Faith and Religion

Murarilal G,

"I believe that no religion is perfect and like all human thoughts and traditions has to evolve with changing times, technologies and social conventions. Like it or not the world is moving forward ever faster and with ever greater complexities. Even The Prophet recognised this."

Does it occur to you that its not the thought but the human the one who experiences evolves? When a person reaches Samadhi he has dropped the heavy load of mind long back. When he comes back he is a new being with different awareness. He can not express Samadhi, this happening in thoughts and further into the words of a language. Even if he expresses others who have not gone through such experience would not be able to understand. This is individual experience so even all Buddhas, Mahaviras, Janakas and sages were reluctant to pen it down. Even Shivaji, the Great used to experience this kind of Samadhis time to time, but when he expressed it he called it trance of Bhavani Mata, the family goddess. This is so individualastic experince, it's futile to express. Dharma Shastras or scriptures can only help in preparation for this real purpose of human life by lightening the mind and even body. Dharma came up with YogaAsana and Dhyan/Zen/Meditation practices for that. Bhakti, Tirth Yatras, fasts and Bramhacharya etc have same purpose to prepare body mind and intellect.

Pinkuji we need to reclaim Dharma and make sure that the schooling of our kids happen along these lines. I wish Ganesh Pujas need to be conducted with Ganit (Math) competitions. ShivJayantis with rifle shooting competitions. HanumanJayanti with athletic competition.
What do you think? Diwali need to practiced by bombing practice of bombing Doon schools. How is that? All phatakas from all over need to be exploded by packing Doon school gathering hall with phataka explosives. Restrict noise and air pollution to one place. Rest of India should enjoy this phataka exploding on TV.

Re: # 90
Pinku you are quite right about Sufi being derived from the word Souf for a lenght of unstitched wollen cloth that was the only matrial posession of a sufi.

But you are quite wrong about the Macedonians. You should read a fascinating book `The Land of the Great Sophie' by Sir Roger Stephens (Methuen) before rushing to your generalisations about me.

Dear Eklavya im just leaving for Punjab (re a biomass power project for which Im a consultant) so Ill revert in two days.

Murad aka Murarilal Lakhapurkar G,

If you are not practicing Shantist ie Islamist then would you please officially rechristen yourself to celebrate your roots to Murarilal Lakhanpurkar or if you do not like Lakhan then Gomatikar. For Allaha sake live your words. We know India is in hands of old boy Doon network. So low consciousness might be able to hog media just because they have right convent accent.

Abrahmic Ggiri is for uprooting people culturally, dividing families, and subjugating "other" people. That is why I say India needs yet another freedom struggle to free itself from Abrahmic G-giri.

Netaji Palkar, Shivaji the Great's general was bribed to get converted to Shanti aka Islam, when captured by Mughals. Shahajahan was shitting on Delhi throne at that time not G Aurangzeb. (BTW Shahajahan son of Hindu mother was equally cruel to Hindus. One should investigate why the progeny of converted moms turn so saddistic ..is it because the mother is hating the baby which she is carrying against her will? is it because she does not get milk after she delivers the baby? It is so inhuman .. I guess the devils have roots there...our Afghani brothers might be suffering from this civilizational disease called Abrahamitis) Shivaji, the Great knew this trick of dividing Marathas by converting some of them. At the first chance Shivaji the Great did "Shuddhikaran" of Netaji Palkar and also gave hand of one of his close relative to his son.

If one wants to stop what is happening in Orissa, NE, Kashmir Dharmic folks have to rise up. These Abrahmic Gs will nuke each other. Orthodox Russia does not understand for economic well being of its people one does not need to follow the Abrahmic grabbing of other peoples land and resources. As the Chinese ambassador to USA in late eighties conveyed in a gathering of Asians in Bell Labs, India ruled and influenced China by its ideas and Dharma for more than 1K years without sending a soldier or transfer of material wealth from China to India. He was very sad to find India in such a dire state at that time (Punjab, Kashmir and NE violence) because this devillish Abrahmic concept of re-legion. There is something in Dharmic folks that it creates todays Japans, Chinas, NRIs and rising India. Abrahmized south central America, central Asia, Iran, Arabia and Africa is no where near in civilizational progress. Dharma is humunazing. Re-legions are dehumanizing, enslaving divisive devillish concept.

Next time our bro Murarilal starts comparing Dharma with religion, ask him how do you take this religion ... does it go with chikken tikka gravy or sukhi chikken tandoori. These durbari Gs as I said before are good for describing Lenin's goaty and Sophia's Zanty. They are very superficial. In one sentence they will say they follow and like Sankhya, in next sentence Tao and then Buddha. If you ask them to write few lines on Sankhya then they run away.

So, MurarilalG I am still waiting for your few lines on sankhya.


Pinkuji and other folks lets not waste time MurarilalG and other Gs such as EkG and TG. Worry about how we can convert India into China and Japan, a Dharmic progressive one community. Poor Abduls and Salmas are not same as these Gs we need to embrace them and make sure that they give up on religious Ggiri.

Re #87 Posted by muradbaig
Hmm so finally plain deception??

SOHPIE in Greek means wisdom and Sufi in Arabic was related to man of wools.

Where did Greek called Persia land of Sophie??? It is customary for Islam to keep inventing such lies. Now Sufis date back to Alexandar?? For general people (read wikipedia or Jstor articles), rest assured till Islam arrived the Sufis didn't arrive. The sufis were not there in the time of Muhammad himself, forget BCs. Please give a round of applause fo Murad Baig for generating lot of false history to balm Islamic ego. This is natural for Islam, they invent lot many such things. In the times of Alexandar and much before Greeks regarded Indians and Brahmins (Gymnosophists, Bachchanans, Brahmans) as greatest in wisdom.

Your article doesn't (and your book won't as well) reflect that you write history or facts, it reflects that you are normally very biased to paint Islam less bad. For hinduism you have not been able to say when it was bad, and how much. I told you in your earlier article that when it comes to degree the difference is 1 to 1000. You can not change that fact of history.

First you haven't answered my zipsies related comment. Second, your whole attempt

Murad bhai, hopefully, you do know one or two specific things wrong with Islam itself or with the Quran itself, and not with your or mine interpretations of them.

It would be mighty silly to try to show others that Islam was "not as bad" as others think if it is the perfect religion in your view (given that beyong vague feelings, you know nothing specifically wrong with either of them, and not with our interpretations of them.)

Murad bhai,

(1) So please give us one or two specific things that are wrong with Islam itself and/or with the Quran itself - not with your or mine interpretations of those. For instance, one or two things that Hinduism may have got right while the Quran might have got that wrong?

(2) So I take it your criticism of 'wahabi hertics' for opposing the worshipping of Muhammad and Islamic saints was wrong, and 'wahabi heretics' were in this specific case simply asking people to follow Islam. Did we get that right, murad bhai?

Re: # 85

I believe that no religion is perfect and like all human thoughts and traditions has to evolve with changing times, technologies and social conventions. Like it or not the world is moving forward ever faster and with ever greater complexities. Even The Prophet recognised this.

I never said that Muslims worshipper saints. Islam is very definite about this even if many people are followers of pirs and sufi saints. But remember Sufis were around long before Islam. Alexanders macedonians called Persia the land of the great sophie.

Murad bhai, in case you miss that last post, I would re-state the question. Isn't Islam a perfect religion (so any comparison with Hinduims is silly and your efforts are misdirected)?

If Islam is not perfect, and if the Quran is not perfect, what is wrong with Islam itself, with the Quran itself - not with your or mine or anybody else's interpretation of it?

Many thanks in advance.

Murad bhai, welcome.

If your objective is merely to show that Islam was good and Hinduism was bad then you make a good effort. A bit unnecessary though, since Islam is, as you would agree with many, a perfect religion and Hinduism has no good in it.

(By the way, if you by any chance do not agree that Islam is a perfect religion, then please help us by telling us what is wrong with Islam - Islam itself, not your or mine mistaken understanding of it.)

And if you have time, please clarify to NB ji what you meant by those Wahabi 'heretic' even opposing the worshipping of Muhammad and islamic saints.

Thanks a million. I am assuming you would not be too busy.

Re: # 49
Dear Pinku

I have no desire to dilute or exaggerate the good and bad of either Islam or Hinduism but to stick to the historical progression of these and other ideas. But Islam was not always as bad as many in India think nor was Hinduism as good. There were many good and bad patches in all traditions that the mythologists on both sides either cover up or exaggerate. Mythology is not history and often distorts historical knowledge.

Genghiz was a ruthlessly cruel ruler in a very cruel age but if you read Jack Weatherfords very readable history you will see that he was also a remarkable pragmatic, accomodating and tolerant human as well. Though he was devoted only to the `eternal blue sky' he allowed buddhisn, christianity and islam without any restrictions and by opening the trade and transmission of ideas between China and India to the west contributed to the renaissance of Europe.

But since we live in the world of all kinds of interpretations, Murad bhai may help by clarifying that he personally opposes "the worshipping of Muhammad or other saints and praying at tombs."

Before we can buy his stuff we just want to know he is not distorting the 'original message' of Prophets - a charge he levies at everyone but himself.

nb ji, please credit tahmedji and others with some basic intelligence.

Mr Baig criticizes 'Wahabis' for, among many other evil things, "even (opposing) the worshipping of Muhammad or other saints and praying at tombs."

It is not an evening loiter to the dear sufi tomb that Baig Sahib is referring to, that a Muslim may indulge in if "he or she wants to."

Tahmed32, how is a man like you fooled so easily? All that Mr Baig seems to say there is that people should have the freedom to visit Sufi saints' tombs etc if they want. For Kaal to extrapolate that is bad enough, but for you to believe it is mind-boggling.

Re #79 Posted by crazyghan

Perfect.


For a non-arab convert (say south asians or even whites), it takes only one generation to become slave to his/her pseudo Arab/Islamic identity. The first generation is forced and later generations are slave of their own forced identity/ego

Till they confront and accept truths about Islam, nothing good can come out of anything. South Asia went into mess because of Islam. Islam degraded life, no historians ever wrote poors in India or suppression of any sect or jaati in India. As I said the tons of Bhangis, poors emerged after Islamic inavders started settling in India. Most of them were Rajputs. All type of Hindus but mainly Rajputs were captured and killed by these Islamic rulers, exported as slaves and mny escaped as Zipsies, who now live in Europe and elsewhere. Ask Murad Baig to check history of zipsies and he will attempt another distorted theory. But what I am saying is based on their customs, DNA profiles and their own internal history


It is not a myth but the fact that India/South Asia has suffered more than any other part of world at the hands of Islam/Arabs. Islamic invaders looted the farmers, kings and everyone and did nothing but enjoying luxury. India was heaven for them.

We have our own people converted to Islam with whom we can not even reason properly. Those people whose fathers were butchered, whose mothers and sisters were raped and sold openly are NOW protector of Islam. Islam did same thing to Africans. Sold them for centuries and then converted them to Islam(the group ego).

India was beyond comprehension in terms of civilization for Arabs and even rest of the world till 7AD. Most sophisticated thoughts and very good life styles originated in India. Even the concept of Gym was exported to Greece from India. Arabs and Islam destroyed and weakened this civilization by converting/killing its people.

Technically speaking Islam/Christianity/Judaism and majority of the prevalent religions are 'organized religions', that is that these religions act as established institutions. Islam in particular provides a 'complete' code of life meaning that it intervenes socially, culturally, morally, politically as well as financially. While Christianity has come to coexist with the separation of Church and State, Islam is opposed to any form of Secularism and terms it as 'haram'.
It is evident that Muslim South Asians are so culturally controlled and influenced by the Arabs that most never consider themselves relatives with non-Muslim South Asians. They write in Arabic script, dress like Arabs, have Arab names, spend millions on visiting Arab lands, eat like Arabs, die like Arabs, lives like Arabs, read and learn Arabic history and remain sincerely loyal to Arabs, Saudi Arabia in particular - slow cultural death can barely be any worse. Shia/Sunni fundamentalists are no different to Wahabis and coexistence is therefore impossible if you are feverishly attached to 1400 years old fundamentals and events.
Blind and senseless faith may smell like rose but stings with its sweetness and kills with impunity before you have even realized it.

Pinku, that is a matter of faith. 'Prophets' either bring messages/wisdom straight from the Big God or are very human charlatans depending upon whethther one is a believer or not. That's the situation even with such an out and out imposter as late brother Mirza Ghulam bhai sahib.

In fact, that's another nail in the coffin of this all-prophets-preach-good-and-right-messages-and-only-their-followers-mess-up theory.