Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity

OK I got it(from FP)

JUI in NWFP was not actually JUI but another organisation of the same name JUI which also supported the British and ML and creation of Pakistan just like the other JUI. But NWFP JUI was not extremist, like the third JUI which was extremist because it was allied to the Congress.

That all "three" JUIs(NWFP, breakaway Usmani and JUH) were all Deobandi is of course irrelevant to their extremism, it is only Congress Hindu support which made one of them extremist and the others secular/moderate(until the pro-Congress faction took them over after independence in 1949 or 1954, Mantolives is not sure).

Sadna you have no clue what you are discussing. You keep jumping and claiming something new and contradictory to your own earlier stance.

We were discussing exactly that ...when you claimed that jamiat e ulema supported the league from 1945-1947... And your lie was caught ...it turns out that jamiat e ulema was led by Azad at the time and had elected Azad to the constituent assembly in 1945-194f elections.

Just admit it. You took a risk and lied. Then you tried to claim that Cunningham spoke of JUI... Then it turned out that poor guy never mentioned JUI which wasn't even present in NWFP.

I think Sadna is mixed up with the names and acronyms.

JUH= become JUI only after the partition in Pakistan led by Mufti mehmood and Maulana Ghalum Ghose Hazarvi. The Party split in two and Hazarvi turned pro Ayub. Now the Party has a third group of Maulana Samiullah.

JUH(usmani group) a pro ML faction from the original JUH in pre-partition India

JUH usmani group= JUP in Pakistan after Usmani moved to Pakistan and this party was later led by Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani.

So the Governor might have encouraged the JUH(usmani group) but not the Mufti Group of the Maulana Madni and Azad faction. Mufti group hated ML.

Sadna

There was no JUI in NWFP before 1949. After 1949 the same Jamiat e ulema Hind changed its name to JUI and merged with Karachi-based usmani faction of JUI.

there was only one Jamiat e Ulema Hind that was supported by the Congres and was led by Azad.

League might have managed to break a few mullahs but there was no organized group as such called JUI which supported ML before partition in NWFP.

You are confusing the Jamiat e ulema with Jamiat e ulema islam which had no presence in NWFP.

Unless you understand the difference, your entire point is ignorant and worthless.


Muslim League couldn't possibly use a party whose president till 1947 was Azad and which elected him to the constituent assembly from NWFP.

HP
We are not arguing about support of Mufti Mehmood for Congress. Please read the recap I posted below. Its all yours now.

"While I see a nationalist motive behind Ipi's struggle, it was an insurgency which rallied people around the cry that Pakistan's govt was too irreligious to impose sharia."

Manto,
Even Ghaffar khan never demurred about the Sharia in NWFP.
You couldn't do politics without some reference to Sharia in NWFP at that time. In fact GK's lukewarm support to sharia often created problems for him. One reason he lost the referendum was also that the Maulvis from UP and the ML students from UP in NWFP started talking about Sharia and Islam in Hazara and DIK before the partition.

Mantolives
Now you are parsing vowels? Good luck with that.

Let me recap:
You began with saying that Congress and extremist Jamait e Ulema supported each other.

Then when it was pointed out that Jamiat e Ulema had a pro-Pakistan pro-ML faction, you dismissed them as "insignificant".

Then when it was pointed out that Jinnah had the Pakistan flag raised by that 'insignificant' JUI faction's leader Usmani and had his funeral prayers recited by him, you started saying pro-Congress JUI took over the pro-ML faction after independence.

When it was pointed out that Jamiat e Ulema had a pro-ML anti-Khidmatgar presence in NWFP since at least 1937 if not earlier, then you admitted there was a pro-ML JUI but the pro-Congress faction took it over in 1954.

Then when I asked for proof that the pro-League JUI was not extremist, you changed the year of takeover of pro-ML faction by pro-Congress faction from 1954 to 1949.

Now you are saying there was no pro-ML faction in NWFP ever and Cunningham never mentioned the JUI and if he did it was a different organisation.

Your sole argument boils down to this - only the Deobandi mullahs supporting the Congress were extremist hence were JUI, all other Deobandi mullahs supporting the British and Jinnah in NWFP were not extremist, hence cannot be JUI.

OK. majumdar might buy it, but Cunningham will have to be designated liar. Small sacrifice I think.

Sadna,
"You mean NWFP Governor Cunningham's diaries lie about paying off JUI in NWFP to start the NWFP Muslim League in 1937 and to support the British with anti-Congress pro-Pakistan propaganda during war years."

Did he pay them to start Muslim League in NWFP? In that case he is lying but if British supported JUI or JUH(one and the same thing)them financially to gain their political support then that is plausible.

I hope you understand the difference and rephrase your argument.
Mufti Mehmmod and his party which was former JUH never worked with ML before and after the partition. His son Maulana Fazal is a different beast.

In fact, there is a famous quote by Mufti Mehmood which goes like this: Hum Pakistan bananay kay gunnah main Shreek nahin thay". (we have nothing to do with the Sin of creation of Pakistan.)

1. George Cunningham's diaries don't talk of a JUI but the Jamiat e ulema meaning Jamiat e ulema hind and it talks of specific leaders who broke away. If you could show me where Cunningham uses "JUI" I will accept your view.

2. As I pointed out ...there was no JUI in NWFP till 1949 ... Shabbir Ahmed Usmani's breakaway faction was based in Karachi.


I still wonder how Jamiat e ulema whose president was Azad ...somehow pro-league.

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1. You mean NWFP Governor Cunningham's diaries lie about paying off JUI in NWFP to start the NWFP Muslim League in 1937 and to support the British with anti-Congress pro-Pakistan propaganda during war years.

2. Now you are moving the time when ML-supporting JUI went extremist to 1949 when Mufti joined it. Please provide the proof that ML supporting JUI was not extremist (and disappeared in 1949) and only Congress-supporting JUI was extremist.

#275 Posted by Alphalpha on October 8, 2008 9:03:02 am


Setting the record straight for whom?


For the jihadis....duh...

When the jihadis realize what they're doing is, like, gandhian..they'll be, like, ewwwwww...gandhi..ewww..

and they'll stop blowing things up...

so there's a plan...just because YOU aren't smart enough to understand it...

#239 Posted by sadna and post#247
“Yeah which JUH faction was that, apart from Mufti Mahmood? After being pro-British and pro-Muslim League till 1947, how did JUI suddenly become pro-Congress in the 1960s when it first became a political party?�
#247 Posted by sadna
“I showed that until 1947 JUI in NWFP was in the pay of the British governor helping him with pro-Pakistan pro-Muslim League and anti-Congress/Khidmatgar propaganda. Also that the Khidmatgars were not allowed into the tribal areas only British-paid mullahs were. Neither of you even acknowledged this or the fact that Khidmatgars were not responsible for the JUI in NWFP, the British and ML were.�

JUI or JUH on British payroll… though I doubt Sadna has any proof of that but Mullahs historically are more comfortable having some relations with the local admins. That protects them from the feudal of the area. To be more realistic, imo, British controlled many top leaders of both Congress and ML before the partition excluding Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah and handful of other leaders. Throughout the struggle for Independence, both Congress and Muslim Leagues were frustrated by these pro-British leaders within their own parties.

JUH, as Yasser has stated many times, was never pro-Muslim league or Pro-Pakistan before or after the partition. In NWFP they were known as Congressi Mullah. Sometime in the mid 40s ML was able to manipulate a breakaway section which was called JUH Usmani group and after the Partition they just switched name to JUP where P was for Pakistan. Later on Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorni Meerutwala was its leader and was able to defeat JI in Karachi and Hyderabad on many NA seats. In pre-partition India they were mostly from UP and never exercised any influence in other parts of India. later the JUP morphed in to MQM minus the mullahs.

Mufti Mehmood was the regional leader of JUI led by Hussain Madni and Maulana Azad. They were part of the Dr. Khan sahib government in NWFP before the partition. I am not sure at this time what role they played in referendum.

Mufti Mehmood on many occasions in Pakistani politics played a positive role and was always pro democracy but as the mullahs go, he was not beyond accepting some favors from the government too.
He showed remarkable solidarity with NAP when Bhutto dismissed the Balochistan government and Mufti resigned the Chief Minister post in NWFP. He could have held on to it with the Muslim League Qayoom and PPP Support.

The NAP had a sort of unannounced alliance with Mufti Mehmood in NWFP. NAP was toxic in Pakistan for two reasons: 1) Ghaffar Khan couldn’t shake off the Congressi label and 2) the party was pretty much leftwing in other parts of Pakistan. In Punjab for a long time Mehmood Ali Qasoori was the President and when he left Kaswar Garedezi of Multan took over. They were both controlled by the leftists and communists. Mehmood Ali Qasoori was the father of Khurshhed Qasoori, Musharraf’s Forieng minister. Professor Amin Mughal was the Gen. Secretary of the Party in Punjab and he was a communist.


Where I disagree with Yasser is his portrayal of Faqir Ipi. He fought British and was more a nationalist than a religious leader. Since Ghaffar Khan who dominated the NWFP politics was also anti British, they naturally became allies. (He probably provided funding to Ghaffer Khan, when GK started out in politics.)

British hated Faqir Ipi and tried to capture him many times but failed. I have very serious doubts about his followers supporting the Taliban now. Otoh, he left no political legacy in FATA because of the tribal rivalries and strong pro-Pakistan sentiments in FATA after the partition.

Btw I still don't get how Jinnah and British are responsible for a party whose President till 1947 was Azad and whose main representative to the constituent assembly was Azad from NWFP ...

There was only one Jamiat e ulema in NWFP till 1949 and it was led by Azad till partition. It was anti-muslim league and pro-congress.

This is a fact.

Sadna,

Tsk tsk...

Little knowledge is dangerous.
There was no JUI in NWFP till 1949 when the remnants of JUH joined up with Usmani's smaller faction of JUI which was based in Karachi. It this this faction that split in 1954.

The Jamiat e Ulema in the NWFP who were broken by the League were NOT called JUI. They were Jamiat e Ulema Hind leaders who defected from Jamiat e Ulema Hind. Jamiat e Ulema Hind remained an ally of the Congress...

So if you were to say that some ex-JUH mullahs were used by the League it would be true but your statement that JUI was used against the KK is just blatantly wrong.

You are restating the same lie in new inventive ways when you know that Maulana Azad was the President of Jamiat e Ulema and Jamiat e Ulema as a group was firmly allied to the Congress every where including the Frontier where Maulana Azad won a seat from Jamiat e Ulema seat.


So your repetitive control freakery with "used JUI" is a lie for the only Jamiat e Ulema was JUH and the Congress used the JUH against the Muslim League.

Yeah the world believes in many delusions..like the delusion that Pakistan is actually fighting against terrorists....not helping them. Well I guess that delusion is over.

this is the problem with people who need messiahs for their salvation....they project their incompetence and delusions on the rest of the world.