Emerging Pakistan-U.S. relations

I don't think it is easy for Pakistan to get out of this GWOT. It is the classic scenario of jumping from frying pan into the fire.

If Pakistan is not fighting (or not seemed to be fighting) the Taliban in its regions, America would take the fight into Pakistan. There is really no choice.

shankar #: "My argument in not why Pakistan should be neutral, but HOW she is going to do it. If you cut off logistical supplies, you will be faced with economic sanctions. Will Pakistan be able to withstand them?"

...i think i misunderstood....my apologies.....

......your point is valid and is perhaps the decisive reason on which the current govt. is basing its decisions, despite the massive public opinion that is against gwot...... by the way this opinion is also against taliban....i am against usa's gwot policies and pakistan supporting them......however, i also think pakistan needs to clean up its act in fata.....clean up its extremism.....clean up its obsession with india....etc....pakistan is a major, if not the major cause of the taliban problem historically.....the solution to that however isn't joining usa's gwot and making taliban even more popular....

to me these are two exclusive items....i am not only against usa's policies in gwot, due to moral reasons....i am against it because the usa has proved disastrous in planning gwot......and beacause even after 7 years, there is no direction to it and no end in sight.....

.....now to the economic sanctions.....i don't think usa will sanction pakistan, for not allowing logisitical lines.....it would have sanctioned turkey as well.....it think the usa (specifically the republican party) is in desparate states in this gwot.....they have lost it and don't know what to do.....hence one cannot base one's strategy on us policy, which itself is a lost case......i doubt anyone in the usa sheds a tear for any lives lost in pakistan......

....i think the usa would sanction pakistan if it felt pakistan was not doing anything within fata etc.....

......so first and foremost, pakistan has to sell the idea to the usa that it cannot tackle fata if every policy is seen to be in support of usa's gwot.....which is a fact......and that supporting gwot and bombing indiscriminately is making taliban stronger in pakistan; not weaker.....

.....so pakistan disassociates from gwot......much like turkey....but continues internally in fata etc.......on its own terms, with the support of locals, which would then be easier to get......

....assuming usa does sanction pakistan.....it would be counterproductive.....and i doubt it would have the support of europe (which is fed up with us policy), china, russia and perhaps middle east....

in any case, the impact of suicide bombings on pakistan's economy is far more than any type of sanctions.....usa sanctioned pakistan after nuclear explosions......pakistan survived....however, it is not going to survive these suicide bombings......

in addition, usa is giving only 1.5 billion dollars of aid a year......mostly to the military......pakistan is losing more than that out of its stock exchange each month....

.....pakistan has to make one major decision, however.....it has to open up the border with india....it is, now, practically impossible for pakistan to fight on both borders......it needs to release the pressure on the eastern borders.......the politicians want to do that....i don't know if the military is ready.....

secondly, pakistan needs to totally throw itself in the chinese camp....china is giving $200 billion dollars of loans to usa, annually and is keeping the usa economy afloat....i am sure it could support pakistan's economy in these tough times......

but one thing i am sure of....first and foremost, pakistan has to stop these suicide bombings, even if it has to make a deal with the devil.....and i cannot see those stopping as long as pakisatn is in gwot......

even the people pushing pakistan to do more in gwot on this site, have not presented any strategy on what doing more means and how they know that doing more is going to actually make pakistan more peaceful.....

98...

Do you feel, Pakistani nation, created in the name of Islam, participated in a war, where their own moslems are getting killed, voluntarily?

#94 Bull...
Joining GWOT was definitely bad option for Pakistan, but the worst would have been, not joining it. Do you feel, Pakistani nation, created in the name of Islam, participated in a war, where their own moslems are getting killed? Couple of jihadis and soldiers are sacrificial lamb, in this war...
Anyhow, Mush was very cunning. He has saved Pakistan from heavy bombing and destruction....

Majumder,
After 9/11, there was a communication delay between our US office and India office. Then, as usual, there was emotional mail from the US counterpart, regarding what bad happened to USA. My manager (that time) was quite unmoved. She told the engineer communication with the other side that, we (Indians) are facing it in Kashmir for decades. Even financial capital, Mumbai, experienced such stuff. If a small,weak nation like India can sustain such prolonged terrorism, why USA ( superpower) should be purturbed by a single event?

Majumder....
Islamic barbarism in India has historical roots. Indians are fighting it for centuries. It is nothing new to India. Now, after the demand and price of petro products increased and europe become financialy weak, the barbarism is creating trouble everywhere.So, what was essentialy India's problem has become global now....

Now, though India is not part of GWOT, has it been successful in evading islamic barbarism? Last 5 years, how many allahoooooooo Akbooms, India has experienced?
Kashi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Koimbatore, Gujrat, Jaipur, Delhi (twice)....
Majumder, if USA withdraws from the GWOT, it will loose nothing. But these jihadis will come to Kashmir and more trouble for India....

Anyhow, it is wring to say Indians are not part of GWOT. India deployed more troops in Kashmir than US in Afghanistan....

Romair,

My argument in not why Pakistan should be neutral, but HOW she is going to do it. If you cut off logistical supplies, you will be faced with economic sanctions. Will Pakistan be able to withstand them?

majumdar #: "And in spite of being an ardent Hindoo, I wud rather India stay away from WOT (either side), it is not our shyte...."

yes, that would be the wisest thing for india to do.....and so far, it hasn't joined gwot....i believe there are no indian soldiers deployed any where in any capacity, in gwot....

which is also, probably, why no indian has been targeted in gwot.....

.....setting aside all the hype about ideology, and looking at everything analytically, all the terrorist bombings have a tactical military purpose......

.....spain was bombed, because it was in iraq......it withdrew and has not been bombed since......australian tourists were bombed in bali, because australia was gung-ho in this war......britain was bombed, as it was in iraq.......it has now announced its withdrawls....

.....there are now, only two countries actively involved in the military side of gwot - usa and pakistan.....that is it....

.....usa is too far away......pakistan is right next door as is being bombed regularly......these bombings may have an ideological methodology (suicide bombers brainwashed religiously), but they have a tactical strategy behind them.....

......the aim is to get pakistan out of gwot also, thereby cutting off usa's logistical lines in afghanistan.....making it more difficult for the usa to conduct the war......

......an overwhelming amount of pakistanis are against gwot, and nearly every pakistani (barring some expats) is against pakistan being a part of gwot.....yet the govt. is still participating in it.....

this has escalated the violence and terrorism in pakistan.....it has also made it impossible for the govt. to sell the idea that this is pakistan's war......no one is buying this line.....they, like me, think this is, primarily the usa's war, which has been forced upon pakistan, thereby enflaming the extremist elements in pakistan, who up til now, had not turned militant.....

i.e. it is becoming pakistan's war, for no rhyme or reason....pakistan is shoving itself into it......

.......until pakistan disassociates from the gwot and from usa, i doubt the govt. will ever be able to sell the idea that this is solely pakistan's war.......and will never get the complete following of the people.....

if pakistan disassociates from gwot, i am sure the violence will decrease tremendously, as the terrorist's aim of cutting off us logistic lines will be achieved......

at that point some elements will continue fighting in pakistan, which then will be pakistan's war......at that time, it will be possible for the govt. to convince the population of pakistan that it is, now, fighting pakistan's war......then it should be able to corner the terrorists more easily......

however, as long as their is even a hint of american support vis a vis gwot, i doubt the govt. will ever be able to tackle this problem.....

And in spite of being an ardent Hindoo, I wud rather India stay away from WOT (either side), it is not our shyte.

Regards

FM Romair,

Much of the troubles in India today- whether it is SIMI's jihad or the Bajrangi's goondagardi is homegrown shyte and will be solved/worsened by our own choices. Should India not join WOT, even a worsening in Pak's situation will have minimal impact.

Regards

#88 by bulleya

even the americans no longer want to hook their ship onto anything related with bush....why should pakistan?.....

But that Captain Clueless is because Americans have a choice, they can vote for someone else. What choice does Pakistan have? If not for the US, no one in the world would have wanted anything to do with it, and Pakistan would have gone under a long time back.

So please spare us your "banal"ysis.

majumdar #: "The War came to Pak 'cos its elite chose to make it Pak's war, it did not come uninvited. Same ways, if India chooses to stay away from the war it wont come to India...."

...this is a valid point.....if india ends up joining the gwot with the same intensity as pakistan did, then india will become a part of the theatre of gwot.....in which case it will extend into india.....

....however, if the indian leadership does not join gwot (logistics etc.) then it may remain immune to it to some extent, or to a great extent.......

however, i don't think india can remain totally immune to it.....there are plenty of fissures in the indian society, which would grow further, regardless of the decision made by india, if the gwot fully extended into pakistan......

turkey was along the same lines.....had it joined gwot, al-qaeda would have entered turkey.....a few explosions in istanbul, and turkey's lucrative tourist industry would have been dead......

....more importantly, turkey would have gotten into the middle of the kurdish problem.....luckily for turkey, it did not join gwot......and the kurds within iraq, became an ally of the usa, and not an adversary......

had they become an adversary, i think a similar situation to the pathans of the afghanistan/pakistan border......

in any case, i think india's foreign policy political experts are quite saavy and i doubt they will make the same mistakes that pakistan made, wrt to gwot......having said that, this govt. has inherited a lot of the mistakes of musharraf.....

FM Romair,

much like the wave that has come, since the first (and second) afghan war has swept from afghanistan to pakistan, it will eventually sweep into india also.....

The War came to Pak 'cos its elite chose to make it Pak's war, it did not come uninvited. Same ways, if India chooses to stay away from the war it wont come to India. In that sense Iqbal's theory about Pak being India's first line of defence would come true in an ironical sort of way.

Regards

shankar #: "Cut off the logistical supplies? close the air space...that would be tantamount to a declaration of war!"

...can you highlight, under which law, not allowing one's country to be a logistical route to someone else's war is a declaration of war?....this is a new one, that i have never heard before.....

...if country a wants to declare war on country b, according to your definition, country c must allow its land to be used as a logistical route?....

...based on this, turkey has declared war on usa......it has not allowed its land to be used as a logistical route for the iraq war....a much bigger and more important operation than the afghanistan war.....this despite the fact that turkey is a very close ally of usa...

....is it now the world's legal responsibility to open up themselves for us logistical supplies, whenever the usa decides to declare war on someone....if tomorrow usa declares war on iran, is it pakistan's responsibility to become usa's logistical lifeline in that war also?

....if tomorrow usa decides to declare war on nepal, should india then have the responsibility to open up is land routes to usa, even if it wants to stay out of the war?....

...have the americans reached this level of arrogance that everyone must join every war they want to start?....

the usa's gwot is lost......bush is screwed.....republican party is screwed.....obl has outlasted bush's two terms......and still cannot be caught....all the countries that allied with the usa are realizing that they will be screwed also, if they don't dump gwot.....

because of this ill-thought out gwot, even the us economy is screwed....imagine.....obl's predictions of changing the us lifestyle may have come true.....who would have thought that the mighty american govt. would one day be asking arab sheikhs and chinese govt. to bail out its ass(et)s......

....and you think pakistan should continue on this misguided misadventure.....when all the other countries are jumping off this sinking ship, one by one......why?.....that too, when it is devastating pakistan's society, through violence......

pakistan has its internal problems with extremism........no doubt about that.....they are the result of a series of events which started when pakistan joined the first afghan war as a frontline state.......no doubt about that, either......

and pakistan must accept that and solve it....

....but the moment pakistan allows its own problems to be linked with the usa's gwot, pakistan has lost the battle.....since the gwot has little credibility and is about to be lost....

......pakistan should solve these internal problems on its own......i.e. separate them out from anything the usa is doing in the region......otherwise pakistan has had it......it will sink under the weight the usa's gwot......

...and trust me the after affects of this misguided gwot are not going to stop in pakistan.......much like the wave that has come, since the first (and second) afghan war has swept from afghanistan to pakistan, it will eventually sweep into india also.....

...so the solution to this is not indiscriminate bombing that will further flame this violence......the solution to this also isn't joining it with some global war......the solution is regional......i.e. separate it from anything global and handle it regionally.....

even the americans no longer want to hook their ship onto anything related with bush....why should pakistan?.....

shankar #: "The WOT was not fought on Canadian, Spanish or Dutch territory. They can afford to withdraw.

How in the world can a country ,whose land is part of the battleground, where OBL is given sanctuary, whose govt has created this Frankenstein, declare NEUTRALITY?? Its absurd! The West will not accept that...."

...it doesn't matter what the west accepts or doesn't accept......pakistan has to look after its own interests....it is the job of the pakistan govt. to protect pakistani citizens, not nato troops......

...secondly the west is, itself, fed up with this gwot.....so you need to differentiate between the west and usa.....

......this is now a war being fought by the usa alone....how many other countries have soldiers actively fighting this war......none....the few that do have soldiers in this war, have them in logistical roles.....

....this war has gone on longer than wwII....there is no strategy, no end in sight....it was an ill-thought out adventure initiated by misguided neocons......and the whole world has had to pay a price for it......

.....pakistan cannot afford to be sucked into this us misadventure any longer....look at the damage it has done to pakistan.......if you seriously feel this war has raised pakistan's economy, i have a few lehmann brother shares i would like to sell to you......

......let me give you an example of a country that did not allow the us to use its land as a logistical route....turkey......why, because they knew the usa would screw everything up and turkey would become suicide bombing central....iran didn't either.....both countries are safe.....

Re: # 71
masadi...
ha ha ha...
People of FATA and NWFP were leading civilised life before 9/11 and suddenly switched to islamic mode after 9/11 !!!!