Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity

Tahir and Syeda

Isn't this an amazing thing? Gandhi served Muslims all his life and continues to serve them even in his death!

I have a humble suggestion. Some of us non-Muslims do know of Gandhi and his ideas. Do you think some Muslim societies might be open to any of Gandhi's ideas other than the brilliant one of using 'peaceful resistance' when you think 'non-peaceful resistance' isn't working?

You are losing faith too quickly. If you think logically, Gandhism is not a better way, definitely not for Islamic groups.

I recall pakistanis fevently arguing for Jinnah to be voted as the man of the millinium. Wonder what Jinnah birthday should be remembered for. It should be celebrated by islamic scholars for creating the TNT strain of islam, for integrating the islamic notion of kafir into a political ideology and interpreting that kafir concept of islam implies that muslims of india cannot live with the hindus.

India has to be divided.

Eklavya, Bacha Khan was a “Gandhi-Bhagt� (what-ever that is).

The difference between Gandhi and Jinnah was that Gandhi with all his hypocrisy and acting gave this world a “philosophy� (the philosophy of non-violence) while Jinnah unfortunately, “Pakistan�.

barrister bhai, I have a rule. I won't argue with anyone who takes the name of Badshah Khan. Just one comment. Badshah Khan has a meaning in any group that exists simply as humans, or even in any group of Afghans. He has no meaning in any large group of Muslims.

The poor man has suffered enough. Let him rest in peace. There is no point us (both Muslims and Hindus) insulting him any further.

Satyagraha and Islam............perhaps interpret "satyagraha" as Dawah......... I am sure the mullahs would find some value in it and turn gandhi into their icon......

#12345

Those who cant differentiate .Gandhism is not applicable to war between countries

but within country civil war .for rest read my ilog

Shah ji, you make an excellent argument. When people share enough for them to be able to arrive at common understanding, Gandhism may be the best way forward. Most often, that can happen within nations.

I am quite distressed, for instance, that liberal Pakistanis are bombing and killing Taliban etc. The two are not that different, and share a brotherhood. If they sit down and with some give and take once again arrived at a joint approach the problems can be resolved much quicker and better.

In India too violence, IMO, is not the answer. Violence for Indians merely indicates failure.

Re: # 7

Thank you .See the violence within is counter productive .If the state is ruptured what are you end up with unlikeble result either way.

Of course give and take is peacefull diplomatic way and encouraged .

There is no fan of gandhi in monolithic single ideology state like China .World peace is lofty more need is for peacefull existence intra nation .

Re: # 1 Ekal

"I have a humble suggestion. Some of us non-Muslims do know of Gandhi and his ideas. Do you think some Muslim societies might be open to any of Gandhi's ideas other than the brilliant one of using 'peaceful resistance' when you think 'non-peaceful resistance' isn't working?

You are losing faith too quickly. If you think logically, Gandhism is not a better way, definitely not for Islamic groups...."

That is complete opposite of Islam. It is like adopting Buddhism or Chriatianity- if somebody adopts violence against you, stick to your non-violence. Islam preaches the opposite-you start violence first...with so much reward ( in heaven) for killing infidels....

Will return to the board in greater details later. Suffice it to say that Gandhi's ideals are alive and kicking in FATA at least (also to lesser and more sporadic extents in Gujarat, Kandhmal etc.) For instance,

Ram Rajya= Rule of God= Hukumar-e-Ilahi
Satyagraha= Struggle for Truth= Jihad

Regards

For those who seek to implement Gandhian ideals, my lawyer has dug out some interesting facts, old time chowkies may have already read this:

On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure. We saw
Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review
of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He
was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should
not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that
was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for which we were
perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable
quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we
were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native
prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing
of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of
our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any
unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were
given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the
horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and
partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree
removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves
in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that we
were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but
not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with
the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too
much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive
resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was
intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a
welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their
conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a
separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we
would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to
hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian
prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the
place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them
were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These
prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the
chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate
room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the
same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a
secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may
entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that
there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life.
Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for
doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very
difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and
most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians,
whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to
the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant
that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and
pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal
races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children

Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg
359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political
power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South
Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those
that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold
landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330

On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"

...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the
British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there
is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the
purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG
Vol. 4, pg 89


On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for
dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of
course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from
the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess
I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed
bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it
is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is
working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess
unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste
can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste.
Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a
representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing
persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste.
With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to
raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in
Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature.
The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace
while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of
answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food
must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love
because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so
orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they
drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system
cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or
intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment.
Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his
enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and
intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means
that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the
soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To
change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot
call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is
to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been
given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility
of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently
those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of
advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all
those who are out to destroy the caste system.

Majumdar bhai, just when you thought you were changing the world's opinion by revealing Gandhi's "true colors", here comes a blow. Even Pakistanis are advocating Gandhian ideals. Now where will you and your lawyer hide? (sad wala icon)

Harishbhai,

Even Pakistanis are advocating Gandhian ideals.

This is not a new development. Mr. Baitullah Mehsud and company have been advocating Gandhian ideals for quite some time.

Regards

#13 by majumdar

Mr. Baitullah Mehsud and company have been advocating Gandhian ideals for quite some time.

Aww Majumdar bhai, but those were the illiterate and unwashed Abduls. Now you have educated and English-speaking Pakistanis do it. You (and your lawyer) must do something about it. Maybe cut and paste some 10,000 word excerpts (from books by obscure authors) about Gandhi's perverted ways and fetishes. May be then some of those misguided souls would revert?

Re: # 10
Majumder...

"...Satyagraha= Struggle for Truth= Jihad..."

Nobody is perfect.
I am nobody.
So, I am perfect... :-)

Nkg moshai,

You are certainly not nobody and hence far from perfect.

Regards