Through Bloodshed and Tears

Jang...
I have seen one of my college professors (in Civil Engineering Department). He had compltede his PhD in Univ of Wisconcin (in early 60s). While in Department, he used to be dressed as pure professor and hardly used to interact with students in Bengali. While at home, he used to be pure Bong Brahmin ( white dhoti...morning puja etc...)...

laddu bhai, understandably we both individually and collectively are hurt as much as anyone else is when our specific religious practices and beliefs are ridiculed. So I apologize if I gave any other impression.

But you know perfectly well the kind of society we will end up with if we among ourselves began to take away our own freedom to criticize (even ridicule) our own beliefs. To be able to openly disagree with others and to dismiss others' beliefs is fundamental to who we were, are, and want to be.

But one understand the context in which your concern arose. We are all trying to struggle with the same dilemma - trying to find the right balance that doesn't change us fundamentally while still protects all that is important to us.

Don't lose patience, laddu bhai. I have a feeling we will find a way - a good balance.

My sentiments were echoed by other practicing hindus are well - this is from TOI

R.K.Bagchi, Hyderabad, says: Only cawards attack Hinhuism, since they are sure of no reprisals...A Crowning Cawardice Mr Karunanidhi ?
[6 Nov, 2008 2008hrs IST]

Sumesh, India, says: If he has guts, mention the same to Muslims to remove beard, cap, wearing burkha. I would love to hear that and see the consequences too.
[6 Nov, 2008 2007hrs IST]

Swami, Chennai, says: Will Mr. MK ask the muslims the rational behind wearing the cap in their head and will he explain why he and his party leaders wear the cap during Ramzan parties?
[6 Nov, 2008 1956hrs IST]

GCLODHA, MUMBAI, says: Please ask C.M. of Tamilnadu that his relegious demands applicable to other relegion's followers.
[6 Nov, 2008 1955hrs IST]

Re: # 25

kaal ji,

I was putting karunanidhi's remark in a different context and then evaluating whether he would have dared to make this remark..........

it is like someone asking muslims not to circumcise themselves and carry the mark of covenant with their Allah on their bodies.

laddu

What nonsense is that! Please cool down. Our history is full of great men who criticized tilak and janeyu (and everything else). Why should anyne 'take their head off'?!

This taking head off appraoch is totally contradictory to the ego-less philosophy you youself believe in, laddu. Let's not even think along those lines because that would be completely unIndian.

I bet if DMK goon like Karunanidhi were to make a remark regarding 5 K-s like he did regarding tilak and janeyu then his head would have been immediately off!

Actually, these gundas pick on easy targets , because Hindus are the most tolerate when it comes to their religious practices.

Actually some Sikh should have come forward and volunteered to take off the head of that karunanidhi goon.

Re: # 14

"...You should stop wearing the janeu or tilak when you go to work for your MNC if you want to move with the modern times..."

Jang ji,

You cannot have double standards with respect to religious practices an symbols of non-sikhs.

If sikhs should be allowed to wear 5 k-s then every hindu has a right to his tilak and janaeyu.

There is no way you can justify 84 riot.
I can recall some events in South Bengal. People looted Gurudwara money in West Bengal for the sake of looting. Those were CPI(M) supported goons, who enjoyed the killing of Congress leader from the money they have looted from Gurudwara....double whammy...it was just simple loss of human sanse....

Re: # 14
Jang...
You know, my room mate was Brahmin and often used his janeu to support mosquito net...this sacret thread has no meaning today...
Today, if you are Professor at a University, you are real Upadhyay brahmin, not the Bihari/UP Upadhyay-ji ( last name), who is cleaning public toilets of Delhi/Mumbai....


I am not against the 5Ks of Sikhs. But, if you are in such a situation that people misunderstand your dress/symbols, it is better avoid it...in Jasmin Deshe Jadachara ( while in Rome do as Romans do)...

Re: # 13
delhi...
you need not believe existing caste system in present context......

some of the useless rituals we bongs ( may be others also follow) during marriage that if you go deep into it, you will feel very ashamed; but then it is kept for ritualistic purpose....no real intention...

#18 Posted by majumdar on November
No doubt good point.

You are right, they are Brahmins (though Mehtas can be both Brahmin and Baniya, so I am not sure about Mehtas of Torrent).

But as you will see I am trying to generalize millions of people:-). And in that case generalization should be close to overall/general truth.

If you collect random samples of Brahmins of say 1000 familes each from different parts of India, you will see that in many cases if they owned land sometime back, they have lost it (and they never utilized it properly), those who owned small businesses have lost businesses, and most of them are relying on jobs, government or whatever, teaching etc. You can say that it is true for all middle class people in India, but you can see the difference in numbers if you check how Kshtriyas and Vaishya community either utilized land better or kept their businesses going in more cases. And Sikhs and Punjabis have done extremly well in agriculture and business respectively.

The difference in attitude is there, even though you can find significant numbers of individuals who are exceptions. There is an attitudinal difference caste/sect and even region wise, which comes out of particular sub-culture or group-psychology.

I think that in case of humans hardware is never that different in a given period (say, 100 years), it is software that creates major/minor differences.

What is so good with Gujaratis, that they own so many motels in USA? What is so good in telgus that they end up in USA even if they graduated from some xyz college (while north-indian are less capable of landing in USA even if they are frombetter college); I am not saying coming to USA is an achievement, but again it is the difference/degree that is important here.


Everything is made up of energy, but things are different depending upon how this energy is constrained to create different particles, atoms, molecules, substances:-) (This was just to ensure that I look a complete idiot as my above lengthy discussion may not have proved that:-))

Pinku,

But because they are not that capable of generating wealth, Brahmins

What caste are the founders of Infosys, what caste are Iyengars of the TVS group or the Mehtas of Torrent, if I may ask?

Regards

Ke ho gayo bhai...?

Sikhs are an excellent sect. They are extremely courageous much more than most others, they don't go by status and can adopt any profession with equal sincerity and diligence. Only thing that has become slightly bad with them is that they started taking religion a bit seriously. Which is always wrong (religion is almost always good for nothing).

I can compare Sikhs with Brahmins, Brahmins are very few in number, very few of them are rich, most of them are poor or middle class, but their intellectual presence is immense, more than any other sect. But because they are not that capable of generating wealth, Brahmins as a community remain poor and they can not raise the living standard of their community because of lack of money (but they can and they always become good teachers, good intelectuals and so on, but that doesn't bring lot of money money, nor it produces lot of products??)

On the other hand, Sikhs go equally for all professions, they can excel in anything and are capable of generating wealth out of their hard work. So they can always raise living standard of their community.

This is how psychology of a Brahmin (even if an idiot) and a Sikh (even if subdued) differ. But both are good for society, if they live together. They are complimentary. But as no caste is needed, no religion is needed, in future the good qualities should merge. We don't need Brahmins as a sect who are either dumb or pursue intellect/art in a crazy way, even if they are poor. Be Budhdhist there, like Chinese, some individuals will behave like Brahmins and that will be goood enough. Let individuals be free to pursue their ideas, skills individually and not as per caste/sect.

What Indians need to do is: to merge their castes harmonioulsy, a Brahmin should marry a so called low caste... so a normal psychology can quickly generate... a son of a Brahmin and Shudra will neither be over-confident nor be too-diffident just because of his caste:-)

hmmm will have to create an ilog out of this, the easiest way to create an ilog

cool al, DMK goons have taken over madras and ltte has taken over jaffna. shit happens.

Sorry to be so blunt and I also ask this with the utmost respect.

Why did the Sikh Community allow Bindranwale to occupy the Akal Takth and use the Harmandir Sahib's premises to store 50 caliber machine guns, AK-47s, explosives etc.?

Was it not a foregone conclusion as to what would happen? Regardless of the politics played by Indira Gandhi in promoting Bindranwale?

How can the Sikh community scream about the sanctity of the golden temple being desecrated by the Indian Army when they themselves allowed it to be desecrated without as much as a protest by Bindranwale?

I don't remember now but the raid was into the temple was lead by sikh soldiers of the Indian Army was it not? Also, Bindranwale was given adequate time to vacate the premises. The raid did not happen without warning.

I find it hard to believe that Sikhs were ever discriminated against in India. In fact, compared to other states they were the most pampered community. Punjab and its people were looked at with awe in South India. Their culture and food were accepted as something to aspire to for the rest of the country. Bollywood was in love with Punjabi culture. How can anyone believe that Sikhs were discriminated against?

I think it was a superiority complex that allowed sikhs to be manipulated by Pakis to create trouble in India. The fact is a section of the population allowed themselves to be manipulated into terrorism. Eventually the sikhs themselves solved the problem led by KPS Gill. But I still hear all this anguish from one section of the people. I find that a pity.

Please someone put this into perspective for me. I am just a dumb South Indian trying to understand a part of history I saw unfold on TV.

NKG sikhs SHOULD wear 5 Ks. otherwise they are not sikhs. its modern world that needs be more tolerant of sikh dress-code, not the other way around. 5K are simple tokens, do not offend or discriminate. You should stop wearing the janeu or tilak when you go to work for your MNC if you want to move with the modern times. if the modern world is tolerant of the hippies and low-waist jeans on fat buttocks, it better be comfortable with the sikh attire.

the day sikhs cease to be sikhs will be a huge loss to the religious diversity of this planet.

God punished Sikhs for not being Sikhs.
If Sikhs could follow the path of Khalsa there would not be any issues but present day Sikhs are trying to immitate the West and others to let go of their own past.

Dasam Guru also faced similar situations but he organized against all odds. There is no caste in Sikhism yet the comparisons are made based on castes by people. Why?

If you notice most of the time caste is brought out it is by those who have let go of Sikhism not by practising Sikhs.

I am so fortunate that I am dont believe in caste and I have mixed heritage.

nkg, this has not been an area of my study, so I don't wish to say more than I should.

I just believe that while Guru Nanak was a great Guru and remains an eternal presence with Sikhs (as with Hindus), Sikhism itself is about ALL Gurus, most importantly about the present Guru - Guru Granth Sahib.

Furthermore, while there is prejudice, it calls for better education of those who are prejudiced. 5Ks themselves don't hurt anyone individually nor do they come in the way of any discourse socially. They are a mark of discipline, at worst a bit of inconvenience for some themselves.

Re: # 10
Kaal....
"Please don't confuse 5ks with religious flaunting. Those are the requirements of the religion itself, not optional items (even if many Sikhs do not wear them all for many reasons)...."

These 5 Ks were introduced under certain circumstances ( not in the original concept envisioned by Guru Nanak). That has changed. So, why to continue.
Have you checked it why is it essential to maintain 5 ks and if you don't maintain, what you loose? When the US people, with their limited knowledge of Asians, attack Sikhs, can you blame them 100%? Not that way....

"...And nobody should forget anything (except Hindus who are past masters in the field of forgetting). A wiser option many be to remember, yet to move on..."

With excisting police and legal setup in India, it is not possible to punish the guilty. This is reality....

nkg,

Please don't confuse 5ks with religious flaunting. Those are the requirements of the religion itself, not optional items (even if many Sikhs do not wear them all for many reasons).

And nobody should forget anything (except Hindus who are past masters in the field of forgetting). A wiser option many be to remember, yet to move on.

Sidra...
5 Ks were not introduced during the time of Nanak...

To Sikhs of this forum....
There are lot of positives about Sikhs. They are the only people who loves jokes about themselves....
Couple of points they should remember....
You need to change with time and place. If you stick to the time of Mughals (5 Ks were adopted to handle Mughal/Islamic barbarism), you end up nowhere. Today Sikhs are being targetted due to the strange attire, they try to stick to without trying to understand the circumstance. If you are in India, proudly flaunt your 5 Ks. But why to do the same in USA or Europe?
And please try to forget the past ( 1984 Riots). In India, riot victims never gets justice, because you can not punish mob....

the worst are the bhapas who after suffering make statements that anti sikh acts are exaggerated.....

ehna di dari putt kay ehna they chitraan ch they deo

Politics made it a water issue......there was no water issue...in punjab, you could find water 40 feet below ground when this happened...

CRPF openly boasted how they were under orders to create terrorists by torturing youth in Punjab....so the kanjree would win the elections in divided land....

Sodhi....aren't Sodhis the ones who took the original "bir" of the gurus and mocked Guru Gobind Singh?

Here is something about Sikhs and Muslims of Kashmir, from not so recent history of Sikhism, the gift that Islam gave them from the very begining and the reason why Sikhism originated.., plus a little about many Brahmins who may now be living as fanatical muslims in Kashmir...


[[
There were a great many rebellions during Aurangzebs's reign, including those by the Rajput states of Marwar and Mewar, and the Sikhs. Things came to such a head that Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth Guru (Spiritual Pontiff) of Sikhism, was executed by Aurangzeb for standing up against the forcible conversion of Kashmiri Hindu Brahmins and refusing to convert to Islam. Aurangzeb had demanded that all Kashmiri Brahmins convert to Islam. The Kashmiris then asked for assistance from the Sikh Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur was proclaimed their Guru, and he advised Aurangzeb that if Tegh Bahadhur could be converted to Islam, then the Brahmins would convert to Islam. Tegh Bahadhur was then executed after his refusal to convert. This day, November 11 is still commemorated by the Sikh community. The son of Guru Tegh Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh, the 10th Guru of Sikhism, led an open revolt against Aurangzeb's forces. It is thought that a letter to Aurangzeb by Guru Gobind Singh (The Zafarnama) contributed to the death of the aged Emperor. The letter highlighted all the atrocties that the Emperor had committed. He is said to have had extreme remorse after reading it, and soon ceased many of his hostilities towards his non-Muslim subjects, especially before his death.
]]


This is not just to offset any negative campaign by muslims against Hindu/Sikhs but also to remind Kashmiries, Hindus and Sikhs what their ancestors have gone through... FOrgiving is perfect but don't forget...

I sympathise with the Sikh community in toto. The sorry state of affairs in Punjab could have been avoided but for the thoughtless machinations of ruling (Anti)National Congress.
The track record of Congress Party:
1948: Nehru was requested by the Army top brass to give them one more week and they would bring the entire J&K under Indian control. Nehru developed cold feet and ran to UN leaving part of the state in Pakistan's control. Had we taken Gilgit we could have been at a distance of shaking hands with the USSR and with a friendly regime in Afghanistan we could have had a direct surface link to USSR.Today Pakistan is playing the dog in the manger as far as India's desire to get access to Central Asian countries
1962: Nehru failed diplomatically to counter China and did not foresee the Chinese aggression. As a result, India was humiliated on the battlefield for no fault of the jawans and lost several chunks of territory to the Commie neighbour. On top of it all he had the temerity to justify the loss of our soverign territory by saying that not a blade of grass grew in Aksai Chin which the Chiks captured. Strange coming from a Prime Minister
1984: Indira Gandhi messed up the Punjab issue, Op Blue Star, consequent alienation of the Sikhs, which eventually took her life
1987: Rajiv Gandhi embarked on the ill-advised operation against the LTTE in Sri Lanka. Prem Dass was laughing all the way to Candy while the Indians were doing his dirty work. Indian Army lost 1800 men and in return we got nothing. This episode ended in rajiv losing his life.

1989: Again Rajiv meddled in the elections in J&K which led to unrest and subsequently militancy from which the nation has not yet been able to recover. Prior to 1989 J&K was a real heaven, the local Kashmiris although resentful of Indian rule, were peaceful . Post 1989 everyone has suffered the Kashmiri Pandits, Muslims and the Nation on the whole.

God save us from Congress Party

The only bright spot in its long history was the Indo-Pak war of 1971 which saw the dismemberemnt of Pakistan

It's a sad story of both the Sodhi family and the Sikh community. But Sikhs are a brave people, they don't forget but they do forgive and move on. This is what most of them have done.

The author seems to be quite ignorant about the sikh faith. "Keskara" does not mean turban but in fact combines two Ks, Kesh (unshorn hair) and Kara (steel bracelet). Turban is not part of the 5Ks.

"..It was called an 'Encounter' when the police shot a Sikh just for being a Sikh...."

This is the most stupid recount of what happened in Punjab twenty years back.

This momeen has no idea what happened and that is why they would never succeed their Jehad or inciting Sikhs for a Khaali-sthaan.

The TNT-mongers from Pakistan would never succeed in their Global-TNT or communalization of the Indian nation.

The guards she trusted to protect her avenged the anger and loss the Sikh community was feeling. They killed her while she was walking with them on a cemented pathway. The rows of trees on either side of them were the only witnesses to the vengeance. But following that, the nation witnessed the mass murder of thousands of Sikhs by the people of India.

i do not know how you can blame the entire "people of India" for the inhuman acts of a few sadists. It is akin to saying all Americans are responsible for the anti-Arab backlash post 9/11. Intentionally or otherwise, you have exposed your own bias.

The incidents of 1984 and our continued failure to punish the culprits would forever be a blot on India. And it is much to the big heartedness of this community that the rest of India has been to a large extent forgiven by them.

Btw, it is not true that most Sikhs have moved away from Punjab or India. There are more Sikhs in India than anywhere and they are doing reasonably well. Many have emigrated but for most it was for economic reasons (perfectly legit)

Regards