The Psyche of Al-Qaeda

“It is only "bogus" if you have no clue about the historical development of capitalism and the current World System… The taliban operate not outside that system but within it.�

That is no answer to the question. Why Taliban operated within the system and Lenin and Bolsheviks did not? I am sure I have no clue but let see how much clue is there about Lenin and the Bolsheviks. It would be interesting to read the Historical development of the Bolsheviks outside the capitalist system.I am eager to learn. Let us have it!

C. Wright Mills got something right and called 'crackpot realists', abdicating their responsibility as critical intellectuals.

Masadi Sahib, Good to have you back. I think we were banned together. Now back to the topic. Unlike a recent grad still living in his collection of 4 books and 3 photocopied articles from Journal of American Sociology, I have graduated to reading the New York Times, the Atlantic monthly, the World Press Review, Penthouse, the New Yorker, and Timeout. Talk to me when you have grown up and you don’t feel a need to rub your Critical Theory in everyone’s face. I can also throw General Theory in you face. Talking of which, the last time I held a text book or read a theory was some 2 decades ago, so kill me for misspelling Mead (which was a typo by the way). At least I got Radcliffe-Brown right. I am very pleased with myself.

Mr. Asad: and the taliban dont fit the caricature??? and am i wrong in saying that their "islam" is a result of their primitive tribal society of fata??

Tahmed writes "Mr Asad #148 So, the taliban "Islam" has been corrupted by capitalism and industrial society in Afghanistan?"

Don't try to pervert what I write. The taliban's "Islam" is the caricature of Islam conceived in the minds of the West long time back that has been personified objectively due to circumstances of their creation. If you cannot understand this, go back to school and take HP with you, you both need it.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Kaal writes "In a sentence, oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem, Islam - correct understood and applied - is the solution."

No you idiot do not invent straw men or put words in my mouth. There is no application of Islam, Islam is not about application but self discovery using the bare minimum of required tools. It is not a religion as the traditional religions.

Have a nice day and go to hell,

TNI Masadi

Mr Kulharee, Marx was not a "functionalist", his theories are associated with the conflict perspective. And if you've read Mead as much as you claim, at least spell him correctly.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

HP writes "Yeah it is borrowed. I am not Marx, what he wrote is in quotes. These quotes are available on multiple web sites so there is no need for any reference. Mostly it was Marx works quoted as his and not mine.."

It was not about Marx's quotes but the comments at the end were borrowed verbatim as well, with no acknowledgment. That would pass as plagiarism according to any criteria

Then he writes "Anyway, what is that you are arguing now? Marx is not the last word on religion..."

That is what I wrote, you merely rephrase it and attack me with my own post! Good going.

Then he writes "our argument with Tahmed that the Taliban are within the overall capitalist control is bogus..."

It is only "bogus" if you have no clue about the historical development of capitalism and the current World System. The taliban operate not outside that system but within it. They are segmented much like the ghetto is separated from mainstream USA but that does not mean they are immune from or are not the product of, the current world order. Most of what you write is "bogus" and it is quite clear you don't have a clue about Marx from your post....

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

testing

Mr Asad #148 So, the taliban "Islam" has been corrupted by capitalism and industrial society in Afghanistan? It has nothing to do with the primitive tribal society of fata? And the taliban are merely hippies trying to form a commune?

The only thing that your post implies that is not pure comedy is the fact that taliban stink and grow let their hair grow like hippies.

Re # 146 - Masadi Sahib, I apologize for misspelling Weber. I am not a big fan of structural functionalism, and my area in college was Industrial sociology (market socialism and industrial democracy) with heavy duty Radcliffe-Brown and Meade. You know your Marx, good for you. I am just a little low level idiot with poor spellings. If all you have to brag about is the written quality (and not the intellectual worth) of your writings, then what can I say? It wont hurt for you to be polite and respectful to fellow Chowkies.

PS. Kulharee was axed as well, and I hope it was due to his poor spellings.

anil ji, I am trying to understand masadi's basic argument here. It seems to be (and masadi may please correct us):

The elites/the powerful use many tools to mislead, control, and exploit the masses, religion - even Islam - being one of those tools.

Marx's ideas offer, as Islam did much before Marx, a way of individual liberation, dignity, and ultimately progress without man exploiting man.

So the challenge is to apply Islam (or even Marxist ideas) accurately, without letting it itself turn into a handmaiden of elitist power. One can do that by systematically and scientifically understanding it, individually, and not letting the state or the mullah run with it, or define it. Most states today and Mullahs themselves are fully controlled agents of higher-level anti-people and anti-liberation forces such as the United States elite. So the state does not support and the Mullahs do not preach, the correct understanding of Islam, because were the latter achieved, it would create powerful forces for human liberation and human prgoress that the state and the Mullahs so fear.

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Masadi's arguments are very compelling. In different combinations, they reflect the beliefs and concerns of most Muslims. Masadi's signal contribution is the most clear, almost formalized proactive role of the US elite in all his formulations, much beyond the vague idea of the US administration as the source of inequities around the world as so many others have.

In a sentence, oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem, Islam - correct understood and applied - is the solution.

Asadi,
Yeah it is borrowed. I am not Marx, what he wrote is in quotes. These quotes are available on multiple web sites so there is no need for any reference. Mostly it was Marx works quoted as his and not mine.

Anyway, what is that you are arguing now? Marx is not the last word on religion. Some of his ideas are now over 150 years old so not everything is accurate anymore. I don't even think that his theories on capitalism are 100% relevant anymore. Even the mode of production as defined by Marx requires some rethinking.

Marx emphasis is not on religion per se but how it is used. Now any society whether it is capitalist or socialist, can be guilty of the same crimes. Since Marx only knew of Capitalism and the societies before capitalism, he had to draw on that but imo, had he been alive during the Soviet era, he would have written another 20,000 + pages on the evils of Soviet style socialism which was nowhere near what Marx preached and aspired for the proletariat to accomplish.

Currently, Marx strength is not in what he wrote but in the ideas he provided to build movements around. The other area he is helpful is to understand the interplay between the different forces and how their historical roles impact and develop a given situation based on the conflict of interests. Basically, his work on dialectics is more important than what he wrote on religion. The context of religion in the current conflict is different than what he was even aware of.

It is a different issue but in some cases religion does provide a voice to the oppressed folks. The lack of intellectual basis quickly turns religion backed movements in to anarchic, chaotic, and somewhat hateful. It may or may not be any religion’s fault but the tools get the flack when you invoke ideology.

In Myanmar, the Buddhists are playing a positive role but how quickly would that turn in to yet another attempt to create a new dictatorial regime is uncertain. The religion in the hands of Taliban and other extremist groups has nothing progressive about it and at this time it sure is being used for narcotic effects but not by the ruling classes. So saying that only ruling classes or the capitalists are capable of turning religion in to opiate of the masses is not entire accurate.

Your argument with Tahmed that the Taliban are within the overall capitalist control is bogus. Even Lenin was in overall capitalist control when he initiated the coup against the Czar and his ruling partners.
Knowing you, I close this debate from my side.

Anil,
I don’t think Marx made the distinction between “institutional or non institutional religions� Marx’s knowledge about India and Hindu philosophies were extremely limited so he used the model he was familiar with. Most of what Marx wrote about India was garbage. In some instances he was firmly behind the Brits in the way Indian natives and savages were treated by the British and the East India Company.

Re: # 150

"He talks about them separately in dialectical materialism."

"He" is for Marx.

Kaal:

According to my reading of HP Sahib's post on Marx on religion. The consciousness that Marx talks is individual (self consciousness), and not societal doctrine of order. He talks about them separately in dialectical materialism. The passage quoted by HP sahib mentions (my paraphrasing) that institutional religions are completely "inverted". This includes, Islam also (Masadi sahib or no Masadi sahib). For societal rules Marxist theories are well defined, implemented in at least two failed societies. Masadi is a good example of religion being an "opiate".

masadi, point noted. (1) All religions can be used to create a false consciousness. Hence, (2) all religions can be misused by people.

Having said that, IF Islam was correctly understood, and rationally and scientifically applied, then Islam would create a society that would address all of Marx's concerns, and go beyond

I would appreciate if you could share whether you agree or not. And if you disagree, please let us know why? Thanks.

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib who has been banned.

Tahmed writes " So religion in the pre-capitalist society of the taliban is not a means to an end then?"

The taliban society is not "pre capitalist", it operates within a global capitalist structure. Before the capitalist world system came to the fore, religion with its material basis would be, according to Marxist analysis more in tune with the natural, and thus less alienating and less false consciousness producing~ therefore the desire to maintain the industrial apparatus but return to an earlier commune form of existence, as also the claim in the Communist Manifesto that capitalism "profanes all that is sacred".

Have a nice day and keep it real,
TNI Masadi

Regards