Dr Afia Siddiqui's Case

The article is so true and i praise the genius ans sensitivity of the writer Yes we can not brush aside all the atrocities!
hope everyone can recognise the grim situation and___'Do' something abt it as well!

#43 masadi:

Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance --George Bernard Shaw

Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a last week.

CIA mike writes "Faisal.K:

We need more Pak patriots like you to stop this madness"

We do not need fanatics like Faisal K that outdo the fanatics of the mullah variety in the destruction they cause. I understand that you CIA freaks want to escalate the problem on our borders and want through your methodology to mainstream the mullah and these morons like Faisal K are the "useful idiots" (like Musharraf) that you want to use to destroy our nation, but believe me there are those in that country who will make you and your goddamned moronic imperialism fail, and fail it will.

You call this intelligence or patriotism Faisal K writes "
We can cry bloody murder all we want for what happened to Afia but even today militants hurled grenades into a mosque during taravih."

A prime example of using unrelated events mixed with illogical emotionally charged connections to justify injustice. Tahmed sahib, salam and greetings of peace, search your conscience before you write supportive naats regarding the CIA mike and this moron Faisal K.

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

#40 Mike: We already have enough Pakistanis patriots like Faisal - the ones who voted the puppetmeister musharraf along with this puppets (the mullahs and corrupt politicans) out of power (the national assembly was stuffed with bearded men under musharraf's "guided elections" e.g., and those were all booted out by the Pakistani people).

What we could use more of is people in the Bush Administration capable of understanding the importance of the lawyer's movement in Pakistan (something the lawyer community all across the US has understood and supported).

Faisal.K: Good point.

So Pakistanis have to fight a two-front battle. First with the puppets (afia and co) and then with the puppetmeisters (rogue generals zia and musharraf, one of whom gave mullahs teeth and the other covered their ass in fata while pretending to be fighting them).

The only way to fight this difficult battle is to be internally strong by having the rule of law in place. In that case, each terrorist action would be properly investigated (using modern forensic tools which I have no doubt the US and other potential targets outside Pakistan of the terrorists would be glad to provide), and the culprits brought to justice.

With Zardari's sabotage of the lawyer's movement for an independant judiciary, I think this battle has remains almost as confused as it was under musharraf. By "disappearing" afia along with her young children for 5 years, her legitimate rights (even suspects and criminals have rights in a lawful society!!) have been trampled over - and thus, a common criminal has been turned into a political figure. (if this para. sounds confusing, it merely reflects the realities that we need to understand in Pakistan if we are to win this two-front battle).

Faisal.K:

We need more Pak patriots like you to stop this madness.

We can cry bloody murder all we want for what happened to Afia but even today militants hurled grenades into a mosque during taravih. People are dying every day in our country!! Who is going to answer for their deaths? Is it worth saying b.s words and playing knights to our sister in plight when she might have been one of those responsible for perpetrating this madness in our lives? Think long and hard before jumping the gun people.

Author,

You want powerful folks to become accountable to the average Joe?

Like the senior madame in "Umrao Jaan" said...

Gadha ghaas se dosti karega...
Toe khayega kya?

#27 contd...

to be prophet and treat same way like the tribals of FATA. If Pakistan wants to de-islamise, it should start from teh capital itself.

I will pick up some bad example in India too. VHP activist Dr. Praveen Togadia, who is very instrumental in making the tribals of Gujrat and MP "Hindooooo"....

#27 Ahmed...
This is the reason, muslim countries don't support Pakistan when India-Pakistan matter related to J & K is concerned...
In one hand, you are asking for freedom for Kashmir moslems, where they have every right a democratic setup can offer and you are supporting Chinese regime in Xinjiang, who are flooding Han Chinese to change the demographic pattern in Xinxiang...

Majumder,
It is very difficult to revert back to civilisation for the people of FATA. When you see Red Mosque kind of stuff in the heart of capital, what do you expect from the rest of Pakistan? Something civilised!!! Arab slavery and resultant barbarism deeply rooted in these areas for centuries. Even you set up school and colleges, how will you wipe out the slavery? These people are fighting in the name of mideaval arab beduine, which these so called "enlightened" Pakistanis believe.

Re: # 34
....do come in swings ...

apologies

Re: # 33; majumdar

it only took ONE generation under Zia to get us where we are now .... so, unless the process starts with some sincerity, nothing would happen .... ever!

second thing is, the brotherhood were crushed in early 1980s ... its been more than 2 decades and generally Syrinas are quite happy with their 'improved life-styles' brought about by less Islam in their outlooks overall!

and yes I agree, these things do come have swings and roundabouts ... but you can't expect a humble cogwheel such as myself to eliminate religion!! I'd like to, but unfortunately some 'weaker souls' do need their fairytales to help them sleep at night! .... I am speaking of 'containing' this monster ... at least in our lifetime

Cheema sahib,

The kind of change that you seek while good takes generation, sometimes even centuries. If you want to compress them into a five year plan, you risk bloodshed on an immense scale eg Russia, China, Afghanistan. And there is no guarantee that at the end of the day you will get a "good product"

As far as Syria is considered, Muslim brotherhood maybe crushed for now but there is no knowing what would happen a generation hence. Remember that Islam had been similarly crushed in the 5 stans of CA between 1918-1990.

Regards

Regards

Re: # 30; rabia

unfortunately chowk is a forum where a 'select few' "English-speaking" Pakistanis, with the help of expats of similar backgrounds, discuss matters they have very little insight in. They claim to represent them somehow when the reality on the ground is very different ..... it is reminiscent of many of our Oxford/Cambridge/Harvard educated leaders ... who have nothing in common with the masses, yet feel qualified to render solutions at the drop of a hat

and the Hafiz Asad solution did work!! Long live the name of a TRUE "Ameer-ul-Momineen" of his times!!

Re: # 29; majumdar sahib

I made good friends with someone in Sydney recently ... he is from that part of the world and until his arrival in Australia lived in a 'compound' his family/extended fam shared! ... managed to get away based upon some uni education/scholarship etc .... anyhow, what he said was that it was not until he arrived in a completely different culture (the west) that he knew anything about how the outside world lived! and this is from a uni educated person.

Needless to say, he wasn't even exposed to any "alternative" viewpoint until then .... now that he is, he feels and thinks very differently ... after having analysed the 'issues' from a distance for a few years .... that is the tragedy sir!

people in that part are only ever given the one option .... as for the alternative, they know nothing about ... irony is, this is regarded as the "people's will"!! how can it be when they have no decent opportunities for education, interaction with others, drinking/running water and "knowledge"; by knowledge I don't mean what one learns at school/uni but an "insight" into what life is about and what different options they may have .... this is taken to be "their life-style" that has to be maintained at all cost!! ... and that is called "their proud culture"; what's to be proud of in that exactly? ... just saying I am proud of something about myself doesn't add any substance to that pride!

please I urge all to give some consideration to the millions of suffering souls ... who'll continue to suffer ... be it in the hands of the Pakistanis, Americans, Taliban and whoever else ..... a complete turn around is required and in this process the Pakistanis have to play their part to set things right and not make them worse ... also, I strongly believe that without the basic know-how of what the various options there are available in the world, the so-called facade of democracy cannot and will not work in Pakistan ... people have become, rightly or wrongly,... sigle-minded in their thinking .... it has become the cultural norm to "blame the other" for one's shortcomings .... we either sort this menatlity out or perish as anything of significance in history ... simple!

majumdar: I think tahmed32 wants the pakistani army with the US danda behind it to take care of the problem. akcheema wants to go for the hafiz assad solution (the syrian army wiped out the muslim brotherhood in Syria in the 80s with measures like collective punishment of entire villages, and very civilian-targetted bombings). I'm not exactly sure what they're arguing about, to be honest.

Tahmed and Cheema sahibs,

So what is your recommendation wrt NWFP/FATA? That they revert to "civilised" ways. But what if they don't? What is your reco then? That they should go?

Regards

Tahmed and Cheema sahibs,

So what is your recommendation wrt NWFP/FATA? That they revert to "civilised" ways. But what if they don't? What is your reco then? That they should go?

Regards

Mr. Mike Please do not try to spoil best relationship between Pakistan and China. All Pakistanis are against terror activities carried in China it does not matter religion. In this aspects anti terrorist attitude of both "peoples- china and pakistanis" is above even religion as Terrorism is antiislamic and also antisocialist..

cheema sahib #24 thanks for the apology. now we can talk. :-)

I think I already explained why I found the comparison of my mother-in-law setting rules (and in the process giving good advice to a servant who had produced almost as many kids as Palin in just 4 years!) to massacres committed by a dictator to be absurd. Please think about this a minute, and you will I am sure also understand why I found this comparison to be insulting.

PS: I must admit clicking back to chowk to look for your response when i should have been doing some work before going to bed.

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?"

Rodney Glen King .. On May 1, 1992, the third day of the L.A riots

Re: # 22; tahmed

you openly cited that example here on chowk sir and I am not sure why you are so distressed .... but if I caused some offence unwittingly, I apologise unreservedly .... it was not my intention and the example was quoted in all sincerity

#20 i hope you meant this argument for decapitating your patients (which is what it is under all the medical lingo) in an attempt to be funny, and are not really insane.

cheema sahib #21 i see you are not man enough to apologize for your insane comparison of my relation's perfectly reasonable behavior with that of a murderous dictator!

instead, you chose to stick with your absurd comparison. so let me ask you this: where did you read me as saying or even implying that anyone breaking the rules of society should not be brought to court? in fact i have been arguing the opposite in my posts below!!

(i was going to end this useless exchange with you per my post below, but thought i should clarify this before i switch to doing something useful).

Re: # 19; tahmed
[[my mother-in-law was fully within her rights in laying down the rules for anyone seeking to live under the roof of her house]]

same applies to these morons sir ..... they live under some "roofs" too!

.... and when the "migraine" is a result of "sepsis" from a mangled and devascularised limb, amputation is a perfectly legitimate and widely accepted treatment .... to preserve the vital organs, not to mention save the "organism"'s life!!

cheema sahib: that is an absurd post, with no bearing on what i wrote. since you have chosen unfortunately to make this personal by dragging in my mother-in-law without knowing what you are talking about, let me just say this: my mother-in-law was fully within her rights in laying down the rules for anyone seeking to live under the roof of her house. And in no way does this good advice to the servant (who in fact treats this gentle lady with the same respect and affection as I do) in way a comparison to the murders of thousands of innocent people committed by Asad.

Last post to you on this subject. Have a good night, sir.

Re: # 17; tahmed sahib,

we could keep talking "till the cows come home", but please also read my responses to you elsewhere on FP; it all forms a part of a continuum, so don't "get ahead of yourself" or "get the proverbial knickers in the twist"!

this "problem" is getting out of control through "our" self-inflicted "senstivities" acquired by our geographical residence in the affluent west .... back home, it is a different story and you know it sir! .... same as your example of your mother-in-law "threatening" her servant out of the residential quarters should they not consider the virtues of "family planning"! now you wouldn't think of something like THAT where you live now, would you?? ...... different psychology I am afraid.

.... desparate times, desparate measures and all that ..

Khuda Hafiz

#16 cheema sahib: you can get omelette by breaking eggs, but you kill the baby if you toss him out with the bathwater (to mix metaphors).

The baby being people's basic rights (e.g. the right to not be "disappeared" along with her kids, as in case of Afia Siddiqui, or the right not to be massacred by one's own government as in case of Syria) and the bathwater being "political islam" (e.g. al qaeda criminals).

To mix metaphors some more - as a doctor, you dont behead your patients in order to cure their migrane headache. Similarly, you dont take away basic rights in society in order to deal with criminals.

Re: # 15; tahmed sahib

"political Islam" as we know it, and "Ikhwaan-ul-muslimoon" in particular have been completely impotent and basically all but dead in Syria since the 1980s .... big achievement I reckon!

Unfortunately, One can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs!

Take care for now sir

Cheema sahib #13 Greetings. I think we are in agreement on this important point (and my post #14 below) describes more fully where I am coming from on this very relevant quote from the prophet muhammed himself.

The only place I disagree with your post is on Hafiz Asad - the fact that he killed thousands of Syrians should be a red flag that he was doing something wrong, not that he was doing something right. Despite their superficial differences, the fact is that religious terrorists and "secular" dictators are both driven by the same goal - namely, to gain political control for themselves.

Mike #11 I tried using that link, but it seems to have a problem. So thanks for summarizing it.

No doubt that religion (any religion) is not subject to curbs in China that are in sharp contrast to the freedom to practice religion within the limit of the law in the US and UK. However, it does not necessarily follow that this suppression will create real terrorist threats as you think (e.g. case of Turkey's banning of hijab in government jobs), just as the reverse is not true either (e.g. abuse of religious freedoms in UK by clerics resulting in terrorist acts by their "students").

The fact is that God does not need mosques or churches - priests do, since this is their "office". God does not need prayer (since he needs neither flattery nor advice on how to do his job), priests and mullahs do do. God does not have a need to divide people into different religious groups (and this respect for all religions, and appeals to mankind to not get into arguments over religious matters, is mentioned on several occassions in the Quran), but priests and mullahs do.

So - per the quote from the prophet muhammed below, keep an eye on what the Chinese are doing when they curb forms of religious expression that are driven less by peity than by priestly ambitions. They may be on to something.

Thanks for the good wishes on ramzan. And may peace be upon you as well.

Re: # 10; tahmed sahib
[[as the prophet said "Educate yourself by going to China if necessary".]]

Well said tahmed. and I agree with hamidm sahib on this too; this is the only solution for this menace. The level of appeasement and 'political correctness' has gone out of the way in the west to 'accommodate' the sensitivities of these morons and a complete u-tern on that is immediately required. Same goes for the 'tribals' in Pakistan. All through Pakistani history, they have been allowed to have their own "freedom" within the constitution; they are a "part of Pakistan, yet not" ... at the same time! This simply is unsustainable unless we grant them complete "independence"! No half-hearted measures .... this nuissance needs to be eliminated with a great deal of urgency for the whole country to move forward. No apologies, no pre-conditions, no settlements ...swift "justice" that they so seem to crave!

We need another Hafiz Asad in the Islamic world!

#11 Posted by tahmed32

I posted the NYT link regarding Chinese practice of suppressing religious freedom of Uighur Muslims in name of fighting terrorism to give Chowk readers opportunity to read the whole article. I think Chinese state terrorism against religious/ethic minorities will create more real religious terrorist. Chinese communists have been suppressing Tibetans, Christian, Muslims and many other groups which pose real or imaginary threat to their power.

I post links/article only from mainstream US and Pakistan media. I never post links/articles from hate sites. I do not participate in religious/ethnic name calling and insults.
I know the holy month of Ramadan is period of peace, reflection and giving. Happy Ramadan and peace to mankind.

Mike: ramzan is fasting, and that has been around centuries before 9/11. So...sruprise..fasting does not cause terrorism (which christians do too). or are you saying that it is OK for China to curb all forms of religious expression (including Christianity)?

#9 hamidm: as the prophet said "Educate yourself by going to China if necessary". :-)

# 8 here is how you fight terrorism
Ramadan Curbs Imposed in China
New York Times September 9, 2008

By Edward Wong

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/world/asia/09china.html?hp

here is how you fight terrorism :

BEIJING — Local governments in a Muslim desert region in western China have imposed strict limits on religious practices during the traditional Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, which began last week, according to the Web sites of four of those governments.

The rules include prohibiting women from wearing veils and men from growing beards, as well as barring government officials from observing Ramadan. One town, Yingmaili, requires that local officials check up on mosques at least twice a week during Ramadan.

Re: # 5

one extreme to another :)
but its good that all the voices are heard.

#5
hamidm2, you are equal opportunity offender. I like it.

Let call spade a spade. Stupidity, ignorance and superstitions do not recognize regional, political and religious boundaries

..... the chinese have the right approach to dealing with terrorists like ms aafia ...... last week they hung three jihadis accused of being part of the bombing a couple of days before the olympics .... then they posted their pictures with crosses across their faces .... they have arrested another fifty or so islamists and i am sure they will be dispatched to heaven to play with virgins ..... chinastan is being nipped in the bus as it should be .....

.... ms aafis should have been dealt with within weeks of her capture ....hopefully she will not be let off like the girls of jamia hafsa to go on and breed suiciders and homiciders that will grow up to kill innocent people .....

Why don't put pressure on your local MP's and send official delegates to US to talk to the right people? what's the point spreading anger and frustration and encouraging extremism?! Innocent always suffer in Pakistan, most of the time by Pakistanis and sometimes by their closest ally USA. Not suggesting that Dr Afia is innocent as only a fair trial can prove that.

Re: # 2

hmmm .... may be "something IS rotten in the state of Denmark" ??!

Aafia Siddiqui’s husband in Guantanamo
Monday, September 08, 2008

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Ammar Al Balochi, who, all accounts suggest, is Dr Aafia Siddiqui’s second and current husband, is in Guantanamo, facing trial by a military tribunal on terrorism-related charges.
There were six Pakistanis left at the United Sataes detention facility, one of whom, Qari Muhammad Saeed Iqbal, was repatriated to Pakistan recently and is now undergoing debriefing by the authorities at home. The other four still have to get their fate decided. Their names are, Majid Khan, a taxi driver from Baltimore, Abdul Rabbani, Ahmed Ghulam Rabbani and Saifullah Paracha.
An eight-member delegation of Pakistani senators led by Mushahid Hussain is expected to arrive here at the end of this month for a short visit to Guantanamo.
US authorities do not permit anyone to meet or even see the detainees. All the visitors are shown are some of the prisons where these men are being kept, as well as kitchens and medical facilities. However, they are briefed by officials in charge of the vast prison built from scratch after the first prisoners were brought here from Afghanistan and elsewhere following the invasion of Afghanistan in the aftermath of 9/11.

Sadiq saab,

Good that you want an enquirey. But the military men who pocketed the money on her head given by the yanks will not want to return it.

Do not pretend to be a rip van winkle, you know pakistan, and they will do anything for money. They created the jihadis for money, now they are killing their own for money. What si teh big deal about one woman when thousands are being slaugtered by the muslim soldiers in FATA.

Have some sense of realism. Do you want an enquiry into FATA killings as well. Or do you mean that killings by the yanks are bad, the good paki muslim soldiers are OK.

Grow up, and face the reality of pakistan.