Musharraf's Resignation and Beyond

Re: # 1 BJwho?
First of all one needs to determine what they mean when they proclaim Democracy?

Does this mean replicating the US system under which the elites get all the breaks while the general public is oppressed and fooled in the name of so-called democracy and the poorer are further impoverished?

Does the only feature of democracy happen to be the ability to cast votes and elect some people who then go to oppress the voters for four more years, make big incomes and give themselves a big raise every year and additionally accept bribes from their lobbyists to enact and implement their favorite legislation for protection of their cronies and have a good time womanizing and admiring their very own criminal acts?

Or, is this aspiration for democracy based on the same priority which dictates that everything that is Made in USA is supposedly next to none?

Does having a democratic system promotes the existence of foreign lobbying groups such as AIPAC & the Anti-defamation League to promote matters of their interests creating hatred against certain people, soveriegn nations and while maintaining favorites and pleasing them to keep the wheels of the cycle of economy revolving, that have nothing to improve for the people of the USA?


Does democracy of this nature appears so enticing to the people of Pakistan, or, they wish to adopt the type of democracy that provides equal rights for all free from discrimination of all types, maintaining a "welfare state" where the democratic head feels concerned to fulfill his/her duties as the head of state and assures that no one in his/nation goes to sleep hungry?

Unless the people of Pakistan deviate from meaningless rut of democracy and first find out what democracy means for their given nation and what democracy spells like for their consumption, there is no sense in the urge of Pakistanis to seek democracy because the democracy the majority of people dream about for their homeland of Pakistan it is hard to come by.

Be sincere and fondle your hearts and minds and ask yourself the question whether you wish to impose replica democracy of USA in Pakistan or would you rather opt for a democracy that goes beyond the show window and provides for the common person a life where his/her needs are fulfilled without resorting to the connections or bribery politics, as long as these curses don't depart our life and system for governing no real implementation of democracy that they dream of, means no more than bogus democracy in the name of democracy.
Therefore each and everyone must first know before endorsing the so-called democracy as to what they expect from the term of "democracy" since it appears that this word goes no farther than what a common person perceives democracy to be.
Log live Pakistan and may the hypocrites be removed from the path of democracy, ameen

Re: # 115 Hamslammer

"..after i lost more than 25% of my assests because of my faith in the paki rupee which, like the koran, is turning out to be worth less than the paper it is printed out.."

What a worthless fellow!

Re: # 285
Pinku...
I can refer to teaching of Ramakrishna...

One fisherwoman was visiting her gardener (mali) friend. Friend offerred the best room to the fisherwoman. Somehow, that lady was not getting proper sleep as the room was filled with aroma of flower. At midnight,she woken up her friend and requested her to shift her to a different room, where there will be no smell of flower.She is not able to sleep with that smell. She carried her fishing net to the next room enjoyed deep sleep for the rest of the night...

It is really funny to hear sermons from these arab slaves about bathing,smell etc...

Re: # 288
Criticism for mere criticism is all such people do Ijaz saheb such people cant contribute anything constructive or positive and are no better than termite for the nation of Pakistan.

This habit of criticizing is just another kind of addiction and unless they go through this routine their toilets remain deprived of a daily flush.

Re: # 281 Typical Not-So-Sharif follower.

As long as opportunists such as # 281 are around, no matter who rules Pakistan they will make sure that they drown with him regardless of how much damage the nation faces.

So rant, rant and rant all you care too, but rhetoric stands out as rhetoric.

Its the selfish politicians and those supporters who care to be the beneficiaries of their culmination that are going to drown the nation more than once.

Bonga aka Chumbo cannot progress anywhere beyond the limits of it's vision meanwhile an army of Chumboes continues to grow bigger.

As far your dumb claim to the ownership of Pakistan is concerned Pakistan is Pakistan and does not belong to the impure of your stature.

Perhaps your tahmed was wrapped on your head when you distributed mithaee in 1999 clapped, beat drums and break danced.

A hypocrite identifies his cronies based on his firsthand knowledge.

Re: # 288; ijaz

well said sir!

tahmed,
We inbred and resident Pakistanis live in interesting times day in and day out.
'Rule of Law' is a very good political slogan and cliche. Considering the ground realities, the Rule of Law in the truest sense has laways been violated and exploited. In a country, where ruling elites do not hesitate to construe religion for political ends, what better do you expect........ In a country whose leaders can sacrifice national interests for their personal benefits, what else do you expect........ In a country where power elites are ready to sell their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers without any moral limitation, what else do you expect.

We as citizens wish for the Rule of Law. We can only try which we do. We cannot force it down the throat of an establishment that has other motives and linkages.

#270 Posted by bulleya,

No. People with your mindset are the only nangaa ones.

My comments on the well written ilog by HP that are relevant to this thread reposted because I love reading my writing especially when it busts the mythology of the enslavers of humankind....even though (as the Quran says) the hypocrites might detest it!

HP sahib,

salam and greetings of peace. As you know we agree on many of the points raised in your well written piece. Two points are worth reiterating: i) The Pakistan Army wants to save face, it has been damaged during its past rule and its front line man through which they want to rule is Zardari. He is therefore their/ and the US's natural choice for president. It is not martial law that is the problem at the current time, like I said the US is willing to incorporate the establishment civilians into the power equation and NS is the only hurdle in their way, his wrinkles they are trying to iron out. The military is not altogether happy with this situation with maintaining a civilian face but they have no choice at the current time, such was the damage Musharraf did to it, which was the unintended noble consequence of his otherwise barbaric rule. By orders of the president of the US there will be no martial law for the foreseeable future, so I think. The PPP and the Army are on the same side now, it is an uneasy coincidence of needs but a coincidence it is.


ii)Whenever the US officials bicker about things it is for public consumption. The elite are quite unified as a group as far as broad policies go, and the State department, CIA and Pentagon know who dominates the hierarchy of determination in the US. The bickering is for public consumption.

That said, I would appreciate the comments of brother Tahmed on this piece. If I wrote it he would dismiss it off hand as pipe dreams and conspiracy, but since he has more respect for you he might give it some thought.

Have a nice day,

TNI, Masadi

Keep it real, never surreal, and stay away from the Bars and English Gin houses that are a "social personification of the stupefication of man under the political economy of capitalism" according to Karl Marx!

Add to #284 Posted by pinku

That doesn't mean that you can not find good smelling Indians in USA, you have to chose right place, right people and right nose, you can find tons of them. But you don't need to do that hard work, because there are plenty of americans ready to be smelled any time:-)

Re #278 Posted by bubba,
May be somebody replaced his itur with Garlic paste, some Pakistani??

There is a reason for almost everything, except for existence of God and his world:-)

Indians do not end up in USA because of tehir good health, high status or beauty, it is mostly based on education and most of them are from middle classes and in case of South India many are from lower middle classes as well. While for Pakistanis people who end up in USA are mostly from upper middle class and numbers are not that many (privileged few). And I am talking about people whom we meet in general, meaning professionals, not taxi-wallas or illegal immigrants from two countries.

Re #277 Posted by ajeya,
ajeya, you are having too much fun here, while people are thinking hard about real problems:-)

Ahmedzai: while no doubt the elected govt has done what the rogue dictator did not do in seven years - outlaw taliban and reject their calls for "truce" when pinned down - this is something any normal govt would have no choice but do.

for musharraf, taliban were his ticket to being the "indispensable man" for the US - and the ticket for his quieting opposition at home.

This has nothing to do with Zardari - whose bizarre behavior to date makes him a poor bet as national leader.

#280 Typical ranting by MQM hypocrites.

As for your "Long Live Pakistan" - enough of this hypocrisy. Pakistan does not belong to those who stood by a dictator in trying to enslave what you consider "the rest of Pakistan".

All those who licked the opportunity to re-enter politics were administering the hypocrite that is embedded within each of these politicians and "every one" attempted to get on the record as if they were really conveying condolences at BB's demise.
This list includes every aspiring so-called politician of the current era whether they represent PPP, PPPP, Jamat-e-Islami, JUI, ANP,MQM Tehreek-e-Insaaf & many others while this extended to include the EX-CJP and many others who wanted to cash in on this opportunity to gain exposure in the media and validate their existence.
They knew that the unfortunate demise of BB has triggered a fury of sympathizers all over and this uncalled for event within the design of Pakistani Style democracy imminently guaranteed a major success for the Pakistan People's Party, this produced a serious shock among the so-called politicians because they knew no matter what they promised to the people of Pakistan if not everyone a great majority was going to honor BB by voting for her political party.
If it was not for the demise of BB things would have been somewhat different on the day of general elections although PPP may still have counted a large number of votes in their favor but not quite as overwhelming.
This was the best opportunity for AZ to re-enter or the arena knowing that since he is BB's husband all eyes were looking in his direction, the arena that BB has forbidden for him while alive knowing his level and intellect when it comes to piggy-backing to every transaction carried out in Pakistan even if he anticipated the slightest financial gain, this is all AZ is about.
He has done it before with limited powers and unlimited chaperoning & protection by BB and he is guaranteed to do it again.
Imagine his creation of BB's will and production of the same nominating him the Chairman or Co-chair of the party, a party that preaches democracy yet selects instead of electing their chairperson! the hyphenating of the name of lesser Zardari appending -Bhutto to it at 18-19 years of no Pakistani experience, over-riding several other balanced political intellects within PPP who all now bow to AZ & BZ-B.
What a joke of the nation of Pakistan is being made and how long these jugglers will continue to juggle with Pakistan, as it is there is every type of problem existing for the people of Pakistan yet these jugglers are so busy with their own innuendos.
What happened to the people of Pakistan who are being tampered with on a non-stop basis for all these decades? and yet they are fooled over and again by these jugglers who have robbed the nation in past and will continue like habitual dacoits.
All those cases that were established against Az took place during the era of NS yet they shook hand with a wicked smile on their faces when BB was killed. AZ wants UNO to investigate this tragic event although a great number of Pakistanis and outsiders place as a suspect in the removal of BB as well as her brother Murtaza Bhutto.
Against all ethics the EX-CJP also visited AZ in person while there were still active issues on the table in courts of Pakistan against AZ, the same EX-CJP when released from house arrest accurately declined with jurisprudence to see the ladies of "Laal Masjid" who came to congratulate and greet him on his release based on the same grounds but went to meet AZ?
Long Live Pakistan

Re: # 222
Zia Ul Haq marhoom will have to revisit to teach him.

Re: # 276 Posted by ajeya on August 26, 2008 2:33:43 pm

Sorry to jump in, but here Hamid Sahib is right.

Recently, I had the misfortune of being at a location where a hindu indian walked by and he smelled terrible with his "itur". Maybe the "itur" did not get along with his body odor, which I am sure the "itur wallah" could recommend a better type of "itur".

All in the group turned their head to look at who just walked by, and how smelley he was. I ended up providing that this person had the misfortune of using some "ituer" and that this was not his body odor.

Hopefully this clarifies some of the issues, generally indian hindus have with their skin odor.

Also desis usually clean themselves with water - not just toilet paper like the "whites" (except Islamists who probably clean themselves with imported sand). :)

#275 hamidm2

[.... if it makes you feel any better about yourself, i will grant you that people can change .....]

Don't worry, I feel mnore better about myself than you can ever comprehend.

[.. but it takes many many generations ..... a few indians might be writing code, but most of them are still squatting on railroad tracks....]

Your "white men" were squatting anywhere and wiping themselves on grass and leaves not so long ago. Also, India started with 347 million people (more than the current US population) at independence, with a country half the size of the US - which had already been independent for many many decades. India started off with a more than 80% illiterate population - and guess what - it WAS the British to blame. If you can blame Bush for your hemorrhoids after 8 only years, you can surely blame the British after 300 years of rule for the very low literacy rates.

[and even those who are doing cutting-edge research smell just as bad ........ sorry to burst your bubble]

If you take a blind smell test (I can see you smelling desis blindfolded), you'll actually find that the desis smell better almost always - desis that you would come across on the average lead a more disciplined life and take a bath daily - which is more than you can say about most Americans - don't confuse a liberal application of deodorants for cleanliness. The blonde secretary in your office that you have the hots for has a yeast infection from consistent bad hygiene, and maybe some genital warts to boot.

Appearances are deceptive.

[.... in any case, here we are talking about indians with slightly better looks and a bad attitude - pakis ..... ]

Not all Pakis have "slightly better looks". We do watch TV.

Re: # 274

ajeya,

.... if it makes you feel any better about yourself, i will grant you that people can change ..... but it takes many many generations ..... a few indians might be writing code, but most of them are still squatting on railroad tracks and even those who are doing cutting-edge research smell just as bad ........ sorry to burst your bubble

.... in any case, here we are talking about indians with slightly better looks and a bad attitude - pakis .....

#259 hamidm2

Also, hamidm, you have to be less miopic about history. Things change quickly. People change quickly. Look at the current day Afghans. Can you imagine that these uncivilized murderous Islamists used to be peaceful Buddhists once, or peaceful Hindus before that? The same "unsophisticated" desis that you see on the streets of India today could be having children writing the latest software tomorrow, or doing cutting-edge research.

Read some history. Instead of these shallow cliches about how the white man is superior to everyone else, you'll get a better perspective of things.

#259 hamidm2

[masadi,

.... if what you say is true and tahmed is talking about the white man's rule and his law for the subordinates, then i am with him ....... a long time ago my grandmother (dgod bless her soul) used to say the same thing: "angrez kay zamanney mein atta ath annay mun hota tha, aur mulk mein aman o amaan tha" ..... i will up dinesh d'souza's two cheers for colonialism to three]

Before the British left India, there were 3 famines when millions died. After the Britich left India, India became self-sufficient in food within about 15 years. No more famines ever again.

When the British left India, India did not have the ability to manufacture it's own salt (hence Gandhi's Salt March). After the British left India, in 6 decades now we can put a satellite in geo-synchronous orbit (which even the British cannot).

Instead of quoting your not-so-upto-date-on-world-affairs grandma, grow some self-esteem. You are (even if you are a half-breed) the proud inheritor of a culture that was writing philosophy when your white man was chasing pigs with sticks.

Re: # 270

bulleya saheb:

agar hammam main subb nangon main say aik himmat wala nanga kapray maang lay toh uss ka saath daina chahiye keyon kay uss nay itni himmat to kee :-)

Hello to all participants of Pakistani origin and to those interested in Pakistani politics.

Here is my take on emerging political situation in Pakistan:

1. PML N cannot leave aside Judges issue, because it was its primary manifesto. People voted for it in the Punjab and the Pakhtunkhwa (NWFP) on this issue. Sitting in opposition is the best bet for it to gain public support for next elections. (1) It wants to project itself as a party that will now stand for principles rather than for expediency and (2) take a backseat, wait and see from the sidelines as the ruling coalition of PPP, NAP, MQM, JUI F and few bandwagon politicians take on an extremely sensitive issue of taking Talibans head on. I foresee some ‘attractive’ politicians from PML Q to join PML N in the near future.

2. PPP cannot afford to restore judges for a number of reasons, mainly (1) CJ’s views and previous injunctions on missing people, (2) perceived reverse ruling of the NROs by deposed judges, (3) judges and their supporters seem to be closer to PML N than to PPP.

3. NAP has to align with PPP, because it knows that it can get NWFP back on course of progress if the extremists are defeated once for all.

4. MQM has to align itself with PPP because of (1) it is scared of recently increasing Talibani presence in Karachi, (2) political situation with Sindh where it has to share power with PPP for delivering the goods, and (3) Inability of PML N to burry its hatchet with them after the elections.

Although I am not a Zardari or PPP supporter, I am willing to give them the benefit of doubt this time on account of the following reasons:

1. Recent pronouncements against extremists in Pakistan. PPP is not willing to compromise with Talibans and other militants. Please compare their recent pronouncements and their stance on the matter with that of Musharraf’s.

2. Zardari and his PPP will be under scrutiny of a strong opposition, the USA because of its interest on War on Terror, and its new coalition partners – ANP, MQM and JUI F.

zeemax#: saeed and not saleem........the rest of the post if quite factual.....

Round 1: a) nawaz's hooligans, led by khwaja saad storm the supreme court physically, when they feel it may rule against nawaz...(khwaja saad says he had no intention to storm, but things got out of control....his own words, which he told me and a few other people)

b) CJ sajjad shah is removed by his own court, with the assistance of tarar (who becomes president out of the blue).....the court includes saeed-uz-zaman.....

Round 2: a) musharraf carries out a coup....saeed uz zaman takes a stand as cj and resigns.....

b) coup is endorsed by a court which include iftikhar.....who takes oath on a pco......

Round 3: a) iftikhar takes stand against musharraf.....justice dogar conspires to remove iftikhar....

now nawaz is the flag bearer of judges movement......saeed is the candidate for president of this movement.....and the cj iftikhar is the symbol of this movement.......

....iss hammamm mein sab nangay hein......

based on the above, dogar will take a stand in a few years, and will be removed by the govt and assistance of someone in this court......

Hamid writes ".... this might be true for 'inellectuals' who sit around in smoke filled cafes with other loosers, 'thinking' and whining about the the elite ..... it is not true for real people who can always 'work' (a four letter word for the whiners) their way up like my sprinkler guy ..."

Salam and greetings of peace (for now) to you Hamid sahib. How are you feeling today? cholestrol in check?

That quote wasn't meant for illiterates, it was meant to be contemplated upon. For every one "sprinkler guy" who makes it there are hundreds of thousands that keep working hard and still not making it, because those "losers, sitting at cafes" have been blocked from political access as have the vast majority of the people in whose names decisions are being made to maintain the status quo of elite privilege...

Have a nice day, and get an education,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 267

masadi mian,

.... this might be true for 'inellectuals' who sit around in smoke filled cafes with other loosers, 'thinking' and whining about the the elite ..... it is not true for real people who can always 'work' (a four letter word for the whiners) their way up like my sprinkler guy ....

"We continue to know more and more about modern society, but we find the centers of political initiative less and less accessible. This generates a personal malady which is particularly acute in the intellectual who has labored under the illusion that his thinking makes a difference. In the world of today the more his knowledge of affairs grows, the less effective the impact of his thinking seems to become ... He feels helpless in the fundamental sense that he cannot control what he is able to foresee."
(The Powerless People, by C. Wright Mills, Politics, April, 1944)

#265, Tahmed sahib, thank you for your generosity but no thanks. Please keep your charity to yourself. Your post #265 is the kind of "cheap excuse" posts we have come to expect of spineless folk.

Have a nice day for the judgment is nigh!
TNI Masadi

masadi: this is a charity post for you. have a nice day.

#261 i answered your question in #260, third para. the reason you didnt get it was because of the little wiring problem i mentioned n #260, second para.

hamid writes "angrez kay zamanney mein atta ath annay mun hota tha, aur mulk mein aman o amaan tha"

Similar arguments are presented by the "Middle Class" for Army rule in Pakistan forgetting that fact of the man made famines during the colonial era by the British that killed millions, and forgetting the fact of the vast majority of Pakistanis languishing in poverty due to the policies of the Pakistan Army in the latter case.

Have a nice day for the judgment is nigh..

TNI Masadi

tahmed writes "hamidm #259 " the white man's rule and his law for the subordinates"

such a law exists only inside your and masadi's heads. so, in calling for this, you two are in agreement in your view of the world whereby you are hardwired to see the rest of Pakistan the way you see yourselves - as subhumans, grovelling (in your case) or ranting (in masadi's case) before your gora gods."

Ahmad sahib, salam and greetings of peace. It is quite obvious to all Chowkies that you are the one worshipping the white man, pushing his agenda and try to mask his interference in Pakistani affairs, all for the purpose of keeping Pakistanis subordinate. In this "turning on its head" of the actual facts in a most illogial manner, you have proven nothing. At least Hamid is clear on where he stands, dispicable as that stand might be. You on the other hand want colonization times ten and will be happy cleaning the white man's toilet the rest of your life but hide it to manipulate and deceive.

The CJ has no "law" on his side thus far, he doesn't even have a job in the Judiciary and these manipulations have revealed quite clearly that the white man's "law" for the subordinates and countries that are under his control is the "law" that is prevailing. You want to hide it so that people do not rebel against it, you want to keep it elusive just as the US elite keep the class and race situation in their country "under the rug"- facts that exist in the objective world cannot be so easily hidden by slights of hand like you are attempting to do.

Those that see Pakistanis as sub humans are not those that expose the mechanism that have enslaved our people (like myself) rather they are those that want to perpetuate their slavery to the white man (like you).

Have a nice day for the judgment is nigh
TNI Masadi

Re: # 260

tahmed,

.... you still haven't answered my question about 'which law?' ......

..... i know you are obsessed with the droopy eyed cj and his handlers, but you forget that at the end of the day they are just pakis, like you and i ...... did you see aitizaz rush to endorse zardari for president ? ..... what do you make of that?

.... i wouldn't be surprised if the narcoleoptic judge accepts ten crore rupees and the ambassadorship to fiji ..... the people of fiji have been waiting for him ....

hamidm #259 " the white man's rule and his law for the subordinates"

such a law exists only inside your and masadi's heads. so, in calling for this, you two are in agreement in your view of the world whereby you are hardwired to see the rest of Pakistan the way you see yourselves - as subhumans, grovelling (in your case) or ranting (in masadi's case) before your gora gods.

The law the rest of the world understands today, the law that led the CJ to deny musharraf a rubber stamp to continue as "hosni mubarak", the law that led the CJ to demand habeas corpus for those musharraf "disappeared" is not something you can understand, given your hard-wiring.

So, carry on. You two have my sincere condolences at your poor wiring system.

Re: # 256

masadi,

.... if what you say is true and tahmed is talking about the white man's rule and his law for the subordinates, then i am with him ....... a long time ago my grandmother (dgod bless her soul) used to say the same thing: "angrez kay zamanney mein atta ath annay mun hota tha, aur mulk mein aman o amaan tha" ..... i will up dinesh d'souza's two cheers for colonialism to three ..........

#255 hamidm: "such niceties (i.e. an independant judiciary) apply to civlized societies "

you obviously are confused about cause and effect.

Btw in addition to my comments of :no martial law in Pakistan by dictates of the president of the united states, read this from Dawn, "Federal Information Minister Sherry Rehman admitted that the PPP had signed agreements with the PML-N but claimed that “our other internal and external allies wanted us to take our own route after the resignation of President Musharraf�.

Have a nice day,
Keep it gracious keep it real
TNI Masadi

hamid writes to tahmed "tahmed,

..... you keep on talking about the 'rule of law,
but which law are you talking about"

Salam and greetings of peace to you sage (of the sewers). Tahmed is talking about the white man's rule and his law for the subordinates. I hope that makes his posts clearer to you.

Thank you for your patience but no thanks for the lack of graciousness in your posts,

The always gracious, never tenacious,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 250

tahmed,

..... you keep on talking about the 'rule of law', but which law are you talking about - the tribal law of fata, the sharia of swat, the panchayat law of southern punjab, martial law, or the law of the jungle ? ......... please clarify

..... rule of law and other such niceties apply to civlized societies that have been introduced to indoor plumbing and deodrant; they do not apply to the unwashed masses who still share their living quarters with their pet sheep ..... sorry, but you are old enough to hear the truth

ijaz gul: bye. please think about what i wrote in #250 a bit more.

#252 I never said "under Zardari". so, please dont accuse me of "firing from the hip" without reading carefully what i am saying.

The Rule of Law means an independent SC - the kind demonstrated by Iftikhar, not the kind that Zardari has been promising to consolidate replace one stupid, lawbreaking scoundrel (mush) with another (himself).

Tahmed,
You are again firing at me from the hip.
As for the Rule of Law under Zardari?
Unfortunately, I see many more Unnars, Twin city Scams etc to happen.
I just pray and hope that Preservation of Punjab Base does not add to the woes in this regard.
Bye for now.

an interesting debate.will join in three hours.

#248 ijaz gul: we all know about NS messing with the law - that was in the past. you dont drive looking at the rear view mirror.

i am trying to focus your attention on today's realities - and the reality is that without the rule of law, no nation can progress or offer its citizens a civilized, secure life. That is how important the issue is!! And the reality is that Nawaz Sharif is the only voice in the assemblies that has steadfastly championed this cause.

Leave the bs about "droopy eyelids" to hamidm. You are living in Pakistan, you care about the people of Pakistan. This is the future of Pakistan that is at stake.

#246 excellent pirouete, hamidm sahib.

actually you were rooting for musharraf - but, like genius zardari says, if it aint in the Quran and if urstruly aint swearing this to be the true Hadith, then you can change the story.

Re: # 245
Somehow you always miss my point. Why should rule of law not be important to me? surely it is.

I am talking of effects and not what I feel. The effect is that at the end of the day, the 'Rule of Law Thesis' of NS did not matter. This happened because NS and his team had certain shortcomings in that, despite a very popular pulse of people of Pakistan including us all, proved an anti thesis in itself.What a betrayal.

zeemax #240 i didnt want to disturb hamidm demonstrating how a lota swivels.

Re: # 240

zeemax,

.... who knows how many women were buried alive while the droopy eyed judge slept on the bench ....... read bulleya's post on the judiciary below - after all these years captain clueless is beginning to make some sense ........ there is hope for all of us ...

..... if you remember, you and i were both rooting for nawaz sharif before the election ...... to be honest, i did not have any deep rooted philosophical reason but being a rather superficial person i just thought that zardari, with his badmash moustache and reputation of tying bombs to people's legs, looked like a bigger crook than nawaz and i had also heard that brother shahbaz was a pretty good manager .....

..... now, being a pragmatist i have switched my support to zardari until the next saviour comes along .......


zardari zindabad !

ijaz gul: you never responded to my question on why the Rule of Law is so meaningless to you.

#241 Posted by ijaz_gul,

I just challenged you on facts, not on your individual interpretation. You couldn't answer my questions.

Everyone has opinions. I wasn't talking about those. But thanks for a good debate :)

#239 Posted by bulleya,

At-least you should have got the name right. It's Saeduzzaman Siddiqui, and not Saleemuzzaman Siddiqui.

The rest of your post is uninformed as usual, fed by print media character-assassination. You are strong on ideas but not on linking actual events into meaningful analysis.

#239
"ifitikhar took a stand against musharraf"
oh my goodness!! i never would have guessed!!

"then iftikhar was removed by musharraf"??

now i know where to get the latest news from. field marshall romair's dispatches to chowk!

"......dogar is the current cj"

Goddam!!

"even aitezaz ahsan is confused......"

obviously, he never graduated from the University of Kakul, nursery for future einsteins!!

President Romair Zindabad!!
Vice-President Hamidm Lota Paindabad!!

Re: # 227
Zeemax,
It was NS the Lamb versus Zardari the Fox. In the final analysis NS is outfoxed by Zardari. In the politics of realism and practicalism, there is no space for emotions and sometimes even morals. The law of fishes applies.

aab to haqiqat wazay hai. Arguements ka kiya faida. Mera bhi dil khrab hua magar kiya kareiN, Jab chityaiN ChugH gaiN Khaith.

tahmed32,

Can you ask hamidm2 that recently 5 women were buried alive in rural Sind, and no one to question the local police. Could this have happened when the droopy eyed CJ was in office?

...the story of pakistan's judiciary, makes interesting and strange reading.......chief justices seem to pick and chose when to have courage and when not to......

......nawaz sharif stormed the supreme court of cj sajjad shah, physically....he used another supreme court judge named tarar to split the supreme court and vote out its own sitting cj.....tarar - a totally unknown guy - would go on to become the president under nawaz sharif......

the set of judges who voted out their cj sajjad included a judge named saleem-uz-zaman siddiqui.....this guy eventually became the chief justice.....

saleem's court would, later, be dismissed by musharraf......however, saleem (and five other judges) refused to accept musharraf, and resigned on a matter of principal (interestingly, saleem had dismissed sajjad earlier as his own cj).....

the group that did take an oath under musharraf included a guy named iftikhar chaudhry.....he endorsed musharraf's coup and even gave him the authority to modify the constitution!!.......

.......a few years later, iftikhar grew some balls, and took a stand against musharraf (interestingly, he had earlier taken an oath under musharraf, which had resulted in the removal of his cj saleem......saleem had earlier assisted in removing his own cj sajjad).......

....then iftikhar was removed by musharraf, with the assistance of justice dogar, who became the latest addition in the list of judges who assisted in removing their own cj (iftikhar in this case, who had assisted in removing saleem who had assisted in removing sajjad)......

.......now iftikhar is in abeyance trying to become the cj again......dogar is the current cj.......and saleem is nawaz's candidate for president......while nawaz, after storming the supreme court and dismissing sajjad, is the flag carrier of an independent judiciary.......

based on this history, at some point dogar is going to grow some balls and will take a stance against the sitting govt.....after which he will be removed by one of his own justices, who will then become the cj.......

during this whole time, only two guys have been consistent.....musharraf and zardari....musharraf has removed every judiciary he did not like......and zardari has tried to avoid every judiciary which he felt would hold him accountable for his corruption.......

.....the cj's and nawaz have switched priorities as and when needed......

even aitezaz ahsan is confused......he is the voice of the lawyer's movement and is trying to restore iftikhar......at the same time, he recently voted for zardari as the ppp's candidate for president.......even though zardari is the only force which is standing in the lawyer's way in restoring iftikhar......

if this wasn't strange enough.......cj iftikhar's current spokesperson, lawyer athar minallah was, originally in musharraf's first cabinet!!......

..and Easily-mistaken-for-a-gora Hamidm for the Field Marshall's Veep!!

Bulleya for President!!

Outstanding student of KnowledgeCity, Kakul!!

hamidm mian: ....i will have to agree with you.....a crook has been defeated by a bigger crook....(though long term victory may go to the smaller crook)

....anyone looking towards zardari and nawaz as the solutions to pakistan's problems is being extremely naive....they are the problems to pakistan's solutions....

.....after eight years of musharraf, we are almost exactly at the same place......now once the ppp lotas of pml-q join ppp and the pml lotas of pml-q join pml-n, we will be back to square one......

......everyone is in it, together......two days ago, gilani met with pir pogaro to get the votes of his faction of pml, i.e. pml-f, for zardari......

for those who don't know, pir pogaro is the chief pir in the hierarchy of pirs in pakistan.....he is in pml, thus in opposition to ppp, in general......however, his grand-daughter recently got married to gilani's son.....

ppp, pml, military and maulvis all need to be erased from pakistani politics.......unfortunately, these are the only guys in pakistani politics......

so one has to pick and chose the lesser evil at that particular point in history......i think you are starting to realize this also.......i have been saying this since musharraf's coup.......

......for the first three years of musharraf's coup, the army under musharraf was easily the lesser evil......after these three years, things started balancing out, and by the end of the next three years, musharraf and army had risen to the level of ppp, pml and maulvis in term of evil-ness.....then in the last two years of musharraf, he became the bigger evil, in comparison to ppp, pml, and maulvis.....

hence ppp and pml became a better choice, being the lesser evils......amongst these four evils at the moment, one would have to say nawaz is the least of the evils.......hence people will flock to him, now.......

this doesn't change the fact that at the time of the coup, nawaz was, easily the biggest evil......

one has to feel for the maulvis though....they have not had power, yet remain a part of this evil four......may be it is time to try them out, in the center......

#233 please dont disturb Hamidm while he is demonstrating how a lota can spin on a dime.

hamidm: "droopy eyed", "fat fool".

is there anyone at all (other than "hosni musharraf", who has gracefully stepped down from power despite nation-wide protests calling for him to please stay in his wardi as president)who comes up to your exacting standards?

Re: # 231; hamidm sahib
[[prince asif zindabad]]

are you sure you are not short changing His Royal Highness? (?Majesty)

I thought it was King Asif the first (I) or something

zeemax,

..... there is no point in making excuses for the fat fool - the fact that he lost is proof enough for me that he is no match for zardari .......the better crook has won (for now)... he has been beat up and hung out to dry by a prince who read the right book instead of wasting his time on the koran and hadith ...... if you remember, machiavelli was his father-in-law's idol ........ the man has learned well

prince zardari zindabad !

bathing in milk

.... i can't believe you guys are talking about the fat fool of gowalmandi as if he has been bathing in milk sans jalebi...... he is just another crook who was beaten by a bigger crook ...... now he will do anything - including digging up his dead father and selling him to mayo hispital - to save his government in punjab ....... zardari can also throw him a bone for his nihari by letting him run in a by-election ......... hopefully he will be content with chewing on his bone and wait for the next elections to make his move ......... the unwashed masses will soon be baying for zardari's blood, not because he is any worse than the other knaves and thieves, but because the unwashed masses suffer from short attention span in addition to bad body odor ........ it is also very possible that he will die a violent death like his relatives ...........

........ the fat fool just has to be patient and wait his turn - he will be king of this heap of cow dung soon enough ......... in the mean time he needs to do something about redecorating the raiwind palace ... maybe he should take a cue from his brother and excahnge his dumpy wife for someone with better aesthetic sense ..........


prince asif zindabad !

Re: # 226

Zeemax

{Benazir and PPP were more in contact with Bin Ladin than Nawaz Sharif during the Afghan Jihad. You're aware of Naseerullah Babar's role of-course}

According to Rehmat Shah Afridi, NS recieved millions of dollars in the name of jihad directly from OBL. That money was supposed to be distributed to the Afghan Jihadis but was never delivered. BB had also accused NS and OBL for engineering moves against her Govt.

{PML-N had a seat adjustment with PPP in SIND and didn't field any candidates opposite PPP. The question of not getting any seats in Sind doesn't arise.}

Post BB murder, Interior or rual Sindh offered little room for NS to contest any election or that matter any other political party with no strong grass root support.

#217 ijaz gul: would you care to specify exactly what you find stupid in NS actions?

He has emerged as the champion of the Rule of Law in Pakistan. What part of the "Rule of Law" do you have trouble understanding?

#217 ijaz gul: would you care to specify exactly what you find stupid in NS actions?

He has emerged as the champion of the Rule of Law in Pakistan. What part of the "Rule of Law" do you have trouble understanding?

#224 Posted by majumdar,

Ijaz Sahib means Nawaz didn't learn from Benazir's betrayal of Charter of Democracy. See my comment in that respect below. BUT that's not a good parallel with the Murree Declaration. Both were miles apart in implication.

Charter Of Democracy was a document of general principles to be followed SHOULD either of the parties come to power, while BOTH the Murree Declaration as well as 7th August agreement was to take specific measures BETWEEN two Coalition partners already in power. There couldn't have been any unforeseen compulsion for these to be broken by PPP.

Nawaz Sharif would have dealt differently with Benazir had a coalition situation arisen with her, though I think the chance would have been close to zero. Nawaz League would have sat in opposition in the center in her case right from the start. Zardari though, was untested politically - so due consideration was allowed for that by PML-N

#225 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Thanks. My comments:

1. The Charter of Democracy was with and broken by Benazir. Zardari was an unknown surprise quantity as PPP Chairman after Benazir's assassination.

2. Benazir and PPP were more in contact with Bin Ladin than Nawaz Sharif during the Afghan Jihad. You're aware of Naseerullah Babar's role of-course.

3. PML-N had a seat adjustment with PPP in SIND and didn't field any candidates opposite PPP. The question of not getting any seats in Sind doesn't arise.

4. This appears to be from public's point of view i.e in your opinion the public mistakenly thought he stood for principles - but that's not the debate here. However, re "He thought that the CJ issue is a foregone conclusion and used it as a veto to strengthen his power base. In the end he failed in both", not so. According to the latest IRI Poll, 81% of public opinion wants the judges restored. Nawaz Sharif was right on the mark making the issue the #1 priority on his election manifesto.

5. Which errors of judgment?

6. I'm sure he has his eyes and ears too. Every big time politician does. Depends though how one interprets the information.

Zeemax, Majumdar and Romair,
In political terms Nawaz is a Romantic and not a Pragmatic and what MQM terms as Practicalism. His first fault was that he did not assess the ground realities.
1. Though he endeared the COD, he should have had second thoughts after the NRO which in fact was the death of COD. His love affair with COD blinded his judgement.
2. He knew that due to his proximity to OBL in the past, he had to do enough in practicalism to allay the perceptions of USA. He did not do it.
3. His team of think tanks did not war game the results of the elections. His Einsteins should have evaluated why he got no seats in Sindh. Now he must face the humiliation of having missed the boat. Perhaps his major pre occupation was Punjab and his own third term, and Zardari knew how to play his perceptions.
4. Knowing that he had wheeled dealed in the past (OBL, IJI, Hamid Gul Saga, Mehran Bank) to think that he was an idealist and stood for principals would be naive. He thought that the CJ issue is a foregone conclusion and used it as a veto to strengthen his power base. In the end he failed in both while Zardari knew where the fault line was.
5. He and his team are guilty of very serious errors of judgement now as they had been in the past.
6. Most, he did not enjoy the luxury of eavesdropping that Zardari had. His benefactors did it for him.

As an aside, I am beginning to believe that Aitezaz Ahsan is also planted and the Dharna in Islamabad has to be seen in this context.

To add to what Zee sahib says:

If NS had learnt, what would he have done differently?
What would have been the payoffs to each party?

Regards

#222 Posted by ijaz_gul

He did not learn.

Didn't learn from what? Sorry I'm pressing you but I'ld really like to know where he went wrong.

Re: # 218
He did not learn.

zeemax/majumdar #:...it is too early to tell who made a mistake and who didn't.....

perhaps ns should not have gotten into the coalition to begin with....he should have let ppp run around and try to form a majority govt.....and just waited....he should have stated that he will join the govt. after the judges are back.....not before.......

......on the other hand, he needed ppp's support to form the govt. in punjab - the political center of pakistan.....though i doubt, ppp could have allied itself with pml-q......

pml-n's main strength is that it controls punjab - 62% of pakistan's population, and has good contacts with the conservative part of pakistani politics - jamaat etc.......ppp's main strength is that it has representation in every province, and is prefered by the usa......

i think nawaz should just sit tight now.....keep the judges issue in the front.....secure a majority in punjab, by getting as may pml-q mpas with him as possible.......

other than that, he should just relax, and watch the ppp govt. make a fool of itself in the center......if he tries to agititate too much, he will get blamed for destabilizing the ppp govt........

.....ppp has no skills to run the center (or sind etc. for that matter)......all it has are lawyers, pirs, waderas and a few feminists......a good group to launch a protest, but certainly not a group to run a country.....

pml-n has enough skills to run punjab....it has businessmen (small and big), lawyers, a few finance people etc......

nawaz should get his natural allies - apdm, imran khan, jamaat etc. around him.....jui will eventually join him also......he should take as many of the pml-q people on as he can......he should run punjab well, and plan for the next election......

if my predictions are correct, the next election will happen within three years.....ppp cannot run a govt. longer than that.......zardari is going to make a mess of things.....and then the army, from the background, will ask for another election.......

another strength that nawaz has is that his party is without waderas and pirs now.....it is an urban party, which consists of people who are totally committed to him (all the non-committed ones left and joined pml-q)......ppp is still divided into different mindsets......zab and benazir, due to their personalities, were able to keep ideologically different groups like lawyers/minorities/women and pirs/waderas under one umbrella.......i doubt zardari can do that.......

short term victory to zardari.....long term victory to nawaz (if he has some patience).....short and long term loss (as long as zardari and nawaz are around) to pakistan......

#219 Posted by majumdar,

Exactly. Therefore my question to ijaz_gul.

Zee sahib,

NS cudnt have done anything differently. AZ and the establishment wud possibly have asked him to compromise on the judges but that would have destroyed his credibility and support among the masses.

Regards

#217 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Ijaz, I had asked you this question on UP as well but didn't unfortunately get your response.

Where exactly do you think Nawaz made a mistake?

I mean, since entering into Coalition with Zardari, at what point did he do something when he should have done the other thing, and what would have been that other thing?

I just want to know how you (and some others) say he's a bonga :)

masadi and Matloob,
I agree fully and value your views. We will be soon entering the most treacherous and cantakerous phase of Pakistan's history. BB's death has created a very serious leadership void and NS despite all blessings proves a Bonga as ever. In the interim, this void is filled by Zardari who represents the Centcom connection, but for how long. See this.
"WASHINGTON — Zalmay Khalilzad, the American ambassador to the United Nations, is facing angry questions from other senior Bush administration officials over what they describe as unauthorized contacts with Asif Ali Zardari, a contender to succeed Pervez Musharraf as president of Pakistan"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/washington/26diplo.html?ref=asia

Zalmay Khalilzad played a distasteful role in the pseudo-triumphant return of Benazir Bhutto from notorious corruption-fueled exile… namely, the “old friend� was the one of the U.S. officials who convinced her to return on her ill-fated trip to take back Pakistan’s Parliament. We all know how that turned out.
http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/he-just-cant-keep-his-hand-ou t-of-the-cookie-jar/

Re: # 205
How a demon can be demonized further?
AZ is a well known demon in as long as he has been on the horizon of Pakistan's politics, while to a select few he is known to be in this state even before being married to BB which is a known fact that this marriage was imposed too.
Jub geedar key maut atee haye tou woh shehr key taraf bhagta haye haye likewise Zardari is also running towards the slaughter house he is destined for.

Re: # 211
There is no doubt that AZ will face it like he made many face it before. It's now his turn.
Bakray key maan kab tak khair manaye gee, ek na ek din tou churri kay neechay aye gee.

akcheema sahib: but hamidm sahib has been drinking high class stuff from the fine rotten wood liquor stores of boondocks, michigan - and it has only made things worse for him, and so i offer him my condolences.
:-(

Re: # 212

then saab that makes it TWO more things saab, madsadi saab

In #211

One more thing, the Pakistan Army/US choice for "risking" civilian leadership in Pakistan the only person they could settle on,(i.e. Zardari)

One more thing, the Pakistan Army/US choice for "risking" civilian leadership in Pakistan tells us more about those two, the Pakistan Army/US, the only person they could settle on, who would be risk free as far as people power goes in doing their bidding, because he lacks morals of any kind that would relate him to his fellow man, his "use" of the butchering of his wife and his son for his own perversions tells us a lot about what he considers humanity to be.

In other words such a person can be "trusted" to try to double cross the shaitan itself for his own benefits. The shaitan doesn't like being double crossed. This person's days are limited, he will die a violent death, mark these words of mine. Not being a najoomi, I have arrived at this conclusion by putting 2 and 2 together, some of you are stuck on the first 2, the corruption of Zardari and so lose the total picture....He was the prime choice of the US/Pakistan Army for allowing a facade of civilian rule. What does this tell you about the US/Pakistan Army, think about this "total picture", and

Keep it real, never surreal,
TNI Masadi

Later bretheren and sisteren, friends and friendettes,

TNI Masadi

bulleya writes "if history is anything to go by, within three years, there will be an election, and pml will win....it will form the govt., which will last for three years....then ppp again.....

after which martial law."

History has run its course in Pakistan, now new history will be written. There will be no more martial laws in Pakistan per orders of the President of the United States, with its current geography. If the geography changes, then its open season for martial or martian law.

Not being a Najoomi, I have come to this conclusion by putting 2 and 2 together, you my friend are stuck on the first 2.

Have a nice day, and keep it real, not the surreal, let the wounds heal, develop mass appeal, or your mouth seal...

TNI Masadi

hamid writes ". i hate to say this, but i think romair mian might be right and we will see another marial law soon ..."

Hamid sahib, romair isn't right, there will be no more martial law any time soon, per orders of the President of the United States...

Thank you for your patience and understanding,

TNI Masadi

hamid writes "same time as zardari told the fat fool of gowalmandi.."

Hamid sahib,

salam and greetings of peace (for now). Have you heard the saying, "people who live in glass houses...." Last we heard you were suffering from acute obesity...

TNI masadi

tahmed writes "any kind of extra-judicial killing is detrimental to society.."

Ahmed sahib, How goes? thanks for letting us know that the extra judicial killings by the US through its history, especially eliminating Third World leaders it didn't like has been "detrimental to society". Reminds us of the many attempts they made to extra judicially kill Saddam at the beginning of the war you were cheerleading for, and having failed to do so with multiple cruise missiles and j-dam bombs they never the less managed to eliminate several dozen innocents extra judicially.

Keep up the good work of exposing those that are "detrimental to society" and have a good day,

TNI Masadi

An article worth reading

The risk of demonising Zardari

"The truth is that Pakistan's institutions are constantly being bludgeoned by the self-righteousness of the urban educated. It is they who provide the military with the legitimacy that allows well-meaning but illegitimate dictatorships to take root. Pakistan can begin its latest journey in democratic discovery the same way in which all previous journeys have begun. By stacking the deck against political parties, and by rejecting their electoral, legal and moral legitimacy. This is simply preparing the ground for the next coup against democracy. It is ok to dislike Mr Zardari, and to oppose his presidency. Liking something does not make it right, and disliking something, does not make it wrong -- Pakistanis confuse the two at their own risk. Demonising Zardari today will have grave consequences for Pakistan's democratic future."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=132027

Re: # 202; tahmed sahib

in Punjab, until they stop feeding "bhaince ka doodh" to their kids, amongst other rubbish not worth the paper its written on, nothing good will come out of it ..... straight choice, otherwise there will be so many "de ja vus", we'll all have to go on anti-epileptic medication

hamidm: Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

hamidm: Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

asif ali zardari zindabad!
nawaz sharif murdabad!
down with the pco-1 judges!
doen withthe ignorant and unwashed masses!
droopy eyed judge murdabad!
long live prince zardari!

zardari's koran and hadees :

A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise.

Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.

..... the fat men of gowalmandi better watch out - the prince is on the march !


zardari zindabad !

Re: # 197

ijaz gul,


.... i think nawaz sharif is even dumber than he looks - it cannot be a coincidence that this happened at the same time as zardari told the fat fool of gowalmandi to take a hike :

"GENEVA: Swiss authorities on Monday closed a long-running probe into alleged money laundering against late Benazir Bhutto, the former Pakistani Prime Minister who was assassinated in December and her husband Asif Ali Zardari, Swiss news agency reported."

...... on the other hand, zardari can take the the sharif bradran to court for hhudaibiya mills, mehran bank, stealing khar's wife and the horrible interior decor at the raiwind palace ( i think kulsoom should be hung for that atrocity) ....... buy some ganderis (if you can afford them) and watch the tamasha!

...... the unwashed masses finally have the leader they deserve ........

zardari zindabad !

#191 Posted by bulleya on August 25, 2008 8:56:57 am

Now is the time to tell us how you support Kiyani...that way, when he takes over 3 years from now, you can tell us how you supported him when it was uncool to do so...

you know...like you told us after 9/11 you supported musharraf when it was uncool to do so..

O posted this on OTW.
Its a no trump hand for Nawaz. He has a singleton Ace of spade with three dukies. If the 10th move comes in his hand he is the winner. What is that move of Ace?

There are unresolved issues here to challange Zardari who has been cantakerous and treacherous. Nawaz as usual has been Ziddi and dumb.

The issues include his Forged Graduation from some non existant institute in London, which they now call a diploma (surely it is qouted in his bio data etc), constitutional indemity ( I dont know if it needs 51% or 2/3rd majority to pass, an accord he has dishonoured and NRO in light of the Shariah (who can condone whom)

#195 any kind of extra-judicial killing is detrimental to society.

Re: # 194 you never know ... may be some one is going to kill zardari...

#193 hamidm: "i suggest you talk to someone who actually loves in pakistan "

you mean you dont??? i thought it was only the weak and the poor ("unwashed") and those standing up for them (the Chief Justice, and now PMLN) against would-be autocratic rulers you had a problem with in Pakistan.

Re: # 192

tahmed,

.... i suggest you talk to someone who actually loves in pakistan ...... i hate to say this, but i think romair mian might be right and we will see another marial law soon .... nawaz sharif is already meeting with his lawyers to talk about swiss bank cases etc. etc. ....... we are in for more of the same old s*&^ !

#190 hamidm: So, hosni musharraf leaves, and suddenly things started falling in place in pakistan:

1. a credible opposition to keep the government in check in the NA;
2. an excellent candidate for Presidentship that kills many birds with one stone;
3. the taliban are outlawed (something mush didnt do in 7 years);
4. taliban told to surrender or fight - they can no longer play the game of doing banditry and then seeking "discussions" when faced with military action.

Democratic System Zindabad!!

...so the three year countdown has begun.....

if history is anything to go by, within three years, there will be an election, and pml will win....it will form the govt., which will last for three years....then ppp again.....

after which martial law....

in three years, nawaz (plus leftovers of pml-q) sweeps punjab + imran and qazi win in nwfp + baluch nationalist win in baluchistan.......ppp is reduced to sind again....mqm and fazl, as usual, join the party in power (pml)......

that will be the crucial point......will nawaz continue the idioces of before.....or is he really (the only one) reformed by his previous experiences.......

i cannot see how ppp can run the country.....the have absolutely no one who can run a ministry, much less a country......zardari will do what zia and musharraf were unable to do, i.e. destroy ppp.....

...... can the horrible hindoos take their heeng laced smelly bhaji elsewhere? ....please .... we pakis have more important matters to discuss .......

..... the catamite of gowalmandi just left his boyfriend of four months and i am curious to find out what is going to happen ? ..... will mullah fazloo and altaphbhai stay in bed with the kleptomaniac prince in this unholy menage a'trois, or will they go for a truly islamic harem and include asfandyar wali and any other cheap whore who walks by ?

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#186 by Lactate

yeah yeah little man... i men a little whatever you are...

So you're reduced to some lame yelping now? Chal phut!

Re: # 184 yeah yeah little man... i men a little whatever you are...

Re: # 182 nkg: it is not possible for me to discuss any thing with you ... I would have to take you to my dog trainer .... so you can learn a few tricks and are able to communicate better with humans :)

All i have to say to you is, If reincarnation was true.... hypothetically speaking ... then you would have been a BlTCH in previous lifetime and definitely a SUPERBlTCH in next....

#183 by Lactate

hmmm.... if you were a physically challenged special individual naraish_hydra ... then you should have said so before ...

And you should have told me in addition to being a hijRa, you're comprehension challenged as well. I would have gladly translated it to you in Urdu.

its my policy to be nice to physically and mentally retarded individuals :)

And it is mine to translate it to the English-challenged hijRas. You're welcome :-)

Re: # 181 naraish_hydra "and don't beg, Indians like hijRas"? hmmm.... if you were a physically challenged special individual naraish_hydra ... then you should have said so before ...

its my policy to be nice to physically and mentally retarded individuals :)

Re: # 171
Lev.....
Why don't you take you brothers to Pakistan?
That will be better option...
Kashmir was not created by arabs, your masters. What for Indians have to leave that land for arab slaves? Isn't Gandhar, Sindh, Punjab enough to practise this mediaval arab barbarism? Or, you need to spoil more places, such that NATO bombers (F-15 + B1 Lancers) get more options?

#174 by Lactate

We do more than that... but since all you know is internet ... that's all what you get to see.

Umm...great!! Continue to be at it..and don't beg Indians like hijRas to leave Kashmir, cuz they are not going to oblige you.

Re: # 161
Majumder....
It was just stupid excuse...
As per as physical existance is concerned, Indians never posed physical threat to arab slaves. If that would have been the case, first movement should have been to get rid of this mediaval arab barbarism, and those infested with this. Though it would have been the right approach ( Brits had to leave some day or other. They had better option in UK. But what about these arab slaves, scums?). Just to get power, Indian leaders failed to visualise the actual danger, danger closer at home...
The actual problem for moslems were from different angle. These low lives failed miserably in most of the human development parameters. They used to survive on Indian wealth. It was quite sure that after British leaves, Indian will form democracy and that will end the looting of Indian wealth. Pre partition, most of the business,industry,educational institution were run by Indians. Couple of arab salves, though tried to adopt modern education, but
that was paltry. Indian achievement during British period (education, literature, industry) was quite high. Compare the number of schools,colleges and hospitals in present day Pakistan and BD, which was actually established by Indians and Parsi with that of arab salves/moslems. That will provide you the right figure....

Re: # 177 apavitr hindus and farsiban afgans

Re: # 177; majumdar

this "mard-e-momin" sahib sounds awefully similar to another "momim" reza bhai? don't you think?

Levi mian,

Who have you caught?

Regards

Re: # 175 we have caught some (karzai)afgani and hindu evil spys there aswel ... in time !!!

Levi mian,

Just look up the last year stats. For every Kashmiri Muslim who gets killed at least ten Pushtoon Muslims get killed in NWFP/FATA. Why dont you set an example for us evil Hindoos by getting the Crusader Paki-NATO army out of NWFP/FATA first.

Regards

Re: # 172 narish_hydra

We do more than that... but since all you know is internet ... that's all what you get to see.

Re: # 172 narish_hydra

We do more than that... but since all you know is internet ... that's all what you get to see.

#171 by Levitate

now get hindus out of kashmeer who are killing innocent kashmeeris...

Yaar as you guys never tire of telling us, Kashmir runs in your blood. Why don't you shed some for your brethren in distress? Or are you going to continue to beg Indians to get out of Kashmir over the Internet?

now get hindus out of kashmeer who are killing innocent kashmeeris...

#167 by Levitate

All i know is that I am very glad that
we don't have many Hindus in Pakistan.

Yaar we're glad too, for who would have wanted to call you their compatriot?

Levi mian,

All i know is that I am very glad that we don't have many Hindus in Pakistan.

So are we Indians.

The Hindoos and Sikhs that you kicked out in 1947 form the bedrock of Indian entrepreneurship, academia, media and the film industry.

Of course there is no need for you to complain. We gave you Maudoodi, Gen. Zia and Mushy in return.

Regards

#166 by majumdar

Did MKG raise Ram rajya first or did MAJ (pbuh) start TNT first?

This is not about who started what; it is about common sense. Can a man who enthusiastically (perhaps more enthsiastic than even Muslims themselves were) supported Muslims in the Khilafat movement ever have gone on and established a nation that suppressed Muslims?

.....neither Hindoos nor Muslims cud have expected justice from each other in 1947....

Why?? What makes you think so?

I don't know why Pakistan was made.

All i know is that I am very glad that
we don't have many Hindus in Pakistan.

Harishbhai,

Who started the fire. Did MKG raise Ram rajya first or did MAJ (pbuh) start TNT first?

No, ML was not innocent either, neither Hindoos nor Muslims cud have expected justice from each other in 1947 and that's why:

India was divided and Muslim majoirty states separated.
Hindoo majority distt were carved out of Punjab and Bengal and given to India.

Regards

#164 by majumdar

Hindoos were 75%, Muslims 25%

I like your logic Majumdar bhai. Muslims when in minority want a nation because they fear oppression. When in majority or thereabouts, they still want a nation because they form a significant percentage of the population.

MKG's call for Ram Rajya put misgivings in Muslim minds.

Oh so Jinnah despite rallying Muslims in the name of Islam must not be construed as anything but calling for a Muslim nation with secular credentials, but Gandhi merely talking about Ram Rajya must have definitely meant he wanted to establish a Hindu nation. Wow!

3. INC state govt committed atrocities against Muslims as documented in the Pirpur report.

And I presume you'd think the ML was innocent of any wrong doing in Bengal (where it was in power) during the DAD?

Harishbhai,

1. Numbers, Hindoos were 75%, Muslims 25% and as Iqbal said in democracy people are counted not wieghed.

2. MKG's call for Ram Rajya put misgivings in Muslim minds.

3. INC state govt committed atrocities against Muslims as documented in the Pirpur report.

They were rallied in name of Muslim nationhood not for Islam being a state religion.

Regards

And be that as it may, what right did Jinnah have to ask his countrymen to detach religion from their lives when they were rallied for the cause on the basis of Islam? Doesn't it strike you as utterly foolish or deviously cunning, take your pic?

#161 by majumdar

MAJ (pbuh) wanted a state where the Muslims rights would be safeguarded and they would be protected from being an oppressed minority in a Hindoo majority state.

And pray tell us what was the basis behind the assumption that Muslims would be dominated by Hindus?

Harisbhai,

MAJ (pbuh) wanted a state where the Muslims rights would be safeguarded and they would be protected from being an oppressed minority in a Hindoo majority state. He never said that religion will dictate the state policy.

Regards

#155 by akcheema

Isn't that what the founder/father of the nation MAJ (pbuh) stated categorically in his 11/08 speach?

Cheema bhai, this is like a thief who earned all his wealth through stealing advising his heirs to live a life of virtue.

Re: # 147
Buba....
Then what for Pakistan was created?

...if we follow the historical political cycle of pakistan, which occurs in phases of ten years, the following should occur.....

- we are in the civilian 10 year decade....ppp will be in power....it will screw things up, and elections will happen around 3 years time......pml will win.......it will then screw things up, and elections will be held in another 3 years.....

3 years is the life of any civilian political govt. in pakistan.....

- between 6 - 9 years, a coup will occur......this would imply the coas after the next one, i.e. two down the road from kayani....this guy, right now, is a newly minted major general......

- the public will celebrate the coup, and things will improve for the first two to three years.....this guy will say he will leave after three years.....however, a referendum will be held.....after which he will become the president......

- he will split up the ppp and pml and form his own party....after around 3 years, he will lose his popularity.....however, he will go on for another 7-10 years (this is the life of military dictators in pakistan)....

- finally he will be removed, and the same ppp and pml leaders (with some more grey hair will come back in), supported by the same altaph bhai, anp, jui etc......

now what will break this cycle?.....i cannot see anything breaking it......there is no political force on the horizon....the only other factor is the TTP, which will break pakistan.....which will, obviously, shake up everything......

so it is a race between the system surviving for another twenty years, after which new leadership may come up....or the country surviving for another twenty years, after which a new leadership may come up.....

either way, new leadership will come up......though the second way is going to be very violent......

And then he did what no leader in Pakistan has ever done: publically
Ayub Khan also publically announced his resignation on 25 March 1969.

Cheema sahib,

That is true- MAJ (pbuh) had envisaged a non-denominational Pakistan but the situation reversed itself after the Objective Resolution. Now anyone recommending removal of Islam from Constt risks not only being called a murtid but an opponent of Pak Constt as well.

Regards

Re: # 154; majumdar

you are perhaps referring to Bubba's quotation of Mr Ghulam Mustafa Lakho... right?

[[Now, it is the time to amend the Article - 2 of the Constitution of Pakistan in the befitting manner saying that religion shall have nothing to do with business of the State.]]

Isn't that what the founder/father of the nation MAJ (pbuh) stated categorically in his 11/08 speach?

I am prepared to stand corrected on this, of course.

Bubba,

Are you saying that Islam should be expunged from the Pakistani Constt?

Regards

Bubba,

Are you saying that Islam should be expunged from the Pakistani Constt?

Regards

This man has caused most damage to political stability.

Ijaz sahib what did Musharraf say about NS in his final speech, can you please post. Thanks.

arif,
Three factors are to be blamed.
First, The flawed policy of taxing all types of imports which is about 40% (including speed money)on the basic cost and freight cost of materials.
Two, Most instruements etc were made in Sialkot-Gujranwala zone. However due to heavey taxation including GST, most small scale manufacturing plants have closed down and shifted to imports from China. Even if they continue, they are no more competetive with the same items from China.
Thirdly, the ratio of speed money is increasing by the day.

To meet the challenges, th only option is to play around with quality.

Now, the plummeting dollar and high fuel cost adds to the production cost.

Dr.Sahib... Your interesting comment.
Gennerally women are more calculating than men and intelligent in these matters. Generally men are fools in this matter. Women can work outside or be homemaker is great advantage and flexibility they can afford and expect. Most women marry for rational things. Men marry for irrational things like love, failing love, etc. They have tendency just being visual and so they can be excited very easily. Women marry for different reasons than men is my observations. They are like female cats , cautious and calculating. In women thinking appearence and style is not that important . Women always think if this person can help her to bring children up, protect her, incase she dies will take care of children and in evening of life will protct her and comfort her. I have talked to many women who worked under me specially new young married. At that time they are so happy with themselves and are girls.Many times in Marriage markets girls have demand as they are adorable but same person does not get marrieds they begin to look women then only Expak is to save situation as expak is frustrated and bit old and ready to take leftovers, but its mutual. It is quite hard on any body when one enters marriage market as people as market conditions are harsh some times. One always thinks father that their share is undervalued but that is market value. It always was amazement why women marry ugly men. When you talk to them you realiaze how much women think. Women generally have more practical and pragmatic views about marriage and life. Men brain looses fast in company of women and when they smile. Many men poets write love or erotic poetry as that irrational romanticsm really strikes the heart. Most women poets can not write good poetry.
Any way generally over educating women is not good. Now any rational man or woman is not going to water neighbour tree as fruits are not theirs. Same way too much spending money on woman education is like watering other gardens. Women leaves parents for new pastures. Also too much education is problem as earings can not be heavier than than ears. Men get afraid of women who are more educated than men. Most of time all problems in family can be solved as man is more educated and tell wife to shut up as can say you do not understand these things.
So I am little old style in such matters
Good day.
Also Mr. Partha from india writes has some validity.

Dr.Sahib... Your interesting comment.
Gennerally women are more calculating than men and intelligent in these matters. Generally men are fools in this matter. Women can work outside or be homemaker is great advantage and flexibility they can afford and expect. Most women marry for rational things. Men marry for irrational things like love, failing love, etc. They have tendency just being visual and so they can be excited very easily. Women marry for different reasons than men is my observations. They are like female cats , cautious and calculating. In women thinking appearence and style is not that important . Women always think if this person can help her to bring children up, protect her, incase she dies will take care of children and in evening of life will protct her and comfort her. I have talked to many women who worked under me specially new young married. At that time they are so happy with themselves and are girls.Many times in Marriage markets girls have demand as they are adorable but same person does not get marrieds they begin to look women then only Expak is to save situation as expak is frustrated and bit old and ready to take leftovers, but its mutual. It is quite hard on any body when one enters marriage market as people as market conditions are harsh some times. One always thinks father that their share is undervalued but that is market value. It always was amazement why women marry ugly men. When you talk to them you realiaze how much women think. Women generally have more practical and pragmatic views about marriage and life. Men brain looses fast in company of women and when they smile. Many men poets write love or erotic poetry as that irrational romanticsm really strikes the heart. Most women poets can not write good poetry.
Any way generally over educating women is not good. Now any rational man or woman is not going to water neighbour tree as fruits are not theirs. Same way too much spending money on woman education is like watering other gardens. Women leaves parents for new pastures. Also too much education is problem as earings can not be heavier than than ears. Men get afraid of women who are more educated than men. Most of time all problems in family can be solved as man is more educated and tell wife to shut up as can say you do not understand these things.
So I am little old style in such matters
Good day.
Also Mr. Partha from india writes has some validity.

General Pervez Musharraf�s so-called �enlightened moderation� failed to try to erase religious bigotry, extremism and fanaticism even from paper, yes, even from paper, i.e., from the Constitution of Pakistan. In this regard, please remember the words of General Ziaul Haq on the Constitution of Pakistan; when he had said that it is a bit of paper to which he can throw in the dustbin at his Will. Yes, the poison of religious bigotry, extremism and fanaticism is rooted in the Article 2 of the Constitution of Pakistan, wherein it is written that �Islam shall be the State Religion of Pakistan.� The first step was to root out the constitutional roots of such poison by repealing Article 2 and then enacting that Religion shall have nothing to do with the business of State; and that the Parliament shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Be that as it may, now, General Pervez Musharraf has resigned; and the point of concern is that till writing of these lines no political party sitting in the Parliament of Pakistan has deemed it fit and proper to even point out such a poison. So the conduct of the political parties sitting in the parliament is cruel and doubtful. How does the State Religion of Pakistan help to root out such poison? Even no one from Bush Government has publicly pointed out the constitutional roots of such a poison; so the question of rooting it out does not arise at all. Thus Religious Terrorism will continue to live with full force. Now, it is the time to SAY NO TO THE STATE RELIGION OF PAKISTAN. Now, it is the time to amend the Article - 2 of the Constitution of Pakistan in the befitting manner saying that religion shall have nothing to do with business of the State. If the present Parliament of Pakistan, at first, succeeds to purge that poison out of the Constitution; only then, it can be said with sure, that such act would help us to further flush it out of our society. There is no other constitutional, non-violent and peaceful way to deal with such poison.

Posted by Ghulam Mustafa Lakho | August 21, 2008 2:43 PM


http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/musharrafs-resignation. php#comments

Re: # 145;bubba

it was in response to what hamidm sahib wrote over several posts .... and I didn't say I FELT guilty but people try!

[[an "external locus of control" which might need some calibration. don't ask me what this is? i just learnt it myself recently.]]

tell us, do you feel better now that you have localised your "external locus of control"?

Re: # 144 Posted by akcheema on August 24, 2008 5:07:32 pm

akcheema sahib,

[Now I am made to feel guilty for not pushing the issue hard enough at the time!!]

array bhai kiyoun koi bachaey ho? or are you a punjabi? why are you feeling guilty? made to feel guilty!? for what? i am not a shrink, but you may need to get yourself checked out. it seems that you have an "external locus of control" which might need some calibration. don't ask me what this is? i just learnt it myself recently.

Re: # 138; hamidm sahib

I went through the same with several of my cousins etc .... when they were a little younger (uni going age) and even organised a uni admission for two at great expense one in the UK and the other in Australia .... it was all thrown back in my face! apparently getting engaged/married was more important for the girls. Now I am made to feel guilty for not pushing the issue hard enough at the time!!

one can only feel sad .... like you said, its not that easy

pay close attention pakis...things like this are leaked to the media to send pakiland a signal..it's the geeky guy from the verizon commercial saying "can you hear me now"...except that what will follow will be a hellfire instead of a phone call..

U.S. debates going after militants in Pakistan

Frustration with Pakistan's new leadership and belief that extremists are flourishing has reignited a debate on whether the U.S. should act on its own in tribal regions.



August 23, 2008

WASHINGTON — The ongoing disarray among Pakistan's new civilian leadership, including its refusal to accept a U.S. military training mission for the Pakistani army, has led to intense frustration within the Pentagon and reignited a debate over whether the U.S. should act on its own against extremists operating in Pakistan's northwestern tribal regions.

Any Pentagon support for more direct action in Pakistan would be a significant shift for military brass, who for months have resisted a push from other parts of the U.S. government, primarily counter-terrorism officials within the CIA, who have favored large-scale covert operations to go after the Al Qaeda leadership.

The internal debates have taken on new urgency amid U.S. intelligence warnings that Al Qaeda and other militant groups are flourishing in northwestern Pakistan. At the same time, there is a growing belief within the U.S. government that the new leadership in Islamabad has proved to be ineffectual and is preoccupied with internal squabbling in the wake of former President Pervez Musharraf's resignation.

From HT(which means it's as close to BS as can be)...

Musharraf in 'protective custody'

Former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf is under protective custody and will be allowed to move freely only after a new head of the state is elected and the judges he sacked after declaring an emergency in November 2007 are restored, an official said.

"He is under protective custody but is free to meet friends and relatives," said the official, adding this is mainly because of security reasons.

"Once the new president is elected and judges are restored Musharraf will be allowed to leave the country," he said.

According to sources, Musharraf, who resigned on Monday, wanted to visit the US but was stopped by the authorities. "It has been conveyed to him that he will allowed (to travel) after three-four weeks after the election of the president," said the source.

The presidential election, which was scheduled for Sept 17, has been brought forward to Sept 6.

"Some officials are suggesting Saudi Arabia as Musharraf's destination because of security reasons. There are suggestions that he would be sent to the kingdom, where he will stay for at least six months before leaving for any other country," said another official.

The official said that Musharraf would not be allowed to shift into his five-acre farmhouse in Islamabad that is under construction for the last three years. Musharraf had bought the property, valued at $5 million, after he seized power in 1999.

The 11-bedroom house has a fish farm, a tennis court, a swimming pool and other modern facilities for "healthy living," a worker at farm house told IANS.

#120 Posted by zeemax on August 24, 2008 9:44:12 am


BUT I had also advised (free) my wealthy investor friends to switch to Dollars as soon as Ruppee hits 67 (it was 65 then), because after that it will go to 75. As it happened it went to 77. They made a bundle.


Really? How do you make a bundle on this transaction unless you convert the, now higher valued $$, into paki rupees?

Speaking of the paki rupee, hamidm and manto were telling us pakiland was booming because abdul paki had a cell phone..then capt clueless weighed in and made up some numbers about pakiland being the number 2 market for nokia or something..and that, somehow was a sign that there was a telecom revolution in pakiland(with pakiland in the lead)...

From a paki blog..


Easy access to low-cost consumer finance led to a sharp rise in the sale of consumer goods such as cars, motor cycles, cell phones and home appliances. The sale of cell phones, in particular, registered a spectacular rise, with the total number of cell phones in the country soaring from less than 1 million a few years ago to 80 million today.

On the one hand, this rise in the number of cell phones vastly increased communications connectivity in Pakistan, allowing huge numbers of people across the country to talk to each other and conduct business transactions by phone. On the other hand, however, the absence of cell phone manufacturing plants in the country meant that all the phones had to be imported, adding to the country’s import bill and further widening the already growing trade gap.

The Musharraf-Aziz government, for its part, seemed to be oblivious to this negative aspect of the communications revolution, and often cited the huge increase in the number of cell phones as an example of the success of its economic policies.

Moreover, since the ever-increasing revenues earned by the cell phone companies (most of which were foreign-owned) were automatically included in the annual GDP figures (total value of goods and services) compiled by the Federal Bureau of Statistics, it allowed the government to claim that its economic policies had boosted the GDP growth rate to over six per cent – in marked contrast to the average growth rate of below four per cent that had been seen through most of the 1990s under the Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto governments.

What the Musharraf-Aziz government tended to gloss over, however, was that the bulk of the billions of rupees in revenue earned by the foreign-owned cell phone companies were being remitted abroad because the government had imposed no limit on such transfers. If one were to factor these transfers into the GDP equation, the economy’s growth rate, in real terms, would not have been as high as the government portrayed it to be.

Other types of statistical legerdemain were used by the government to support its argument that the country’s per capita income had risen dramatically in recent years, from about $ 450 in 1999 to about $ 1,000 in 2007. In making this case, the government chose to ignore the fact that a falling dollar required that the per capita income figure be proportionately scaled down to give a more realistic picture of the actual figure.

Democracy at work? Admittedly too early to tell given zardari's track record so far. Nevertheless, refreshing to see the leader of a democratic government, however flawed, saying something a deceiptful dictator never did in 7 years as he played both sides of the fence,allowing taliban to flourish and painting this as a "US war" and "not Pakistan's problem".

Zardari calls for ban on Taliban
The Taliban have the upper hand and should be put on the list of banned organisations in Pakistan, said Asif Ali Zardari, PPP Co-Chairman and the leading presidential candidate, in a interview with BBC on Sunday. He says the world and Pakistan are losing the war on terror. “It is an insurgency and an ideological war, he said, adding, “It is our country and we will defend it. The world is losing the war. I think at the moment they (Taliban) definitely have the upper hand.� “The issue, which is not just a bad case scenario as far as Pakistan is concerned or as Afghanistan is concerned but it is going to be spreading further. The whole world is going to be affected by it.�

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/ Politics/25-Aug-2008/Zardari-calls-for-ban-on-Taliban

#117 Posted by zeemax on August 24, 2008 8:08:53 am


This has merely been a passing of the baton from mussharraf to zardari by USA in the relay race of WOT.


So the people who said this was just a new leash on the same old dog were right...

chalo..as a bonus..the departure of musharraf was really hard on certain ex-editors..

Re: # 127

bubba,

... actually this is really sad .... for the last three decades i have been trying to convince my siblings to come over and vote for the republicans, but they have always found one excuse or the other for sticking around in pakiland .... now that they are getting old and have trouble finding their car keys they realize that it was a bad decision for their kids ..... as my sister said,"agar hamey pata hota kay is mulk ka ye haal ho ga to ham brooklyn mein laundrymat khol letay" ...... now they want their kids to get the hell out of there .... unfortunately, it is not that easy

Re: # 136 Posted by rf786 on August 24, 2008 11:50:33 am

rf sahib,

[Any suggestions on what the Pak Govt can do to reduce this 40% cost disadvantage?] My answer is fire 40% of government employees (management types, please)

government employees are the scourge of that wretched society.

Re: # 135

Ijaz Sahib

Any suggestions on what the Pak Govt can do to reduce this 40% cost disadvantage? Thanking you

Arif

rf,
The overheads are so high and the atmosphere very soffocating for those who want to work honestly. Back in 1998, we had shifted our manufacturing from USA to Pakistan, beacuse the family felt, it was time to pay back. Pay we did through massive losses and corruption. Serve, we could not because there is no space for honesty.

Why we shifted to China. Simply because the cost was about 40% of what it is in Pakistan, besides no taxes. Pakistan is the only country in the world that heavily taxes import of water treatment equipment. World over it is tax free commodity.

The journey was not by choice but under duress.

Masadi,
I could not agree more. Musharraf mentioned NS for this very reason in his speech. I have a feeling that the game began very long ago through a slanderous campaign to malign BB for Zardari's doings.

Re: # 130

Ijaz Gul Sahib

{Its just three months that I shifted the manufacturing from Gujranwala to China.}

What was the journey like? I know quite a few business groups from Karachi who have made the decision to call quits and moved their business to China or Dubai. What will make u guys come back?

Contrary to what Ahmad sahib is saying, there were no grassroots or better organization by the PPP that allowed them victory. It was political deal making with the military/US, manipulation and rigging and the establishment butchering of BB that drove Zardari to power. And like I had said getting rid of Musharraf was a smokescreen to not restore the judges. What Zardari is doing right now proves what I have been saying all along. Musharraf was "sacrificed" by the establishment US to get NS to back off, let us see where this leads to...

Bubba,
You have a very valid point about defang.

Zeemax,
My views have been consistent and can be verified from my essays, interacts, ilogs and UP. In my essay on the army, which came under flak from HP and some called me an apologist, I laid out the conclusions. It was not my job to tell you what to do as a Pakistani. Now read that essay once again and it will make sense. In the meanwhile,let me enjoy my ganderis before they become cost prohibitive.

Hamid,
Sad to know about your Rs.$ Parity. It happened to me too.
I exchanged a few thousand dollars and put them in Bank, but the Rs lost its value. My company won a tender that I cannot execute because the Rs has plummetted and the facilitation fees tripelled. So its better, I loose 2% earnest money. Its just three months that I shifted the manufacturing from Gujranwala to China. Thanx God I made one right decision.

We are into the most interesting times.

Re: # 128

bubba Jee

There is nothing wrong in being a Punjabi, problem arises when people like NS exploit their numbers by blackmailing and coercing others. GONGLU (NS) refused to play politics of mutual respect and was intent upon revenge, now that they have achieved their narrow objective they have nothing to offer. Give some time to the people of Pakistan, they will jettison this bag of trash back to where it came from.

Re: # 123 Posted by rf786 on August 24, 2008 10:24:24 am

rf sahib,

[Pakistan Khappay ya naa khappay.] for me, pakistan khappay, provided punjabiat totally defanged.

Re: # 122 Posted by hamidm2 on August 24, 2008 10:18:32 am

hamid mian,

[.. soon i will have a houseful of nieces and nephews ..]

so your tribe is coming? wow, we will have more voters for the republicans.

#124 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Sir, Tusi sau chittar wi maro tey hazir. But you never said what should a Pakistani do?

hamidm (#65),

I am not sure if I agree. Iraqi liberation has been extremely painful so far and there is little reason to think that sustainable improvement will come about in the foreseeable future. The execution of the war was just as competent as the justification leading up to the war. Do you really think this will bring about democracy in the Arab land? Yes, a few Arab leaders have abandoned nuclear plans … but how long can this situation be sustained? Things in Iraq have measurably deteriorated … but without much likelihood of improvement. Is this model of democracy supposed to be inspiring for the unwashed masses??

On the other hand, if Iraq invasion is justifiable, then so is the invasion of Pakistan and Iran. So while I disagree with you, I do think your reasoning is consistent.

tahmed, on the other hand, has switched positions more frequently than Bernanke on the economy. Sahib recently admitted that the US invaded the wrong country … while insisting that he still supports his article in favor of the war. Go figure!!

+++

tahmed, there is a fundamental flaw in your comparison of Iraq with Japan and Germany.

In the case of Japan and Germany, there was clear aggression against the world by these two nations. There was consensus in the world about who needs to be punished, and why. Furthermore, very importantly, Japan and Germany were entities with well-defined boundaries. On the other hand aggression by Iraq/Saddam does not come close to what Japan and Germany were up to during WWII. Furthermore, militant Islam is not a single country that may be easily invaded and defeated. It has a diffused existence in pockets here and there spreading from Turkey to Philippines and then some.

Let us know when you finally figure out … if US invaded the right country or the wrong country. You can always flip a coin .,. you know …

Zeemax,
when I kept reminding you all never paid any attention.
Hun 100 rupay kilo ganderi choopo!

Re: # 118

bamidm2

I am afraid your decent banker gave you very poor advise, many bankers that I know of had advised the opposite.

Pakistan needs stability desperately, assuming this government finds some legs then funds will flow back. I have said this b4 on this forum, Pakistan still has friends but their patience is waning and these friends can make a BIG difference provided there interest and principle is protected.

I agree with Zee, short term can bring a lot of uncertainty but I disagree on the long term. The Leader of Punjab (NS) has played a very dangerous game and is pushing the country to the brink of asking the ultimate question, Pakistan Khappay ya naa khappay.

Re: # 121

zeemax,

..... to give you an idea of how bad things are, people who have scoffed and rejected the idea of leaving the country for thirty years are now regretting their decision and encouraging their children to leave ...... soon i will have a houseful of nieces and nephews ......

#119 Posted by tahmed32,

Yes tahmed, I know your position. But as you know, I have my position. That the Pakistani Taliban (the original ones) are neither blowing up schools nor want to carve out a piece of pakistan. It's been 5 years. Many new elements have joined under the same banner. Much more complicated than before.

Anyway, I'm a dejected person today. I see more mayhem in the short term (in the long run will be OK) and there'll be plenty of unnecessary bloodletting. Totally avoidable.

#118 Posted by hamidm2,

Actally your banker gave you good advice. I had been advising the same, BUT I had also advised (free) my wealthy investor friends to switch to Dollars as soon as Ruppee hits 67 (it was 65 then), because after that it will go to 75. As it happened it went to 77. They made a bundle.

So you should have consulted me.

zeemax #117 one of musharraf's most damaging things to Pakistan has been his strategy of fomenting anti-US feelings in Pakistan by implying that the US was wrong in trying to prevent future 9/11s by going after the perpetrators. he then used these anti-US feelings to turn around and paint himself as the "indispensable ally" of the US, given this anti-US feeling.

I know you dont see things this way - and that is because you for some reason continue to assume that these are "fellow muslims", even as these "fellow muslims" burn down girls schools and seek to carve out a piece of Pakistan for themselves. One day perhaps you will understand they are no different than Zardari in exploiting people's emotions towards Islam for personal gain. And one day perhaps, the truly dirty game Musharraf played as per the para. above will become clear to people in Pakistan.

Re: # 102

zeemax,

... it is a sad story ..... you see i trusted my banker, a paki who is a family friend and basically a decent chap ...... he advised me to convert my fe-25 account into the rupee because the rupee was giving a ten plus percent interest while the dollar was paying 1-2 % ...... for many years the rupee held steady between 60 and 62 and like many pathetic pakis who just can't help acting like pakis, i too began to to believe that this godforsaken country had a future .......... i should have known better and i blame the british for abandoning us ......

.... but i have learned my lesson and converted my inheritance to the all mighty dollar at 75 ..... i see the rupee at 200 in six months ........ ganderis went up to sixty rupees a kilo .... hun choopo !

#111 Posted by tahmed32,

Ashamed to admit this tahmed, but I was wrong since Feb 18.

This has merely been a passing of the baton from mussharraf to zardari by USA in the relay race of WOT.

The consequences are very costly in the short term.

#115 Posted by hamidm2,

What do you have anything to do with the Pakistani Rupee anyway. How did you have faith in it?

Re: # 103

zeemax,

.... "You're an Australian, a murtid, and a white man - even more so than hamidm." .....

.... how can you say that after i lost more than 25% of my assests because of my faith in the paki rupee which, like the koran, is turning out to be worth less than the paper it is printed out ....... i am deeply offended

aik sawal our hey , Kiya aik aisay saddar-e-pakistan ka duniya meen aitebar hoo ga , jo apnay hi kiyee huway tehriri mohidoon say aik huftay baad hi mukar jaata hoo...??


sadder-e-pakistan , agar Zardari bun janta hey too.


Angeraizi meen likhney ki koshish kertey heen.


..the question arises, should the world then trust the President of Pakistan , who is known to back track on his OWN written agreements....??


President of Pakistan if Zardari becomes One.

aik sawal our hey , Kiya aik aisay saddar-e-pakistan ka duniya meen aitebar hoo ga , jo apnay hi kiyee huway tehriri mohidoon say aik huftay baad hi mukar jaata hoo...??


sadder-e-pakistan , agar Zardari bun janta hey too.


Angeraizi meen likhney ki koshish kertey heen.


..the question arises, should the world then trust the President of Pakistan , who is known to back track on his OWN written agreements....??


President of Pakistan if Zardari becomes One.

Re: # 110

zeemax,

"What has happened is unbelievable. Written agreements broken three times, the last one sworn over a Qura'an. "

.... why is that so unbelievable? .... i have been telling you for a long time that the book is not worth the paper it is written on

zeemax: you would know better, but it seems to me that PPP won because they had a much better grass-roots nation-wide organization than PMLN. That is why they won.

And the electorate voted for the party, not for zardari (whom they were prepared to give a second chance, given his positive words after benazirs death). so the electorate in fact made a reasonable choice.

and given that return to civilian rule, zardari does not have the capacity to do the kind of damage mush did and would have continued to do. so Pakistan Electorate Zindabad!! :-)

#108 Posted by tahmed32,

tahmed, what zardari said was unforgivable. He was talking about agreements that those are not Ayats or Hadees which can't be changed. That reference was totally irrelevant.

Any agreement can be changed, BUT only with the consent of all the signatories to it. No single signatory can change it on his own. These are simple principles of any business contract - let alone the destiny of nations.

This dragging in of Qura'an and Hadees to justify lies will drag this person to the most dreadful fate. I have no doubt about that. It is etched in people's mind as nothing else is.

My only concern is that, after all, PPP is elected by a majority, as are its cohorts in their respective constituencies. That reflects very badly on their electorate. Is that what their voters want?

That is my question. What do you think?

Re: # 103

I am far more a Pakistani than you'll ever be!! exactly how long have you been having these fruitful discussions here? and exactly what have you achieved? apart from threatening people with bombs if "your lot" didn't get their way!

zeemax: you will notice btw how zardari dragged in Islam yesterday (claiming, incorrectly, that a man's word is not considered as sacred as the Quran). This is an example of what i talk about when i say rogues exploit people's emotions on religion for personal gain, and we should keep religion out of politics.

zeemax #104 no doubt the nation is paying a heavy cost for the fact that while one shoe (dictatorship) fell (thanks to PMLN and general public pressure), the other shoe (restoration of the judiciary, accountability of musharraf and other lawbreakers) has been prevented from falling by zardari.

let us just hope that the other shoe falls sooner than later - without the rule of law, there can be no economic progress. investors dont come, income generating international events dont take place.

What has happened is unbelievable. Written agreements broken three times, the last one sworn over a Qura'an.

Anyone of any principles at all would have believed each and every single one, and the last even a thief. No wonder a seasoned politician like Nawaz Sharif was checkmated with lies. Who could have thought those were all lies?

But that's not where the problem is i.e. with Zardari alone. It is also with Asfandyar Wali who had said in Karachi "Ham kabhi beyghairati nahi karein gey". What to speak of Fazlur-Rehman and MQM. These are all elected people.

If they betrayed the trust of their voters, it's a different matter. People will see to that. However if they didn't, and that's what their electorate really wanted, then there's big trouble ahead between Punjab and the rest.

#99 ayub may have gotten his face on the back of a rickshaw - but that rickshaw was headed to the garbage dump, not to the president's house.

what continues to escape your attention is the fact that mush was history the day he was separated from his uniform. that day, power shifted, quietly and without fanfare, from the one man to the voters of Pakistan. the die was cast that day for mush to to go from weakness to weakness, with a picture on the back of a rickshaw being the best he can hope for today.

#90 Posted by tahmed32,

All of what you say is correct. In fact, I'll give the new set up six months - no more. But in the meantime there'll be hell to pay.

And who will bear the cost? The Pakistani people. Runaway inflation, economic ruin, and bombs - a lot of them.

akcheema,

Do me a favour. Please stay out of Pakistan Politics discussions amongst Pakistanis. You're an Australian, a murtid, and a white man - even more so than hamidm.

Please comment on Canberra politics to Australians, and not to Pakistanis who have an emotional attachment with the Pakistan current affairs.

Thanks.

hamidm mian #: "bulleya,

.... you are a genius !"

...as i have always told you.....don't hate me because i am beautiful....

Re: # 100

bulleya,

.... you are a genius !

hamidm mian #: "..... the question is whether the unwwashed masses are better off than before ? ......"

...the answer is simple......they aren't better off than before....

i cannot recall a situation in pakistan, where anyone was better off than before....perhaps the first three years of musharraf rule, when certain things were corrected and the 9/11 cash had started flowing in....other than that, at least in my lifetime, things have always been worse off than before....

one need not be a genius to realize this......

....what needs to be looked at is whether anything is changing, which at some stage, may allow things to turn around......

since i have been in pakistan and not in michigan, i can tell you the following:......

there is, definitely, a change....the pre-requisites of democracy and a civil society are starting to take root (faster than a cynic like me could have predicted)......i cannot recall discussing the constitution with any taxi driver, in any country, other than in pakistan.....

nawaz is getting very popular, and ppp is losing it.....(once again taxi driver info).....

.....in the last election, so many big-wigs were kicked out (including a chaudhry, a leghari and a general) that one has to say that candidates are now scared of the voters....the voters couldn't have voted in any more sane manner.....

....there is an inkling of civil society - limited to lawyers at the moment......and the judiciary is rising.......

the media is better than what i have seen anywhere else.....

so if pakistan can get through another 20 years and four elections, things will definitely improve......however, this is a big if and is getting bigger.....the economy is on the verge of crisis.....the same jokers are going to be running the country for the next five years....and most of all, due to the shenanigans of your good friend bush, pakistan is, now, becoming a center of suicide bombings......and a center of taliban - a force which even the soviets and americans could not defeat......

so if pakistan survives for the next ten to twenty years, the seedlings are there for it to turn around......the question is whether it will survive or not.....

Re: # 98

tahmed,

..... in a couple of months, with your help, i will change my movement's name to 'musharraf ko bahal karo!' ..... people tell me that his potraits are already starting to appear at the pan shops ......... as soon as his face appears on the backs of busses and rickshaws i will launch the second phase of my 24th movement ..... now, there are no gurantees that he will make a comeback - ayub khan's face still beams down on customers at fruit shops and tandoors run by afghan mohajirs (not to be confused with those who remain refugees after sixty years) - but you never know .........

..... i use my sister - the one with the degree in home economics - as a barometer of the paki public .... after all she has voted for them all - ppp, pml-n, pml-q, imran khan - and unlike romair, who inspite of his personal relationshiop with khwaja rafiq and imran khan knows diddly, this woman knows her politics ...... it has only been a week, but according to her all these politicians are 'uloo kay pathay' compared to musharraf who was a mere 'khabbes ka bacha' ..... to be honest, i don't know who is worse - ulloo or khabees - but time will tell ......... for now, the uloos seem to be engaged in a game of chicken with each other, while musharraf is playing a lot of tennis and working on his bridge ... he was even spotted on the pindi golf course early yesterday morning and people are beginning to compare sehba to eva ..... but being a realist, i am backing general kiyani ........

general kiyani zindabad !

hamidm: i thought you were the clued in man when you were confidently predicting month after month that the "hosni mubarak" musharraf was going to "overclever" his way into staying in power.

seems to me you are looking at the mirror when you keep parrotting "clueless" and "sheikh chili"...

Re: # 96

thanks ... now it all makes perfect sense!!

Re: # 95

cheema sahib,

because i am superstitious ......... in superbowl XXIV the 49ers beat the denver broncos by the the biggest margin in super bowl history - 45 points .......... with players like sheikh tahmed chilli and captain clueless, this movement needs all the help it can get

Re: # 94; hamidm sahib

why 24 sir?

bhaiyo! i am announcing the launch of the 'moverment for the restoration of democracy- XXIV' .......... please join me in the struggle for the restoration of democray and the rule of law in pakistan .... reagardless of their state of personal hygiene, all pakis are invited to join ...

Re: # 87

romair mian,

..... you are stating the obvious, so you don't get any points for being a genius and regardless of you experience as a military commander, international businessman and political analyst, you remain as clueless as ever .....

..... the question is whether the unwwashed masses are better off than before ? ...... if the anwswer is yes, then regardless of which sindhi kleptomaniac or gowalmandi catamite comes to power, all this hooplah was a good thing ......... but if the answer is no than, i am afraid it was as futile an effort as masadi trying to have sex with the lamp post ........ from what i hear on the street, abdul is going to get buggered once again by the very same people who have been doing it to him before, after and in between his rape at the hands of the goons in khaki ....... i know abdul deserves it, but i can't help feeling sorry for the poor fool ...... according to my sister - who, unlike you, has a degree in home economics and runs a household of five adults, two dogs, a duck and a parrot, in less than sixty thousand a month - all these politicians are 'kuttay kay puttar' ...... she even called my man, sheik rashid, a 'harami' ......... i told her to stop watching television ....... she responded by calling hamid mir and kamran khan 'haramzaday' ..... she used to call musharraf a 'khabees ka bacha' but now it seems now everyone is a 'uloo a patha' or ' kuttay ka puttar' as far as she is concerned ........ i wonder what is bothering her ........

zeemax #: ....neither the ppp, nor any of the pml's, nor the army or maulvis can do much for pakistan....had they been able to do so, pakistan wouldn't be in the condition it is in today....

....this was the whole point of my post...i.e. things are 100% back to where they were prior to the musharraf coup.....

....pakistani politics needs to evolve beyond the current leaderships.....or the current leaderships themselves have to evolve (which i don't see happening)......

....however, nothing new has come up....at least in term of political leadership......hence as per hamidm mian, we are stuck with the same jokers.....literally the exact same ones.....

even if we assume these guys are dedicated, running a country is way beyond them....they can barely run a district....and i say this as someone who has had some discussions with some of these guys on these issues......

.....they are only better than the army and maulvis, in the sense, that the later two groups can barely run a unit or a mosque, but are 500% sure they can run a continent; much less a country......the politicians, at least, do realize their own limitations......

......so pakistan's solution is not in the hands of these jokers - pml, ppp, army, maulvis......even ayaz amir calls them jokers......

pakistan solution lies in the hands of civil society - media, lawyers, any other pressure group - which can put enough pressure on these jokers, to keep them in line, with the hope that during the next few elections, some new political force can emerge, which can replace all these guys......(though i cannot see any on the horizon......however, the result of the last elections did show that the process has reached a stage, where the public can vote out jokers).......

a military dictator, who had shamelessly hung on to power for 9 years, was forced out by a party whose leader is mr. 10%, and who came into power only because his wife left his name in her will.....the leader of this party is a 19 year old kid.......the leader of the women's wing of this party is his 16 year old sister, and the leader of the youth wing is their younger sister......there power is being contested by a 25 year old cousin.....

....this party is in alliance with another party which is named after its leader (n).....a rather unique distinction.....this leader physically stormed the supreme court of the country (the procession was led by khwaja saad, who described it to me personally)....and is now the biggest defender of the judiciary.....his brother is the no. 2 in the party, with a nephew well on his way to being no. 3.....and a son-in-law, who retired as a captain and is now a possible no. 4.......

another party in alliance is led by a guy who has not been to pakistan for 14 years, is a british national, and yet controls his party through long-distance telephone calls....

i hope you get the idea......

however, amongst this pack of jokers - the only choice available to pakistan - i would chose nawaz sharif.....unlike the other jokers, at least he has his roots strictly in pakistan......and is making the right noises, nowdays.....

Re: # 89; tahmed
[[So - while I dont think you will understand this, my "sheikh chili" dreams (as you put it), are already a reality.]]

LOL!!.....I suppose it depends on what the "dream" was about tahmed sahib ..... btw, every time you guys argue over "cj", I am thinking of the cj from Baywatch for some reason!

zeemax #88 by focussing on court politics, rather than on national politics, zardari is digging himself into the same hole that musharraf had dug himself into. and while musharraf had zardari to help him get out of the hole, zardari may find (a few months, a few years) from now that there is no one around to dig him out of the hole.

by sticking to principle rather than short-sighted expediencies of court politics, nawaz sharif is not just doing the nation a service - he is also establishing himself as the kind of national leader pakistan badly needs.

hamidm #86 On your question about the CJ, chances are 50-50 that he will ever be restored, for reasons Zardari and co know best.

But the CJ has already played his role in history - shown Pakistanis that despite the "glass is half empty" cynics like yourself, one man can make a difference. Put an end to Musharraf's dreams of becoming a lifelong, absolute, wardi-wearing President.

So - while I dont think you will understand this, my "sheikh chili" dreams (as you put it), are already a reality. It is your "sheikh chili" khiyalaat of "hosni mubarak" being able to trick his way into staying in illegitimate power, your contempt for those not fortunate as you in having a shower at home, that you should worry about.

#87 Posted by bulleya,

You're right in your analysis. Though there's a wild card - the media - which is totally anti-PPP now, just as it had been anti-musharraf, and pro-PML (N) earlier.

What impact do you think it may have?

Given of-course that the coalition is finished, and even Punjab Government is likely to be replaced with a Governor Rule after the Presidential elections. Then there's also the Lawyers' agitation (dharnas announced by Aitezaz) commencing again on 28 August.

...things seem to be settling down, almost 100% identically, to where they were before musharraf took over 9 years ago.....

...the political leadership is identical.....there doesn't seem to be a single new face or party......the alliances are a bit different.....however, if one goes by history, they should settle down also, to what they were....

....by the time, musharraf took over, ppp was a totally defeated party, reduced to rural sind.....while pml had a very heavy mandate and a 2/3rd majority (something unheard of in pakistan politics)......

so the rise and fall of musharraf has helped ppp.....it is now the largest political party.......and it has harmed pml, as it is broken into many factions......

there is only one new political element that has come into existence, since musharraf's coup.....the pml-q.....wherever pml-q decides to disintegrate into, is the party which will dominate pakistani politics......

pml-q will disintegrate....but will its members join ppp or will they join pml-n.......

....in the end, it is nearly impossible for any party from a small province to dominate a party, which controls punjab....hence pml-n is, eventually, going to be the most powerful party in pakistan.......

unless, of course, ppp can totally integrate pml-q and develop a strong base in punjab......

if elections were held today, nawaz sweeps....but they are not being held today.......the best strategy for nawaz is to get the required no. of pml-q supporters with him to keep his govt. in punjab and then dump the ppp in the center.....

.....ppp's alliances with mqm (and any alliance with pml-q) will not last.....these groups are, normally totally against each other......

to get an undersanding of how strange pakistani politics can be, one need, only, to look at abida hussain.....she has switched more parties than most people switch underwear.....

she was in ppp, then pml and what not.....at the time of musharraf's coup, she was a stalwart pml person.....then she split and became a founding father (mother) of pml-q....she participated in the elections, but lost to her nephew faisal saleh (who at that time was in ppp, as one of its most senior members).....musharraf then broke away faisal from ppp and had him join pml-q.....this left abida hussain in the boondocks as her opponent was, now, in the same party.......so she split again......this time leaving pml-q.......

the only option left was to join ppp again......the same party she had left earlier to join pml (-n, before leaving that to join pml-q)....

however, there were a few problems.....she used to be the attack dog of pml against benazir......she gave ppp the name - permanently pregnant prime minister (in relation to benazir).......she was also the one who filed the fake cases against gilani, due to which he was sent to jail for five years by musharraf......

anyways, she, along with her husband, is back in ppp.....faisel saleh, who was in ppp, is now in pml-q (alliance).....and may, at some point join pml-n........

interestingly, both faisal and abida are fighting for the betterment of the poor people in pakistan, apparently....both are big time pirs.......

tahmed,

..... i was having one of sheikh tahmed chili moments when i dreamed of an american viceroy in islamabad - that is not going to happen because the unwashed masses, unlike the japaneses and the germans or even the iraqis, are not worth saving ........ and if the civilized world was not threatened by people who love death more than life, america wouldn't bother with fata either ..... actually, i think that america is overestimating the ability of cave dwellers to do any significant damage, but it is better to be safe than sorry ......... personally i think it would be better to give the people of fata twenty four hours to evacuate and then nuke the place ....... this way we can create a radioactive buffer between afgahanistan and pakistan inhabited only by tall arabs and uzbeks who glow in the dark ........

..... but forget about b-52's ..... how do you feel about the kleptomaniac president armed with 58-2B? ...... when do you think that narcoleptic pco-1 chief justice is going to be restored? .... what do you think of the fat catamites of gowalmandi who will soon be discarded by their boyfriend zardari as he jumps into bed with altaph bai ? ..... things are not turning out as you had thought... eh,mian sheikh chili ? ...... i will not say, 'i told you so', because i didn't .... like the rest of the pathetic pakis i thought it might be different this time ............ hun choopo ! ..... unfortuntely even ganderis are selling for fifty rupees a kilo .......

You all have a nice day

Hamid writes "... actually i am betting that america will (and should) have boots on the ground in the the koran belt of fata and nwfp by the end of the year ..."

You mean you would much prefer the fata-ites to find safe havens in Islamabad as their buddies did in Fata when the US put boots on the ground in Afghanistan? Reminds me of the Tom and Jerry show, the only difference is Jerry seldom gets the cheese...

tahmed writes "Mr. Masadi: I see from the number of posts to or about me that your obsession with trying to berate me keeps you very busy. While greatly flattered by this, I hope you find time to wash your face sometimes."

Tahmed sahib, thank you for your kind observation. As usual it is off in its conclusion. It is not about you but the ideas you are pushing, straight out of Fox News talking points, regarding the white man and his war driven "democracy". I am quite sure the people here understand you for what you are, there is nothing I can do to berate traits (in you unfortunately) they recognize already as being of a sell out, backstabbing hypocrite..

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

hamidm: actually you were talking about an american viceroy in islamabad. that is why i suggested visiting your good neighbor shankar.

but if all you are saying is predicting "boots on the ground" rather than "wings in the air" as is the case now, then that is merely stating the obvious - i.e. with musharraf gone, the democratic government (even one headed by 10%) has to be responsive to the people of pakistan. and a government responsive to the people of pakistan isnt going to paint this as "america's war" (as musharraf did as part of his strategy of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds) - it is going to say this is "our war". and that is what the PM has started saying already!

So - if it is "our war", then US and NATO are allies in this war, not enemies as musharraf implied as part of his startegy. and mullah dow piazas of fata are the enemy, not "pious muslims". and so if US and NATO are helping as allies to clean up the crooks whom your general "hosni musharraf" gave refuge in fata, then that is exactly the kind of military assistance pakistan needs.

The only concern of course is that US and NATO then dont challenge pakistan's sovereignty over fata, after fata is made secure for ordinary citizens. I dont see that happening if Pakistan extends its writ to fata (as the PM says will be done), rather than creating a power vacuum (as happened in afghanistan) where all kinds of bandits from the middle east and central asia converge to plan future 9/11s.

Re: # 67

bubba mian,

.... actually i am betting that america will (and should) have boots on the ground in the the koran belt of fata and nwfp by the end of the year ...

Mr. Masadi: I see from the number of posts to or about me that your obsession with trying to berate me keeps you very busy. While greatly flattered by this, I hope you find time to wash your face sometimes.

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Tahir writes "Six articles on the front page about a very sick man is a sickening trend..."

There are many sickening trends on chowk and then there is the sickening trend of some among the Middle Classes in Pakistan who have come to love their enslavement and every dictator that brings America's dirty money and McDonalds to enhance their wannabe lifestyle for a few years, you will see them shed these tears from their class specific vantage points having not a concern in the world about the very vast majority of their country going to the dogs because of the Pakistan Army...

Tahir sahib,

Haven't seen you around here for a while. How are you doing and how are you dealing with Chowk censorship?

TNI Masadi

Tahmed writes "hamidm: democracy requires a large middle class, and it requires the rule of law. iraq had a large middle class, and if the Bush administration was not so totally incompetent there was a good chance the US occupation of Iraq would have had the same positive outcomes as the US occupation of Japan and Germany after World War II."

This is the sickness that I was talking about. In Tahmed sahib's "white man worship" logic, even though a middle class is the necessary cause for the emergence of democracy it is not a sufficient cause and needs active intervention (based on war) and physical occupation by the white man for democracy to fluorish. For that purpose the dishonest example of Japan is cited (forgetting the context of the occupation that was barbarism par excellence, the fact that the King was retained and then as in a prison, the Japanese were deculturized, dehumanized and demilitarized using an epistemology that considered them inferior and less than human) and the countless examples of disastrous US military adventures in Latin America, South Asia etc are ignored. Such is the extent of the sickness of white man worship. Such sickness is contagious and should be kept out of Pakistan. By the way Pakistan does not have a "large" Middle Class and the Middle Class is a buffer class between the elite and the oppressed masses and does more to maintain the system of oppression than to cause change...

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Re: # 74 Max

Tasveer banata huN
Tasveer nahiN banti (tasveer nahiN banti)
Ik khwoab sa dekha hay
Ta'beer nahiN banti (tasveer nahiN banti)

This Talat Mahmood classic from film Baradari is based on Raag PahaRi.

And can't we all hear Raag PahaRi being sung all across Swat, Wana, Waziristan, and now Taxila?

#73 Posted by tahir,

Why don't you post one giving the real picture?

Six articles on the front page about a very sick man is a sickening trend.

#71 Posted by bubba,

PML-Q is conspiring with Punjab Governor Salman Taseer.

Who else but their woman wing leader Sumaira Malik (remember the famous photo of Ch. Shujaat with his Women's wing) staying at Punjab Governor house? Her grandfather occupied that during One Unit - Nawab Amir Muhammad khan.

Playing both cards at the same time. Woman card for the playboy Governor, and the illustrious family history to lay a claim.

Re: # 70 Posted by zeemax on August 23, 2008 8:57:55 am

Zee,

[JUI/ANP/MQM are complicit with PPP. Judges will not be restored.]

And where are those from PML-Q?

#64 Posted by captainjohann,

This has happened. The PML-N deadline is changed to tonight from Wednesday. Zardari's game is out in the open. It was all delaying tactics about filing of Presidential nomination papers till 28 Aug and push PML-N out. JUI/ANP/MQM are complicit with PPP. Judges will not be restored.

Let's see what happens next.

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bubba: this is hamidm's favorite literature. at least Tracinski can claim to be a dumb pole who never had a chance to know what he is harping about anyway. Hamidm has a different problem, lack of knowledge not being one of those.

Hamid mian,

Have you read this article?

What to Do About Pakistan
By Robert Tracinski

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/what_to_do_about_ pakistan.html

So we can send a not-so-subtle message to the government of Pakistan: cooperate with us in suppressing the Taliban, rooting out al-Qaeda, and supporting the government of Afghanistan--or wake up in a year or two and find yourself encircled by an Indian-Afghan alliance backed by the United States.

The radical Islamists do not make rational calculations about their interests, because their interests are inherently irrational: as they like to remind us, they love death. But there are enough people in positions of authority in Pakistan--in the military and in parliament--who do make rational calculations, and they will quickly add up the numbers and grasp the situation that we have the power to impose on them.

If they see that the Taliban is a losing cause in Afghanistan, and that the punishment for backing the wrong horse will be the projection of a US-Afghan insurgency into Pakistan, combined with the threat of encirclement by India--then we have every reason to believe that they will suddenly grasp that their interests lie in being good allies to the United States.

Robert Tracinski writes daily commentary at TIADaily.com. He is the editor of The Intellectual Activist and TIADaily.com.

hamidm: democracy requires a large middle class, and it requires the rule of law. iraq had a large middle class, and if the Bush administration was not so totally incompetent there was a good chance the US occupation of Iraq would have had the same positive outcomes as the US occupation of Japan and Germany after World War II.

Instead, the Bush government failed to provide the necessary troops to prevent law and order from breaking down. The iraqi middle class left in droves.

So, there is at best a 50-50 chance of democracy emerging in Iraq.

Pakistan, on the other hand, has not only a large middle class, but also a dynamic one which has successfully booted out a dictator. So your calls for US invading Pakistan are merely one more reason why I think you need to see Dr. Shankar, Shrink Specialists.

All these are things you are not wired to understand obviously. But just thought I would get this off my chest.

sattar mian,

..... i hate to point this out - even though i usually agree with you - i too supported the invasion of iraq and continue to do so now ....... iraq has been liberated and the seed of democracy has been planted ...... in a couple of years it might be the first democracy in arab lands since mo of mecca overthrew the last elected government in mecca ....... it is now time to turn our attention to iran and pakistan ..... i would welcome an americn veceroy in islamabad as long as it is not hillary clinton ...... the unwashed and clueless masses of pakistan deserve better than zardari and nawaz sharif ......

I only hope Nawaz sees the light cut his losses and run and LEAD an opposition for the sake of democracy in Pakistan.Judges will never be reinstated as the Pakistani steel privitisation issue is not going to go away.
Greatness lies NOT in never falling but in rising every time we fall.

Tahmed sahib, humanistic concerns and not anything personal regarding you prompts my response to your methodology of "hiding every crime of the white man" and glorifying him day and evening, whenever you get the chance. Please understand this and don't confuse this with personal hatred or insults.

Have a nice day and take hamid sahib out for lunch someday to discuss these important issues,

TNI Masadi

In #61, Sattar writes about tahmed sahib, "Your lack of forthrightness gives credence to masadi’s claims about you being a spineless something without moral fiber"

Sattar writes "our lack of forthrightness gives credence to masadi’s claims ..."

Sattar sahib, truth has an intrinsic quality of becoming apparent sooner or later.

Thank you for your astute observation,
Have a good day,

The unalienated TNI Masadi

tahmed,

You are missing the point. Go back and review your posts where you cheered Iraq invasion. What did you learn, if anything? This is a rhetorical, but serious question.

But it gets funnier. If I recall correctly, you recently acknowledged that … from the American viewpoint, USA invaded the wrong country. Then you quickly added that … but from the Iraqi viewpoint, USA invaded the right country since it eliminated Saddam.

Of course, every invasion is right from someone’s viewpoint. What’s next, Mr. Genius? Should we now invade Nigeria? The sheer idiocy of your comment was shocking. Oops, we invaded the wrong country. Sorry, I guess …

I’ll remind you once again - there’s no need to discuss anything. Your lack of forthrightness gives credence to masadi’s claims about you being a spineless something without moral fiber. And while we are on the subject, here’s another title for your article: “Iraq war: How I got conned!� …

You all have a nice day, I have to prepare a report on Alienation, so I must get going...

Ajeya writes "31 masadi

I reserve the right to be uncivil to members of a ghoulish cult that threw the first stone and has never stopped since or even apologized."

Ajeya sahib, greetings of peace and harmony to you. How are you doing today? Whereas I do not want to interfere with your "reserved rights", let me apologize to you on behalf of the ghouls and goblins, you should certainly not let them determine your character, which at the present is quite ugly and full of hate. Let me apologize on their behalf, even though I am innocent of doing what they do, so that you can move on with your life on Chowk....

Thank you for your kind consideration and enjoy some beverage of choice as you think about these important issues in peace and tranquility...

TNI Masadi

tahmed writes "Mr Masadi: so you wish to "dewardify" the rest of the military along with musharraf. Be my guest. Hope I am not coming in your way."

Yes sir, I wish to do that, including those dead generals who need to be de-graved and then de-wardified. Criminal institutions that have fed on the blood of the nation need to be removed in total like a cancerous tumor. You wouldn't leave any part of a cancerous growth inside a body, if you wanted the body to live, now would you?

Have a nice day, for the judgment is nigh.

TNI Masadi

Sattar sahib, that article you refer to regarding the Iraq war was the product of a demented criminal mind, one that would overloook the killing of millions just so that he could partake in "white man worship". To date I have yet to see someone as demented as the author of that article, Leadenwinter is a very close second....

Re: # 25

....and you point is? man you are going to die of hate.

It does not make sense to say war and talk about injustice in the same sentence.

#54 i am prepared to discuss that article, or anything else i have written, with any individual on chowk who is not one of those i refuse to waste time with discussing anything. as explained in #52 below.

have a nice day.

tahmed,

You are unnecessarily distorting the issue. Your writings are more meaningful than your bag of sorry excuses. There is no need for discussions against your wishes … so give it a rest!

Good intentions of fools cause many a havoc. You should consider writing another Chowk article. “The Iraq War: What I have learnt�. Try to identify flaws in your thinking and your abuse of self-righteous rhetoric of democracy …

[You may then go back to enjoying worrying about the future of mankind.]

… or perhaps you’d rather visit your dentist … I am not sure …

Mr Masadi: so you wish to "dewardify" the rest of the military along with musharraf. Be my guest. Hope I am not coming in your way.

Sattar: i understand where all this smoldering comes from - my refusal, despite your perdiodic efforts over the past couple of years (!!), to re-engage in "discussions" with you. If it is any consolation, you are not the only individual who I dont wish to engage in discussion with. Or you can continue to console yourself by considering me a bewakoof for not engaging in discussion with a genius like you. whatever makes you happy.

masadi,

If it’s any consolation … I think you are taking tahmed way too seriously. Not too long ago he was cheering the Iraq war while questioning sensibilities of those critical of the invasion. Now he’d rather visit his dentist than review his ignorance or the superficial, third-rate article he wrote on Chowk (you know which one) …

Furthermore, not too long ago Sahib was suggesting that while Zardari has looted the country, Nawaz has supposedly made his wealth honestly by setting up industrial units. This was another load of crap from our google scholar …

But I don’t think he is being dishonest deliberately. In all likelihood he really is that kind of a feel-good “baewakoof aadmi� … who is unable to think beyond snappy sound-bites. I am not sure if it is his fauji background ... or obsessive desire to lectures others on the Book … or his self-aggrandized hobby where he “enjoys worrying about the future of mankind� (rolling my eyes) … that have done him in. Take your pick …

In #39, maybe you two

Tahmed writes "#39 Thanks. I read the first para. and didnt waste time with the rest for reasons explained earlier. "

Tahmed sahib, salam and greetings of peace. I find your above response a non-response and quite illiterate if I might add. Just as "illiterate" as you claim that the Army stayed out of the Feb elections or will stay out of the future ones. As a product of military upbringing, you might not realize that it was not Musharraf but the military that is calling the shots and like him they need to be de-wardified.

Hamid sahib, Leadenwinter has views similar to yours, maybe you too should meet up and start a foster home/ guest house for former dictators and thugs....

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

# 46 was not supposed to be on this board.

Sorry.

Re: # 42 Posted by hamidm2 on August 22, 2008 9:59:29 am

hamid mian,

you say....{jaisa mun waisee chapair!}...So, are you promoting varying degrees of chapairs? How are you going to enforce uniformity?

DM ji,

You are right. Sikhs are part of the same culture. I never meant to blame any one religion. It's our joint 5000 years old heritage. We just want to look for ourselves and 500 feet away there can be another poor neighborhood where people are starving or getting killed and it won't bother us.

Re: # 41 Ahmadzai.... You have point.
I like Mqm as blood is thicker than water. Internally in nation all are problems of ethinic troubles and one can not be immune from that.
Look Punjabis have Punjab, Sindhis have rural sindh etc.
Now you should keep in mind even today as Mature aged leader mr. Atta Ullah Mengal said is distillation of his observations.
" we are pakistanis for 50 years and Balochis for last 2000 years. Pakistani thing may go but baloch will be Baloach for ever".
Now every body has state but real "pakistanis/ Hindustani Muslims" are homeless they have no province.
Now they are in minority and are hated for their success, they are not trying to dominate any body but hoping to survive in "ethinic" mad neighbourhood. They are understress and are afraid if all others began to say all at our costs as Already Native sindhis say openly. Kindly look at what people like Dr. Magsi say. Many openly advocate of expelling to India or some to even arabian sea also. The community is under duress for long years and sufferings. Now balochis are demanding no nonbaloch in their province etc. All have state what about Mohajirs. They are just reacting to others they are not aggressive but assertive for due share and state support. This Urban , rural didive is instrument of discrimination. They are keeping cool as directed by Altafbhai. They are supporting Zero for president just to have fair treatment not favors. Altafbhai is trying best to save his group from wrath of going to be powers. ( They have suffered lot , including killing when BB and NS presided our mini nazi blitkriz).Up to now MQM had edge due to numbers. But as WOT refugees pour from NW and the numbers have started slowly changing. Soon with intencification ot WOT more millions will pour from north, peope who come to cities never go back but invite more. Here is catch , all others can add strength but MQM can not as Indian Muslims or Biharis will not be accepted. So in next 30 years Mohagirs will be handicapped and soon will loose it is writing on wall. So MQM tries to balance to situation. Just like blacks are fearing Hisponic explosion at disadvantage to them. There is no black influx in usa but latin america people are pouring in. It is demographic loose loose for Mqm and Blacks.
So I do not criticise people who are worried about future are Mohajirs or Hindustani Muslims. This argument of all are same is foolish. Just like as desi children are born in USA can not become black , or hispanic or white dominant group but they are deshi and will have group interests and will react as group protection.
Good night. bye

hamidm: i think you need a psychiatrist.

Ahmedzai #41 I think your analysis is quite realistic. Zardari, like Musharraf, is making the mistake of focussing on court politics - while staying away from national politics, which (as in case of musharraf) are beyond his depth.

Zardari (and in karachi, mqm) will no doubt try to mess with the next elections like musharraf did on Feb 18, but like musharraf will find that with the army staying out of politics, this is no longer so easy. And the lawyer's movement will no doubt continue to hound Zardari unless he restores the Supreme Court - in which case he will find the NRO declared null and void. So, it looks like, despite all his court politics, Zardari (like Musharraf) is making a blunder by ignoring the ultimate court in a democracy - the court of public opinion.

this ugly face deserves the slapping !

..... the unwashed masses who cannot tell their elbow from a hole in the ground, deserve the daily slapping they are getting .........

...... they deserve the monkey baant that is going on between the coalition of thieves, charlatans and mullahs ......"you make me president and have parlaiment ratify the nro and i will reinstate the droopy-eyed cj as long as he gives up the suo moto business" ..... they deserve them because they voted for them

..... and they deserve to be blown up by suicide bombers because they worship the same moon god and can't stop babbling in arabic ..........

.... and they deserve fools like masadi because they believe in the conspiracy theories he spins .......

..... and they deserve tahmed because he is them .........


jaisa mun waisee chapair!

Ejaz saheb:

Thank you. What have you been up to? I was reading your iLog and felt a certain level of despair, whereas the recent achievements of the civil society should have given you lots of hope :-)

Tauheed and Ahmad Madni:

Ahmed’s point reminds me of a good song by a rock band of 80s and 90s Cinderella, “More things change, more they stay the same�. In today’s political scenario, this may apply to all countries. How many other countries have independent foreign policy? More and more countries in the free world are lining up with the USA. IMHO, there is no harm in doing that, but I think Tauheed’s point is great when he says that one could also keep national interest in mind while aligning with the USA.

We need to give democracy a chance in Pakistan to bring real change. Military and establishment will weaken only if democracy finds roots. I believe political parties know this now – a lesson learnt the hard way. I really don’t think that opposition (even if it comprises of PML N in days to come) will go to the extent of inviting military to come back to power. I am expecting PPP to join hands with PML Q, MQM, ANP, and JUI to get going and dump PML N in the process in the near future. I don’t think PML N will start a nation wide agitation though. They will wait for the elections. They will continue to challenge the PPP led Government actions in parliament and continue to gain popularity. On a positive side, if I am wrong, PML N and PPP may continue in the present form, blocking any General’s design or USA’s interest.

Also, I am seeing that Pakistani newspapers have started to criticize PPP and MQM on their double game. For example, Altaf’s proposal for making Zardari the President of Pakistan is already being lambasted. As well, analysts are reporting tremendous surge in the popularity of PML (N). One commentator on GEO noted that under present circumstances, PPP will never go for another elections, because it knows it will be routed all over Punjab and the Pakhtunkhwa.

I am foreseeing full blown media attack on Zardari’s PPP in days to come with MQM coming under pressure again.

But it certainly is strange to me that Ahmed sahib you are criticizing military and establishment all the time, yet you don’t criticize MQM when it chose to side with the military dictator and his cohorts over the judges issue. Or have I misread something somewhere.?

#39 Thanks. I read the first para. and didnt waste time with the rest for reasons explained earlier.

Have a nice day, Mr. Masadi.

Tahmed writes "Please make up your mind whether I am dishonest or honest.."

Tahmed sahib, salam and greetings of peace to you. It is no mystery that I consider you dishonest in the way you deliberately hide the American participation in things you consider worthy of blame. It is for this reason, and not anything personal, that I refer to you as a 'spineless hypocrite'.

Tahmed writes "And there is no question that the US government brokered the deal based on what it perceived to be US interests. There is, I am sure you will agree, nothing wrong with a national government watching out for the national interest"

Tahmed sahib, thank you for confirming what I wrote above regarding your character. What you are saying is that it is ok for the murderer to murder provided he gains something from such behavior. Now, if the US was looking after its interest and in doing so not leaving anyone worse off at the end of the "transaction", then your point might be understandable, but if it butchers an entire nation and ensures its civil institutions remain stunted and firmly establismentized, then "looking out for its interest" would be an exteremly immoral stand to take. It is this immorality of the US elite that you hide and I expose.

Regarding your comment to Mr. Madani, put forth in ethnic and racial terms, regarding his astute observation that the structure hasn't changed, the Pakistan Army is still in command, your post reveals your immorality and lack of intelligence.

Madani sahib, I apologize on the behalf of the ignorant to you that defending my pov has caused you to face these outrageous comments from Mr. tahmed.

Have a nice day,

TNI masadi

mr. madani #37 nothing has changed? you mean your "rising sun" general is still commandeering the nation? you mean your mqm heroes are still out with guns killing Pakistanis seeking freedom??

Yikes!!

Re: # 36 Mr.T you have not understood what Mr.Masadi is saying. He is saying what has happened is fine but at elemental level nothing has changed. Lower level boss ( president) is replaced but nothing has changed all is superficial as still boss is USA of Pakistan. Still all things are controlled by usa and their nasty chamcha UK.Still USA calls shot it is slave , owner relationship. USA is exploiting pakistani people and makes army to kill muslims. I do not agree mostly with ZEmax and Ustruely as they are revolutionary type people I feel like mao and che etc.and their type thinking can lead to revolutions mostly bloody. I am aginst that type stuff as at end of revolutions and after parades there is lot of cruel things. But they have point that armry has become a Americanh instrument /extension of East India company army to control people of Pakistan and exploit them. Some times they make drama of helping people , like soon food will come/ wheat due to PL480 law of usa. Now america has too much wheat and they burn lot so prices keephigh and poor can have cheap bread. Now the bad spoilt wheat which can not be given to animals is shipped to India, pakistan and bangla desh as dispodsal of dirty wheat.
When people of Pakistan will stop war aginst muslims then things will change. Till that please do not raise your expections too high as America as big boss do not care about awam of Pakistan.
Hope that is what masadi wants to put forward and temper childish temper so you do not feel bad after 6 months. We shopuld hope for best but prepare for worst.
Hope now it is clear to you what he is saying. It is like different shirt usa wants instead of General mr. Zardai. He will carry that war aginst muslims for money, dirty money and will work for usa elites. Basically Americans said General now you time is over so pack up and leave and they downsized and put new hand Zardari. Nothing has changed and nothing is going to change. Only usa has found how to get rid of spoiult whaety as aid to pakistan. All are Chors.

Mr Masadi: and one more thing - I differ with you when you say that "The very brave people of Pakistan have little to do with the removal of the tyrant, if their will was what guided this endeavor, "

This is not just a totally unrealistic viewpoint that flies in the face of common sense, it also insults the thousands of Pakistanis whose sacrifices (in the face of ridicule from the likes of hamidm, and in the face of guns, beatings, and imprisonments from musharraf, and in the face of shenanigans by zardari) have foiled musharraf's ambitions of becoming a "hosni mubarak". Please have some gratitude to these patriotic Pakistanis, and dont belittle their historic achievement.

Mr.TNI Masadi: Thanks for inquiring about my welfare. I hope you have had a restful nights sleep and a productive day as well.

While I have no problem with your saying that "you are ignoring the fact" if you feel that is the case, you are accusing me of being dishonest when you say "you are deliberately ignoring the fact". Please make up your mind whether I am dishonest or honest. If the former is the case, then we are both wasting time.

Given that aside from the above, I have no complaints with your post, let me just comment on the substance of what you say. There seems no question that you are right in saying that the US brokered the deal. And there is no question that the US government brokered the deal based on what it perceived to be US interests. There is, I am sure you will agree, nothing wrong with a national government watching out for the national interest.

But what exactly is this US interest in your view? Thanks in advance for your considered response.

#31 masadi

I reserve the right to be uncivil to members of a ghoulish cult that threw the first stone and has never stopped since or even apologized.

#30 masadi

[However your mind reading skills are off...]

But my reading skills are intact.

You have a peaceful day too, but don't drink any prohibited (banned by allah himself) stuff. Or eat any prohibited stuff. Allah is watching with beady eyes what you eat and drink. :)

You all take it easy, unfortunately I cannot spend much time here these days,

TNI Masadi

Ajeya sahib, "Mooslas" is derogatory, kindly refrain from such uncivilized interacts. Also your long copy pastes by pushing and shoving yourself into conversations in which you have nothing to say is quite distasteful and reflects very badly on you. Just some pointers to improve the quality of your interacts here,

Have a good day,

TNI Masadi

#28 Ajeya sahib, thank you for your kind observation. However your mind reading skills are off, I think you need more practice before you master the skill of peering my mind to extract what my "theory" is.

Have a peaceful day and enjoy some beverage of your choice,

TNI Masadi

Tahmed writes "hile no doubt there are serious problems facing Pakistan (made more difficult by the shameless "deal" that BB made with musharraf which resulted in the corrupt zardari being now in power),..."

Ahmad sahib, how are you doing today? Retirement treating you alright? Anything I can do to make your day better?

In what you write in #21, you are deliberately ignoring the fact that the US had a central role in this "deal making" and it was primarily done for US interests and not Pakistani interests and if I may be allowed to take this to its logical conclusion, when the deal fell apart BB's assassination was arranged by the Americans who then brought Zardari into a power position. The very brave people of Pakistan have little to do with the removal of the tyrant, if their will was what guided this endeavor, Musharraf would have been ousted long before, it was the American timetable in consultation with the Pakistan Army that got rid of the dictator to manipulate the role of NS in the equation, and it seems like they have succeeded...

Thank you for your time and gracious attention,

TNI Masadi

#26 masadi

Well according to your theory ("the koran contains all there is to know"), you guys don't need democracy.

You need more Islam.

Good luck!

And here's an article by Francois Gautier:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/16francois.htm

Leadenwinter writes "There is no such thing as democracy. There never has been and there never will be."

One illiterate who was ruling over Pakistan is gone only to leave his peon on Chowk. An "ideal type" democracy might not exist just like an "ideal type" bureaucracy is a mere concept and does not exist in reality. But saying that democracy, any shade or degree of it has never been and never will is illiteracy of the highest calibre befitting a product of the Pakistan Military Academy...

TNI Masadi

More glorious stuff:

http://according-to-mughal-records.blogspot.com/2008/06/exhibit-no_560 8.html

Mooslas claim that hindus were never coerced into converting. Another gem:

http://according-to-mughal-records.blogspot.com/2008/06/exhibit-no_9218. html

Exhibit No. 41: Coercion in Conversion – Case of the chief of Manoharpur. Siyah Akhbarat-i-Darbar-i- Mu‘alla Julus 24, Jamadi I, 7 / 16th May 1681.


“Darbar Khan was ordered (by Emperor Aurangzeb) to send a parwanah to Ihatmam Khan, Kotwal of Garhvitli (at Ajmer) instructing him that if Devi Chand, the dispossessed Zamindar of Manoharpur, who is in prison, becomes Musalman, so much the better for him. or else he is to be killed.

What happened subsequently in this case is further known from Siyah Akhbarat-i-Darbar-i-Mu'alla of R.Yr. 24, Jamadi I, 12 / 21st May 1681 (Exhibit No.41), which says ‘….. when it was conveyed to Devi Chand, the dismissed Zamindar of Manoharpur, that either he became a Musalman or he would be put to death in compliance with the Emperor's orders, he requested that if Zamindari of Manoharpur was restored to him, he would become a Musalman. Upon this, Ihatmam Khan replied, "If you desire to live, you have to become a Musalman; (even then) the Zamindari (of Manoharpur) will not be given to you". He did not agree to it. He was taken for execution when he agreed to become a Musalman. The Emperor ordered, "Make him a Musalman".

Note:

We do not know the ground on which Devi Chand was dispossessed of his estate of Manoharpur but the case provides a very questionable but convincing case of the use of coercion in conversions.

Democracy requires criticism. Which is the opposite of "submission". Muslims are used to "submitting" to all kinds of lies and then propagating them and truth be damned.

Their version of their most celebrated hero, Aurangezeb, is such a case.

There was an exhibition on Aurangezeb held in India, with photocopies of ACTUAL MANUSCRIPTS (that Romila Thapar never wanted to see) being diplayed. Since Chowk has banned pictures on this site, truth-seeking mussalmans (I know, that's a tautology) can go to this site and read the damning information in all it's prostine Arabic glory:

Here's the link for "Aurangezeb As he was according to Mughal records" - http://according-to-mughal-records.blogspot.com/2008/06/blog-post_05.html


A n excerpt:

One of the main objectives of Aurangzeb's policy was to demolish Hindu temples. When he ordered (13th October 1666) removal of the carved railing, which Prince Dara Shukoh had presented to Keshava Rai temple at Mathura, he had observed 'In the religion of the Musalmans it is improper even to look at a temple', and that it was totally unbecoming of a Muslim to act like Dara Shukoh (Exhibit No. 6, Akhbarat, 13th October 1666). This was followed by destruction of the famous Kalka temple in Delhi (Exhibit No. 6, 7, 8, Akhbarat, 3rd and 12th September 1667).

In 1669, shortly after the death of Mirza Raja Jai Singh of Amber, a general order was issued (9th April 1669) for the demolition of temples and established schools of the Hindus throughout the empire and banning public worship (Exhibit Nos. 9 & 10). Soon after this the great temple of Keshava Rai was destroyed (Jan.-Feb. 1670) (Exhibit No. 12) and in its place a lofty mosque was erected. The idols, the author of Maasir-i-Alamgiri informs, were carried to Agra and buried under the steps of the mosque built by Begum Sahiba in order to be continually trodden upon, and the name of Mathura was changed to Islamabad. The painting (Exhibit No. 13) is thus no fancy imagination of the artist but depicts what actually took place.

This was followed by Aurangzeb's order to demolish the highly venerated temple of Vishwanath at Banaras (Persian text, Exhibit No. 11), Keshava Rai temple (Jan.-Feb. 1670) (Persian Text, exhibit No. 12 and Painting, Exhibit No. 13), and of Somanatha (Exhibit No. 14).To save the idol of Shri Nathji from being desecrated, the Gosain carried it to Rajputana, where Maharana Raj Singh received it formally at Sihad village, assuring the priest that Aurangzeb would have to trample over the bodies of one lakh of his brave Rajputs, before he could even touch the idol (Exhibit No. 15)

Aurangzeb's zeal for temple destruction became much more intense during war conditions. The opportunity to earn religious merit by demolishing hundreds of temples soon came to him in 1679 when, after the death of Maharaja Jaswant Singh of Jodhpur in the Kabul Subah, he tried to eliminate the Rathors of Marwar as a political power in Rajputana. But Maharana Raj Singh of Mewar, in line with the great traditions of his House, came out in open support of the Rathors.. This led to war with both Mewar and Marwar during which the temples built on the bank of Rana's lake were destroyed by his orders (Exhibit No. 23, Akhbarat 23rd December 1679) and also about three hundred other temples in the environs of Udaipur. (Exhibit No. 25, Text), including the famous Jagannath Rai temple built at a great cost in front of the Maharana's palace which was bravely defended by a handful of Rajputs (Exhibit Nos. 20, 21).

Not only this, when Aurangzeb visited Chittor to have a view of the famous fort, he ordered the demolition of 63 temples there which included some of the finest temples of Kumbha's time (Exhibit No. 22). From Marwar (in Western Rajasthan) alone were brought several cart-loads of idols which, as per Aurangzeb's orders, were cast in the yard of the Court and under the steps of Jama Masjid (Exhibit No. 19). Such uncivilized and arrogant conduct of the Mughal Emperor alienated Hindus for ever, though they continued to be tolerant towards his creed.

In June 1681, orders, in a laconic two-liner, were given for the demolition of the highly venerated Jagannath Temple in Orissa (Exhibit No. 24, Akhbarat, 1st June 1681). Shortly afterwards, in September 1682, the famous Bindu-Madhav temple in Banaras was also demolished as per the Emperor's orders (Exhibit No. 27, Akhbarat, Julus 26, Ramzan 20). On 1st September 1681, while proceeding to the Deccan, where his rebel son Prince Akbar, escorted by Durga Das Rathore, had joined Chhatrapati Shivaji's son, Shambhaji, thus creating a serious problem for him, Aurangzeb ordered that all the temples on the way should be destroyed. It was a comprehensive order not distinguishing between old and newly built temples (Exhibit No. 26, Akhbarat, Julus 25, Ramzan 18). But in the district of Burhanpur, where there were a large number of temples with their doors closed, he preferred to keep them as such, as the Muslims were too few in number in the district. (Exhibit No. 28, Akhbarat 13th October 1681). In his religious frenzy, even temples of the loyal and friendly Amber state were not spared, such as the famous temple of Jagdish at Goner near Amber (Exhibit Nos. 30, Akhbarat, 28th March and 14th May 1680). In fact, his misguided ardour for temple destruction did not abate almost up to the end of his life, for as late as 1st January 1705 we find him ordering that the temple of Pandharpur be demolished and the butchers of the camp be sent to slaughter cows in the temple precincts (Akhbarat 49-7).

The number of such ruthless acts of Aurangzeb make a long list but here only a few have been mentioned, supported by evidence, mostly contemporary official records of Aurangzeb's period and by such credible Persian sources as Maasir-i-Alamgiri.

In obedience to the Quranic injunction, he reimposed Jizyah on the Hindus on 2nd April 1679 (Exhibit No. 16), which had been abolished by Emperor Akbar in 1564, causing widespread anger and resentment among the Hindus of the country. A massive peaceful demonstration against this tax in Delhi, was ruthlessly crushed. This hated tax involved heavy economic burden on the vast number of the poor Hindus and caused humiliation to each and every Hindu (Exhibit No. 18). In the same vein, were his discriminatory measures against Hindus in the form of exemption of the Muslims from the taxes (Exhibit No. 31, Akhbarat 16th April 1667) ban on atishbazi and restriction on Diwali (Exhibit No. 32), replacement of Hindu officials by Muslims so that the Emperor's prayers for the welfare of Muslims and glory of Islam, which were proving ineffective, be answered (Exhibit Nos. 33, 34). He also imposed a ban on ziyarat and gathering of the Hindus at religious shrines, such as of Shitla Mata and folk Gods like Pir Pabu (Exhibit No. 35, Akhbarat 16th September 1667), another ban on their travelling in Palkis, or riding elephants and Arab-Iraqi horses, as Hindus should not carry themselves with the same dignity as the Muslims! (Exhibit No. 36). In the same vein came brazen attempts to convert Hindus by inducement, coercion (Exhibit No. 41) or by offering Qanungoship (Exhibit No. 44, 45, 46) and to honour the converts in the open Court. His personal directions were that a Hindu male be given Rs.4 and a Hindu female Rs.2 on conversion (Exhibit No. 43, Akhbarat 7th April 1685). “Go on giving them�, Aurangzeb had ordered when it was reported to him that the Faujdar of Bithur, Shaikh Abdul Momin, had converted 150 Hindus and had given them naqd (cash) and saropas (dresses of honour) (Exhibit No. 40, Akhbarat, 11th April 1667). Such display of Islamic orthodoxy by the State under Aurangzeb gave strength and purpose to the resistance movements such as of the Marathas, the Jats, the Bundelas and the Sikhs (Exhibit No. 46).

On the 12th May 1666, the dignity with which Shivaji carried himself in the Mughal court and defied the Emperor's authority, won him spontaneous admiration of the masses. Parkaldas, an official of Amber (Jaipur State) wrote in his letter dated 29th May 1666, to his Diwan. “Now that after coming to the Emperor's presence Shivaji has shown such audacity and returned harsh and strong replies, the public extols him for his bravery all the more …� (Exhibit No. 37). When Shivaji passed away on April 1680 at the age of 53 only, he had already carved a sufficiently large kingdom, his Swarajya, both along the western coast and some important areas in the east as well.

Aurangzeb could never pardon himself for his Intelligence in letting him escape from his well laid trap and wrote in his Will (Exhibit No. 48) that it made him 'to labour hard (against the Marathas) to the end of my life (as a result of it)�. He did not realize that it was his own doing: the extremely cruel manner 'even for those times - in which he put to death Shivaji' son, Shambhaji (Exhibit No. 38) made the Maratha king a martyr in the eyes of the masses and with that commenced the People' War in Maharashtra and the Deccan which dug the grave of the Mughal empire.

Till the very end Aurangzeb never understood that the main pillars of the government are the affection and support of the people and not mere compliance of the religious directives originating from a foreign land in the seventh-eighth centuries.

His death after a long and ruinous reign lasting half a century, ended an eventful epoch in the history of India. He left behind a crumbling empire, a corrupt and inefficient administration, a demoralized army, a discredited government facing public bankruptcy and alienated subjects.


However, mooslas (especially the highly communal ones like Tahmed, Urstruly etc.) will try to either deny or whitewash all of this - for otherwise they would not be mussalmans.

#18 Ahmedzai: I beg to differ on mqm - by killing peaceful democracy demonstrators on May 12 on behalf of a dictator, and by continuing to harbor in its ranks those who ordered the attacks and those who carried them out, mqm falls in the definition of a criminal organization.

Ahmedai bhai #17 i have been well. and hope all has been well with you.

I think we are basically in agreement. I think the thousands of brave Pakistanis who sacrificed their lives or their careers rather than join musharraf's lawless bandwagon have demonstrated once again the truth of the proverb "God helps those who help themselves". And other nations have no choice (for better or worse from their pov) than deal with the de facto government. Thus, while Hosni Mubarak continues his illegitimate rule of egypt, the fact is that egyptians have not had the widespread public uprising that Pakistanis have gone through. same is true for other middle east nations and Cuba (where a dictator ruled for 60 years by claiming to be a "comrade", and then passed power to..his brother!).

While chowk is full of moaning about the end of musharraf's rule, the fact is that with the booting out of the scoundrel, Pakistanis have won a historic victory and shown that they dont tolerate dictators like other nations do. While no doubt there are serious problems facing Pakistan (made more difficult by the shameless "deal" that BB made with musharraf which resulted in the corrupt zardari being now in power), we now have political leaders who know who can hire and fire them - the people of Pakistan.

and those who continue their cynical bemoaning of "sab chor hain" are not just wrong, they are ingrates who dont deserve to live among a freedom loving people - whether in Pakistan or in the US.

There is no such thing as democracy. There never has been and there never will be.

Welcome back Ahmadzai

Ahmed Madni saheb:

Please refer to your various posts.

Although I am against MQM, I give them a credit. They are a democratic party. So I am willing to give them the due respect.

Why I am against them, in political terms of course, is that at a critical juncture of having an option of siding with the oppressed, they chose to side with military dictator and same Chaudhries that they keep blaming as 2 % of population who are the oppressors.

I respect their getting into a coalition with PPP in Sindh and their supporting PPP in the proposed impeachment of Musharraf. They did a wonderful thing there.

And you don’t have to get into any sort of white versus colored versus black debate. Ever since I have moved out of Pakistan, I have come to find out that all Pakistanis are considered to be same shade – terrorists – thanks to Western and Indian propaganda – but that is controllable, although difficult in the short run.

Re: # 6

Tauheed Saheb:

I remember you all this while hahaha. Kia haal hay aap ka?

In a way you are right. However, my point was slightly different.

All I am going to say is that now we have democracy and that it can get derailed by a combination of both of the following:

1. External influence from the USA that I mentioned in my original post. It is a well known fact that USA’s aid to Pakistan was highest during Zia’s and Musharraf’s regimes, and lowest during the democratic governments of PML and PPP in the 80s and 90s. The democratic governments were starving of funds.
2. Inefficiency and corruption of our elected people to power.

I agree that USA cannot influence anything in Pakistan unless our rulers and military generals give into them. I read in one of the recently published articles that USA tried to convince General Kiyani to take over the government. However, the latter refused.

As regards Musharraf, the less said about him the better. People like me supported him like anything on his immediate post 9/11 agenda. However, what he did later on is totally bizarre. A person has to be a natural born bay-ghairat to stoop so low.

Re: # 4
ahmed....

Kind of stupid comment...
Have you forgot, how Pakistani establishment treated Mujibur Rehman?

Indian democracy was not in good shape upto late 80s. Congress monopoly was not less harmful than your army capturing power in Pakistan. Now, Indian democracy is far better.

Pt. Manadarji,

"having a "Quaid" who makes moronic speeches from overseas are also negatives that the party should revisit."

There used to be another Quad (aka Dracula aka MAJ) who also gave bombastic speeches and in idealistic verbiage in desi land but were actually meant for overseas white audience. This new Quaid is following the original one but in reverse way. He "makes moronic speeches from overseas" for desi audience. Nothing changed in 61 years.

Re: # 11 Masadi you are powerful in think as you tell truth.
I have learned lot from your writing , some times i may not agree with all. But basic thesis is Dandy and on point.
Due to i have lost my fair color pride and I have great understanding which transcends color barrier though it is still hard. Mr. T always critise me Recist etc is wrong. He does not understand preference is different than discrmination. Unfortunately this recist people are even in Saudi arabia where materially it is better than usa.
British have left India but still we are slaves and all this beautification of making pale face by indo paki men and women is kind of White race worshipping at great artistic level. Some times I get Frustrated even after 200 years deshi brown brit slaves/ sahibs will be going church of white boss worshipping Church.
I am very happy for your change good for you and you can conveypolitely your thoughts.

g'night

Re: # 10, 20% responsibility is american as through greed of out politicains and army officers they have made them slaves who will kill muslim brothers just to have few hundred dollars in pockets. And this is not liked by any moral people and so they are punished by nature. Now all recent problems on north western fronts are due to greed of dollars and lots of people are going to be wiped out in this till army comes to senses. Now when mr. Kayani flew topay homage to USA military man and pick up cheques who is in charge kayani or Zero or Hero ? Both dead drunk with big hunt of Musharaff they are not even acting effectively. Robot PM goes to usa and says It is pakuistani war. Money makes slave is true. Where is democracy when general decides importanyt aspects war where is democratic control of zero or hero. All farce American keep them and have no values more than Chaparasi.
But we will go through all farce and its on auto pilot.

Madani sahib,

ours is a racialized world thanks to Euro/American over lordship in world affairs. It is of little surprise that when someone wants to devalue a group it will imitate the practices of their "lords and masters", and try to place their opponents in the lower rungs of the color line. That said, the MQM is overly ethnocentric itself and that certainly does not help regarding national identity. Support of anti state elements like the dictator Musharraf, indulging in ethnic and political violence on their behalf and having a "Quaid" who makes moronic speeches from overseas are also negatives that the party should revisit.

Thank you for your kind attention and generous support,
Have a good day,
TNI Masadi

Ahmedmadani sahib,

Good morning. It is always refreshing to read no bs, straight from the gut stuff from you.

BIGGEST supporter of dictetorship and army of Pkistan was Indian Democrasy. While they wanted to push back Pakistan in dark ages so supported Pakistani army by indirectly keeping Covert and overt war.

Sadly, there is an element of truth in it. Although it may have been accidental and not fully intentional. Also the Indian leadership exported some undesirable characters like Molana Maudoodi in 1947 to Pakistan to create chaos there.

Regards

Unfortunately when people cruticise MQM there is lots of recism and color prejudice. Now Panjabis or Sindhi all others are not real white like real europrean They are wanabi white( comapred to indians and afroicans) but never be truely considered white. Unfortunately. I am sorry but that is truth.

Re: # 7 I do not support anybody, only people who wants to good and help people of Karachi.Only MQM fills the bill.Even astute observer and who have travelled many countries , and management consultant (High Tech) like Romair has said MQM has only modern charasteristic . ( He is not fan of MQM but he has to admit others do not as his military specially airforce background makes him give honest opinion and write diplomatically.
Again Please do not write anything bad about MQM as due to ignorance and prejudice you have totally wrong opinion. You can avoid mistakes by not saying anything .
You are ignoring violent people like BLA and tribal lakshars and going after MQM ,now some times oppressed peoples anger goes out of control like PPP wallahs took opportunities just to loot after demise of Mrs. Bhutto. If you remember some bad things happened in Karachi and Altafbhai decided to Resign.That is called leadership. He wants political struggle by peaceful way like mr. Gandhgi. Altaf likes peace so he said good words about mr. Gandhi, though we know he was no good as many indians like mujumdar have also said
Good day.

Re: # 5 Please leave obsession with Karachi,MQM, Quaid E Awam Altaf Hussain. He has come out to support mr. Zardai for president as he wants power controlled by native Sindhi. This because as there is unfortunately no better candidate. As they blood is thicker than water as new sindhi and native sindhis can work out problem. MQM is democratic than any party and non dynastic. All others can learn from MQM unity, decipline and faith. Sad part is MQM candidate can do better justice but they have numbers as only progressive modern people vote for MQM. All others vote on caste, ethinic , tribal and what not. Please keep out crtiticism of MQM. Now all mess done will be done by others, only MQM will give support to give stability to govt. Mr. Zero and Hero can learn lot from Altafbhai. He rarely leaves London and works all time for his social, political work. He can also goon tours. Altafbhai belives in intensive work working at MQM international HQ.Hope Zero and Hero spend some time at home than all time going out of country.

Ahmedzai: welcome back.

please dont follow the easy course of repeating the conventional wisdom in Pakistan which treats the US as some kind of an omnipotent being without whose permission "even a bird may not fall". Rather than a nation with legitimate self-interest in fata - namely, preventing the armed bands of men hiding their from conducting future 9/11 type disastrous attacks on it. If musharraf cared as much for the safety of the Pakistani people, he would have joined hands with the US to eliminate these thugs once and for all. Instead, he made a career out of it by playing both sides of the fence.

As for the US influence, think about this: the military did not interfere in Feb 18 elections - and what changed was not the US, but the C-in-C on the army: the lawbreaker musharraf being replaced kiyani whose actions have shown him to be serious about his duties, unlike the self-promoter musharraf. What reasonable conclusions does one draw from this?

#4 the US and India did not come out with guns to kill peaceful demonstrators - the mqm (which you support did).

and the truth is that india and the US are democratic nations where the rule of law has been steadily strenghtened.

hypocrisy and lies did not spare your "rising sun" musharraf. they will not spare mqm and zardari either. because truth is "khuda ki lathi" - and truth ultimately prevails.

USA and India have kept Pakistan from attaining true democray. When nation stated India annexed mercylessly State oF Nizam ( which survived more than Mughal empire and Indian "democray" invaded helpless state and made HH Nizam Pauper and low paid pensioner). That was indirect starting war on Pakistan. Then invaded Kashmir and occupied Kashmir. So pakistan was put on war footing even though they wanted friendship with Indians. So Pakistan was in all war going situation. That gave omnipotent position to army and democracy agenda had no value when existance was at stake. BIGGEST supporter of dictetorship and army of Pkistan was Indian Democrasy. They allowed and developed democracy in their country and cut armry to size just as branch civil govt. While they wanted to push back Pakistan in dark ages so supported Pakistani army by indirectly keeping Covert and overt war. Then what all people were thinking came true when india army march on east Pakistan and broke pakistan.
This created siege mentality in army and people. The only think state think of was making army strong and well equiped. When enemy has broken your home only people think of army to protect them. Some may say Indian act was not deliberate but it does not matter the damage was done.
Now america has done more damage but atleast they pay. But americans suppoer army to rule Pakistan and as they micromanage so much now democracy is not possible. NRO is american trick to control rulers and PPP. This is effectively done.
India is 80% responsible , usa is 20% responsible making democracy unviable in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Welcome back, Ahmadzai. It's been a long time.

Alslaam-o-Alaikum.

I have joined the forum after a long time.

This passage from Bina’s article is of interest.

“America is perceived as one of the major factors keeping him in place, as a key ally in the ‘war on terror’. Washington has now started realising the need to back the people of Pakistan and the elected government rather than an unelected president and army. The ‘war on terror’ cannot be won by military means alone. It is important to support the political process and take the people along.�

All Pakistanis know it that it was never allowed to be a democracy by the USA who always supported dictators in Muslim countries in the belief that dictators can be easily forced into doing what Americans want them to do rather than to get involved in long processes of parliamentary government. My Observations:

1. USA’s aid to military remained highest under military dictators and lowest under democracy.

2. Common Pakistanis were tortured by the West with a double-edged sword – forcing dictators down our throats who supported extremism to keep themselves going and then using us as a whipping boy in not having democracy and becoming breeding grounds of terrorists.

3. That Pakistanis love democracy cannot be denied. We have always struggled for making Pakistan a democratic country. We were handed 3 martyred popular prime ministers by the dictators or their agents. West never came to our aid.

4. Unlike any other country of the world as far as I can remember, Pakistan is a product of a democratic process. Here is a clip from Wikipedia to this effect:“In the Constituent Assembly elections of 1946, the League won 425 out of 496 seats reserved for Muslims (and about 89.2% of Muslim votes) on a policy of creating an independent state of Pakistan, and with an implied threat of secession if this was not granted.� Let bygones be bygones. Pakistanis need to move forward. Like Pakistani Islamic scholar Ghamdi says, “There is no substitution for democracy. Why do we talk of making Pakistan an Islamic state or a secular state? Let us make Pakistan a democratic state. Democracy itself will bring in what people want from its leaders.�

Bina, thank you very much for writing this article.

Sincerely,

Pakistan will never have democracy because most Pakistanis utterly lack the insaniyat which is its necessary prerequisite and which requires an ability to rise above one's religious bigotry which has been handed down from the past generations and which has been reinforced at its source by none other than Mahomed Ali Jinnah.

Pakistan will never have democracy (except perhaps in name) because it was set up, by design, as an Islamic entity and at its core it is incompatible with the concepts of plurality and is unable to treat non-Muslims as equals.

My sympathies to the awaam as the usual culprits get ready for the next tango.