Emerging Pakistan-U.S. relations

#83 Posted by shankar on September 21, 2008 9:02:40 am


use the billion dollars/ yr it gives to Pakistan & give India 1 billion dollars/yr of military aid.


India doesn't need the money..it's IT exports alone grow by that amount every year..

remember...IT..the thing capt clueless told us required Pakistani management skills to be successful at...

bulleya#77:

Any conclusion is as good as the information it is based upon; so let me first list the sources of my imressions:

- chowk interacts by pavocavalry and zeemax who seem to have access to reliable sources inside Pak army and taleban;

- a few intrepid foreign reporters who have actually been in the area of operations;

- interviews of intelligence and other experts, esp. on Jm Lehrer's Report; and

- my own interactions with some Pashtoons in 2004, which showed that all Pashtuns hate Americans.

Based on these, this is my impression:

1. The figure of 93,000 Pak troops is misleading; they are mostly men of Frontier Corps and not from the regular army battalions which are still mostly stationed on the Eastern border.

2. It is one big mess out there and there are wars within wars and taleban within taleban. Pak army actually supports some taleban and is against others.

3. Pakistani soldiers stay in their camps and rarely venture outside. Most of the Pak casulaties are the result of attacks on those camps by Taleban factions opposed to Pak army and not during actual operations against the Taleban.

4. Pakistan is actually supporting the Haqqani faction of Taleban in Afghanistan.

5. Afghanistani agencies have supplied Pakistanis with actual names, telphone numbers and addresses in Quetta of the Taleban leaders, only to find them relocated.

6. The US intelligence has stopped sharing information with the Pakistan as any information they supply goes directly to the people against whom it is supplied.

If these observations are incorrect, blame it on the sources I quoted above.

Romair,

The WOT was not fought on Canadian, Spanish or Dutch territory. They can afford to withdraw.

How in the world can a country ,whose land is part of the battleground, where OBL is given sanctuary, whose govt has created this Frankenstein, declare NEUTRALITY?? Its absurd! The West will not accept that.

Ok--how is Pakistan going to do that? Cut off the logistical supplies? close the air space...that would be tantamount to a declaration of war!

Irfan Hussein says the 7th fleet, which is in our pond, can destroy your military many times over..

But there are "peaceful" ways of twisting Pakistan's arm

Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy..let it sink. Worse than than, use the billion dollars/ yr it gives to Pakistan & give India 1 billion dollars/yr of military aid.

Even death is less terrifying to Pakistan than that!:)

#71 Posted by masadi on September 20, 2008 8:35:30 pm


Regardless of what Arjun says there was no Taliban problem in Pakistan before the farce of the US GWOT


Of course there was no jihadi problem in pakistan before 9/11...that's because the jihadis you created were killing afghans and indians in kashmir...

of course, you'll also deny that...

#78 Posted by bulleya on September 21, 2008 1:26:41 am



.....the usa has lost in iraq....it is withdrawing slowly


2005 called...it wants it's meme back...

masadi#54:

I do not think that the US will attack Pakistan; there is no reason for them to do so - attacking Pakistan, presuming they have enough resources - a big if - will cost hundreds of billions while Pak army and civilians can be bought much more cheaply. A civilian govt. would find it very difficult to fight its own people and the US should/would understand that but the covert Pak support for the taleban will have to end. Woodward has already suggested that the US will adapt the Anbar strategy in Afghanistan as well but incursions into Pakinstan will also become more intensive, and with the help of "bought" taleban, better targeted.

Urstruly#53:

It is not my contention, it is Hamid Mir's that Pak army has not killed any taleban, only some innocent people. BTW, based on my personal interacts, I would say that, generally speaking, there is no difference between taleban and Pashtoon; they all support their Pushtoon brothers' fight against their enemy in Afghanistan even if some call it jehad.

HP #: "The Pakistan army should start cleaning up one area at a time and make all efforts to push these criminals back in Afghanistan for the US army to worry about them..."

...i think all of this is well and good in theory....but i am not sure if it works out practically....

....first and foremost, take a look at the whole gwot....it has now gone on longer than ww11, with no end in sight....all western nations have slowly, but surely, disengaged themselves from the fighting side of this war....it is now, only pakistan and usa fighting.....

.....the usa has lost in iraq....it is withdrawing slowly.....it is losing in afghanistan.......and will eventually lose out totally.....

based on this, pakistan is, now, part of an ill-planned gwot, with no end, fighting in an area, where no one has ever won a war in the past century......

added to this, pakistan is paying with extremely heavy internal casualities......

so, while i agree with the theory of what you are saying in pushing out the taliban......there doesn't seem to be any practical way to do it, militarily.....

and as long as pakistan is considered even remotely to be fighting america's war, there will never be any national consensus behind any strategy adapted by pakistan......

i think pakistan has to, first and foremost, get out of the american alliance in gwot.....then the pakistanis need to sit down and plan out a long term strategy for handling extremism, in pakistan, based on pakistan's own interest......and not based on an ill-thought gwot....

dost-mittar #: "So, Pakistan has already withdrawn from the war, if it ever was in it, and is letting the Americans do it; the difference is that earlier it was making the pretense of "fighting" the taleban to the Americans, now it is making the pretense of "protesting" American actions for domestic consumption..."

...i am not sure how accurate this is....

...pakistan is the main (and probably only) logistical line for nato in afghanistan.....this means thousands of trucks must have passed through pakistan, providing logistics to nato.....

...in addition, pakistan is the main air route to afghanistan for nato....

...pakistan has 120,000 troops on the border with afghanistan......

....there is active air force and army action going on in the tribal areas, by pakistani troops....

....pakistani troop casualities are higher than all of nato combined.......and pakistani troops have been the biggest target of suicide bombings....

this would, surely, indicate that pakistan is actively involved......

...as i have said if the usa with $80 billion could not win against the insurgency in iraq and with $20 billion a year is losing in afghanistan......how in the world is pakistan going to win in tribal areas.......

.......the whole gwot is coming back to haunt its originators.......this was an ill-though out, ill-planned war with no goals defined......it had reluctant allies who saw its shortcomings......and it is now totally unravelling.....

....the usa will have to announce its retreat in afghanistan, much like it has done in iraq.....it's nato allies are no longer fighting on the frontlines in either country.....

once this whole thing unravels, who will be left holding the bag......obviously iraq and afghanistan......but if pakistan doesn't change its policies shortly....then pakistan will be left holding the bag also.......

......pakistan needs to disengage from this war.......much like canada has done......it needs to tell the usa that it has done all it can.......

then it needs to plan out a solution for this war, internally.....i.e. how to handle the internal extremism......and that should be done keeping in mind pakistan's interests.......

otherwise, it will always seem that pakistan is fighting america's war......and it will never be possible for any pakistan govt. to gather the critical mass support it needs to tackle this problem......

HP,
Just wait.

Re: # 56

[They use us badly and we do not deliver. They are trying to buy us cheap way, it does not work.]

Ahmedmadani sahib, name your price!

in #70 "From Iraq to Pakistan (via Afghanistan of course) per US design.."

Hamid sahib, after the Nacirema incident, you have lost all steam, so please keep your 2 cents where they don't reveal your ignorance and cause you further disgrace.

thank you kindly,.

TNI Masadi

In fact let me conclude by saying that the US "thinks" that Afghanistan is much more dangerous for it, compared to Pakistan and FATA, and hence it is looking for closure over there as well as opening a new front in Pakistan. If you notice Iraq and then the problems of Afghanistan have all but vanished from the mainstream media. This is not just coincidence, even Iran has gone to the background...

In # 70

Regardless of what Arjun says there was no Taliban problem in Pakistan before the farce of the US GWOT. It is not just FATA , it is the Baluchistan area as well that the US is interested in which is strategically important for it to surround Iran, together with being quite resource rich

HP writes "Many people say that BUT no one has ever said what interest US has in 'those areas'"

HP sahib, salam and greetings of peace. When the "interest" is fueling the engine that is driving a farcial GWOT, you do not need land-specific interests. The US behemoth is like a spreading cancer, incorporating greater and greater areas of the globe forming nodal tumors everywhere it gets a chance. The purpose is escalation through handing over Pakistan to the Taliban, regardless of what Arjun says there was no Taliban problem in Pakistan before the farcical US GWOT. It is not just FATA as well, it is the Baluchistan area as well that the US is interested in that is strategically important to surround Iran together with be quite resource rich

If I remember correctly, it was you who said that suicide bombing is the symbol of the farcial GWOT and since the center of activity is shifting from Iraq to Afghanistan per US design, this symbolism will be most evident in this area. Now you've done a 100% about face.

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi