Faith and Religion

Re: # 44

chronology my dear nb!

All of that, yes, akcheema, but you will have noticed most of this was written about around a 100 years ago. How often do you read these literary "outbursts" now?
I am aware that secular Jews have often been more Zionist than anyone else too (and I am also aware of the tussle between secular and religious Jews in Israel and throughout the Jewish community). I don't know if you misunderstood my question!

Re: # 42; nb

may I suggest Russel's "why I am not a christian" or some of the stuff Antony Lowenstein talks about .... and I am pretty certain their basic morality and other such concepts still had deep roots within their respective Christian or Jewish heritage ... they still had/have the "need" to write, did they not?

in fact during the 19th and 20th century, there was a "literary outburst" of epidemic proportions by "heretic" writers ... and I am sure they all still celebrated Christmas and Easter (or Hannukka) with their families!!

... in fact, majority of groundwork in the Zionist movement around the world has been done by the so-called "non-religious/atheistic jews"! that list includes Mr Ben-Gurion ... the first PM of the State of Israel ... may be you should read up on this "conflict" too before getting carried away!

unless I misunderstood your question to Murad Beg completely?

have to go but will talk again no doubt

Murad Ali Baig, I believe the real story is that you feel the need to write an article like this. There are so many people who share your general inclinations, but who happen to be of Jewish or Christian or dare I say it, Hindu descent, that an article by any of them on these lines would be unremarkable.
I would also like to point out that a number of your 'core' beliefs and interpretations of reality are heavily influenced by Islam. But you knew that already.
Overall, good for you, but why did you need to write this? I'm sure you have an answer, I just can't see it.

hmm..

Murad,

If you are indeed what you say (but do not claim to repeat the Abrahmic lies) then I am all for people like you.

Re: # 38; Tahir sahib

[[what in God's name is a 'non-practising Muslim'? ]]

two types sir,

1 - the "non-believers" (born with a Muslim heritage but saw sense later in life through personal endeavour ... and 'thinking outside the box' as it were) .... hence "don't belive or practice group" and

2 - those who are "munaafiqs" ... and the latter group includes those who boast a kind of "imaan" that makes them exempt from ritualism and the affects of general basic Islamic jurisprudence when they vehemently advocate those for others!

there are many belonging to the latter group who openly advocate a "taliban" style governement, but deny the value of ritualism in Islam and also openly do things clearly described as "haraam" within the Quran (the 'origina' OR 'asadite version'), such as alcohol, zina etc ... as a matter of fact, boast upon these clearly haraam qualities with some sense of pride ... however would vehemently deny those same "vices" to their fellow men under the Muslim jurisprudence .... you know the type Tahir sahib! ... "the believing yet non-practicing group".

I'd, of course class myself in the former group (much to your dismay) .... my association is purely that of "ethnicity" and not that of "belief".

Trust you NKG to kick off with that old ploy of trying to shoot the messenger instead of commenting on the pros and cons of the message. I think Chowk readers would much prefer the products of your mind than to your empty flatulance.

Other interacts have questioned whether I am really a Muslim or not. I have clearly said that I follow no religion but do not deny that I have inherited a Muslim name with a recorded ancestry that I am proud of. But these do not mean that this messenger is disqualified from expressing his views for others to evaluate.

Pinku is quite correct that there are many generalisations in this article but these are not intended to create a base to attack any religion. I never said all religions are equally good or bad and have not singled out any except for the basic ideas of Buddhism that appeals to me. No interactor has so far contradicted any of the generalisations.

I may not believe in any religion but have never condemned anyone for their faiths or religious beliefs. For me the litmus test is:

Does faith or religion contribute to personal and social harmony?

Sadly most religious, national and political identities fail this test and are usually the main causes of the violence and hatreds that so plague our societies today

Mr. Baig, what in God's name is a 'non-practising Muslim'? Surely Prophet Muhammad (peace on him) never showed us THIS way?

I suggest you return to PRACTISE; the rest is all idle talk and pseudo-intelleculism, a mix of this with a dash of that, a spiritually useless cocktail.

Peace.

# 35 "According to Nietzsche the only reason we live in families, communities, tribes, nations, states, churches is simply to prepare for war with others."

LOL
In the nearest language, it always works.

And Furthermore ....Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine.

This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception." There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.

According to Nietzsche the only reason we live in families, communities, tribes, nations, states, churches is simply to prepare for war with others.

The religious contingent of humanity; although they insist on posing as peaceful and on falsely equating their faith with goodness as well purporting the fear of god to a basis for morality are in fact the most belligerent, malcontent, perverse and indeed ugly representations of mankind and remain the avant-guard of all criminality and inhumanity.

mr. baig,
your personal faith is your own choice but describing yourself as a 'muslim who doesn't believe in any organised religion' is actually an oxymoron and a contradiction. it is perfectly possible to be a non-practising Muslim but not to be a Muslim if you don't believe in any organised religion which, presumably, per your understanding, includes Islam too?
So you're a Muslim who doesn't believe in Islam?!

Re: # 32
yeah! only if he gets it.

#31 Matloob, Message is simple, clear, concise and fits very well for a war time society just like when and where it was delivered. Apply it in a pacified society like in India or even Europe, you'll certainly kill a few unsuspecting ones, but then you'll be suspected. Don't blame discrimination by others. When Murad blames all religions, I read his own religion of birth, in view of his (and probably of all of us)personal safety.

Now how to tackle an aggressive paranoid, put him in the couch if you can and go with him slowly over his past. Help him take out the imagined hostility & conspiracy theories by others. When he is reconciled with his history, he'll be as pleasant and pacified as others. That is what I'm asking Murad to work for, if he is serious. regards

Re: # 29
Oh well! you say things. That makes it altogether a different story.
When it comes to following a faith as an individual I find myself committed and do not accept that my devotion is meant to be measured by others like myself and only subject to an assessment by the one I believe in as the Supreme Authority. Based upon this I do take into consideration scholars who know more than I do to learn but nothing like mufti's or mullahs who with their ill skills twist & manipulate and even go to the extent of manipulating things to favor them personally.
In as much as I am concerned and without imposing on anyone else I find that the message is clear, concise and simple based on the logical existence of humans and their innovative brains, prior to blaming the industry of mufties and mullahs it is important to understand that it is us who have been shopping their flawed products and encouraging them to carry more of the same for too long, this places the responsibility with "us" for promoting and patronizing what we describe now as a bad experience which compels us to look for other innovations, once again depriving ourselves of the truth.
If one makes a sincere effort they will find a right size and right color shirt to wear which is better than tearing up a pair of pants and using one of the legs instead of a sleeve and cut half of a shirt to cover the other side of our body, put the collar where coattail goes and the cuffs at the shoulder, wear two different style shoes on each foot;imagine what a clown one would look in such an attire finding a little of what one likes from here and there and put it all together! sounds like the story narrated by the author.

Re: # 28
Very true sir.