Honor Killings in Babakot

Re: # 21, khurram, Ghalib's quoted couplet, and its relevance here, leaves me speechless. It condenses the whole story. Thanks for citing. Great intellect towering tall.
"ye masaile taswaf ...."

Your observation about Karen Armstrong's quote by akcheema is right on the mark. Again, nothing more to say.

PS: In the first line, I think, 'hai' comes first.

PPS: akcheema, we will talk more later at some point.

Re: #18 akcheema
She also stated this in one of her lectures at King's College, London:

"A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect, "he" becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified."

What you don't realize is that this perfectly valid criticism can also be made from within Islam.

I think this is what quin was talking about in his ilog when he referred to worshipping 'mental constructs'.

As Ghalib said,
Parey sarhad-e-idrak say hai apna masjood
Qiblay ko ahl-e-nazar Qibla numa kehtay hain

'Qibla' here refers to the above mental construct.

Re: # 19; quin

like I said before, "Quranism" is the newfound growth industry amongst apologetics for Islam right now .... when the flaws are presented in B & W, the cop outs such as "interpretational differences" and other "fuzzy thinking touchy feely stuff" comes out as an excuse ....

.... quin ... call it "your islam/Quran" all you like ... and I for one will defend the right of anyone wanting to do that for personal consolation etc .... that's fair enough

... problem is we are fighting a political ideology here .... it's always been political! my debate with you is pure semantics but in reality I know what it means to you; same way it might mean something to me too .... but you are trying to present a "theological" argument without taking responsibility for the "other stuff" that goes on justified by the very book you hold so dear! and that's where the problem lies .... either "defend" your argument or don't put it forward to further you cause in the first place!

like I said before, will have a proper discussion about this in a couple of weeks .... can't maintain an un-interrupted presence here right now ... so

Khuda Hafiz for now

Re: # 18 akcheema,
I understand your point of view. The problem is how one defines 'Islam', even "borne out through history".

First, there are so many ways and so many interpretations. Second, I am not talking about an interpretation of mine. For me it more like an experience. I am not into theology or logic of proving this or that. It is matter of a personal encounter with a living energy. It is an experience. The last thing I would ever want to do is to label it.

Labeling and categorizing may be good for understanding things around us on one hand - but on the other, it is so very detrimental when it is used indiscriminately in the realms which cannot be encompassed by it and thus they (labels) create only misunderstandings. That is our tragedy - paradox of linguistics. Tower of Babel.

I greatly liked you liking of Karen Armstrong. And thanks for expanding on that a bit. Our Muslim intellectuals can learn a lot from such experiences.

As I said, we all are seekers, but we also find a fountain from where flows the nourishment for us. Someone has said, all these traditions are streams in different dominions and everyone nourishes from their stream in their dominion. I am proud to be blessed by the fount which flows from Quran and that suffices me. All else which I learn is nourished by that stream too and I never close my heart from learning from anywhere.

I find that all the divisions within humanity, and the divisions of humanity with nature and universe, all the divisions I find artificial. And who taught me that: it is Quran. How? ...it is an experience.

For now, shab bekhair

Re: # 17; quin

I am glad I saw your response .... please call your "interpretation" anything but don't label it as "your Islam" or understanding for that matter! It is NOT Islam and in your heart of hearts, you know it too .... it has borne out through history, I am afraid!

As for Karen Armstrong, I am an ardent fan .... mainly because of her constant quest for knowledge and a general dissatisfaction with scripture (as we know it); she has gone through phases like Catholicism, becoming a nun, atheism, agnosticism and now free-lance monotheism. That is perfectly acceptable to me but don't label it as Islam/Christianity/Judaism ... please! it confuses the issue!

She also stated this in one of her lectures at King's College, London:

"A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect, "he" becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified."

Will talk soon ... Khuda Hafiz for now

How to approach religion is not a topic which can be settled in one sitting - or in one lifetime for that matter.

One thing is sure, that it is never going to be resolved until people want to see things only with their linear thinking - in yes or no, in black and white, in right and wrong. Often the answer lies beyond the categories. The ‘kuans’ of Buddhism were meant to bring that reality closer to us. Only if we could expand our horizons.

On the other hand, there are many who have approached the Sacred Scriptures in a transcendental way. They don't find that it conflicts with their reason or logic. If I tell about my own approach, I may be blamed for being apologist of this or that. So I want to give example of Karen Armstrong. A non-religious scholar, trained in best tradition of academia, and then in her seeking she find wisdom in ancient scriptures. She studies them all, she contemplate on them and do research and write books. That is an interesting story worth knowing and following. Here I present an excerpt from her book "In the Beginning":

“In almost all cultures, scripture has been one of the tools that men and women have used to apprehend a dimension that transcends their normal lives. People have turned to their holy books not to acquire information but to have experience. They have encountered a reality there that goes beyond their normal existence but endows it with ultimate significance. They have given this transcendence different names ….., however we choose to describe or interpret it, it has been a fact of human life. We are constantly are of an ideal level that contrasts with world around us. We may not regard this realm as supernatural; we may prefer to find it in art, music or poetry rather than in a church or synagogue. But human being have persistently sought a dimension of existence that seems close to our normal lives and yet far from them. Scared scripture has been one of the principle means of introducing people to a world of ultimate truth, beauty and goodness.�

The key point is experience. She continues:

"But we have to know how to read our scriptures. They demand an imaginative effort that can sometimes be as perplexing and painful as Jacob’s wrestling match. The true meaning of scripture can never be wholly comprised in a literal reading of the text, since that text point beyond itself to a reality which cannot adequately be expressed in words and concepts. …..�

"...Scriptures ... enabled millions of men and women to know at some profound level that human life has an eternal dimension, even though they have not always been able to express this insight in logical, rational form. ...
[Scriptures] imply that it is a hard struggle to discern a sacred reality in the flawed and tragic conditions in which we live and that our experience will often be disconcerting or contradictory. Like Jacob, we will have to wrestle in the dark, denied the consolations of final certitude and experiencing at best only transient, elusive blessing. We may even find that we have been wounded in the course of our struggle"

The last sentence is reference to Biblical event of Jacob’s wrestling with God.

No matter how much we wish that scriptures either disappear, or read only one way or other, their reality will keep defying us all. We must learn to come to terms with it. And that is going to take a long time. Very long. All of us are seekers. Sincere seekers, the one those deny the scriptures, and those who follow it foolishly or wisely, all are seekers. And in our seeking is the ultimate deliverance whenever it will happen. It is not going to happen in my life time and neither I am the disposer of anyone’s affairs. So I am not trying to propagate one or other idea, neither I am apologists for one or other view point. I share in what I believe. And what I believe, that I see as clearly as daylight.
God bless you all.

Mutaal Mooquin

Re: # 15; rabia

the "re-interpretation" of religious text/scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with the text/scripture itself .... it is more to do with OUR OWN "cntemporary" sensitivities ...... God's word is infallible/unchangeable and written in "black & white" FOR ALL TIMES and there is (cannot be) any ambiguity about it

one example is (purely hypothetical) homosexuality .... God doesn't change His mind about how he feels from time to time! He is (supposed to be) beyond the confines of time .... it is our contemporary sensitivities and conveniences that urge us to "re-interpret" .... jewish/christian/muslim alike!

will be back properly in a couple of weeks to discuss this in more detail if you are interested

Khuda Hafiz for now

ok so when jewish rabbis overruled or re-interpreted aspects of the hebrew bible in the talmud did they all suddenly become atheists?

Re: # 11; quin
[[At least, my belief is that one learns from religion what one’s temperament wants to learn or one’s education allows one to learn. All religions are mired in contradictions and paradoxes. That is the nature of it. Why? It is long discussion.]]

if I had a dollar for the number of times I have heard this silly argument .... something "given" to us by an infallible god is either "all correct" or it is not ... simply NO TWO WAYS about it!

It either makes sense or it does not .... the rest is just an apologist's back-footed defence of the indefensible!! which is what you are quin sir .... AN APOLOGIST FOR YOUR confused, self-contradictory and divisive argument of a faith!

take care ..... for now

“…….often sanctified by Islamic authorities and such acts of violence are entirely religious in nature�.

That is it! “ISLAMIC AUTHORITIES� is an euphemism for the Muslim Church hence the 'Religion' and its OPERATIVES THE PRIESTS; similar to the Institutions of other Religions and Priests.
Every thing the Muslim people do in the name of their pagan customs is termed Islamic! The Muslim Church is the best follower of previous Religions, and has copied their tribal and pagan rules in the apocrypha in the name of Muhammad, which they call Hadis.
'Islam' is only an Arabic word-- for Quran is in Arabic language because Muhammad, the person was an Arab-- for an universal/natural code and there in is no Church and priesthood but only our own conscience(10-35,36)which should guide us.
By the way the verse on Rajam(stoning) , was written on piece of paper that was with Ayisha and strangely enough her GOAT ate it while she was mourning the death of her husband the Prophet (Bukhari etc)!!
Please refer to the Bible in Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:23,24. to see where the whole drama came from. With further delving into it , one may find the practice going even further back in human evolution.
Rashid

"The verses which were related to day to day affairs of that time, the one which you referred, must be seen in its historical context."
@ quin

That is where the problems start. Using that logic, let's not pick and run. The whole idea of religion, especially Islam should be seen in historical context. An ideology that worked for the Arabs back then CAN NOT be compatible with today's needs and the society today. Furthermore the 1400 year old logic, judgment and system can not guide today's life. Religion (Islam for that matter) has expired.
As for the core message, well, if the central book of a religion can not deliver its supposed "core message", it fails to deliver.
I would rather see 99% of the Muslim population not read the book and its verses - they don't get the context. They are too extreme to pick and choose...

Re: # 10 crazyghan,
I don't think anyone is saying that religion (for some or many) does not incite violence or does not exclude women etc.
At least, my belief is that one learns from religion what one’s temperament wants to learn or one’s education allows one to learn. All religions are mired in contradictions and paradoxes. That is the nature of it. Why? It is long discussion. For now, I just want to comment that the core wisdom of every religion is forgotten in the superficial details.
When I read those verses which I referred (where such crimes are mentioned) I see the glimpse of the core message. The verses which were related to day to day affairs of that time, the one which you referred, must be seen in its historical context.
The point which comes across looking at the whole life and character of the Prophet and the message which is discerned by reading the Sacred Text of Quran all leads to one thing: Sanctity and respect of life, in every shape and form.
Islam at its inception did give women many rights which were not available to them before Islam. That is the spirit of Quran. If we follow the spirit, we will always want to move forward, not go backward. We cannot read Quran just in literal way. Having said that, I agree many do read Quran in a very literal fashion. That mixed with level of education and understanding, and all other socio-political problems, such literal readings and misunderstanding about the real message of Quran become a deadly weapon in the hands of backward looking and / or power hungry people.
Lastly, the verses you have referred still cannot be said to justify the acts like killing of infants or women. As I said these verses must not be seen out of context.
I know then there is discussion about context and permanence etc., which is a long discussion with possibly no resolution. Therefore I usually tells myself, that I learn from Quran what I want to learn and what it wants to teach me. And I never have felt that it ever wanted to teach me violence or chauvinism.

For a different perspective, here is my take on the topic. Religion does not incite terrorism, does not incite violence, does not exclude and seclude women, does not order a cultural take over of the non-Arabs ... well, if Islam has nothing to do with any of these, do these beliefs and acts fall from the sky!? I don't think so.

Following are a few quotes that tell a different story:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.�

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.�

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.�
and others.

Stop repeating the story that Islam ended the burial of daughters. Move on. Furthermore, the bulk of honor killings happen in Islamic countries, are ignored and often sanctified by Islamic authorities and such acts of violence are entirely religious in nature.

# 7: Further to my previous posts, following are the references in Qur'an to the said subject (as far as I know):
6.140
6.151
16. 58-59
17.31
62.12
81.8-9
Also, kindly let me know about the interacts (URL or article (s))where you had such discussion. I am interested to see what transpired. Thanks

Re: # 7 philosopher, your note is heartwarming and I am grateful for that. I am happy to hear the voices like yours and MatloobZaman's. There are not very many and therefore are precious. Qur'an is our common humanity's heritage. Misunderstandings about it make my heart bleed. But I try to understand it for myself. I do feel urge to share my understanding and feelings about it through my renditions or comments. Therefore, such feedbacks and any constructive criticism is most welcome.
Regarding the subject of killing their children, Qur'an mentions this, 5 more times in addition to the earlier reference. One instance is in the powerful Surah "At Takweer (Overthrowing) which was posted by Viqram on his iLog. I am sure you will enjoy that too.
http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/68667/35288
"When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned -
For what crime she was killed;" - Quran (81: 8 -9) Tr. Yousaf Ali

Re: # 1 quin

wonderfull. I was looking for these verses but did not know the chapter number.

Let me say i am deeply impressed by you after reading your ilogs especialy the one explaining the meaning of "taqwa" and "khashia" I had almost the same interpretation in mind and discussed it in many interacts last year. You are much more fluent than me in putting these complex thoughts into words.

keep it up

Re: # 5
I am pleased to know that you go beyond plain reading that most of us are accustomed to, it certainly helps to indulge a layer deeper and "seek" to understand, and that certainly begins to make more sense as to how much on the real playing fields the scripture addresses the issues and concerns we come across in our life.
May the Almighty bless us with the opportunity to relate to what HE has blessed us with in the holy book which is not meant to be covered in preciously decorated covers and placed at heights we rarely reach out to clear cobwebs and dust.
I will most certainly refer to all the renditions that you mention as being posted in your ilogs inshaAllah.
May HE bless us with better understanding, ameen.

Re: # 2 MatloobZaman,
Thank you for your encouraging comments.
I share my renditions of Quran to share the sheer elation which I feel by doing that.
I keep doing the renditions as I read Quran - for me the best way to read Quran - as that way its living energy is transferred, which otherwise, in a passive reading may not as much transferred, at least in my case.
When I see a response like yours - it is doubly uplifting and it spurs me to do more. I am deeply indebted for that. In my iLog's I have posted some other renditions:

http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/68624/47644 - Al Qadr and Al Falaq
http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/68220/47644 - Al Asar
http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/67515/47644- Al Quariah
http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/68666/47644 - a poetic response on the two verse of Al Falaq

Your feedback is appreciated if you so incline to have a look. If you find any areas requiring improvement, I will be glad to hear.

I do not call this work as translations for a reason, as of course, you understand.

Mutaal Mooquin

Re: # 2 MatloobZaman,
Thank you for your encouraging comments.
I share my renditions of Quran to share the sheer elation which I feel by doing that.
I keep doing the renditions as I read Quran - for me the best way to read Quran - as that way its living energy is transferred, which otherwise, in a passive reading may not as much transferred, at least in my case.
When I see a response like yours - it is doubly uplifting and it spurs me to do more. I am deeply indebted for that. In my iLog's I have posted some other renditions:

Even in poetry it is so harsh. poor wretched girls.
In the nearest language, it always works.

Re: # 1
MashaAllah Quin
A nice rendition, may Allah SWT be pleased with you, ameen.

“When they hear the news of a daughter born
Their face turns dark, with grief they are torn
By the ill they see in the good news
With shame from people they hide and muse
Will they keep this shame or bury it in the dust
Both are evil choices and choose they must�

Qur'an 16: 58 -59 (lamenting and capturing the atrocious act of pre-Islamic Arabs when they used to bury their daughters at their birth - rendition by me)