Faith and Religion

Greetings Murarilal G:

You need to calm down a bit and take a deep breath.

I am an American and nobody here cares two bits for those pointy head college intellectuals who stick their nose into places they do not belong and distort everything with their armchair philosophy. These are people who have own phobias and addictions, who are overly involved with themselves and their ideas, and are always trying to outdo each other and are constantly seeking praise from their peers by writing shocking things and supporting liberal ideas and values that have been passed down to them.

You are correct in calling them elitists, but I doubt that any of them are white Christians. For instance, this Jeffrey Kripal you reference, who wrote Kali's Child, seems to be very focused on sex in general and on homosexuality in particular, and on the face of it, seems to be a gay activist. He obvhiously read homosexuality into Hindu writings where it simply did not exist.

Now me, I am a white Christian. I hardly ever even think about Hinduism and I never read these 'intellectual books' that has so offended you. Why, because it would be a big waste of my time. Reading them is counter-productive. Reading many such books can seruously damage one's mind.

I am a typical american. we work 8 hours a day. We try to put food on the table, raise our kids to be respectful, kind, courteous, and to get them a good education. In our spare time we may play a sport. I use to run a mens softball team for 15 years. I spent another 12 years coaching boys baseball. For 15 years I was involved in Christian Boys Service Brigade where we had fun, did great activities, and our ultimately goal was to help boys become men who will have leadership skills and do the good that God created them to do.

Now I am not totally ignorant of India. I studied Indian history in college, I read a half a dozen biographies on Mohandas Ghandi, whom I admired greatly. I admired the legal system that the British brought to India, but I hated the British elitism: how they looked down on India's people, exploited the Indian people, made them use separate bathrooms, water fountains, etc. and that horrid massacre at the black whole of calcutta. They were very unChristian in their practces.

I also supported two Hindu children to get an education. Mootilal SubMit and Ravi Sundaraj. And I worked along side many Hindu's in the construction/Engineering field and we got along very weel, trating each other as friends and with mutual respect. So please do not extrapolate those few bad apples that write those awful ungodly books with the rest of us.

Yours Truly,
Artur

Murarilal G,

Gadi Ko Maro Goli! I have not yet seen your progressive identity card with name Murarilal Lakhapurkar and also heart felt condolence for slaying of Swami and four swaminis/students. You are a hopeless Gandu #1. So please feed it back your preaching secularism in your cula ie rear hole. You are not different from "wordy" gandus such as Allaha Ki Maa who by their words cause deaths of millions and plunder.
=============

Till When will the Conversions Go On?

Tarun Vijay worries about the indifference among Indians for social destabilization being caused by the well-funded conversion campaign

Kandhmal is a tribal district of Orissa. Out of its total population of about 6 lakhs, about 52 percent belong to the Kandh tribe, who are mostly Hindus. In 1857, the local Kandh hero Chakra Bishoi rallied the local people and fought a brutal battle with the British. Immediately afterwards, the British let loose an army of missionaries to trigger mass conversions in the area so as to teach the Kandhs a lesson and pacify the area. The Kandhs, however, did not budge from their Hindu faith or their loyalty to the country and did not allow the strategy of British imperialists to succeed.

The missionaries took it as a personal insult and challenge. As a strategy to defeat the Kandhs, they kept assembling a lot of foreign funds in the area for proselytisation. This barrage of foreign money and aggressive proselytisation had the maximum affect on the local Panas community. Today about one and a half lakh converted Panas live in Kandhmal.
In this background, Swami laxmanand Saraswati arrived in the area in 1969, determined to work for the social and economic upliftment of the tribal people of Kandhmal district. He established an ashram called Chakkpad Ashram that carried forward the tradition of Adishankar in which service of poor people is considered worship of God by other means.

He gave education to thousands of tribal children, strengthened their Hindu faith and by acting as their protector and guardian thwarted many conversion campaigns driven by foreign funds. He was truly a revolutionary saint carrying forward the tradition of Gandhi, Vinoba Bhave and Thakkar Bapa who considered the service of poor and deprived as God worship.
On the day of Janashtami on August 23, some 10 to 15 people carrying AK-47 rifles assassinated him. In the firing, along with him were killed Mata Bhaktimayi, who was the matron of the girl’s hostel at the ashram, Swamiji’s disciple Amritanand and a child’s parent.

The violent incidents that followed were condemned by both the Pope as well as the Italian government. Prime minister Manmohan Singh, instead of rebuffing this attempt of foreign powers to comment on our internal affairs, actually expressed embarrassment at his own country.

India’s Catholic schools remained shut in protest of the violent incidents in Kandhamal that followed the death of Swamiji. In these Catholic schools, most of the students are Hindus, but these schools were not closed when a Hindu saint was murdered in cold blood. With this, the church as introduced to the country the tactic of using school children as pawns to pursue political agendas. This will have its own consequences in future.

Vatican was not bothered in the least that a peaceful Hindu saint doing social work was mercilessly killed by goons who it has been widely alleged are under the protection of the church. Nobody in his right mind can condone any kind of violence because no matter if a Hindu or Christian dies, we are all Indians. But the church and the UPA government in Delhi even communalized the pain of the Hindus over the death of the Swami.

In last year December, there was another attempt on Swamiji’s life which was not successful. After this attempt, many letters were written to the State Government and district administration for providing security to Swamiji but absolutely no action was taken by them. On August 9, in the Kulmaha village near Kandhamal, the Christians held a meeting. The meeting was attended by a notorious office-bearer of the All India Christian Council, the same person who some years ago gave a speech against India in the American Congress.

It essential for law-enforcement agencies to investigate the reason for the presence of this man in Kandhamal for many days preceding Swamiji’s murder. On August 13, a letter was received at Swamiji’s ashram threatening to eliminate him. The local newspapers or Orissa gave this letter a wide coverage, but absolutely no connection was taken by the state government to provide some kind of security to Swamiji.

Swamiji was well known in Kandhamal as a social reformer working in areas such as persuading people not to take alcohol and tobacco, maintain personal hygiene, regularly worship God and send their children for higher education. He established a Sanskrit school for the tribals. Many of his programmes in the areas of economic empowerment and medical facilities are still running in Kandhamal. Who could have gained by his murder? Local Christian elements immediately spread a canard that the Naxals-Maoists are responsible for his murder. This mischievous propaganda stopped only when the Maoists issued an official press release saying they have nothing to do with Swamiji’s killing.

Actually, no religion has been as brutal and barbaric for tribals all over the world as Christianity. The tribals in every Christianised country were converted on the strength of their slaughter. In 1493, Columbus discovered America. At that time, there were ten crore (100 million) tribal Red Indians in Americas as well as the Caribbean islands. Within 100 years of Columbus’ arrival, 70 million of these tribals got slaughtered by European Christians. In Cuba, Puerto Rico and Jamaica, there were 3 million tribals. Within 50 years of Columbus’s arrival, only 200 tribals were left. The rest got slaughtered. (Reference: “The Dark Side of Columbus’ Legacy� by Henry Ramsager.) The tribals of Australia, New Zealand and Brazil were similarly slaughtered or converted.

Social tension in India gets created when church becomes aggressive, abuses Hindu gods and goddesses and gets about converting people by hook or crook using massive resources. Nobody minds if anyone converts to any faith out of his own conviction and free will. But when conversions are done using deceit and force as a strategic move to reduce the Hindu population in an area, it is natural for Hindu anger to boil over.

Why is aggressive Christianity limited only to Hindu and Buddhist countries, and is never seen in Islamic countries? Instead of respecting the natural secularism ingrained in Hindus and Hinduism, the church tries to benefit from it to ensure their extinction.

Murarilal G

Since you like "wordy" G-giri, even though I am not into this and do not completely agree with this, it might be interesting to you:

"The deliberately viscious and hateful portrayal of Hindu civlisation in America is due to a phenomenon called "Hindu Phobia." White Christians, especially American intellectuals and elite who are the defenders of White Man's civilisation, have a visceral hatred of Hindu civilisation, driven by racial and religious motives.

The reason is not far to seek. They take a look at the Hindu spiritual literature -- Vedas, Gita, Upanishads and the six philosophies -- and they have their panties in a twist. There is nothing comparable in the entire western civilisation to this literature, and this Hindu literature got written when the Whites were swinging from trees.

Then they see Yoga, Ayurveda, classical dances, etc. which are the finest expressions of human intellect, and the White racist Christians are rolling in agony. Then they come to our ancient sciences, mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy (the Delhi iron pillar that never rusts), and so on and they realise that they are looking at a formidable, very ancient civilisation that is still alive and well and which can still overtake them in a matter of another five decades. India and Hinduism have a depth that their religion and culture can never hope to match.

In contrast to Hindus, most achievements of Western civilisation are not more than 200 years old. This gives rise to an intense hatred and a wish to destroy and burn everything related to Hinduism to the ground. Hinduphobia is the result. This is nothing new. All inferior civlisations (though temporarily militarily powerful) have this urge when they come face to face with an ancient but highly evolved civlisation. This is how Afghans felt when Mohammad Ghuri invaded India from the poverty stricken barren land of Afghanistan. The Westerners of today, like the Afghans of 1000 year ago, find themselves in the same position -- being militarily powerful over India but intellectually and civlisationally much inferior. (This is the "bully v/s the nerd" paradigm.) All the wealth of the white man acquired in the last two centuries doesn't hide the fact that their civilisation is only skin deep and is already falling apart.

In American academia and power elite, Hindu phobia is now reaching the same intensity as phobia of Jews before the second world war. All these lies and spins about caste, Brahmin supremacy (when Brahmins have always been barred from holding political power in ancient and medieval India), projecting Hindus as fundamentalist barbarians (over-emphasis on sati, female infanticide and abortions, dowry, bride burning, etc.) and never mentioning our civilisational achievements are due to the Hindu phobia of Americans.

We have to be very careful and keep American intellectuals and power elite at bay and not allow them to infiltrate our academia and national space, because they carry an intense hatred of Hindus and Hinduism just under their skin and their objective is our destruction. They are united soldiers of White civilisation and we have to be on our guard.

The American power elite and church still remember the 'Hare Krishna, Hare Rama' hippie days of the sixties very well and their teenagers flocking to Goa and Rishikesh. At no cost do they want their youth to get exposed to hindu spiritual literature again. All this deliberate misportrayal of Hinduism and Hindu civilisation is just a pre-emptive move to keep their youth away from the wealth of our culture, especially its intellectual output over the ages. But try as hard as they can, new challenges of Hinduism infiltratng their civilisation keep cropping up for them. These days they are grappling with the wild popularity of Yoga and the trend of White Yogis adopting Sanskrit names and teaching Yoga Sutras to lay people.

This link will show you the fear White Christian elite people have of Hinduism swamping their civilisation:

http://www.amazon.com/Hinduism-Invades- ... 0766180131

Here is a good article by Rajiv Malhotra on Hindu-phobia in American academia and press.

http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/p ... phobia.htm

Here is another article:

Exposing Academic Hinduphobia
http://www.boloji.com/bookreviews/124.htm

Even Wikipedia has a page on Hindu Phobia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduphobia

To understand the real effect our spiritual literature has on the Whites, you have to read what the American intellectuals had to say in mid 19th century when first English translations of Gita, Vedas and Upanishads became available in America.
"

Murarilal G,

I am really interested in studying molding of the weak SahajRam mind into plate shitting Allaha Ki Maa. What is in this Shantik Pustika (aka Koran) that makes people disown their own language, culture, ancestry, community feeling or belonging to becoming a slave to distant alien culture, language and race. To make this study little more interesting and money earning I thought we can come up with the script for a nice serial or film. Did you like the name - Durbari Shantic (aka Islamic) gandu Bhi Kabhi Hindu The.

Short DSGBKHT.

Namaskar Murarilal G,

New biz card is not yet ready? How is the reading and searching for Rishis and Mutts around Gomati going on? Please let us know what you found in your search. Have you heard about Rishi Madvya? History is Itihaas and Puran for us. We do not care for the dates and the color of langots or length of the moonch of the people involved. What matters is the subtle essence which drives the personalities and make certain event happen. Swami murdered in cold blood because of alien concept of religion and dividing people so that they can be enslaved is more important fact rather than the year of making the AK47 and the ancestry of the enslaved Paulian or Shantic (aka Islamic) kid. They are just the pawns in the hands of devilish ideologies of Abrahmic religion.

I would listen to you if you start owning your roots and celebrate it by changing your and your kids names to Indic/Sanskrit ones. Otherwise you are yet another Shantic aka Islamic gandu who has nothing better offer to this world, India in particular.

btw i know this guy maxwell, he is a paid g..du (G). There is zammen aur asman ka farak between Riberro and this G.

Murarilal G and Testicula G,

Here are few proposals you Murarilal G could give publicity among your JNU, Doon and other such durbari G crowd.

1. Ban expression of religions and castes in public area.
2. Nationalize saints and festivals of India.
3 Ban on birthdays of aliens such as Mohamed, Jesus and Queen Elizabeth.
4. Money donated and collected by different charities need to be put in one common account and spent on per capita basis for making the body healthy, cultured broad mind and growth in consciousness. This money neeed to be used to create community centers where Yoga, Dhyan, Math Competitions, Science fairs, Athletics, martial arts and other competions and training will be held. This community center will also work as library and internet cafe.
With this money small grass root cooperatives to give helping hand to the poorest of the poor and to bring the community close will be started and helped to grow.

Murarilal G now would you first take the plunge and first own your roots and officially change your name to Murarilal Lakhanpurkar from alien Murad Baig. I will discuss further with you if you do this first. There are lot of testicula G types who have sold their mothers to the highest bidders and they think that they can preach just because they have photoes of Lenin's goaty and Queen Elizabeth's Zanty. Murarilal I think you are different. Soooo I would respond to you if you post your new biz card with new name Murarilal Lakhanpurkar BA (Hon)

Murarilal Lakhanpurkar G and testicular G,


Here is a deal I would discuss with you if you collaborate on film/tele-serial script which does psycho analysis and documents making of durbari superG Allaha Ki Maa from Sahaj Ram Sapru G. You probably are paid to spread sh.t on this ezine.

About riots the truth is this:
"On 23 December 2007, Chrisitians of Brahmanigoan village tried to erect a gate in front of a hindu place of worship. This incident led to clashes between Christian and Hindu communities. Swami Lakshamananda, who visited the site, was attacked by a group of unidentified gunmen. This led to further clashes between Kondh tribals and Christians."

Now concrete proposals. YES to spirituality but big NO to dividing communities and counties using devillish concept of Abrahmic legions. Give us Yogi Yeshu, Rumi and Khalil Gibrans but do not destroy our language, the history of heroes who fought british in 1800s (yes! the tribals who are in news for violence gave a valient fight against British and before that Muslim invaders). The spiritual thought you give us need to be empowering and not enslaving to your language, places of worship, concept of superiority of your race and place of worship such as Mecca-Madina and Palestine. Finally Hindus need not listen about secularism and tolerance from Abrahmic faith people ie you two Gs. First look our own ugly face and nakedness in the mirror before pointing our open fly.

Re: # 132
Lets not mock any extremist but try to see things with reason. The Taliram's of the VHP may be just as bad as the Taliban but the issue is the horror of hatred and violence. Is it a fact as Maxwell Pariera writes that the followers of the revered swami violently attacked Christians on christmas eve long before he and his followers were gunned down. I do not consider revenge as a justification but why was there this pogram against Christian tribals. This is not the tradition of gentle and dharmic Hinduism

I thought some of you might also comment on my interact no 120 challenging the sanctity of all scriptures.

#131 muradbaig: you dont reason with a hindu monkeyman. you just watch him do the monkeydance, and applaud (kind of) when he starts singing "Ban all abrahamic religions". ;-)

Re: # 122

Satya100. Please do not revert to that old trick of trying to shoot the messenger. I gave you a quote from Maxwell Pariera (IG Police)without any comment or qualification. I cannot confirm or deny if he is right or wrong but if you are in Orissa perhaps you can add some factual substance to the subject. My only request... instead of accusations and justifications please try to help us out of this terrible circle of hatred and violence.

No takers for Shantic Durbari G Bhi Kabhi Hindu The serial. We could sell the script to Ekta Kapur and I will make sure that you make millions before I make a dime.

OK! My Time is up! NKG/Ladduji/Pinkuji/Sanataniji
What? I am little disappointed.

"The district committee of the Maoists has 22 members, 70 per cent of whom are Christians. Though close links have existed between the Maoists and the Christians, the radical Left has so far never intervened in religious matters.

The first reports of Christians taking up weapons surfaced in December last year

..

During the backlash, in Brahmanigaon, villagers said they were shot at allegedly by Pano Christians from neighbouring villages.

"Panos are the real culprits. They come from the next village," one of the village woman had said.

During a house-to-house search the police found 20 guns and ammunition were found in Christian homes in Sikaram village, close to Brahmanigaon.

Security analysts believe that repeated provocation by the Sangh Parivar through fiery speeches and rallies demanding that conversions must stop have forced the Christians to retaliate.

( poor dears, they couldnt shout slogans of their own
and just had to retaliate )


In July this year, following clashes over cow slaughter, former MP Nakul Nayak, a Pano Christian, warned action will be taken against Swami Lakhananda if the administration did not take action within 10 days.

Top police sources who have been monitoring the security situation in Kandhmal said this time the Christians were prepared especially in areas where they dominate.

Digi, a Hindu village, is still smouldering. Days after saffron gangs attacked nearby Pano villages, armed men came after midnight, attacked villagers there and set fire to shops and houses. The sarpanch was brutally assaulted, his hands and legs cut by swords.

"They have had fights before they have even threatened us. But for the first time Christians have picked up arms," said one villager.

The church denies this.

"It is a lie. The church never supports violence. We want peace. We want development. We would never condone violence," said the Archbishop.

( religion of love becoming religion of peace )

A number of conservative para-church organisations and new churches are involved in a 'numbers' game and conversion and contribute to undoing the good work done by the Roman Catholics and Protestants in the areas of health, education and development. When there is a backlash, all Christians irrespective of whether they are involved in militant forms of mission or not become fair game for Hindu militants," said Pradip Ninan Thomas.

"

It was not Maoist who did the murder but the EvanJihadists. Its convenient to put blame on Maoists. It's different story that both Maoists and EvanJihadists are coming together.

In this murder 100 or so people were involved. They were disorganized and generally aMaoists are much organized and disciploined. Maoists wuld not come in such large number. The guys who carried the AK47s seemed not commanders of Maoists. Thus it was done by EvanJihadists.

B.RAMAN

Every Indian, who wishes to see India grow in unity, strength and prosperity, will be concerned over the implications of the emergence of a growing Hindu-Christian divide in the Indian civil society.

2. The recent shocking incidents of violence in some parts of the State of Orissa have brought home to us the extent to which the poison inthe relations between the two communities has spread. What one saw in Orissa was nothing less than a mini version of what one saw in Gujarat in 2002.

3. In Gujarat, the massacre of a group of Hindu pilgrims travelling in a railway compartment by a group of Muslim fanatics when the train had stopped at a railway station called Godhra, led to widespread retaliatory attacks on members of the Muslim community in different partsof the State. The brutal violence witnessed during these incidents committed initially by the Muslims and subsequently by the Hindus should be a matter of shame to us as a nation.

4. In Orissa, the brutal murder of a highly-respected leader of the Hindu community belonging to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) by a groupof suspected Christian elements led to widespread attacks by members of the Hindu community----most of them allegedly belonging to the VHP--- on the Christan community. The casualties in Orissa were thankfully small as compared to those in Gujarat in 2002, but the brutality witnessed on both sides----initially by alleged Christian elements and subsequently by alleged VHP members--- was no less disturbing than what one had seen in Gujarat in 2002.

5. The seeds of the Hindu-Muslim divide were initially sown by the British during the pre-1947 colonial days. It resulted in the creation ofPakistan and the subsequent violent incidents between the Hindu and Muslim communities in different parts of India. The jihadi terrorism witnessed in different parts of India since the demolition of the Babri Masjid by a group of Hindus in December,1992,marked a new phase in the continuing divide between some sections of the Hindus and the Muslims. Forunately, this mental divide remained confined to small sections of the two communities. The two communities as a whole have till now not allowed the attempts of these small sections to spread this poison further to succeed. One of the objectives of the repeated jihadi terrorist strikes is to aggravate this divide.

6. The seeds of the Hindu-Christian divide were sown much later---long after India became independent. Even in the 1950s and the 1960s,there were concerns over the objectionable activities of foreign Christian missionaries in Indian territory. These activities perceived as objectionable not only by large sections of the Hindu community, but also by the intelligence and security agencies and by highly-respected leaders such as Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi consisted of attempts to indulge in large -scale conversion of underprivileged Hindus and animist tribals in Central India into Christianity with the help of large, unrestricted flow of funds from the Vatican and from Catholic and Baptist organisations in the US and the role played by foreign missionaries such as the late Rev.Michael Scot in instigating the insurgency in the North-East where many of the inhabitants in Nagaland and Mizoram are Baptists.

7. Just as the flow of money from so-called Muslim charity organisations in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other Muslim countries sought to sustain and aggravate the divide between the Muslims and the Hindus, projected as infidels, and to promote jihadi terrorism in Indian territory, the flow of money from the Vatican and Christian missionary and fundamentalist organisations in the West tended to create a mental divide between the Hindus and the Christians and promote and sustain the insurgency in our North-East.

8. But the leaders of India in the post-independence years sought to see that the concerns over the role of the foreign Christian missionaries and the massive funds at their disposal did not create unwarranted suspicions in the minds of the Hindu community against their Christian fellow-citizens. They realised that if they allowed such suspicions to appear in the relations between the two communities, they would only be playing into the hands of foreign missionary organisations, which wanted to create a mental divide. They refrained from viewing our Christian fellow-citizens as surrogates of the foreign missionary organisations.

9. This conscious attempt not to allow suspicions about foreign Christian missionary organisations create prejudices in our mind about our Christian fellow-citizens started disappearing after the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) led coalition came to power in Delhi in 1998. For thefirst time, there was a greater aggressiveness and less sensitivity in the interactions between the Christian organisations----foreign as well as indigenous-- and Hindu organisations such as the VHP. It would be incorrect to blame the Government of A.B.Vajpayee for this development. No Government policy directly encouraged this development. But the silence of the Government in the face of an aggressive campaign against certain aspects of the activities of Christian organisations and against certain elements of the Christian community by the VHP indirectly led to the emergence of the first signs of a mental divide between the two communities. I was myself a witness to this post-1998 aggressive anti-Christian campaign by the VHP on some occasions.

10. This aggressive campaign by the VHP led to an equally aggressive counter-campaign by some of the indigenous Christian organisations against the VHP and those associated with it, directly or indirectly. Some members of the community of Indian origin in the US---Hindus as well as Christians--- joined this campaign, with the Hindus in the US supporting the VHP and the Christians of Indian origin in the US supporting anti-VHP organisations.

11. From an anti-conversion campaign, which in my view is justified if peaceful and in accordance with law, it took on additional dimensions of a disturbing nature. One such dimension was anti-Vatican. Sonia Gandhi, who before 1998 was projected as of Italian origin and hence unsuitable to be the Prime Minister of India, was post-1998 sought to be projected as a Roman Catholic with suspected ties to the Vatican.She was projected as the source of the greater aggressiveness exhibited by the Christian organisations. There was a discernible attempt to merge the anti-Christian and the anti-Sonia campaigns.

12. This aggression and counter-aggression, rhetoric and counter-rhetoric totally lacking in a sense of balance between the VHP on the one side and some Christian organisations on the other threaten to create fresh pockets of social and religious disharmony in the already fragile Indian society. If India is to take its place as an important power in the world and as the equal, if not the better, of China, it is important for all right-thinking people----whatever be their religion or language or political background--- to come together to strongly oppose these new divisive trends in our society and nation.

13. The Hindus constitute the preponderant majority of this nation with 80 per cent of the population. India is their homeland and they have every right to protect their interests and to safeguard the essentially Hindu nature of this country. They have a right to have organisations such as the VHP to help them in doing so. At the same time, they have an important responsibility to carry out their activities in a peaceful manner in such a way as not to add to the divisions in our society. We have to find ways of making the interests of different religious groups and communities compatible with each other and not antagonistic to each other.

14. The way the VHP and the Christian organisations determined to oppose it are carrying on their activities is threatening to create more pockets of mutual antagonism than pockets of unity and harmony. This is not good for India.(3-9-08)

"Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati , who has been spearheading the anti-conversion movement in Kandhamal district in Orissa, was killed with four other inmates of Jaleshpata Ashram, where Swami Laxmanananda was staying. Swami Laxmanananda was 80.
The suspected assailants equipped with grenades and guns attacked the Ashram at 9 PM and fired shots lobbed grenades indiscriminately. The limited police staff at the Ashram could not counter them. According to eye-witness sources, over 100 people attacked the Ashram. Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati has been working against alleged forcible conversion by Christian missionaries and cow-slaughter. He had survived a murderous attempt on his life in December 2007. His disciples were also attacked by the Christian goons in the past.
Kandhamal district had seen a communal flare up several times in the past. Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati was always on hit list of anti-social elements and Maoists who were accused of triggering the communal riots in Kandhamal sometimes ago. Ironically, Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati had received a threatening letter 24 hours before his death. The letter threatened to eliminate him if he did not stop working against Christian missionaries.
If at all anyone has seen the murdered photo of Swamiji cannot belive how brutal it was it has een chopped in pieces, private parts of Mataji is chopped....(hope no more explanation is required)
so its understood who must be the killer and should be ready to face..
This is the position of a Hindu in a place so called Hindustan really pitty"

"Tehelka

Dr Krishan Kumar, the young District Magistrate of Kandhamal, thinks it’s actually about jobs, land, and only then religion. Kumar has studied medicine (hence the Dr prefix), and was given overnight charge of Kandhamal when the Hindu militants began attacking the Christians.

Kumar works out of a suite in the Circuit House at Phulbani, the district headquarters of Kandhamal. He has gone two days without sleep during the crisis. After Saraswati’s murder, he was told of the killing of a pastor in Raikia, an area in Kandhamal where the Christians outnumber the Hindus. He drove with a full company of the Rapid Action Force and a contingent of the Orissa State Disaster Management Agency. “It took me 11 hours for a journey that normally takes two hours. There were so many trees cut and laid across the road,� Kumar says.

He explains why he thinks jobs are the first cause of war in Kandhamal. He says his administration has 1,000 cases of fake caste certificates to investigate. Apparently, many non-tribals, which in Kandhamal usually mean the dalits, have submitted fake certificates showing them as members of the Kandha tribe.

The certificates enable government employment in the reserved quota. This is possible because the law enables job reservation for the Scheduled Tribes (ST) even though they have converted to Christianity, while the Scheduled Castes (SC) are deprived of this quota if they convert to Christianity or another religion. This is a principal reason why the Dalit Christians are seeking reservations as well.

Government jobs are precious in Kandhamal, since there are barely any private outlets offering employment. So, the STs seethe with resentment against the SCs over jobs. Often, they fight. Since the STs are Hindus and the SCs form the bulk of the Christians, the battles can easily take a religious turn.

Then, there is land. “The tribals have been around forever. They are the original dwellers here. They never had to prove that they owned the land. I mean, why should they? In the early 1900s, the tribal land opened up. Pattas, a certificate indicating ownership of land, began to be given out. The tribes have a complex social structure. Within themselves, they had given land to neighbours for various reasons. When they had to prove ownership of land, they couldn’t. Others came in and the tribals couldn’t integrate with the market economy,� says Kumar. Loss of land could, therefore, be a cause for the fighting between the STs, who are Hindus, and the SCs, who are Christian.





A new dimension emerged in November 2007 when the Orissa Government said both the dalits and the tribals were part of one family, the Kui Samaj. Kui is the dialect spoken in Kandhamal, and the government intended to bring the dalits and the tribals on a common platform using language as glue. More importantly, it intended to give dalits job reservation and other social advantages that the tribes were given, even if they had converted to Christianity. The tribals objected strongly.

Into this mix enters religion. “Nobody fights over spirituality,� says Kumar. The war is over theology and the power that comes with organised religion.

--

Goverdhan and his family converted to Christianity. They were given a Bible, and told that Jesus is the only God who gave his life for others. After six months, they were baptised. Narmada says Goverdhan was paid Rs 800 the first month, and Rs 2,000 for six months afterward. Stories like those of Goverdhan and Narmada have helped the Church to spread.

"

Conversion Conundrum

Lookback: Udayan Namboodiri

For the second time in a year, Christian evangelists and Hindu zealots have reduced civil society in Orissa to its knees. The refusal to admit to the deeper problem is emerging as the root cause

A lot of issues are mixed up with the Khandamal carnage. Just describing it in terms of "Hindu communalism" and hoping that liberal castigation would send the damned Hindutva scurrying for over in shame or fear or both won't ensure that this is the last time Christians are victimised in Orissa or Gujarat or any other place in India.

Saturday Special, which upholds journalism of balanced reflection, recognises the possibility of the truth hurting both parties. Though we invited Father Dominic Emmanuel, the spokesman of the Catholic Church in India (Main Story) and Hindutva ideologue Praful Goradia to articulate their respective positions (The Other View), it must be conceded that the true story lies far beyond their mutually exclusive perceptions.

At the outset, it must be admitted that it is extremely difficult for any Indian, including most people who find themselves on the anti-Christian side, to take a hostile view of Christianity and "conversions". A Lal Krishna Advani, or an Arun Jaitley, or even a BP Singhal and Goradia himself, cannot deny the role played by the educational apostolate of the Church in moulding their minds. Swami Vivekananda admitted to constructing the organisation of the Ramakrishna Mission on St. Ignatius Loyola's model. A lot of BJP leaders are actively working with frontal organisations of the Church to spread education, immunisation and environment awareness.

Similarly, the Church finds it impossible to turn away from the fact that Hindutva holds no grudge against any Christian precept and principle. Some rabid publications notwithstanding, the RSS and its fronts have acknowledged the Church's social apolstolate. On occasions, Church leaders have admitted that Hindutva is eminently more tolerant -- even "secular" as the head of the Syrio-Malabar Church of Kerala said earlier this year -- than Communism.

Yet, what do we see since the beginning of the latest episode of the ongoing "Hindu-Christian conflict" of Orissa? We have newspaper columns betraying their writers' supreme ignorance and professional dishonesty. For, not only do they regurgitate stuff long discarded by the Sangh Parivar itself, they actually struggle to manufacture new passions in the ordinary Hindu. Then, driving past the Gol Dakkhana circle in New Delhi, we saw this week banners with messages like "Stop Killing Christians". These go a long way in confirming stereotypes about Christian missionaries being in cahoots with evil foreigners.

One side refuses to answer how come, if "conversion" was indeed such a flourishing practice, the proportion of Christians to the Indian billion is actually dropping? Demographic change has happened in four districts of West Bengal and will soon overwhelm the rest of that state thanks to the Election Commission's delimitation policy which insists on giving political power to Bangladeshi infiltrators. We are waiting for the day when a Sangh Parivar outfit would emerge to take on the might of the Communist-Jihadi combine in Changrabandha and Raigunj. But that's another matter.

On the other hand, you have the All India Christian Council, whose web site makes even casual onlookers wonder as to how much the rhetorical flourish on the home page about "discrimination" against Dalits have to do with making Christians good Christians. Casteism is the bane of Hindu society, of which Hindus themselves are aware. It is good to know that the scepter of caste does not hang over Indian Christianity, but why this strange interest in the well being of "untouchables"? When juxtaposed with the literature churned out by the underground presses of foreign-funded missionary outposts in Orissa, Chhatisgarh, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat, does it or does it not raise some justified posers over intent?

Exacerbating the tenuous link between sanity and Khandamal is the Orissa government. It admits that Swami Lakshmananand had been complaining of threats to his life from his known enemies. Yet, not only did it fail to give protection, but also went to the ludicrous extent of claiming that it was a Maoist job. Since when do the Maoists give repeated threats? Even if it were the Maoists, why wasn't the state police sensitive to the entreaties of an old man who represented greater threat to society when dead than alive?

This leads us straight back to the original question: are conversions really going on? And, if so, why does Orissa hesitate to use its Law against the merchants of religion? The Church would not give an honest answer, while its opponents go to any extent to whip of ill-will over numbers not reflected in official censuses. Problem is, the Catholic Church, which assumes leadership over all Christians in India, is quite anti-conversion itself. Yet, why does it suffer in silence when their priests and nuns, who, incidentally, are the most visible faces of Christianity, get killed and raped?

Much of the confusion can be resolved if the Catholics disassociate themselves from the issue and allow the real evangelicals to step forward. This is a demand of ordinary Christians and Hindus, all of who recognise the wider conspiracy hatched by those who profit from the festering sores. It must be recalled here that evangelical activities were discouraged even under British rule. Mahatma Gandhi had written extensively against the importation to India of the Semitic tradition that promotes competition among Faiths. Unless everbody, including the left-lib zealots, whose role in the Khandamal episode has been enigmatically mischievous, own up to the truth, a lot more bloodletting may be unavoidable.

"SC-ST tussle: the sinister subtext to Kandhamal communal divide

The Panos, who lost SC status on conversion, want ST tag; this is being opposed by the Kandhs

Phulbani: On the face of it, the communal unrest in Orissa’s Kandhamal district was triggered by the 23 August murder of a man considered to be a saint by Hindus who then went on the rampage in the area, torching and looting Christian homes and prayer houses.
The swami, also a senior functionary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), had been opposing, for more than 40 years, the proselytizing activities of Christian missionaries. So, when he was killed by unknown assailants, the suspicion fell on the Christians.
But, if people familiar with the demographics of the district are to be believed, there is a far more sinister subtext to the rioting.

“It’s the politics of reservation and the benefits that come from being a member of the scheduled castes (SC) and scheduled tribes (ST) that have played their role in these riots,� said a past principal of the Phulbani Girls’ College who didn’t want to be named. “The SC-ST divide has further fanned the communal fires.�
The Kandh tribals, after whom the district is named, are an ST community. “They are the original inhabitants of the area and were animists and even practised human sacrifice till the British came and put a stop to it,� said the academic. According to him, though the STs were animists, they had a cultural affinity with the Hindus. “Lord Jagannath, revered by Oriyas, is derived from the tribal Neelmadhab cult,� he said, adding, “Similarly, the goddess Sambaleshwari, patronized by the erstwhile king of Sambalpur, has tribal origins.�
On the other hand, the Christians of the district are converts from the Pano scheduled caste. The Panos, according to the academic, were originally Hindus who, centuries ago, came from outside the district and were also animists. “But, under British influence, they converted to Christianity in large numbers.�
So, over the years, the Kandhs embraced Hinduism in large numbers, while the Panos, who make up about a fifth of the district’s population, have turned Christians. “Tensions have always prevailed between the two with the Kandhs looking down on the Panos and very little social relations between the two,� said a senior state civil service officer who also didn’t want to be named.
However, in line with a government rule, those Panos who embraced Christianity lost their SC status and all the advantages that came with it. “For the past few years, however, the Panos are lobbying that they be given ST status,� said the same officer, adding, “Naturally, this was vehemently opposed by the Kandhs, who felt it was an encroachment on their turf.�
The genesis of the rift lies in a decision to expand the scheduled tribes list in the early 1990s to include the Kui and Kuvi communities in the ST category. “Many Panos speak the Kui language and hence demanded ST status for them as well,� said the academic. “They even formed an organization called the Kuijana Kalyana Sangha in Bhubaneswar but its registration was cancelled after the riots last December,� he said.
According to many Kandh and Hindu leaders, the demand for ST status is being made by the Panos so that they can benefit both from reservations as well as the sops doled out by the Church.
“They want reservation in seats in educational institutions as well as government jobs and also want to benefit from the money from the Church�, said Priyanath Sharma, an office bearer of the VHP. “Let them choose one, they can’t have both.�
Trust between the two communities, which was always low, is at its lowest. “The Panos would take away our land fraudulently or misrepresent themselves as Dalit Hindus even after becoming Christians to retain their SC status,� said a Kandh priest, who refused to identify himself. “Even now, they want reservation for Dalit Christians or ST status,� he said, adding, “Where will their greed end?�
Matters were made worse when the delimitation of assembly constituencies meant Kandhamal moved from a seat reserved for SCs to STs. “They sensed their power slipping away and could have fomented trouble,� said the academic.
Another ominous note is the shadow of the Maoists. “Religion and an SC-ST tussle are ideal situations for ultra-Leftists to take advantage of,� said the state bureaucrat, adding, “God help this place if they too get mixed up in all this.�
"

Murarilal Lakhanpurkar G,

Who should check whose money speaks from the mouth of Parera. There is big difference between Ribero and this Parera character.

But more important is what you personally going to do? Are you ready for complete ban on alien Abrahmic legions in India? Just as China was put into stupor by selling ganja, not just India but the world is being destroyed by this Abrahmic imperialistic and enslaving legions. Give us Yogi Yeshu and core spirituality, if any, but not the enslavement to distant popes and Mecca-Madina.

I am advocating that you own your local-ness of Lakhanpur and not Kotha culture of Lucknow. Since you like history so much instead of learning about distant Greek and Persian go and find out if there were rishis and Mutts on the banks of Gomati who were expert in Math, Ecology and Chemistry and bring their knowledge for common good of all and to solve the todays problems.
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or Christ's sake

I am writing this from Orissa which, quite uncharacteristically, dominated national news space during the last week of August for altogether wrong reasons. Bhubaneswar, the State's neatly planned post-Independence Capital, is tranquil enough but interior districts are still simmering from the fallout of the heinous assassination of the venerated monk Swami Laxmanananda, 80-year-old messiah of the poor and downtrodden in one of Orissa's remotest and least developed districts -- Kandhmal.

To my surprise, I found passions running high even in the Capital particularly over what people allege is the biased and undeservingly negative publicity the State received in the aftermath of the murder and the violence that predictably followed. It is a trying time for the State's usually unflappable Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik who appears set to be elected for a third straight term in office when Assembly polls happen next year. The fallout has also been a test for his coalition partner BJP, whose Hindu constituency is outraged by the killing of the Swami.

Fortunately, the BJD-BJP alliance is holding firm despite hotheads periodically seeking to stir up trouble. The violence, which ominously affected villages rather than cities -- unlike the pattern of other communal disturbances -- is also simmering down. But the questions it has raised dramatically all over again need to be addressed if recurrence is to be contained in the future.

What has agitated average middle class people in Orissa is the manner in which a one-sided perspective is being peddled as fact in the national media, to the courts and even among school children. There is consternation over the one-day strike called by Christian organisations that shut down many schools and colleges across the country. "The Courts are quick to denounce strikes and bandhs everywhere. Political parties are even fined for calling a bandh. Why hasn't anybody condemned the enforced strike in Christian educational institutions?" asked an angry teacher.

Apparently, some school authorities even distributed a circular among students explaining why the bandh had been called. The letter complained in a high-pitched tone about the attacks on churches, priests, orphanages and ordinary Christian villagers by rampaging mobs. The circular, admittedly also regretted the murder of the octogenarian Swami, but only in a proforma fashion. The purpose of the explanatory letter was not really to explain but to condition young, impressionable minds into a particular line of thinking.

A parent told me about the following exchange with his school-going daughter: "Why is your school closed tomorrow?" he had asked. Pat came the reply, "Because Hindus are killing innocent Christians in Orissa." When he persisted and queried why Hindus are supposedly doing that, his daughter looked nonplussed and confessed she had no idea, but after some thought added, "They did that to Muslims in Gujarat also, No?" The brainwashing of children, especially in urban India, has acquired a new dimension.

Sometimes I get the feeling that a diabolical section of proselytising missionaries are determined to milk the post-Laxmananand violence to the hilt to further their cause. Significantly, as even diehard secular TV channels have revealed, the violence in Orissa, unlike post-Godhra Gujarat, was hardly one-sided. Christian-dominated villages persecuted Hindus as much as vice versa and, in any case the disturbances were confined to just two districts. And, by the way, no nun was burnt to death; it was a Hindu woman who was unfortunately trapped in a hut set on fire by vandals. No wonder large numbers of Hindus, especially women, converged on a relief camp for Christians in Tiklabari in Kandhmal last Wednesday, demanding that either everybody get official relief or the Christians-only camp be shut. They told visiting politicians and the media that they too had suffered in the violence. Besides, the police was strictly enforcing curfew preventing them from going to work to earn a livelihood. "Why are Christians getting all the attention while we are starving?" the charged crowds demanded to know. I am referring to this incident only to underline that the issue is not as simple as the counsel for Christian organisations made it out in the Supreme Court last Thursday.

It is a measure of the efficacy of the Christian network that within hours of the disturbances happening, the Pope issued a strong denunciation of the "persecution" of Christians in India. Worse, the Italian Foreign Office had the temerity to summon India's Ambassador in Rome to admonish him and demand an immediate end to the harassment of Christians in this country. Incidentally, both these actions have contributed to the anger of people in Orissa.

I was repeatedly asked why New Delhi had not issued a strong statement telling Rome and the Holy Seer that Orissa is India's internal affair and they should keep their mouths firmly shut. "Each time there are some problems between Hindus and Muslims, Pakistan too makes gratuitous noises about Muslims in India. But Delhi tells them to stay away from our internal matters. Why does the Government lack the guts to do the same with Italy?" asked an irate journalist, hinting that the reason for being deferential towards Italians, resident or non-resident, would not be very far to seek.

In fairness, though, the venerable Pope, as spiritual head of the Roman Catholic world, has a right to express concern if his co-religionists face insecurity in any part of the world. But the pontiff would have done well to appreciate the gravity of the situation and also recognised the root cause of the friction. There would be no trouble between Hindus and Christians, who are mostly a peaceful community living in harmony with Hindus for centuries, but for the aggressive campaign to "harvest souls", meaning, convert poor Hindus. It is the influx of massive funds, mainly from Europe, to further a renewed evangelical offensive in India that is the cause of mounting tensions between Hindus and Christians in many parts of India.

An Orissa legislator (not BJP) narrated some instances of glitzy audio-visual campaigns by Christian missionaries in the State's interiors. Although the State Government was forced to ban the entry of foreign evangelists following protests some years ago, there's no stopping the funds. Promises of good education, jobs and even careers abroad are freely made, tempting many impoverished villagers.

Dispensing with the usual paraphernalia of baptism, some priests apparently preside over mass conversions whereby those willing to change their religion need only to take a dip in the village pond to expiate their past sins. As many independent sociologists have pointed out, new converts in villages become particularly aggressive towards their erstwhile community and the resulting social cleavage eventually spills over into violence. This is probably the strongest argument for enacting watertight anti-conversion legislation.

The Government is required to preserve and promote social harmony, rebuffing the Church's ambition to "harvest souls". In the final analysis, however, Hindu society too is to blame for the steady expansion of Christian missionary activity. Why are their so few Swami Laxmananands among us? Why don't Hindu organisations work more effectively in backward and tribal-dominated areas? That is the only way to deny non-Indic religions a foothold in sensitive parts of the country and thereby preserving social harmony.

Re: # 113

Satya100

How do you justify the attached excerpt from an article by Maxwell Pareira former DIG Delhi.

On Christmas Eve 2007, while Christians in Orissa were preparing to celebrate the birth of Jesus, gangs of fanatical elements in Kandhamal District, in a series of pre-planned and well organised assaults, attacked churches and Christian institutions, damaging them, desecrating statues and Bibles, and even burning houses in Christian bastis.

The atrocities continued for a month, and left 107 churches destroyed in arson, at least six people dead and thousands homeless. Though instances of violence were spread across the State, the bulk of it was concentrated in Kandhamal District. The district has a population of 6 lakh people of whom almost 2 lakhs are Christians. Practically all tribal, very poor and exploited.

By February although the brutality seemingly subsided, the persecution never stopped. Fanatical elements kept up pressure on Christians to renounce their faith and convert to Hinduism. Christians were taunted at work, boycotted socially, women were harassed, children caught and shaved bald.

In the forefront of the movement to force Christians to abandon Christianity was Lakshmananda Saraswati, a Vice President of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP). Though a sadhu, he was known to be deeply involved in politics. On the night of August 23rd, a band of 20 to 30 masked men, armed with sophisticated weapons, including AK-47 rifles, attacked Lakshmananda Saraswati’s ashram and shot him and four of his associates dead. The operation was typical of the Naxalites - with the People’s Liberation Guerrilla Army, a Maoist Communist outfit, even claiming credit for the killings – as Lakshmananda Saraswati they said, had been mixing politics and religion too much for too long.


So who started the killings?? And was it a dharmic act that Hindus could approve of???

Re: # 119

I have no problem with any scripture revealed or non revealed. They all contain words of great wisdom relevant for their times but I do not consider any of them more sacred than the words of many great secular philosophers.

It was the professional priests of all faiths who made the scriptures sacred to become powerful weapons in their hands used to subjugate the common people with threats of great otherworldly pain if they disobeyed. The alliance between priests and rulers made the rulers powerful while the grateful rulers rewarded the priests with wonderful churches, mosques and temples plus many material benefits

". And much later there were several revisions of the Bhagavat Gita. In any case Hinduism was not known as a religion till 1826 when Ram Mohun Roy applied the label Hindu to unite a wide variety of varied beliefs, myths, rituals and customs that the Brahmins managed."

Actually murad, just because the term "hinduism" was coined late does not imply that the Dharmic system of Aryavrta did not exist. Muarad, you need to read more because you understanding of hindu dharma and its texts is poor.

Also, Vedas are considered by us a revealed and NOT wrritten. Vedas were apaurushya i.e. not of human origin. Just because you claim it so and non-hindus say it so does not turn revealed nature of Vedas into human origin.

Vedas were transmitted through shruata tadtion - i.e. it is learnt by hearing and not reading. Vedas are mainly oral and that is why it has remained the same over thousands of years.

just because muslims love to deride others and claiming revealed status of their own humanly compiled Quan does not nullify the revealed nature of Vedas.

Re: # 114

Ah....all this was a product of a kashmiri Brahmin........hmm ....... no wonder we were all fooled.....

Kaale Khan,

It seems that Murad's rejection of your wahabi supremacist thought has rubbed your poor Islamist ego.....

Murad is a Shia and he has nothing to do with your Jehadic nonsense.....but he does believe in the Mandi taking care of idolators like me in future........so just relax...... he has no use for your jehad.

tesst

NKG, Ladduji, Pinkuji and Sanataniji

Please help in writing the script for the real movie on how and why recent converts become the most fanatic folks. Why they cause more harm to their native land, language and culture. Why do they were their faith on their sleeves.

Murarilal G,

I would like to take some real skill after spending about half an hour on this website on daily basis. I proposed to other folks to collaborate on writing a script for the movie depicting the progress from Sahaj Ram to Allha Ki Maa. Since you are good historian you can critique the script for its authenticity. You might be a good hand in digging some dirt out. But we will write the script of the movie to hold the mirror in front of our Shantic aka Islamic brothers. In all those yearly Affirmative action (AAA) meetings in corporate America first we learned was to beware of the folks who claim that they are progressive non practicing religious/supremacist folks. These so called intellectuals are the biggest bigots and racists. You can humanize five time Namazi but not these folks. I hope you are not one of these G intellectuals.

Since you are very good BA (Hon) how will you write the first scene depicting crook Sahaj Ram. Historical fact is:

"Iqbal's grandfather Shaikh Rafiq, was a Kashmiri Pandit named Sahaj Ram Sapru before his conversion to Islam and was a revenue collector. According to Dr R.K. Parimu, the author of “History of Muslim Rule in Kashmir" and Ram Nath Kak's book Autumn Leaves, Shaikh Rafiq had embezzeled state funds, and when his guilt was established, the Afghan governor, Azim Khan, gave him the choice of death or conversion to Islam. Sahaj Ram Sapru chose life, and assuming new names, he and his family moved to Sialkot in the Panjab."

My time is up!

Murarilal Lakhanpurkar G,

"But these are gross simplifications that I offer simply because you asked. "

What I asked was:

Why Dont you mention cold blooded murder of unarmed 85 year old swami and 70+ old swamini by Paulian/Popian/Christian, which was the cause of unrest in Orissa.

What do you mean by gentle? When last time Dharmic Prithwiraj was gentle, hot iron rods were put in his eyes, his children became male slaves/prostitutes and his wife became a randi.

You claim that you are so progressive non-practicing Shantic ie Islamic gentle-man. Would you please change your name to show where you come from and celebrate the local culture, history and pride to Murarilal Lakhanpurkar

But ask your self what will you do find the real culprit. The real culprit is your audience in the west who fund the arms such as AK47s which were used to murder the Swami and four others. You G never condemns these murders. Since you do not and high light the Hindu reaction so that more funds are sent to Christians from west to convert to divide and rule, your hands are red with Swami and other Hindu blood.

Murad bhai, thanks for returning.

Before we conclude what you believe, please confirm that we understand you right. You believe that -

1. The Quran, as it exists today, is (just like any other book) written by men (or women) dead long ago.

2. It does not deserve the sanctity people attach to it.

You have not told us what could be specifically wrong with the Quran's contents or with Islam's principles or practices, but for now, it will be good hear you either confirm or correct the above impression.

My objective is to be able to openly make the argument you make to the general Muslim public, so a proper and equally respectful dialogue can take place between Muslims and Hindus - a goal that you as a person of interfaith interests would naturally share.

Thank you.

Sometime after Godhra and Gujarat riots, I read in TOI a heart wrenching 'middle' written by one lady with Surname 'Beg' about her young son's painful experiences in school and otherwise. I wonder if they belong to Mr. Murad Ali Beg's family.
As an individual or as a family, Mr. Beg must be having a very egalitarian views on all matters pertaining to Religion. BUT when one writes an Article as a scholar for publishing in cyber space or otherwise then ONE SHOULD BE EXTREMELY DISPASSIONATE and SHOULD DETACH ONESELF FROM ONES OWN BEING TO HAVE AN IMPARTIAL UNBIASED OPINION. Some how, Mr. Baig's writings leave a feeling that this part is not being taken care of and that is why there comes the staements like Islamic world did wrong because of Afghans etc and Hindu world because of it being Hinduism.

And I do sincerely believe that Mr. Baig IS A WONDERFUL human being.
Regards

Re: # 102

Satya100 has a trick question that requires a writer to very carefully tiptoe through a minefield of religious sensitivities. But why should I only look for two bad things about Islam and two good things about Hinduism? Why not good and bad things about both?

But the first issue is to see how good and bad is defined in `Religion’ itself. My definition is a tradition of scriptures, customs and rituals that professional priests like the Maulvis and Brahmin priests manage and control. It is the scriptures that most define all religions and what they define as right and wrong so the innate sanctity of scriptures has to be our first concern.

History clearly shows that none of the scriptures of ANY religion were the words of God or even the exact words of the prophets or founders. The sanctity of the four gospels of Christianity (out of 102) is evident from the fact that they were only declared authentic by bishop Iranious in 185 AD or 153 years after the crucifixion. Good and bad were defined in the Jewish 10 Commandments (originally 612) that the priests reduced over time. This and other evidence clearly shows that the Testaments were Man’s creations and do not deserve the sanctity that people attach to them.

There is a similar story with the Quran that was written by Zaid Ibn Thabit and the definitive Madina version was released by Khalif Othman 33 years after the death of the Prophet. 200 years later came the traditions of the Hadis mainly compiled by Al Bukhari. There were several other revisionists over the years. So these too were neither the words of God, Gabriel or Muhammad but the pious efforts of human writers.

Hinduism is no different because there was a long transit with many revisions from the Rigveda to the other Vedas, Brahmanas, Ariyankas, Upanishads, etc. And much later there were several revisions of the Bhagavat Gita. In any case Hinduism was not known as a religion till 1826 when Ram Mohun Roy applied the label Hindu to unite a wide variety of varied beliefs, myths, rituals and customs that the Brahmins managed.

It was these clearly `man made scriptures’ and interpretations based on the scriptures that professional priests used or misused to define what they wanted people to consider good and bad. Heresy and blasphemy were based on these scriptures and used to terrorise all who tried to stray from the paths they had defined. For these reasons I do not think that any scripture deserves to be considered sacred.

The good that I see in Islam is that it was firstly the most unqualified adoration of the cosmic creator up to this time and that secondly it had such a clear code of moral and social rules that Muslim traders were the only ones that people could absolutely trustin midaeval times. This was more important for the spread of Islam than Muslim conquests. The bad was that Islam was a product of violent times where the pre Islamic Arab traditions of revenge and violence were condoned. But just see the evolution of the word Jihad. It is hardly mentioned in the Quran but occurs 199 times in the Hadis. Also bad was that many rules regarding food and behavior that were relevant in the 6th century were not valid in later times.

The beauty of Hindu philosophy (not Hinduism that means many different things) was that it was such an `inclusive’ philosophy that promoted the Karmic idea that there was a joyous divine speak in every mortal. It became ugly when some practitioners tried to make Hinduism rigid, angry and virtually Jehadi.

But these are gross simplifications that I offer simply because you asked.

Ok Where was I, hann

Instead of getting into Us Vs them, whole purpose of this project is to capture historical progress of this disease which associates human to their mind and body. The purpose is to save the kids from destruction because of hate. Our literary work needs to be judged on

1. Raising of human consciousness
2. Truthfulness
3 Healthy tastiness.

There is selfish interest of this gawar yours truly turning into literary type like you guys with your help.

So now would you please write the first scene where this weak mind Sahaj Ram enjoying his illgotten wealth with hukka panni. Pinkuji yuu are so good in Shero Sahyari so you could write about the gazals he listening with hukka pani with a Kashmiri Saki.

I can devote only 15-30 min for this project.

Pinkuji, Ladduji & Sanatani,

You guys are very literary types. I was going to stop visiting this site but then a good idea hit upon me. I was thinking if we can create a script of a movie which will throw light on historical progress of converts and their attitude of hating every thing local. I hope you guys understand. The way will do it is utmost love and with witness attitude.

for example:

"Iqbal's grandfather Shaikh Rafiq, was a Kashmiri Pandit named Sahaj Ram Sapru before his conversion to Islam and was a revenue collector. According to Dr R.K. Parimu, the author of “History of Muslim Rule in Kashmir" and Ram Nath Kak's book Autumn Leaves, Shaikh Rafiq had embezzeled state funds, and when his guilt was established, the Afghan governor, Azim Khan, gave him the choice of death or conversion to Islam. Sahaj Ram Sapru chose life, and assuming new names, he and his family moved to Sialkot in the Panjab."

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Instead

Happy Ganesh Chatturthi! We develop his Sakshi/Witness mentality and not get attached to mind, present and past minds and its thoughts/ideaologies and physical body. But do develop your six pack abs.

Stormy,

Used first time bear arm at age 12 for hunt of wild-bore. Recently even my teen kids got into this even though started as vegetarian. Personally I feel they should make a point of eating non-veg when they hunt and fish themselves. Let the Jeeva play/fight with you. When you eat later every cell of yours will thank that Jeeva for creating the nourishing brawn and bones.

Hamare BapJadone ehi kya ie biz of arms and farms, though they were small Rajas. Moreover, all our gods and goddesses bear arms besides vedas.

I would rather say there should have been compulsory draft to discipline, develop community feeling and patriotism in India. A draft of three armed services one year of community service of Gandhi/Savarkar type to remove castecism, corruption, nepotism, bringing Shantic and Paulian folks into main stream so that they will revere the local culture, language and history, and abolishing divisive relegion-ous ideology.

satya100,

please don't bear arms. You may end up shooting yourselves :(
with much respect,
thinking storm

Bear arm and kill to defend oneself, ones way of life and organizing as qa group is necessary to defend Dharma/Dhamma/Jaina. Nonviolence means also stop if necessary with physical harm violence of others. Dharma seeks balance which was some what lost in past few hundred years.

Murarilal G,

You claim that you are so progressive non-practicing Shantic ie Islamic gentle-man. Would you please change your name to show where you come from and celebrate the local culture, history and pride to

Murarilal Lakhanpurkar.


Someone here said you are married to a Hindu lady. Then would you please share names of your kids. Do they carry Indic names?

You are a hypocrite G unless you change your and your kids names to Sanskrit based names as most of the Indian do. If you do not like Sanskrit then pl take names such as Dhondya or Pandya.

Pinkuji/Ladduji/Sanatani/NKG I am done with G, you please take over.

Murarilal Lakhanpurkar G,

"I had raised the question of how the gentle and inclusive concepts of evolving Hinduism had become equally fanatic and exclusive."

Tum Sudhroge Nahi. Tum Durbari G-giri chodoge Nahin. Why Dont you mention cold blooded murder of unarmed 85 year old swami and 70+ old swamini by Paulian/Popian/Christian, which was the cause of unrest in Orissa. Tum meaningless English bahot fekta Hain. What do you mean by inclusive? What do you mean by gentle? When last time Dharmic Prithwiraj was gentle, hot iron rods were put in his eyes, his children became male slaves/prostitutes and his wife became a randi.

That gentleness is Adharmic. It was the wrong influence of Boudha and Jaina on Hinduism. India which was a leading country because of its ideas, maths, science and technology became in 1K years a popper with less than 1% world GDP. Please do not underestimate your audience. Even Ukrainan and Russian kids are knowing the fact what happened to India, Iran and central Asia after Islam and Christianity spread.

In western China Xinjiang there is a city called Kashi, even Phillipines was a Hindu/Dharmic country. Today dharma of purified form is Hinduism and it is restricted to 1/10th of what it used to be in terms of area and probably in population as well. Hindu Dharma is successfully thwarting devilish forces of Abrahmic religions such as Islam and Christianity.

"Because Im sure you will agree that the extremism of the Bajrang Dal or VHP as evident in the slaughter of Christians in Orissa today are a very far cry from the idea of Dharma."

Innocents should not be hurt. But ask your self what will you do find the real culprit. The real culprit is your audience in the west who fund the arms such as AK47s which were used to murder the Swami and four others. You G never condemns these murders. Since you do not and high light the Hindu reaction so that more funds are sent to Christians from west to convert to divide and rule, your hands are red with Swami and other Hindu blood.

Re: # 96

The Sufis were an old pre Islamic Persian sect that only believed in a supreme cosmic creator and shunned all posessions. They much later were identified with Islam. The orthodox Muslims considered them as heretics.

Satya100, Pinku and others are correct about the `Abrahamic' context of `Religion' on which I have written in Chowk two months ago (One God religions of Revelation)and I agree that it was their rigid absolutism regarding their so called scriptures that led to so much anger and hatred to all other beliefs. I had raised the question of how the gentle and inclusive concepts of evolving Hinduism had become equally fanatic and exclusive. Because Im sure you will agree that the extremism of the Bajrang Dal or VHP as evident in the slaughter of Christians in Orissa today are a very far cry from the idea of Dharma.

Murad

Dharma is very different from Abrahmic concept called religion. Religions are basically armed legions to enslave and subjugate "other" people. They grab other people's land, rape women and plunder their wealth.

Dharma starts when the mind is dropped. Book is mind creation. Abrahmic religions including Marxism put Burkha of the book over the real ugly above mentioned real body of re-legions. Dharma is spontaneous... happens in pure awareness of Samadhi.

I guess this spontaneity in the DNA of Dharmic people is making them adapt to the new situation better and also be creative to mold the perceived reality. This is what is going to make sure that Dharma will lead in the form of growth in coutries such as India, China, Japan, Vietnam & Korea, and as life style of Yoga & Meditation in the west.
End of Religion is visible. Thank Allaha, Abrahma or whatever world is finally being cured of Abrahmatis.

Murad
I am with you too.
“Religion� is belief in a dogmatic system of Church and as such it divides humanity in niches and its operatives the Clergy are Elitist. Exact opposite to brotherhood of mankind! That is why, for example the sisters are kept in the Hood in most of the religions.
A paradigm shift is required in the concept of 'righteous act' to extract it from the clutches of the Generic Church (the mother-church) and into the wider field of common good for mankind.
But then if that were to happen, millions of priests and the religious brigade will be out of job and unemployed.
Perish the thought for economy stability!
Rashid

This is the Nehruvian line. All religions are equally bad. Scum, murderous, doctorines like Islam, Judaism, Marxism, Christianity etc. are not religions they are unlike Santan Dharam political philosophies.

Sanatani

#85 Posted by Eklavya,

Thanks a million. I am assuming you would not be too busy.

It appears Murad Bhai is indeed too busy setting up Bio-Energy Plants to answer your two questions, though has plenty of time on hands to write a whole series of wordy nonsense.

#92 Posted by muradbaig on
Murad,
You lost the remaining credibility in my eyes. With those statements and this land of sophie thing, my original statements since ever that you write for hurt ego of Islam and not based on facts seems more true than ever. With your kind of history people will develop distorted vision. If there is chance that something is almost obviously a historical lie or weighs 1 in comparison to 1000 for another idea on scale of possible or known truth, you will refer to that weighs-1 thing if it supports your ego. I originally stated that I consider all historians and writers who write biased history or who promote biased history as mere clerks. Christianity and Islam both produced them (by buying third rated historians or simply creating fake names) in much greater numbers than anybody else.

I tried googling 'The Land of the Great Sophie' and the name "Sir Roger Stephens", i couldn't get the former from my reliable sources for such articles.

You can now understand what you focus on and how you pick your stories. When I say Indians/Hindus Brahmins were considerd the wisest men on earth by Greeks since much before Alexandar, you know how many resources point to that and how credible.

Once your mind knows truth your all false projections or beliefs represent fight against your own mind. A fight of your own ego. And I know that for both Hinduism and India you know how good they were compared to the rest especially Islam and Arabs.

I am about to buy that book RajatRangini and will tell you what is there and what you have told your readers. For all history of Kashmir, all you were able to portray was that Hindus killed Buddhists?? There were Huns who killed Buddhists. You didn't mention how peacefully Buddhists Brahmins and Shaivite Brahmins debated with ech other to lure common people. You didn't mention to people that both of them acted to become dominant based on their philosophy and wisdom. Nor how initially Shaivite lost debates and how with Patanjali Shavites eventually won people back.

Your inferences are overly biased and you give distorted conclusions where weight of 1 can be shown to exceed weight of 1000. Further you never mention explicitly what carries weight of 1 and what carries weight of 1000. You seem to be doing it deliberately so that wrong impressions can be created. The first and most important aspect of a historical writng or anything mentioning facts is to make its reader aware of how things weigh on scale of reliability, facts and others, what his own opinion is and why. Mere stating somebody's words is creating illusion. You are deceiving people if you don't tell them how you weigh different opinion and how other people weighed them.Even when asked a question, you will not say anything that can give reader the right perspective with respect to facts.

Please take your time, Murad bhai. Have a safe journey.

Pinku, Murad bhai seems to be indicating that Sufis are not Muslims, but are instead sophists, specializing in sophistry. That would tally with what we know.

But let us wait for his safe return from his travels.

Murarilal G,

If paid Durbari G from Allexander's court or Shahajahan's court writes, how does it become truth?

Tum Murd ho to show us if you can change your name to celebrate your localness? Please scan and post your new biz card with right name ie Murarilal Lakhanpurkar.

Otherwise you are yet another khali G who has nothing to offer to India. 240 people sacrificed their life in Mumbai when Naval mutiny happened in 1946. No Inidan media and Doon/JNU written history will never acknowledge this sacrifice. Similarly recent killing of 85 year old saint and four others with AK47.

Indians wake up from your slumber. Focus on economic welfare but reclaim your freedom and democracy. With todays technology we can have direct democracy we do not need representative democracy with Doon/JNU Gs controlling the media and the parliament. Kangress need to be banned first before SIMI.

Murarilal G,

"I believe that no religion is perfect and like all human thoughts and traditions has to evolve with changing times, technologies and social conventions. Like it or not the world is moving forward ever faster and with ever greater complexities. Even The Prophet recognised this."

Does it occur to you that its not the thought but the human the one who experiences evolves? When a person reaches Samadhi he has dropped the heavy load of mind long back. When he comes back he is a new being with different awareness. He can not express Samadhi, this happening in thoughts and further into the words of a language. Even if he expresses others who have not gone through such experience would not be able to understand. This is individual experience so even all Buddhas, Mahaviras, Janakas and sages were reluctant to pen it down. Even Shivaji, the Great used to experience this kind of Samadhis time to time, but when he expressed it he called it trance of Bhavani Mata, the family goddess. This is so individualastic experince, it's futile to express. Dharma Shastras or scriptures can only help in preparation for this real purpose of human life by lightening the mind and even body. Dharma came up with YogaAsana and Dhyan/Zen/Meditation practices for that. Bhakti, Tirth Yatras, fasts and Bramhacharya etc have same purpose to prepare body mind and intellect.

Pinkuji we need to reclaim Dharma and make sure that the schooling of our kids happen along these lines. I wish Ganesh Pujas need to be conducted with Ganit (Math) competitions. ShivJayantis with rifle shooting competitions. HanumanJayanti with athletic competition.
What do you think? Diwali need to practiced by bombing practice of bombing Doon schools. How is that? All phatakas from all over need to be exploded by packing Doon school gathering hall with phataka explosives. Restrict noise and air pollution to one place. Rest of India should enjoy this phataka exploding on TV.

Re: # 90
Pinku you are quite right about Sufi being derived from the word Souf for a lenght of unstitched wollen cloth that was the only matrial posession of a sufi.

But you are quite wrong about the Macedonians. You should read a fascinating book `The Land of the Great Sophie' by Sir Roger Stephens (Methuen) before rushing to your generalisations about me.

Dear Eklavya im just leaving for Punjab (re a biomass power project for which Im a consultant) so Ill revert in two days.

Murad aka Murarilal Lakhapurkar G,

If you are not practicing Shantist ie Islamist then would you please officially rechristen yourself to celebrate your roots to Murarilal Lakhanpurkar or if you do not like Lakhan then Gomatikar. For Allaha sake live your words. We know India is in hands of old boy Doon network. So low consciousness might be able to hog media just because they have right convent accent.

Abrahmic Ggiri is for uprooting people culturally, dividing families, and subjugating "other" people. That is why I say India needs yet another freedom struggle to free itself from Abrahmic G-giri.

Netaji Palkar, Shivaji the Great's general was bribed to get converted to Shanti aka Islam, when captured by Mughals. Shahajahan was shitting on Delhi throne at that time not G Aurangzeb. (BTW Shahajahan son of Hindu mother was equally cruel to Hindus. One should investigate why the progeny of converted moms turn so saddistic ..is it because the mother is hating the baby which she is carrying against her will? is it because she does not get milk after she delivers the baby? It is so inhuman .. I guess the devils have roots there...our Afghani brothers might be suffering from this civilizational disease called Abrahamitis) Shivaji, the Great knew this trick of dividing Marathas by converting some of them. At the first chance Shivaji the Great did "Shuddhikaran" of Netaji Palkar and also gave hand of one of his close relative to his son.

If one wants to stop what is happening in Orissa, NE, Kashmir Dharmic folks have to rise up. These Abrahmic Gs will nuke each other. Orthodox Russia does not understand for economic well being of its people one does not need to follow the Abrahmic grabbing of other peoples land and resources. As the Chinese ambassador to USA in late eighties conveyed in a gathering of Asians in Bell Labs, India ruled and influenced China by its ideas and Dharma for more than 1K years without sending a soldier or transfer of material wealth from China to India. He was very sad to find India in such a dire state at that time (Punjab, Kashmir and NE violence) because this devillish Abrahmic concept of re-legion. There is something in Dharmic folks that it creates todays Japans, Chinas, NRIs and rising India. Abrahmized south central America, central Asia, Iran, Arabia and Africa is no where near in civilizational progress. Dharma is humunazing. Re-legions are dehumanizing, enslaving divisive devillish concept.

Next time our bro Murarilal starts comparing Dharma with religion, ask him how do you take this religion ... does it go with chikken tikka gravy or sukhi chikken tandoori. These durbari Gs as I said before are good for describing Lenin's goaty and Sophia's Zanty. They are very superficial. In one sentence they will say they follow and like Sankhya, in next sentence Tao and then Buddha. If you ask them to write few lines on Sankhya then they run away.

So, MurarilalG I am still waiting for your few lines on sankhya.


Pinkuji and other folks lets not waste time MurarilalG and other Gs such as EkG and TG. Worry about how we can convert India into China and Japan, a Dharmic progressive one community. Poor Abduls and Salmas are not same as these Gs we need to embrace them and make sure that they give up on religious Ggiri.

Re #87 Posted by muradbaig
Hmm so finally plain deception??

SOHPIE in Greek means wisdom and Sufi in Arabic was related to man of wools.

Where did Greek called Persia land of Sophie??? It is customary for Islam to keep inventing such lies. Now Sufis date back to Alexandar?? For general people (read wikipedia or Jstor articles), rest assured till Islam arrived the Sufis didn't arrive. The sufis were not there in the time of Muhammad himself, forget BCs. Please give a round of applause fo Murad Baig for generating lot of false history to balm Islamic ego. This is natural for Islam, they invent lot many such things. In the times of Alexandar and much before Greeks regarded Indians and Brahmins (Gymnosophists, Bachchanans, Brahmans) as greatest in wisdom.

Your article doesn't (and your book won't as well) reflect that you write history or facts, it reflects that you are normally very biased to paint Islam less bad. For hinduism you have not been able to say when it was bad, and how much. I told you in your earlier article that when it comes to degree the difference is 1 to 1000. You can not change that fact of history.

First you haven't answered my zipsies related comment. Second, your whole attempt

Murad bhai, hopefully, you do know one or two specific things wrong with Islam itself or with the Quran itself, and not with your or mine interpretations of them.

It would be mighty silly to try to show others that Islam was "not as bad" as others think if it is the perfect religion in your view (given that beyong vague feelings, you know nothing specifically wrong with either of them, and not with our interpretations of them.)

Murad bhai,

(1) So please give us one or two specific things that are wrong with Islam itself and/or with the Quran itself - not with your or mine interpretations of those. For instance, one or two things that Hinduism may have got right while the Quran might have got that wrong?

(2) So I take it your criticism of 'wahabi hertics' for opposing the worshipping of Muhammad and Islamic saints was wrong, and 'wahabi heretics' were in this specific case simply asking people to follow Islam. Did we get that right, murad bhai?

Re: # 85

I believe that no religion is perfect and like all human thoughts and traditions has to evolve with changing times, technologies and social conventions. Like it or not the world is moving forward ever faster and with ever greater complexities. Even The Prophet recognised this.

I never said that Muslims worshipper saints. Islam is very definite about this even if many people are followers of pirs and sufi saints. But remember Sufis were around long before Islam. Alexanders macedonians called Persia the land of the great sophie.

Murad bhai, in case you miss that last post, I would re-state the question. Isn't Islam a perfect religion (so any comparison with Hinduims is silly and your efforts are misdirected)?

If Islam is not perfect, and if the Quran is not perfect, what is wrong with Islam itself, with the Quran itself - not with your or mine or anybody else's interpretation of it?

Many thanks in advance.

Murad bhai, welcome.

If your objective is merely to show that Islam was good and Hinduism was bad then you make a good effort. A bit unnecessary though, since Islam is, as you would agree with many, a perfect religion and Hinduism has no good in it.

(By the way, if you by any chance do not agree that Islam is a perfect religion, then please help us by telling us what is wrong with Islam - Islam itself, not your or mine mistaken understanding of it.)

And if you have time, please clarify to NB ji what you meant by those Wahabi 'heretic' even opposing the worshipping of Muhammad and islamic saints.

Thanks a million. I am assuming you would not be too busy.

Re: # 49
Dear Pinku

I have no desire to dilute or exaggerate the good and bad of either Islam or Hinduism but to stick to the historical progression of these and other ideas. But Islam was not always as bad as many in India think nor was Hinduism as good. There were many good and bad patches in all traditions that the mythologists on both sides either cover up or exaggerate. Mythology is not history and often distorts historical knowledge.

Genghiz was a ruthlessly cruel ruler in a very cruel age but if you read Jack Weatherfords very readable history you will see that he was also a remarkable pragmatic, accomodating and tolerant human as well. Though he was devoted only to the `eternal blue sky' he allowed buddhisn, christianity and islam without any restrictions and by opening the trade and transmission of ideas between China and India to the west contributed to the renaissance of Europe.

But since we live in the world of all kinds of interpretations, Murad bhai may help by clarifying that he personally opposes "the worshipping of Muhammad or other saints and praying at tombs."

Before we can buy his stuff we just want to know he is not distorting the 'original message' of Prophets - a charge he levies at everyone but himself.

nb ji, please credit tahmedji and others with some basic intelligence.

Mr Baig criticizes 'Wahabis' for, among many other evil things, "even (opposing) the worshipping of Muhammad or other saints and praying at tombs."

It is not an evening loiter to the dear sufi tomb that Baig Sahib is referring to, that a Muslim may indulge in if "he or she wants to."

Tahmed32, how is a man like you fooled so easily? All that Mr Baig seems to say there is that people should have the freedom to visit Sufi saints' tombs etc if they want. For Kaal to extrapolate that is bad enough, but for you to believe it is mind-boggling.

Re #79 Posted by crazyghan

Perfect.


For a non-arab convert (say south asians or even whites), it takes only one generation to become slave to his/her pseudo Arab/Islamic identity. The first generation is forced and later generations are slave of their own forced identity/ego

Till they confront and accept truths about Islam, nothing good can come out of anything. South Asia went into mess because of Islam. Islam degraded life, no historians ever wrote poors in India or suppression of any sect or jaati in India. As I said the tons of Bhangis, poors emerged after Islamic inavders started settling in India. Most of them were Rajputs. All type of Hindus but mainly Rajputs were captured and killed by these Islamic rulers, exported as slaves and mny escaped as Zipsies, who now live in Europe and elsewhere. Ask Murad Baig to check history of zipsies and he will attempt another distorted theory. But what I am saying is based on their customs, DNA profiles and their own internal history


It is not a myth but the fact that India/South Asia has suffered more than any other part of world at the hands of Islam/Arabs. Islamic invaders looted the farmers, kings and everyone and did nothing but enjoying luxury. India was heaven for them.

We have our own people converted to Islam with whom we can not even reason properly. Those people whose fathers were butchered, whose mothers and sisters were raped and sold openly are NOW protector of Islam. Islam did same thing to Africans. Sold them for centuries and then converted them to Islam(the group ego).

India was beyond comprehension in terms of civilization for Arabs and even rest of the world till 7AD. Most sophisticated thoughts and very good life styles originated in India. Even the concept of Gym was exported to Greece from India. Arabs and Islam destroyed and weakened this civilization by converting/killing its people.

Technically speaking Islam/Christianity/Judaism and majority of the prevalent religions are 'organized religions', that is that these religions act as established institutions. Islam in particular provides a 'complete' code of life meaning that it intervenes socially, culturally, morally, politically as well as financially. While Christianity has come to coexist with the separation of Church and State, Islam is opposed to any form of Secularism and terms it as 'haram'.
It is evident that Muslim South Asians are so culturally controlled and influenced by the Arabs that most never consider themselves relatives with non-Muslim South Asians. They write in Arabic script, dress like Arabs, have Arab names, spend millions on visiting Arab lands, eat like Arabs, die like Arabs, lives like Arabs, read and learn Arabic history and remain sincerely loyal to Arabs, Saudi Arabia in particular - slow cultural death can barely be any worse. Shia/Sunni fundamentalists are no different to Wahabis and coexistence is therefore impossible if you are feverishly attached to 1400 years old fundamentals and events.
Blind and senseless faith may smell like rose but stings with its sweetness and kills with impunity before you have even realized it.

Pinku, that is a matter of faith. 'Prophets' either bring messages/wisdom straight from the Big God or are very human charlatans depending upon whethther one is a believer or not. That's the situation even with such an out and out imposter as late brother Mirza Ghulam bhai sahib.

In fact, that's another nail in the coffin of this all-prophets-preach-good-and-right-messages-and-only-their-followers-mess-up theory.

Also, remember messengers have always been suspect of espionage, mischiefs and imposters. So do try to know who message the messenger is delivering. Verify credentials/intent of messenger and message itself before taking action. If highly suspect use truth serum and lie detection etc.

Murad Ali Beg's "Original" Distortions

Tahmedji, didn't have to search far. I was referring directly to Murad bhai's article 'Hijacking of Islam (http://www.chowk.com/articles/11273)."

There, Murad bhai's basic thesis relates to the "orginal message of Islam", and about how "Muslim leaders (around the world, need to) convince poor Muslims that Wahabi extremism is a heresy to the sacred words of Muhammad."

This wahabi heresy, Murad sahib informs us, "in its opposition to idolatry, even opposed the worshipping of Muhammad or other saints and praying at tombs. It demanded very strict restrictions on the rights of women, Hijab or Burkah, prohibiting the wearing of charms, going to sorcerers, etc."

All these "Wahabi teachings," according to Murad bhai, are distortions to the the words of Prophet Muhammad, just as is the Muslim opposition to "sects like the Bahai’s and Ahmadiyas."

#74 Posted by Eklavya

That was chemical solution for a chemical problem. Basically, it was direct way of indirectly suggesting that if a muslim feels everybody around him/her is making false claims then in future they may have something to rely upon. A DNA testing kit, a DNA profile of an average ARAB, A DNA profile of average north Indian and a software to do a quick comparison and tell you where you stand. That will at least clear the doubts whether they got converted or not. But such DNA testing may not be available soon:-)

pinku, yaar, haven't read all the earliest posts on this thread, but just your last last one (#72) seemed strange.

What has DNA got to do with beliefs, ideas, and identity? And people compare religions all the time, as properly as they can. Why should they (necessarly) adopt Buddhism?

Yes, if Murad bhai finds Buddhism more compelling than he finds Islam, then he should stop calling himself a Muslim (at least in a social context). But no other Muslims has made that claim, as far as we know.

If I misunderstood you, please accept my apologies.

Add to #72 Posted by pinku on

If as per process described in 72, muslims are ready to get converted to Buddhism, we can ask Hindus to convert to Buddhism as well. This will be their gift on joining new religion. Hinduism will be gone along with Islam. If they hate name Buddhism, they can change it to anything other than Islam (not back to same confined ego at all). We cna use name Christianity, but the material used will not be one God of bible:-)

Read it quickly, this may get filtered:-)

Easiest but not that practical solution is for Pakistanis, Kashmiries and Indian muslims to go through DNA test to know whether they have more genes in common with Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs and North Indian Brahmins or with Arabs. This will at least give them some surity about their ancestory and related conversion (if they have any doubt).

They will get to know their percentage of genese from both. If Hindu genese are more, then the next thing is to compare Islam and Hinduism properly, then ask them to adopt Buddhism (not saying Hinduism).

We should provide a cheap "do it yourself DNA testing Kit" that people can use at their homes:-)

Otherwise the normal solution is to reason and show what is wrong with religions in general and Islam in particular.

tahmedji, I will try to find the link/reference so everyone can be sure we are not misrepresenting or misunderstanding Murad Bhai.

My problem with people like him is simply this. All this claim of 'original messages' having been distorted is completely hollow and deceptive if it rests on clear and open distortions of orginal messages by oneself.

We can make progress only if we consciously do not follow the unfortunate route that Murad Bhai has chosen to follow. It stinks to high heavens. People who are openly religious bigots are far better, IMHO.

P.S.: I will post the link later today. Thanks for your patience.

For Murad Baig,

The stories of Upanishads (whether elephant one or Nachiketa or whatever), the Vedas, Puranas or Mahabharta or Gita (derived from Upanishads) were known to common masses since ever. Lots of them infact travelled to Arabs/Persia/Greece. So if and whenver you suggest that those things were not available to commomn people, you are making wrong statement. The hindu system always relied on fables/stories to make people understand what they are saying and they were expert in doing so. Hinduism has probably created more moral stories then any other system religious or not.

Lots of those stories were adpted and plagiarised by Arabs and foreigners and I am using word plagiarised because Arabs today try to deny origins of things that they passed to Europe.

tahmed32,
what do you mean by organized.

The one supported by large number of organizations, nations, lot of money, heavy propaganda machinery or not??

Or do you need one Pope, by that standard you wil conclude that Only Christianity which has few Christian nations will be caled organized, but Islam which has tons of nations and the lies of Saudi Arabia and Iran where the Head of the states themselves are under the rule of Islam will be considered un-organized. That is not a good reasoning though.

#66 in that case Murad bhai's philosophy does not smell like a rose. :-(

Re #52 Posted by guru on
Theoretically, religions shouldn't be allowed to buy people, doesn't matter whether you help those people with Rs 10 or Rs 10 lakhs. If this has to be done, it should be done without using a name of religion.

In fact it is ok to disallow conversion of any type, only people with bad intent (looking for convertibles?) will say that you need religious freedom. Christian missionaries went to China during Olympics and bought some Chinese. And USA asks China to allow religious freedom?? Why should China allow religious freedom, so that it can be messed up with all kind of idiocy and USA can meddle in its internal affairs. WIth religious freedom China and any number of kids, China would have disintegrated several times by now. The number of people killed would have been at least a order of magnitude more than what communists could execute till now. The sufferings would have been much more.

We need religious suppression and not religious freedom, people have already miused lot of religious freedom till now. If they need religious freedom, ask people to leave religion and live with God alone, .

And if somebody still asks for switching to some other religion then give them a month long compulsory training of what is wrong with that religion. Even after that if they feel it is necessary then let them do it but chanrge a heavy amount. I will compile the material that they will need to go through and the questions they will have to answer, and they will be allowed to consult any number of scholars, religious or not:-). Means instead of such freedom they need be discouraged. We know what is there in all religions, forget about just one of them.

tahmed ji, yes. And he has lamented/denounced opposition to the worshipping of Islamic saints.

#64 eklavya: does murad sahib worship saints? i must have missed that reading his article.

tahir bhai, can you or any other knowledgeable Muslim, help us non-Muslims understand this Muradi Islam that worships Islamic saints, and, according to tahmedji, smells sweet as a rose?

We non-Muslims are stumped as to how a committed Quranist can take that stand. Does the Quran - the orignal message - preach the worship of Islamic saints?

Who is distorting which original message here, other than Murad Baig and his "Muslim" supporters?

Re: # 46
"Afghan Atheist"

Join the unhappy godless bunch at ChowQ!

But until Murad Bahi can explain to you and to us what kind of Islam worships saints, and how the original 'message' of Islam's 'founder' - Prophet Muhammad - has been distorted, to us non-Muslims, this entire approach seems little more than large-scale deception - something one does not associate with good Muslims. :)

tahmedji, I do agree that Islam is a rose, and Murad bhai agrees too. :)

#58 eklavya bro: you can call it whatever. a rose by any name would smell as sweet. :-)

cheers!

Following is probably a poem coming out of pain and fear of the future where the abrahmic imperialism, slavery and consumerism (ideas, source of divinity, processed product mfged at distant places owned by few and consumed blindly by perpetually impoverished, psychologically enslaved "other" people/race) will wipe out organic local culture. I am not associated with these good folks.

Swami Laxmanananda: murder foretold
Shreerang Godbole
30 August 2008
back

The gruesome murder of 84-year old Swami Laxmanananda in Kandhamal, Orissa, has exposed the ease with which evangelical groups can access guns, grenades, and other murderous weapons in the pursuit of their agenda to impose their own religion by annihilating local faiths and cultures everywhere.



No one takes seriously the administration claim that the murder is the handiwork of Maoists. It is another matter that in Kandhamal there is little to differentiate Christians and Maoists – the cadres reputedly overlap, and both share the common goal of uprooting Hindu dharma. Indian media followed the Western media in raising a hue and cry over the murder of evangelist Graham Staines, but did not show the same respect to the octogenarian Swami who devoted his life to the welfare of the most downtrodden tribal communities.



The media gave space to the asinine remarks of Australian evangelist Gladys Staines, who has no locus standi to comment on the internal affairs of India , and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was quick to give audience to well-organised Christian leaders after the Bishop of Rome expressed displeasure over native Hindu reaction to grave provocation. The Italian origin and Roman Catholic faith of Congress party president Sonia Gandhi cannot be overlooked in this context – it constitutes a sub-text to the Christian vociferousness, which seeks to drown out the fact that the Krishna Janmasthami murders in the ashram premises was an exceedingly well-organised and premeditated crime.



The tremendous and spontaneous Hindu reaction – paralleling the upsurge over the Amarnath yatra land issue in Jammu – has taken the nation by surprise. But the root causes of the Orissa unrest have been completely glossed over by the media.



Kandhamal is part of the erstwhile undivided district of Phulbani; it was carved into a separate district on 1 April 1994. It derives its name from the Kandh (Kondha) tribes who dominate the area, comprising approximately 51.96% of the 6.5 lakh population of the district. Kandhs are Hindus and enjoy Scheduled Tribe status.



The other community with a significant local presence is the Panas, a Scheduled Caste, who constitute about 16.89% of the district population. The Panas are overwhelmingly Christian and are educationally, economically and politically more advanced. They were the prime targets of the pioneering Christian missionaries who settled in Katingia village of Daringibadi block of Kandhamal in 1883. The Kandh tribe led by Chakara Bisoi, Dohara Bisoi, Dina Kondh and Lochana Kondh valiantly fought the British in 1857, and it was only in 1884 that the British finally managed to subdue this region with the help of converted Panas from present-day Ganjam and Nayagarh districts bordering Kandhamal.



Through untiring efforts spanning four decades, Swamiji succeeded in awakening the Kandhs. This in turn posed a major threat to the political and economic hegemony of the Church. The converted Panas are highly placed in Government and politics. Rajya Sabha MP Radha Kant Nayak is a converted Pana and a blue-eyed boy of the Congress president. He doubles up as chief of the local chapter of World Vision, a highly energetic Christian outfit. Nayak is also connected with the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA). He uses his MP’s fund to distribute largesse to converted Panas through his own NGO called ‘Nishwas’. His alleged role in the murderous attack on Swami Laxmanananda on 24 December 2007 has not been probed to the satisfaction of the local populace.



Christian bureaucrats like Issac Behera and retired IPS officer John Nayak, Lok Sabha MP Sugrib Singh, and former Steel and Mines Minister Padmanabh Behera are other heavyweights who are hand-in-glove with missionaries. The Church reportedly gets massive funds from USA , Italy , Australia and several European countries, and Swami Laxmanananda’s demand for an enquiry into the quantum of foreign funds flowing into the region and their utilization should in the fitness of things be accorded the status of the last testament.



There is a long-standing dispute between converted Panas and Hindu Kandh tribals. Under the law, Panas cannot own forest land as they are not Scheduled Tribes. Throwing legality to the winds, several converted Panas have illegally grabbed forest land. Kandhs who have been rendered landless are forced to work as farm labourers on lands illegally occupied by Panas. Seething discontent over this state of affairs first manifested in the 1994 Kandh-Pana clashes that left 50 persons dead.



Despite a High Court order to evict encroached land, Christians continue to illegally occupy the land. Being Scheduled Castes, Panas are legally not allowed reservation benefits after conversion. One way they get around this law is by concealing their conversion. Radha Kant Nayak, a 1962 batch IAS officer, is widely reputed to have gained entry into the IAS through Scheduled Caste quota by fraudulently concealing his convert status. The growing clamour for public scrutiny of such cases is said to be behind the setting up of the Justice Ranganath Mishra Commission, which expectedly recommended reservation benefits for all SC converts.



Another way to beat this law is by securing Scheduled Tribe status. This will enable Panas to enjoy reservation even after conversion, as an oversight in the Constitution did not deprive ST converts of reservation rights. Naturally, Church-inspired organizations such as the Phulbani Kui Jana Kalyan Sangh are clamouring for Scheduled Tribe status for Panas.



Moreover, the delimitation of constituencies has resulted in the reservation of the lone Lok Sabha and all Vidhan Sabha Assembly segments for Scheduled Tribes. The posts of President of the Zilla Parishad, Block Chairmen and majority of elected Zilla Parishad members and posts in Panchayati Raj institutions have also been reserved for Scheduled Tribes. The flip side of this is a loss of political and social relevance for the Christian Panas and the Church. Hence the sense of urgency in the demand for Scheduled Tribe status for Christian Panas.



The Kandhs speak the Kui dialect, which is also known to the majority of Panas. Disregarding the fact that ‘Kui’ is a dialect, not a community, Panas are falsely claiming to be Kuis and demanding ST status!



In 1981, the J.B. Patnaik government bowed to the Christian lobby and recommended that Kuis be included in the list of Scheduled Tribes. The Christian lobby won a major victory in 2002 when a Presidential order included Kuis in the list of STs. The Phulbani Kui Jana Kalyan Sangh promptly filed a writ petition in the High Court claiming that in Kandhamal district, Kuis were wrongly listed as a Scheduled Caste instead of Scheduled Tribe in land revenue records and consequently deprived of Constitutional concessions granted to STs.



Finally, the High Court asked the State Government to take a decision in the matter. Mercifully, the State Government submitted that as the Record of Rights of the Panas did not mention them as a Scheduled Tribe, their demand could not be met. The Orissa Government has consistently maintained that “this demand is not based on historical and anthropological facts.�



Kandh organizations such as Phulbani Kui Seva Samiti, Nikhil Utkal Kui Samaj, Kui Kul Samiti and Kui Sanskritik Parishad are struggling to stave off the Pana demand for Scheduled Tribe status. They have formed an umbrella organization called Kui Samanvaya Samiti to safeguard the rights of Kandhs.



More than anyone else, Swami Laxmanananda was a symbol of Kandh hopes and aspirations. The missionaries knew that the resurgent Kandh Hindus could force them to close shop. With Swamiji out of the way, the Archbishop of Cuttack-Bhubaneshwar, Msgr. Raphael Cheenath could afford to indulge in some bluster. Speaking after Swamiji’s murder, Cheenath bragged that the roots of the Church in these parts were deep and that the Church would continue to provide light for generations to come.



In Jammu , Hindus have risen in the defence of Dharma, throwing up new leaders in the process. Orissa – land of Jagannath , Lingaraja, Kalinga-Jina – cannot lag behind. It owes this much to Swamiji.



Dr. Godbole is a Pune-based endocrinologist, social activist and author.

tahmedji, IMHO, Murad bhai is as good a follower of Islam as you - which is a great credit to him, but for some reason he chooses not to present himself as a Muslim.

Like you, he too believes that there is no priesthood in Islam, so opposition to priesthood in 'all religions' makes sense.

He also claimed that Muslims worship saints, and has lamented the opposition to this worship of Muslim saints.

Unless we get some clarification on those issues from him, or from those who support him, this seems to be all an excercise in futility.

I would so wish he would clarify what Islam this is - I would call it Muradi Islam for now.

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Eklavya bhai: I wasnt too sure what you meant. I therefore read Murad Baig's article - he seems to be saying something I can subscribe too, i.e. the hell with religious priesthoods (in all religions) and let us see religion as what it was when presented by the various founders.

Thus, e.g., jesus did not preach original sin or his own divinity. this bs came later. similarly for all religions.

I think he is on the mark when he writes this. And being on the mark, he is no doubt causing severe agony to the followers of priests and other hoodlums.

tahmedji, not only does Muradi Islam have the pope, the clergy, and 'distorts the original message of the its 'founder' - Prophet Muhammad', it also worships saints.

tahmedji, not only does Muradi Islam have the pope, the clergy, and 'distorts the original message of the its 'founder' - Prophet Muhammad', it also worships saints.

murad beg: since when is islam an "organized religion"? where is the pope, the clergy? no doubt mullahs would like to make it one - but that hasnt happened in 14 centuries and is not about to happen.

pinkuji,

the problem is with us. dharma needs to be organized so that it can fight with this abrahmic ghost sucking blood of humanity for last 1700 years. There is no point in discussing with Murarilal Lakhanpurkar aka ScumBaig. Here is what we need to do:

"Why not? Some say that Hindus don't have a "religious duty" to donate a.la "tithing" for Christians and Zakat for Muslims but can we not take the initiative to do that? I see tons of NRI gazillionaires and even regular "Oracle jockey" types who drive BMW 7-series to temples. If we as a community cannot open our hearts for a good cause, do we deserve to whine about other faith people who are more generous than us? I see old ladies dependent on medicare giving generously to churches. Why don't we do the same?

As a disclaimer, I was not a major donor until some recent family developments forced me to look at things a different way. While I agree that EJ funds need to be monitored on par with other security concern funds, we do need our society to open up and donate towards the development of downtrodden segments who want to stay within the Sanantan Dharma fold. I daresay that our funds can have a higher efficiency of "saving souls" than EJ funds because we are not buying to change status quo, we are just contributing to improve lives incrementally. In other words, if it takes Rs. 10 lakhs per person for an EJ to "buy a soul", I bet we can make 100 people to say no to EJ bribing for the same amount.

BTW, the first generation of EJ induced converts essentially remain Hindus for life. It's the next generation onwards that turn hostile to their parent faith."

To ignore Murarilal please write the responses on Faraz articles.

pinku#49:

There is no need to harass anyone; if Baig saheb does not want to respond to any comment or comments, either because he considers them as unworthy of response or he has no answer,it is his prerogative. This is an open forum where all comments and responses/non-responses are seen by everyone and people can make their own minds. People, including you and I, have strong identities which are not easily shaken by others' opinions and 'facts'.

Re #22 Posted by Regards

Regards,

I replied to your message earlier but it didn't get posted as Chowk blocked my messages for 24 hours after filtering out one of my messages.





Don't remembre exactly what i said there, but here is the essence (is much bigger than the original post:-)):



What Murad is doing is good in his context, your suggestion of historical plays will be good too. However, you are not aware of strength of Islamic conversion/propanganda machinery or what you are trying to achieve with Murad type history or your plays?? They churn out amazing number of lies and they are still capable of converting whites, africans and Indian low castes based on those lies.



You know the cost of openly leaving Islam?? So all these conversions are one way streets and identity of being muslim is then passed to next generation (though their parents got fooled). The next generations then become attached to ego "I am muslim, so anything

against Islam is against me". And then they are ready to help in propaganda.



The lies spread for Islam can not be controlled by anything other than creating some large scale truths that simply can not be denied. Truths Similar to earth revolves around Sun, that can not be challenged today.



TILL Islamic states understand human values,

till Islam in general doesn't say that their values are different from values of rest of humanity,

till their top end clerics feel shame in spreading utter lies,

till their MPs in secular countries (like in Tasleema Nasreen case in India) feel that people only need to respect truths and not lies,

till they don't be so hypocrite that their 100% Islamic states are not considered communal, their 100% Islamic political parties in secular states are not considered communal, though they consider parties somewhat working for any other religion to be communal (say BJP, you can say it is communal only when you don't have political Islam).



till educated muslims can openly say "no book is word of god" and can still call themselves muslims (or can safely question the lies and stand for his/her view point)

till well over 50% muslims believe in truths and not Islamic lies (reduce it to only 33% if you want)





TILL THEN, YOU DON'T NEED TO BALM GROUP EGO OF ISLAM. IT IS TOO EARLY.







One such truth that is opposed by both Christians and Islam is "no book is word of God". And again if you don't know what level of people support this then I can tell you. Tahir on this forum and many others won't accept it overtly though they will give you hints that they do understand it. If you survey an Islamic country you will be baffled to know how many people feel like that. Even in USA the numbers will be shocking to you.



At highest level of education and understanding, say for people here on chowk representing 0.00X percentage of muslims, you should first force the truths on them. See what they can or can not say, make them aligned with diluted version if they are already not.



For not so educated middle class, you will have to use the strong general truths those that are already accepted by most educated class almost unanimously, to dilute the religion in front of them.



For poors and those who are not at all educated, you don't need to do anything they are good people with no big egos, they will accept truths without even any plays once they are accepted by people with large egos.



Once you have created some large-scale strong truths that act as killers for lies spread by propaganda machinery, you can dilute any religion to whatever level you want. Still, you don't need to lie about history. Once people are no more Hindu, muslim, truths won't have to fight with their egos.



The greatness of Hinduism in comparison of Islam is one such truth that can be spread quite easily. There are many philosophers, scientists, historians and what not, who were not Hindu but who had to say that the ideas that Hinduism gave were the best that ever came from any religion. This is fact and muslims can not find anything denying it, you just have to point them to resources. No other religion can boast of such a life time and grand support from people who were not native to that religion.



It is perfect to dilute religion, it is perfect to leave them, but don't dilute the importance of Hinduism to help spread of Islamists and their lies.



Hindus were already the first to dilute religions by giving that elephnat and blind men tale in their Upanishads, but Islam and Christianity found it hard to digest. They oppose it very strongly (with very absurd reasoning) and keep repeating theirs is the only way to know the real God:-)



So when in doubt support the truth and not suppression of it even if it seems slightly against your modesty. So do say that Hinduism is great till we need to confront Islam, once we are done you can say only ideas are great and religion is not needed. I chose to say both alll the times.

Re #39 Posted by muradbaig,

Dost_mittart wrote a few things that show where your generalizations are wrong.

Let me tell you clearly (refer to reply from dost_mittar or I can give you other instances)

If your whole book is written on these lines, then it shows an attempt to dilute the badness of Islam by hinting more bad in Hinduism than it has.


So, in your case, you talk about sufism when you refer to cosmic nature ofGod, while sufism hardly has anything compared to Hinduism and what Hinduism has is also much more ancient.

Again you refer to Genghis Khan to show the idea that God can not be confined to a mosque/building, while Hinduism gives much more idea about why it is infinity or why it can't be confined to anything.

Remember, For Islam at present it is not important to save/balm the group ego, at present it is important to show where it is based on wrong premises. Saving and balming of this ego will only embolden those who churn out constant lies in spreading Islam.

Mr Baig, can I just say I read your auto articles as a teenager (along with Veeresh Mehta's!)because of my brother, who was a great fan of Indian Auto or Auto India or both (quite remarkable that all of you had such a devout following considering we hardly had anything to choose from)! I hope you still write for those magazines now that we have genuine choices, but I can see why you write about other things like this article. Good luck with your book, not that you need it, since so many revheads will be buying it!

Dear nb

Im glad the discussion is now mainly back onto the subject of the article. My reason to write this is because I have written a book (now going into a third edition with translations into Hindi)as some of you are aware on the history, mythology and religion of India (read Indian subcontinent)for which I tried to learn as much as I could about all religions.

I am therefore deeply pained by the many evils that men do in the name of religion and feel compelled to write about it in the hope that a better understanding of religion might make people more tolerant to others and slightly lower the velocity of hate and violence.

I, too , have a Muslim name and can not escape the fact that I was born and raised in a Muslim country. It is experience and the sense that 'something is not right' that makes u think outside the box. It's a blanky lonely place to be in. Once you dare to question the conventional wisdom and the traditional truth, threads start to loosen up and you end up realizing your unfortunate existence.

The Afghanistan that stood at the heart of Buddhist crossroads of trade and thoughts has been an Arab proxy for over a thousand years where 'man-imals' kill each other routinely over who was the better Arab.

It took one Zia-ul-Haq to bring Pakistan down to what it has become in the recent years. Afghanistan has been unfortunate enough to have one Zia after another and another.

When your faith/religion becomes more than just an issue of your personal belief, your life and the lives of those around you worsen to the bottom of human character and dignity. At least, Pakistan has been lucky to have had Faiz, Manto, Sahir, Jalib and Faraz.

Afghan Atheist

Re: # 44

chronology my dear nb!

All of that, yes, akcheema, but you will have noticed most of this was written about around a 100 years ago. How often do you read these literary "outbursts" now?
I am aware that secular Jews have often been more Zionist than anyone else too (and I am also aware of the tussle between secular and religious Jews in Israel and throughout the Jewish community). I don't know if you misunderstood my question!

Re: # 42; nb

may I suggest Russel's "why I am not a christian" or some of the stuff Antony Lowenstein talks about .... and I am pretty certain their basic morality and other such concepts still had deep roots within their respective Christian or Jewish heritage ... they still had/have the "need" to write, did they not?

in fact during the 19th and 20th century, there was a "literary outburst" of epidemic proportions by "heretic" writers ... and I am sure they all still celebrated Christmas and Easter (or Hannukka) with their families!!

... in fact, majority of groundwork in the Zionist movement around the world has been done by the so-called "non-religious/atheistic jews"! that list includes Mr Ben-Gurion ... the first PM of the State of Israel ... may be you should read up on this "conflict" too before getting carried away!

unless I misunderstood your question to Murad Beg completely?

have to go but will talk again no doubt

Murad Ali Baig, I believe the real story is that you feel the need to write an article like this. There are so many people who share your general inclinations, but who happen to be of Jewish or Christian or dare I say it, Hindu descent, that an article by any of them on these lines would be unremarkable.
I would also like to point out that a number of your 'core' beliefs and interpretations of reality are heavily influenced by Islam. But you knew that already.
Overall, good for you, but why did you need to write this? I'm sure you have an answer, I just can't see it.

hmm..

Murad,

If you are indeed what you say (but do not claim to repeat the Abrahmic lies) then I am all for people like you.

Re: # 38; Tahir sahib

[[what in God's name is a 'non-practising Muslim'? ]]

two types sir,

1 - the "non-believers" (born with a Muslim heritage but saw sense later in life through personal endeavour ... and 'thinking outside the box' as it were) .... hence "don't belive or practice group" and

2 - those who are "munaafiqs" ... and the latter group includes those who boast a kind of "imaan" that makes them exempt from ritualism and the affects of general basic Islamic jurisprudence when they vehemently advocate those for others!

there are many belonging to the latter group who openly advocate a "taliban" style governement, but deny the value of ritualism in Islam and also openly do things clearly described as "haraam" within the Quran (the 'origina' OR 'asadite version'), such as alcohol, zina etc ... as a matter of fact, boast upon these clearly haraam qualities with some sense of pride ... however would vehemently deny those same "vices" to their fellow men under the Muslim jurisprudence .... you know the type Tahir sahib! ... "the believing yet non-practicing group".

I'd, of course class myself in the former group (much to your dismay) .... my association is purely that of "ethnicity" and not that of "belief".

Trust you NKG to kick off with that old ploy of trying to shoot the messenger instead of commenting on the pros and cons of the message. I think Chowk readers would much prefer the products of your mind than to your empty flatulance.

Other interacts have questioned whether I am really a Muslim or not. I have clearly said that I follow no religion but do not deny that I have inherited a Muslim name with a recorded ancestry that I am proud of. But these do not mean that this messenger is disqualified from expressing his views for others to evaluate.

Pinku is quite correct that there are many generalisations in this article but these are not intended to create a base to attack any religion. I never said all religions are equally good or bad and have not singled out any except for the basic ideas of Buddhism that appeals to me. No interactor has so far contradicted any of the generalisations.

I may not believe in any religion but have never condemned anyone for their faiths or religious beliefs. For me the litmus test is:

Does faith or religion contribute to personal and social harmony?

Sadly most religious, national and political identities fail this test and are usually the main causes of the violence and hatreds that so plague our societies today

Mr. Baig, what in God's name is a 'non-practising Muslim'? Surely Prophet Muhammad (peace on him) never showed us THIS way?

I suggest you return to PRACTISE; the rest is all idle talk and pseudo-intelleculism, a mix of this with a dash of that, a spiritually useless cocktail.

Peace.

# 35 "According to Nietzsche the only reason we live in families, communities, tribes, nations, states, churches is simply to prepare for war with others."

LOL
In the nearest language, it always works.

And Furthermore ....Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine.

This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception." There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.

According to Nietzsche the only reason we live in families, communities, tribes, nations, states, churches is simply to prepare for war with others.

The religious contingent of humanity; although they insist on posing as peaceful and on falsely equating their faith with goodness as well purporting the fear of god to a basis for morality are in fact the most belligerent, malcontent, perverse and indeed ugly representations of mankind and remain the avant-guard of all criminality and inhumanity.

mr. baig,
your personal faith is your own choice but describing yourself as a 'muslim who doesn't believe in any organised religion' is actually an oxymoron and a contradiction. it is perfectly possible to be a non-practising Muslim but not to be a Muslim if you don't believe in any organised religion which, presumably, per your understanding, includes Islam too?
So you're a Muslim who doesn't believe in Islam?!

Re: # 32
yeah! only if he gets it.

#31 Matloob, Message is simple, clear, concise and fits very well for a war time society just like when and where it was delivered. Apply it in a pacified society like in India or even Europe, you'll certainly kill a few unsuspecting ones, but then you'll be suspected. Don't blame discrimination by others. When Murad blames all religions, I read his own religion of birth, in view of his (and probably of all of us)personal safety.

Now how to tackle an aggressive paranoid, put him in the couch if you can and go with him slowly over his past. Help him take out the imagined hostility & conspiracy theories by others. When he is reconciled with his history, he'll be as pleasant and pacified as others. That is what I'm asking Murad to work for, if he is serious. regards

Re: # 29
Oh well! you say things. That makes it altogether a different story.
When it comes to following a faith as an individual I find myself committed and do not accept that my devotion is meant to be measured by others like myself and only subject to an assessment by the one I believe in as the Supreme Authority. Based upon this I do take into consideration scholars who know more than I do to learn but nothing like mufti's or mullahs who with their ill skills twist & manipulate and even go to the extent of manipulating things to favor them personally.
In as much as I am concerned and without imposing on anyone else I find that the message is clear, concise and simple based on the logical existence of humans and their innovative brains, prior to blaming the industry of mufties and mullahs it is important to understand that it is us who have been shopping their flawed products and encouraging them to carry more of the same for too long, this places the responsibility with "us" for promoting and patronizing what we describe now as a bad experience which compels us to look for other innovations, once again depriving ourselves of the truth.
If one makes a sincere effort they will find a right size and right color shirt to wear which is better than tearing up a pair of pants and using one of the legs instead of a sleeve and cut half of a shirt to cover the other side of our body, put the collar where coattail goes and the cuffs at the shoulder, wear two different style shoes on each foot;imagine what a clown one would look in such an attire finding a little of what one likes from here and there and put it all together! sounds like the story narrated by the author.

Re: # 28
Very true sir.

Satyamvada, Matloob,

If you were carrying a muslim name, you'll also be wondering whether you should take the risk of having fatwas against you. Murad is taking more risk by stating clearly his buddhist penchant. By generalising to all religions, he is simply taking an elementry precaution. It is silly to go after him for that, specially when his whereabouts are not hidden.

Now for the labels and affiliations. A free thinker is naturally not affiliated. Basic values are not worn on the sleeves and can also be reviewed at any time. You may also so that basic also changes with time. 'Commies' have at least basic values much more advanced that our reverred Ambanis and Mittals. I do not agree with several propositions of Murad but it does not mean that I'm not prepared to look in them. Being open to change is cultivated and necessary for evolution. Bertrand Russel and Jean Paul Sartre disowned later in the life most of what they had defended earlier. Only sacred motto is that everything can be questioned, there is NOTHING SACRED

Matloob bhai, the only option for both Hindus and Muslims is to refute this kind of trash factually.

Unfortunately, there is a great deal of market among Hindus for "All-religions-are-the-same" argument so this cancer will be around us for a while, until Muslims are strong enough to put an end to it in India too.

Re: # 26 by
satyamvada
Very well said in a comprehensive and eloquent yet brief statement. Appreciate your brilliant comments.

The author of the article is from the type of people who have no class and yet attempt to adjust in every.

What would astray people of this mindset know about themselves because based on their very own statement they are "nothing", yes "nothing" zilch, zero so they pick up a placard and join the chorus that is in progress any chorus for that matter, and, yet they hide themselves behind their so-called wisdom by stating that they chose not to be a part of any, on one hand they claim to appreciate the core values of all yet they don't have any for themselves; another face of starvation of spirituality.

Someone who knows him/herself, would never place themselves as low as this author describes himself i.e. he belongs no where, yet feels that he knows too much to be a part of anything---huh.

What a waste.

Murad,

You are nothing but a closet-jihadi.
You want to create this equal-equal nonsense just like
your paki counterparts like tahmed, ylh etc.
You claim that everyone destroyed religious buildings
etc - which is completely false. In your previous writings
you tried to regurgitate all that commie-nonsense and
falsities.

Now you try to portray yourself as a humanist ?
Shame on you. You are a hypocrite. You dont have basic
values or standards on which to compare people and
their actions. You try to cover up bigotry and
enable bigots by creating false equivalencies and
everyone is the same nonsense.
Go do some introspection. Maybe someday you will turn
out to be more honest.

Murad:

Thanks for a simple and sincere statement of what is truly sacred. I hope there are more people like yourself out there. The truth shall set you free.

Baig bhai, the ONLY thing that matters is whether you call yourself a Muslim. It's the identity that determines the politics. The rest is irrelevant.

In fact, if you have the identity, then denying the rest is simply politics.

#9 great exchanges, lol, its the best entertainment show I've seen in days, no months..hahaha LOL
In the nearest language, it always works.

#21 Pinku, I've no problem with your statement per se. Pls reread what I've written: "Hindus have STARTED...". It is an alarming beginning as in Orissa and not an established practice among Hindus. Strength of Hinduism lies in its liberal coexistent thinking. Let us not lose that for such a petty reason as " to counter Islam". Christianity and Islam always had the ultimate goal of proselitism only and that is why the society around mediterranean lived through the dark period of middle ages. When greco-romaine thousands of Gods were discovered during renaissance, dichotomy, embedded in secularity of the separation of politics and religion had to be invented.

Indian philosophies were never restrictive in thought. This is why science, maths, astronomy developped till 5th century AD until Islam arrived in India. As we're trying today, Advait of Shankara or Bhakti movement tried to "counter islam" by copying similar stratagem of single Godhead and total devotion. But did it succeed in bringing back social progress and free wheeling thought? No it killed our own capacity to interrogate established and invent new until western trick of separating politics and religion was reused. India was producing almost half of world's GDP in 5th century under atheistic regimes like buddhism. It slipped to about a quarter under islam and then now to 5% with the onslought of Christianity and Islamic sectarisaiton of bonded thought. Let us not allow Hinduism also to hold us up.

If islam's inherent coercion of thought has to be countered, it can be done by destroying the 'sacred' in it as it happened in christianity and in Hinduism.and retaining the profane history. Islam of today should be freely analysed in history PhD's without any mullah threatening retribution. We should not convert all things Hindu also in 'sacred' where there is none.

Re #19 Posted by Regards

[[I agree with most of what you're writing. 'Hindus' have started also raising agressive exclusivity of 'Greatest religion' etc.. and proselization. ]]

which non-hindu have they converted and started calling hindu???

How many people world-wide can claim that a hindu came to them and gave them a lecture to show how good is hinduism and then asked to get converted to "real" religion, peaceful religion, "true" religion, "latest" religion, "fastes: religion or other adjectives that Islam uses??

Westerners in USA have joined Ravi Shankar or many such Gurus but they are never told that you are hindu or you should be hindu. That is the strength of Hinduism, they don't need number, they have quite a few great ideas.


'Greatest religion' part is needed to counter Islam, which despite being not so good, claimed greatness fo so long and scavenges for people almost everywhere. Islam and Christianity have divided Africa among themselves. THe same people who made them slaves have converted them to their faith?? People should be made to understand the difference. Most Hindus won't mind getting rid of Hinduism if Islam can be converted to some other good enough religion. Hindus despite saying good things about hinduism are not attached to hindusim the way muslims are, mainly because Hinduism has more or less conveyed it properly that God is not property of any religion.

Islam and Christianity on the other hand consider God to be thier property.



And don't try to filter this comment out till you can reason against what is said above??

dost_mittar:

Very pertinent points in your comment #14. Good Job!

Murad,

I agree with most of what you're writing. 'Hindus' have started also raising agressive exclusivity of 'Greatest religion' etc.. and proselization. Probably one way to stop the snowball of rot in Indian society is to do what christians have been doing since renaissance and Hindus have been doing since Kalidas at least. Put Quran in perspective as a reorded history of histimes by Mohammad.

You write well. You're a historian. Can you dare making a drama, a story, a novel based on Quran as it has been already done of Bible, Mahabharat. I know you'll be threatened yourself too by the same Mullahs. But somewhere we have to start.

Baig Saheb:

"The accounts of the horrible atrocities attributed to Mahmud Ghazni or Aurangzeb came from no contemporary Jain, Buddhist or Hindu source"

Which Hindu, Jain, Buddhist source are you referring to?

I notice that you omitted Sikh sources; they do describe these atrocities, starting with Guru Nanak's description of Babar's time.

As for Mahmood Gazani, there was a PBS documentary in 1999 about the ten richest men at the time of the dawn of the second millennium; one of these men was Mehmood Ghazanavi, and he was rich not because of the gold he had plundered from India but by the number of Hindu slaves he had brought - the number of even those who survived the Hindukush (hindu-killer) mountains was so large that it dramatically depressed the slave market of that time.

I think that you will be on safer, not necessarily correct, grounds by saying that these atrocities were committed by people who happened to be Muslims but had nothing to do with Islam

Re #14 Posted by dost_mittar

dost-mittar,

your comment is excellent. Let Murad Baig imbibe it.

All these gurus are capable of creating religion in much more speedy ways than Prophet did. Further they say less un-intelligent things than Kuran says. Whether it is Rajneesh or Sai Baba.
It is Hinduism the umberrala religion that protects people from becoming totally mad, because it has given all those ideas that Gurus recycle. The product differentiation is what these Gurus can not achieve so easily against that ultra old Hinduism, further most of them don't intend to make any religion and most of them are not bad for society.

#14 Posted by dost_mittar


[[
"but I hate the way the thoughts of the founders have been universally twisted by the Mullahs, Pandits, Padres, Rabbis and other professional priests who claim to be the `sole selling agents’ of their brands of GOD"

The above sentence makes no sense in the context of Hindus, since they do not have any founder or founders. As for as hindus are concerned, there are thousands of "dhai eent ki 'masjids'" and all of them are equally valid.
]]


right, but it shows how liberal Murad Baig is and how "loose" he is hanging when he has to make biased statements to paint all of them alike.

Re #14 Posted by dost_mittar on

Murad Baig doesn't understand that hindus or jains were getting killed and they were neither in position to write against invaders or to protect anything.

I doubt anybody with average intelligence will call those things as alleged when those who committed it have already written them in their effort to acclaim priase in this world and prize in the other.

Baig Saheb:

You have described yourself well, and from this description, you come across as a man of liberal views with a Muslim identity. One needs not have a faith to have a faith identity; Jinnah was an Islamist without being a practising Muslim; Savarkar was a Hindu nationalist without being a practising Hindu; such is the nature of identity. For example, you say: "The accounts of the horrible atrocities attributed to Mahmud Ghazni or Aurangzeb came from no contemporary Jain, Buddhist or Hindu source but from the flowery pens of Persian flatterers to praise their piety and their alleged violent destruction of Hindu temple", but no Indian with a non-muslim identity would use the qualifier "attributed" and "alleged" in referring to those atrocities. These were not necessarily flowery pens, Baig saheb, but the chroniclers of a time when morals were different and they did not know that their subjects would one day be answerable to a different set of moral code.

"but I hate the way the thoughts of the founders have been universally twisted by the Mullahs, Pandits, Padres, Rabbis and other professional priests who claim to be the `sole selling agents’ of their brands of GOD"

The above sentence makes no sense in the context of Hindus, since they do not have any founder or founders. As for as hindus are concerned, there are thousands of "dhai eent ki 'masjids'" and all of them are equally valid.

"I am also very suspicious of most of the `gurus’ and `babas’ because many, despite their huge followings, are often surprisingly narrow minded in their views and ignorant about history and culture."

Some of us may say the same things about other prophets and founders who also started out as a cult and grew large enough to be called a religion. I firmly believe that a religion is a large cult and a cult is a small religion. Let us compare one of these better known babas, Satya Sai Baba with the Prophet most of us, including you would never criticise. Satya Sai Baba has persuaded a lot more people - among them the most highly educated, rational thinkers and scientists about his being a God - than did the Prophet of his prophethood in his lifetime, and has done so without lifting a single sword or killing a single person; instead, he is known for sponsoring humanitarian causes, such as opening schools and medical facilities for the poor. Now, I happen to believe that he is a charlatan but that is neither here or there. The point is should we disrespect these babas while respecting dead prophets and founders simply because they are dead and were able to convince a far more gullible and less skeptical audience than is the case today?

The article doesn't make much sense. To ;engthy and incoherent and tries to create a confusion that all religions are equally good or bad. Hinduism in the first gear itself, by 600 BC has said many wonoderful things in Upanishads (much before Budhdhism). And after that much before the advent of Islam or Christianity, Hinduism and Budhdhism said all that can be said about God.


It is difficult to find a single good idea that Islam or Christianity brough to world that was not already there in Hinduism or Budhdhism and that has not been dealt much more comprehensively by them.

And as Dalai Lama says Budhdhism takes most from Hinduism only, it takes its ideas from Hinduism and same Brahmins from Hinduism created most of it after Budhdha, considering it to another way of life or sect in hinduism.



Murad ends his article with "Hang loose....", but he seems to be hanging tight even after claiming that he is non-practicing muslim.

Also, the phrase "non practising muslim" suggests that he is a muslim, but he also impresses upon reader that he doesn't care about organized religions, as if he nomore belong to religions. This is trivial difference (not muslim or non-practising muslim), but this confusion is what get reflected in all his applogetic attempts to dilute the differences of religions.

All can be left and good ideas can be used/imbibed, but saying that all were same is as good as lying. This is an established fact that Indic religions are more universal and tolerant and those derived from Judaism are more violent/intolerant. Further philosophy of thought remained integral part of Hinduism/Buddhism created by their priests in the name of religion itself, while Christianity/Islam found it so hard to deviate from their books for so long and the later Sufi thoughts are mostly taken from Hinduism or Indic religion (and are still less comprehensive compared to the original thoughts in Hinduism).

Those who need references can check tons of philosophers or writers or historians who reflect the same ideas that I said above...like Mark Twain, Schopenhauer, Voltaire, Max Muller etc...

Murad Baig:
I was on a brief visit to Toronto in Canada. I was surprised to see you making comments in an Asian TV reporting- on auto industry in India. You have broken into the rank of reputable international commentators.
Kamath
0948AM

laddu,

Thanx but no thanx. I am an alert person.
V

"The founders of no religion demanded any temples, churches, mosques or places of worship. Even for The Prophet, Mecca was the focal centre but followers could pray wherever they wanted."

This is nonsense. Mecca was called the TEMPLE OF ABRAHAM. That was the reason why the idols were destroyed. Murad you are even ignorant of your own religion.

"Why should a cross, crescent, idol, talisman or other image be sacred? Those who believe that these have the power to miraculously protect the wearer are not religious but simply superstitious."

Again it presumes that belief in a "formless-deity" is NOT a superstition but any other belief in spiritual entities is a "superstition.
The notion of 'miracle' and Spiritual -deity's constant 'protection' to the sadhaka and believers is the cornerstone of a human-being's relation with the deity.

"I have been to almost all the main temples, mosques and churches in India and greatly admire their art and architecture but do not find anything sacred about them......"

Again you contradict the very notion of a "sacred" space within Islam .
The notion of "sacred-spaces" as well as "sacred-times" is one of the cornerstone of religious revelations.
Mecca is a "sacred-space" , so is Badrinath, so is Haridwar ..... this is a different notion altogether ...Yes, the "sacredness" of a sacred-space can be eroded by time and evil people. That is why Mecca can become a place of hatred and Haridwar can become a place of shame.
You have no concept of sacredness of space and time.

" Magnificent art and architecture generated huge awe and admiration of religious themes so all religions were great patrons of many things of great beauty."

you need to read something on Rasa-Theory to understand that the higest rasa leads to Shanta-Rasa and spirituality.
That is why sacred places have to be the most beautiful aesthetically for all the senses. hindu Temples have to be the most beautiful for the spirtuality to flourish.
The Sadhaka has to be most clean in order to visit these sacred places. Do you think why muslims have to wear the best and wear perfume before going to Jumma Namaaz??

"But I do not believe that they were `houses of god' but places where priests could get rich from the offerings of gullible devotees."

nonnsense, every sacred house needs people who maintain it properly,

"Genghis Khan was right when he said at Bukhara… God is too great to be confined to any house."

Genghis Khan was a rascal. It does not take a bit of intelligence to see the depravity and stupidity of his thought. Only an ignorant can even think that others believe that God can be confined to some place or time.

"I also find no innate sanctity in any of the material things that the priests of all religions promote."

you do not find any sanctity is any human material form as well. You can blow the body parts of the entire humanity and clain it to contain no spirituality?? You are a nihilistic mad man.



" What is spiritual about Ayodhya, Ramasethu, Mecca, Jerusalem or any of the places of religious myth? "

For those who believe in the existence of spiritual spaces/places there is . I know of places where just upon entering one enters into a state of meditation. You have no idea about such places because you can never experience that state of meditation with your nihilistic nonsense.

Re: # 6

V,

You want to remain ignorant like a frog in his well of ignorant Islamic thought.....

Please do that- just do not try to claim "supremacy" of your 'formless' Alter ego!!

" universally twisted by the Mullahs, Pandits, Padres, Rabbis and other professional priests"

It too presumptous to think that others' claim to the truth of their 'brands' of GODs is sullied by temporal considerations but the SAME claim made regarding the BRAND of God called Allah by individuals who are called "Prophets" is true....
By your logic Mohammad was equally a charlatan whose claim to revelation was sullied by his thirst for temporal power.

"I believe that all the founders of all religions were simple human beings who loved all humanity."


this is again make too many pre-sumptions. The notion of Masoomiyat is just another hog wash. Most of the so called founders were infact lustful, greedy people with full of anger and hatred towards those who ddid not follow them.


"........ by frequently distorting the words of the founders in their sacred scriptures "

Who decides whether the words were "distorted" or not? You? or the Ulemas?

"I also find no sanctity in the huge baggage of customs that all religions so venerate. Christmas and Easter were Roman Pagan customs that the Catholic priests made a part of Christian faith several centuries after the death of Jesus."

nonsense!!. Pagan "customs" were part of the pagan "religion" . It is only the Abrahmic cults that want to deride pagans and not give them a 'superior' status by deriding these pagan rituals as "customs".



"Eid and Ramzan were old Arab customs many centuries before The Prophet."

True. but they were NOT merely "Customs" . The 40 day fasting in Hira caves as the result of which Mohammad gained revelations was a Pagan ritual and part of their religion. It was NOT a "custom" without any spiritual basis.

"Diwali, Holi, Naoroz, Passover, etc., were honest celebrations of spring, autumn or seasonal harvests and the religious fairy tales associated with them were charming additions of later times."

Again, wrong. These seasons are part of "spiritual" religion of the pagans and signify the beginning and end of sacred time periods in an year.
The Navratris , for example, are sacred months when the Sushumana Nadi of humans is the most active and it can open up spiritual revelations with sadhana. That is why these spiritual months are celebrated. Diwali is NOT a "custom" for lightning Diyas. Murad , you only see the externalities like an ignorant Rakshasa. Diwali is a sacred time for various Sadhanas - especially for praying to the Lakshmi Devi. You have no idea about Hindu religion.

you bookish knowledge about hindu thought is just laughable!!

As 4 pinku, jayp, laddu or guru, I dont read their posts. They dont have anything to 'argue' or reason. They just come & vomit/c&p.
V

Islam became dangerous after America revived jihad in Afghanistan. Prolly global Islamic movement got shot of boost when US wlly nilly gave rise to Khomeinism....

Now u got to see the village societies where ppl dont have political opinions. They all live without any trace of conflict (personal conflicts may be there).

Every religion is evil. Look at Christianity. They r responsible for millions of deaths. Islam is no different. Whereas Christian supremacists operate thru modern institutions. Islamic supemacists operate outta jungles & mountains.

Look at Hindu supremacists. They never existed b4 but they do now. Which part of Hindu supremacist topic u want to discuss?
V

Re: # 3
I do know....
Anyhow, this is easiest way to express, what Pinku has written in the earlier post....same sh** to hide islamic barbarism in India....

2 NK,

U dont seem 2 know anything other than sucking a cow?


V

This arab slave again!!!!!!

It seems to have appeared again. I remember commenting on this article earlier??


Ok let's start again.

Generalization is good thing to understand similarity of things but not their complete understaiding.

It is degree that matters. Neither all religions were same in the begining nor they got equallly corrupted.

So it is a deception to hide behind this generalization to pretend that all religions are equally good or bad.

They aren't, some are more bad than others.

It is also deceptive to suggest that all religions have given similar good thoughts or bad thoughts. Some have given remarkably better ideas compared to others. Some have given remarkably bad ideas compared to others. Over the time they got influenced by each other, but the difference is still quite easy to see.