Fathers and Daughters

Thanks Morni, for you and for bali:

Shama hai koyee Musafir nahin


Shama hai koyee musafir nahin

jitnei badal chahai jala do
jultai badal thundee shamon mei pighalein toh...

it is the cool of the evening
that will keep us strong

jitnee jaan azaab mei daaltei ho tum
haar jaanei do aik aur lehr ko

sub sahein gay hum...
jaan leitei ho, toh leitei raho
khuun behta hai, toh behnei do

aaj moseequi kee baat kiyei bina
ghar laut kei nahin jayei gay hum

Shama hai koyee musafir nahin

awaaz bulund hai, haarai nahin abhee hum....

it will be the fire of the soul
that will keep us strong

shama ko jultee bujhtee rehnei do
shama hai, koyee musafar nahin



Stay this wayyy


معرآج

A word is dead when is said, some say, i say it just begins to live that day,...Fathers and Daughters ,is just begins to live.Morni.

lol..what on earth is OTW, ok I looked it up "the MeiraJ-Masadi Debate" lol...every time I think I'm about leaving, you people come up with things like this...haha

معرآج

MeiraJ08
There is a thread dedicated to Fathers and Daughters on OTW.

#180 -- there is a time and place to speak about everything. Sometimes we want to not speak about things, thats cool as well. A mystery retains far more value in any relation, than by stating it as scientific facts.

I've not read Sons & Lovers yet, but I remembered the title, and in some ways it triggered this title. There is very little talk about this -- its beauty, its breath, its sensitivity.

You can find the best friend, he will read 500 poems and respond to each and every one.

معرآج

Re: # 183

... and vice versa

Re: # 178; madani sahib

what I meant was every masadi has his meiraj! .... sooner or later ... see, nature is well-balanced

btw sir .... a few wonderful and enlightening posts to read ... as always!

I may suggest you to read a beautiful novel, a touching novel by D H lawrence ( kind of self biography ) titled Sons and lovers. The prose is flowing and the sexual dynamics of yong man and mature woman. THat work elevates him as well as his sex guilt commplex and humanity. It is moving novel and there is no hot stuff. A last classical english novelist crossing and abandoning Victorian hypocracy once for all.
Good day.

One need to appreciate the shock value of Freud as it was accepted as all started with "original sex" between Adam and Eve... that is start of all.He had courage to say not to be feeling guilty about sexual activity. They were brain washed for thousands of years about "original sin".

Re: # 179 I will let my friend Mr. Masadi to talk for himself.
Now Freud had correctly observed the importance of "sex" in our life. It is my feeling as he wanted to stress those aspects so he was dramatic purposely and his points were made. He had to be dramatic as society was very puritan and controlled by guilt of Old testament which is sex oppressive and denying sexuality. The sex fear/sin had made Jews/ christians/ Muslims paranoid and still extreme oppressive in arab lands and denying sex content in society. That neurosis can be seen in behaviour by sexual pression and some times leading sex starvation and universal sex obsession.
This students( of freud) were much more less dramatic. Specially Mr. Adler in his writings.I can put Freud was like christ then adler and jung were like st. Paul who carried his message. To be first messenger he has to be dramatic and Freud was for sure.
Your article was very interesting and thanks for taking efforts to prsent it.
Good day.

#172 Ana, its hilarious. So of course it makes it 'fun' -- there you go, repeating what I just said, a second ago. Again.

: ) : )

#178, Very interesting Ahmed Madani Sahib, I really don't know what Masadi has been trying to get at, he posted at least 16 comments saying "Freud"..and yet not able to say one word beyond it.

It is true that I have learnt a great deal about this particular relation, Father and Daughter as friends -- from some of my European friends, fathers are far more aware of their daughters as 'women' as far as I could tell.

My father, always wanted me to be a warrior, and you all can pretty much see the results. lol...I grew up with mental stamina, usually reserved for the men. :-) In philosophy classes, I could usually argue with all the boys who never took arguments personally [it can kill an argument] but still believed in the argument itself.

At the end of our discussions, we were always able to say: "hey you raised some good points/how did you think of that!! " etc so as to sharpen our minds, as the goal was what rose out of the dialogue version debate: thesis, antithesis: synthesis.

These are all questions we must raise for our society, and dialogues we should be able to maintain, without people losing track of everything, we must be able to stay civil, and yet be able to argue, to exist, to fight for what we believe in, and yet see the other's point of view.

You just did all of that, very impressive. Masadi could learn from you. So could we all.

Freud, also talks of the "primal horde" which is an interesting idea, this is the 'killing of the father' that occurs in the men. I find this fascinating. His oedipal-complex theory is also men-based. The woman serving the pivotal role ofcourse, what story ever did not? :-)

I personally love Freud's work on "Melancholia" - that paper read in parts to me like poetry. Not that I'd follow it like the Bible or anything, but still it had some very, very good points. One, differentiating "Mourning" from "Melancholia."

Ever thought of Society -- as a whole -- suffering from a disease? What would our society be suffering from, in psychological terms? I have some ideas on this. There's so much that can be made simple.

Again, I wrote "Fathers & Daughters" because it is relevant.

Even, if it helps bring up "Freud" -- before a psychiatrist does that, why not know it yourself? Define life at your own terms, so no Masadis now or never can as much as harm you for a moment?

It is not about mild irritations, its about facing society, with a calm that nothing can shatter.

My father has brought me much strength in this regard, and I often have wanted to share it with my friends -- those who never knew strength like that.



معرآج

Re: # 162 Dr. Sahib I agree with you. But It may be different in my mind than yours.Can you elaborate kindly.Father and daughter relationship quite different than son or wife as women are more complex / nonlinear. General women are very complex as even women have hard time understanding each other.( Men are easy to read they are transparent)
We are all sexual ( provided we are alive) but with daughters we have sex difference as we have affection than sex. That becomes complex in sense fathers have great interest in daughters and they worry far more for them. That is also a emotion and you can say is sexual sublimation and that occurs with time even in couple's life as they age and they are more affectionate as time passes.Almost all fathers have no erotic feeling towards them but of affection and care. There is more appreciation of daughters of their fathers as time passes. Women are lover for very short time but they are all time nurturers and care givers. I tell it from my experience and there is no competitive attitude between them as sons. THat can be seen from - all sons are compared to fathers but not with daughters are not compared or measured against fathers. I observed even in animal Kingdom. I had male cat recently passed away and My other cat with me is his daughter. I observed behavior of both and there was no incest ( which I was afraid off). Old cat some times use to go on wandering for few days.When he returned he use to come stand opposite his daughter and she will get up and greet him,he will lick her 3 to 4 times on head to show his affection and then he will go to sleep. As in sex most important organ is brain ( as per Per Vatsyana/ author of Kamsutra) conciously we have subtle differentiation and is amazing. That relationship is complex in Arab societies for varipous reasons ( basically lack of sex content in social life and sexual repression of women). Most arab tribals are at loss to deal with daughters and to avoid problems they just shun each other. This may be due to sense of guilt as Messaenger of god (PBUH) married his step daughter but that was different as god directed.THey may be afraid of daughters sexuality ? While european societies daughter sexuality is taken for granted by father and so automatic sublimation to affection. Obviously there factor of survival and biological subflow in affection ( your favourite book of Darwin).
There are more complex aspects but no place to go to it.
I got curious about your comment, was wondering what aspect was predominant in your mind. Speculation is normally wrong.
Good Day.

Order Order!
Lets put back on the right perspective. See this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJgf6WTDEGo&feature=related

Mr Masadi: It is always such a relief to see that I am not the only one on chowk who does not come up to your standards.

Now, take a hike, and have a nice day.

Meira writes "oh come on man, have the guts and speak your mind, and show us all the filth that you are..."

I wont oblige you but you certainly have shown us what kind of "filth" you are by your desire to see in black and white what Freud said even though most people with a high school education know what it is. It is similar "filth" to what you have produced which is little different to crayon scratch that kids do, the only difference is that unlike kids you're claiming Picasso for it! Go figure, that is why Pakistan is in the garbage dump these days, because of people and youth like you.

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Meira writes "Masadi, conception - conceiving, is part of imagination, creating...part of giving it existence. I introduced new meanings there..."

You certainly did introduce "new" meanings, ones that show us that you have no clue about the words in question. The opposing part was truly idiotic, plain dumb idiotic on your part. Laugh all you want the garbage you have produced only befits chowk front page.

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

I happen to think that this world is still fun even with the Masadis in the world. I don't think that masadi being a professor is that funny, or fodder for ridicule, no matter how much he annoys, angers and just plain irritates people.

haha Ana.....are you serious Masadi is a Professeur?

LOLLLLLLLLLL I swear I love Chowk I haven't laughed this much in my life.......no wonder this world is no fun anymore, Masadis are professeurs hahaha
-------

and by the way, for my wonderful Pakistanis, no one can beat our style, listen to what the Europeans had to say about this one [Masadi's moon concerns, hahaha lol] I knew they'd love it, ok here goes, bringing you treasures:

LOL

Konstantine writes:
"HOW CAN SOMEBODY PUT SO MUCH OF AN IDIOT IN ONE SINGLE BRAIN?????????
I SIMPLY CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE'S WRITTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!!! JESUS, I THOUGHT I HAD SEEN IT ALL!

Phoenix, I once wrote a story about twin clouds which flew against the wind. I wrote it when I was living in Navarre. Everybody loved it. It's called The Story of the Secret.
I fell off the chair after reading your Avignon quote, it's superb!
"

معرآج

no wait, i've got my songs mixed up. It's your blue dress!

Fatima:

I think you're the devil! Now go put your red dress on! :D

Masadi, arre, if you know what Freud's theories are (for whatever they are worth anymore) than why do you give a rat's ass what anyone thinks haiN? You've got your degree, you are a professor in the social sciences. Let her dabble with her creativity, and let whatever interpretation you have of it, be that if you don't agree with her. Like I said to Fatima, there can only be so many rounds in a boxing match. :)

Now I must go eat some dinner. Khush raho!

OK everyone I got to go, work to do.

Let Masadi claim his insecticide for a day, we'll let it sit in the public stare, I'll come tomorrow.

Au Revoir

معرآج

#161, oh Masadi another "you know it you know it" "Freud freud" "fathers , fathers, err, umm so I so I as if as if"

oh come on man, have the guts and speak your mind, and show us all the filth that you are. In clear daylight. We want to see you. Bolo, and don't keep running away with "oh you know you know" "Im such a scurrying little pained ___and no one reads my articles boo hoo " awwww bechaaara masadi, what did freud say, batao na, kia hai aap ke dil mei zara khul kei kahiyei.

Freud said what?

by the way Freud also said, those who believe in God are
Schizophrenic --

Continue with care, Masadi.

معرآج

""Name of the Rose""

Sean Connery movie...yup seen it. Was fun.

This is an interesting debate...much more "energetic" than the Obama / McCain one.

But unfortunately, there can be no winners. Cause if either one wins, both lose :(
with much respect,
thinking storm

Ah Ana, I do see your point. :-)

------------

Masadi, conception - conceiving, is part of imagination, creating...part of giving it existence. I introduced new meanings there. [you can do so, in any essay, given you highlight how meanings will be used within a given context.
This is true for all essays, not just creative writing.]
I did clarify this:

Imagination Vs Creativity [opposing each other, one concieves, the other creates]"

That bracketed information existed, for you to grasp the more narrower transcription of the words "imagination"
[to imagine] creativity: creates"

I don't know why I should explain this again [this is a waste of my time, but you're so slow. You really didn't get that?

Wow.

"Internal logic" my dear Sir, if the moon can run after me, so can the wind bring it to me, one follows the other?

--------
This is what I hate these masadi types most for, making the 'laughter' die away...this is exactly what i hate you for.

So we now know, that we are enemies. But you don't believe in laughter, merry-making, imagination, creativity...

and I don't believe in minds from the dark ages. Thanks for letting me know why. I do treasure all this. It will work so well into so many themes in my writing. You people give me a chance for 'live-experiments.'

Hmm, very interesting.

Has anyone seen or read "Name of the Rose"? In that movie there's a person like Masadi who goes around chanting that there should be no 'laughter' as it is a sign of EVIL.
And he wants to burn all the books that record any signs of it. He also murders for it.

Can't we see people as characters here, and lighten the whole scene up?

I am surprised that no one has called me "Evil"/Devil/ etc yet, I was sooooooooooooooooooooooo looking forward to it.
Damn it!


معرآج

Ana writes "And yes, you've proven you know how to respond to the Masadi. "

Yeah and the response was "what is freud's theory regarding daughters and fathers" and if you don't state the obvious here you are illiterate! A fine "response" befitting an illiterate who thinks that after getting a graduate degree in the social sciences I still haven't been exposed to Freud.

I always did think there was a balance of sorts in nature!

Meira writes "What happened to your Freudian Hypothesis? "

It was not "my" hypothesis. It was Freud's and it is well known regarding why girls bond with their fathers. It need not be spelled out. Little or not, your mentality remains that of a product of the Pakistani colonial education, which is something unfortunate the Brits forced on us and thereby took the soul and all good reason out of our "educated" folk

Have a nice day,
TNI masadi

Fatima:

BuzurgoN ke saath adab se baat karna naik kaam hai. :) There are a few exceptions which you will figure out for yourself. And yes, you've proven you know how to respond to the Masadi.

We buzurgs don't mind watching the fight. We just think there should be a limit to how many rounds there are. Like Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier could not have gone on forever. But boogie on reggae woman. . .you've got it going on!

Meira writes "So you accept the first clause, that is the moon was running after me? How probable or improbable is that? can the moon run after little girls?"

Ms illiterate, what I was saying was that even the internal logic of your imagery is all messed up. But as HP said, I will "Lay off". I would definitely not encourage your kind of contrived writing. Imagination itself should be based on some logical/factual data, unlike your imagination which is more like that coming out of a brain on drugs, or as some would ask : "What have you been smokin?"

#154 the author writes "You're a novice reader. The themes to look for in this particular paragraph were: Imagination Vs Creativity [opposing each other, one concieves, the other creates]"

HP sahib this is what I am talking about:

She is forcing things without understanding. Here she tries to force disunity among unity. Conception and creativity are opposites she says! Please explain how conception and creativity are opposites unless you're a lever pushing moron where you have no clue about what is being produced, regarding culture as in current day USA. Imagination is the key to creativity and just like your "piece", the current day social setup stifles it.

It is like reading the mumbo jumbo in the Gita and then some GURU walks along and say, no no you don't get it, it is all symbolism for how to conquer the cosmos and become one with the spirit when all it is is symbolism for how to properly lay out a corn field....

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

146, Another masterpiece from the "literate". She writes " used to run after the moon, but in the car that my father drove, the moon was always running after him. I could watch it come so near to us, the wind sending it our way."

If the "moon" was running after you the "wind" which blows from the front to back of a driving car can NEVER drive it your way, it is pushing it away not your way."

----------
#146, Ah Masadi, you do make me laugh. This is really one of the best responses I ever got for anything I wrote. I must share it with my friends. You'll give us all something to laugh away the night with...(sigh! the poets...

Ok, ahem, coming back to your *noble,able and what is the word you'd like to call it Masadi? come I'll just call it that. there, there, don't fret. Lol

haha, ok sorry, yes so,

"If the "moon" was running after you the "wind" which blows from the front to back of a driving car can NEVER drive it your way, it is pushing it away not your way."
is what Mr. Masadi writes. lol hahaha

So you accept the first clause, that is the moon was running after me? How probable or improbable is that? can the moon run after little girls?
Lol, assuming it does do that, every tuesday, wouldn't the wind allow it? For this, we must carry out a simple experiment, to really find out HOW

"the "wind" which blows from the front to back of a driving car can NEVER drive it your way, it is pushing it away not your way"

Hmmmm, given my current experiment with the moon, and memory in its wind, you might have a point there masadi, the wind is perhaps not the driving force, the moon and the wind seems to be the fire beneath it, symbol of water/fire...

and you know my father used to argue with me that those two qualities cannot exist together. So I think that is coming up, the tension of that argument, I always felt you could encompass two opposing qualities.

Interesting discussion, thanks for the thoughts.

By the way, what happened to your Freudian Hypothesis? Or has that too gone to the moon, all lunar eclipsed by the wind? I do think the wind is the driving force here though.

---------
Creative Writing, Mr. Masadi, makes the ordinary resemble the extraordinary. We do this, not for stylistic errors, but to show that these two perceptions are not very irrelevant to each other.

------------
A story for the listener:

When I visited the City of Avignon, which is blue and white to my mind, as is the color scheme of this piece [sea,blue,water /opposed to white/moon/clarity/stone]
I saw the statue of a man there, carved and standing in front of the Palace of the Popes,

In his hands he's holding a book, on which is written, in french:
"Je suis une erreur"
[I am an Error]

The man keeps laughing, and there is water pouring down constantly over the entire length of his body, that is made of golden and burnt bold bronze.



معرآج

HP writes "Come on asadi,

She is just a young lady, a bit cocky but is not disrespecting anyone. You are a professor..."

HP sahib thank you for your kind and gracious advice. I merely joked about Freud and she got on my case, and then the comment about illiteracy supplemented by Ana calling me an idiot was provocative. I might have overreacted. There is nothing special about me but I am not illiterate, and Ms Meira think harder and don't try to invent creativity, it will come naturally once you think harder.

Have a nice day, and thank you HP sahib. Manto needs taken care of, I will let you go take care of that ignoramus.

TNI Masadi

I feel this is a good dialog, if only it was not punctuated with thappaRds :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

#142, The font is not "Arabic, it is "Urdu." I love it because it resembles a cat typographically the way it is placed, it also reminds me of a snake. Both are highly seductive symbols to me.

#146
Let me 'educate' you on how to receive such a delicate article. First of all, the passage you quote, is from the 'perspective' of the author which it is a 'child-narrative'
Children, specially daughters 'listen' to their fathers like that. The symbols are crashing in the mind of the child, not the 'father figure.'-- who comes forth as a distant, silent figure, captured in imagination of his daughter.

You're a novice reader. The themes to look for in this particular paragraph were: Imagination Vs Creativity [opposing each other, one concieves, the other creates]
The other themes one could possibly point out would be:
Child Vs Father, and the abstraction of it, as daughter Vs Imaginary Figure who 'believes and talks of the moon'
As she hears it its what it starts to mean to her,
he probably spoke of it, in distant ways. It is her imagination that colors it with the child's sensitivity to the father. [of which no father can find a replacement ever, no one will ever look at you like that again --]

Just some of the ideas running here. Ok, so to your next quotation. [by the way, its a good start, to at least try to give words your inabilities.] Bravo.

معرآج

MeiraJ08,

I'm encouraging temper, or....energy...just making the two participants of this energetic dialog, aware of it, in case one party was not aware :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Come on asadi,

She is just a young lady, a bit cocky but is not disrespecting anyone. You are a professor, you need to encourage her or just let it go.

Btw, Moon does have fingers...it takes a little imagination to figure this out. Now can you figure that out?

#150, T.S there's logic in every poem I wrote, as much as there is logic in language -- you speak it, but can you 'analyze' how you say what, when and where?

Temper, Vemper: T, its energy, understand it like so. Or would you like to assume hurricanes have an 'emotional quality'? No, mate, hurricanes are just hurricanes. There's no god behind it. That's adding 'emotionalism' to an occurence.

This is also how science understands it. As a process, some go far to say with the "Gaia Hypothesis" that Earth has a natural eco-control system. But scientists don't talk about "God" in their hypothesis, neither do I talk about "one single illogical line" in anything I ever wrote.

Making a fuss about temper, seems to me, like making a fuss about 'being controlled' -- they are two different ways of being. Take your pick. whats the big deal, either way?

--Fatima.

معرآج

okay I think it is time for me to play some sort of a calming role here.

1. Masadi sahib, we both know why you're not getting published, and a lot of other folks do too. Chowk editors are biased and petty, they've got a grudge against you, plain and simple. You can school most of the so called intellectuals on this site, especially now that you do it without losing your temper. Er...okay...till recently TNI Masadi was working :)

2. Creative writing is exactly that. It is meant to evoke emotions, not logic. For logical cause and effect, we can read your work, for creative analogies and emotions, we can read MeiraJ08's work.

3. Although Masadi admits it and MeriaJ08 doesn't, both of you have a temper and you let loose often :). Hey, that's all good. I'm tired of enduring polite mediocrity. So bring on the rude brilliance, we're up for it.

4. Bicker amongst each other, sure. But let's not carry it too far. For it is apparent to all that we are slowly beginning to form a community of Pakistani thinkers/agitators/poets/writers . This is great news. So bicker yes, but let's carry on with the work.

5. Che, please ensure that we are all supplied with quality afghan ghaans.

Fair?

with much respect,
thinking storm

uh-oh

two massive brains are about to collide
with much respect,
thinking storm

And don't mess with me when you don't have the brains to do so....

The author writes "All the time he is talking about currency markets and foreign exchange, and yet the constant in his language came to be, what was constant to me as well: the moon. He had a theory that the moon affected the waves..."

Like all petty bourgeoisie capitalist wannabe, you father just like you is an ignoramus. It is not "his" theory but a well known "theory", and the gravitational pull of the moon has nothing whatsoever to do with theories of life, there is no connection whatsoever, this generalization is the generalization of an ignoramus who suffers from schnizophrenia.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Another masterpiece from the "literate". She writes " used to run after the moon, but in the car that my father drove, the moon was always running after him. I could watch it come so near to us, the wind sending it our way."

If the "moon" was running after you the "wind" which blows from the front to back of a driving car can NEVER drive it your way, it is pushing it away not your way. Now we can debate my literacy but atleast try to correct your BS before you make claims at creative writing.

Some masterpieces from the author

"Years later, he gaveme a ring which could have been stolen from one of the moon’s fingers. "

Something like "the moon is made of cheese" Now I can appreciate efforts at trying to be creative but atleast try to make some semblance of analogical comparison for "creativity" to work, not this kind of bs.

Thought the chowk police got me!

testing

Meiraj writes "I maintain, if you want to speak about something, next time please actually have something to say. "

Looking at your posts, and this article you wrote about "nothing", I can safely conclude that you have introspected and understood yourself in the above comments. Now please act on your own advice and shut up. And that Arabic signature you've adopted, it is just plain simple tacky, drop it.

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi


Ana, I do not think the reason you list is the reason you keep following my posts around. It is in their intellectual quality that the trace lies. Don't lie and don't dare call masadi sahib an idiot. Thank you kindly

who is this meiraj chica....I like it!! a little sassy!!

Ana, I can't tell the difference in silences, either. Chica, not all those who are silent, are revolutionaries.

And thanks for coming after I've beat everyone, as you usually do, and pretend you know what its all about.

I can argue well, that's why I do. Besides, I have fun.

معرآج

MeiraJ,

a few words of advice. It is best not to engage masadi in longish arguments. Have you not heard that saying "never argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

I forget that every once in a while with more than a few Chowkies. :)

peace!

oh, greetings masadi. . baal bacha theek?!

Masadi, not just are you illiterate, and unable to say more than a few words, repeatedly with not even an accent that is different, you're also unbearably boring -- no wonder your articles are never posted here.

We don't want to know who you are, nor what your ideas are.

I maintain, if you want to speak about something, next time please actually have something to say.

What a loser.

معرآج

MeiraJ writes "Prayer to the one God:
Dear God, let Masadi nor his brother have a daughter.
rab-e-zidnee-ilmaa"

Actually your posts like the above reveal your illiteracy not mine. Do a little reading on what I have written before you conclude anything about my "schooling".

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

#123 Message for T.S

Thanks for the Argentina ref, I had to ask her about it then..lol so here goes, D just sent me this:
CHE GUEVARA

"They ain't got the least idea who Che Guevara was. I know his family because I went to a Scottish school. The owner had rented the buildings and a vast garden to St. Peter's School, which I attended.
Che is a word meaning "HEY", only in Argentina. The other Latinamerican countries call us "the Ches", but it is contemptuous, they have always hated us for our origins. They say their ancestors were native indigenous people, and ours came from the "boats" (not ships). They hate our Italian and Spanish origins, they always have. It doesn't mean I don't understand them, I've always been received with open arms by all countries, but I cannot say that of my fellow citizens.
Guevara started as a hippy. He was a doctor in medicine, and he was an anarchist. His family didn't want to hear a word about him, but they kept sending him money for his journey. He was charismatic, and quite wild. Women were mad about him, but the last one, the one he really fell in love with and who pretended to love him, helped his enemies find him and kill him. She was his worse enemy, the real traitor in his life.
Another person who pretended to like him and, in fact would have loved to be like him, was Fidel Castro. He was happy to get him killed, because Guevara's personality and courage and culture and refined manners shed a terrible shadow over Fidel Castro, who finally did exactly the opposite of Che Guevara's dreams.
It's a long story, I know very many details, it's part of my story too, he changed many ideas in my country....I'll tel you later what it's all about. But you can post this is you want to. Every single detail I just wrote is absolutely true."

معرآج

At this point, I'd like to take a minute for the Chowk Editors:

Che Gavara, tum toh ho gawaara, koyee agar koyee kaam kar bhee raha hai, toh tumhei chain nahin hai.

They maintain this site, god alone knows the kind of anger I have seen on it, and they publish my articles. [That's pretty daring, I'm usually someone who is not prone to staying at a place more than a couple of months.]

I think they're doing a great job, its just that the writers need to do their own work. They are just the publishers, they provide the platform. Loser, himmat hai toh kuch likh ke dekhao na

kia auraton kee tarah taanei maar rahai ho interacts mei.

They are providing a platform. Its not their duty to write the articles.

معرآج

Rabia, LOL

معرآج

#113
"Waiting!"

this is the best fight ever. I had no idea that all the poetic people on chowk were so tough.

Yeah, scientist in my spare time, how'd you figure that out? [please don't say :"I don't know how the fuck I did"]

You're as boring as Masadi.


معرآج

PS: come on admit you like all my acts, Che, kiyon nahin kaha jaa raha , keh do ...kia farq par jayei ga.



معرآج

jaan gawanei kee baat na kijeyie, gavaraa sahib, its really a good article, and you won't find another like it. Read it, if you get a chance. before you annhilate, arey pardh toh lijeye..

khiskay huwe is fine, the rest describes you better, so you can keep them. : D

معرآج

KisKa?J08, abay jaan laygee kya? I will not read your article for the principle of the whole thing although I'm sure its tolerably alright for Chowk standards (where interactors matter not the writers). Waisai tbh, I find your variety of insecure, delusional, khiskay huay people quite entertaining as opposed to the boring repetitive Masadi variety. You should definitely post on unplugged you seem like a natural and would fit right in.

p.s.: Stormy, like I said I like the new tortured artist drama queen act, and to think she's a scientist in her spare time. Great for science and great for chowk.

lol



معرآج

Re: # 126

Gul sahib, as the old saying goes...every little bit helps! :))

Getting 125 interacts is a method.

Oops, that was meant for Naqshbandi sahib!

Masadi miaN, how does it feel to be called "nb"?

I always knew you had a "soft" streak in you! :)

"
Did any of you go to school??"

Not I.

I'm merely another instance of the illiterate, blissfully ignorant, highly imaginative, unwashed masses :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

NOTE: As much as you all love talking to me, I have to leave now. Talk to you all tomorrow!

Prayer to the one God:
Dear God, let Masadi nor his brother have a daughter.
rab-e-zidnee-ilmaa

-------------
Ciao, over and out. Till Tomorrow.
Got too much work to do.

معرآج

Masadi, when people write "Surely" it tells me of their insecurity.
Try using words like "I think"

and defend your position. This is done by using samples from the writing in question, posing intelligent references and making a coherent argument.

Did any of you go to school??

Just wondering.

معرآج

uh-oh...if the old masadi comes back, we shall all be in trouble ...
with much respect,
thinking storm

by the way T.S talking about codes, notice 'ch' as a word-initial sound, and notice the rest in native languages.
Interesting experiment. These are the kinds I like to make on written words & people.

Welcome to my Laboratory :-)

معرآج

Meira writes "Masadi,

Why mention something that you can't defend or care for? "

Something I cannot defend? Surely you don't think that your "piece" is worth more than what Freud said, even though he was a shrink? Like I said, there was pun in the comment to your rather vaguely and dimly made statement, that is all and that was it.

Now take a chill pill, and write something worthwhile.

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

116 Ah Argentina, what is with this place....it changed my life a few months ago...now the languages are drifting, drifting, the meanings become clear. What a place, I must visit her one day.

معرآج

MeriaJ,

Che's a good guy, but given the hobby of cultivating fine grass, that he and I share, he's given to watching more than reading. The more psychedelic the better :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

MEiraJ08,

Che Guevara, the Argentinian dude, is my revolutionary hero...and I too was impressed that our Karachi che used the nick.

However Karachi che will only pick a fight if you mess with one of two things: 1. Karachi walas, or 2. His stash of grass.

with much respect,
thinking storm

T.S
"
Che yaar,

It is truly unorthodox of you to leave a clarifying reply"


LOL haha really is he like that...u're hilarious.

معرآج

"Ok I confess I have no idea wtf avant garde means"

Salman Rushdie will watch out of course, a good writer will know the other.

Statistics matter at infinitesimal units, when lab results matter to you. but that's scientist stuff.

We'll just get another..

"ok I admit I don't know what the fuck scientist stuff means"

from Cheguevara [original nick by the way, never seen that one before]

Besides, Cheg, sweetheart, now hear this:
I do know what the fuck avant garde means. Scientist stuff too, but that'll be too much for you.

And if you 'didn't read' my work, I suggest you do so, and then make another intelligent comment about it. [Thats the way it works.] How many things must I explain to ch. gavara.
But we'll give him another try.

Waiting!

معرآج

Che

"but I still have a soft spot for you"

why, cause she's a karachi-ite?

such bias. tsk tsk tsk
with much respect,
thinking storm

Che yaar,

It is truly unorthodox of you to leave a clarifying reply. Good on you mate... :)

I must also admonish you for smoking low grade stuff...had I seen your response as more affirmative and less acidic, I would have assumed you had some quality stuff to smoke.

As it stands, I wish you better grass, for the grass is indeed greener on the other side ;)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Meira sweetheart you are clearly fucking insane and paranoid but I still have a soft spot for you, which, is why I will take the unusual step of explaining one of my posts so feel special.

"I didn't read the article because sappy stuff kind of makes me cringe a little "

Yes its true it really does. I'm sure many people cried, found hope in life and decided not to put a gun to the roof of their mouth because of it but I didn't read because its not my kind of thing. The purpose of this line was basically to outline that I would not be contributing to this discussion and would instead comment on something totally irrelevant.

"(sorry no offense I like your other stuff very avant garde)"

Ok I confess I have no idea wtf avant garde means but its gotten you into a right fit and has caused you to interpret a compliment as being an insult. Either that or you have a great deal of pent up anger against me for some reason (in which case I really don't give a shit).

"but I just had to drop by and say wow as "are you taking the piss mate?" at this:"

While this part of the post may have caused some confusion due to a terrible keyboard but it would not be difficult to understand that it was referring to the post made by a relapsed Mr. M. Asadi.

"Have a nice day and don't give yourself too much importance, that is a prime tendency in the inherently unimportant"

When Mr. Asadi says this he is essentially PWN3ing himself. As quite a few of us long time chowkies know he has more than a slight tendency towards self-aggrandizement and megalomania. The words "taking the piss" can be translated to mean "are you joking" or
"masadi, are you seriously accusing someone else o that? Nigga please."

I really cannot make myself any clearer. I wish you the best of luck in fighting the conformist yuppie pricks and will be with you in spirit and promise to appreciate your brilliance (3,000 views fukkin hell!!! Salman Rushdie watch out) while I smoke my last spliff of the night.

Cheguevara, I didn't get the rest of your comment, because I prefer people who make some commitment to life.

As far as the writing is concerned,

I realize I challenge. Its what I'm here to do. It's not anything particular to you, you're just part of the regular system, we hate talking about many things these days, at one time the Romantics have thrived. Those times are gone now.

Modernity is all right, you can tame it, I wrote it. But I prefer writing that is naked. You're too pre-programmed to read my work -- which is way original for its time.

Now before you all start thinking, "oh she's a snob, so intellectual" yada yada, please also understand that I fight for WRITING, because I live for Writing.

And thank God the modern yuppy dogs aren't the only ones that come wagging their tales for avant garde stuff, of which they grasp nothing of the concept.

Get back to those movements, and try to 'understand' what they were doing. Creating a new world is not easy, Mr. --
And that's what I am doing -- I will win & I will experiment.

If you have a problem with Chowk staff, for choosing this, [which I was impressed by] then you can contact them.

Btw, this article won 250 hits in a single, half a night over at the ilogs, where as my Avant Garde work won 50/60/or 70 in 2 days consistently.
Of my three writings here, this won 3000 views in over a day, do you know why CheGuevara?

because Fathers and Daughters, for whom it was written, need to hear it. We are tried of wanna be Avant Garde work, where everything n everything goes in the name of a movement, that's not even your own.

Reason why I talk to each person that talks to me? Because I consider human life to be a sane and real concept. And my language wasn't borrowed from the twisted sinews of dog's filth.

-----This piece, for others to read:

Is part of "MeiraJeS" -- and it has atleast 3 episodes, equally long in which this relationship isn't all that stable. [Its part of my Novel.]

----------------------

Masadi,

Why mention something that you can't defend or care for? I still find your attempts at writing comments, comical.


معرآج

Thinking sahib,

Please pardon the transgression, it is periodically necessary to show man(woman) their "limitations". They are often lost on the Anil types....

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Now now Masadi,

even after I gave such a wonderful intro to you, you put the TNI Masadi in the house, and came out with the old Masadi :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

I didn't read the article because sappy stuff kind of makes me cringe little (sorry no offense I like your other stuff very avant garde) but I just had to drop by and say wow as "are you taking the piss mate?" at this:


"don't give yourself too much importance, that is a prime tendency in the inherently unimportant...."

Because of violating the Hindu sensibilities of Chowk staff I had been banned for a day, now I am back. MeiraJ08, if you want to know about Freud why don't you google him. This forum is not for testing my knowledge about a shrink. I don't partake in shrinkery.

Have a nice day and don't give yourself too much importance, that is a prime tendency in the inherently unimportant....


TNI Masadi

#100, Nb, I have posted the 6th Mirage....here is the link:

http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/edit/69273

معرآج

#100, yes Nb, I realize that. It does get claustrophobic when each time we talk about books, are willingness to discuss literary concepts, is considered either "too intellectual" or "irrelevant."

How kind of you to want to take a look at my work...I'm going to look for an extract and post it on my page, I'll email you the link when its up.

I will just see this Ada link. There was a short novel of his I read, I just can't remember its name.

I love to meet anyone who is a reader, glad to make your acquaintance. : ) Ah, now we can talk BOOKS!!

معرآج

#99, ofcourse I am BJ, I am welcome because I bring so much to this community.
------------
BJ's very peculiar kind of insect violence, is really an interesting phenomena to me. I might not be a trained but only an academic psychologist, however I do hold, in simple exchanges of people, we get glimpses of the psyche, of what their motivations are, of what they seek to destroy.

You can tell everything about a man, once you know what his enemy is.

All of these instances of life, are just what they are -- minor episodes, which won't hold out. Only one thing will -- your will to live & to survive.

-----------------
So here's my synopsis:

BJ's responses: "you think you are God's chosen people!!"

will continue to be a question to my mind, as I do not understand, what is the nature of this rivalry -- and why on earth does he have a diagram on his site, "India/Pakistani" where he has put the circle on the heart in a way that it could cripple, of what I can understand.

I still insist, this is some psychological disorder, and it seems that the fanatics can appear in any shape. Not just good ol' taliban brothers. That one line, stays, why did he say it?

-------------
End of Case File Study - till further discussion.

معرآج

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/02/lifetimes/nab-r-ada-appel.html

MeiraJ,

Yes I would love to read your stuff. Books are my life if truth be told. I'm rarely without one. Have you read Nabokov's Ada? It too transports you to a place few writers can go. Magnificent. See, I don't meet many fellow desis who are so into books and reading and language as I am (at the risk of sounding arrogant) and THAT is why I gave you my email and said lets talk about books, baby...!!!
Ada Online:
http://www.ada.auckland.ac.nz/

:-)

thinkingstorm you're v funny.

Re: # 98

Meira, you are welcome!

too bad you're giving up on yourself bajra. remember, quitters are losers.

Not that we all didn't already know that. But as I said, as a psychologist, I am very interested in new creatures. albeit, they are half-creatures.

bye bye baby bajra. better luck next time. : - )

I appreciate you taking the toll of my article to 96 comments, I've beat MQM, never thought I'd actually get a chance to do that. Thanks so much BJ, for making this the biggest hit for me, yet.

Khuda-hafiz.
Humarai haan aisai kaha jata hai.

معرآج

[I'm a nice person.]

I am absolutely sure that you do not bite! :)

Then again, perhaps you did.

My dear Meira,

If you don't mind my being bold enough to make a suggestion, you should consider dropping this act of writing sento stuff. It was boring.

Instead, go for the exciting, insulting, tearing-apart (or at least roaring loud) stuff. That's what you were meant to do. Let the tigress come out. I think that is more your style!

Now, with regret, I must hit the bed so I can put in my eight hours of work tomorrow morning.

I understand you are not fully satisfied with our little conversation here but alas...

Tonight you will go to bed less than satisfied!

"Since the days of...since the days of...."

"As if....as if ...."

Hmmm, interesting. you want to express something, but you can't. what is it bajra, stay with the topic, go on, lets hear you, a little more and perhaps the kundalini will come, try again bajra. come on once more.

its because you're trying so hard, that I must talk to you.
I'm a nice person.

معرآج

Re: # 93

Meira, good Lord! I have never had anyone become so upset at me since the days of...

Since the days of...

Never mind!

Just write a better piece the next time, okay! And leave your shrinking hat home.

oh he's alive.

Ok so Bajra, how long have you felt this India-Pakistani crap?
I mean your belief that by drawing little diagrams and practicising kundalini-yoga you can perform better?

The psychiatrist can only treat you if you keep answering the questions, now come on. Speak.

معرآج

hello? you didn't die did you? whats with this new virtual-psychiatry, Fatima the things you come up with....

معرآج

Re: # 90

Meira, I do not mean to discourage you. I hope you become a successful writer. However, it is probably a good idea not to let that "published" writer bit go to that little head!

When it comes to "published" writers -- they come dime a dozen -- especially in this day of the internet and especially on this website. And as far as being an editor is concerned -- we are all well aware of the editorial quality here. I am sure that the chowk editors exercise the highest level of quality control possible (as long as it does not require actually reading stuff.)

But don't let me get in the way. If you are happy with your own piece and some dumbass accolades from a bunch of no-name interactors makes you feel like a real writer -- more power to you!

You are no less entitled to your fix than many of the other individuals here!

I'm not a new writer, BJ. I am a published Author, an Editor, and a bilingual speaker, at a European Site.

who are you? **** yaaawn, this is the most tiring and boring conversation i've had yet at chowk...so ok...continue...if you have to. I guess I'll have to be the one who sees you.

So how long have you been feeling this way? *wait, let me get my notebook titled Psykos, must put you in the right folder....perhaps you'll create an interesting side-character to some plot...

lets see what you got...jee bajra sahib, ....how many times have you fainted while....

معرآج

Re: # 87

Look Meira, you need not blow your top simply because my honest opinions rub you the wrong way. Lord knows I try to be kind to new writers -- and I certainly wish you better luck next time.

Look at the bright side, though! Even with a crappy piece like this, your wages (I mean monetarily) are exactly the same which those would be had you hit it out of the ball park!

So, cheer up, dearie!

that was, *my piece.

معرآج

the only aimless thing that happened near* it yet, was you.

At one point, you are saying you can't stand reading by piece.
At another, you are comparing me to THE psychiatrist on the team.

You really believe, after reading this piece, that I can treat you better, J?

Thank you for the faith. But I don't deal with psykos, that department still belongs to Dr. Sohail. I am more interested in the thinkers and dreamers, and rightfully I will find them, after all, as you pointed out, we are the "god's chosen people"
(!)

I can't let my dreamers go. And we have many, I know that.

So over to Dr. Sohail, Dr. Sahib ye vala case aap sanbhal leejiyei.

We don't compete like that BJ, even though I know I'm good, I've done psychology for 15 years now. But your case has to be handled by Sohail, because he has more free time for you.

معرآج

Re:#84

Meira, I try to ignore all "J"s very consciously. (You will have to ask the Manto why.) And BTW, Dr. Sohail is already the resident shrink here and he is unlikely to let you grab his job without putting up a fight!

The problems with your piece are...

(1) it starts out aimlessly.

(2) it goes on aimlessly.

(3) it ends aimlessly.

(4) it is almost insufferable.

(5) there is no story.

(6) there is too much naseehat being imparted!

(7) the writer appears too close to it.

I am glad there are people here who say that they like it. It proves that chowk has many kind-hearted souls still around. Good for them!

by the way, the crap you have pasted on your pathetic page, do you call that 'writing'? Its not fit to be read by dogs, no wonder you've selected 'no comments' --

poor baby, BJ. awwwww he can't really speak. so sad, you've not been able to write one coherent line, just look at the stuff you've produced here.

And where did the democracy and god's chosen people come from? Lol

you're completely irrelevant, and off-the-topic bro.

Now get out of here.

معرآج

First of all BJ, the name is not Meira, it is MeiraJ, with the "J" -- can you see the "J" yes this is called a "J" inverted it would be a flap, only when you let it roll of the t,d clan. Cute, isn't it?

What are you so insecure about? What's all this.
you're shivering as you speak...kiyon itna durr rahai ho?

sowen-maba qweebit maba, qwegun qwegun.


معرآج

Re: # 80

Look Meira, it is not as if people like me don't understand the pain of childbirth or don't love babies but one of the mistakes we make as parents is to get too fascinated with our own little ones and see nothing but perfection in the same. It is especially true of the Pakistani lot. You guys have convinced yourself that you guys can do no wrong! The result is -- everything comes out wrong.

You guys think you are Allah's chosen people while the rest of the world thinks you are Allah's chosen namoonas!

You guys think you have invented "real" democracy while the rest of the world lags behind clutching regular old-fashioned democracy!

There are countless other examples.

When you sit behind that keyboard, you can not become captive to what shows up on the screen. You got to retain control.

You need to write -- not let those words write you!

interesting word-choices:
"
u know as well as I that this piece is little more than as if...as if... a seven-year old were sitting in gushalkhaana daydreaming while trying (not so hurriedly) to... well, to finish the business at hand!"

BJ, I understand your nervousness, but I"m interested. So what have you read in your life? [books i mean]


معرآج

Re: # 79

Kambakhat storm, you know as well as I that this piece is little more than as if...as if... a seven-year old were sitting in gushalkhaana daydreaming while trying (not so hurriedly) to... well, to finish the business at hand!

It starts without a point, it rambles on and without getting anywhere and without making any point and without any warning, dissolves into nothingness.

I wanted to be kind to Meira here, but she should have accepted my gentle words of compassion instead of probing smugly like only seven-year olds can do.

That's the real trouble with you Pakistanis. You never have learnt the value of quitting while you were "ahead"!

(Shaking head icon)

बीजेक�मार

I trust you. -- i asked coz i could count the aimlessness, there was a lot of it, before and around what i wrote, quite at one stretch, but crafting it took a lifetime of longing.

qweebit sowen, aashish maji sowen, maba sowen, shikijek-katabat tana sowen, sid qwegun sowen
maba epichuk sowen.

معرآج

BJ2 can't see two feet in front of his face these days, let alone read the fine print on the web. Mostly we ignore him, if he bumps into us, we give him a hard thudDa in the rear and set him off on his merry way again :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

And I have seen a few, trust me!

बीजेक�मार

Meira, trust me. I know aimless rambling when I see it.

BJ, what does that mean? I'm kind of part-fascinated that I can 'hear' this writing system, but not write it, could you translate it slowly?

---------
This piece is only safe cause I created it, its quite dangerous standing in the chaos, and its a huge step to give to a psyche of a nation, if anyone can read it the way its meant to be read.

Its resurrection, but yes I have acquired social-finesse in the day, haven't I.
---

The second 'piece' you mean the Maulana one?
The rambling, you mean at the comments?

----------
or do you notice 'aimless rambling' in the piece itself?

معرآج

The following was supposed to appear at the end of the previous interact.

बीजेक�मार

Fatima, nice piece! You picked a fairly safe topic and, notwithstanding the massive aimless rambling involved, the general effect is agreeable. Keep up the good work.

BTW, I kept looking for a point to this piece but (perhaps it is just me) gave up after it became too much work.

Talking about Maulana, please do read this, whoever is reading:

http://chowk.com/ilogs/69246/49029

------------------

TS, so whats the deal, what are the secrets. do let us know.
; )

معرآج

MeiraJ08,

who doesn't have real names? :o

Cheema sahib,

Maulana Toofani was banned for the simple act of submitting an article on FP about the Maulana Toofani revolution, and then bristling at the "editing" suggestions by the editors, which the Maulana considered censorship.

Of course he also got into an argument with a heathen afterwards...

at present he remains incarcerated.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 69; TS mian

have you 'retired' Maulana Tofaani? or is he merely 'incarcerated' at present? .... just curious

I'm completely confused....how come you people don't have real names?

معرآج

Rehmatullah Waliullah janab Naqshbandi, may your khutba be long and your rutba be buland! Ameen.

Janab-e-wala, you spiritual powers continue to astound me. Not only do you have time for a job, a family, miracles (getting deboned pigeons to fly whole again), you are mashallah an avid reader and send out your email on open forums. I'll take the opportunity God has offered and send you an email or two on important religious matters. Inshallah.


May your fragarance never be bottled and soled at Macy's in the discount rack for 15.99 a bottle.

Wassalam.
with much respect,
thinking storm

I wrote some stuff, in this vein, not many people have cared for it, [except one or two]...its what i really want to write...would you be interested in reading?

معرآج

I haven't read it cover to cover :-), but done a lot of research around the topic. Lucia is a huanting figure. At the moment I am studying linguistic patterns within the text, I could read it in one go [I do get it, thats the alarming part, but it transports me elsewhere, its very hard to return]

Thus I want to approach Joyce's mega-works with the tools of linguistical analysis.

I have read "Portrait of the Artist" long ago, and "Chamber Music" and actually he's been my guide in many ways.

I did read something of Nabakov's, at that time it didn't strike me as much as Joyce has done. He is a life-savior.

Writing is my passion, and finally I found someone far superior to everything I was, he had broken the barriers. His work on language and sound is insane. I have never read anything better or more complex.

Plus it gets me high. I can forget EVERYTHING, in just one paragraph. Its all written in that terrible place of laughter-tears-laughter___

There's a lot more I could say about this, but I don't know how interested anyone would be. I love his work.

معرآج

Nb, I was just poking fun at Masadi, and his areas of interest.

Don't get offended. but why would you do that, its a peculiar case.

Men get more offended these days, than women do. The world is changing, well at least something came of it.

معرآج

BTW, Fatima if you've really read Finnegan's Wake from cover to cover I'm impressed. I'm still half-way through Ulysses and its been a long time. I prefer Nabokov to be honest. A better writer and a better prose stylist. John Banville too.

Miss Fatima (and Mr? Masadi) please don't flatter yourselves. I'm happily married and was merely being friendly. Why do desis immediately jump to conclusions if a guy wishes to speak to a gyal?

If we want to know who we are, Art should be important to us all.
Its become a 'concept' in the air, and bringing it down to purpose and functionality requires a lot of work, and commitment.
Lekin agar humein politiks aur religion or zarooree kaamon se fursat millei...tab na!! :P

معرآج

"Art to the people" is indeed something we the people need.
with much respect,
thinking storm

#60, I don't know anything about him, T.S, new and improved, or old and worn-out. Really, I have no clue.

I never make temperamental comments, everything I say has a very decisive structure, and I can defend my positions -- I believe in what I fight for. This is not 'temperament' this is 'determination.'

Everything I have ever said here, was never made of blind anger, I'm actually quite poised, and try my hand at acting the energy that is required, to carry forth my work: bring Art to the People.

Art, as not confined by institutionalization of it, Art, as not destroyed by Psychiatrists, Art, that cannot be ridiculed by Mullahs.

If Masadi has a point, he has to be clear about it. If he doesn't, I suggest he doesn't speak up in the first place.
Its a waste of my time.



معرآج

MeiraJ08,

if I may interject on the behalf of Masadi.

Just as you bring interesting dialog and inventiveness to the poetic field; Masadi brings an eloquent rejection of the suger coated imperialistic politics of subjugation.

Like you, Masadi is very temperamental and not given to politically correct statements. Like you, he speaks his mind, even if it brings him scorn or ridicule.

The TNI (The new and improved)Masadi is trying a hand at humor as well, and is taking baby steps in this direction... and not yet full fluent :)

with much respect,
thinking storm

#55, what happened Mr. (noble) Masadi? Cat got your tongue?
No fatwa? nothing? Wow. I must be an excellent writer.

معرآج

Yes he is, rf.

معرآج

Fatima Mirza

May God give you and your dear father a long and happy life, many many thanks for this beautiful masterpiece.

By the way, is your father a FX person, reason I ask is beause I too was once in the same line of business and coincidentally have a daughter who happens to be studying abroad.

Mr. Masadi, I do not trust your words and humor much, with the comments I have seen you making. I do not expect anything 'real' from you for an article that I wrote.
Again, if you want to talk Freud, lets begin, it will be a long discussion, and we we can exchange notes with the psychiatrist on the unit, [Dr. Sohail, I believe.]

So lets hear it, why mention "Freud" -- can you explain this humor, since judging your previous comments at various places I often sense only blind anger from you. [respectedly]
Unless, the mention was a faus pas, in that case, lets let the issue rest. As its already quite real.

You have a Nice Day as well,


معرآج

#54, you apparently didn't get my "humor". I am still working on it, someday I will perfect the art.

Have a nice day and keep it real,
TNI Masadi

Mr. Masadi, I appreciate your knowledge of what occurs in an area that must be quite near to you as well, in one way or another.

I specifically used the word "Pakistan" to denote, our cultural values, our language and our tradition.

Between Freud, [whose work I am very familiar with] and Joyce, [whose daughter was treated by Jung, Freud's disciple] I prefer Joyce.

I can refer you to a great and real work if you want to know about Father-daughter relations since always:
"Finegan's Wake" -- By Joyce.

My question was rhetorical, and as I specifically wrote this piece thinking of the Chowk site, I wanted to pose that as a question to all of you and make you wonder about the possibilities of this relation -- which believe me, are more than Freud could ever imagine. His work is too elementary in this area, and only as a reflective of "Father-Son" relations, if you are referring to the "Electra-Complex"

Freud is better known for his "Oedipal-Complex" theory. Have you read it? Could you tell us what it means? (by the way do you have any sons.)

Thanks.

----------
Naqshbandi

I appreciate the comment, but Masadi has a point. :-)

معرآج

The author wrote "I sometimes wonder at what happens to father-daughter relations in Pakistan these days, or from always, I don’t know...."

I bet Freud knows, google him!

have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

naqsh get over yourself. Chowk is not a matchmaking site. Those kinds of activities require a higher office and a higher calling, the kind reflected by the Zardari/Palin meeting.

Have a nice day and I hope the spammers write you at your gmail address....

TNI Masadi

some beautiful passages fatima. welcome to chowk and thank you for a poignant, well-written article.

good to see a prose stylist on here.
email me at asifjuk@gmail.com

Lol!!!

Thanks Neembu

معرآج

It's undoubtedly one of the best pieces that ever adorned chowk FP. Good to see it here. For more comments please refer to your ilogs page. :)

Fatima,

This piece was startling and like nothing I've read. Kudos- hope to read more!

Thanks, Ras. : )

معرآج

Fatima Mirza,

This writing is just beautiful.

Very well done!

Ras

Dania --

These are complicated times, or perhaps since always we've been trained to act like brutal animals with no reign over our impulses.
I hear what you said, and I know its not easy to say all this, this piece was written on very strange blank areas, and I understand it could speak to people who have known this in different ways.
You have to be sensitive to the other, when he reads, when he responds.
But there's no way to teach people this anymore, since in school we are taught how to get grades that can kill everyone else. We excel.

I saw that this guy's response bothered you, and your second response was far more quiet than the first.

I suppose one day we will all quieten down. and there's nothing i can do about it.

-----------
Ejaz, Humera,

Thank you. I know you know.

معرآج

Peace.

معرآج

Re: # 42

... which to me seems a little erratic/strange to tell you the truth ... anyhow, none of my business .... I'll make myself scarce and won't be bothering you again

Re: # 41

.... though allow me to apologise if I caused offence somehow ... you reacted twice to the post in question but very differently on the two occasions

take care

Re: # 40

I am not trying to "equate" with anyone/thing .... I merely made an initial observation, based on the title of your article ... and wrote my personal take on it ... the rest just followed/evolved from others' posts

yeah that's what I was saying, forget it. This is too complicated.

I'm leaving. Its been a long day.

معرآج

Re: # 38

as indicated by the name "dania" as the addressee ... it was a response to HER post and NOT your write up

I meant this response:

dania

suffice to say that overhearing a conversation between my seven year old and her school friend .... her describing me as her 'bestest' friend in the whole world ... I don't think I need any other form of 'father-daughter communication' to validate our relashionship!

--------

You're trying to equate it with a lady whose father passed away a few years ago. Death complicates things. Wouldn't you agree? how do you 'validate' that communication?
Does it stop? This is another question, for another time.

Everybody has their own experiences, if you don't that's great.


معرآج

Re: # 36

huh????!!

I'm also talking about a time Cheema, than the things at hand were more than puppets, toy-shows, and trips to wonderland.

and the 'got to make it work' yeah I got it covered in my article.

How you have made these leaps and bounds, and mixing someone relationship to a father that passed away, with your silly notions of "Im a father." Get over it.

Grow up. You're gonna need to. If you want to teach your daughter how to do so.

: )
Smiling angelically**

daughters do that very well too, you know. : )

معرآج

Cheema, whatever works for you man. I hope you guys get an easy ride. For me it was tough and 'real.'

Though there's no doubt that your dad's your first hero, when you're a little girl. And thats cool too. I don't know what you're so angry about. she's just 7. Relax. get ready..its gonna be some ride.

معرآج

Yes and they know the art of getting their puppy stuff through. When I tease them I call them Blackmailers. The reply is always apt. 'tou aap na karain'. And then the old tree with its freckled trunk just bends.

Re: # 32; ijaz sahib

I am often told that 'she' has me wrapped around her little finger! that's what I was referring to .... daughters do tend to have that 'knack'!

Re: 31:

thanks chalta mian

Cheema,
Re: # 16
'I haven't quite got to your stage but observe with interest the little schemes and manipulations etc gradually progressing into an artform in its own right! .... I only hope it gets better though don't hold my breath ....'

I do not understand what you are implying cause a statement can have thousand meanings.

Great words akcheema....

Re: # 25; Fatima

it is not about 'hero-worship' or "my dad is bigger than yours" what I was referring to ..... it is more about interaction, an atmosphere of mutual understanding and respect and also having stacks of fun together which is important .... at a one to one level (regardless of age) ... eventually it becomes more and more about friendship (the genetic link is a given anyhow ... it is whatever more it could become over the years)

... many of the posts here allude to "an unspoken contract" or some other rubbish ... it is all a cop out .... relationships (regardless of their nature) need constant hardwork and effort and can't just be taken for granted ... otherwise it all becomes a 'necessity of circumstances and convenience' rather than a fulfilling experience in a true sense ... and it HAS to be more than just what societal expectations dictate/demand of us .... I know it doesn't sound all that "poetic" but reality and imagination have always been two different domains! (alas)

Dania, oh yes, you are welkomed here.....we are a lost race, but we mean well, really we do. We even play music, and let everyone know exactly what we feel. Stay.



معرآج

Fatima:

Your recollections and images struck a chord. Relationships must evolve to endure, and as time and circumstance changes your emotional contours it also casts familiar people and places into a new mold. Here's to changing, yet staying true.

Ejaz and Humera

I want to thank you, Fatima, but also tell Mr.....him that we're a peaceful country, so open to everybody that being a Catholic country we've elected for a two period (8 years in a row) a Muslim President. It says something about us, even if we're so far away from you, geographically speaking. You have the benefit of not being forced to read my comments, the username stands first, just skip me. I'll keep the word "welcome" in my memory, and that's good enough for me.

I can only imagine what could have been! If only I had a daughter.

#24 Cheema, probably because she's 7, and at that age, dinosaurs, lion kings, are all your best friends, and your father is your only hero.

I think Mr. Ijaz Gul's response came from a heart who knew of the suffering, which you're just a novice at.

Diana, here's what a Philosophy Professor in N.Y who is now a friend, writes about this article.

[Note for Everyone: Prof. S. Konecky is brilliant and sharp, never misses a thing, and by god it was tough being his student. He teaches Existentialism and Ethics at Hartwick College, N.Y, and his special area is Sartre's work.]
"
Fatima,

Sweet! Whether your father knew or knows he is a lucky man for his moon daughter, who understands the tenuousness of relations, especially father daughter relations. "

Phew! If after these years and experience (also 'as a father') he can say this, it tells me already what kind of man, makes the better man. Not the one who pretends [no Konecky, as every existentialist, could never do that], it is the one who has the guts to see things as they are. The 'terrible angst' of life. Yes, captain, I remember....existentialist angst.

[Its a Philosophy, over at the other side of things, Cheema, the Sartrian crowd feels not just is there NO relation without angst, there's no life without it.
They go further to say:
"A life without acknowledgment of the 'tenuousness' of ordinary occurrence, its essential angst, are lives lived in *bad faith* by people who never truly exist"

Here's some Sartre 101, for you. ; )

معرآج

Re: # 22; dania

suffice to say that overhearing a conversation between my seven year old and her school friend .... her describing me as her 'bestest' friend in the whole world ... I don't think I need any other form of 'father-daughter communication' to validate our relashionship!

#8#12#19

But Laddu cant dance sala

GOD! You brought back to me daddy’s little Princess!
At my age, (only one more year to reach my 50’s!), I can take some distance and agree with some men whose comments down here show the terrible need to facilitate communication between fathers and daughters. Yours is the story of this treasure, so wonderfully written it has brought tears to my eyes. The tears men are still not allowed to bathe their cheeks with, on this changing planet. But we, the daughters, can use our sensitivity and hear the sweet sour sound of the rain in our father’s hearts. Bless all men who acknowledge this. And bless you, dear soul, who through your art have been lingering in the position of the child a bit longer, as to understand the apprentice role while delaying our daughter full bloom into a woman, so as to showcase this treasure of a man a dad is to us.
We never pass our beginner stages in our relationship to our fathers. That’s what you convey us in such a poetic manner, and it is beneficial to many situations. Because we can later recognize the heart of a man, the man who holds back his worries from us, the man who takes care of all our needs, who “buys horses for our children and tells them tales under the moon on any beach around the world.�
You’ve honored all men in this wonderful piece, you’ve delved in this great secret, that mysterious bond between a man whose seed sprouted into a Sheherazade of small dimensions. You made me feel that even though I know I came out of my mother’s womb, I simply adored to be molded out of my father’s hands/stories/heart/love.
At the autumn of my life, when I’m allowed to watch quietly from the sidelines, there are two words into which my admiration for your skill at putting your heart in your hands and showing its bond to your dad, and the love and longing for my own father are blended:
THANK YOU!
(I’m the mother of a boy/man, and let me tell you that my father has helped me be my son’s Sheherazade when he was a child. Now I understand why he longs so much for a daughter)
Waving my hand to you from Buenos Aires,
Dania

Re: # 12; Laddu bhai

every cloud has a silver lining sir; imagine none of the alleged events had taken place .... would be a very dull world don't you reckon? .... nothing for us to talk about, day in day out!

good men die too soon. maybe Bali could have lived...but the music is all that has remained.

معرآج

Re: # 13

sure.........you are a good man!

Cheema,
The focus should be on this beautiful essay. We have a very sensitive and descriptive writer amongst us, we wish succeed.

Cheema,
It depends how and what relationship evolve.I felt empathy in what Fatima wrote.

In many other cases, such mysticism is not there or self interests take their toll.

Re: # 5; ijaz sahib

I haven't quite got to your stage but observe with interest the little schemes and manipulations etc gradually progressing into an artform in its own right! .... I only hope it gets better though don't hold my breath ....

as for the article, like I stated on your ilog Fatima, beautifully written!

laddu yar
tang na kar

ty

Laddu yaar,

I know you're hurting my good man, I know the muslims wronged you and your ancestors, magar mairay bhai, just leave one or two places where you participate with the topic and context at hand and let the pakis handle themselves :)

Now, let's try again.

Re: # 9

Jahil hun to poochoh Abu Bakr se.......uske dil par kya beeti thi .....

Gul Sahib, mei iss jumlei ka zikr kar rahee thee...

"I assure you the other side is far more complicated and solitary."

Rabia's comment was from 'the opposite' side.

معرآج

Re: # 7
not understood

oh its laddu again, 'off' as usual. Phir se parho, unpardh, jahil.

معرآج

http://pkpolitics.com/2008/09/29/live-with-talat-29-september-2008/

that was a great news from bajour tribes.......kill the Talibanis and their educated PAki supporters ....

lol Rabia, we were the ones with the silver bangles, and they, the ones with the cash and cures. ; )

I do protest, Mr. Gul, we have quite a side of our own..you should visit some time. :P

معرآج

"and said: “one comes back to one’s roots.� I despised his response. It was allowing me freedom, but only at the cost of a certainty I couldn’t really care for."

That's the best description of being young I've read. It's interesting that when one is young this particular thought makes one so angry!

A very captivating and haunting narrative. Being a father of two daughters growing of age and reasoning, I assure you the other side is far more complicated and solitary. Its like a hundred miles deep Ocean, very calm at the top, but what goes on deep down, very difficult to fathom.
Father and daughter is a communication that never is.Unlike a husband and wife, no one wishes to score brownies. Its that sense of loosing out that creates that strange feeling.
Ami keyay tu roze aa ja
Abuu bolay aitwar ni
Bhaiya boley na thein
Bhena chup rahien
Bhabi boli kabi kabar
Ni Babal

NHK, here you can have me, I belong to this community.
An absence is cruel, is it not?

معرآج

Hauntingly touching, sensitive & intimate with full of emotion, feelings & honesty.

Very well written. I hear that a daughter's love for parent far exceeds the Sons. (I wish I had a daughter)

NHK

Hey, no that wasn't removed, I didn't add that to this one. Yeah it feels great to see this here. I wanted it as the sequel to "Cry of Karachi," My city has a lot more than its rain, its got the sea :- )

Thanks Chowk, for letting Karachi roll on the waves.

معرآج

Glad to see it here on FP as well.

BTW, did you submit the article as such without the poem, or was that removed?