US Commando Strike in Waziristan

WAR FOR TERROR MOTIVES by FM Shah

“There is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things.�
NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI

US initial official motive of WAR FOR TERROR was bringing evil forces like Al-Qaeada and master minds of 9/11 to justice. This motive was later on changed to fight for democracy and liberty against dark forces of Taliban and extremism. USA critics have stated various motives of WAR FOR TERROR which vary from Iraq/Afghanistan occupation, sectarian/regional violence, oil monopoly, denuclearization of Pakistan, map redrawing of Pakistan and clash of civilization. However WAR FOR TERROR architects will try their best to conceal the real motives till final conclusion and achievements of their objectives. At the same time, Pakistan state and its establishment has tailored US official version WAR FOR TERROR for its own interests. These interests vary from economic aid, military hardware, legitimacy and opportunities for corruption loot/plunder, dealing with iron hand to any political, economic issues, crisis or rival.
US banks and financial markets during last century have been designed and structured around cycles of wars, chaos and violence across the globe away from US mainland. Starting with WW I (initiated by Non-state agents), each US recession/depression alternate with some war in some other part of the world away from US main land. USA during last century planned thoroughly and laid the necessary groundwork for the growth of the most powerful defense/aerospace industry worth trillion dollars. As a result if we sum up today technological might of US, it includes only Banking/Finance, IT and Defense/Aerospace Industry. In these industries US firms have monopoly and do not have ant parallel/equal competitor in whole world (including G8 countries). Each war, conflict or crisis creates direct consumption for US defense/aerospace industry. Each war/crisis is followed by construction and public work, which is mostly done by US firms/cartels. Examples are Europe (after WW II) and Iraq reconstruction recently. Each war, conflict and map redrawing has created new US dependant states. Examples are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Saudi Arabia is depended on USA for last seven decades for all external and internal threats. Pakistan during its existence for last six decades is dependant on USA for military hardware and financial aid due to similar on going wars, crisis and breeding violence across its Western and Eastern borders. Wars, crisis and violence also create favorable and monopolistic business/trade conditions for most of US firms and MNCs. Similarly wars, violence and crisis also result flow of capital from whole globe to US main land, which has remained safe from any war, violence and crisis during last century. Whereas US has been remained direct/indirect sponsor and actor in each war, violence and crisis during last one century. Therefore wars act as agents for pulling US economy out of recession due to enhanced public spending, reconstruction work after war and preferential monopolies over trade/resource. Transparency international Bribe payers index 2002, ranks defence industry as the 2nd most corrupt business sector- just ahead of oil and gas sector but behind the public works and construction sectors. On domestic front, wars also divert attention from structural flaws in US economic/financial system. Unemployment and inflation in US reached record heights during great depression of 1930s. Great depression was followed by World War II (in 1940s). Similarly in economic recession, US embarked wars and adventures away from main land like Korean, Vietnam and Kuwait Wars. (For relationship between US economic depression and Wars, kindly refer to Fig 4.4 Page 73 & Fig 6.6 Page 116. The Economy Today-8th Edition by Professor Bradley Schiller).
Oil is traded in dollars and most of the Arab oil dollars are saved in US banks considered to be safe havens. WAR FOR TERROR resulted turmoil and chaos in Arab countries, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This turmoil escalated oil and commodities prices exponentially during last several years. Hence WAR FOR TERROR was indispensable and crucial bailout package for US Banks and Financial Markets. As an example Pakistan oil import bill was US $ 2 Billion in 2000 whereas in 2007 Pakistan oil import bill shoot upto US $ 12 Billion. So in this way additional US $ 10 Billion were diverted to US Banks and financial markets through Arabs from Pakistan economy. Just consider oil import for whole world and billions/trillions US $ directed from the whole globe toward US banks due to escalating oil prices. Without WAR FOR TERROR and oil price escalation US Banks and Financial Markets would have been failed much earlier than 2008. Moreover required bailout package would have been much greater than US $ 700 Billion. Recent decline in oil prices after US bank bailout package also give an idea about structural flaw in US banking/financial markets and its dependency on oil dollars. At domestic front, fear environment of WAR FOR TERROR also made US $ 700 billion unobjectionable to US Taxpayers. Similarly after Arab-Isreal 1973 and Kuwait War oil prices escalated, which helped US banking systems and financial markets. WAR FOR TERROR regional turmoil had also resulted drag on US rival economies of China, Russia, India, Arab and Iran. These countries are almost half of the globe. As US economy was unable to remain competitive and correct its own structural gaps. Therefore WAR FOR TERROR was initiated for restricting and limiting US rival economies growth. Hence the basic motivation of WAR FOR TERROR is chaos and anarchy in the whole globe through Islam and Muslim regions which are safest, vulnerable and easiest targets for US. Other various factors ranging from Al-Qaeada, Taliban, extremism, violence, oil monopoly, denuclearization of Pakistan, map redrawing of Pakistan and civilization clash are not root causes of WAR FOR TERROR rather these all are natural outcome/effects of the WAR FOR TERROR. Therefore these are secondary in nature and mostly misleading. As an example if there is car accident due to brake failure. After accident wind screen, complete body and wheel steering system are damaged. Now in this case wheel steering system is not the root cause rather it is affect of the occurrence.
Pakistan political, defense decision makers’ and military commanders committed suicide by joining US WAR FOR TERROR for saving Pakistan from direct US confrontation and carpet bombing. PPP political leadership in Islamabad is claiming that during last seven years, WAR FOR TERROR has become Pakistan war for state survival. These claims, doubts, fears, conspiracies and assertions have been debated at multiple levels in Media, parliament and mass level. Various explanations, justifications, motives and reasons are presented for WAR FOR TERROR. Disinformation/disorientation campaigns for local/international establishment agenda has increased exponentially during recent times. Such disinformation/disorientation campaigns are paid, sponsored and engineered by local/international establishment for creating justification of ethnic cleansing of Tribal Pathans on one hand by Army and other side by US Drones. Pakistani press/electronic media like establishment considers/present themselves as CHAMPIONS OF TRUTH, DEMOCRASY, and JUSTICE. Various anchors pretend asking tough/hard questions and saving Pakistan from Western/India. However media at best are manipulating and comprising the truth by showing half picture of crisis. Most of the time media avoid context and conceal motives of the ongoing crisis and chaos in Pakistan. Media can never tip-toe out of the false perception minefield that they have allowed themselves to be lured into by the CIA, Pakistani ruling establishment and architects of WAR FOR TERROR. TV Anchors most of the times are bounded by policy, life threats, job fears, temptations, easy going attitude, incompetence and lack of quality research on social science. Any TV channel prime motivation is money, revenue, coverage, ads and sponsors not truth. As an example, Media have never been able to ask simple questions about worst case scenario if Pakistan is invaded by US just like Iraq/Afghanistan. Are there any war plans for such worst case scenario? Will Pakistanis suffer same fate of Abu Gharaib and Bagram Jail? Avoiding confrontation with US is understood, however it does not exempt Pakistan State and Armed Forces from preparing War Plans for emerging war threat similar to Iraq/Afghan. In 1990s, none in whole Islamic world could imagine about possible US occupation of Afghanistan. However it is almost impossible to fight two wars simultaneously, thousands miles away from mainland, without military and strategic planning spanning over decades. One of best known example is 1967 Arab-Israel War. Israel Air Forces were practicing offensive air operation against Arab since 1957 for almost 12 years. Whereas Arab Media and their puppet leadership were sleeping like prostitutes.
Now question arise will dramas similar to so called terrorism 9/11 and weapon of mass destruction be staged for invading other countries. Will US invade Pakistan or sponsor civil war in Pakistan. Has India committed suicidal mistake like Pakistan (in September 2001) by joining WAR FOR TERROR for settling scores against Pakistan? Will India be able to pull out itself toward safe/straight policy of Iran or Turkey by not sponsoring civil war along its 1800 KMs long border alongwith Pakistan? These are hard and tough question. It is not possible to precisely answers in white and black. Nonetheless temporary failures/setbacks in Afghanistan or Iraq may only delay US aggressive plans against Pakistan. Pakistan and whole regional actors overall interests should provide the framework for rethinking about evolving philosophy of war and changing enemy/threat perception. Pakistan should prevent conflict/war with US or India as a strategic priority since this would allow concentrating more on socio-economic development.

If you know the enemy and know your self, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle. SUN TZU
Pakistan war plans, threat perception, security policy and defense doctrine have been revolving around India as traditional enemy during last fifty years. It was based on two pronged policy of conventional military buildup and nuclear deterrence. However past fifty years Pakistan conventional threat perception is incompatible with evolving war philosophy and battle planning after 9/11. Iraq and Afghanistan have totally changed war initiation patterns and rules of engagements between various states and non-state actors. Therefore in short term, Pakistan as deterrence should adopt a simple war strategy of Guerilla Warfare for responding to any US design for expanding WAR FOR TERROR into Pakistan. Pakistan have to revamp all its war games/plans accordingly. In long term Pakistan has to gear up its defense policies and boost air power as future wars initiated by hypothetical non state actors will be exclusively between asymmetrical adversaries. This fear of facing US will not only boost our national integrity but in long term it will also add new dimensions and life to our defense industry in private sector and self indigenization. Perception of strong enemy means strong commitments for nation survival and history is full of example where nations excelled only due to fear of some strong enemies just. Further it will send a new form of message to super powers and their policy makers while planning invasion on Pakistan. It will delay any possible aggressive plans against Pakistan. Germans after humiliating defeat and strict restrictions on Defence/Aviation industry as result of WWW I were able to raise quite effective/capable Defence/air power during WWW II supported by its aviation industry based in private sector within short span of 5 to 7 years only. The same engineering and technological base is still helping German industries, which are best in the world. By capturing of only 2 % of world aircraft/Defence market, Pakistan will have foreign exchange worth billions, create thousands jobs and make us self reliant in Arms Power capabilities. After capturing 2 % of the Defence world market, we will not need IMF, World Bank or conquering music, dance and film industry.

The purpose of the article was to discuss the WAR FOR TERROR and options for Pakistan Defence. This discussion is important, most critical, to the future of Pakistan and whole region. It should be reiterated that this is not intended to be a stand-alone study. Rather, these comments and suggestions are meant as a contribution to the continuous work of a doctrine and in particular to respond to evolving philosophy of war and new threat perspective for Pakistan and whole region in terms of economy and security. As such, while the article seeks to highlight issues that were considered to be of the most importance, there is no pretence towards comprehensiveness or detail. However, while it is not possible to get into the nitty gritty of every particular suggestion, attempt were made to define options and solutions at level of detail that underscores the practicality of the suggestion. However, it should be stressed that most important element are the broad directional changes recommended in the article.

In peace prepare for war, in war prepare for peace. The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected. SUN TZU

Various explanations, justifications, motives and reasons are presented for WAR FOR TERROR. US stated official motive of WAR FOR TERROR is fight against Al-Qaeada, Taliban and extremism. Many corrupt/de-facto colonial third world countries like Pakistan and Indian governments and establishment always tailor US official version WAR FOR TERROR for its own interests. These interests vary from economic aid, military hardware, legitimacy and open liberty for dealing with iron hand to any political, economic issues, crisis or rival.
Al-Qaida is the top secret code name of special covert operations of the U.S. CIA, Israeli Mossad, British SIS, Indian RAW and Pakistani ISI. Al-Qaida is a fake name, an imaginary illusion, a deceptive fraud, a fictitious hoax and a fraudulent scam of the unlawful war for terror, which is still being cunningly and clandestinely supported and promoted by the CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW, ISI and the Corrupt Mercenary Media (CMM) to frame, blame, defame, harm and kill innocents Pakistanis, Kashmiris, Indians, Afghans, Arabs, Muslims/Hindus and other innocent humans by falsely and maliciously labeling them as the Al-Qaida militants, extremists, or terrorists. Actually, Al-Qaida or Al-CIA-da is the CIA. Al-Qaida is the Mossad. Al-Qaida is the SIS. Al-Qaida is the RAW. Al-Qaida is the ISI. Al-Qaida is the CMM. The CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW, ISI and the CMM are the real Al-Qaida or 'the Evil 6'. For the sake of international peace, reform or abolish the CIA, Mossad, SIS, RAW and the ISI; oppose and expose the CMM; and end the illegal war of terror now to reduce global terrorism. Indeed, imperialistic military occupation of any country, state, or nation is state terrorism. Civil terror is a natural reaction to government terror."
Al Qaeda and Taliban is an “imaginary force� created by CIA, through which third world countries like Pakistan and Indian governments, ruling elite and establishment interest converge with USA. Pakistan state, military/political ruling elite and establishment have been trapped and addicted to US dollars/support for last fifty seven years. These dollars are shifted to safe havens of same Western Banks, from where these dollars started journey. Hence it’s a zero sum game for Western economic system. It is for the same reason various crises in third world countries are created for commissions and omissions. Third world countries like Pakistan and Indian ruling establishment and state composes of various political, army, economic, business feudal, bureaucratic, metropolis cartels controlling/manipulating various financial and power hubs in like Bombay, Karachi, Lahore and Delhi (all British era colonial metropolis). Rest all masses (99 %) are non state agent and actors. These masses are typical mouse from Mumbai and Karachi. In the local train compartment which has capacity of 100 persons, these mouse travel with 500 more mouse. Mouse at least squeak but they don't even do that.

Pakistani and Indian ruling establishment have been using wild cards like Al Qaeda, Taliban, Sectarian, Ethnic Violence to their advantage. Whenever CIA or Pakistani or Indian ruling establishment wants to kill people or target someone, they send in an Al Qaeda or Taliban cut-out to start the cycle of violence. Disinformation/disorientation campaigns for local/international establishment agenda has increased exponentially during recent times. Such disinformation/disorientation campaigns are paid, sponsored and engineered by local/international establishment for creating justification for military actions, extreme brute measure and corrupt practices. the Corrupt Mercenary Media (CMM) present themselves as CHAMPIONS OF TRUTH, DEMOCRASY, and JUSTICE. Various writers and anchors pretend asking tough/hard questions and saving world from war, extremism. However media at best are manipulating and comprising the truth by showing half picture of crisis. Most of the time media avoid context and conceal motives of the ongoing crisis and chaos in India, Pakistan and whole Muslim world. Media will never tip-toe out of the false perception minefield that they have allowed themselves to be lured into by the CIA, various ruling establishment and architects of WAR FOR TERROR. TV Anchors most of the times are bounded by policy, life threats, job fears, temptations, easy going attitude, incompetence and lack of quality research on social science. Any TV channel prime motivation is money, revenue, coverage, ads and sponsors not truth.


Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD : Mumbai based group of intellectuals and human rights activists
India Daily-Jun. 13, 2007

The Mumbai based group alleged that Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD. "There is enough evidence that the Al-Qaeda is a front organization of the CIA and MOSSAD. The Bush junta has used the bogey of terror and of Al Qaeda to justify his unending and ever expanding Global War on Terror, which is only a means of capturing the resources of the world and of establishing the sole hegemony of Israel in West Asia," said the group of activists and intellectuals. The group is holding a press conference in Mumbai on Wednesday to "expose the links between Al-Qaeda and the CIA-MOSSAD".
Holding American-Israeli operation accomplices of the 9/11 attack on the WTC, the spokesman of the group said that this has been widely written about in USA and Europe itself and more than 50% of the American people and far more Europeans, now believe and are convinced about this fact. He said that sections of the Indian ruling political and military elite are importing the same Bush-Olmert formula into India. "The increasing terror attacks only serve the cause of the Indian elite and divide the masses along communal lines. It is only the ordinary Indians who are the victims of terror either in temples, mosques, buses or trains," he said adding that practically no political leader suffers a similar fate, where the terrorists are apprehended and killed in "encounters".
"Every terror attack is meant to push and drag the Indian masses further into the waiting arms of Uncle Sam and the Israeli Goliath. Every terror attack spreads further hatred for Muslims and Islam and weakens the Indian Muslim community," he said.

Re: # 175
Heard it but without any details, just the mention of new techniques, that's it.

Re#188
If Wajahat Hussain had the time and the desire to find out, he would have seen that the Hindus' plight might have not been any better than that of the Muslims.

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sattar: thanks for your opinions.

hamidm #178 and one more thing - i thought you thought muslims can only be ruled by a dictator. Now you say the US should bestow democracy on iran next. The only explanation seems to be that you have different opinions for different days of the week..like Lady Imelda who had different pairs of shoes for different dates.

since you are wearing your democracy opinion today, here's an idea..maybe Palin could be flown into Iran on her alaskan sled, waving her BA degree and tossing "democracy cookies" to the locals. Iranians will then stand and clap (as Cheney said Iraqis would do).

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#180 second para. "cost scores of lives" should of course be "cost scores of thousands of lives"

hamidm #178: i was hopeful for this outcome ("a megalomanic dictator has been removed and iraq has the first functioning democracy in that region ") that much-misrepresented chowk article that i wrote five years ago. And I had also provided the underlying basis for this silver lining that I saw in the invasion.

However, I had failed to take into account the incredible incompetence of the Bush administration, which failed to provide law and order after Saddam's overthrow, and that in turn cost scores of lives, trillions of dollars, and above all loss of focus on Afghanistan where the snake pit of the perpetrators of 9/11, namely al qaeda was based. Whether or not the outcome will justify the terrible cost is for historians to consider.

All I can say is - I have a good excuse (i.e. no one could have predicted the incredible oversights of the Bush Administration back in 2003). You on the other hand have no such excuse for ignoring that obvious fact and calling for a repeat in Iran of what would at best be a similar pyrrhic victory.

First the US wrestler(or weight lifter) deputy secretary Armitage threatened to bomb Pakistan into stone age, then Obama repeated that threat, now the actual raid into pakistani territory, is something working to plan here?

Re: # 171

et tu, hp ? ........... "US which went in Iraq w/o any provocation and reason?"

..... if there ever was a just war it is the war in iraq ...... it was a day late, a dollar short and the aftermath of a brilliant military victory was poorly executed, but it was a just war never the less ...... a megalomanic dictator has been removed and iraq has the first functioning democracy in that region since muhammad overthrew the legitimate government in mecca ...... it is still work in progress, but we have come a long way baby ! ......... next, iran ...... the civilized world cannot afford to wait while crazy dictators and mad mullahs tinker with nukes that will threaten mankind sooner or later ......

..... hp, stop whining and support your troops who will be in that region for the next fifty years .... we have to fulfill our manifest destiny

#176 akcheema

They might be top secret from US point of view but some of these techniques might be in use in Pakistan by US special forces? No? Does any one know anything unusual that was not done before to suspects?

Re: # 175; Pardesi
[[so effective (in Iraq/Anbar region) and top secret that he can not talk about it for long long time. Has any one heard about these new techniques?]]

they are "top secret" and you expect someone at Chowk to have heard about them??

Bob Woodword is on TV talk shows these days promoting his new book 'The War Within'.

He claims that US forces have developed "new techniques" to take care of Al Quada leaders and these techniques are so effective (in Iraq/Anbar region) and top secret that he can not talk about it for long long time.

Has any one heard about these new techniques?

Re: # 159

tahmed,

No one is taking your argument that the pakis are voting for mainstream political parties interested in roti...blah blah.

You should also accept that these are the very parties that support and sustain the hoodood, they are the parties that support the terror madrassas,..etc etc.

No one dares to change any of that because the abdul pakis with the dose of TNT and the ilks of you support the extreme islamist views enshrined in hoodood, the very law that prevents samia sarwar murderers being prosecuted, which requires male witnesses for rape.

That is the true pakistanis and you are the true educated pakistani trying to white wash the pak reality.

the americans know since 2004 where haqqani has his base near datta khel....the americans rgularly meet haqqanis brother i kabul in his house in wazir akbar khan behind indira gandhi hospital .....so why this attack now ? its all a hoax...part of the pressure campaign on pakistan....psy war

9 killed in missile strike in Pakistan
Apparent target is said to survive
By Zulfiqar Ali and Laura King
Los Angeles Times / September 9, 2008
PESHAWAR, Pakistan - US forces made an apparently unsuccessful attempt yesterday to assassinate a prominent Taliban-linked commander who sometimes shelters in Pakistan's tribal areas, witnesses and military officials said.

Missiles from a suspected American drone aircraft struck a compound in the insurgent stronghold of North Waziristan, just across the border from Afghanistan, witnesses said. At least nine people were killed. Some reports put the tally as high as 21.

The targeted village, Dande Darba Khel, contained a madrassa, or Islamic seminary, and a family compound associated with the Haqqani clan. A Haqqani-led network of fighters is blamed for a number of high-profile attacks inside Afghanistan this year against Western forces and other targets.

In the past few weeks, the Bush administration has stepped up unilateral strikes against Taliban and Al Qaeda figures in the tribal belt adjoining the Afghan border. Last week, American forces made an unusual ground raid on a village just inside Pakistan, killing up to 20 people but apparently failing to kill any militant leaders.

Associates of the Haqqani clan told Pakistani media that neither Jalaluddin Haqqani nor his son, Sirajuddin, who has largely taken over his command role in the Taliban movement, were present in the village at the time of yesterday's strike. But some other close relatives, including one of Jalaluddin Haqqani's wives, were among the dead, they said.

The elder Haqqani, who is reportedly ailing, made his name as a guerrilla commander during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. He also has longstanding links to Osama bin Laden, whom he is believed to have met in the late 1980s. The dead in yesterday's missile strike included at least three suspected foreign militants, but at least two children and some women were believed killed as well, local officials said.

The Haqqani network is thought to be responsible for attacks including a shooting and bombing assault on a Western hotel in Kabul, an assassination attempt against President Hamid Karzai, and the bombing of the Indian Embassy in the Afghan capital, which killed about 40 people.

changing stories! quite a transition; at first it was Pakistan and it's ISI responsible for the attack on Indian Embassy at Kabul according to the so-called evidence provided by the Allied forces commanders to Pakistan Govt. now it's Haqqani!! what next? Its getting pretty crafty, isn't it?

Pakistan publicly decries US raids on its soil as a violation of its sovereignty, even though its government is thought to tacitly support such unilateral moves on the part of the Americans. A Pakistani military spokesman, Major Murad Khan, confirmed that explosions had taken place yesterday in the area of North Waziristan, but that the cause was not immediately known.

A Pakistani military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the strike had all the hallmarks of an American missile attack carried out with an unmanned Predator drone - strikes that have been carried out with increasing frequency.

do I sit down and see to that justice is done or do I "psych-analyse"

Good point Cheema sahib. But before you finish this could you please suggest some punishment for the US which went in Iraq w/o any provocation and reason?

You wanna cut the heads off in Pakistan and nuke them for their crimes. Fine, let us do it...but what do you suggest for the US? Something similar?

There is no doubt that there are criminals in FATA but not every single resident is criminal and only a fascist can suggest collective punishment for the crimes of a few. I am sure you are not one!

hafiz asad belonged to the alavid sect a sub sect or similar sect of shias like nurbakshi ismaili so when he launched the mass killings in Homs it was eliminating the hard cores in the sunni majority...when the british raised the hazara pioneers a 100 % shia hazara mongol force the british rationale was that since the hazaras then believed that killing any sunni would straight give them a position in paradise( refers brig gen dyers memoirs of leading hazara pioneers against iranian baloch in first world war)....similarly the british successfilly used the 100 % turi shias in kurram against all sunni tribes of pashtuns......but all this is sectarian...the situation in pakistan is far more complex and to compound it has taken an ethnic form...pashtun versus punjabi

Re: # 167 also tahmed

it is clear from that rambling that it is late where you live ... get some rest sir

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 167;tahmed

when a crime is committed, one seeks punishment ... especially when the crime is against a greater good/scoiety on the whole etc ... with me so far?

now suppose someone commits a henious crime against someone I care about ... do I sit down and see to that justice is done or do I "psych-analyse" the criminal .... for all I know, he may have legitinate grievances through his life and his "final act" may have been a cumulative result of a psychology, twisted and torn through the years, and now do I say he "deserves" my compassion and sympathy?? ... think about it before answering .... like I said before, once an adult, we all have our own crosses to bear and own deeds to answer for .... can't keep blaming someone else sir! or worse society at large

Good night sir

#166 cheema sahib: That is an element of truth, but certainly not the whole truth, in the answer you give. Trouble is, it is an answer to a question you yourself put, not the one I asked.

My question to hamidm remains unanswered. You may take a second shot at answering it if you like. Or you may ignore it. But please dont try to deflect the question by making up a question-answer of your own.

Re: # 159; tahmed sahib,

question is, do they openly stand up to these elements?
the answer is NO!
the reasons are complex ... and admittedly not religious but a general dissatisfaction with their lives, and 'tribalistic' affiliations etc .... you'd have to admit, in our culture if one's own 'flesh and blood' were to be associated with this nonsense, one is much less likely to oppose it openly! It becomes a question of personal/tribal prestige and "honour"!

One mustn't forget that these "elements" come from "within" the society itself; they are a representative of a sick society ... at large. And now there are elements who propose a "purely political Islam"" sans the ritualism .... and that becomes even easier to follow for a testosterone ridden youth, who has few other outlets for his hormonal imbalances!

and these are the complex emotions, not to mention "guilt-trips of a religo-political nature" that these elements play to their advantage.

Short of a Hafiz Asad solution, there is none other I am afraid.

Sorry, not in the US

Bubba, youa re right, i am no tin NY. I am in NYC. Our world works very different.

Re: # 161

bubba mian,

... give me a break ! ..... all i want is some temporary relief - as soon as the market hits 14K again i am pulling out and investing in tulip bulbs and life insurance companies catering to suicide bombers

Re: # 157 Posted by chaltahai on September 8, 2008 6:38:14 am

[....You don't change urself with urself, buddhu!]

Obviously you are not in the US, where they sell tons of self-help books on change. It all depends on what kind of change one wants, and who can deliver it. McCain can, and Obama can not.

This is what I got from a friend's e-mail, and it makes perfect sense.

You couldn't get a job at McDonalds and become district manager after 143 days of experience.

You couldn't become chief of surgery after 143 days of experience of being a surgeon.

You couldn't get a job as a teacher and be the superintendent after 143 days of experience.

You couldn't join the military and become a colonel after a 143 days of experience.

You couldn't get a job as a reporter and become the nightly news anchor after 143 days of experience.

BUT....

From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the Senate. That's how many days the Senate was actually in session and working. After 143 days of work experience, Obama believed he was ready to be Commander in Chief, Leader of the Free World, and fill the shoes of Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK and Ronald Reagan. 143 days.

AND, strangely, a large sector of the American public is okay with this and campaigning for him. We wouldn't accept this in our own line of work, yet some are okay with this for the President of the United States of America ? Come on folks, we are not voting for the next American Idol !

Re: # 152 Posted by hamidm2 on September 8, 2008 4:50:03 am

hamid mian,

[..U.S. stock futures jumped more than 2 percent. ]

what huge rally? They lost 3% on Friday Sept. 5, and they can't even recover that loss. Nobody around here considers this as good for the capitalist system. One guy said all we need now is the hammer and sickle. US govt. is wrong to interfere in the real estate market. They tell more hell is yet to come in 1Q09, when the election is long over with.

Re: # 156 Posted by hamidm2 on September 8, 2008 6:20:16 am

hamid mian,

On paki politics, you always seem to lump the kashmiris and punjabi trouble makers into one so-called unwashed masses. Why can't you go much deeper? and identify who are these people?

They are those punjabis who support pml-N, JI and to a certain extent Imran Khan. Personally, I would want them to be completely marginalized in the Punjab government. These people are nothing but trouble for civilized paki population.

punjabi and civilized!!!! is it oxymoron?

hamidm: i am not sure what you mean by the "vast majority of mohammedans in pakistan" support terrorists, when in elections these "vast majority of mohammedans in pakistan" vote for the mainstream parties that promise things like "roti, kapra aur makan" or "rule of the law" and not 72 virgins.

"drill, baby, drill"!! :-)

#157 thanks for your views.

If it wasn't the army....it would have been the feudals. What is this silliness of blaming only 50% of the dysfunctional leadership in the country?

Tahmed yaar, did you read the times magazine article yesterday. The drumbeats are growing all around you, the economy is teetering over an abyss, US is now bombing everyday, the GAO is asking for accounts on the $10B....inflation on soft goods is running rampant....and you are worrying about getting the old judiciary to be re-instated. That is like the republicans saying their candidate is a change agent while they have been running the country for the last 8 year. You don't change urself with urself, buddhu!

Re: # 153

tahmed mian,

.... i partially agree with you ........ the army, isi and the other goons in khaki played their role in strengthening the local taliban but the main culprits are the unwashed masses ..... these unwashed masses, under the influence of the bedouin moon god and brainwashed by the mullah, supported them and still continue to support them ...... the vast majority of the mohammedans in pakistan still support these wild-eyed jihadis and regardless of who is in power, they will have to step very carefully ...... the current policy seems to be hit them, let the americans kill them, deny deny and deny and then call in the american ambassador to the foreign office for samosas and chai ...... it is a good policy and it should work ...

So another day....another bombing by the US in FATA. Are we going to keep this article as a sticky...or will there be new articles every day on each bombing?

second para. should be "The reason they grew in strength during your uncle musharraf's eight years is because they were..surprise!..like poppy plants from musharraf's pov. That is, useful to cultivate in order to collect "revenue" from a clueless bush administration and thus remain in power."

(i.e. the "not" should not be there).

#151 hamidm: you are right that tribesmen's military capacity is highly overrated - not because they are "cowards" (which is a mere generalization that is as meaningless as bulleye's opposite generalizations concerning their superpowers that he is in awe), but because they lack a genuine cause (which in turn translates into broad-based public support) of the kind guerilla movements need in order to succeed.

The reason they grew in strength during your uncle musharraf's eight years is not because they were..surprise!..like poppy plants from musharraf's pov. That is, useful to cultivate in order to collect "revenue" from a clueless bush administration and thus remain in power.

bubba mian,

this is all i was hoping for:

NEW YORK (AP) -- U.S. stock futures pointed to a huge rally Monday as investors rushed to lay bets on a broad economic recovery following the weekend announcement that the U.S. government plans to bail out mortgage lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. U.S. stock futures jumped more than 2 percent.

Re: # 144

alpha mian,

.... the trouble making capabilities of the smelly tribesmen who live in caves and sleep with domestic animals are highly overated ..... they are a primitive people who can manage a few car bombs in pindi and lahore but here is not a whole lot they can do beyond that ..... on top of that they are a bunch of cowards who will turn on their own mother if the tide turns against them ...... if the paki forces was serious about taking care of them they can be wiped out in a couple of months ........ i see this as a great opportunity to exterminate this disease once and for all ..... i still think starting a war with india is the quickest way to get rid of them - that way we can kill two bad birds with one stone

i think that the much publicised sectarian killings in parachinar whose pics are being circulated on the net could be a british intelligence conspiracy to make muslims fight muslims

Arjun 137,

It was very clear that all of the paki bombing raids did not kill any one. They also did not kill nay arabs. Good to see that the Us troops are moving in and the paki bluff is out.

If only they could seek help from India, they need some one to help them out, to take them on the correct path, like south korea for the north.

The day is not very far when the pakis will get hammered by the chinese as well. The jihadis know that well, and that is why they have kidnapped the chinese. Next will be attacks on chinese assets and they know that is the way to make the pak govt to surrender.

Arjun...
Off the topic...After the Paki master (China) failed to prevent the agreement regarding supply of fuel and equipment in NSG, China is demanding similar deal for Pakistan.....

Re: # 82
ahemd...
Can you remember something Richard Armitage, Stone age etc...?

Re: # 134
Arjun...
Marx was quite a decent guy. His theory have the probability of working well within some conditions. Masadi and other islamists try to bring Marx to look the mideaval arab nuicense little decent. Marxism was popular amongst intelligentia in Britain and some section of students in India (JNU and Universities in West Bengal).Jihadi phenomenon of hostility towards USA,Russia and India has nothing to do with Marxism/socialism etc... .It is the 6th century barbaric arab beduinism vs civilisation....

#139 Posted by masadi on September 7, 2008 6:45:49 pm

Are you denying that poverty has gone down in both countries?

Hamid, jokes aside....the next attack from islamist knuckleheads will be manufactured in Fata. And the response is going to be fatal.

Re: # 138

alpha mian,

.... i have been advocating nuking fata, bombing mansoora and akora khattak, spaying the jihadi breeders of jamia hafsa and imposing a tax on beards for a long time .... i am glad to see that i have your support ...... there are only a few hundred thousand of these trouble makers and they can easily be exterminated or re-educated .....

thank you for your support ........

Masadi, I love you :P

Masadi, I love you :P

create alpha writes "I say nuke FATA....na rahay ga baans...myada yada yada"

May what you wish for others befall on you and those you love.

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Arjun writes "Masadi, Marx and the rest of the AIDS(america is doomed syndrome) brigade have been predicting the fall of capitalism...and yet india and china have shown the way forward is capitalism...not marxism or masadism.."

Salam and greetings of peace Arjun sahib. How goes your life? Baal bacha? Raazi Baazi?

India and China have shown what to the world? How poverty can be tucked away under the rug? How advertising your "boom" and becoming peons of the West is the new slavery? or how to separate yourself from the system via nationalism and develop a base and then integrate and let the capitalist system rape you so that its captains, those in America can make smooth transitions out of their misery....way to go India and China...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Pakis are in the situation they are in because of their obsession with India...

This is from the NYT...

wonder how prophet tahmed will spin this...of course, his spin won't stop the pakiwhackers..but it'll be amusing..


Right at the Edge
By DEXTER FILKINS

I: The Border Incident

Late in the afternoon of June 10, during a firefight with Taliban militants along the Afghan-Pakistani border, American soldiers called in airstrikes to beat back the attack. The firefight was taking place right on the border itself, known in military jargon as the “zero line.� Afghanistan was on one side, and the remote Pakistani region known as the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, or FATA, was on the other. The stretch of border was guarded by three Pakistani military posts.

The American bombers did the job, and then some. By the time the fighting ended, the Taliban militants had slipped away, the American unit was safe and 11 Pakistani border guards lay dead. The airstrikes on the Pakistani positions sparked a diplomatic row between the two allies: Pakistan called the incident “unprovoked and cowardly�; American officials regretted what they called a tragic mistake. But even after a joint inquiry by the United States, Pakistan and Afghanistan, it remained unclear why American soldiers had reached the point of calling in airstrikes on soldiers from Pakistan, a critical ally in the war in Afghanistan and the campaign against terrorism.

The mystery, at least part of it, was solved in July by four residents of Suran Dara, a Pakistani village a few hundred yards from the site of the fight. According to two of these villagers, whom I interviewed together with a local reporter, the Americans started calling in airstrikes on the Pakistanis after the latter started shooting at the Americans.

“When the Americans started bombing the Taliban, the Frontier Corps started shooting at the Americans,� we were told by one of Suran Dara’s villagers, who, like the others, spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of being persecuted or killed by the Pakistani government or the Taliban. “They were trying to help the Taliban. And then the American planes bombed the Pakistani post.�

For years, the villagers said, Suran Dara served as a safe haven for jihadist fighters — whether from Afghanistan or Pakistan or other countries — giving them aid and shelter and a place to stash their weapons. With the firefight under way, one of Suran Dara’s villagers dashed across the border into Afghanistan carrying a field radio with a long antenna (the villager called it “a Motorola�) to deliver to the Taliban fighters. He never made it. The man with the Motorola was hit by an American bomb. After the fight, wounded Taliban members were carried into Suran Dara for treatment. “Everyone supports the Taliban on both sides of the border,� one of the villagers we spoke with said.

Later, an American analyst briefed by officials in Washington confirmed the villagers’ account. “There have been dozens of incidents where there have been exchanges of fire,� he said.

That American and Pakistani soldiers are fighting one another along what was meant to be a border between allies highlights the extraordinarily chaotic situation unfolding inside the Pakistani tribal areas, where hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Taliban, along with Al Qaeda and other foreign fighters, enjoy freedom from American attacks.

But the incident also raises one of the more fundamental questions of the long war against Islamic militancy, and one that looms larger as the American position inside Afghanistan deteriorates: Whose side is Pakistan really on?

PAKISTAN’S WILD, LARGELY ungoverned tribal areas have become an untouchable base for Islamic militants to attack Americans and Afghans across the border. Inside the tribal areas, Taliban warlords have taken near-total control, pushing aside the Pakistani government and imposing their draconian form of Islam. And for more than a year now, they have been sending suicide bombers against government and military targets in Pakistan, killing hundreds of people. American and Pakistani investigators say they believe it was Baitullah Mehsud, the strongest of FATA’s Taliban leaders, who dispatched assassins last December to kill Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister. With much of the North-West Frontier Province, which borders the tribal areas, also now under their control, the Taliban are increasingly in a position to threaten the integrity of the Pakistani state.

Then there is Al Qaeda. According to American officials and counterterrorism experts, the organization has rebuilt itself and is using its sanctuaries inside the tribal areas to plan attacks against the United States and Europe. Since 2004, six major terrorist plots against Europe or the United States — including the successful suicide attacks in London that killed 52 people in July 2005 — have been traced back to Pakistan’s tribal areas, according to Bruce Hoffman, a professor of security studies at Georgetown University. Hoffman says he fears that Al Qaeda could be preparing a major attack before the American presidential election. “I’m convinced they are planning something,� he told me.

At the center of all this stands the question of whether Pakistan really wants to control the Talibs and their Qaeda allies ensconced in the tribal areas — and whether it really can.

This was not supposed to be a major worry. After the attacks of Sept. 11, President Pervez Musharraf threw his lot in with the United States. Pakistan has helped track down Al Qaeda suspects, launched a series of attacks against militants inside the tribal areas — a new offensive got under way just weeks ago — and given many assurances of devotion to the antiterrorist cause. For such efforts, Musharraf and the Pakistani government have been paid handsomely, receiving more than $10 billion in American money since 2001.

But as the incident on the Afghan border suggests, little in Pakistan is what it appears. For years, the survival of Pakistan’s military and civilian leaders has depended on a double game: assuring the United States that they were vigorously repressing Islamic militants — and in some cases actually doing so — while simultaneously tolerating and assisting the same militants. From the anti-Soviet fighters of the 1980s and the Taliban of the 1990s to the homegrown militants of today, Pakistan’s leaders have been both public enemies and private friends.

When the game works, it reaps great rewards: billions in aid to boost the Pakistani economy and military and Islamist proxies to extend the government’s reach into Afghanistan and India.

Pakistan’s double game has rested on two premises: that the country’s leaders could keep the militants under control and that they could keep the United States sufficiently placated to keep the money and weapons flowing. But what happens when the game spins out of control? What happens when the militants you have been encouraging grow too strong and set their sights on Pakistan itself? What happens when the bluff no longer works?

II. Being a Warlord

Late in June, to great fanfare, the Pakistani military began what it described as a decisive offensive to rout the Taliban from Khyber agency, one of seven tribal areas that make up the FATA. “Forces Move In on Militants,� declared a headline in Dawn, one of Pakistan’s most influential newspapers. Reporters were kept away, but footage on Pakistani television showed troops advancing behind trucks and troop carriers. The Americans were pleased. “We think that’s a positive development and certainly hope and expect that this government will continue,� Tom Casey, the deputy spokesman at the State Department, said.

The situation was serious indeed: Peshawar, the capital of North-West Frontier Province and just east of Khyber agency, was almost entirely surrounded by Taliban militias, which had begun making forays into the city. The encirclement of Peshawar was the culmination of the Taliban’s advance: first they conquered the tribal areas, then much of the North-West Frontier Province, and now they were aiming for the province’s capital itself. The Talibs were cutting their well-known medieval path: shutting girls’ schools, banishing women from the streets, blowing up CD kiosks and beating barbers for shaving beards.

A few days into the military operation, the photographer Lynsey Addario and I, dressed in traditional clothes and with a posse of gunmen protecting us, rode into Khyber agency ourselves. “Entry by Foreigners Prohibited Beyond This Point,� the sign said on the way in. As we drove past the dun-colored buildings and corrugated-tin shops, every trace of government authority vanished. No policemen, no checkpoints, no guards. Nothing to keep us from our appointment with the Taliban.

It was a Friday afternoon, and our guides suggested we pull off the main road until prayers were over; local Taliban enforcers, they said, would not take kindly to anyone skipping prayers. For a couple of hours we waited inside the home of an uncle of one of our guides, listening to the muezzin call the locals to battle.

“What is the need of the day?� a man implored in Pashto over a loudspeaker. “Holy war — holy war is the need of the day!�

After a couple of hours, we resumed our journey, traveling down a mostly empty road. And that is when it struck me: there was no evidence, anywhere, of the military operation that had made the news. There were no Pakistani soldiers, no trucks, no tanks. Nothing.

After a couple of miles, we turned off the road and headed down a sandy path toward a high-walled compound guarded by young men with guns. I had come to my destination: Takya, the home village of Haji Namdar, a Taliban commander who had taken control of a large swath of Khyber agency.

Pulling into Namdar’s compound, I felt transported back in time to the Kabul of the 1990s, when the Taliban were at their zenith. A group of men and boys — jittery, clutching rifles and rocket-propelled grenades — sat in the bed of a Toyota Hi-Lux, the same model of truck the Taliban used to ride to victory in Afghanistan. A flag nearly identical to that of the Afghan movement — a pair of swords crossed against a white background — fluttered in the heavy air. Even the name of Namdar’s group, the Vice and Virtue brigade, came straight from the Taliban playbook: in the 1990s, bands of young men under the same name terrorized Afghanistan, flogging men for shaving their beards, caning women for walking alone and thrashing children for flying kites.

The young fighters were chattering excitedly about a missile that had recently destroyed one of their ammunition dumps. An American missile, the kids said. “It was a plane without a pilot,� one of the boys explained through an interpreter. His eyes darted back and forth among his fellows. “We saw a flash. And then the building exploded.�

His description matched that of a Predator, an airborne drone that America uses to hunt militants in the tribal areas. Publicly, at least, the Predator is the only American presence the Pakistani government has so far allowed inside its borders.

We walked into the compound’s main building. In a corner, Namdar sat on the floor, wearing a traditional salwar kameez, but also a vest that looked as if it had been plucked from a three-piece suit. He stood to shake my hand, and he gave a small bow. To break the ice, I handed him a map of Pakistan and asked him to show me where we were. Namdar peered at the chart for several seconds, his eyes registering nothing. He handed it to one of his deputies. He resumed his stare.

Trying again, I asked about the Pakistani military operation — the one that was supposed to be unfolding right now, chasing the Taliban from Khyber.

Why, I asked Namdar, aren’t the Pakistani forces coming after you?

“The government cannot do anything to us, because we are fighting the holy war,� he said. “We are fighting the foreigners — it is our obligation. They are killing innocent people.� Namdar’s aides, one of whom spoke fluent English, looked at him and shook their heads to make him speak more cautiously. Namdar carried on.

“When the Americans kill innocent people, we must take revenge,� he said.

Tell me about that, I asked Namdar, and his aides again shook their heads. Finally Namdar changed his line. “Well, we can’t stop anyone from going across� into Afghanistan, he said. “I’m not saying we send them ourselves.� And with that, Namdar raised his hand, declining to offer any more details.

By many accounts — on the streets, among Western analysts, even according to his own deputies — Namdar was regularly training and dispatching young men to fight and blow themselves up in Afghanistan. An aide, Munsif Khan, told me that his group had sent “hundreds of people� to fight the Americans. At one point, he described for me how the Vice and Virtue brigade had recently set a minimum-age requirement for suicide bombers. “We are opposed to children carrying out suicide bombings,� Khan said. “We get so many young people coming to us — 15, 16 years old — wanting to go on martyrdom operations. This is not the age to be a suicide bomber. Any man who wants to be a suicide bomber should be at least 20 or 25.�

Khan himself, a former magazine reporter in Peshawar, had been gravely wounded in a car-bomb attack last year. His feet were mangled, and he could walk only with crutches. A bloody struggle for power rages among the many Taliban warlords of the FATA; Khan said his assailants had likely been dispatched by Baitullah Mehsud, the powerful warlord in South Waziristan, because Namdar had refused to submit to Mehsud’s authority.

Another of Namdar’s aides had spoken enthusiastically of his commander’s prowess in battle. “He is a great fighter!� the aide told me. “He goes to Afghanistan every month to fight the Americans.�

So here was Namdar — Taliban chieftain, enforcer of Islamic law, usurper of the Pakistani government and trainer and facilitator of suicide bombers in Afghanistan — sitting at home, not three miles from Peshawar, untouched by the Pakistani military operation that was supposedly unfolding around us.

What’s going on? I asked the warlord. Why aren’t they coming for you?

“I cannot lie to you,� Namdar said, smiling at last. “The army comes in, and they fire at empty buildings. It is a drama — it is just to entertain.�

Entertain whom? I asked.

“America,� he said.

III. Playing the Game

The idea that Pakistan’s military and intelligence agencies could simultaneously be aiding the Taliban and like-minded militants while taking money from the United States is not as far-fetched as it may seem.

The relationship dates to the 1980s, when, following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan became the conduit for billions of dollars of American and Saudi money for the Afghan rebels. Pakistan’s leader, the fundamentalist Gen. Zia ul-Haq, funneled the bulk of the cash to the most religiously extreme guerrilla leaders. After the Soviet Union withdrew in 1989, Pakistani military and intelligence services kept on supporting Islamist militants, notably in the Muslim-majority Indian state of Kashmir, where they threw their support behind a local uprising. Through time, with the Pakistanis closely involved, the Kashmiri movement was taken over by Islamist extremists and foreign fighters who moved easily between Pakistan and Kashmir.

Then, in 1994, Pakistani leaders made their most fateful move. Alarmed by the civil war that engulfed Afghanistan following the Soviet retreat, Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and her government intervened on behalf of a small group of former anti-Soviet fighters known for their religious fanaticism. They called themselves “the students�: the Taliban.

With Pakistan providing support and the United States looking the other way, the Taliban took control of Kabul in 1996. “We created the Taliban,� Nasrullah Babar, the interior minister under Benazir Bhutto, told me in an interview at his home in Peshawar in 1999. “Mrs. Bhutto had a vision: that through a peaceful Afghanistan, Pakistan could extend its influence into the resource-rich territories of Central Asia.� That never happened — the Taliban, even with Pakistani support, never completed the conquest of Afghanistan. But the training camps they ran, sometimes with the help of Pakistani intelligence officers, were beacons to Islamic militants from around the world.

By all accounts, Pakistan’s spymasters were never terribly discriminating about who showed up in their training camps. In 1998, when President Bill Clinton ordered missile strikes against camps in Afghanistan following Al Qaeda’s bombings of American embassies in East Africa, several trainers from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, were killed. Osama bin Laden was supposed to be there when the missiles struck but apparently had already left.

After 9/11, President George W. Bush and other senior American officials declared in the strongest terms that Pakistani leaders had to end their support for the Taliban and other Islamic militants. Pakistan’s military dictator, Pervez Musharraf, promised to do so.

Yet the game did not end; it merely changed. In the years after 9/11, Musharraf often made great shows of going after militants inside Pakistan, while at the same time supporting and protecting them.

In 2002, for instance, Musharraf ordered the arrest of some 2,000 suspected militants, many of whom had trained in Pakistani-sponsored camps. And then, quietly, he released nearly all of them. Another revealing moment came in 2005, when Fazlur Rehman, the leader of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, one of the most radical Islamist parties, denounced Musharraf for denying the existence of jihadi groups. Everyone knows, Rehman said in a speech before Pakistan’s National Assembly, that the government supports the holy warriors. “We will have to openly tell the world whether we want to support jihadis or crack down on them,� Rehman declared. “We cannot afford to be hypocritical any more.�

In 2006, a senior ISI official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told a New York Times reporter that he regarded Serajuddin Haqqani as one of the ISI’s intelligence assets. “We are not apologetic about this,� the ISI official said. For a presumed ally of the United States, that was a stunning admission: Haqqani, an Afghan, is currently one of the Taliban’s most senior commanders battling the Americans in eastern Afghanistan. His father, Jalaluddin, is a longtime associate of bin Laden’s. The Haqqanis are believed to be overseeing operations from a hiding place in the Pakistani tribal agency of North Waziristan.

But such evidence, however intriguing, fails to answer the critical questions: Exactly who in the Pakistani government is helping the militants and why?

THE MOST COMMON THEORY offered to explain Pakistan’s continued contact with Islamic militants is the country’s obsession with India. Pakistan has fought three major wars with India, from which it split violently upon independence from Britain in 1947. To the east, the Pakistani military and intelligence services have long tolerated and sometimes directed militants moving into Indian Kashmir. To the west, Afghanistan has long been seen as a potentially critical arena of competition with India. After the U.S.-led invasion in the fall of 2001, for example, India lost no time in setting up consulates throughout Afghanistan and beginning an extensive aid program. According to Pakistani and Western officials, Pakistan’s officer corps remains obsessed by the prospect of Indian domination of Afghanistan should the Americans leave. The Taliban are seen as a counterweight to Indian influence. “We are saving the Taliban for a rainy day,� one former Pakistani official put it to me.

Another explanation is growing popular hatred of the United States. Pakistan’s leaders — whether Musharraf or the army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, or the country’s leading civilian politicians — are finding it more and more difficult to mobilize their own army and intelligence services to act against the Taliban and other militants inside the country. And while the Pakistan Army used to be a predominantly secular institution, increasingly it is being led by Islamist-minded officers.

The pro-Islamist and anti-American sentiments pervading the armed forces might help explain why a group of ill-trained, underpaid Pakistani Frontier Corps soldiers would open fire on American troops fighting the Taliban. Those same sentiments buttress the notion, offered by some American and Pakistani officials, that rogue officers inside the army and ISI are supporting the militants against the wishes of their superiors.

Finally, there is the problem of the Pakistan Army’s competence. For all the myths that officers like Musharraf have spread about the institution, the simple fact is that it isn’t very good. The Pakistan Army has lost every war it has ever fought. And it isn’t trained to battle an insurgency. Each of the half-dozen offensives the army has launched into the tribal areas since 2004 has left it bloodied and humbled.

For all these reasons, when it comes to the militants in their midst, it’s easier for Pakistan to do as little as possible.

“There is a growing Islamist feeling in the military, and it’s inseparable from anti-Americanism,� I was told by a Western military officer with several years’ experience in the region. “The vast majority of Pakistani officers feel they are fighting our war. There is a lot of sympathy for the Taliban. The result is that the Pakistanis do as little as they possibly can to combat the militants.�

These are reasonable explanations, offered by reasonable people. But are such explanations enough? The more Pakistanis I talked to, the more I came to believe that the most reasonable explanations were not necessarily the most plausible ones.

Bubba, bhai mere...I am with you on this. I am not arguing that the bailout is the right thing to do. It is a timing issue. Fanny and freddie have been trouble for over 3 years. Their debt\equity ratio is pathetic. The market has been punishing them.

The bailout should also be looked at in the prism of wealth generated by this industry over the boom time. Zero the bitch out.

impotent rage by pakis used to be amusing..now it's downright pathetic..

Pakistan vows to defend its frontiers after deadly US raid

By Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad

Published: September 5 2008 03:00 | Last updated: September 5 2008 03:00

Pakistan vowed to defend its territory against foreign intrusion yesterday as anger mounted after a raid on a border village, which US officials later confirmed had been carried out by their special forces.

"We have a resolve and we have national consensus in Pakistan to defend our territorial integrity," Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the foreign minister, told parliament. "We will not compromise on any violation of our sovereignty."

Reuters quoted US Pentagon officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirming that the raid was conducted by US special operations forces. They were targeting suspected al-Qaeda operatives, signalling a possible intensification of US efforts to disrupt militant safe havens in Pakistan.

Masadi, Marx and the rest of the AIDS(america is doomed syndrome) brigade have been predicting the fall of capitalism...and yet india and china have shown the way forward is capitalism...not marxism or masadism..

well, the treasury basically has the power to extend unlimited credit because of the housing bill that congress signed last month and it looks like they're planning to do whatever it takes... in excess of $200 billion, the number just keeps rising.

hamid writes "because his cleaning lady and her husband just managed to get a 450 thousand dollar mortgage ...... "

Hamid sahib, salam and greetings of peace. How goes this fine evening near Detroit? Motor City ok? gas prices falling?, baal bacha? Haal chaal? chai paani?

Your friend just like you have cleaning ladies and sprinkler guys that make over 6 figure salaries or deal in those amounts other than sending their kids to Harvard and what not. Instead of listening to them listen to Marx regarding the crisis that perioically visit capitalism beacuse of the system's internal contradictions. Read some, and learn....

Have a nice day, keep the water sprinkling, and the floors sparkling.....soon your kids will be a heading to Harvard and Yale...

TNI Masadi

Re: # 129

alpha mian,

.... it is going to take more than 50B to 'turn around' the housing market and i don't think it will be a big turn around even then .... hopefully we can stem the slide ... the asset base that you are talking about is probably 50% of what it was on paper a year ago .....

.... a few years ago, when the housing market was at its peak my friend tehsin, who is the biggest slum lord in connecticut and who rears his ugly head on this forum once in a while, told me that he was dumping his real estate because his cleaning lady and her husband just managed to get a 450 thousand dollar mortgage ...... i should have listened to him - sometimes the fool knows what he is talking about ...... many years ago, before the internet bust, i should have dumped all my technology stocks when a seven dollar an hour security guard offered to give me a a 'hot tip' while i was waiting in the lobby of an office building ........ this housing bust was bound to happen - we were all too greedy and foolish to see it coming ........

Re: # 129 Posted by CreateAlpha on September 7, 2008 3:22:42 pm

Alpha,

Agreed with your line of thinking. Looking at from the $14 Trillion dollar economy, this amount seems low. But the issue is not about the size of the bailout, but why should the US govt. be in the real estate business in the first place? In my opinion, they should not.

Fannie and Freddie packages most of the mortgages and sell them to private investors. These days there are not too many private investors buying these chunks of over-valued real estate mortgages. They are waiting in the wings till the day when the price tag on these packages are a lot lower than what is being asked for.

Fannie and Freddie, bought these mortgages from the Banks at high values, and now they have mortgages on their books. They should not be allowed to buy any more of these fuzzy instruments called mortgages, until the market of these over-valued houses (hence these loans) are more in-line to the real world.

More than 90% of the mortgages are being off on time, and the home owners are not going anywhere. They are not the flippers. It is only the crowd who are left out (the so-called future buyers of homes) that would benefit from this bail out.

American tax payers money is being used for the real estate gamblers. Totally and utterly ridiculous.

Rabia, if even $50 billion in guarantees and cash infusion to sure up a balance sheet is required, it is not the end of the world. This is a $14 trillion economy. That is the perspective I am talkng.

Cyclicality of liquidity and ebb anf flow of risk is not the gov't bailiwick. Share price is what it is because access to balance sheet capital for these two psuedo companies has dried up as the investors have bailed.

$25 b in guarantee and capital drops the 30 year mgtge rate, hopefully turns the housing market from the perspective of those on the sidelines and the cycle begins anew. Shareholders who took market risk aren't getting bailed out

There used to be a chowkie who went by the nick romair or something...he told us mushy was THE MAN and after 9/11, all mushy had to do was continue supporting the war on terrorism and it would give pakiland enough economic muscle to continue the jihad in kashmir...he even told us kashmir would be azaad in a decade...

wonder where he's at..


Pakistan could be next big IMF customer

* Citigroup calls weak rupee ‘a legacy of flawed economic policies’
* Sees risk of debt default next year

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: A recent report by Citigroup suggests Pakistan as the International Monetary Fund’s (IMF) next big customer, according to a Newsweek report.

According to the magazine, the IMF had seemed on track to permanent downsizing earlier this year, because emerging-market growth had left it without a client base of economically poor nations. However, that might soon change.

Default: The magazine quoted a recent report by Citigroup saying Pakistan could be the IMF’s next big customer. According to the magazine, “the bank sees a big risk of sovereign-debt default next year thanks to a weak rupee (a legacy of flawed economic policies) and higher energy prices�.

“The balance-of-payment situation in energy-dependent countries like Pakistan has deteriorated,� Newsweek quoted Citi economist Mushtaq Khan as saying. “Oil has softened, but even if prices stay where they are, Pakistan will run a large deficit,� Khan said.

According to the magazine, Khan noted that Pakistan needed IMF advice more than money. It said proposed loans from Saudi Arabia could stabilise the currency, but other investors “would not bite until they see a plan for structural reform�.

Earlier, an IMF staff assessment of Pakistan’s macroeconomic situation had called it fragile and vulnerable to a crisis.

According to the IMF experts responsible for the assessment, the external current account deficit for 2008-09 will be $14 billion or 7.7 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). With capital inflows of about $7 billion, the IMF estimated the external financing gap to be around $7 billion.

Real GDP growth is expected to slow further to about 4.5 to 5 percent in 2008-09, while average inflation is projected to increase to 16-17 percent owing in part to the expected pass-through of higher international food and energy prices.

The IMF also recommended that a stronger effort is necessary to broaden the tax base by eliminating some tax exemptions. Interest rates should be allowed to rise as needed in order to lower inflation and ensure that the domestic financing of the deficit is covered entirely by commercial banks and non-bank sources.

The IMF noted that Pakistan has requested an oil facility from Saudi Arabia to defer the payment of oil imports of 110,000 barrels per day, which at current oil prices would amount to $5 billion annually. The terms and conditions of the deferment were on hold till the presidential election.

"There is a greater sentiment from some pakis of platepissing which is more prominent now than ever. as if there are no cyclical downturns in a capitalist structure.."

ah, ok. I guess that explains what you meant by "some perspective please". I think it's actually disingenuous to call this a cyclical downturn in a capitalist structure since, as you must be aware, there are plenty of really bad government decisions behind this.

CreateAlpha: my point was that the $25 billion estimate that the Congressional Budget Office came up with is likely to be a lot lower than what the taxpayers actually pay. It's a similar situation to the savings and loan crisis of the 80s where the originally estimated taxpayer cost was way lower than what they actually paid.

Hamidm sahib:

Taxing where the money is done by both republicans and democrats. Ronald Regan gave some the biggest tax breaks to upper 1%, only to tax more heavily later. "Read my lips" president continued with taxes in his 4 year term. Cliton continued taxing and generating another $100 Billions from the top 1%. So what Regan gave as breaks in his first 4 years were taken back over the next 12 years (next three terms), two of those terms were republican. This is American way of tapping resources, and giving it back. I think you said somewhere that middle America has trillion dollars in savings through taxation, now Bush is suggesting bailing out Fannie and Freddie. Thus even Bush Jr. is taxing. I do feel taxing is a better alternative than borrowing from China and paying $750 Billion to countries, as your candidates McCain and Palin say, who are not supportive of America.

Givernment in America cannot dictate too much, it has very limited control, whether it is republican or democratic control. Even common American like you and I, knows this. I just happen to prefer democratic way, than republican way. There is no need to trash democratic way. There is a bigger issue of healthcare and housing crisis. The threatens health and well being, and the second threatens equity / savings of the middle America.

Rabia, how do you propose you gauge the asset base? Are you going to diligence each contract underwritten by FRE and FM? Do you propose only underwriting the segment?

Of course there is no upper limit...the american government is taking on the guarantee...not lituania. Some perspective please.

The worst thing about this plan to put it under conservatorship is that it's so open-ended. I think the government estimated that it would cost the taxpayers ~$25 billion but there is no actual upper limit.

Re: # 110

CreateAlpha

Federal Reserve and US Treasury did try a 'bailout' for BearStearns but when they saw deeper problems particularly with confidence then the 'fire sale' was used as a last resort. Technically, you are right, then again why are wrong to argue with a clueless person.

If initial reports are correct, then FRE & FNM are getting conservatorship ie US Govt will take over the ownership, this is not a bailout for the common stock holders who will see their equity go to zero. The company business will continue under new management and capital infusion. Companies are most likely to be broken and sold in parts.

Bubba, I am not a republican. I just don't undestand this sky is falling silliness.

I told tahmed years ago to get over his "democray" shyte. There is no room for democracy in pakistan, which requires some intestinal fortitude among the people. The people want messiahs...the messiahs have been coming from the army and the landed gentry. Now the fundos are also trying their hand.....pakistanis are fk'ed.
Getting a judge back or two is not the panacea to pakistan's predicament which is currently more about ensuring the reserves can make it beyond 2 mos of exports.

arjun#118( post # not the suffix:))

It's a long time since I read about this, so the US laws may have changed since then.

Re: # 113 Posted by CreateAlpha on September 7, 2008 7:25:16 am

Alpha,

I agree with your post, and the only paki that is in agreement with our republican thought is hamid mian. Unfortunately for our p.o.v. he is near retirement and is therefore unable to be authentic. He claims that since he is a paki, he is unable to side with the correct position. Personally, I think that the disease is beyond this. Since hamid is born of mixed parentage of a Punjabi (an emotional rhetorical, non-civilized culture) and a Pathaan (correct, emphatic, honest, culture), he inadvertently becomes self-centered. It is influx of all those Kashmiri (wanna-be Punjabis) that I more concerned with and their forays into understanding the complex international financial system.

I, for one, do not claim to have a complete grasp of the current game being played by democrats regarding our money.

You are correct that [ and ISNA is running soup kitchens at full capacity.] the ISNA fundamentalists are trying to show what that they understand these complex financial plays.

I am just an ordinary civilized person who wants to do good for the American tax payers. However, it is these Masjid-hopping paki who interject themselves, without any inkling of knowledge and total complete arrogance against intellect, which most of them do not have. These Masjid going pakis flood the ordinary common civilized conversation with an argument which is asserted loudly and vigorously, even though it may have no substance at all. They seldom realize that assertion is no proof.

#116 Posted by dost_mittar on September 7, 2008 8:18:10 am


that capital gains on principle residence in Canada is not taxable unlike in the US where it is.


that's incorrect.


When you sell your primary residence, you can make up to $250,000 in profit if you're a single owner, twice that if you're married, and not owe any capital gains taxes.

FYI: NYT magazine Dept 7 2008: Right at the Edge

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/magazine/07pakistan-t.html?pagewanted= all

ahmadmadani#82:

That's a complex question, Madani Saheb!

For starters, both Canada and the US have about the same percentage of home ownership, around 65%. But this is a somewhat misleading indicator as India and Pakistan have over 80% homeownership although a majority of them won't even qualify as "housing" in the western world. As for the size, I do not know comparative figures, but I think that people buy house partly for their housing needs, partly as a marker of social status and partly as investment. In New York and San Francisco (or in Mumbai, for that matter), a small condominium would cost much more than a large house in Idaho or Prince Edward Island, so people in Idaho and Prince Edward Island will have larger houses even though they cost more to heat and light.

As you pointed out, interest on mortgages is not deductible in Canada but it is compensated to some extent by the fact that capital gains on principle residence in Canada is not taxable unlike in the US where it is. But Canada does encourage housing in many other ways to support both the housing needs as well as its huge multiplier effect on the whole economy; a fact which is evident in the US.

You are quite right that North Americans are not crazy about gold but those who can, do buy diamond jewellery; as they say, diamonds are a girl's best friend. These days, btw, diamonds are becoming increasingly more popular for jewellery even in India.

The Indian women's love for jewellery had a more practical aspect as well. It was a Hindu custom to regard gold jewellery as "stree-dhan" (woman's property), so when the marriage broke down or a husband acquired another wife, the gold jewellery stayed with the wife. Muslims continued with this tradition of stree-dhan, so the love of the yellow metal stayed with them after conversion to the new faith.

#94 Posted by muqaddam on September 7, 2008 2:03:48 am


The recent blockade by Pakistan of fuel being trucked in to Afghanistan for the coalition forces


You mean the "blockade" that's already been lifted?

So if "bear stearns bailout" has hundreds of hits on google, that means bear was a bailout instead of a guarantee...

Of course, the rule doesn't apply when "pakistan and terrorism" show up on searches of every newspaper..let along google...

Bubba, over 90% of the american public is vested in the US capital markets either directly, or through pension funds and such. Democrats are simply playing politics. It is stupid. Shareholders of fannie and fannie are not just rich white guys, they are also black lesbians like tahmed whose pension funds and ira account investments. And what is this bailout we keep hearing about? Is it cash? Is it guaranteeing of underlying assests? Both?

The idiots in the media and tahmed make it sound like Hooverville's are being set up in each suburb, and ISNA is running soup kitchens at full capacity. :)

There is a greater sentiment from some pakis of platepissing which is more prominent now than ever. as if there are no cyclical downturns in a capitalist structure...as if the hinjews and whiteboys making decisions at mid east soverin funds have converted to islam and are bringing the end to this evil satan called USA.

There will be more bankruptsies, there will be more political rhetoric but some perspective fellas. Why is korea putting money in lehman and not in china or india? Why do middle easten swf's clamor to put money in US corporates, instead of their own back yards or pakistan? It is because this country is still provides the safest returns anywhere. And they don't mind if they have to do it on terms that favor the US companies.

CA #110 Dont believe me - google "Bear Sterns bailout" study some of the half-million links it provides.

hamidm: spare me the namecalling for telling you the obvious - unless you own enough houses to not have to worry about retirement, republicans are going to make you rich no sooner than mullahs are going to deliver 72 virgins to urstruly.

and if you have bought the republican line that democrats pander to "welfare mommas" and not to "retirement papas" like you, then i have this great waterfront property in kabul to sell you..

Ahmedmadani, when the markets corrects in the US, the world gets a cold. Look at russia, india, china this year. Everyone thinks they are decoupled but they are not!

And tahmed, how was the Bear deal a bailout? I didn't know tender offers are bailouts...:)

tahmed,

bewakoof! ....explain the difference between mccain and hussein on this issue:

"Paulson briefed congressional leaders and presidential candidates John McCain yesterday and Barack Obama on Friday night. Obama yesterday said that he approves of the government action, if it does not bail out the companies' shareholders and executives and is good for the economy. Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin said a McCain administration would make the companies smaller and more effective. "

.... so what if mccain has seven houses, i know many pakis who have multiple homes and dozens of investment properties ... many mid-level auto executives and subway franchise owners in michigan owns least three homes - one here, one "up north" and one down in florida ..... and the ones up north are not shacks - inspite of the recession, waterfront homes in traverse city and on places like torch lake still run in the millions ........ and the democrats like hussein and the kennedys who pander to the welfare mommas living in the ghetto, do not live in cardboard shacks either ......... so cut out this democrat wihining

hamidm: and how big a sucker do you have to be if you think that "cant count my houses" mccain, and "only little people pay taxes and worry about retirement funds" republicans are going to help you out. unless you buy their "trickle down" economics, in which case you are an even bigger sucker.

hamidm: if you are worried about retirement, i think you wont earn money for your retirement discussing matters with the financial experts on chowk. unless Mr. Masadi pays you by the post.

bubba mian,

.... in principle i agree with you, but being a little closer to retirement than you i cannot afford to wait for the markets to recover on their own and i certainly can't afford citibank going under since they have a lot of my money ..... being a paki, my principles take a back seat to my petty self interests ..... let me get my money out of the market and then i might change my tune ........ however, don't worry, i am still voting for mccain - when it comes to iraq and the economy, i really don't see too much daylight between him and hussein ........

#104 how can these doggie-style things be happening in Mr. Masadi's presence, peon sahib??!! :-(

Re: # 103

yes tahmeedi saab, peon has been banned all the time saab. in our country saab they are taking ours doggie style saab, ghareeb aadmi ki saans bhi band hai saab

salam saab

#101 peon sahib: they banned you, sahib!! that is SO rude of them!!

#90 createalpha: it was a bailout, sriram chuckie (and dont confuse sriram bubba by sharing your ignorance - learn the meaning of bailout instead).

Re: # 100

Salam tahmeedi saab. the peon was banned again saab.
how are you saab?

bubba: and in the remainder of your post, all i see is more evidence that economics is not your forte. and simply parrotting meaningless republican-sounding slogans (" Wealth creation is an anathema for the democrats.") simply confirms what I wrote below that you ignore and simply claim to be wrong.

bubba #98 I will be pleased to stand corrected if you see anything wrong in what I said. Simply nodding your head in agreement says nothing about what I wrote, and simply reveals your own inability to deal with what I wrote to you below.

Re: # 90 Posted by CreateAlpha on September 6, 2008 9:27:50 pm

alpha,

[..there is no difference between masadi and tahmed. Both are almost always wrong.] Agreed.

Regarding bailout, hamid mian's opinion is what the media is spouting and he has not as yet given his own insights. When Barney F. support is shown on anything, i have a tendency then to assume that once again, it is the democrats trying to stick it to the tax payers. as we all know that for democrats nothing is more important that sticking it to wealth. Wealth creation is an anathema for the democrats. No matter what is said, democrats turn it around against wealth. Even if you have a few measly dollars in the stock market, according to these democrats this is wealth and it must be tax at a huge rate. They are talking about raising capital gains tax from 15% to more than 35%. They never talk about raising the losses from 3,000 per year. We all know with such a stock market year they should increase the losses taken per year. But they won't.

Yes, for the most part, i do understand what preferred stacks are. If one has preferred stock on any other public company that goes belly up, then these stocks do get wiped out. Why should the tax payers support these preferred stock holders? In my opinion they should not.

I do understand that economic theory is circular logic. No matter what these pundits say, if we continue accepting there nonsense, then it eventually comes to the place that it started. One of the values that I like about Hillary Clinton is that she does not listen to economists.

And as for the rest of debt holding of (about $300B), the money is from countries that go to hell (as far as I am concerned). You see, china has offloaded their production crap on these soils for the last 30 years. They intentionally robbed good paying American jobs, etc., and they chose to invest in American real estate. It was there choice.

Now they are asking the tax payers of American to bail them out. It is the democratic congress that has given authority to the administration to go ahead and screw the tax payer. And I bet you; once again, barak obama and his democratic party will claim that it was the republican administration that has no love for American.

McCain on the other hand, does understand this economic fiasco. He loves his country first, and is waiting for the democrats to show their complete hand in this regard.

i see the pandit-jay-thakeray has been discharged from the mental asylum.

Many pakistanis are insulted by teh nato strike inside pakistan as a violation of paki sovereignty.

No one cares to mention that the forigners operating out of pakistan is also a violation. No one cares to mention that the very same people attacked by the nato troops are also being attacked by pak military and helicopter gunships.

Again no one cares to mention teh fact that in paki army attacks, no arb or foreigner gets killed. Why, because they are tipped of first, the arabs are supported by teh ISI. The us predator attacks always kills foreigners...why. Those attacks are not coordinated by the ISI, teh paki army attacks are and that si why no fpreigner gets killed.

Pak army attacks are part of pakistans political process, it has nothing to do with taliban or peopel who attack nato troops.

Leaders of pakistan,

It was none other than the interior minister who said that supplies to nato troops through pakistan will be stopped. The poor man has no clue about the situation that pakistan is in, he is still dreaming about the ghouri days of islamic conquests and looting. Now pakistan is at the mecy of teh US for its very survival.

With the power cuts, smugling, crime and poverty, there is capital out flow and the economic future of pakistan is very bleak, so bleak that they are requesting indians to put in money.

If only the educated pakistanis of chowk care to teach the relity to their country men.

The recent blockade by Pakistan of fuel being trucked in to Afghanistan for the coalition forces in retaliation of trans border raid, once again brings out the dilemma facing the Americans, how to deal with Pakistan. An Afghan recently described the coalition forces as a burning pajama, it hurts but if you take it out, you are naked. Pakistan must be that pajama for the Americans today. And the that pajama would have been cut and stitched by the military dominated foreign policy experts of Islamabad.

Its military created, trained, and armed the Pushtun Talibs, followed it up with the recognition of the Taliban regime, won a diplomatic victory when it convinced the clueless sheiks of Dubai and Saudia to also recognise it.
When Uncle Sam showed the danda after 9/11, the Commando General President put his tail between his legs and shamelessly joined the war against the very regime Pakistan had propped up. Uncle Sam put in a lot of dollars for their allegiance and what do they get in return for those billions? The Pakistani military is again upto playing a double game, show you are on the side of the Coalition but secretly arm the Talibs so they can keep the pot boiling in Afghanistan.
One does not understand how long the Americans are going to allow wool being pulled over their eyes.

Re: # 91

ahmedmadani sahib

{Can anybody explain why Bilawal was not present while his sisters were with president for photo opportunity ?}

His poor taste in clothing? Getting too big for his shoes? Incoherent replies? Taking exams? He is after all just a kid? Take your pick.

Re: # 90 Mr. T and hamid it will be more helpful to talk about KSE, shares, bonds, saving schemes and interest rate and which stocks are good ( aadamjee related company is good , they are parsee gentlemen all others are chors).
Now even poor man in america has car and little house. Some incite from outside can be helpful. If american economy does down it really does not matter in pakistan.
Good day

Can anybody explain why Bilawal was not present while his sisters were with president for photo opportunity ?

And tahmed, the FED facilitated the sale of bear to jp morgan. It wasn't a bailout chuckie! It was an old school fire sale, a cramdown....jeez...there is no difference between masadi and tahmed. Both are almost always wrong.

Bubbie, that is because preferred stock has certain rights and is a senior security chanda. Before preferred stock gets paid out, fannie and freddie will have to deal with the covertible debt and before that the senior secured that fannie has. Sometimes I think that all you pakis are one tree short of a hammock. And tahmed, as usual is without both the trees and is holding his langot as the net. :)

Ahmad sahib have some shame, and have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

that's 3%, not 4% of $15 t. below.

bubba: while not wishing to spoil this little game of playing gora republican sahib of you and hamidm, rest assured your economics isnt even close to making any sense.

first - regardless of what your republican friends think, the US govt has, per news reports today, already finalized a bail out plan for fannie and freddie. as it did a few months ago with Bear Sterns. As it did (via imf) in the far east financial crisis. and btw fannie and freddie have $3 trillion in assets between then, not a mere $450 b. = 4% of $15 trillion that you think).

second - rest assured Obama may not be mistaken for a gora republican sahib like hamidm is when he gets overspeeding tickets, but he is not as clueless as you think. regardless of what those clowns chanting "drill, baby, drill" like a bunch of maniacs at the RNC say. The same neo-con boys who turned the largest US surplus into the largest deficit. and even got suckered by the Iraq government into paying for $10 billion per month for their internal wars through this deficit, while letting Iraqis build up a surplus of $79 billion.

Re: # 81 Posted by hamidm2 on September 6, 2008 1:00:44 pm

hamid mian,

i too have no desire to flip hamburgers, and i don't think that i will because it surely is a long way for me to retire. but it seems that you are just spouting the bad pipe piper and his monkeys (the cnn, pbs, cbs, nbc, abc, media that is floating around through e-mail; have you seen it yet?). their punditry surely makes one puke. i asked several of my republican acquaintances and it seems that they are totally against for the govt. to bail out fannie and freddie. yes the govt. will sell the GSE's in small chunks, and that is what the economist has been recommending for a long time. The govt. should not have been in the real estate business to begin with.

This is what they are saying:

$10B of common stock holders are going to be wiped out.

They want to save the next $30B of preferred stock holders from being wiped out. Why?

Their argument is that these are mostly banks, etc. So? I really don't care if Citi-group goes down. After all they do have this horrible hindu as their chairman. Besides that Arab sheikh's money is all about funny oil money anyway. O! then China has some $300B tied to this fiasco, and maybe some retirement system like Calpers.

As a tax payer, for all these largess why do I have to pay?

These are all monies under management, and if it goes under so what? Granted there will be some shock in the system, but I think that the scare tactics is just too much for ordinary Americans to get it. After all the US economy is about $15 Trillion. The trouble is only with less than 3% of this huge economy. You want to say that there is not that much of a slack to handle such (3%) shock? How can that be logical?

Besides all the amount that these financial pundits are throwing around is from appraised values, and not the true market value, because nobody knows what it actually is?

And besides, Obama continues to say that he is going to invest in the American economy. Is he nuts? Where is the money coming from?

Did you know that the whole "bakwas" that goes on in the Congress every budget cycle is about 27% of the budget. The rest of 73% of the budget is earmarked and are entitlements.

if the tax payers were to give in $300B in this mortgage mess, how is obama going to fulfill his dreams?

BTW, for the first time I find our illustrious math teacher talking sense. Don't you agree?

Re: # 79 Arjun you have been banned 18 times. Every time hope rises but no improvement. You can think of new improved arjun by actions.

Re: # 78 DM..., If I am correct GovCanada does not encourage house buiding as GovUSA by subsidizing mortgage or tax concession. I think there is something in usa law promise, Province govt to help to everybody has small house and car. I have heard that is most common dream of USA citizen.

I personally think canada gov may be prudent which avoids some people over sizing houses. And most of time canada is ice cold will take lots of canadian pounds every mouth to heat big house.
Is it prudent to over built big house as one can not use more than minimum required size.( Marginal utility decreases very fast when house reaches about 800 Sq Ft.) It is wrong national policy to force people too put too much money in "oversized house".It is like wastage and damaging your wealth putting in house which does not produce income. As you have knowledge of economy you can tell my feeling of national oversizing house is one of moost destructive national addiction . As huge capital is invested in non returns. It is as bad as buying gold and silver ornments which dead investments. Now govt has hard time to tell people to lower down expectations about size of house as it will damage house related activity which may be more than even auto industry, as usa and canada every family even poor have car as elites make sure no good bus system.
My feeling is most destructive investment made nationally by Americans is oversized houses they can not afford. This may be making capital markets charge more interests for other productive activities like trade, manufacturing and services. Kindly comment your feelings.
Is there same obsession about gold and silver and ornments by women folks in usa and canada of is pecular Deshi thing.( another dead investment, but women wearing ornments is very beautiful picture, some times young women with payal on foot is magical for site and sound. If some body knows Khabutors we put payals like rings in young males foot. It is beautiful site when young males swell the neck and jump and moves with steps like Waltz and take circular round about themselves is beautiful to watch and they are very happy is beautiful scene itched in my memory)
Good morning.

American army nightmare must be over, supply is restored

Re: # 80

bubba,

.... this is from a few minutes ago .....

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/treasury-set-bail-out-fannie/story.asp x?guid=%7B46D1439E-A2C4-418C-9BE0-09BE0B9EE60D%7D&dist=msr_4

...in simple terms, if fannie and freddie go under many banks could go under - so if you have any money in the bank you could get hurt ..... also many pension funds and 401K plans have fannie and freddie bonds (that were concsidered as good as cash) - the the way things are going you and i could be flipping burgers in our retirement instead of sitting on the beach sipping pik and blue drinks with little umbrellas and watching the girls in bikinis .... and what if you want to borrow money to start a business or your kid wants to get a student loan ?

.... it is a shame that this thing has been allowed to get to this stage, but now the government has no choice but to nationlize both and then sell them off in small chunks ..... i have no desire to flip hambugers

Re: # 77 Posted by hamidm2 on September 6, 2008 7:00:40 am

hamid mian,

I too am against this govt. bailout, but whatever I have understood (so far) is that it is bad for the economy. Why? So, what if the monies from the preferred stock holders or the retirement system gets wiped out. Shouldn't this be left to the free market (I suppose)? And yes, of course those ill-gotten chinese wealth machine that has parked their money in these so-called safe mortgage securities. I see this bailout as protecting the game all over again, and this time they are fooling the general American public. Most people who support the democratic party's candidate don't even know that their party is supporting tax on the wealth.

can you help clarify this thought? if the whole US mortgage industry goes to pots, how does that affect a person like me? in simple terms please.

how would this nationalization work? adversely? for the common people?

then on top of all this, god forbid, if obama wins, he says that he wants to create more govt. jobs for everyone. we could have a govt. that would become bloated with government bureaucrats.

Roses are red, violets are blue
the jihadis you created
are now killing you


This is great...American forces kill jihadis, jihadis whack pakis..paki army whacks jihadis..lather rinse repeat..

Killer Bomb Blast In Peshawar

A suicide car bomber has struck a security checkpoint in Pakistan's volatile northwest - reportedly killing at least 30 people.

hamidm#77:

Don't use us for your bad policies. We don't have any commie banks, all of our banks are quite profitable, even after losing large amounts to your sinking housing sector.

We do have a Canada Housing Mortgage Corporation, which insures housing loans; it is a govt. entity but runs strictly on business principles and it won't insure sub-prime mortgages.

Re: # 74

bubba,

.... i agree that freddie and fannie should be dismantled, but it has to be done in an orderly fashion ..... the chinese might have 200B of this bad debt but ordinary american have more than a trillion ........in any case this is what happens when the government gets into the banking business through the back door .... we don't want any of that commie stuff from europe and canada .......

bulleya:

You are right about their being no consensus regarding action. The fact is that there is a consensus even on action among the leaders of the Nato countries, but there is no desire in the general population to be "qurbani ke bakray" for this cause. This is as true of Harper and Canada as it is for Sarkozi and France or for Berlusconi and Italy.

But where there is a strong consensus is to put more pressure on Pakistan. The pressure, I think, would be even more to clean up the act of the agencies which are suspected of supporting the taleban than to engage in military action against them. There, I think, the civilian government has an advantage over Musharraf as it does not depend upon the US for its survival, although Zardari may have too many skeletons in the cupboard and therefore quite vulnerable to manipulations.

Re: # 68 Posted by aekpani on September 6, 2008 3:30:59 am

[God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.]

Are you alcoholic?

Re: # 72 Posted by hamidm2 on September 6, 2008 5:47:55 am

hamid mian,

i agree with you that now the us has to concentrate on regime change in iran. the democrats are once again promoting european socialism in the us.

[.. bush is an idiot for not nationalizing fannie and freddie and then breaking them up ]

and as I had discussed this with you many moons ealier, american capitalist has won the financial war with china. it is reported that there are some $200B chinese money involved in this fiasco. i say let it all come crumbling down, but darn those NPR guys, they are out there scaring people.

what say you?

'the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."'

-- Sarah Palın

'by all accounts we have won the war in iraq...'

-- Hamıd Palın

...may God save us....ıf thıs ıs the publıc opınıon ın the usa.....no wonder Chına has won more Olympıc medals than the USA for the fırst tıme...and no wonder abu dhabı ınvestors, wıth communıty college educatıons are outsmartıng us executıves wıth harvard mba's....

perhaps theır ıs some truth to all the predıctıons that SR has been makıng about the declıne of the USA....

captain cluless,

.... i hate to disappoint you, but the entire republican party (including me) and many democrats know that we have won the war ....it does not even appear on the front page or the evening news any more - it is history ...... even joe biden, who had long advocated splitting up iraq, has shut up ...... even if, god forbid, obama wins it will be because of the economy - the mainculprit being the sub-prime disaster .... bush is an idiot for not nationalizing fannie and freddie and then breaking them up - it was the stupidest idea the government ever came up with ........

....regardless of who gets elected, us troops will remain in iraq for the forseeable future and the world will be better off for it ...... now we need to do something about iran ....

dost-mıttar ; ' have never seen such a consensus among western countries as it does now with respect to Pakistan and Afghanistan ;'

...there ıs lıttle consensus on thıs amongst the western world...there maybe consensus of opınıon, but certaınly not consensus of actıon...

....the nato coalıtıon ın afghanıstan ıs crackıng....there ıs already talk ın canada of movıng out....france ıs thınkıng of movıng out, after ten of ıts soldıers dıed recently....dıtto on holland....

afghanıs, themselves, are dıvıded....they are fıghtıng each other and the usa....

when such wars - ıraq, afghanıstan etc. - don't end or are not won quıckly, ıt means the ınvader has lost....afghan war has, now, gone on longer than wwII (6 years)....

ıt ıs now, basıcally, a war between usa and pushtun afghans....the only country that ıs stıll stıckıng wıth the usa, despıte massıve damages to ıtself, ıs pakıstan....whıch ıs beıng torn apart by thıs war....

what rabbıt ıs usa and nato goıng to pull out of theır hat now, that they haven't been able to pull out over the past 7 years.....the longer thıs war goes, the weaker the occupyıng power becomes....

the key country ıs pakıstan....ıf pakıstan stops us logıstıcs, the war ıs as good as over....and pakıstan ıs about to explode.....ın terms of publıc opınıon...

spaın backed out of ıraq war after 1 explosıon....what would happen ın canada ıf there were 160 suıcıde bombıngs....do you thınk the canadıan mılıtary would stıll be ın afghanıstan....ıt was thınkıng of movıng out after only a few soldıers were kılled....

publıc opınıon ın pakıstan, now, ıs so antı-usa and so antı-afghan war, across the spectrum, that somethıng ıs goıng to gıve shortly....barrıng the expats, nearly everyone seems to be totally agaınst the usa and for good reason....

the usa ıs extremely poor at fıghtıng these kınds of wars....ıt ıs dıstant enough and rıch enough to not feel the blowbacks of such mısadventures....however, the surroundıng countrıes feel ıt heavıly...

beıng a frontlıne state ın the fırst afghan war, gave paksıtan klashnıkovs, drugs, and relıgıous mılıtancy....all ıtems alıen to thıs regıon....thıs afghan war ıs goıng to gıve suıcıde bombıngs, local talıban, and ınternal vıolence to the poınt that no one wıll come to pakıstan....

as ı keep sayıng pakıstan needs to tell the usa to pack up from pakıstan and fıght ıts own wars somewhere else.....otherwıse the usa's dısasters ın afghanıstan are goıng to take pakıstan down wıth them....

the usa wıll eventually exıt and wıll leave afghanıstan ın the same mess that the russıans left ıt ın....and pakıstan wıll be left holdıng the bag....

hamidm 'by all accounts we have won the war in iraq...'

may God save the world ıf people wıth thıs kınd of thınkıng stıll exıst ın the usa....

ıraq war ıs what bush and the republıcans bet theır govt. on....ıf the usa has won as you seem to thınk, then why ın the world ıs bush so unpopular.....

the country that has won ın ıraq ıs ıran.....the usa wıll soon be exıtıng....the support for thıs war ın the usa ıtself ıs no longer there....

as for afghanıstan, usa ıs losıng there as well....all of thıs ıs recognızed by usa's own thınk tanks....ıt barely has kabul under control....the rest ıs ın the control of local talıbans, warlords etc..

moreso the reason that pakıstan needs to get out of thıs war....let the amerıcans and talıban fıght ıt out to theır heart's desıre.....

however, ı don't see the current pakıstanı govt havıng the guts to make such a decısıon.....and slowly pakıstan wıll get dragged further and further ınto thıs war, untıl ıt wıll be full player wıth a war of ıts own on ıts hands....

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and what our Army was doing? when Kafirs were attacking on our mother land? or they already decided to sell our mother land?
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Re: # 66
Ahmed...
The basic purpose of USA is to keep its bases in Central Asia. It may be through Turkey,Iraq, Pakistan or somewhere else. So, if USA sees no effective co-operation from Pakistan, they will definitely not hesitate to take the destructive path. That will create trouble for Pakistan.
Now, for this GWOT, USA/NATO invested so much in Pakistan, and still they see Taliban sneaking from Pakistan into Afg, what action do you expect from NATO forces?

Re: # 64 I donot understand military things.
But it appears Kayani and President. Z axis is flexing muscles and will extract and more dollars and arms and war making equipment from usa. They know clearly that America is more in troubles due to problems in Pakistan. America is like big banker. They have invested so much money to keep supply lines humming so war machine is fueled and lubricated. Now economic problems of pakistan are more important to USA and they will be forced to help and international Finance organization , KSA, China will as act as locomotive and pull out economy. Hopefully this is beginning of not aggressive but assertive way of nation to regain its footing with respect to USA .

Re: # 64 I donot understand military things.
But it appears Kayani and President. Z axis is flexing muscles and will extract and more dollars and arms and war making equipment from usa. They know clearly that America is more in troubles due to problems in Pakistan. America is like big banker. They have invested so much money to keep supply lines humming so war machine is fueled and lubricated. Now economic problems of pakistan are more important to USA and they will be forced to help and international Finance organization , KSA, China will as act as locomotive and pull out economy. Hopefully this is beginning of not aggressive but assertive way of nation to regain its footing with respect to USA .

Re: # 62
Ahmed...

You should not blame leaders alone...
Can you stop Pakistanis feeling negative agenda against India and live peacefully? no. It is not induced by leaders. It is the Paki Abduls and Muhammeds have to decide.

Can you survive without NATO aid and NATO assistance?
Most probably not....

As per my understanding, USA has no enemity with Pakistan ( they were mostly Russia centric and now China centric). If you behave properly, you will gain, rather loose...

Re: # 59
ahmed...
Yes sir, USA is using Paki land for transporting equipment to Afg... But they are very lenient to Pakistan too. Without using Pakiland, they can destroy these areas trough missiles and arial attacks from US based super-carriers. But that will be devastating for Pakistan. Do, you feel the threat of turning back the clock from 6th century arab to stone age had no substance in it? How the initial attack on Taliban started?...
What do you want? NATO forces to use more powerful bombs from USS Nimitz or small raids using Apache?

Re: # 61 Major you have studied and concluded correctly.
More loyal and royals.
Once after Russian revolution a communist leaders said, it was not difficult to take care of landlords but peasants were hard nuts to crack still lingering to old ways and fedual ways. Some times It comes to my mind when you use new shoes they make noise initially, even dead animal shows anger and compalins even dead , americans are stean rolling and insulting and our national leaders do not even make is noise. There is more mental slavery than physical. Hopefully even with lost cause this is first sign of diffiance. Hope for more balanced ways. Good day.

in logon main itna hausla nahin hai madani sahib , these feudals were the procurors of british and the muslims of punjab and pashtun settled areas were the most reliable mercenaries of english east india company and brits till 1947 and in case of pakistan till now

it is fiction to state that the sikhs conquered afghanistan....they did capture afghan territories east of khyber pass....their western limit of advance was mardan jamrud bannu rakhni line....yes a Muslim sikh force invaded afghanistan in first afghan war to support shah shuja as part of tripartite agreement , but thee is a difference between invasion and capturing , kabul off course was captured in 1839 by an East India Company force

Kayani telling Americans silently to stop invading and killing pakistanis. Otherwise no fueling of american machine. The life line of American forces is path from karachi to Afghanistan. We may suffer due to no payment for not operating pipeline of logistic. But american forces will be without supplies.
Americans up to now took Pakistan for granted and gave damn. Now they will know better. American govt official will be dropping to beg to start and refuel War machine.
They will understand like sex and air when you have sufficient it is of no importance but without that you are miserable and die. Kayani is taking american army bosses to school and lessons in Humility. Very Ironic. I think Son in Law of ZAB is screwing americans and giving lessons. The
entry of president is dramatic thrashing American war machine.

Re: # 40
Majumder....
Sikhs have conquered Afghanistan. Asoka's empire do spanned upto Gandhar. The matter is, who wants to own such area, where people are barbaric and non-productive. If you attack Afghans in Afghanistan, then you are in disadvantegous position. You can watch the movie Beast of War.
Now the same Afghans attack India through plains, will definiteltely loose the battle.
About your 6ft stuff, I don't think that matters at all. Vietcong guerilas thrashed US marines. Gurkhas are mostly bellow 6ft, but best fighters...

Hamid....
Let the Jihadis handle USA first. I don't think USA treats ordinary Pakistanis in different light than that of extreame Jihadis in North West Pakistan. Red Mosque and the gunny sack covering, 6th century beduine female clones were housed the capital city of Ialamabad (perfect name of a place to host such institution). Your Pakistani media showed that. Any Paki origin named after your "holy prophet" is strip searched in all the international airports of USA. Nice tribute to Pakis. Some reflection of that in the Gallup polls.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102640/Americans-Attitudes-Toward-Pakistan- Largely-Negative.aspx

It is not the matter of NWFP/Tribals alone. It is something different.....

Your utopian scheme, in all probability, will not work (attacking India). Do you think this SU30-MKI ( Fighter) + Tu22M3 (Bomber) will produce different result than that of F-15E Strike Eagle ( Fighter) + B1 Lancer ( Bomber) ? Most probably not. What holds India back is 15 crore arab slaves inside India. If India can get rid of it, Pakistan will return back from 6th century Arab land to stone age. Whether China intervenes to prevent that, that needs to be observed.

Re: # 48

allah mian,

... that is why i have been advocating a war against india - that way we can move all these wild-eyed jihadis to kashmir and get them busy killing horrible hindoos instead of their fellow moslems ...... this way we can kill two birds with one stone and get rid of the bamboo so that we don't have to listen to the dang flute .......

.... i think i will write a letter to king zardari and his sipah-silar kiyani to see if they can move these poor bas*a*ds form bajaur to srinagar ....

Re: # 30

[[[ ...if pakistan becomes a part of this disaster, then, eventually, the usa is going to pack its bags, in defeat, like it is doing in iraq, and will leave....]]]


bulleya, I must say that you are one of the few people I have met who
have actually worked towards earning their sobriquet. I am back on
chowk after a long time - and its refreshing to know that you remain
as clueless as only you can be.

Re: # 47

[[[ #40 majumdar bhai: rest assured afghans are not 10 feet tall.

I can vouch for that - I used to play football with them as a kid in
Delhi. They were primarily refugees living around the Amar Colony/ Lajapat Nagar area.

Not only are they not 10 feet tall - they suck at football too !

... keeping the primitive horrible hindoos in check...

Hamid sir - the correct spelling is *primitive horrible hindus*

#44 Posted by naeemchaudry on September 5, 2008 9:11:08 am
.............
ALL OF YOU OUT THERE IN THE WESTERN WORLD .... REMEMBER THAT DAY IS NOT VERY FAR OFF WHEN WE WILL HAVE A LEADER OF THE LIKE OF IMAM KHOMEINI .....

Bhai,
Pehlay Zardari tau hazzam kar lainay dau yaar, phir Khomeni ki baat bhi kar lain gay, zara time lagta hai in cheezo peh.

re:46 & re:51
I think Naeem is being Sarcastic.

Regards,

Faruk

It is exactly the kind of verbal excretions we see from the poster at #44 that have taken Pakistan to where it is now. One still remembers in the 60s Pakistan was considered a westernised country much more as compared to India, one has graphic memories of an article in The National Geographic where West Pakistanis were projected as sophisticated and prosperous( as for India, only poverty was publicised by the Western media) what with one of the photographs showing a Karachi family gathering around a Western style buffet table laid out with goodies. May be the PR was good, yet the image was there, buttressed by cosy relations with the Americans and all. In contrast, today the name Pakistan evokes images of backwardness, Islamic fundamentalism, poverty, illiteracy, military dictatorships, nuclear black market, honour killings,export of terrorism, the list of negatives is endless, hardly anything positive. It evokes hate in such Muslim countries as Algeria as it is blamed for exporting terrorists and terrorism to that country and distrust in most of the world.
Our friend has proclaimed Pakistan is a nuclear power and awaiting the arrival of the next Caliph who will teach the Americans a lesson. As for the Pakistanis being in possession of a nuclear bomb there is no need to publicise it , the poster may note, it is already permanently in the sights of Pentagon. The more the likes of this poster brag, closer appears the Dooms Day for Pakistan and its much revered nuclear capability.
What is apparently required is debrainwashing so that all the lies that they have been fed over the last six decades are erased and the Pakistanis start seeing the world more objectively. It is sad that so many Pakistanis themselves are talking about the possible break-up of their country. It is really time to look back at the past 60 years and see how from the ill advised aggression of Kashmir in 1948 and the assasination of LAK in 1951 things have just been getting worse for the Pakistani nation (a misnomer here, for Pakistan has really been unable to metamorphose itself into a nation state).
As for the outbursts of the Pakistani Foreign Minister against the American transborder raid, take it easy , Pal, you lost your sovereignty way back in the 80's when Zia ul Haque (one wonders why can't Pakistan be a normal state where elected representatives decide what is good for the country and not some broad chested buffoon in Khakis)decided to lay bare all of Pakistan to Americans and all kinds of terrorists from the wide world of Islam in their war in Afghanistan, welcomed and even invited the Afghan refugees(some 2 million are unwilling to go back, one is told).
Very difficult to find something gladdening to write, sadly.

Tahmed32:

Getting bombed back to the stone age is a well known reason for Pakistan's U-turn and becoming a "partner" in the War on Terror.

Naeemchaudary,
If you are such as "Nuclear Power" then why didn't you explode "da bum" during Kargil? Why was India able to shove you back to the other side of the LoC inspite of you having the vantage positions in the hills?

hamidm:

"the way i see it, this is a great opportunity for pakistan to work with the america and the rest of the civilized world in getting rid of islamic fundamentalists (including jihadis and 'harmless' madrassa students) once and for all ..... "

be careful for what you wish for. If the islamic fundamentalists and madrass students are neutralized once and for all, then who fight fight the "occupying" horrible hindu forces in Kashmir?

And how will you enjoy Merlot relaxing in a shikara on the Dal Lake?

#40 majumdar bhai: rest assured afghans are not 10 feet tall. as for history - every dog has his day. The russians, arabs, turks, persians, romans, greeks, british, french, germans, japanese, chinese, sikhs, hindus, mongols vietnamese..the list goes on... can all lay claim if they wanted to have having given bloody noses at one time or another to equally strong, if not far stronger, opponents than the afghans.

So dont fall into the same trap as romair of repeating what you heard without thinking.

Re: # 44

naeem mian,

..... can you tell me what pakistan is going to do with nuclear weapons - drop them on new york? .... how will they get them there - on pia? ...... pakistan's nuclear assets can be neutralized in a matter of hours if it comes to that, so please stop spouting nonsense ........our bomb are only good for keeping the primitive horrible hindoos in check ....... if you don't remember there wer other 'nuclear powers' like n. korea, kazakistan, ukraine, south africa and libya that have been neutralized ..... it took one bombing missioin to bring gaddafi to his senses ..... the ayatollahs are next

..... the way i see it, this is a great opportunity for pakistan to work with the america and the rest of the civilized world in getting rid of islamic fundamentalists (including jihadis and 'harmless' madrassa students) once and for all ..... and from the looks of it, it seems that zardari has already agreed to do this ..... the only thing pakistan is going to do is call in the us ambassador for chai and samosas and 'protest' every now and then ...... it is the right strategy because the unwashed masses don't know what is good for them ......

A dose of reality amidst the general harping in Pakistan, and by someone who actually knows what he is talking about:

But in the midst of the general rhetorical fervour in the two houses of parliament, some took courage to differ, like Senator Abdul Rahim Mandokhel of the Pakhtunkhwa Milli Awami Party who said it were foreign militants, including Arabs, Uzbeks and Chechen, who had captured Pakistani territory and compromised the country’s sovereignty which “the government cannot defend� and accused unspecified politicians of conniving with them by not speaking against them.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/09/05/top1.htm

We the Pakistanis would like to remind all that we are neither IRAQIS nor AFGHANIS (No Offence meant or intended) becuase we are a Nuclear Power. Any escalation could lead to disastaous results for the yankees!!!
Taliban are and have always been the trump card for the Pakistani nation....
Just imagine what would happen to the American and the Allied forces if we stop containing them in Pakistani territory.
Just imagine the day when the Pakistani nation gets a leader who would refuse to bow to american pressure and
ALL OF YOU OUT THERE IN THE WESTERN WORLD .... REMEMBER THAT DAY IS NOT VERY FAR OFF WHEN WE WILL HAVE A LEADER OF THE LIKE OF IMAM KHOMEINI .....

see - the "good" thing about pakis is that they still love their lives more than they hate the kaffirs... not like the bedouins... On pain of death and destruction - you can make paki see the error of his ways... a bedouin never sees the error of his ways, he is incorrigible...

So an all out attack in pakiland will work wonders - that's the first thing US should have done... Powell, in fact, was ready to do that - but Mushy GUBOed up and "saved" pakis from the wrath of the niggah...

or may be just delayed the inevitable... Because Obama is a very different niggah altogether :)

Re: # 41
[...This does not necessarily mean that the Nato forces will attack Pakistan; that would be disastrous for them and a sure way to talebanise Pakistan...]

Nah, not at all... if nato forces take out pakiland establishment just the way they did with saddam - everything will work out... because, it's paki army that sustains taliban and all sorts of other islamic riff-raff

Pakiland is not a bedouin land, depsite what pakis think and try to be... these are pakis, you hit them hard they will fall in line...

I have never seen such a consensus among western countries as it does now with respect to Pakistan and Afghanistan ; it was not there for Iraq, not for Iran, not for Vietnam, nor for Cuba, nor for China. The only other recent case was that for action in Bosnia and Serbia.

This does not necessarily mean that the Nato forces will attack Pakistan; that would be disastrous for them and a sure way to talebanise Pakistan. They also cannot jeopardise the logistic support provided by Pakistan.

While Musharraf was adept at running with the hare and hunting with the hounds, he also created a trust deficit for Pakistan which is his legacy for Zardari and Kayani.

And let's not forget, Taleban are still not without their supporters in the Pakistani establishment; the likes of Shireen Mazari are still alive and kicking.

The way ahead is too murky for any kind of predictions; all one can say is that it's a new ballgame now: aagay aagay dekhiye hota hai kya?

Tahmed sahib,

Afghans may scare the wits out of you Conquerors of Your Own Civilian Governments.

They do scare the wits out of us Hindoos. Besides they have given a bloody nose to every foreigner who has tried to capture them- Mughals, Sikhs, Persians, Brits, Russians. Why do you think USA would be any different?

Regards

Re: # 29

{go back to using khuda hafiz instead of allah hafiz ..}
changing to allah hafiz is a profitable business for the crooked leadership.

If the Americans, with an official military presence, have not been able to contain the Taliban of Afghanistan, then why do they think that these sting operations would do any permanent damage to the Pakistani Taliban? If killing everyone was the intention then why cart in soldiers, instead of a predator attack? The reason obviously was to create a headline, because predator attacks are somewhat "becoming the norm".

But this attack comes at a time when Pak Army is dealing decisive blows to the Taliban in Bajur and Swat. It also comes at a time when common people in Swat and Bajur are rising up against the Taliban. At such a time it is attacks like these that provide the Taliban with the ideological and moral sustenance that they so desperately need right now, and the Americans it seems are more than happy to provide that.

HP's #16 provides a valid explanation behind this madness, and that is the upcoming US elections. which is completely crazy, and shows the level of commitment and sincerity that the US leadership has with its "effort" in Afghanistan.

"This is a direct assault on the sovereignty of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan expect that the armed forces of Pakistan would rise to defend the sovereignty of the country and give a befitting reply."

I see Pakistani Augusta class sub-marine in manhattan harbor already...for this "befitting reply". Please tell Owais Ghani to use his mouth the part he uses to chew his food next time rather than use his other mouth where he stores beef jerkys.

bulleya #30 "iraqis were not known for fighting....afghanis are legendary in this area."

the Genius of Kakul speaks!! the sad part is, I have heard this kind of standard gibberish from other graduates of Kakul University too.

Afghans may scare the wits out of you Conquerors of Your Own Civilian Governments. But they are flesh and blood, not supermen. Nor, despite tall claims, have ever been more than a middling military presence outside their barren mountains that no one wants to waste time trying to make a seat of power.

Re: # 30

captain cluless,

...... "the usa is extremely weak in such planning....despite spending $4000 billion or so in iraq, it has been defeated....."

..... where did you hear that ? ...... by all accounts we have won the war in iraq - now it is just a mopping up operation ..... us casulaties are way down, baghdad has more hours of electricity than islamabad, the mahdi army has disappeared from the scene, anbar province was just handed over to the iraqis and by the end of next year us forces will be confined to a couple of large bases ......

..... we have to maintain our presence in iraq for the next ten fifteen years to make sure the bedouins don't go back to their bad ways and as a staging area for a clean up operation in iran ...... the mullahs of iran have to be ousted and the people liberated - that nonsense has gone on long enough! ...... other bases in pakistan and afghanistan will make things easier ......

Sriram Allah #33: You cannot be All-Knowing if you believe what Musharraf says.

bulleya 32.

"pakistan needs to tell the usa to pack its bags and leave pakistan, and fight its own wars....regardless of what the usa's reactions happen to be...."

Really?? I guess you havn't read "In the Line of Fire".

"On September 12, 2001, then-U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell telephoned the Pakistani leader with the ultimatum: "You are either with us or against us," Musharraf recalled.

The next day, Powell's then deputy, Richard Armitage, tele-phoned the chief of Pakistan's top spy agency, the directorate of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), with an even sterner warning.

"In what has to be the most undiplomatic statement ever made, Armitage ... told the (ISI) director general not only that we had to decide whether we were with America or with the terrorists, but that if we chose the terrorists, then we should be prepared to be bombed back to the Stone Age," Musharraf recounted."

#30 by bulleya

....despite spending $4000 billion or so in iraq, it has been defeated.....

Captain Clueless as usual speaking from his a$$. Someone please call Arjun to knock some sense into him. The man has already concluded that the US has lost in Iraq

$400 not $4000...

...any strategic military operation carried out by the usa is going to be a disaster....the usa is extremely weak in such planning....despite spending $4000 billion or so in iraq, it has been defeated.....

hence afghanistan is going to be a bigger disaster than iraq...iraqis were not known for fighting....afghanis are legendary in this area....the usa's defeat there is going to be even bigger than in iraq...

...if the democrats commit more troops there, it will only result in more american troops dying...

...so pakistan has two choices...either become a part of this disaster....or distance itself from it, and let the afghanis and americans fight it out on their own...

...if pakistan becomes a part of this disaster, then, eventually, the usa is going to pack its bags, in defeat, like it is doing in iraq, and will leave....pakistan will be stuck with all the blowback....

...this is what happened in the first afghan war, when pakistan became a frontline state.....klashnikovs, drugs, taliban, etc. are all a product of joining that war...

....the second war is going to result in suicide bombings, constant warfare in nwfp, the pakistani taliban etc....

pakistan needs to tell the usa to pack its bags and leave pakistan, and fight its own wars....regardless of what the usa's reactions happen to be....

after that it should let the americans and taliban fight it out....be it in the tribal areas or in afghanistan....i think the taliban and tribals are strong enough to look after themselves....

in this war, smart money is on the usa losing and taliban winning....

if pakistan joins in, then it loses on both sides....hence it should not take sides and stay away....

i cannot think of any other country supporting the usa, if, as a result, it had 160+ suicide bombings, within its borders....spain had one explosion in spain, and it left the iraq war....france has recently lost ten soldiers, and its govt. is having difficulty convincing the french that afghanistan is their war...ditto on canada and holland...

the usa cannot win wars in this region....hence it is not a good idea to became a party to its wars.....they will leave from afghanistan....and will leave it a bigger mess than they left iraq.....

..... thank god for america! ..... this is a great opportunity to wipe out the taliban and their sympathisers in pakistan once and for all ..... as part of this campaign, pakistan should shut down all madrasas, round up jihadi sympathisers, send mullahs to re-education camps, throw out the hudood law, dismantle the sharia court, spay the girls of jamia hafsa and go back to using khuda hafiz instead of allah hafiz ......

8. What would be the immediate tasks that the new PM and president should focus on?

Reconciliation and less emphasis on the power of the army to bring about a military solution.More emphasis on Soft Power , better intelligence gathering.

9. The protests that we are seeing are mainly confine to the lawyers, lawmakers and journalists, which are considered the elite groups in the country. Some were said to be paid to carry out these protests against Musharraf and there were those who enjoyed the limelight from the media. Besides, the number of protesters are small, around 100 or so. The common people are no where to be seen. In fact, I have a feeling that Musharraf is widely popular among the common people. What is your take on this? Are these protests genuine? Do you think the media has been biased?

The common people are apathetic . They are more worried if they will have something to eat the next day.But remember the Bolsheviks with just a hard core of 10,000 captured power in Russia.

Re: # 24

Harish

Public discourse is monopolized by anti-Americanism, remnants of the Jihadi network, military establishment followed by throngs of poorly informed people.

These are not excuses but facts, what Pakistan needs to do and cannot do is dismantle this Jihadi network in the form of Madaris, religious charities and their offshoots.

Things look bleak, situation is getting from bad to worse.

True Arif bhai. The US has gone into other countries on the flimsiest of pretexts, but with Pakistan it has been extraordinarily patient. It has poured in billions of dollars, provided the technology and equipment all in the hope that it will clean up the mess. But Pakistan doesn't want to do anything; so the US is left with no choice but to do it on its own.

I have been saying this for a very longtime now, either Pakistan solves the problem or the problem will be solved for them. Had we taken responsibility then the outcome would have been in our control, now that we abdicated our responsibilities, we have also conceded control to others.

Why is it that when the Taliban/Al Qaeda blow up their targets and in the process scores of civilians get killed, no one raises a peep (except perhaps for Masadi and a couple of others) but when US missile/fighter strikes kill civilians, people invariably focus on the civilian casualties alone?

re: #22 nazarhayatkhan

...I guess not everyone thinks like that atleast in NWFP... you are probably represnting the Pakhtun of the plains (Peshawar valley).... go ask the tribal Pakhtun!!

Havn't read the article.

Terrorists (religious fanatics) are crazy nuts. They only understand the brute force.

Pakistan Army is already attacking them. If the Americans chip in, so be it. It only serves our cause.

Rest all is BS about sovereignity Blah Blah Blah.

Better to live in peace like the rest of the world instead of being a victim of these Nuts' recommended life style.

regards

NHK

One thing that is especially dangerous for Pakistan is the fact that it is Democrats who consider Pakistan to be the "just war" rather than Republicans.

When a Republican government goes to war, the opposing force has a built in 5th column - assorted Blame America Firsters, Peaceniks, Democrats in general.

OTOH, when a Dem government goes to power, even when it is absolutely in the wrong (Kosovo and lack of international legitimacy comes to mind) the Republicans end up falling in line and the Dems consider themselves to be the last people to go to war, hence when they do, they tend to be damn self righteous about the whole thing.

"They have decided that the centre of gravity of all the trouble is Pakistan.Right or wrong this appears to be the central US perception now."

Pavo - Rightly or Wrongly is a copout. You tell us your opinion - is the US right or wrong in assuming that the center of gravity lies in the US?

MAJOR PARAGRAPH CENSURED IN THE ARTICLE

Seen in this context a major US operation aimed at reducing Pakistan in effectiveness of a small or large dimension may commence in end 2008 and be finalised by mid 2009.This could involved selective surgical strikes, a black and white ultimatum , physical invasion assisted by India,outbreak of war of secession in any of Pakistan's smaller provinces,assasination of key leaders or a leader and finally manipulating things in such a way that martial law is imposed in Pakistan.

MAJOR PARAGRAPH OMMITED;---

Seen in this context a major US operation aimed at reducing Pakistan in effectiveness of a small or large dimension may commence in end 2008 and be finalised by mid 2009.This could involved selective surgical strikes, a black and white ultimatum , physical invasion assisted by India,outbreak of war of secession in any of Pakistan's smaller provinces,assasination of key leaders or a leader and finally manipulating things in such a way that martial law is imposed in Pakistan.

Btw, Zalmay went in to damage control mode today too by downplaying his role as the Pentagon rep who helped move pawns in Pakistan for a safe Mush exit and Zardari elections to the Presidency.

Two contradictory statements in one press briefing:

"No, I've not offered him any political advice," Khalilzad told reporters. He said communications with Zardari "have been social contacts, for the most part. It has been 'How are you?' . . . 'When can we get together?' "

The U.S. envoy said that he has an extensive network of friendships with influential figures in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan. "Those contacts and relationships have been useful for the United States," he said.

heheheh!

I think in an ongoing conflict, analyzing every incident and worrying about the messages and intentions is always fraught with dangers of out-analyzing the situation. The US admin has worked hard to get to this point and I think we had discussed the US plan a long time ago. What we are witnessing is the unfolding of the plan.

1. In Pakistan, after the March 9, 2007 Mush debacle, the US went in to high gear in changing the face of the Pak government. The goal was clearly to save the army from the growing wrath of the people of Pakistan.

2. When it became apparent that Musharraf can’t maintain the civilian face, he too was let go and now Zardari is the new horse.

3. Like Musharraf, Zardari too is committed on the War in FATA. The CIA/State Dept outed his connections with the Pentagon and that is a little bump that has to be handled. It is hard for Zardari to maintain a pro-US public face on the War in FATA. So this incident and the fake outrage by the Pakistan Senate and NA, just appears to be damage control. Some folks in the remote villages paid the price of infighting between the CIA and the Pentagon.

4. Pakistan army Chief was in the US after he went aboard Lincoln .There is no sign that the Pak army is not committed with the US. The Pak army was fully aware of the situation and encouraged the unanimous response by the Pakistani officials and the NA. This was just face saving fake response to maintain the façade in the Pakistan.

There is no change in the strategy by the US. We might see an increase in incidents like this as the elections in US heat up. The Dems, if they win, will not change the policy but the Republicans can’t afford to be beaten due to feared Dem vendetta after the elections. The intensity in the war on Terror increases the Republican candidate’s chances. So, the domestic US politics influences some actions in FATA too.

Now read these two appropriate comments from influential think tanks. It is not hard to see where they are coming from.

C. Christine Fair, a South Asia specialist at the RAND Corporation, suggested that the raid did mark a policy shift, and cautioned about the potential consequences of the new strategy.
"Without integrating these attacks within a wider Pakistan strategy – which the US government does not have – we risk a serious blowback which could make things worse, not better," Fair told IPS. "Ninety percent of our logistics still move through Karachi port, so attacking Pakistani targets when we are still dependent on them makes little sense."

Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer now at the Brookings Institution, argued last month that the US should be willing to use force against "very high value targets" in Pakistan, but cautioned against "loose talk about larger military options."

"The notion of moving NATO forces into the FATA is crazy," Riedel said at a Brookings panel. "We will only spread the cancer deeper into Pakistan...Talk about these issues is extraordinarily counterproductive. It only feeds the paranoia and conspiracy theories of the Pakistani political milieu."

Re: # 14 There is danger of American encouraging B.Stan to go seperate way. They are propagating why not Rich baloach than poor pakistani. All that gas and more potential gas and mineral wealth is tempting foreign powers. There is sufficient accumilated fuel to start fire. B. Leader wanted in pakistan is living openly in A.Stan and can that happen without American approval ? It appears USA has some evil designs on Pakistan ? In last century to control Panama Canal new country Panama was made breaking old country.

Major Sahib You write "In dealing with the Americans I discovered in 1996 and this idea was successively reinforced that at state level they never act at random. Every action, smallest in size has a grand strategic idea. Its time that soldiers and politicians realise this fact and start preparing for the worst to come."

Your premonotion and hearing of distant drums is correct.
It reminded me of Hindustani Singers. When Giant Singers are going for "bada Khayal" etc many times they start with "alapi". In that process they basically express and explain notes before staring for Vilambit Ektal leading to Drut Trital ( everything is predetermined) , and mental trial for notes. This action appears like "American Alapi" the just little sign of coming things.
American politicians/ army has lost respect for Pakistani political and military Leadership and they are giving what they think about. Actions speak louder. The response shown by both civil military leadership to american actions justify american down grading of both. Future president made statements which feels oppressed elite locals are more loyal than royals. Now this habits of little "protesting" and then justifying American actions like this is Pakistan's war etc. Slave mentality and practice and habits leads to exactly same slve character.
Pakistans Future will be Cambodia.
Hope Things change for better.
Good day.

Mike....
There is no point arguing with arab slave/islamists like masadi etc...They will be fed by US govt. and still they try to create trouble for the same people, who are feeding them. This islamic phenomenon is quite global.

India had sufferred such trouble (terrorists sneaking from Pakistan into India and killing people, attacking civilian infrastructure) for long time. India have even handed the list of islamic organisations and location of islamic training centres (aka terrorist training camps) just accross the border in Pakistan. It was of no use. The same sh** logic; they can not prevent people from sneaking into India. Even they will not stop breeding ultra-islamic forces (Laskar e Taibya... etc.).
Honesty is something alien to Pakistani (may be generic to islam) establishment. We are experiencing that for decades. The Mumbai bomb blast mastermind, Dawood Ibrahim, was in Karachi for years. He got his daughter married to Pakistani hero Javed Miandad. Still Pakistan was denying that he was in Karachi!!!
It would have been better for USA to take action based on logic than emotion. Destroy the terror infested areas than try humanitarian way, to convert them into civilised human.
The tragic part is, the area currently US and NATO forces are bombing, once, was centre for learning, art etc. It's name was Gandhar and flourished as part of ancient India for centuries. The medaval arab beduinism destroyed everything. The beautiful cave carving, monastary/temples and adjacent schools ( path shala in sanskrit) was hallmark of this region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara
Upto Kushans, it was fine. After islamic invastion it slipped into extreame darkness...

US Commando Raid in South Waziristan

A.H Amin

03 September 2008


The US military was accused today of having sent a force of commandos across the border from Afghanistan into Pakistan on a raid in which 20 people were reportedly killed, including women and children.

Both Nato and the separate US-led coalition in Afghanistan denied any knowledge of the pre-dawn attack, which local residents said involved both American and Afghan troops backed by helicopter gunships. But it was immediately seen as both undermining sovereignty and presenting a challenge to the coalition govermnet led by Yousuf Raza Gillani, the object of an unsuccessful assassination in Rawalpindi this morning.

"It is outrageous," Owais Ahmed Ghani, the governor of North West Frontier province, said in a statement on the incursion. "This is a direct assault on the sovereignty of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan expect that the armed forces of Pakistan would rise to defend the sovereignty of the country and give a befitting reply."

This comes from a total amteur who has already by his incompetent handling taken Baluchistan to the brink of secession.Now the same man is in NWFP province in governors seat.All set to create chaos in the NWFP also.

The US air mounted raid , there are no coalition forces in this area was mounted from a forward airbase in Paktika province of Afghanistan near Sharan.Their could be multiple aims of this raid.To psychologically harass the Pakistani state.To tell the tribals that the USA can strike at will anywhere in the tribal areas.To spread panic in the area so that any major anti US figure in the area leaves his hideout and changes location and is in the process discovered.

The US attack was logical and natural.They have decided that the centre of gravity of all the trouble is Pakistan.Right or wrong this appears to be the central US perception now.

Seen in this context a major US operation aimed at reducing Pakistan in effectiveness of a small or large dimension may commence in end 2008 and be finalised by mid 2009.This could involved selective surgical strikes, a black and white ultimatum , physical invasion assisted by India,outbreak of war of secession in any of Pakistan's smaller provinces,assasination of key leaders or a leader and finally manipulating things in such a way that martial law is imposed in Pakistan.

The Americans are no longer dealing with the Old Fox Musharraf.The army it is dealing with now is a semi defeated force.Besieged in its own country's western provinces.At war with its people , or at least a substantial albeit effective minority.

In dealing with the Americans I discovered in 1996 and this idea was successively reinforced that at state level they never act at random.Every action,smalles in size has a grand strategic idea.Its time that soldiers and politicians realise this fact and start preparing for the worst to come.

CIA mike writes "masadi:
Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago. "

CIA mike, how goes? Baal? Haal?

Your non-response tells me that you are completely stumped in the intellectual field when faced by my arguments (just as you probably were a year back) and as bankrupt as the US elite in the morality department, probably more than you were a year ago..

That said,
Have a nice day living in a fools paradise and drinking kool aid,

TNI Masadi

masadi:
Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago.

CIA mike writes "We are in Afghanistan because we were attacked on 9/11. Before that we did not intervene when the Taliban was ruling that country. We did help Bosnia and Kosovo to gain freedom from tyranny and ethnic cleansing."

Salam and greetings of peace (that your country denies the world) CIA mike. How goes? Raazi Baazi? Baal Bacha?

Not only invading Iraq but invading the country of Afghanistan over unproven allegations without giving peace a chance was just as barbaric. Regarding Bosnia and Kosovo, the US intervened long after the ethnic cleansing had been done and it was not humanitarian, it was for the purpose of establishing camp Bondsteel. This base lies directly astride the Trans-Balkan pipeline that the US in the process of building. When you look at the world scene and how US interference is sending the vast majority of humankind to hell through starvation, and impoverishing its own, and embarking on every nonsense military adventure overseas to keep its "warfare state" kicking while try to dismantle the "welfare state" that it was forced to incorporate post depression, you know how barbaric, dirty and full of stink the mentality of the US elite is. The Pakistan Army if it was a people's army should have blown those copters right out of the sky....

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

#7 Posted by Leadenwinter�
I disagree with your statement “.. All very reminiscent of Stalin's famous opinion that it’s not in any way important to win when it’s more important to ensure that everyone else loses...�
I am no naive to say that every US action is good. For example, invading Iraq was wrong and stupid. We are in Afghanistan because we were attacked on 9/11. Before that we did not intervene when the Taliban was ruling that country. We did help Bosnia and Kosovo to gain freedom from tyranny and ethnic cleansing.
I hope you give credit when credit is due and criticize when criticism is warranted

#6 mike195879 The current track record of american foreign policy suggests ill will towards all humanity, never mind Pakistan.. all very reminiscent of Stalin's famous opinion that its not in any way important to win when its more important to ensure that everyone else loses...

#4 rabiawsti:

Thanks for not calling me a CIA agent like some others did and will.

You are right. This attack will be used by some to inflame the Pakistani public. American government had been very patient and careful to not to cross the border.

Unfortunately the political establishment of Pakistan is unable and unwilling to tackle terrorism problem in the tribal area. I read almost every day good innocent Pak citizens are getting blown away. The Pak army does not want to take action without support of civilian government and I don’t blame them.
The Daily Times editorial “Interpreting two ‘warnings’ is very thoughtful and succinct about problem Pakistan is facing.
Here in US, people want Pakistan to be peaceful and prosperous country. We do not have any ill will towards Pakistan. We have many Pakistanis contributing to the prosperity of this country and they are good citizens.

The end begins.. With Iran's oil in their sights the lovely Americans and their glorious leader Obama are going to invade come november.

Theres a month left to clean up the mullahs.. Bit of a tall order no ?

mike: I guess the question to you is, were the benefits from this incursion to your side worth the shitstorm that is going to take place as a direct result of it?

We will see many post like “it is a blatant violation of Pakistan's sovereignty� … blah blah blah.

Pakistan's sovereignty in this tribal area is a joke. The Frontier Corps are ineffective, ill-equipped and some of them in cahoots with Taliban. What you need is Pakistan army regulars who are well trained and well equipped etsblishing the writ of the state.

CIA mike, it is not strange at all, most of the innocents the US military kills are women and children because the men are outside the structures that these moronic barbarians attack. They do similar things in Afghanistan. This act was illegal and a gross violation of International Law. Both those helicopters with the retarded morons should have been shot down....

have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

It is really strange that whenever US/NATO attack tribal area target only ‘women and children are killed’.

Unfortunately US attack was necessary, logical and natural as Pakistan.

The Daily Times states:
“Some of them were not identified but the charge that many were women and children is obviously state propaganda in order to provoke public opinion. Earlier, a missile attack in South Waziristan killed locals along with two Canadian Muslims who had come to Al Qaeda camps to fight jihad against America and Pakistan.�
The same article goes on to say:
“Two warnings have been registered. The one by Al Qaeda is an invitation to the Pakistani state to commit suicide. The one by America says do something about the Tribal Areas and the writ you have lost there and do it fast or else. The first is deliberately anarchist in its approach; the second is probably unwilling to understand the constraints of the post-jihad Pakistani state. The one by America says do something about the Tribal Areas and the writ you have lost there and do it fast or else.�