The Psyche of Al-Qaeda

#80 Posted by KaalChakra,

Please note that I have not advocated tolerance of coercion.

thanks pinku bhai.

The advantage of listening to what khurram and drsohail have to say is that both have very well developed, very well thought-out perspectives of their own, quite different from yours (with which I have no problem).

So listening to their discussion is very instructive for all of us. I am hoping they will continue to clarify their positions, to the benefit of us all, just as you should and will share your own equally interesting perspective. Cheers.

#80 Posted by KaalChakra on

Unfortunately, I am the troll on duty..
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Does tolerance necessitate accepting the equal validity of intolerance? Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?
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Part-1

Kaal, as i said earlier you need "mind" to decide these things? And mind works only on "reason" and reason works only on "truths"..

If anybody really want to understand what you asked, it has to fit in the framework of this truth-value system.

Part-2
The second part of the puzzle is that truths are truths, they are big or small as per your objective or how they help in it. Otherwise they are just truths (infinite but each so difficult to find and define). The only grand objective we can set for whole humanity is "searching, living and enjoying truths" and keeping that environment alive.

Part-3
Answer to your question is..

The intolerance of intolerance of "truth" can be considered as tolerance if it helps in objective defined in part-2.
If you define some absurd objectve in part-2 then you can use any combination of "tolernace" and "intolerance" to create your statement and consider it to be ok.



I know people won't like my constant interruption, but then I am not generally that tolerant..

This is indeed turning out to be a great discussion between drshohai and khurram bhai.

Does tolerance necessitate accepting the equal validity of intolerance? Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?

Would love to hear if drsohail agrees that he dehumanizes people and stereotypes them.

#78 Posted by pinku on
And for truths there is no such question as "whether they are equal or not"

#77 Posted by khurram on
Dear Khuraam and Sohail

sorry for disturbing you for a while, but don't fight with me if you know my self-serving rights

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To say that all beliefs are equally valid is ALSO a belief. You are being self-contradictory when you privilege it over and above the belief that all beliefs are NOT equally valid.
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Talking about beliefs and handling them as truths is quite meaningless and tend to be stupid. If you guys are going in this direction, you can remain in your big or small circle (depending upon how much you discuss) without understanding anything significant.

Talk in terms of truths, if it seems too difficult to understand what is truth or when something is truth than think about that.

A belief can be anything, true/false, benign/malign, extraordinarily dangerous, amazingly ridiculous or whatever. So talking about their equallity or inequality means nothing. You have to find truths in those beliefs to compare them. There are infinite truths in this world, with infinite contexts, but none can invalidate other. But this is true only for something which is as good as truth, not for "beliefs".

So extract your truths out of your beliefs and compare them to analyze if they are equal, or which one is better. They may have different set of truths, some truths may not affect us at all. For example if a belief says "water molecule is made up of 10 quarks and not H2O, while stating quark correctkly" it is in conflict with a truth but the conflict doesn't seem that bad.

Technically, it is better to let people defend some ideas (if they want to) and give them full freedom to give arguments if they feel they can.

The biggest problem with religions is "talking God", because here going by the definition of God, you are not left in a position to do anything if the fake talking God says something bad. And the first thing to be given for defense is "do you think your book has word of God and it is God who said all those tings"?

If you are not talking about religions than "belief" mean nothing. I believe is as good as saying, i think so do you think I am wrong, give me reason?

That is where you should start.

Anyway, you guys are more aware so you know what to discuss, much better then me!

RE: #75drsohail,

You are confusing respecting other people's RIGHT to hold and practice a belief with considering other people's belief as equally valid. Catholics may consider other people's beliefs to be wrong. But they will not interfere with their right to hold and practice their beliefs.
If Catholics consider homosexuality as sinful, then they are not engaging in coercion. Anyone who disagrees with them is free to leave and practice his beliefs.

To say that all beliefs are equally valid is ALSO a belief. You are being self-contradictory when you privilege it over and above the belief that all beliefs are NOT equally valid.

What I find disturbing is your intolerance for those people who disagree with YOUR truth (i.e. all truths are equally valid). In article after article you have tried to link those who disagree with this truth to all the violence and evil in this world. You dehumanize them by calling them 'tribals' and paint them as barbaric. This includes billions of people who may disagree with others but have no interest in coercion.

Masadi is right when he condemns you for 'stereotypical condemnation of groups' .

#75 Posted by drsohail on
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ps...i hope kalchakra and pinku are happy to read our dialogue.
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I hope you are happy reading mine and I will be happy till you don't give up reason and don't give in to religion...

tools to explore truths may be many, but your (or mine, or individual's) mind is the only tool to understand truth and reason is the only language, to help you or me (our mind) do it

rest is fine as weather is..

Re: # 73
dear khurram...let me add one more thing from a social perspective.
in my opinion in every culture there is a wide range of traditions. i see them on a spectrum...

from humanistic on the left.....to liberal in the middle...to fundamentalistic on the right
we can see that range in religious as well as political spheres.
since i live in canada, i will give you canadian examples
in the christian world

unitarian church is most humanistic and welcomes people's nontraditional ideas and lifestyles and does not use any coercion to change people

united church is in the middle and quite liberal

catholic church is on the right and fundamentalistic. for example they consider divorce as sin. i have catholic friends who were ex-communicated when they divorced their abusive spouses. one of my patients who was catholic suffered from depression. finally he committed suicide. his family was shunned by church and the priest refused to offer his funeral services.

similarly in the political arena we have three parties

NDP...a socialist party is most humanistic and welcome people who are free thinkers and fight for the rights of disabled and underprivileged

Liberal party is in the middle

Conservatives are the right wing who do not accept gay marriages and are less sympathetic to homeless people, single mothers and other underprivileged groups

Luckily canadian constitution is secular and humanistic so fundamentalist religious and political groups can not use their force of coercion.

one other criterion is the respect for human rights....some countries like canada and norway and newzealand have international ratings of 80s and 90s while most muslim countries like saudi arabia have in their 20s and 30s.

these are just my opinions. you are more than welcome to disagree. sincerely sohail
ps...i hope kalchakra and pinku are happy to read our dialogue.

#68 Prof Masadi: So, it is the General Petraeus and other US officials who have prevented the residents of Lal Kurti, Rawalpindi and Gowalmandi, Lahore from advancing science and registering patents. Hmmmmmm...I see.

er...sorry..but if you provided this data in Lal Kurti, you would hear a yell of "pagal-ee-oye" to announce your presence whereever you went.

PS: btw, learned professor, despite over a half century of strong US military presence in Japan, that nation is the world leader in robotics and green technologies. What does that do to your Human Reproduction Theory of Economic Development.

PPS: I eagerly await the time series data I requested to back your Theory of Lynching as a Tool of Capitalism, and also evidence to support your Theory that the Reverend Wright is Right.

Re: #63, drsohail,

Let me try to understand your position.

a) There are multiple truths
b) ALL truths must be respected as equally valid
c) Any attempt to privilege ONE truth over all others leads to coercion.

Does this correctly state your position? Please make any corrections, if necessary.

(btw, that was a cheap shot against the Pope. The pope has no army. People follow him voluntarily and can leave him if they don't want to follow him anymore.)

nice article..

Have a nice day and keep the chai warm, is the offer still open? Do you serve crumpets or muffins? Gulab jaman's or pound cake?


TNI Masadi

sohail writes "But when humans start believing that their TRUTH is THE TRUTH and not A TRUTH, then they have a tendency to impose it on others.....When ideas turn into ideologies then humans start walking on a slippery slope."

Like you are imposing your BS on us. Let us hear you talk against capitalist ideology, you hypocrite. An ideology that has as its basis human dignity and justice is much preferred to one that uses hypocrisy for profit maximization and human deprivation, as is the current ideology of the West, perfected in the USA and followed in more or less fashion among the previous colonizers and barbaric settlers.

Quit writing and imposing your white man worshiping shrinkery.

CNN says :" At 90, Billy Graham remains 'America's pastor'

I say YOU LIE! The Rev Wright is America's pastor ever since he said those words: God damn America

The CNN news report continues saying:

CHARLOTTE, North Carolina (CNN) -- Franklin Graham was stumped. He had no idea what to give his father, evangelist Billy Graham, for his 90th birthday Friday.
The Rev. Billy Graham speaks at a crusade in Kansas City, Missouri, in October 2004.

The Rev. Billy Graham speaks at a crusade in Kansas City, Missouri, in October 2004.

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Hey Franklin you moron, give him this for his 90th birthday:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNBzU6iryo&feature=related

Tahmed asks :"but, learned professor, when were the lal kurtis (redcoats) last seen hanging out in Lal Kurti..."

Was it last week that Gen Patraeus and Richard Boucher visited Islamabad? Happy now you miserable buffoon?

TNI Masadi