Delhi Under Fright, Innocent Targeted

#172 Posted by tahmed32

Correct. There was NO Mughal army that was not dominated by Hindu Indians.

I would recommend you read Romila Thapar's books. Specially "Somanatha, the Many Voices of a History" She has handled the whole lie about the somnath with plenty of references.
Some of her books are in google books too. Or you can order from Amazon.

She is the most prominent and authentic Indian historian hated by the BJP/RSS types every where.

# 171 Posted by tahmed32

Listen, Islamist numbnuts. My reading comprehension is demonstrably amongst the very t in the world.

you said the following:

dm: more specifically - per your reading, mughals went after the sikh gurus because they thought they were being called upon by islam to kill the infidels.

per my reading, mughals went after sikh gurus because they saw the latter as coming in the path to their lust for power. That lust for power being part of the "animal instincts" (i.e. the "common ground" I discuss in #146) to beat the opposition and gain power.

Which makes more sense? Think about it.

This is a EITHER/OR scenario. ONE OF THEM makes more sense, according to you. And THAT is the correct answer, as per your Islamist brain - per my reading, mughals went after sikh gurus because they saw the latter as coming in the path to their lust for power.

And jehangir's own writing says the opposite -

He behaved to Khusrau in certain special ways, and made on his forehead a finger-mark in saffron, which the Indians (Hinduwän) call qashqa, (Tilak) and is considered propitious. When this came to my ears and I clearly understood his folly, I ordered them to produce him and handed over his houses, dwelling-places, and children to Murtaza Khan, and having confiscated his property commanded that he should be put to death.

You are used to dealing with idiot Muslims who follow a pedophile's "message". Don't expect to win arguments with rational people.

So now the sikhs are lying.

Frankly, as I look at it Jehangir was not even aware of the full scope of arjan's death. He probably ordered him killed because he was supporting his rival. Clearly, Jehangir went by what was briefed to him by people in Lahore. For jehangir, he was just another rebel which is pretty clear from what is quoted here. Jehangir did not even refer him as Sikh but a Hindu.

The Sikhs in the case are more authentic as it was an important issue for them.

HP: good research. :-)

on a more serious note, the political reasons behind Jehangir's actions are nothing new - politics and wars are ultimtely power-hungry autocrats, not the truly pious. after all, babar himself attacked the muslim sultanate of delhi first time around, helped by a hindu king. so much for Dost Mittar's thesis about mughals having the spread of islam on top of their heads. christianity is considered to have spread in europe as constantine and later charlemagne saw it as a useful tool to consolidate power.

#169 you obviously did not understand what i wrote in #166 - the quote from jehangir merely confirms one of the reasons i gave. or maybe you are not THAT stupid, but merely trying to be clever in the only way you can be clever - by faking it.

#168: no half-brain. I have explained why. Dont try to be cleverer than you are.

PS: this is a mercy post for you. frame it and put it on the wall.

#164 Posted by HP

Yup. Jehangir's own writing means nothing. But a quote from a website that starts with "probably the chief reason that upset the Emperor" is the one we should go by.

And tahmed has his nonexistent fig leaf.

#163 tahmed32

[Dost Mittar: I have no idea what point you are making by this quotation...]

Oh, I forgot to mention. Another way out for them is obfuscation. Pretending not to understand - confuse the issue somehow.

SHIROMANI GURDWARA PARBANDHAK COMMITTEE Site also accuses Hindu for being complicit in his murder.
http://www.sgpc.net/gurus/guruarjandev.asp

"The number of Sikhs began to increase day by day and this made the orthodox Hindus and princely Muslim class more jealous towards Guru Ghar (Sikh Nation). Guru's elder brother, Prithi Chand made an alliance with Sulhi Khan (a revenue officer), and planned to harm and harass Guru Sahib. But Sulhi Khan died by his sudden fall in a live brick-klins. The orthodox Hindus and the fundamentalist Muslims (Shekh Ahmed Sirhandi, Birbal and Chandu) were some of the most jealous of Sikh community and Guru Arjan Sahib. After the death of Akbar in 1605 both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists move the new head of state emperor Jahangir against Guru Sahib. Jahangir himself was also jealous about Guru's propagation of Sikhism. He promptly obliged the enemies of Guru Sahib. Many baseless allegations were leveled against Guru Sahib, one of those was helping the rebellious Khusro. Guru Arjan Sahib was arrested and brought to Lahore where he was charge-sheeted and implicated in the false cases."

Thanks HP. This should provide more food for thought for Dost Mittar sahib.

pinku: so everything i wrote in #146/47 flew past you. thanks, now i know i wont need to waste your time or my time trying to have a respectful discussion.

and this is what you should know about ajeya - a long time ago, i realized he was brain-dead, like other illustrious chowk colleagues, and so dont bother to waste time responding to his unsolicited posts. but i am flattered by his loyal campfollowing comments. :-)

From the historical perspective, Tahmed is correct Arjan's murder was mostly because of his political activities.
Here is an excerpt from the Sikh history as it appears on the net. I don't know how authentic this is. But from the quote it is clear that it was not his religious but political activities that cause problems. Arjan supported Jehangir's rival brother Khusro. Twisting history is part of the Indian psyche now!

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/nanak5.html

"In 1598, the Guru interceded on behalf of the local peasantry with Emperor Akbar to get the excessive levy of land revenue reduced. These activities of the Guru gave him a new status. It was at this time that the Guru came to be called by the Sikhs as Sacha Patshah (True Emperor). The Guru had come to guide, govern and influence the lives of the Sikhs both in the temporal and the spiritual fields. It was a significant development The organization of the community, according to Gupta, became a state within a state.

Owing to the growing religious and political influence of the Gurus, the Sikhs had got a clear consciousness of their religious and sociopolitical identity. Consequently, the position of the Gurus had naturally given rise to hostility, both in the religious and political quarters. Saikh Ahmad, the head of the Naqashbandt order at Sirhind and a leader of the revivalist movement of Islam in India, got upset at the influence of the Guru among men of both the communities. He had access to the court of Jahangir. But, probably the chief reason that upset the Emperor was that the Guru had blessed Khusro and helped him monetarily while the latter had rebelled against Jahangir. The local administration was naturally aware of the growing Sociopolitical strength and influence of the Guru. Chat this incident rankled in the mind of emperor Jahangir, is evident from his own statement recorded in his autobiography. He wrote that he had ordered the execution by torture of Guru Arjun unless he embraced Islam, because the Guru had raised aloft the standard of holiness and many Hindus and Muslims had foolishly become his followers. Prithi Mal and his Prince Khusrau who was also son of Akbar and was contesting for throne was captured by Jahangir's men. This prince Khusrau was the son of Jodha Bai, daughter of Udai Singh of Jodhpur, since he was born to a Hindu mother, was disliked by the fanatics who wanted Prince Salim who was a 100% Sunni Muslim (as oppose to the popular Hindi movie Mughal-e-Azam, where Jahangir was shown as son of Hindu mother). Prince escaped and went to Guru Arjan. Guru Arjan was moved at the 13 years old Prince and gave him help with money and shelter. Salim succeded with the title of Jahangir. Jahangir hated all those who were in Akbar's good books. He summoned Guru to Lahore, Sikhs of lahore pleaded with Jahangir to let them collect the fine and pay to him to release Guru, but Jahangir refused. Jahangir appointed Murtaza Khan to confisicate the property of Guru and hand it over to state., apart from that a fine of 2 lakhs was also collected from the Sikhs. Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort."

Dost Mittar: I have no idea what point you are making by this quotation, since this merely confirms one of the reasons i gave in response to your question.

Re #159 Posted by dost_mittar on
dost mittar,
As Ajeya says, it is not easy to reason with ego, when you have a good argument muslims will run away. All of them know what those books from Jehangir or Temur lang or even Kuran have in them, but they are soo good in beating their own mind, they can still give reasons which their own mind know are wrong. They can do it any number of times.

The degree of such behavior shows you how much a person is in control of his intelect and how much ego controls him/her.

Most muslims will suggest you to leave such discussions eventually as it relates to religious (when everything else fails for them) though they themselves are so trapped in their religious ego.

#159 dost-mittar

dost-mittar,

You are again trying logic with Tahmed. At this point, when Islamists have no arguments left, they always act predictably - they leave the scene of the argument, ONLY TO RETURN LATER AND REPEAT THE SAME POINT. The reason for this is simple. It is not as if tahmed and other islamists don't understand clear logic. But they are not interested in it. They stopped thinking rationally long ago when they "submitted". Now the only game plan is spreading propaganda and whatever else it takes, for the cause of islam.

So for now, he will be silent. He WILL NOT acknowledge that he was wrong (as you expect a rational man to do). Instead, he will bide his time, and pop up again at another forum with the same discredited arguments, hoping that nobody remembers.

Such is the way of the Islamist.

Sometimes, Allah moves in strange ways!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_fe_st/odd_naked_dog_walker;_ylt =Ajam8L2CPr1y.uptwCPbap2ek3QF


Fla. police use Taser on nude man walking a dog
Mon Sep 15, 9:05 PM ET



TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - A 40-year-old man walking his dog in the nude was Tasered by police when he refused to follow an officer's commands. David McCranie of the Tallahassee Police Department said an officer on patrol spotted the man shortly after 8 p.m. Friday.


The man was asked what he was doing and told the officer, "Allah told me to watch a Bruce Willis movie and walk the dog," McCranie said.

McCranie said using the Taser was the only way to subdue the man without having to hurt him. The man was then sent for mental-health evaluation and treatment.