunni Mullah , his Hadith remain the point of difference between Type 1 and himself .
For a Sunni Mullah even Allah is a slave of Mohammad and Mohammad is almost (if not superior) to Allah. But for Type 1 Sufi, Mohammad is just a postman and Allah and his one-ness is the only message that is important.

Remember, even Muhammad's young bride Aisha once said sarcastically on Muhammad's revelations "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires"!!

Type 1 just has almost no use for Mohammad. Type 1 also uses his own methods of praying and worship (Sadhana) that are not to be found in Sunnah!!

pinku, that's the old problem of totally different mindsets of Muslims and non-Muslims. Non-Muslims would obviously find all that very hateful toward unbelievers but then that's why they are non-Muslims.

But deceipt and deception are wrong from both humanistic and God's points of view. Those who apply deceipt against Muslims (mirzais) and those who apply it against non-Muslims (sufis) are wrong.

To return to the excerpts you provided, you can embrace those words as Godly or you can reject them as devilish, depending upon the light (or darkness) within you. That's your choice. But to lead you into all that through deception, THAT's real evil. No God or man would want that.

ref
#298 Posted by Eklavya
and #296 Posted by Eklavya

Eklavya,

[[Hatred would be promising one thing and delivering another - as in Mirzaism and sufism.]]

How did you come to this definition of hatred?


[[And tahir bhai, there is no hatred in Islam.]]

Better try to define it here what hatred is then you can read Kuran to know whther Islam has hatred or not?

Don't be too quick to please people.



Here are the first few verses of Kuran (and people say that Kuran is less threatning in the beginning when Muhammad had less military power):

For those who say it doesn't have contradiction, the first thing they can see is that while Allaha should have been talking all of the time as every verse is supposed to be revealed by Allaha and not Muhammad, you will see Muhammad speaking in many of them. When He refers to Allaha as "thee".

check verse 002.014 and you will see how God of Kuran is disturbed or teased by common people (Or how Muhammad was disturned that because of his power and sword people were wiling to accept his words in front of him but not when he was not present).



Read Kuran and you will get to know how God speaks, you will have lot of fun indeed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

001.001
Y: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
P: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
S: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.002
Y: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
P: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
S: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

001.003
Y: Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
P: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
S: The Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.004
Y: Master of the Day of Judgment.
P: Master of the Day of Judgment,
S: Master of the Day of Judgment.

001.005
Y: Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
P: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
S: Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

001.006
Y: Show us the straight way,
P: Show us the straight path,
S: Keep us on the right path.

001.007
Y: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
P: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
S: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

Chapter 2:

AL-BAQARA (THE COW)
Total Verses: 286 Revealed At: MADINA


-------------------------------------------------------------------- --------

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

002.001
Y: A.L.M.
P: Alif. Lam. Mim.
S: Alif Lam Mim.

002.002
Y: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
P: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
S: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

002.003
Y: Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
P: Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
S: Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

002.004
Y: And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
P: And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
S: And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

002.005
Y: They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
P: These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
S: These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

002.006
Y: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
P: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
S: Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

002.007
Y: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
P: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
S: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

002.008
Y: Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
P: And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
S: And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

002.009
Y: Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
P: They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
S: They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

002.010
Y: In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
P: In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
S: There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they

002.011
Y: When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
P: And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
S: And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.

002.012
Y: Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
P: Are not they indeed the mischief-makers? But they perceive not.
S: Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

002.013
Y: When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
P: And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe? are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.
S: And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.

002.014
Y: When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."
P: And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
S: And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

guru ji, true, a Muslim is proud to be a slave of Allah, (and in case of sufis, a slave of Prophet Muhammad), but that is a straightforward, crystal-clear, opening statement of Islam. There is no hatred in it.

Hatred would be promising one thing and delivering another - as in Mirzaism and sufism.

Koran is the manual for deceipt and enslavement of not just present gnerations but many many coming ones. It's high time we get rid of this bookish religion.

tahir bhai, thanks. I was merely guessing based on what one hears mirzais say all the time, but that Jewish revenge may well be a real attempt.

And tahir bhai, there is no hatred in Islam. Islam makes a very clear set of basic arguments, which one can accept or reject. There are no two ways about it - like 'half accept' or 'half reject.'

The 'hatred' lies exclusively within deceptive doctrines. The underlying argument behind these human deceptions is - You (tahir, ek, or all others) are so damn evil that I will actively deceive you in order to force you to change your path.

Some incredible amount of totally undeseved self-righteousness these deceivers possess!

Re: # 294 Aik Love Ya

Do read Dr. Shabbir Ahmed's HASHISH FROM QADIAN; you could download it for free. And also:

AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT--THE BRITISH-JEWISH CONNECTIONS by Bashir Ahmad (free download!)

And hey Stutter and New York Axeman, why don't you two also read these to receive horizon-widening education!

Except for these characters posing as 'bhagwans' on ChowQ, I have no hatred for all those who live near the Indus.

Regards.

tahir, I know very little about Jews. But I can see the Hindu elements that Mirzaism incorporated towards its goals.

Could Mirzaism also be a 'revenge' of Jewry against Islam? May be. Someone should investigate that. We do knowf or sure that the British promoted some Punjabis in their anti-Islamic effort.

Re: # 291 Aik Love Ya
"chutzpah of Mirzais"

Chutz-Pah must offend the Q-cumbers more than my interacts as THIS word sounds abusive to Pakistanis (and Indians I suppose)! AND it has Hebrew origins which implies that you're rubbing in that Israel-connection thing!

Naughty boy, you could've said: insolence, audacity, impertinence.

But we have to give it you Mirzais, the way you have wrapped non-Muslims around your fingers, playing your political games. One genuinely needs to congratulate all you Mirzais, whatever shape or form you present yourself in, to the non-Muslim world. :)

sattar bhai, talking of moving on, one is simply amazed by the breathtaking chutzpah of Mirzais.

Here are people who tell Muslims, to latter's faces, that if Muslims follow the religion of Prophet Muhammad on their own, and refuse to submit to the Punjabi prophetry of Mirza sahib, Muslims are living in a state of Jahaliya, and their status is essentially no more than that of pre-Islamic Jahils in Islam!

Wow, is the least one can say.

If that is what you have in mind for Muslims, only you know what you have in mind for the rest of us real idolators, ignorant and loving toward you though we might be! :)

"Your ullema do not own Islam. And Ahmadis are well within their rights to consider themselves Muslims. The question now is … what are you going to do about it?"

Why this fetish to be slave of Arabs? Why hold on to Pascal when the world has moved to Small Talk? There is even more money in being a problem solver (algorithm) who ca pick up any language or paradigm on fly.

Re: # 279 Stuuter-2
Here comes the great mouthpiece of Q-thought--Stutter--who was foretold by a Greek goddess that MGAQ will slide down from 'akaash' with a minor bang in Qadiyan!

"what are you going to do about it?"

We will continue to expose your falsehoods and deception in worshipping MGAQ. You think it is 'uncool' to do that? Wait till you get to the depths of the hottest place in the universe....

Keep spewing out your fraudulent claims, no Hindu here will become a Q-cumber unless he gives in to your Dollars-and-Chics clearance sale.

Rumi and Ibn al-Arabi, is this all you can muster Stutter?

Western and US imperialism is just a child compared to Arabic one? Arabic one has caused people become fatalistic and looking towards the "world here-after." This has made people dead man walking and breathing. Poor Abduls and Salmas with book (koran) in hand are being taken the edge of the cliff.

Throw away book. Write your own book using the consciousness as paper and ..

Second hand word cannot lead to knowledge and wisdom. Be childlike.

http://66.139.75.46/Hindi/Amrit%20Dwar/amrit_dwar_01.mp3

Re: # 282 who is swami Nanda? I know good looking woman called Nanda who used to run around trees in the garden and some Dhar Mendhar running after her.

Re: # 283 which audio? would you please sumerize what the speaker is saying. Would you guess who is the speaker.

Guru maha dev

I listened to the audio posted by you .By god i thaught i was listening to Moulana ISRAR if not Moudoodi .Listen yo Israr atleast and all the deductive logic used by both of themis the same ,In fact Dr Naiks reparte is also same For example If some one says darkness they all say dont say darkness say ABSENCE of light,So on,, you can go lecturing endlessly

Re: # 277
Guru

"GOI should make 100% reservation in education, jobs and owning land to Dharmic/Indic people and all these god fearing poor Abduls and Salmas wil revert back to Dharma, and thus saved.'

What is Dharmic ..is it not MUCH closer to Islam than polytheism idolatory And Icon worshipping.You want to be proudly Idollator .Nothing wrong with that for Muslim.

But listen to Swami Viveka Nanda what he says .He says idollatory is only INFANCY of hinduism untill he /she mature to pray IDOLLLESSLY . that is in mind and imaginatinof endless immeasureable all knowing supreme being .That again what muslim believes about god Just look up the 100 more or more than hundred names of Allah and ask there meaning .God is abstract but u got to be muslim to pray without assistence of image

Btw does anyone have any idea how old masadi is ?
Out of curiousity..

From the gist of the rambling nonsense below in #273 the West and the US according to masadi and his acolytes, are intrinsically wrong in every regard being imperialists and having machinated against the interests of Pakistan etc etc.. through from the days of the British colonies to recently under US unilateral aggression and their naked imperialism.

His dedication to democracy seems rather schizophrenic. How can it be that the ideology of his enemy is so sacrosanct to him?

Perhaps it is because he himself in fact represents the interests of Western imperialism...

Or perhaps its because he doesn't really know what he's talking about and believes that if he makes enough meaningless noise someone might pay attention to him .. (it seems to have worked in the case of majumdar .. whom I think should be christened "Igor".

There are no democracies in the World which are not capitalist with perhaps the exception of Cuba which too is going that way.

Masadi watches too much TV it seems. The democracy of American PR and the lifestyle advertising agitprop which is beamed across the World ...( in so far as according rights and benefits to citizens over the interests of the capitalist and industry) does not exist and has not ever existed nor shall ever exist on planet earth.

To quote him..

"In other words, Pakistan should remain a feudal state with military dictators incorporting themselves with the feudals to dictate to the people as if they were their slaves! Fantastic recommendation. This person is an ignoramus. Without overthrowing the feudals the bourgeoisie revolution can never occur, it is simply not possible and didn't occur in Europe and certainly not in the US where a violent civil war ended all remants of feudalism that wanted to establish itself. Democracy has nothing to do with such economic systems of tyranny".

This rambling only goes to show you know nothing about the US or Europe and simply believe blindly in their advertising.

My dear masadi.. the US and Europe .. the so called bastions of democracy are in fact culturally, socially and politically seeped in feudalism to such an extent to make waderas from interior Sindh look like socialists... I know .. I deal with these people everyday. Wealth always remains crystallised, and this so called democracy you advocate only goes to revoke that pittance of welfare the Pakistani citizenry may receive by default in terms of stability of governance by the military. The civilian politicians just want to make money and are too illiterate or myopic to do anything else.. being the very feudals you seem to despise .. or do you .. ? more schizophrenia.

My low regard as you put it of civilians as mostly just petty profiteers, illiterate peasants, traitors and mullahs is not a statement of disputable opinion but simple fact.. look around you.

I nevertheless am not suggesting that Pakistan is not fit for democracy .. For whatever loyalties I have for Pakistan .. I'm merely suggesting that democracy is not fit for Pakistan. ... It most certainly is not what it appears to be.

Urstruly (#267),

The “last prophet� notion is a misplaced one, negated by Quran, ahadith, and some well-respected scholars of Islam (Shah Waliullah, Ibne Arabi, Jalal Uddin Room, et al). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) clearly foretold appearance of a prophet among Muslims in the latter days.

Your ullema do not own Islam. And Ahmadis are well within their rights to consider themselves Muslims. The question now is … what are you going to do about it?

Twisting arms to enforce your faith is a sign of a defeatist outlook; you’ll continue to lose ... and that is uncool. Learn from kaal bhai who continues to hang on to mispalced notions from the past and fails to move on (grin) ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/07/20/do2001.xml

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

most of these generated by you! You are the agent provocateur here

Hey everyone, remember post #4?

"Another useless article guaranteed to generate 10,000 fake clicks and 900 interacts!"

Re: # 269 gooN Ru

Wht don't you actually perish in your rage; when will you do it?

Anxiously awaiting your departure....

Posting on Masadi sahib's behalf:

Army apologist Leadenwinter writes "masadi & co & the concerned public Anyone who imagines that Pakistan can survive in any form without the military is utterly disconnected with reality to the extent of being delusional or malicious. "

WE have heard these same statements from every damn dictator that has sucked on the blood of the nation. Pakistan khatray mey hai, we will cease to be without the military so the military has to step in and do away with the legitmate government of the people and its demands. No longer do the people buy this India expanding, religion touting, barbarism of the Pakistan Army. Those in touch with "reality" know that the Pakistan Army has brought us to the condition we find ourselves in today and that is that the nation has ceased to be because the military on the payroll of the Americans for a good portion of our 60 year history has kept us in a colonized state.

Then he writes "(These first two groups are victims are of advertising and the last group consists of out local politicians and the CIA and the likes of masadi (who I'm sure is paid by some party adverse to national interests)."

I am on nobody's payroll, on the contrary those you support have been upon their own admission and the admission of their paymasters on the payroll of the Americans to whom they sold the soverignity of this nation without firing a single shot upon a phone call from Powell/Armitage...

Then he writes "Capitalist democracy is an intrinsically Western and European idea, and even most Western democracies did not extend franchise to the more disaffected and "ideologically challenged" elements of their citizenry until they were sure that they posed no challenge to the over-arching status-quo of the economy in question. "

There is nothing "capitalist" about democracy. Capitalism works against democracy by making the state a tool (or partner) with the corporatized economy to impoverish and extract surplus from the masses and the nation that the people are partners in. Democracy makes them a partner in the power structure if properly implemented through public institutions, when circumscribed by wealth, it gets translated into an establismentized "democracy" of the kind the Pakistan Army/US is pushing and the kind that is practiced to deceive the people in the US. There is nothing Western or Capitalist about incorporating the people into decision that affect their lives. Like I have busted your bs before, a dictatorship of the military sort as seen in Pakistan and as our history has amply revealed is more susceptible to outside influence and selling our soverignty than a people's democracy.

Then he writes "Prior to this the church and the aristocracy through sheer brute force built and held areas of land and populations as "nations" . The integrity of the nation is and remains integrally and implicitly sacrosanct and the democracy came later in phases as Western feudalism metamorphosed into capitalism."

Then he writes " Pakistan simply does not have this kind of capital. We are by no means a nation and there's no disputing that. Nor do we have the institutional integrity or indeed infra-structure (social or otherwise) to sustain a democracy. "

In other words, Pakistan should remain a feudal state with military dictators incorporting themselves with the feudals to dictate to the people as if they were their slaves! Fantastic recommendation. This person is an ignoramus. Without overthrowing the feudals the bourgeoisie revolution can never occur, it is simply not possible and didn't occur in Europe and certainly not in the US where a violent civil war ended all remants of feudalism that wanted to establish itself. Democracy has nothing to do with such economic systems of tyranny. We do not need to either maintain feudalism or to have an unchecked bourgeoisie revolution that oppresses the masses and we certainly do not need to have the kingship of the Pakistan Army.

The he writes "Pakistan's aspirations to democracy are like a caveman longing to buy a fighter jet and America's promotion of democracy is like selling fighter jets to cavemen because they know that nothing will come of the purchase except their own profit."

Nonsense, the people of Pakistan are not cavement even though the military dictators due to their policies want to convert them into hunter gatheres because they have looted the wealth of the state. The US does not push "democracy" in third world nations except as slogans, they support dictators of the Pakistan Army, work through them and have been using and working through them for almost all of our history, that was the purpose of the British creating Pakistan and then handing the mantle of this colonized, dependant on externals for defense with a simmering wound on its northern borders, to the Americans to use as a whore during the Cold War- not with the democratic governments of Pakistan but with the military dictators

Then he writes "There is no successful democracy is the World, which allows the public to decide as to any other issue other than the face of the dictator who shall rule them for the next term. This is true of every Western democracy which each have the institutional and social capital behind them to allow for this capricious little throw of the dice to decide the temporal direction of their nation....Democracy is only good for for this, not for nation building and not for the shaping of the very institutions that allow democracy to exist."


Only a PMA graduate with little to no knowledge of world affairs and of its history and the struggle of the people generalizes in this fashion. A lot of gains have been made by people struggling for their rights in America, in Europe and even in this nation and every struggle that produces these results pushed the nation so concerned towards "democracy" and away from the mere slogans of it. Dictatorships don't last because the people will not after a while stand by dictation. It is for this reason that the Americans even though they wish to operate under dictators push for circumscribed democracy after a while, the famous Pakistan Army/US "stop gap" forumula, but now the people are beginning to understand this BS and will not stand for it. The days of Army dictatorship and of Army apologists are over in Pakistan and after killing our nation, it will yet live again, by getting rid of these thugs.

Then he writes "These have to come from higher ideals such as patriotism and pride in nationhood and the concerted efforts of the powerful to the common end .. all things which Pakistanis and indeed Muslims can never achieve.The military may be incompetent bastards to a man.. but its all Pakistan has to show for itself in terms of institutional capital. Its actually all we have .. as the civilians are "mostly" just petty profiteers, illiterate peasants, traitors and mullahs. (emphasis on mostly for those who might get offended)"

What should one think of his so-called "left rhetoric" when he holds the people of this nation in such low regard, this is the hallmark of the Pakistan Army and its apologists they consider themselves a breed apart and even though they are illiterate and are fools themselves with a high school education (PMA), they think that the people of this nation who are well aware of their environment and the political climate are fools. Fool, if patriotism etc are higher ideals and if democracy has been used as slogan in those Western countries why not those "higher ideals"- and note this, the so called better developed public of those western nations are morons compared to the average Pakistani who has been made self and class conscious because of circumstance.


Then he writes "If the military loses power, Pakistan will cease to be. If Iran is to be invaded and India's economy is to be checked Pakistan must destabilise. As I have maintained before.. the US instigated these previous elections in a bid to destabilise.. since then this is the third time Obama brought up the issue of invasion."

Yeah yeah we have heard all this before from Ayub, from Yahya, from Zia and from Musharraf and now from this apologist of the Army. Pakistan ceased to be when the Army attained power and sold us to their highest paymaster and became the whore of the West. It came to be again after ZAB formed the constitution, only to be killed by that sob Zia. Pakistan is dead but the lawyers movement and other assorted movements for democracy are working hard to bring it back to life, the day that it does come back to life, will be when this nation's ghadar Army ceases to be and a new Army takes shape. Till then let it work with the Americans and Obama to break up Pakistan, like it did in Bangladesh, the people of Pakistan, our brave people will rise to the occassion and reclaim their nation and their souls that this miserable institution has taken away from them, at the point of the gun.....,

Regards

PS: Masadi sahib has not been released from detention even after 3+ days when the detention was supposed to be for 24 hours.

Re: # 267 Truly

Brother, may I correct you when you say "He is the last Prophet of God, according to HIS teachings"?

It was primarily God's Word that supported the foundation of THIS claim in 33:40 and which the Q-cumbers have twisted in THEIR favour; thanks to the British Crown's fullest support!

Re: # 262 GooN Ru
"Aren't you Islamists devillish APEs?"

A case of the kettle calling the pot black!

Perish in your rage Islam-hater; we love the religion created for all mankind by the One God!

The spirituality/Dharma/god exists but the religion never existed and never will. There is nothing like religions, it is only gathering of mentally sick.

"He is the last Prophet of God, according to his teachings. Therefore, Muslims have absolutely no problem a person calling himself a prophet as long as he does not call himself Muslim and his religion Islam."

Mo was not only the last prophet but the last follower of the religion which he founded in the cave for the cave dwellers of the time he was in the cave. The religion died the moment he steped out of the cave.

So, you must not call yourself Muslim and your religion Islam or whatever Mo called his legion in that cave of 7th century Arabia.

So the Qadianis are the ones who are terrorists? Taking notes now, thanks, Urstruly, for setting things right.

All the Quadiani problems are because of their intolerence and disrespect of the other people's religion. First of they shouldn't be calling themselves Muslims and their religion as Islam because Islam is that religion which prophet Mohammad bin Abdullah (pbuh) of Arabia taught to the people of his time. He is the last Prophet of God, according to his teachings. Therefore, Muslims have absolutely no problem a person calling himself a prophet as long as he does not call himself Muslim and his religion Islam. Because of this intolerant behavior of Quadianis towards Muslims, the later feel terrorized by a minority who constatntly targets their beleif system. Please live and let live. You people shouldn't be ashamed of calling yourselves Quadiani, and nothing but Quadianis.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Till you shed Islam aka Arab Imperialism, you will not evolve to human from APE, who sucks innocent and poor's blood.

De-Islamization is same as De_Arabization and De-Westernization.

Islam was colonization by Arabs. Neo-colization means, Islamization of the countries like Bakistan aka BS and BD, with Arabized (Arabized Pakistani Elite ie APE) and anglophine elites (Anglophile Pakistani Elite ie also APE) of the enslaved society, which sends poor Abduls to fight wars in Afghanistan, firmly licking Anglo rear.

Even the so called naxals are like Islamists. Their arms are funded by the western church. The Purulia arms drop among countless others was carried out by UK spooks for the naxals and the thugs of the north-east India. ISI is british creation. Bakistan (BS) and BD are laundas of the angloes.

BD genocide did not get a showing on massive Anglo media because BS was illegitimate child of Angloes.

But Allaha is just and he will send youu the right karma effects. India should seal PakJabi border so that these vemins do not escape the hell-fire.

Why was I flagged I wonder? Nothing I said was unjustified or offensive .. Is it because even chowk.com has been hijacked by fundamentalists

Tahir,

Why do you think Islam is not Arab imperialism?

Imposition of language
School Subject check
Regional Language such as Punjabi & Sindhi declining check

Political Power in Arabic land
For mediation run to Arab land check
Prefered place for exile by politicoes check

Internalizing the lie of superiority of Arabs check


Neo-Colonization by Islamization by Angloes to keep masses away from Science and Technology and keping them backward looking. Neo Colonized Islamic country is like car which has only reverse gear. Even the GCCs are colonized by large chunk of ruling Sheikhs capital is in Angloes hands. They squiz on shekh's balls to do punga with Saddam so that Saddam has to attack Kuwait which leads to first gulf war. Saddam, supposedly a leftist Bathist is also neocolonized and keeps himself exiled in Egypt when in trouble which is similar to being in DC. Except Syria all of you Islmists at the core are Anglo agents.

Do you agree Tahir? Your islamist rage you can afford to unleash o poor Hindu Haris in pakistan and with RDX and IEDs in Indian Hindu temples and IIScs.

You are thoroughly colonized. Your founder retires in UK and is thoroughly banged in rear for 8 years by Angloes. Never goes to jail..in fact no one goes for Pakistan Revolution. All this dracula leader of your has to do is raise the slogann "Islam Khatren Main Hain! Por people get screwed royally. All your leaders are decided in London, Riyadh. DC and Dubai. Aren't you Islamists devillish APEs?

Re: # 260 Urchin
"especially pigs..."

Don't confuse cows with pigs!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Pathetic GooN-Ru, non-stop cutter-paster, wordless mumbler, motionless octopus , soul-less GooN-Ru....

Re: # 253 GooN Ru

"Massive De-Islamization is the only solution."

But the solution is: massive dose of Islam to the world's sick animals.

Re: # 252 GooN Ru
"If I use umbrella to cover myself to reach to my car I need to close the umbrella when I am inside the car."

You're probably dancing naked under Rehanna's UMBRELLA! In that case, keep it opened....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#250

masadi & co & the concerned public

Anyone who imagines that Pakistan can survive in any form without the military is utterly disconnected with reality to the extent of being delusional or malicious.

I think these people fall into 3 camps. They are those who:

1) Do not rightly understand what democracy actually is.
2) Are mere methodists and cargo-cultists, and imagine that just the simple addition of democracy will somehow solve their problems.
3) Are genuinely malicious and have a vested interest in promoting democracy to the perceived end of enhancing their personal power and wealth.

(These first two groups are victims are of advertising and the last group consists of out local politicians and the CIA and the likes of masadi (who I'm sure is paid by some party adverse to national interests).

Capitalist democracy is an intrinsically Western and European idea, and even most Western democracies did not extend franchise to the more disaffected and "ideologically challenged" elements of their citizenry until they were sure that they posed no challenge to the over-arching status-quo of the economy in question.

Prior to this the church and the aristocracy through sheer brute force built and held areas of land and populations as "nations" . The integrity of the nation is and remains integrally and implicitly sacrosanct and the democracy came later in phases as Western feudalism metamorphosed into capitalism.

Pakistan simply does not have this kind of capital. We are by no means a nation and there's no disputing that. Nor do we have the institutional integrity or indeed infra-structure (social or otherwise) to sustain a democracy.

Pakistan's aspirations to democracy are like a caveman longing to buy a fighter jet and America's promotion of democracy is like selling fighter jets to cavemen because they know that nothing will come of the purchase except their own profit.

There is no successful democracy is the World, which allows the public to decide as to any other issue other than the face of the dictator who shall rule them for the next term. This is true of every Western democracy which each have the institutional and social capital behind them to allow for this capricious little throw of the dice to decide the temporal direction of their nation....Democracy is only good for for this, not for nation building and not for the shaping of the very institutions that allow democracy to exist.

These have to come from higher ideals such as patriotism and pride in nationhood and the concerted efforts of the powerful to the common end .. all things which Pakistanis and indeed Muslims can never achieve.

The military may be incompetent bastards to a man.. but its all Pakistan has to show for itself in terms of institutional capital. Its actually all we have .. as the civilians are "mostly" just petty profiteers, illiterate peasants, traitors and mullahs. (emphasis on mostly for those who might get offended)

If the military loses power, Pakistan will cease to be. If Iran is to be invaded and India's economy is to be checked Pakistan must destabilise. As I have maintained before.. the US instigated these previous elections in a bid to destabilise.. since then this is the third time Obama brought up the issue of invasion.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2182955.e ce

De-Islamization is same as De_Arabization and De-Westernization.

Islam was colonization by Arabs. Neo colization means Islamization with Arabized and westernized elites of the society firmly licking western rear.

Even the so called naxals are like Islamists. Their arms are funded by the western church. The Purulia arms drop among countless others was carried out by UK spooks for the naxals and the thugs of the north-east India. ISI is british creation. Bakistan (BS) and BD are munnas of the angloes.

BD massacre did not get showing on massive media of the west is because BS was illegitimate child of the Aunt.

ComRandi,

"Take the Army out of our affairs not only will the above effects of their rule vanish, the "Islam khatray me hai" excuse they use and the buildup of India as uber enemy will vanish as well. "

Taking the Army out our affairs is saying the state is non-Islamic. In Islam which is political from its DNA, the state needs to be Islamic. The state remains Islamic if it is controlled by the Army. Even to become secular Islmic countries need to make the Army own the state, eg, Turkey and Egypt.

Massive De-Islamization is the only solution.

"Quran is misinterpreted by many. "

If Quran is perfect and word of God why it gets misinterpreted? Do people say the same about Geeta, Dhamma Shastras, Jain Tirthankar's saying and writing.

For misinterpretation happens because humans have evolved. If I use umbrella to cover myself to reach to my car I need to close the umbrella when I am inside the car.

Closing the Koran in these times and especially in the subcontinent is a duty for the good of humanity.

majumdar ji,

why are you posting on behalf of masadi??

Posting on Masadi sahib's behalf:

Leadenwinter writes "Perhaps if Pakistani passports put more emphasis on being "Pakistani" than on being Muslim .. we wouldn't have five or so separatist movements, droves of terrorists and traitors on our Northern borders, a failing economy, unreconcilable poverty and the general needless persecution of anybody who isn't a wahabi/deobandi/taliban/hijabi/beardy or whatever the fashionable faith is these days.

These are the effects of Pakistan Army meddling into the affairs of the state, not the effect of what is written on a passport. Take the Army out of our affairs not only will the above effects of their rule vanish, the "Islam khatray me hai" excuse they use and the buildup of India as uber enemy will vanish as well. We expect Army apologists like leadenwinter to hide and mask the true causes and just like the Americans to concentrate on non issues that will in the long run escalate and amplify the problems rather than solve them

Laddu writes ""yasallunaa is synonymous with yabudun which also signifies glorification of God. "

Laddu a piece of advice for you and Hindu bigots of your calibre, don't try to "teach" Islam to Muslims and that also in your contrived authoritative manner. Yasallu and Yabudun are two different things. The war yasallu is not only used in the Quran for the prophet (sending blessings) it is used in similar manner for all believers as well. Are you saying that God worships all believers as well? Of course this is not the case but since dimwits like you want to invent straw men, ignore the explicit verses that are pure monotheism- unlike the nonsense of the Trinity in Christianity or race worship as in Judaism, you want to show that the Quran recommends worship of man. Not so, the word does not signify worship except as a derivitive meaning used in particular context with God alone. So tell Ali Sina, the fool whose words you reproduce that he makes a damn fool of himself when he invents nonsense of this calibre....

Regards

we v got one confused laddu here!

Re: # 246

hurricane bhai,

Sab Ishwara ki Kripa hai bahi- aapka kaise hai ?

Laddu bhai,

speaking of health, I've just written an iLog about the dangers of not reading the ingredients list on indian snack mixes. You can read it here: http://chowk.com/ilogs/67844/47796

laddu bhai,

how are you? Long time no speak.

How's health? Biwi bacchay?

How's the bile against muslims?

all healthy I hope.

Whenever the word assalaat occurs, it means ritualized prayer, which an inferior i.e. a human offers to God. For example, one may refer to Cow, II: 3, 276, or Women, IV: 161. Therefore, it means worship and "yasallunaa is synonymous with yabudun which also signifies glorification of God. Thus the verse XXXIII: 56 means that Allah and His angels worship Muhammad and so must do the Muslims, but with a worthy salutation. This extraordinary emphasis in relation to Muhammad is the source of the general Muslim attitude, which I described earlier as:

"BA KHUDA DIWANA BASHAD BA MUHAMMAD HOSHIYAR"

This is absolutely incredible! In all other religions, it is man who worships God but in Islam, it is God who worships man (Muhammad). Yet the Muslims call themselves monotheists! They are surely the worst idolaters on earth.

However, the faithful have found ways of allotting entirely different meaning to the words as suggested by their natural sense, and have, thus, sought refuge behind a mighty wall of self-deception with the help of far-fetched interpretations to prop up their faith, which cannot stand up to the advancing forces of reason. Therefore, they are quick to charge their critics with blasphemy, and are reluctant to accept that Islam is Muhammadanism, and not a monotheistic religion.

Since it is the practice that signifies the value of a principle, I must refer to the following facts to prove the veracity of the meaning of the verse under discussion:

1. Is it not true that praising Muhammad is an integral part of their daily prayers?

2. Haven't the Muslims perfected a form of Muhammad- worship known as "DAROOD?" "MAJLIS-E-DAROOD" which has become a routine affair and is considered the chief source of salvation.

3. All Muslim nations have developed a hymnal form of poetry called "NATIYAKALAAM," exclusively dedicated to the most extravagant adoration of Muhammad.

4. QWAALI is yet another musical mode of worshipping Muhammad. It is highly popular among the SUFIS and their followers.

5. SHAHADA, which is the basic confession for every Muslim, includes the name of Muhammad with that of Allah. In the strict Koranic terminology, it is known as SHIRK i.e. associating someone else with Allah. This is the most dreadful sin because:

"Allah forgives not that anyone should be associated with Him (Allah); less than that He forgives to whomsoever He will. Whoso associate with Allah anything, has gone astray into manifest error." (Women, IV: 115)

The Muslims must realize that the original Koranic principle is:

"Allah is the absolute, Owner of praise."
(The Cow, II: 267)

The Prophet Muhammad achieved this ascendancy over Allah through his doctrine of guidance, which is contained in the Cow, II: 1:

"That is the Book (Koran), wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the righteous, who believe in the Unseen, and perform the prayer, and expend of that We (Allah) have provided: who believe in what has been sent down ( i .e. Koran ) to thee ( Muhammad ) and what has been sent down before thee, and have faith in the Hereafter (the Day of Judgement): those are upon guidance from their Lord; those are the ones who prosper."

In this context the key-word is MUTTAQI, which has been translated as Godfearing, pious, those who are afraid of loss" etc. However, in general, it is accepted to mean "righteous." Thus, the Koran guides the righteous only. It is very strange, indeed, because the righteous person is the one, who is already guided by his own good nature. Again, these verses declare that the righteous are those who believe in the Koran and its mythology such as believing in the Unseen and the Day of Judgement, and also offer prayers etc. without raising any question at all. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad banished reasoning from the kingdom of faith, making fanaticism the foundation of his creed.

Having denounced the rational enquiry into matters concerning faith, it was not difficult for Muhammad to raise himself as the greatest Idol of all times. Just see how he did it. He declared:

"You (the believers) have had a good example in
God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and
the Last Day .." (The Confederates, XXXIII: 20)

This is how the Prophet appointed himself as the Model of Behaviour for all his followers, who were required to walk, talk, eat, drink, think, dress and physically look like him. He succeeded in this attempt because he further added through the Koran:

"If you (the believers) obey him (the Prophet
Muhammad) you will be guided." (Light, XXIV: 50)

Again,

1. " ...If you love Allah, and follow me
(Muhammad), God will love you, and forgive
you your sins." (The House of Imran, III: 25)

2. "We (Allah) sent not ever any Messenger, but
that he should be obeyed, by the leave of God."
(Women, IV: 65)

Here one can see how the Prophet Muhammad personalised his authority in the name of God. Thus, the Islamic theory of guidance has simply come to mean following Muhammad blindly: any question or hesitation is tantamount to blasphemy, which leads to hell. Small wonder that Allah has receded into the background, making Muhammad the greatest Idol of all times. If this statement is examined carefully, the truth cannot fail to emerge: it is well known that this earth has several time zones, which differ from one another gradually. It means that every moment there is some Muslim who is praying to Muhammad!

re #212 Posted by tahir on July 17, 2008 10:50:36 pm

Tahir,

Don't be too quick in understanding such wise ideas as Kuran. You are too attached to Islam to see anything wrong in Kuran and this is not something so extraordinary with muslims, most of them are like that.

you said:
-----
[[[My 'wise idea' is the SAME idea propagted by God's Prophets. You can neither assess God's requirements nor know His plan!

Will you not write your errant son a letter (or call him) of you're away earning dollars in Untidy Satans while the mother is neither able to guide the boy nor is the little beast self-correcting? THAT call will be your GUIDANCE for the one you love!]]]
----

Since so long, you had so many wise thoughts like some given by Hinduism and some by Budhdhism and I said earlier (use whatever links you get, not just wikipedia) through the example of Panchtantra that persians/arabs had known so many wise thoughts from Hindus/Budhdhists/Persians/Greeks still your ultra wise prophet was the only person who could write the amasingly wise Kuranic instructions for your errand boy? That eventually turned him into mutiple errand boys who became much worse with each passing day???

Your argument to defend Kuran against this errand boy theory is absurd, this may suggest that Muhhamd's intentions were good but it doesn't defend stupidity of Kuran or Muhammad. The question was that Muhammad was not a prophet of God, that is obvious for average intelligent being. If it is not obvious to you then say it openly. The second is Kuran doesn't have word of God and is certainly more harmful than good. The problems that it creates will surpass any ordinary good things it says.

You can oblige me further if you give a bit more details about what you want to argue about, if you think i have not understood you clearly. And for me it doesn't require much effort to give arguments in favour of something so obvious. All I need to do is to tell you what you are trying to ignore.


-----------
[[[Now THIS is neither the Porphet's command nor God's! Can't you see the error they make in justifying certain habits? What I meant was that the Qur'an and the Prophet never exhort believers to indulge in Taqiayah! Read the Qur'an IN CONETXT, not out of it!]]]
-------------


So you nkow a lot about Kuranic context and about prophet than prophet himself??? Right, plus you know a lot more than all those so called Islamic scholars have written. You should better watch those Ilamic videos and sites where they give verses in Arabic itself to defend their vision. Bulk of your Islamic scholars in last 14 centuries have not gone against the usual interpretation of those verses.
When I say deception is inherent in Islam, it is much more than Taqiya itself, the whole circular reasoning that Islam uses or its amazingly vast propaganda/conversion machinery uses is based on deception. You just feel happy because you have closed your eyses ears and evrything to ignore how Islam works.


------------
"And what Kuran says is plain stupid contradictory and tribal views/laws of a small world".

[[[Perish in your rage or return to the 'mandir'; I'd prefer you did the former. How silly can you sound? Our SMALL WORLD is over a billion Muslims, Pinky! Keep your stupidity under wraps please.]]]
-----------

Boy, that small world was the initial group of Muhammad, the group which became the receptor of initial wisdom from Muhammad. If all 1 billion of these converted muslims have been receiving those laws simulataneoulsy, their pre-conversion Hindu/Budhdhist/Persian brains would have given too many wise ideas/visions to God as well as to prophet. There must be many visionaries in them who got converted to plain muslim/non-muslim ideas and tribal laws.

-----
[[[Dunce, I've done my homework, YOU do it after school hours now!
Now return to the Wicked site and re-read all of it. And do differentiate between Sunnis and Shi'ahs. ]]]
---------


You have done nothing so far. Tell me do you think everything written in Kuran is good? Tell me what you feel is important God or Islam? Do you think it will be ok if we somehow forget religions and their idea of God and just care only about God. If all Hindus are converted to a religion-less group, will your ego allow all muslim to be converted to that same group.

Before we pretend to be too wise, we should first understand ourselves a bit. It is quite easy to pretend to be wise and say 1 bilion muslims do not need any change in anything and Islam can not be so wrong if 1 billion muslims are following it. All religions have stupidity and none of them is capable of holding onto to people with their concept of God. Humanity will move to better concept with each passing day. God is much more amazing than God of Kuran or religious books and humans are potentially much more intellgent than to stick to the stupid ideas of God of religions.


The idea that because Islam has 1.3 billion people, Christianity has 2.2 billion people and Hinduism has 900 million people, so let’s not offend anyone and let things be the way they are, is stupid.

Try to bring people closer to truth whatever it is, sometimes you may be wrong, but say it, others will correct you. You are part of system, you are making it evolve.

So while I won't beat or kill anybody to accept my reasoning, I will constantly challange them to accept it using my words. When the fight is between good and bad ideas, or right/wrong ideas, our mind is destined to be biased in favour of good/right ones. What is the proof, proof is your learning, your survival. Whole survival depends on figuring out right from wrong, even animals and everything that lives, somehow makes this distinction between right and wrong to survive. If you read latest research you will get to know how even plants are capable of learning.

A good basis of every social objective eventually can only be well being of whole humanity, its refinement. Whole humanity doesn't have enough intelligence to ensure it for each of our action/thought, but we still need to think in that direction while deciding any objective, especially the long term objectives. The simplest way for long term refinement is to remain close to truth in short term, everything else is taken care of by our mind and evolution.

For long term objective it is not required to ask muslims to leave Islam, let them enjoy the association, but it is required to slap all ideas that can be used to hurt others or that can breed only problems in future.

Anything in Islam (or any other religion) that contradicts good understanding or welfare of humanity as a whole should be refuted so strongly that it more or less becomes a well known truth and fools or deceivers or hardliners face challanged while supporting any such bad idea.

Again, one may ask why the hell we need to do it, why not let people do whatever they do? First part is that we are not change agents from outside, we are part of the system. Neither you nor me, nor anybody else is so detached from happening in this world that we can let anything happen around us. So whenever you feel like letting people kill each other, you can feel so because nobody has tried to kill you yet, the moment it will be your turn, you will get to know why all of us have a shared objective of moving in positive direction (doesn't matter how well we understand that positive direction).

That made perfect sense.

Re: # 239
n b.

My be so but you do know she was Shadow Minister and Qadiani .

And not NonQadiani to raise eye brow

Re: # 235
Leaden..u may know more
Asfik
Bhutoo declared them nonmuslim for political expediency .Other wise they are like gays who want to assert with pride that they are gay .

dont Ask dont Tell would be a solution for everything .

Mystic, MPs are not addressed as your Holiness.

Re: # 234
I think most of them are aethist and in order to con voters become muslim shia sunni unless more alligned through head as Aga, Burhanuddin, Mirza ..who are minority and of no use as constituent

Isnt hamidm prime example of such oppertunism .benefitted from Muslim Pak Army as long as it served the purpose

Re: # 232

n b Di
#232 Posted by nb on July 18, 2008 6:14:44 am
Mystic, there is a reason I did not ask you, I wanted to understand the answer.
I did follow you believe Qadianis are converting other Muslims. Where is your evidence?"

How many Qadianis are converted from hindu Christian or jews DIRECTLY .number of Qadianis certainly were not that much before as compared to now comminsurate with gen rate of growth .i think very large chunk of gen Muslim have become Qadiani lured by Stached collectively Cash & resources .Just take census inbetwen priods even cursorily evidence is there .

"if Qadianis are so evil, they should not have been counted with the Muslim population of pre-Independence India, when Jinnah was making his claims for land based on population'

Personally i dont think them not only NOT evil but i like them fot atleast thy are more muslim than hindu!But i understand Pakistan just as i understand Hindu BJP protective of there respective religion being eroded.

Jinnah said give me Pakistan size of Handkerchief as long as you give me totally as mine.you know he did not want exchange of population .If he wanted kushwant singh and sardars to stay why would he not Qadianis ?


"And lastly, I notice on youtube a video of Baroness Warsi with her head covered at an Ahmedi function, addressing someone as His Holiness. Why is Baroness Warsi not being outcast for this? "
I know i have seen that clip.The baroness is Ahmedie and ppl around her cheering are Qadianis .u saw the video i posted in Up in look Qadiani have dupatta hijab what have you Infact they would be considered more FUNDAMENTALIST .The Baroness of course like in Sunni/shia (benazir)Or any other sect have smart educated articulate ladies .The holiness you mean was Not religous head)but Minister or m.P. of britain Not Head of Qadiani .

kahan say chali thee baat or kahan tak pohnchi!

just read the article and the behas mubahisa

there are several things to object to
but..can any one tell me how
"hiring an agent" comes under the criteria of rishwat dena ya lena??

Perhaps if Pakistani passports put more emphasis on being "Pakistani" than on being Muslim .. we wouldn't have five or so separatist movements, droves of terrorists and traitors on our Northern borders, a failing economy, unreconcilable poverty and the general needless persecution of anybody who isn't a wahabi/deobandi/taliban/hijabi/beardy or whatever the fashionable faith is these days.

devkant#228:

Manto is not here but he has said it more than once that he is not an Ahmadi and is more inclined towards Ismaili faith; so he could sign on the dotted line with conscience.

Nb di,

Incidentally Pakistanis have argued that G'pur should have gone to Pak 'cos it had a Muslim majority while a large chunk of the Muslims in the distt were Qs who are non-Muslims by their own definition.

Regards

Mystic, there is a reason I did not ask you, I wanted to understand the answer.
I did follow you believe Qadianis are converting other Muslims. Where is your evidence?
BTW, if Qadianis are so evil, they should not have been counted with the Muslim population of pre-Independence India, when Jinnah was making his claims for land based on population. Surely a smart man like Jinnah would have known they were evil.
And lastly, I notice on youtube a video of Baroness Warsi with her head covered at an Ahmedi function, addressing someone as His Holiness. Why is Baroness Warsi not being outcast for this?

Is fundamentalism attitude or legislation like Koran with dos and don'ts? Our Muslim friends can give examples of quotes from Koran proving or disproving whether Koran is a book of fundamentalistic Dos and Don't.



1. The fundamentalists interpret religious commands, beliefs and principles literally and consider knowledge to be complete and final with no scope for discovery and change.


Does koran asks the believer not interprete Koran himself but take it literally? Does Koran forbid Ahmedi, Aghadi, Bahai, Alidi?



Ask similar questions to following points.



2. Fundamentalism does not believe in human equality. Those who do not share their belief system are inferior and deserve different treatment.



3. Fundamentalism does not trust human intellect and wisdom. It, therefore, admires compliance and conformity and discourages critical thought.



4. Fundamentalism prefers the group over the individual and holds ends sacrosanct over the means. To keep its supremacy and control it considers itself free to take even those measures that may clash with the basic tenets of their belief system. An example is the resort to suicide bombings which is repugnant in Islam.




5. Fundamentalism is basically misogynic. It restricts females to roles within defined boundaries under men’s control.



6. Fundamentalism denies to man his endowed possibilities and constant accountability kills human initiative and drive for progress.



7. Fundamentalism establishes the rule of a minority group over the majority.



8. Fundamentalist leadership is imposed from above.



9. Fundamentalist decision making is not transparent and there is no clear procedure for transfer of power. Things are done in the interest of the state.



10. Fundamentalists claim the right to interfere and have the last word in all matters.




11. Fundamentalist rule cannot give equal rights to unequal citizens.



12. Fundamentalist governance is undemocratic, does not seek consensus and rules by decree.



13. Fundamentalists rule out freedoms like speech, writing, assembly and organization.



14. Fundamentalism lacks the flexibility needed for political survival and the system ultimately collapses. (This is the good news.)



15. Fundamentalist regime permits torture, accountability and sectarian disharmony as state policy and governance principle. 16. Fundamentalist rule thrives on fabricated anti state conspiracies.



17. Fundamentalist regimes keep looking for super human characters: a character in a Brecht play says, “unfortunate is a people who do not breed heroes; another remarks, unfortunate is a nation which is always in need of a hero.�




18. Fundamentalist society uses secrecy and lies in place of transparent dialogue.



19. Fundamentalists rely on casuistry when faced with embarrassing facts.



20. Fundamentalists fan sectarian, racial, linguistic and cultural animosities.



21. Fundamentalists exploit cheap slogans and promote negative thinking.



22. Fundamentalist governments soon get packed with sycophants and mountebanks of all varieties.



23. Fundamentalists adopt isolationist policies instead of joining the world community.



24. Fundamentalist regimes are a threat to regional and international peace.

http://66.139.75.46/Hindi/Amrit%20Dwar/amrit_dwar_01.mp3

Re: # 213

Kaalchakra, could you please tell me what is so particularly evil about Qadianism so that I can hate it too, thanks

With due apology to Kaal but I couldnt help

Why do BJP hate Staines Mother Thresa and all prostelization resulting in hindu becoming christians .Certainely thes neo christians are not seen as God Hindu who abandoned there 100000 yrs of Indic heritage

Qadianis just like christian missionaries in India since the inception of Mirza Ghulam perhaps 150 yrs ago has been converting 'real muslims'
Now some hindus dont hate christians but would rather be one for there progressive outlook but too coward to offend majority hindu .Same way some real muslims like Manto may be Mirzaee by heart but for political reason not openly so .
Somr real muslims have genuine fear and concern rightfully of secretive seperatist .In terms of nation would not India hate Kashmir it it suceeds in seperating as New India .

amongst all the crap that has been dished out on this board so far, i have just one basic question.

how the hell did manto aka yasser latif hamdanii manage to get his green paki book???

did he sign on the dotted line about his late father's faith?????

#226 by ta-hiramandiwala

Is this you Hairy Hydra?

Tahir mian, if I ever red-flag a post, it will have to be more deserving than your numerous one-line inane posts.

Is this you Hairy Hydra?

Communists BEHAVE, stop 'red-flagging' my posts when my hammer and siclke hurts you.

Re: # 222 Ahirish Hydra
"With due respect Tahir mian, all those tons of wit are but a poor substitute for a single well thought out argument"

For instance, what argument do you wish to settle?

Re: # 216
"Theres a rumour that WHO or some western agency(ies) is/are administering a drug, in the guise of polio vaccine, that would cause sterility..."

This old news. Can you reproduce NOW?

With due respect Tahir mian, all those tons of wit are but a poor substitute for a single well thought out argument.

Re: # 156 Iron Side
"why does nt the state declare itself as irreligious. Give every citizen 100 rounds of the AK47 and an AK47 (every man women and child). Declare open season - human hunting. Give 3 hrs"

Are you re-defining the Untidy Satans again?

Re: # 155 Pubic US
"Hence a state based on privileging any religion is [to that extent] illegitimate"

Member-since-July-this-year, what state are you in: Hysteria?

Re: # 154 Qul-Soyem

"Sufis didn't do anything harmful to anyone. They in turn got hunted down for spreading love"

Are you referring to Woodstock, free-love, flower-power?

Re: # 151 Charles

"If amrikan constitution is amended requiring every muslim to sign a paper while applying for greencard/passport and that piece of paper says :"I am a muslim. I don't support religious war known as Jihad and I consider it a form of terrorism." , How many of you will sign it? Will it be a basic violation of human rights.

That was asked by GWB in his infamous 'either you're with us or them' statement. You're mixing the core of Islamic beliefs with political (read that 'oily policy') non-sense.

I've remember seeing a question (many years ago) on a US visa form that asked applicants to declare if their women were ever caught soliciting! THIS from a nation that does not mind gay-lesbian marriages, loves displaying their women's flesh to the world, and wages wars against others on one pretext or the other deserves God's punishment.

We are witnessing the fall of this empire....stay tuned.

Re: # 142 Qul-Soyem

"Ideally, there should be a robot leading Nimaz, because it the same repetitive stuff that an Imam does, it must get pretty boring doing it day in a day out."

It is obvious that you don't know what the words mean! Have you watched '2001: a space odyssey' many times?

nb,

Theres a rumour that WHO or some western agency(ies) is/are administering a drug, in the guise of polio vaccine, that would cause sterility...

Re: # 138 Aik Love Ya

"Then, if Hindus still feel so passionate about Mirzais, they can go ahead and fight on their behalf"

What a wonderful idea! Just like the J-people are having the Muslims and Chrsitians kill each other to help THEIR cause!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Adamkhan, what is unIslamic about polio vaccination? I really don't know, and while we were taught all kinds of cultural issues that could arise in our practice, I do not remember polio vaccination being unIslamic.
Kaalchakra, could you please tell me what is so particularly evil about Qadianism so that I can hate it too, thanks.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 133 Stutter-2
"Note that Ahmadis are OK with praying with other Muslims … but not behind other Muslims … and for valid reasons."

And the reasons are....?

"As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I wouldn’t want to pray behind a person who rejects a prophet of Islam."

You mean the Qadian-pretender?

"I am OK in praying “with� a non-Ahmadi … but not behind him … since his imamat is clearly not acceptable to me."

Explain who poisoned your mind?

Here is another problem that arises with mixing religion with law making. According to the religion of the Taliban (which is apparently Islam the last time I checked), polio vaccination drops are haram... here is the result.


Swat child is new polio victim



By Ashfaq Yusufzai


PESHAWAR, July 16: A new polio case has been found in Swat district, where local Taliban have been aggressively opposing the anti-polio campaign for about a year.

Seven-month-old Tanzeela of Kabal was tested positive for polio on Wednesday. Officials associated with the anti-polio drive told Dawn that the infected child had not received a single dose of oral vaccine (OPV) because of Taliban’s opposition to the vaccination campaign.

With this case, the number of polio victims reported this year has increased to four – two in Nowshera and one in Kohat.

Health officials said the Swat case was of P1, a dangerous form of the disease, and it was necessary to immediately launch a vaccination campaign in the area to stop further cases. Other three cases in the province were of P3 which was not so dangerous.

Of the 365,000 children aged under five in Swat valley, about 50,000 did not get polio drops because they lived in areas controlled by Taliban.

Informed sources in the health department said that the district administration of Swat was not willing to launch a vaccination campaign because of security concerns.

HpSauce,

it appears you've started hitting the sauce....

Let's converse again when you're less inebriated.

hurricane, you are missing the bullsyeyee

neembu is a bheeri bheeri big target obvioloius

no no no. No dancing and singing from me.

Chill pubicus is a friend member of like mededdded gang

deep deep undercover totally embedded

hurrican, toofaan bhai, aap ka ilog ka time hogaya hain ...chaliye. MASADI ka log ho jaaye

HPSauce,

et tu, neembu?

HPSauce,

why the lies bro?

My guru is Maulana Toofani urf mullah toofani. I will urge Salim pi to become a follower as well.

No, publius is not salim.

Re: # 203 abaey saale, salim terra guru hain, aur tu kiya bol rahe ho...ya kya bauk rahe ho

chal jaa ke aapne guru dev se maaphi maang

jokes. You never joke hurricane. You are a bhery serious aadmi.

Publius bhai,

Interaction with Kaal bhai and Mohar bhai left me looking for double and triple meanings.

I apologize for any insults..however, not for any wit ;)

unfortunately the obl's and mullah omars and ayman's of the world are not really emotionally or intellectually sensible. These are brute forces created to fill in gaps within the current environment. One cannot expect them to represent muslim thoughts and feelings.

as far as arguments go, it is fairly difficult for me to argue. There are several things that disqualify me:
1. I have few ideas to begin with, none of them are original
2. I'm not a sufi
3. I have abandoned mental acrobatics and have instead grown attached to the heart and light hearted jokes.

With all this thinking, one just tries to separate oneself from others, one feeds the ego...the ego...that which should be annihilated if one is to know about God. So thinking is definitely not the right way to go.

Hence I can't really offer arguments.

200 toofan aab aap kiya flying dervish hain?

Sufi toofan Dervish saabd, saawdhan| Aap toofan hain aur flying dervish bhi.....yahan tornado mutt daaliyo....kahin aaap yeh toofan aapki mukh mandal se yeh

"Firstly, muslims don't like to prostate infront of any one but God"

Hurricane I was talking of Islamists , not muslims. [ people like Bin laden, not sufis].

I disagree with the sufis, but I respect some of them and they are in any case morally distinct from Bin Laden types.

And you can't counter arguments by insults only by other arguments.

mohar bhai,

yaar I'm not reeling in any vortex...I could be whirling with love...and you may have been alarmed ...no matter.

I am the easiest person to get along with yaar....you can bring all sorts of divine constructs and I'll tell you don't worry...there is but one truth: love. We all flow back to that ocean of love.

Don't worry about it...just live happy, be nice to your neighbors (even if they're muslims), live clean (no gau muttra etc), don't hack people's limbs (muslims or low caste), be good to your family, be just and fair....that's it...let the rest take care of itself :)

Re: # 195 iron

Amen to that... These god-botherers are bothering everybody with their meaningless blabbering...

I mean - look at hoori - he is stuck, reeling in the same old god-damned vortex: One god, many gods, man-made, monkey-made, walmart-made... he keeps reeling and reeling... So sad...

HPSauce bhai,

waqaee, nahin pehchana...zara bataiyay to qibla koun hain?

toofan bhai, aap, kiya aapke purane jigri dost, Publius ko naheen pehchana.

pubic bhai,

Firstly, muslims don't like to prostate infront of any one but God. So bowing down to lick feet is sort of out of the question.

Secondly, licking feet is unhygenic. I know that's a tough call for you (given the stories that Cobra has been telling me about the benefits of drinking one's own urine, or the urine of cows...anyways...you get the drift), but we are big on hygiene. So that's another no-no.

Thirdly, why do you bother your tiny little brain my friend? You don't have to intellectualize God...you won't go anywhere. You have to embrace the unknown...it matters little what you can think up...for the reality is an illusion anyway.

hope that answers your questions.

p.s. you're growing wild again...remember hygiene?

Re: # 190 Mohar can we put your Mohar on this and dump it in the nearest swamp, so that the swampy thingies can assimilate it and not let out again ever. So that we are rid of the god-botherers.

mohar bhai,

I hear your complain: too many gods to keep track of. I feel you need to simplify.

go with One!

Re: # 187

Ah! The spider senses something, and is moving quickly to the far corner to watch ;)

Good afternoon Ekalavya. See you later (T)

Those who try to start with God fail at the very first hurdle. The necessity of proof.

For 2000 years they have tried and tried and to what result. One big zero.

Neither Aquinas nor Anselm ever succeeded. The Islamists are not good enough even to lick their feet. They have no arguments, just brute force and will be replied in the same fashion.

Re: # 190

hahahaha...true!

Re: # 186 hoori

Even better answer... now we have man-made god, god-made-god and also bandar-made-god.... Daddy likey... :)

Re: # 183 Ekalavya, in the big picture, grand scheme of things the first lot come out on top since they have developed a whole body knowledge/experience to draw upon - though in immediate short term they might appear to be making head way (there are many examples but lets leave them aside for now). While the second set have floundered, wasted, stagnated and have become the ruled.

The first lot are very Socratesian/Grecian in their approach. The second lot...well better left unsaid.

Kaal bhai,

hahaha...you always leave when the discussion gets interesting .

Good answer?! Sufi brother is saying that God came first!

LOL, doctor sahib, this is addiction. OK, must leave now! :)

Iron bhai,

Mohar is a mischievous one, like the bandar god. Laddu is a pained one...he is actually on the path to releasing his anger.

Remember, if you touch a touch me not, it shies away. It is better to show them love and talk gently and with compassion and love...these angry brothers too shall calm down and see and hear better once the noise has died down.

Re: # 184 hoori

Good answer... :)

mohar bhai,

I have very few ideas. And none of them are original. But you know and I know that moorakhs like you and moorakhs like me, are all created by the same creator, and we don't really need to "Think" about it to make it so ;)

iron, there may be two ways forward. In one, one toils like bees, takes risks, experiments, learns, fails (mostly), succeeds (rarely). This is the pursuit material ends.

The other is simply to (try) to take things over, to one way or another appropriate what others have done, and to put one's own logo on them.

Both are feasible. No?

----------

No web here, yaaron. I do have to run, though. Later.

Re: # 180 Perish the thought Harry's Cane you aint a moorakh but a Pershing-II (T)

Re: # 180 hoori

Alright smart-a$$ - now answer Iron's question... who came first - man or god...

mohar bhai,

there is plain language ...for moorakhs like you and I, and then there is exalted language that some moorakhs like myself use to converse with the enlightened ones. A moorakh like myself understands it, but a moorakh like you cannot.

Rest assured, Kaal bhai understood ;)

Mirza ... (grin)

Re: # 175

I know you know... but my good friend hoori, he has no idea... :)

Re: # 176 Mohar Which came first man or god?

kaal
[...I do need to go back to my prescribed break from chowk...]

Please do... don't you see what you are doing these people?... I mean, look at hoori - he is already babbling incoherently, reeling from your "man-made/god-made" vortex of bullsh!t... Have pity on these people... :)

Re: # 171 Bhai Mohar, it is early in the day for Ekalvaya to fold his cards and table and move.

We need him to carry on weaving his web. Those of us in the know, do not accept his implicit invite to walk into his parlour ;)

Re: # 173 Ekalavya:"iron bhai, why not? A perfectly valid appraoch would be to begin with God and with what God would want. Once you begin with God, man dissolves.

Publius, from his human point of view, would call that 'irrational.' But if we begin with God, we don't get too upset over human rationality or irrationality."

hhhmmm! yes. see my earlier interacts.

Still, I do accept and believe in the position of Publius. For that is the only logical way forward.

Ekalvaya, I repeat (from #170)

"I think, therefore I am"

with the god bothering coming in the way "I think" goes out of the window. Every is certain and preordained - that absolutely defeatist and reeks of stagnation. That is why, even with the most powerful and potent resource in the world the god-botherers have to import knowledge and let others make better use of it.

anil ji, you put us all in a big dharamsankat :)

I just don't see how tolerance and acceptance are logically possible. Whatever of this sort seems to exist is simply fraud, just minimum necessary to delude the ignorant, IMHO.

Do we really need that kind of tolerance and acceptance, anil ji?

------------------------

iron bhai, why not? A perfectly valid appraoch would be to begin with God and with what God would want. Once you begin with God, man dissolves.

Publius, from his human point of view, would call that 'irrational.' But if we begin with God, we don't get too upset over human rationality or irrationality.

------------

Dr Mohar, ok, ok, I got it. I do need to go back to my prescribed break from chowk. Sorry, Sir! :)

Re: # 168 Senator Publius please see #170 and #159. There is a difference in premises here. I think. See now those two words.

"I Think" to which if you two more equally powerful words "therefore I am" no rub that make it 3, you get 5 of the most powerful words ever strung together by mankind. The whole problem gets boiled down to what we mean by "think".

Bhai Kaal - enough already ... how long are you going to toy with gullible pakis and their obsession with various bedouin/wannabe-bedouin incantations?... LOL ...

Islam is God-made religion... Ahmedism is evil... blah blah... give it a rest dude, pakis are already on their way to self-destruction - your "help" isn't needed no more... :)

Re: # 167 PUblius man:Let those who have a "different way of thinking" try and justify their concepts without reference to Man and their irrationality will become clear.

Irrationality and rationality are not universal notions as you assume them. They are entirely dependent on the framework you are working within. Thus to a Moslem, hindus are a bunch of irrational people, to theJews so on and so forth. though the world has come to accept some degree of commonality in the frameworks, it is still sufficiently different to cause problems. And there are some who do not even accept that there can be anything common.

In the words of Tahir the Great - Moslems know the Truth the rest believe they have the truth. You are in the rest category thus the arguments. See my earlier '#159!

Once you grasp this you will realise what The Great Wheel O Time is doing here. He is going against his basic properties and trying to compartmentalise everything. While Kaal should know there is no compartment - we are all just simple chemicals strung together through some gigantic chemical reaction gone wrong somewhere in the mists of time

Kaal bhai,

I would feel so special being the arbiter of man-made religion vs. God-made religion. Why, I would even tell one group that they are the God-made religion, and goad them into a state of delirium, plant a virus into their heads, and then watch as the man-made folks chop them down. I would publicly "adore" the religion I declare to be "God-made" while continuing to not believe in it, cause the ultimate reality I'm interested in would probably not contain such silly notions.

I'd have great powers, indeed. I guess the only drawback is that my speech and writings would become extremely convoluted and confusing. :(

"Are you suggesting, "nature of Life" and "welfare of Life"? Or are you suggesting "nature of a man who is xyz" Welfare of a man who is xyz"

iron_mask, to the extent I understand what you are asking. I am talking about the Nature of Man's Life in general. Not a particular man and his nature but the nature of man's life in general.

"Can you imagine a radically opposite way of thinking"

The issue is not whether I can imagine it but whether it would be justifiable. The concepts of value and legitimacy pertain to Man and they have to be objectively related to Man's existence.

Let those who have a "different way of thinking" try and justify their concepts without reference to Man and their irrationality will become clear.

Re: # 165 that is a problem you have set Senator Publius, and he will answer it.

Are you suggesting, "nature of Life" and "welfare of Life"? Or are you suggesting "nature of a man who is xyz" Welfare of a man who is xyz"
(man woman dont make a difference here) (xyz could anything perfect - like perfect religion perfect belief etc)?

It depends on what the radical alternative is?

Publius, everything you say here (and have been saying in other places) follows logically once you begin (and end) with the 'Man.'

'Nature of man', 'welfare of man', etc etc become the source of everything, as well as everything's objective.

Can you imagine a radically opposite way of thinking? Where the Man (or Woman) is not the beginning and the end of human living?

Kaal:

Somehow I think that you like to partition minds into religious boxes and thus like to create a system of religious apartheid.

In this religious apartheid you seem to regards some thoughts and somethings so unique / superior that they must be either believed or feared.

This approach excludes more. Your exclusion of thought, now even rituals (you have objection to someone praying behind a Muslim) and creating a belief that a particular thought (=religion) is superior has the worst side effects of apartheid. It overwhelms and enslaves both the believers and fearers, and hence creates more negatives.

You cliam to do this for to understand better. Are you really better understanding anything, by either completely beliving it, or completely fearing it, as your approach suggests?

Can you not research the boundaries from the common denominators which could not be cut? Rather than peeling the layers off tolerance and acceptance, and grinding them to make them sharper than they already are?

At these boundaries, I am certain you must have noticed, that there is acceptance and tolerance for peaceful co-existance. There was a news item last week on BBC web-site that talked about tribes in central Rajasthan who for centiries have lived and shared hindu and muslim rituals. There a Mohammad had a son named Shankar.

Now VHP and Tablighi Jamaat have reached there to make difference sharper and extended families are breaking up which have both hindus and muslims in one family unit.

What would you like to be?

"It could also be the promotion of virtue and suppression/elimination of vice."

No that does not follow. Here is what I am saying. The concept of legitimacy of the state and much more broadly the concept of value [ of which legitimacy is a subset] are metaphysical not subjective concepts. They are derived from the nature of reality, the nature of man.

They are not merely matters of opting for one framework or the other.

Now when we objectively derive these concepts we find morality[ except in terms of rights] , in order to be valid, has to be voluntary , not enforced.

A person who is forced to act let's say to be polite is not by that reason practicing the virtue of politeness. He is merely acting on coercion.

Virtue in order to be virtue has to be voluntary, or else it's not virtue at all.

Therefore the idea of enforced morality is a contradiction in terms.

The state by attempting to enforce morality will only destroy rights and lives, not create a virtuous society.

ts, were I believer, I wouldn't wish to usurp God's privileges. I would listen to His clear word. :)

Kaal bhai,

Can I sign up to be the arbiter of what's man-made religion and what's God-made religion?

ts bhai, that is simplicity itself.

There is man-made religion, and there is God-made religion, as you would agree.

Nothing new there.

Re: # 155 This kind of sophistry does not work Senator Publius. It might work in the hallowed portals of your institution. Even in the Senate, Julius got killed, Nero declared himself god, and every Senator had his own god.

Secondly, when you have THE KNOWLEDGE and YOU KNOW IT IS TRUE - all else is secondary. Your logic is flawed, Senator Publius. You need to start from a the following

(a) Quran is THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE SOURCE BOOK
(b) QURAN IS FULL KNOWLEDGE - Everything you need to know about life is in there

The test of anything you say has to be measured against these two tenets. Once it fails against even one, Senator You have failed.

Kaal bhai,

you should write an article about all the frameworks you've defined on chowk thus far. I am interested in lettering myself a wee bit

Publius, yaar, you see why it pains both of us to have us confused for each other?! :(

"The proper purpose of a government is the protection of individual rights."

Yes, in a humanistic framework. It could also be the promotion of virtue and suppression/elimination of vice.

----------

ts bhai, how are you? :)

bhai, you are a forgiving sufi, and it pained me to hear from a 'Persian' friend (that's what he calls himself) some days back that sufis aren't having an exactly easy time in Iran either! Somehow, in Lucknow, we all believe everyone in Iran is a sufi!

I forgot to ask him about the Ahmedi 'Muslim' Assocation of Iran.

why does nt the state declare itself as irreligious. Give every citizen 100 rounds of the AK47 and an AK47 (every man women and child). Declare open season - human hunting. Give 3 hrs limit.

Everyone will be happy. they can get rid of the favourite people. The state stands on the sidelines. No cops, no army etc interfering.

The perfect solution (T)

The legitmacy of the state and what is perceived to be the legitmacy are two separate things.

If one comes up against a view of government which one judges to be wrong one need not simply accept it as a fait accompli. As some sort of primary unanalyzble, unchallengable idea. The proper response is then to challenge and debate.

The proper purpose of a government is the protection of individual rights. The priveliging of any religion is a violation of the rights of those who don't share that religion or don't share it's dominant interpretation.

Hence a state based on privileging any religion is [to that extent] illegitimate.

Kaal bhai,

It appears you've been sharpening your knives in your long absence ;).

Array bhai, Sufis didn't do anything harmful to anyone. They in turn got hunted down for spreading love. (See my ilog on smiles).

I say Mirzais should be able to do as they wish. One caveat, as muslims, mirzais cannot insult the prophet (pbuh), and still think it's a-ok.

On a logical level though, I say, new prophet = new religion. But if they don't feel Qadian sahib is a prophet, then that's all cool too.

BKisan (#136),

I have a different take on Islam and its history. Granted, historical accounts offer conflicting versions and “connecting the dots� remains somewhat subjective.

My understanding is that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) maintained a peaceful and forgiving attitude towards his enemies. At times he (pbuh) picked up arms in defense, but restricted violence as only a defensive tool, to be used only as a last resort when faced with direct violence. Now, it is quite possible that over time, Muslims strayed from these teachings and started to interpret Islam as mainly and necessarily a political ideology, but that’s somewhat of a different topic.

While we may differ in what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) actually did … I agree with you that forcing one’s faith is not what righteous, fair-minded people would do. And I remain wary of several ahadith … since their authenticity, translation, and interpretation are far from sound, in my view.

+++

Persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims would continue for time to come. However, I am reassured by the conviction with which they have countered violence with patience, while invoking Quran and teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for inspiration. Their collective patience and faith mirrors the patience and faith of early Muslims from 1400 years ago, in my view.

Of course, I am biased in my own ways … so I can’t justifiably expect others to necessarily accept my viewpoint is a valid one … and life goes on …

Kul bhai, please do let me know if I got that right. I detest Mirzaism and consider it a great evil among humans, but do not wish to misunderstand it.

Thanks in advance.

A Question for Mainstream Muslims here:

If amrikan constitution is amended requiring every muslim to sign a paper while applying for greencard/passport and that piece of paper says :"I am a muslim. I don't support religious war known as Jihad and I consider it a form of terrorism." , How many of you will sign it? Will it be a basic violation of human rights? What will be your reaction after reading that paper?

Publius, the 'state' is not the sole subject of focus of everyone, and the 'state' does not arise out of nowhere. It has its own bases of legitimation. In Muslim countries those bases are Islam and people.

kul, that's a cheap shot, which one expected.

It would be more useful to hear your answer to your own question, and to see if your answer differs from the answer I provided. Thanks.

Ek. There are lots of things you don't know. Can I suggest some readings? because your views appear to be pretty ignorant of Ahmadi beliefs. I honestly doubt that you have ever seen Ahmadi literature (seen because you have obviously not read it).

"They are simply requested to not call themselves Muslims"

When the state passes discriminatory laws against you which you are obliged to follow at the risk of imprisonement it does not constitute a "request", it constitutes persecution.

kul, I don't know. But if one understands Mirzai spirit and intent, so long as a Mirzai is not praying behind Muslims, there is no reason why he or she should not be able to pray.

Eklayva, since you are an expert on Ahmadis, tell me is it allowed for Ahmadis to pray if he/she hears an Azaan done by a non-Ahmadi. Let’s see your scholarly view on this one.

BKisan, there is NO peresecution of Mirzais anywhere in the Islamic world. They are simply requested to not call themselves Muslims.

Kulbhai is a very nice person but it would be theologically unacceptable for Mirzais to pray behind Muslims because theologically Mirzais are not Muslims.

They simply wish to destroy Islam just as Sufis worked to destroy Hinduism, from the inside.

Whatever Hindus may believe, Muslims have no obligation AT ALL to let Mirzais do to them what sufis did to Hindus.

BKisan

Mirzaism is uniquely evil, but that is neither here nor there.

The issue is: are Hindus acting in total ignorance (again)? Or are they acting, fully cognizant of Mirzai history and doctrine?

re #139 - Charlie, it is a commonsense (or common nonsense) to worry about who is leading the prayers (and with due respect to Sattar Sahib for his opinion). I will pray behind anyone, even a non-believer, because I am not praying “to� him, but to my creator. He is just there as a loud mouth. Ideally, there should be a robot leading Nimaz, because it the same repetitive stuff that an Imam does, it must get pretty boring doing it day in a day out.

The purpose of praying is to be humble and to submit to a divine power, and not to worry about who the Imam is. It’s like saying that if Chudhary Rafeeq is piloting the plane, I will miss my flight.

The issue is reasonably independent of the details of Qadiani doctrine etc.

Sattar2 is absolutely correct. The issue is state coercion and discrimination . The state has no right to force any particular view of this matter on the citizens. Those citizens who choose to regard Qadianis as muslims ought to be free to do so and those who choose not to should be free not to.

For the purposes of the state, self identification ought to be enough.

Re: # 138

The thrust of several posters and now you is that Ahmedis are somehow uniquely evil and thus their persecution is justified. Islam is at war with every single faith in the world it is in proximacy with, be it Bahais suffering a very similar fate as Ahmedis, African animists enslaved by Jihadi raiders, Hindus sold as slaves in the 10's of millions, Christians wiped out from the Middle East, Jews persecuted in pogroms one after another and driven out of the Middle East, Inter-sectarian wars all over the place......

But Muslim propagandist Eklavya would have 'Hindus' (as if they are the only ones expressing an issue with the fate of Ahmedis) read up and apparently learn about the unique evil of Mirzais whereupon they would then approvingly look on as inquisition, witch hunt, pogroms and destruction of this group goes on.......

Re: # 133 Note that Ahmadis are OK with praying with other Muslims … but not behind other Muslims … and for valid reasons.
As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I wouldn’t want to pray behind a person who rejects a prophet of Islam. I am OK in praying “with� a non-Ahmadi … but not behind him … since his imamat is clearly not acceptable to me.

I really appreciate your honest and direct answer.

Personally, I have prayed behind Ahmedi Imams because I believe that we have same quran, same prophets except the last one, same books of ahadith , same customs and social events, same eids and ramazan etc... In my opinion, our similarities are more powerful than our differences. And hence, even if I disagree with Imam Sahib at one of two points, I should not discard the similarities at all...

I remember my village where barelvis and deobandis used to have two different mosques because of minor theological differences. At that time, I used to believe that the ones who insist on offering prayers behind their Imam were conservative while the ones who didn't mind offering a few prayers once in a while behind other sect's imam were moderates. ( A rough opinion about the personalities.).

If we start making sects based on minor differences of opinion, there will be six billion worship places in the world...

Ignorance has only limited benefits.

Before deciding on such issues as being discussed here Hindus should read up on Mirzai history, find out about the Mirzai doctrine, and learn in some depth about the views and the deeds of the Mirzai 'prophet.'

Then, if Hindus still feel so passionate about Mirzais, they can go ahead and fight on their behalf.

i would like to say especially to mr Pinku DONT BARK IRRELEVENTALLY,,U PSHYCO..FIRST READ QURAN AND THEN THINK TO SPEAK...u ppl r just useless creatures on earth..

#134 Nice sentiments Sattar.

You wrote:
Communities have and probably will continue to differ in interpreting Islam. The issue now is how to handle these differences. If your main alternative is persecution and use of force, then you’ve already lost the cause, I am afraid.

They may have lost morally but in the real world this is the way Islam owes the majority of its success to. Mohammad could only muster a few hundred mostly indigent followers, mostly attracted by the free Biriyanis. After violence, raiding caravans, jihad, letters of submit or else and gruesome murders by his followers like Khalid Ibn Walid who in one case killed a man and then enjoyed his nuptials (had sex with) with his wife in the mans blood.
"I have been made victorious with terror" claimed the Prophet and that was the truth of the matter.
There are many hadiths with Mohd saying to kill heretics and appealing to lofty sentiments and 'hoping your Islam teaches better' is not something that will stop the persecution of Ahmedis.

re #113 Posted by tahir

Tahir,
I can tell you why Muhhamad was not prophet or messenger of God. The very first reason is that God doesn't need a prophet or a book to ensure anything in this world. Depending upon which part of your body you use to understand this statement and how much you understand this, I can elaborate it further. Let me know your wise ideas.

Now on your Taqiya or pillow comment.
Read on Wikipdeia the two verses mentioned in Kuran that are the foundation of Taqiya. You will get to know a bit about how deception or concept of Taqiya came from Kuran.


On another blabbering about who muslim is.

Try to understand this: a muslim is one who follows Islam. Islam is what Kuran says. And what Kuran says is plain stupid contradictory and tribal views/laws of a small world and which as a whole doesn't make sense for good humans.

Because definition of muslim is dependent on definition of Islam and that on what Kuran says, al of them are as imperfect as Kuran.

If you want to discuss how perfect Kuran is, you can start verse by verse and with any number of translations. And if you haven't read Kuran properly then better read it first.

Remember if Kuran is not good, sooner or later everybody will have to accept it, even if "later" is 100 more years or 500 more years. People are destined to become wise not unwise if they survivie, so your only option is to wipe them out. Good luck if you decide to kill them all.

Bhatti (#61),

Your comments are based on conjecture. Persecuting others on such basis remains unjustifiable in my view; I hope your Islam teaches you better.

And I am not asking you to accept Ahmadis as Muslims. You may consider them non-Muslims - and that’s fine. However imprisoning them for considering themselves Muslims is a different issue altogether.

Communities have and probably will continue to differ in interpreting Islam. The issue now is how to handle these differences. If your main alternative is persecution and use of force, then you’ve already lost the cause, I am afraid.

Charlie (#78),

Zafrullah Khan had a good reason for not joining-in in the funeral prayers for Jinnah. This prayer was led by Maulana Shabbir Usmani, who had declared Ahmadis wajib-e-qatal (worth of being killed). Zafrullah Sahib had good reasons for refusing to accept imamat of such a maulvi.

Note that Ahmadis are OK with praying with other Muslims … but not behind other Muslims … and for valid reasons.

As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I wouldn’t want to pray behind a person who rejects a prophet of Islam. I am OK in praying “with� a non-Ahmadi … but not behind him … since his imamat is clearly not acceptable to me.

There’s more … but I’ll pause her for now.

Re: # 77

Hamidm sahib:

"...not a real religion ..... not really .....until somone on this forum can explain wht tha heck it is all about...."

With all the interacts here over all these years (may be in your pre-histotic to Chowk time also), have you really figured out whose Muslim is really a muslim?

I suggest you should honored with an exclusive column "Hamidm Sahib's Muslim". You can certainly debate whether "Massaddi Mian's Muslim", "Tahmed Sahib's Muslim" should also have a columns. Even a better idea may be to sell this column to others in Pakistan, then it can make money on classification.

Re: # 124 Ironside
"Maulana Tahir, may allah shower his blessing upon your camel's backside for your benefit, Salutations."

Chief Ironside,

Your good wishes have been conveyed to Mr. Tahir who is currently in his spiritual jacuzzi!

Regards,
His secretary

Re: # 92 Charles

Charlie a Cheema?
You too Cheemutus?

There can only exist ONE such tribesman on ChowQ.

Re: #127

Toori yaar. What proof do you have that Karela (PUBH) is a legit prophet?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

55/dada

No good work ever goes unpunished... Ahmedis did the "right" thing by supporting pakiland movement - which ironically has come back to bite them back in their qadiani a##es...

in Land of Pure, they have been branded impure - while in very non-pure Land of Kufr, they are still considered as pure as camel milk(or whatever bedouins consider pure), no questions asked...

So harish still has a point - becareful what you wish for...

Re: # 78 Charles
"Out of several Ahmedis I have met in recent years, I have yet to see a "moderate Ahmedi" while moderate Sunni and Shia individuals are dime a dozen."

So who is brain-washed, neurotic, and bigoted?

Maulana Tahir, may allah shower his blessing upon your camel's backside for your benefit, Salutations.

You need to learn from Arjun whom you call urchin. Punchy one liners. Few posts, and not dredging stuff from intereact 1 when we are on interact 150.

Maulana Tahir, may Allah shower her blessing upon your camel's backside for your benefit. Salutations. You need to go back to eeschool and learn from Guru Arjun(T)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 64 Kissin'
"The Krbatti's, Tahirs, Pakistan Govt lawmakers are only following this logic to its natural conclusion. They...will commit crimes against humanity under its spell."

I will have to disappoint you. I won't even kill a fly like you!

Re: # 119; asadite heretic

are you suggesting that the "Islamic" inhabitants of the Islamic Republic don't take 'rishwat'???

now your master (Mr Max as you call him) has already admitted to "buying" a police station to teach an adversary a lesson!.....perhaps time to compare notes before making claims under the influence of a deluded mind?

Re: # 61 Bhatti

Bhatti saab, aniaN mafiaN na maNgo huN!

Re: # 59 M.Z.
...I paid an agent to stand in the queue"

This "Al-raashi wa'al-murtashi fin'naar" point needs further hammering into a Q-cumberish mind.

Re: # 116; tahir sahib
[[Get lost in your 'mandir' now]]

just for your information my ass-adite heretic colleague, I don't think arjun mian is hindu sir or cares about what you just said

you should perhaps save your energies for the "real" hindus if you must

Re: # 56 Aaron
First sing this:

"When I was a pretty little baby
My mama would rock me in my craddle
In them old cotton fields back home.

Now, when them old fields get rotten
You can't pick very much cotton
In them old cotton fields back home.

It was down in Louisiana
Just about a mile from Texarkana
In them old cotton fields back home.

------------
Okay now...you should have re-written your 'ChowQ profile' before you posted this!

"Shame on Pakistan for discriminating against religious minorities"

Down with the devils' FOREIGN advocates....

Re: # 52 Urchin
Non-sense pasted from some idiotic source! The Qur'an says nothing of the sort! God's Word remains our guide, not YOU!

Get lost in your 'mandir' now....

....it is quite ridiculous to ask someone to tick mark their religion on a passport.....

......this is/was more a political ploy in pakistan than anything else....which has now stuck......

ahmedis in pakistan have a tough future ahead.....there are very few on their side, in pakistan.....canada is a good option......they have certain advantages in immigration laws, as they can indicate themselves to be a politically impacted community.......

jews were prosecuted in europe....had they not migrated to the usa, they would not have been able to control world events and influence european opinion/policy like they can now....

....i have met with individuals who will do philanthrapy for other pakistani minorities, but when it comes to ahmedis, they are all in the same line as the govt. policy....

I must say the only "taquiya" I ever heard of was a "pillow"

Re: # 48 Pinky Baby
"Deception is inherent in Islam. They even have a term for it Taqiyya"

My Shi'ah brothers will be in a better position to comment on THIS device. It is neither mentioned in the Qur'an nor the Hadith literature!

Contact the nearest Imam-bargah.....

Re: # 47 Pinky Baby
"Whether Ahmadiyas are muslim or not depends on "what defines a muslim"

Read the Qur'an to find out how a Muslim is defined, and how he must act in the face of falsehood.

Down with all the 'asleep-at-the-wheel' Muslims at ChowQ....

Re: # 45 D.M.

"many sufis used similar and even greater "fraud" to convert hindus..."

And that is why I oppose this spiritual opium called 'sufism'.

Islam (complete submission to Allah's Will) is always active, never dead!

It is fully alive all around now!

Re: # 41
Don't spank Pinky Baby now; I've already given her a strong dose!

Re: # 40
Good going, keep that up!

Re: # 38 Pinky Baby
"....but saying Muhammad is his prophet is false"

How do you know unbelieving Pinky?

Recite your 'kalima' as follows:
There are mutiple gods in heavens, and Pinky is their sole distributor.

Re: # 103 Yes. heard a little about the book. Too scietific for a Jatt brain though...

Re: # 31 A.M.
"I still wonder , how they managed to make different IDs and how they obtained multiple passports."

Just today on BBC they showed Indain Punjabis doing a roaring forged documents' business!

I hope the New York Axeman and his Hell's Angels enjoy reading your revelations!

The dots do connect...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 68

B Kissan sb

I am not Paki I dont have any part in its policy

"You personally if you have the slightest bit of honesty should have to admit that there is the tiniest possibility that your religion is not the result of pure unadulterated revelation from God and that therefore you should be wary of actions that if your religion wasn't correct would classify as criminal......."

Problem Ahmedie too do not want to give you that right They belive in all that except they think Mirza is last prophet blah blah But still Qoran Mohommed etc. Thats why if they say they are Rajneshi there would be No problem

There are many sects in Islam that think they are tail, head ,body anatomy of mohommed there supreme leader of Muslims and that too of ALL muslims finally

Re: # 100; Charlie

the DNA is quite happy where it is sir "selfish" though it is, controlled by an 'organism' seemingly in control of its destiny...... have you heard of the "seven daughters of eve"? by the way

Re: # 28 Bhangg

"ahmedis are doing the right think IMO in defining themselves as muslims."

They will finally lose! A lame leopard cannot ever change its spots.

"so they took the safe way and formed a sect WITHIN islam to practice and preach some new-found wisdom."

Safe way? By creating yet another schism within God's religion? And such schismatics will be dealt with severely in this world and the hereafter by the Highest Authority.

Are you a real Q-cumber, or an ardent supporter of human rights as envisioned by the Untidy Nations?

And what WISDOM have these schismatics bestowed upon their brain-washed followers?

DECEPTION galore!

Re: # 63
[...why anyone in their right mind would want to be identified as a muslim ...]

Good question. In old days, the answer was simple - life and property... you either convert or die... These days, it just helps you save yourself in a@@pound prisons... :)

+++

Before you pakis go ballistic - I have same question about hanoods too - when I see these bunch of white people wearing dhoti, jumping up and down like fools in Hare Krishna movement... Last heard, they are even staging plays on Mahabharata... :)

#97 Cheema Sahib, A rose smells like a rose. If it doesn't, rose should go and have its DNA checked up... :)

Re: # 93

Kulli, I think I understand what you are saying. And I agree...Religious affiliation, sexual orientation and salary slips are our personal things. There are seveal other "non-personal" exciting things to be discussed. Why not take a start there... And be "personal" with the ones who feel "easy" with it.

and I leave you guys in the company of my "ass-adite heretic" friend for a bit

Khuda hafiz

Re: # 92; Charlie

you are behaving in a very predictable way for a jatt sir! ... that can be worrying I reckon

Re: # 63
Hamidm.Pakistan army is inwane your pops glory days are history so dreams of beaing naqli moghul
Migrate to India .there is endles supply King Fischer brews for you .Engineers like Moorthy can poay more than your ghetto Detroit dying asphlat

Re: # 24 Nihilist

"Will it be Islamic act for a third party to force someone to sign a declaration?"

One Nihilist asking another Nihilist!

You want an answer from the New York Axeman? He's not even a good Q-cumber, leave aside being a practising Muslim!

Beter luck next time....

Re: # 23 Barbeque Tonight

"The author asks the logical question of who is he to swear about the falseness of a prophet."

If the author is uncomfortable, he should not travel and live without a green passport. The LAW of Pakistan has been re-written and the Q-cumbers have been declared what they truly deserved to be declared for their falsehood and self-delusion. Who are you, their defense lawyer?

"....the same logic can equally be applied to the Kalima. To swear to the truth of something you cannot know to be true is to be dishonest and anyone swearing the Kalima is swearing on something they do not know to be factual."

This is FAITH love, not some communist non-sense. Keep your logic restricted to Greek philosophy please. How do you know your mata-jee or pita-jee really love you? Does your wife love you too? Ask her to logically explain why she must not cheat behind your back.

"They first accept Islam to be true and Mohd to be the final messenger and then they are stuck in the loop unable to get out. This is the crude methodology of a brain-controlling cult."

This 'crude methodology' has been practised since long. The Way Allah wants us to live is fully described in His Book; why must you cry now? Live with it. Since you're not 'stuck in THIS 'loop', why beat yourself dead?

"If you accept Islam to be true then all of the intolerance that Islam teaches has to be accepted too"

What intolerance? Go read the Qur'an! If speaking God's Words and doing his bidding is 'intolerance', you must be under the influence of 'bhangg'!

"because you are not one to challenge the "word of Allah" being a mere human being."

At least you got THIS right!

"even trying to interpret won't work because the intolerance of Islam for non-Islam is unescapable for someone who reads it literally."

The Book does speak to mankind metaphorically (as moral lessons and instructions) through many verses. Have you been reading moron Rushdie?

"make the big step of accepting humanity and dumping Islam."

You'll wind up in humanity's waste-bin in doing that!

"The Krbhatti's, Zeemaxes, Tahirs, Urstruly's, Masadi's etc have no humanity left to speak of..."

Come have tea with me; Laddu ran off the moment I invited him over!

"see Islam for what it is, an evil fraud."

Your wicked comments will be forwarded to the ChowQ Stuffed!

"Another is that this illustrates the current 'unique' evil Islam is propagating....other religions and countries have long abandoned such treatment of heretical beliefs...."

What 'current unique evil'? If your country was run over by the Reds, would you run away on a 'yatra'? Entire countries have been gobbled up by the swindling neo-colonists, all in the name of 'regional balance' and 'interests'. Interesting indeed!

What OTHER countries have done to Christianity is their own sorry business; stop worrying about Islam and Pakistan.

"Another point is that bigots like Tahir and Zeemax have been taught that this persecution of Ahmediyyas is ok"

I was not taught THIS; I read about their fraudulent founder, analysed his teachings, and derived my own conclusions with a little help from what has already existed in black and white since long; in short, I grew up! You are completely ignorant about who you're defending here.

"because anyway Ahmedis believe themselves to be true Muslims and right in their beliefs and other Muslims to be following the wrong path"

The Q-cumbers can believe anything they like as long as they don't open their mouths about their well-documented falsehood!

"the perversions that Jamaati thought has indoctrinated people like Tahir and Zeemax et al"

Continue believing in the power of Aswaria Rai-Bachan, I will return to praying to the Lord of all mankind.

Shanti.

PS: No more non-sense from you now.

Charlie, there may be some validity to your analysis and the way you feel. In general world, people usually don’t go and question about people’s beliefs. Last nigh I hung out with 3 hindu guys, a beautiful Afghan girl, a beautiful girl from Gyana (of Indian UP/Bihar origin) a beautiful white girl, and I had a blast. I met them at a fundraiser for Desi youth. No one asked me if I was Ahamdi or a gandoo or a chootiya. When people start questioning me how deep I shove my head up Mirza Sahib’s bund, I stop meeting with them.

nb, you are probably right.

Cheema ji, Charlie is also a Cheema. Keray pind ay tawada?

Re: # 62
Mouzumdar Bhai

But independence is GOOD for the majority one man one vote.How independence is bad for yadav dalits non english speaking dhoti chappal wearings .By and Large no one wants to be goverened by thousands miles away

Kulli Meray Yaar,

Belive me, I always had very soft corner for Ahmediyya Muslims. However, more I am interacting with them, more I realize that they are very ordinary people with ordinary ideas to present...

Sorry, if you were hurt by my recent analysis of Ahmeddiya muslims. But I am disappointed too. And it is my frustration coming out...

Ahmediiya Chicks are hot though...

Re: # 85; Kulharee

sorry my fault; I thought you meant hamidm sahib (didn't see the Charlie reference)

that would have been sacreligious!.....there are very few I respect as much as hamidm sahib here

Charlie, I'm telling you that some people look at Muslims in the same way you look at Ahmedis. Keep that in mind.

NB, Hindus and "mainstream" Muslims are very large in numbers. You will find all types of hindus and muslims everywhere...
Traditinal Hindus might avoid eating with Muslims or vice versa... However, there are several hindus and muslims who do take a step forward and inter-mix with peoples from other religions. No religious authority penalizes them for their actions.

On the other hand, Ahmeddiya Jamaat forces its rule to its followers and whoever crosses their line is thrown out of Jamaat.

Re: # 55

In Democracy Majority rules the

Khojas Agas Qadianis minority among muslims and

Brahmins Nehru Patel Shynma prasad Pandi Malliva joshi(6 7%) Caused it

Who is calling the shots ArjunSingh Lallu Yadav ...Maya vati :may not be in nuclear deal )but she rules over Brahmins .
Of course Sardars are not Brahmins nor 1/2 parsi Rahul

Charlie, you met Mirza Masroor Ahmad KM5? Yeah he as real as they come, so consider yourself blessed. I hope you kissed his hand.

AK Saab, I was just teasing Charlie, because his only motivation to hang out with Ahmadis is for meeting Ahmadi chicks.

Re: # 83; nb

....must be

Charlie, I have heard a lot of Hindus say the same thing about Muslims. It must also be true then?

Re: # 80; Kulharee

why not sir?

#Kulli, I met your khalifa Khamis a few days back. Is he a real Ahmedi?

Hamid Saab, you are “other�.

Charlie, is that why we need a longwinded declaration on applications for passport? Lemme give you an inside Ahmadi information: No Real Ahmadi (fake may be) will meet with someone like you. Seriously.

Re: # 77; hamidm sahib
[[until somone on this forum can explain wht tha heck it is all about]]

It is all about "nothing" sir

While I have seen Shias and Sunnis praying together in several mosques, Ahmedis don't offer prayers behind Imam of any other sect. If you offer prayer behind a non-ahmedi, you are thrown out of Ahmeddiya Muslim Jamaat.

This small example shows how Ahmedis think about mainstream muslims...They themselves believe that they are the "real muslims" and rest of the muslims are "fake muslims".

Even Sir Zafarullah Khan didn't offer Funeral prayer of Mr. Jinnah and stood in a corner while Namaz e Janaza was being offered. And it happened long before Ahmedis were decalared non-muslims.

Out of several Ahmedis I have met in recent years, I have yet to see a "moderate Ahmedi" while moderate Sunni and Shia individuals are dime a dozen.

Re: # 76

kulharee,

great idea! ..... however i think we should not have a column for 'hindoo' because it is not a real religion ..... not really .....until somone on this forum can explain wht tha heck it is all about, we should leave it off your proposed form .........

..... more importantly, people should be allowed to check multiple religions in case, like me, they are not sure

At present the purpose of declaration is nothing more than to ridicule Ahmadis for their faith. If the purpose is to collect data about people’s religion (for whatever sinister purposes – I am thinking Holocaust) then there are much easier ways to do that. Redesign the form with a column with multiple choices for religion, and people can check off their respective faith: Sunni, Shia, Christian, Buddhist, Ahmadi, Wahabi, Hindu, Muslim, etc. this way, no one will feel mocked and no Muslim will be signing off on stupid declarations: a win-win for all.

krbhatti,
On another board you were protesting against treatment of Ahmadi students. Here you are saying that they deserve what they get becuase they would do the same if in power.

Why don't you clarify your position once and for all?

Do you support the Pakistani state punishing Ahmadis for calling themselves muslims and practicising Islamic rituals?

Re: # 20 Daddu
"Next time these rascal Pakis are going to make hindus sign - "I declare that Hindus are munafiqoons and should either face the sword or should pay jizya"

What will never happen must not lead you to utter "saale beti---"

Why are you imagining useless things, and must you cling to a past whose custodian you can never claim to be?

Re: # 70 Bhatti

dentists were iron-mongers and black smiths till about some 150 years back....just thought I would add this to the mix

BKisan:"Zakir Naik responds that because Muslims "know" Islam is true whereas non-Muslims merely believe their religions to be true it is justified as fake teachings cannot be allowed to be taught."

Now that is an interesting take. "know" and "beleive"
It is very very kaalien?

Re: # 68

Bkisan,

Zakir naik is a an entrepreneur, who had done good for himself by putting up the shop for religion, so what he says does not amount to anything for me.

As far ahmadis are concerned, I suggest that you talk to them, and ask them what status they give to those who are non ahmadi muslims?

Re: # 67

Cheema jaani,

What I was referring to was 'expert power'. It never meant that I cannot discuss with doctors or I should not. I was talking about that part where doctors use their specefic body of knowledge to come up with the diagnosis and course of action. Now, you will agree that non-doctors do not possess that knowledge, otherwise there would be no need of doctors...

Re: # 64
BKisan...
Initialy, non-arab slaves (Sindhis, Sikhs, Punjabis, Jews, Persis) used to be the target (in Pakistan). 99% of them migrated to India. But the bloodbath has to continue.... So, now it is between 100%slaves vs lesser evils (Shia,Ahmadis etc...)...

...these scoundrels create organisation like CAIR etc...to put some sh** excuse...like fighting against injustice...

I don't believe anyone claiming divine inspiration for ethnic cleansing is being divinely inspired.

You basically are accepting my points.

The point is you believe you are right, and following divine will, so whatever you do like persecuting heretics is ok because you are right and others wrong.

The doctrine of pre-emptive wars is widely open to abuse and that is why Iraq faced such opposition being largely based on that principle which is a very shaky one.

I saw a Ahmedi video which quotes a Zakir Naik video where he responds to a questioner asking why there is no freedom to preach non-Islamic faiths in Islamic countries. Zakir Naik responds that because Muslims "know" Islam is true whereas non-Muslims merely believe their religions to be true it is justified as fake teachings cannot be allowed to be taught.

The Ahmedi commentator comments that by the same logic non-Muslims should ban Muslims from preaching and practising their religion.

What is good for you should be good for me too. But in Islamic logic of course you are so cock-sure about being right you can just go ahead and deny others rights you demand for yourselves. You don't follow the first principle of humanity that of considering what is good for me should be good for others too.

You use all kinds of Jamaati wipped up hatred ideas about how others are plotting against you, would do the same etc but the basic program of wiping out infidelity using all types of brutal tactics continues and will continue as long as you believe as you do without the slightest humility that your belief could perhaps perhaps be 'wrong'.

You personally if you have the slightest bit of honesty should have to admit that there is the tiniest possibility that your religion is not the result of pure unadulterated revelation from God and that therefore you should be wary of actions that if your religion wasn't correct would classify as criminal.......

Re: # 66; krbhatti
[[I don't understand medicine, so I keep out of it and let the doctors do what they need to do.]]

that would be stupid don't you think? I'd expect any rational human being to have the ability to ask about their illness, probe into various options for treatment and basically have a logical discussion about THEIR health......no where in the developed world would anyone just "accept" something because the doctor said so.....people would ask questions and so they should, before accepting or rejecting the merits of a specific treatment...etc

for your argument, I am afraid the same applies

Re: # 63

Hamidm,

[what i don't understand is why anyone in their right mind would want to be identified as a muslim .........]

If you don't understand, then why don't you keep your nose out of it. I don't understand medicine, so I keep out of it and let the doctors do what they need to do.

Re: # 64

Bkisan,

You are entitled to your opinions and I respect that. Now as you do not beleive in the reveleation of Muhammad (PBUH), so you are attributing the 'ethnic cleansing' to the Prophet (PBUH). Had you beleived in his being divinly inspired, you would not have said that - right?

Now tell me that can I have the same attitude towards Ahmadi Prophet, because I do not belive him (i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) being divinly inspired, and then use the right of 'preemption' (thank you US for making this doctrine popular) against them?

According to you my logic was Jamati logic 101. Now let us see what gems of wisdom you will come up with. I am all ears..

Again Krbatti uses his Jamaati logic 101 which says we are persecuting Ahmedis because that is what they "would" do to us if they were in the majority.

This is Islamic logic. We are persecuting because of 'imagined' persecution we would face, so ergo, our persecution is justifiable because we imagine others might do it to us. Actually you are persecuting because that is what your religion teaches. Mohammad destroyed a rival mosque and used a 'revelation' he had that the rivals were planning to assassinate him. He ethnically cleansed Jews based on 'revelations from Angels' that they were secretly planning to kill him by dropping a stone on him. So Islamic logic means you imagine terrible motives in your rivals, even those you have a pact with, and based on those imaginations you persecute them, exile them or commit genocide on them. This is Islam as practiced by the prophet of Islam and his followers throughout history.

The Krbatti's, Tahirs, Pakistan Govt lawmakers are only following this logic to its natural conclusion.
They have surrendered fully to Islam (submitted)and will commit crimes against humanity under its spell.....

what i don't understand is why anyone in their right mind would want to be identified as a muslim .......... you don't see people lining up to be classified as barbarians, pedophiles, polygamists, suiciders, homiciders, misogynists, murderers, syphilitic whores or lepers - do you ?

......... i think ahmedis should consider themselves lucky .... unfortunately, some of us are born with the condition and cannot leave the crazy flock without being branded an apostate and beheaded after a frenzied jumaa ritual .......