Emerging Pakistan-U.S. relations

Re: # 52

Your contention is not true. Hamid Mir is a journalist at the top of his peers crying horase for years now, begging and pleading napak fouj to stop massacres in tribal areas. There are over a million pakistani citizens who have been displaced by the attrocities committed by this fouj. The only difference between now and then is that the so called civilian political establishment knows very well that making deals with americans is political kiss of death for any political party. Fouj doesn't have a political constituency and they don't run in elections so the things were different.

My assessment is that paki political establishment by emphasizing the "sovereignity" issue is trying to save face until November, whereas Republicans are trying to play 9/11 card once again to push McCain - "the tough and experienced guy; who knows how to deal with terrorsit states like Pakistan capable of destroying civilization in 45 seconds just like saddam" -

bulleya:

Actually, I was referring to your solution: Pakistan is hardly fighting the so-called WOT; what it was doing was to exploit this "war" to get some halwa from the Americans. As is becoming abundantly clear, Pakistan was not fighting the taleban in tribal areas, but only doing a pretense of so doing; reports by as diverse Pakistani reporters as Hamid Mir and Rashid Ahmad point to this fact; Hamid Mir, no friend of Americans, has boldly challenged that he would give up journalism if the army has killed a single taleban or al qaeda.

It seems that now the US has decided that it has to fight the taleban in Pakistan itself, as Pakistan is not doing it. Pakistan can not openly support such action, hence the imaginary "conversation" by SR.

So, Pakistan has already withdrawn from the war, if it ever was in it, and is letting the Americans do it; the difference is that earlier it was making the pretense of "fighting" the taleban to the Americans, now it is making the pretense of "protesting" American actions for domestic consumption.

So the Americans have sent a message through their suicide bomber in the heart of Islamabad to remove glitches in establishing a large scale base near Islamabad, and to give a clear message to Zardari before his upcoming US trip (Tuesday), isn't it a 'self fulfilling prophecy' of some months back which said that if the Pakistanis didn't follow the US line, including the punctuation and what not that similar attacks like the one that killed BB could follow!:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-fg-mullen19- 2008sep19,0,1310930.story

U.S. military advisors may soon head to Pakistan

The U.S. and Pakistan have cleared remaining obstacles, so the long-delayed team may arrive within weeks, Joint Chiefs Chairman Michael Mullen says.

Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 19, 2008

A long-delayed plan to send dozens of U.S. military advisors to Pakistan to train its army in counterinsurgency could begin in a matter of weeks under a new agreement on a training base, according to the top U.S. military officer.

Washington for months has urged the Pakistani military to accept the training team. Pakistan has resisted, asking for additional weaponry and equipment some U.S. officials believe is best suited for its standoff with regional rival India.

But Navy Adm. Michael G. Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the primary stumbling block had been the fact that Pakistan could not build the training site, near the western town of Peshawar, quickly enough. The two sides have agreed to use an alternative base north of the capital.

"We're still going through some administrative delays, but I do see it happening," Mullen said in an interview en route from Washington to his hometown of Los Angeles, where he plans a series of talks in coming days. "I think it's in the next few weeks."

A couple of weeks ago in an award ceremony at a high class private school in Islamabad, a grade 10 student awardee, refused to shake hand or accept award from the female principal of the school. He rushed to the mike and told the school management to be ashamed of themselves, referring to a group dance presented by some of the female students on stage earlier. According to him it was Ramadan and teachers, parents, and girl students should have been ashamed of themselves for desecrating the sacred month.

For a moment there was pin drop silence in the school hall. But soon the principal tried to take control of the situation by apologizing for the "mistake". But after realizing that the situation was not that bad and she did have some support in the audience, she invited a firebrand butch type auntie to address the audience. The auntie started yelling and screaming at the "Taliban" in the hall and told them to "Go home" - she was booed from the opposite camp; which incensed her to the extent that she set her bra on fire while screaming "Taliban Go Home".

This indicates the extent of schism that has developed in our society (which in yours truly's opinion is a good thing - how can there be any alliance between party of God and enemies of God?)

Only yesterday a very senior columnist referred to Pakistan military's top brass in the biggest urdu daily as "expensive prostitutes" - an impossibility in the 61 years of history of Pakistan.

Sabres are rattling - and opponents are straightening their columns. Now there is no going back. If Americans think that they can impose upon us in the guise of a so called "civilian government", the gang of most corrupt people, the custodians of graves, dabba pirs, libral fascists, ethnic terrorists like MQM, and feudal lords who burry women alive in their fiefdoms - then they are sadly mistaken. Like I said, revolution has gained momentum and it is going to go in only one direction - elimination of bastard children of East India Company. Between Feb 18 until now there was time to avert the impending clamity, now the time has passed.

dost-mittar#: ...."To some of us, Pakistan has been following your preferred policy all along;"

....actually, this is not my prefered policy.....it was an idea floated to hamidm mian, i.e. if the taliban are to go somewhere, why not afghanistan, instead of kashmir....

....my prefered policy is as follows:

- get out of gwot.....if us allies like canada are not willing to commit to it, then why should pakistan.....do you think canada would have kept its few soldiers in afghanitan if it had faced 160 attacks within its borders....

- adapt the policy of turkey, and stop being the logistical lifeline for usa's gwot....

- then handle pakistan's internal situation separately, solely from a pakistani perspective......the job of the pakistan government is, specifically, to save pakistani lives, first and foremost......

....pakistan has been pulled into usa's war, and is now becoming a part of the theatre......it has to get out of this.....

usa has lost in afghanistan as well.....as i had predicted, it is not possible to win civil wars with brute military force.....now it is looking for a scapegoat.....which will be pakistan....

......pakistan needs to pass on the responsibility of cross-border crossings to nato......why are they allowing crossings from the afghan side......why don't they stop them there......if they cannot stop them, how do they expect pakistan to stop them......

.....once the above is sorted out, then pakistan needs to tell these militant forces that pakistan is no longer a part of gwot......hence they should stop their violence in pakistan.....if they agree, well and good.....if they don't, then pakistan should go after them militarily.........

canada, holland etc. are all pulling out of afghanistan.....they are not even on the frontlines, there......spain pulled out of iraq, after one explosion in spain.....

.why in the world should pakistan continue in this useless conflict, which is totally ill-planned, with no end in sight.....it has gone on longer than wwII....

the reason the usa is losing in afghanistan, has nothing to do with safe havens in pakistan....a few safe havens and a few border crossings cannot defeat a superpower.....which can fence the border anytime it wants (but isn't doing so).....

they are failing because it was totally ill-planned and is viewed as an occupation by that country's pathan population....

bulleya:

To some of us, Pakistan has been following your preferred policy all along; the rest is showbiz and the inability of some taleban to comprehend the showbiz. Watch hamir mir's interview from the affected areas, if you don't believe.

I have developed a simple yet effective detection strategy concerning explosions in Pakistan:

If there was any element of human sacrifice on the part of the perpetrator(s), the explosion is the work of our "Islamic" brethren.

If there is a huge loss of life, following a limited loss of life in an explosion in India, AND there is no suicide involved in the attack, then it is the work of our lovely neighbors to the east.

If the explosion catches the Paki military by total surprise (wink, wink) AND every officer swears up and down on a stack of Korans that they were not consulted prior to the bang bang, then it's the work of our American benefactors. \

Pakis are supposed to die in great numbers, but we need to know who is dispatching us to paradise?

#45 Posted by bulleya on September 20, 2008 10:17:47 am


mullah umar and bush are both, equally, bad for pakistan's health.


wow...quite a change in tune...

post 9/11, you told us the following things

1. Pakiland, having joined the war on terror, would now march economically ahead of india
2. Thanks to 1, pakiland could now afford to send jihadis into india and bleed india
3. Thanks to 2, kashmir would be azad in 10 years time..
4. Bush would be so grateful to pakis that he visited islamabad, he would stop for every tongawalla...

hamidm mian#: ".... so you are wrong, these people do not want to fight the americans in afghanistan, their main enemy are people like you and they will bring the fight home to you ......."

......trust me these guys want to fight americans, first and foremost.....when they cannot fight them, they fight whomever is in sight.....

there were no suicide bombings in pakistan, prior to 9/11...now pakistan has more than iraq.....much like the usa's defeat, this is also something i have been predicting on chowk for a long long time......

i think these guys are out to kill anyone who disagrees with them......and the americans are also out to kill any one who disagrees with them.....both have lost their minds....

......and at the moment, both are killing pakistanis......

so there is an easy solution.....let the two entities fight it out in some place outside pakistan......if pakistan doesn't do that, then both entities will continue bombing pakistan, asking pakistan to do more......

mullah umar and bush are both, equally, bad for pakistan's health........when two elephants fight, it's the grass that gets crushed......

....to extrapolate on your kashmir theory (in which you strangely forgot to mention that these guys are actually after pakistan and not kashmir)......let them go into afghanistan and fight the americans.......

on the other hand, if you think they are actually after pakistan, then your kashmir theory fails also.....as they would have no interest in kashmir.....

india is no longer the enemy of choice in pakistan......there was a survey, in pakistan, which relegated india to a distant second as a threat to pakistan.....no. 1 was the usa......taliban types are a big threat also.....

but once pakistan kicks out the usa, dealing with the taliban and kicking them out will become much easier.......much like it was prior to 9/11 - a time when marriotts were totally safe, and the tribal areas were a long distance from everything......

americans are going to be defeated in afghanistan, and will pack up, much like they are doing from iraq......there allies are already starting to pack up.....they have realized it is useless to hitch their boat with the idiots of the repbulican party......

.....they will dump off all their failures of this war - including the taliban - onto pakistan......

Hamidumdum Sahib,
I have a suggestion. Why doesn't Pakistan forcefully, unilaterally, and unconditionally impose total independence on FATA and any other areas that wish to join that cradle of freedom?

Perhaps this would be an incentive for India to consider similar sanity in its dealings with the oppressed Kashmiris.

Sincerely,
Salim

Hamidumdum Sahib,
What kind of stupid people comprise the dysfunctional unit known as GoP?
If this horrible massacre is the work of RAW, then our ISI should not be engaging in similar acts.
If this horrible massacre is the work of "Islamic" brothers from FATA, then the GoP should learn from history that no one has ever succeeded in subduing these warlike tribes - NO ONE - not Alexander, not the Mughals, not the Sikhs, not the British, and certainly not the Russians. If the Pak Army, with its illustrious history, wants to attempt to control these people on behalf of the Americans, I have some shares of Lehman Bros that you may want to buy.

Re: # 39

bj,

... i am sorry .... i have changed my mind since i saw tthe latest carnage in islamabad ..... now i am advocating a hammer and anvil approach with india from the east and america from the west to exterminate the vermin that infest pakiland - we cannot trust our own people to do it ........ there is no friggin way anyone can drive a truck loaded with a ton of explosives within a mile of the marriott unless the security forces are involved ..... now, i am asking for help ........ i have seen the real enemy and it is not the horrible hindoo and it is not the taleban - it is the taliban symapthizers like romair

Re: # 40

romair mian,

.... i just got off the phone with a family member who works at the marriott and he tells me that "they" are fighting the americans in islamabad .... another friend who works for a european multinational in islamabad told me that he received a fax the other day from the taliban asking him to fire the women staff in his office or else ...... the scary thing was that "they" had listed the names of all his female employees .... my brother-in-law who works for a pakistani company received a similar letter a couple of weeks ago regarding the two women in his office - he sent them on leave ......

.... so you are wrong, these people do not want to fight the americans in afghanistan, their main enemy are people like you and they will bring the fight home to you ....... you might start thinking of coming back to canada unless you are thinking of growing a beard and joining them .....

hamidm mian: "but i still don't understand why we can't divert the niswar-chewing, watwani-doing, charas-smoking, boy-molesting tribesmen to kashmir where they can let of some steam and indlulge in a little blood letting ......"

...there is a better solution....why not let them go where they actually want to go, and fight the people they actually want to fight....

....i.e. let them go into afghanistan and fight the americans....

....why in the world are we being holier than the pope, and becoming a frontline state and fighting these guys, on behalf of the americans.....the americans are bombing them, and they are bombing us......something isn't quite correct in this scenario....

if they americans are bombing them, shouldn't they be bombing the americans....why are we hell-bent on protecting people in detroit, at the cost of people in swat and islamabad.....

...there has been a huge explosion in marriott, islamabad....i hope your family is safe.....as i have been saying, it is about time, pakistan got out of this war, and let these guys fight it out with the americans in afghanistan.....instead of against pakistan in islamabad.....

Re: # 38
[ the reaction from the paki side would be just as strong]

Sure, react all you want but keep your jihadis on your side. And remember that Pakistan is a small country! You guys are srtuck with your limited size, your limited means, and your limited options!

Not to mention that Jinnahesque highly limited mindset!

Re: # 37

bj,

..... this was a controlled experiment and it worked ..... the intensity of your, and that indian house moslem's, response proves my point ...... the reaction from the paki side would be just as strong ... so, if we were to start something with india we can resolve the fata issue in a minute ...... that's all i was trying to say - nothing personal ..... nothing unites us pakis quicker than a confrontation with the horrible hindoo .... and the same is true for you guys, regardless of your sheepish smiles and obeisant sideways head shaking ......