The Psyche of Al-Qaeda

Btw HP mian, when you make claims that such and so is "bogus", your claim holds no merit if you cannot substantiate it. You have not till now, except for making a BS comment like Russia was more developed that Afghanistan so it was more linked to capitalism- which itself is a bs assertion because it assumes development is capitalism. Unlike you I have placed my claim structurally and historically, that is why you need to get an education...

Have a nice day,

TNI masadi

HP writes "So your claim that Taliban are a subset of Capitalism but not the Bolsheviks. That was just bogus and without any reasonable supporting information!.."

It was bogus only if you consider the development of the capitalist world system bogus, but the fact is they both operated within that system where the bourgeoisie was dominant in the world. What is bogus is your inability to understand the global structure and think of countries in isolation and then make ignorant comparisons like comparing the Bolsheviks with the Taliban, who were brought to power by the capitalists of the power state, regardless of your desire to obfuscate the facts that describe their ascension.

Have a nice day and get an education,

TNI Masadi

#169
"is the comparison of what became a bi-polar world with the tiny Taliban and the history of their coming to power parallel for you to make such a comparison."

The comparison is not between Soviet Union and Taliban. It was about why one group-Taliban- is connected with capitalism and the other -Lenin and Bolsheviks- before the 1917 were not. There is sure no comparison with Taliban in power and the Soviet Union in 1940.
So your claim that Taliban are a subset of Capitalism but not the Bolsheviks. That was just bogus and without any reasonable supporting information!

You need to read more Or perhaps understand more than just reading!

Fact of the matter is that the Bolsheviks before the revolution were more hooked up with capitalism than the taliban were. After all Russia was more developed-comparatively- with the Afghanistan that Taliban led.

Dost sahib:

Kerala's muslim population is mainly fishermen. It would not be appropriate to accept neutrality of religion only if fertility rates are equal. We should certainly take other micro-level considerations to understand bias. In my view, if you can prove that clergy's word on contraception trump all other socio-economic factors only then you can positively say that that religion has influenced fertility rate.

Otherwise, arguments are more Masadi like to prove through disproving.

Re: # 171

Masadi sahib:

"...You have to deal not with strawmen but with his or her real arguments..."


Have you ever heard of bottom-up problem solving process and strawman proposals?

Do you think you should nobel prize for this knowledge?

Anil writes "Do you know anything else, other than hurling abusing?.."

Yes I know this much: you are a dishonest moron, and a bigot...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Masadi sahib:

Why don't you start abusing earlier, so that Chowk can deal with you earlier. Do you know anything else, other than hurling abusing?

Anil writes "Strawman often is a result of lateral thinking and often creative. I do not understand his put down.."

Of course you wouldn't. There is a 'value' of honesty in argumentation. You do not invent your opponents arguments fictitiously and then dismantle them to declare victory. You have to deal not with strawmen but with his or her real arguments. You as a dishonest moron wouldn't know that....

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Kulharee writes "I am very pleased with myself."

As they say, ignorance is bliss and you are full of it....

Have a nice day,

TNI masadi

HP writes "That is no answer to the question. Why Taliban operated within the system and Lenin and Bolsheviks did not? "

Well ask yourself that question (because it certainly is a bogus one), is the comparison of what became a bi-polar world with the tiny Taliban and the history of their coming to power parallel for you to make such a comparison. Even then, even at the height of its power the Soviet Union operated within the global capitalist structure as a segmented part of it, and it was brought down by the manipulations of the same system.

Regarding C. W. Mills, the crackpot realists are those that see the world in military terms, post World War 2, not those that understand the workings of the capitalist system. Leave it to a CIA man (or ex CIA man?) to turn facts on their head...

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI masadi

#164 Posted by KaalChakra on November 12, 2008 11:01:27 am

[[
Wrong ideologies, traditional religions, and oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem. Islam - correctly understood and self-discovered by people themselves - is the solution.
]]


Kaal:-) What are you doing man? Your statement is still quite complex.

Let's simplify it further:
What you find "wrong" is "wrong" but what you find right is Islam. If this is not the truth you find, you don't understand Islam.


"La Ialaha Il Allaha....." then becomes "Use Islam and not reason, Islam is the reason of God".

That is all you need to say???

Masadi sahib:

How conveniently you forget that you too mis-spelled the name of father of Quantum Mechanics. Please learn modesty as you are equally falliable, unless you claim to replace your prophet. Do you?

Kaal:

Religion in that sense has been used by all. I would say that even Masadi sahib uses it. He claims, but never produces, that he has proof positive evidence of God. Religion is a belief system, and not a science. Belief systems are not questioned, and hence create huge emotions among their believers. For this reason religions can be used (exploited). Marx called them "opiate", as opiate has the same effect. You truly do not have to go too far, just follow and observe what Masadi writes, including his foul language.

Regarding his put down of "strawman". He probably lives in a parallel universe, in the world I live "strawman" is the beginning of most things. Strawman often is a result of lateral thinking and often creative. I do not understand his put down, may be he lacks understanding of "strawman" and bottom-up problem solving methods.

HP sahib:

I have not read much about Marx on religion, I was just explaining the consciousness as you quoted. My views on religions as personal belief system are not based on Marx or anyone else. The question I often quote “Is Man the Best Creation of God, or God is the Best Imagination of Man� is certainly from Riga Veda.

My Marxist binge days coincided with Vietnam War and student movements that sprouted all over Europe. I read and participated in debates on Dialectic Materialism during those days. There were several Islamists who would come and profusely put forward their garbled arguments. Masadi sahib is peddling the same now.

Marx reported for a New York newspaper on Zamindari, Royatwari (feudalism), and East India Company. A while ago I had transcribed and quoted for you here, Marx’s report from my library. Marx had also put forward a theory that demise of East India Company was pre-planned in London, and that British were looking for an excuse to takeover, and Indian mutiny was all set up.

Masadi, you get too upset too soon! It's not always easy to undertand you, so give others a chance.

We can refine that to:

Wrong ideologies, traditional religions, and oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem. Islam - correctly understood and self-discovered by people themselves - is the solution.

--------

I would hope that is your core message. If not, please help us correct/refine that. Thanks.

“It is only "bogus" if you have no clue about the historical development of capitalism and the current World System… The taliban operate not outside that system but within it.�

That is no answer to the question. Why Taliban operated within the system and Lenin and Bolsheviks did not? I am sure I have no clue but let see how much clue is there about Lenin and the Bolsheviks. It would be interesting to read the Historical development of the Bolsheviks outside the capitalist system.I am eager to learn. Let us have it!

C. Wright Mills got something right and called 'crackpot realists', abdicating their responsibility as critical intellectuals.

Masadi Sahib, Good to have you back. I think we were banned together. Now back to the topic. Unlike a recent grad still living in his collection of 4 books and 3 photocopied articles from Journal of American Sociology, I have graduated to reading the New York Times, the Atlantic monthly, the World Press Review, Penthouse, the New Yorker, and Timeout. Talk to me when you have grown up and you don’t feel a need to rub your Critical Theory in everyone’s face. I can also throw General Theory in you face. Talking of which, the last time I held a text book or read a theory was some 2 decades ago, so kill me for misspelling Mead (which was a typo by the way). At least I got Radcliffe-Brown right. I am very pleased with myself.

Mr. Asad: and the taliban dont fit the caricature??? and am i wrong in saying that their "islam" is a result of their primitive tribal society of fata??

Tahmed writes "Mr Asad #148 So, the taliban "Islam" has been corrupted by capitalism and industrial society in Afghanistan?"

Don't try to pervert what I write. The taliban's "Islam" is the caricature of Islam conceived in the minds of the West long time back that has been personified objectively due to circumstances of their creation. If you cannot understand this, go back to school and take HP with you, you both need it.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Kaal writes "In a sentence, oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem, Islam - correct understood and applied - is the solution."

No you idiot do not invent straw men or put words in my mouth. There is no application of Islam, Islam is not about application but self discovery using the bare minimum of required tools. It is not a religion as the traditional religions.

Have a nice day and go to hell,

TNI Masadi

Mr Kulharee, Marx was not a "functionalist", his theories are associated with the conflict perspective. And if you've read Mead as much as you claim, at least spell him correctly.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

HP writes "Yeah it is borrowed. I am not Marx, what he wrote is in quotes. These quotes are available on multiple web sites so there is no need for any reference. Mostly it was Marx works quoted as his and not mine.."

It was not about Marx's quotes but the comments at the end were borrowed verbatim as well, with no acknowledgment. That would pass as plagiarism according to any criteria

Then he writes "Anyway, what is that you are arguing now? Marx is not the last word on religion..."

That is what I wrote, you merely rephrase it and attack me with my own post! Good going.

Then he writes "our argument with Tahmed that the Taliban are within the overall capitalist control is bogus..."

It is only "bogus" if you have no clue about the historical development of capitalism and the current World System. The taliban operate not outside that system but within it. They are segmented much like the ghetto is separated from mainstream USA but that does not mean they are immune from or are not the product of, the current world order. Most of what you write is "bogus" and it is quite clear you don't have a clue about Marx from your post....

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

testing

Mr Asad #148 So, the taliban "Islam" has been corrupted by capitalism and industrial society in Afghanistan? It has nothing to do with the primitive tribal society of fata? And the taliban are merely hippies trying to form a commune?

The only thing that your post implies that is not pure comedy is the fact that taliban stink and grow let their hair grow like hippies.

Re # 146 - Masadi Sahib, I apologize for misspelling Weber. I am not a big fan of structural functionalism, and my area in college was Industrial sociology (market socialism and industrial democracy) with heavy duty Radcliffe-Brown and Meade. You know your Marx, good for you. I am just a little low level idiot with poor spellings. If all you have to brag about is the written quality (and not the intellectual worth) of your writings, then what can I say? It wont hurt for you to be polite and respectful to fellow Chowkies.

PS. Kulharee was axed as well, and I hope it was due to his poor spellings.

anil ji, I am trying to understand masadi's basic argument here. It seems to be (and masadi may please correct us):

The elites/the powerful use many tools to mislead, control, and exploit the masses, religion - even Islam - being one of those tools.

Marx's ideas offer, as Islam did much before Marx, a way of individual liberation, dignity, and ultimately progress without man exploiting man.

So the challenge is to apply Islam (or even Marxist ideas) accurately, without letting it itself turn into a handmaiden of elitist power. One can do that by systematically and scientifically understanding it, individually, and not letting the state or the mullah run with it, or define it. Most states today and Mullahs themselves are fully controlled agents of higher-level anti-people and anti-liberation forces such as the United States elite. So the state does not support and the Mullahs do not preach, the correct understanding of Islam, because were the latter achieved, it would create powerful forces for human liberation and human prgoress that the state and the Mullahs so fear.

----------

Masadi's arguments are very compelling. In different combinations, they reflect the beliefs and concerns of most Muslims. Masadi's signal contribution is the most clear, almost formalized proactive role of the US elite in all his formulations, much beyond the vague idea of the US administration as the source of inequities around the world as so many others have.

In a sentence, oppressive elites - political and religious - are the problem, Islam - correct understood and applied - is the solution.

Asadi,
Yeah it is borrowed. I am not Marx, what he wrote is in quotes. These quotes are available on multiple web sites so there is no need for any reference. Mostly it was Marx works quoted as his and not mine.

Anyway, what is that you are arguing now? Marx is not the last word on religion. Some of his ideas are now over 150 years old so not everything is accurate anymore. I don't even think that his theories on capitalism are 100% relevant anymore. Even the mode of production as defined by Marx requires some rethinking.

Marx emphasis is not on religion per se but how it is used. Now any society whether it is capitalist or socialist, can be guilty of the same crimes. Since Marx only knew of Capitalism and the societies before capitalism, he had to draw on that but imo, had he been alive during the Soviet era, he would have written another 20,000 + pages on the evils of Soviet style socialism which was nowhere near what Marx preached and aspired for the proletariat to accomplish.

Currently, Marx strength is not in what he wrote but in the ideas he provided to build movements around. The other area he is helpful is to understand the interplay between the different forces and how their historical roles impact and develop a given situation based on the conflict of interests. Basically, his work on dialectics is more important than what he wrote on religion. The context of religion in the current conflict is different than what he was even aware of.

It is a different issue but in some cases religion does provide a voice to the oppressed folks. The lack of intellectual basis quickly turns religion backed movements in to anarchic, chaotic, and somewhat hateful. It may or may not be any religion’s fault but the tools get the flack when you invoke ideology.

In Myanmar, the Buddhists are playing a positive role but how quickly would that turn in to yet another attempt to create a new dictatorial regime is uncertain. The religion in the hands of Taliban and other extremist groups has nothing progressive about it and at this time it sure is being used for narcotic effects but not by the ruling classes. So saying that only ruling classes or the capitalists are capable of turning religion in to opiate of the masses is not entire accurate.

Your argument with Tahmed that the Taliban are within the overall capitalist control is bogus. Even Lenin was in overall capitalist control when he initiated the coup against the Czar and his ruling partners.
Knowing you, I close this debate from my side.

Anil,
I don’t think Marx made the distinction between “institutional or non institutional religions� Marx’s knowledge about India and Hindu philosophies were extremely limited so he used the model he was familiar with. Most of what Marx wrote about India was garbage. In some instances he was firmly behind the Brits in the way Indian natives and savages were treated by the British and the East India Company.

Re: # 150

"He talks about them separately in dialectical materialism."

"He" is for Marx.

Kaal:

According to my reading of HP Sahib's post on Marx on religion. The consciousness that Marx talks is individual (self consciousness), and not societal doctrine of order. He talks about them separately in dialectical materialism. The passage quoted by HP sahib mentions (my paraphrasing) that institutional religions are completely "inverted". This includes, Islam also (Masadi sahib or no Masadi sahib). For societal rules Marxist theories are well defined, implemented in at least two failed societies. Masadi is a good example of religion being an "opiate".

masadi, point noted. (1) All religions can be used to create a false consciousness. Hence, (2) all religions can be misused by people.

Having said that, IF Islam was correctly understood, and rationally and scientifically applied, then Islam would create a society that would address all of Marx's concerns, and go beyond

I would appreciate if you could share whether you agree or not. And if you disagree, please let us know why? Thanks.

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib who has been banned.

Tahmed writes " So religion in the pre-capitalist society of the taliban is not a means to an end then?"

The taliban society is not "pre capitalist", it operates within a global capitalist structure. Before the capitalist world system came to the fore, religion with its material basis would be, according to Marxist analysis more in tune with the natural, and thus less alienating and less false consciousness producing~ therefore the desire to maintain the industrial apparatus but return to an earlier commune form of existence, as also the claim in the Communist Manifesto that capitalism "profanes all that is sacred".

Have a nice day and keep it real,
TNI Masadi

Regards

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib who has been banned.

HP mian, when you copy verbatim from websites please put the words in quotation marks. In your Marx piece only the first two lines are yours, all the other comments that come with the quotations are borrowed from other websites. This comes out as a clear case of plagiarism. Please avoid that in the future.

"It is clear that a definite attitude to religion is present, both implicitly and explicitly, in the most fundamental ideas of Marxism. Marxism clearly demands a materialist explanation of religion. It is not enough to view either religion as a whole or any particular religion as simply a delusion or folly that happens to have gripped the minds of millions for centuries.

The attempt to reduce the Marxist theory of religion to a simple one-dimensional analysis such as, “Marx argues that religion is a tool of the ruling class� or “according to Marx religion functions to pacify the toiling masses�. Of course, Marx does say this kind of thing about religion but he says much else besides. To reduce his theory to just one of its strands is falsifying it.

"Marx’s insistence that religion is both an expression of suffering and a protest against it is the key point, giving the lie to any analysis which focuses only on religion’s narcotic effects."

All of these are borrowed 100% verbatim from this site http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=456&issue=119

Please refrain from plagiarism

Regards

PS: Kindly note that the charges of plagriarism against HP sain have been made by Masadi sahib, not me.

Posting on the behalf of Masadi sahib who has been banned.

HP writes :"What Marx said about religion and how it is implied are two different things. Marx never said it leads to amnesia in a capitalist or any other society."

HP sahib, how goes? Haal chaal? I know fully well regarding Marx's assertion about the material basis of religion, I mentioned that in my post regarding the superstructure. He considers it, in its use, is is quite evident from the writings you reproduced a form of false consciousness that keeps the people from noticing the real underlying conditions of their oppression, even though it is an expression of it. In this he is talking about particularly the capitalist mode of production, and he is not talking about imported religion either. Next, he got his entire dialectical system from Hegel whom he claimed to have turned on his head by "inventing" a material basis for ideas, however he ignores the wider material conditions of the universe that determine the ecology of the earth within which any manterial modes of production have to operate. That was my second point.

Regarding Kaal's invention of what my ideas are, he is quite ignorant of what I believe, Islam just like other religions has been used to facilitate false consciousness by the powers that be, and chalta and Kulharee together cannot come up with one paragraph to match mine where it concerns any of the classical theorists. What makes Kulharee's spelling of Weber so outrageous is that he is so well know that only someone with no knowledge of him will spell him with two b's.

One more thing I would like to add regarding Marx and religion: he did not deal with it in detail like other sociologists did, just a few paragraphs here and there, even though accurate in their assertion regarding the ideological use of religion, and it representing the underlying material structure does little justice and is overshadowed by the usual Marxian rhetorical extravagance to it and is definitely not the end word on it....the part leading to "amnesia" was an accurate comparison to the false consciousness that Marx is implying regarding religion in the paragraphs quoted...

Have a nice day and take it easy.

TNI Masadi

Regards

Add more to #143 Posted by pinku on

And for people who like ideas in the form of pomis, I wrote two pomi-ilogs sometime back to pretend that....

1. XXX philosophy: a pomi

2. Remember....true being is being "truth" and not "being", your being becomes when it lives truths..


the long "beingy" thing was to support pretense of truth and the "XXX" thing was to support pretense of "wish away" part...

So as often I am repeating myself..

I want to know what ya'll think of C. Wright Mills who according to some was considered a Marxist.. but he claimed to coin himself as a "Wobbly". Wobbly and flip-flopper have a lot in common..kinda like socialism and marxism do.
I also found out today from a certain website
ASSOCIATION FOR THE SOCIOECONOMIC ANALYSIS OF
DEVELOPMENT & INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT that the top 100 criminal corporations have all to do to with political campaign financing and I guess dumping fuel in the envoronment.... as if airplanes dont to that when landing.... but what was so profound was; that off the 100 "criminal corporations" none of them were muslim owned... so the the top terrorist financier organization is a ok in ASADI.org but not Daiwaoo Bus service from multan to gwalmandi.

#141 Posted by KaalChakra on

I am not dedicated to proving other's ideas wrong. Nor I am dedicated to proving muslim's ideas wrong. My intention is to keep putting efforts that muslims do not "wish away" truths or reason that easily, in their attempt to quickly satisfy their group ego.



My efforts in general are not to let truth be by-passed so easily, doesn't matter what scholar, politician or idea you refer to. Further, I do not take responsibility to state any idea with perfection and in great detail, I just try to force a direction as per my understanding of truth.

Now if I am giving wrong reason and people do not give arguments against them, then I will fail in my effort because I myself will bypass truth.

If I had known that you guys will gang up on Masadi Sahib about this, I would never have brought up Masadi Sahib’s interpretation of Marx’s functionalists views on religion. Me bad.

I meant, un-Islamic.

---------

Pinku, did I ever explain the basic difference between your an mine approaches?

My interests in all these things are purely functional. I am interested in understanding what big ideas are, and in how these big ideas separately shape behaviors of large groups of humans over long periods of time. Whether those ideas themselves are true or false doesn't interest me (on chowk at least). They would, if I was just talking to you, for instance.

You share a lot with Murad bhai. Murad bhai has dedicated his life to proving unIslamic things false and debunking unIslamic myths before non-Muslims. You spend a great deal of time trying to convince others (Muslims, mostly) why their ideas are 'wrong' and explaining to them what you think 'correct' ideas and interpretations are.

Does that seem reasonable? :)

Further, before we give some false arguments.

If a subset of Marxism matches a subset of Islam (most probably because of some arbitrary interpretation), then at best you can say that a subset matches. The rest can still be anything. Again it is trivial thing that doesn't need to be stated, but you don't have freedom of extrapolation here.

#138 Posted by KaalChakra on
Iqbal can say whatever he wants to say about Islam and Marx can say whatever he wants to say about religion. They had their rights and they used it. If they were alive then we could have asked them to explain what they mean, instead of assuming what they meant.

I gave one reason why Marx "against" can not be "against" (or else invalid, unless you take it in a soft sense). You can give your ideas if you disagree.

Iqbal's statement makes no sense doesn't matter how important it was for him or for his Islamic ideology.

You wrote:
[[

The 'state' and 'nationalism' would not be Islamic if these existed to serve the cause of Islam and Muslims above all else.
]]

Did you miss anything in the above statement? is it Islamic or Anti-Islamic?

Again, Iqbal was free to think what is Islamic or un-Islamic as per him, but by the time you come out to compare religion and state, you are not that free. Again with-in Islam you can think anything to be anything, but by the time you come in touch with things outside of Islam, your freedom is gone. So tell me what you have to say about it?

Masadi is free to think what Islam is as per him, whether it fits with ideology of Marx or somebody else. But his freedom of arbitrarily assuming what Islam is, what Marxism is and how then they become equal ends the moment you know any of his assumptions or definitions are arbitrary, if I feel either his definition of Marxism or Islam is not what I feel (or I can prove). I don't know much about Marxism, but I can use Islam and general concept of religion to show that a religious ideology that involves God is different than an ideology that doesn't involve God. Basically that is a hint of starting point. The primary problem with religions is God and then speaking God who have said something. Rest of your lose and arbitray interpretations can only satisfy your ego, not the equations that religions represents and survives on.


In short an option to start from arbitrary starting point and then discuss at length in circles is neither intelectual nor solves any purpose. So first check that starting points are good enough. You can not assume anything about anything arbitrarily.

Pinku, you ignoring and under-estimating the importance of Iqbal's Islamic creativity.

Within Islam, Muslim is the brother of Muslim. There is no provision for narrow nationalism that breaks world's Muslim family into narrow segments. And the goal of Islam is to take over the whole world, not to withdraw into this or that little corner of earth.

Since Iqbal saw himself as a theoretician of Islam as much as a poet, he came up with a pretty creative solution - The 'state' and 'nationalism' would not be Islamic if these existed to serve the cause of Islam and Muslims above all else.

This way of thinking had a signficant impact on real-life events.

And Masadi ji makes a similar point. Marx may have 'criticized' religion, but that criticism would not be valid if there was a religion that served exactly the goals that Marx set for mankind. And as Masadi ji sees it, Islam does (and more).

[[
Marx also wrote:
“Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realisation of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.�
]]

The lines in bold are somewhat stupid in my not at all humble opinion. It shows the ability to conclude in haste. The struggle is never against religion, a religion if defined as per his earlier lines can not be static, it will keep on evolving as per his statement {"Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world."}. So if we believe what he is saying is religion than religion is whatever the "Collective world of Men is", so even if you change it, twist it and name-it, rename-it, doesn't matter what you do with it, you still end up with religion of another sort.

The struggle is against idiocy of religions, to let them evolve. To kill their ideas that have killed evolution of Man's ideas, so that refined ideas can evolve.

So he is almost right, except for using word "against". The struggle is not against anything, it is for something new, for something better, for something much refined. And this is our destiny. No matter what we do, this struggle for refinement will outlive us.

#134 Posted by KaalChakra on

[[
This is very similar to Iqbal's formulation of nationalism.

Nationalism is to be rejected because it leads to all manner of evil. But if one can assure that those evils would not exist - as in a nation of Muslims - then nationalism is to be promoted
]]

The problem with all such things is that people have gained much more respect by saying such things than either those sayings or those people themselves ever deserved.

And the second problem is that once they get respect they can write any number of books and in them any amount of garbage which later generations use to do their stupid PhDs and use that garbage to fool themselves and evolve into extra large nuts.

Such people who start ignoring reason and start going in to complex idiocies selecting whichever they like at will, should actually be called clerks. So you have philosophical clerks, sociological clerks and all kind of clerks. Clerks who play with ideas as if they are playing with numbers and not with reason.

These clerks build a verbose confusion, good for almost nothing. The proof of this nothingness lies in the fact that after German idealism Philosophy has produced many thousands of clerks but their actual product is a large ZERO with extra large garbage in it (which future clerks will consume). Not only this, most such clerks are very biased owing to their religious affinity, or their political affiliation and so on.

Once you find any field has started produing tons of clerks you should know that now any advancement will need some evolution of sorts.


===============

You don't need to read tons of things to understand what Nationalism is and how it can be affected or it can affect other things. The first and lowest denominator of ego is "I", this I has lots of needs, the second is "we" as a group, this we will have its own needs depending what those "I"s needed. The second part "we" is group ego, it can be small group ego of a family, a higher group ego of a village, much higher of region, still higher of nation and still higher of a religion.


The higher/larger the group ego and the more bad it represents the more dangerous it is.

If you can avoid evils, you can be Satan as well?? The question is how evils get generated and how you can avoid it. SO the above statement that Kalchakra posted seems quite absurd.

Nationalism is much better ego than religion, because it is by default more easy to change and refine. Nations of tomorrow do not need to do exactly what nations of yester-years used to do. Evolution or refinement of ego is most important. That filters out evils in long run.


All of this is repeat..

Re: # 120 Hello HP:
You said,"..I didn't expect a Doctor of Psychology to be a literal reader..."

FYI; Dr K Sohail is a Doctor of Medicine and a practicing psychiatrist ! I do not know if there is a degree called 'doctor of Psychology" !

K.Sohail can prescribe to his patients, medications like Haldol, prozac and Aspirin too! These shrinks are least admired or understood by machos in the society , including ignoramusses including fellow physicians at large. Their patients range from, depressed aggressive,..... sociopaths ,psychopaths to everything inder the sun. Morover, they earn less money than family physicians and even high priced plumbers.

So underestimate their worth. You might need them oneday. Wa Salaam.
Kamath

Let's be fair to Masadi. He is consistent because Masadi does not see any difference at all between Marxist view and true Islam. Religion, thus, has the narcotic effect (focusing only the part generally quoted, not religion's role as a mechanism of survial) only if religion does not agree with Marx (or differs from Islam).

This is very similar to Iqbal's formulation of nationalism.

Nationalism is to be rejected because it leads to all manner of evil. But if one can assure that those evils would not exist - as in a nation of Muslims - then nationalism is to be promoted.

HP sain,

Re: 132

I am glad you reproduced Marx's statement (the bolded part) in full, not in isolation.

Regards

#124 Posted by masadi
“I FULLY 100% subscribe to what Marx wrote about religion in a capitalist society it becomes a means to an end, an opiate of the masses, much like Rev Wright said, it leads to amnesia.�

What Marx said about religion and how it is implied are two different things. Marx never said it leads to amnesia in a capitalist or any other society.

"Just as Darwin discovered the law of development of organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of development of human history: the simple fact hat mankind must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, art, religion, etc; that therefore the production of the immediate material means of subsistence, and consequently the degree of economic development attained by a given people or during a given epoch, form the foundation on which the state institutions, the legal conceptions, art, and even the ideas on religion, of the people concerned have been evolved, and in the light of which they must therefore be explained, instead of vice versa, as had hitherto been the case." Engels, 1883.

It is clear that a definite attitude to religion is present, both implicitly and explicitly, in the most fundamental ideas of Marxism. Marxism clearly demands a materialist explanation of religion. It is not enough to view either religion as a whole or any particular religion as simply a delusion or folly that happens to have gripped the minds of millions for centuries.

Marx also wrote:
“Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realisation of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.�

The attempt to reduce the Marxist theory of religion to a simple one-dimensional analysis such as, “Marx argues that religion is a tool of the ruling class� or “according to Marx religion functions to pacify the toiling masses�. Of course, Marx does say this kind of thing about religion but he says much else besides. To reduce his theory to just one of its strands is falsifying it.

Marx's one more highly significant paragraph:

“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless circumstances. It is the opium of the people.�

Marx’s insistence that religion is both an expression of suffering and a protest against it is the key point, giving the lie to any analysis which focuses only on religion’s narcotic effects.

Masadi-exorcised Prof. Asad #124: writes "I FULLY 100% subscribe to what Marx wrote about religion in a capitalist society it becomes a means to an end, an opiate of the masses, much like Rev Wright said, it leads to amnesia."

So religion in the pre-capitalist society of the taliban is not a means to an end then? Mullah Omar loves you. And the Revered-by Masadi Wright does not laugh all the way to the bank after ranting against the US in a "religious sermon"?

Time for another exorcism, perhaps??

Kulharee, I know you like taking pangas with masadi. But can you go easy on him. I mean, your educational pedigree is far superior to his community college spellchecking one. Just pat him on the head and say shabbash and be done with it.

Kulharee writes "Weber with one B. Take it easy"

That tells me all I need to know about "how much" classical theory you've read. You know sh** all about Marx, Weber and Durkheim...

Have a nice day and keep to my post's recommendation "please refrain from responding to this post or that paper like an idiot...

TNI Masadi

Weber with one B. Take it easy

Masadi Sahib, you will be surprised to know that I have read them in more detail (Marx Webber Durkheim) than you have Mills. I think you just put your head in the shitter by suggesting that he implication was religion in capitalist societies. Shows how little you know, and how less you are willing to learn. Meanwhile, how is the loadshedding going? You should shed some of that load that has been bothering you since we elected a new President.

BTW Kulharee mian this separation between capitalist system and religion (part of the superstructure) is unwarranted, learn a little Marx before you strike the log wishing to shatter it in two....

Have a nice day and take it easy,
TNI Masadi

I deal in detail with Marx using Hegel

Kulharee writes "Masadi Sahib, do you also prescribe to Marx’s functionalist’s interpretation of religion? Or only the Capitalist system?"

Ha ha, Kulharee strikes again wishing to shatter the log in two but since its "made in Pakistan" (pun intended), it shatters itself in the process!

Mian jee, haal chaal? baal bacha? US born? I FULLY 100% subscribe to what Marx wrote about religion in a capitalist society it becomes a means to an end, an opiate of the masses, much like Rev Wright said, it leads to amnesia. That said I do not generalize that to religion but to its use. In that I deal in detail use Hegel, check my ilog on Socio-cosmology, and while you're at it, please refrain from responding to this post or that paper like an idiot....

Thank you kindly,

TNI Masadi

I have not looked at this before I believe from Khurram's post that Dr. Sohail wrote this.

"when Catholic church says that the church will ex-communicate those who will divorce?"

There is no ex-communication in Catholic church anymore. Dr. Sohail needs to learn more.

Instead of Divorce Catholics are allowed Annulment of marriage or the Declaration of Nullity.

Catholics are bound to observe the Catholic form of marriage or to get a dispensation from it in order for their marriages to be valid. For a Catholic to "marry outside the Church" without a dispensation thus results in an invalid marriage, and for such a person to remarry, he needs the Church to look at his first marriage and officially establish that it was invalid and that he is thus free to marry someone else.

This process is commonly known as "getting an annulment."

In 1908 the decree of Ne temere marriage between non catholic and catholic is invalid.

Churches even allow annulment of marriages between the Catholics. Any technical/non-catholic issue can get you an annulment even when both parties are Catholic.

Masadi Sahib, do you also prescribe to Marx’s functionalist’s interpretation of religion? Or only the Capitalist system?

#117 Posted by drsohail on
identity is temporary, i just thought that pinku is not that strong a word, so adopted it as a nick name here.... pinky would have been better except for "sex" conflict:-)

i live in motel california.. I mean in california..

#107 Posted by drsohail

Are you serious?

Where did I defend Saudi Arabia? I have provided counter point to your posts which failed to adequately address the issues and specifically your bringing in some international rating. I explained that your comparison is just straw man argument as Saudi Arabia and Canada have no equivalence so can not be compared.
If you want to compare the Canada Human rights record you need to do it with the US, UK or other western counties. You can't compare Canada with Djibouti!

That was my whole point. Obviously, you are did not grasp that.
Just to make it even more clear compare apples to apples not apples to oranges.
I didn't expect a Doctor of Psychology to be a literal reader.

Thanks for providing this link on my ilog

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/oct/15/marx-germany-popularity-fina ncial-crisis

But for those not quite ready to immerse themselves in Marxist theory, Marx's correspondence to Friedrich Engels at the time of an earlier US economic crisis makes more entertaining reading. "The American Crash is a delight to behold and it's far from over," he wrote in 1857, confidently predicting the imminent and complete collapse of Wall Street.

A delight to behold! Somewhat similar to what the Rev Wright rightly said, "God damn America....it's in the Bible"

dr sohail #110: the first part of your two-part response spells out quite accurately, imho, the the basic islamist ideology. if one reflects for a moment on this ideology, it is clear that it is essentially devoid of substance, and can appeal only to pyschopaths or merely individuals suffering from low-self esteem. Pakistani voters see through them (as proved on Feb 18, as well as earlier elections), and the rest of the world has no use for them either.

the second part has to do with the psyche of individuals - i will agree that ben laden has the "space cadet" streak in him. This could be the result of some kind of mental disease running in his family: one of his nieces, wafah defour, has had herself photographed in lewd pictures that would even Paris Hilton blush; and his son, recently in the news, seems to be a complete space cadet who sees himself as an "bridge" between al qaeda and the west while hopping from airport to airport as his visa requests for asylum(!!) in the west are turned down. What do you think of this aspect i.e. of a mental disease that runs in the family?

Re: # 116
sorry about that PINKU...now tell me before i go how did you get this name...identity..smiles...sohail
ps...and where do you live?

#115 Posted by drsohail on

[[
i also want to thank pinky and kal chaakra for their inspiration...sincerely sohail
]]

inspiration aside, you are hurting my fake identity/ego, it is "pinku" not pinky...

it seems we were close to chorus (with some hoarse/coarse voices in the background) than antakshari.... but we couldn't do any.....
imagine how good it would have felt if we were doing "OOOO" together..

good job...

Re: # 109
dear khurram...thank you for answering my questions. your answers helped me understand your position better. i have to go now to write my other article
a black man in the white house
for another website
but before i go i want to thank you for engaging in a meaningful and dynamic dialogue. i wish you were in town and i could invite you for a cup of tea (or a drink) and learn more from your brilliant mind. it is like an olympics computer that records 1 / 100 of a second. you are gifted. we might disagree but that does not stop me from appreciating your gift.
i also want to thank pinky and kal chaakra for their inspiration...sincerely sohail

Re: #102 muradbaig,

Your founder/culture distincion seems rather arbitrary. Isn't the founder part of culture too? Eid and Ramzan may have been pre-Islamic customs, but they were practiced and preached by the founder.
And how does this apply to Hinduism? Does it even have a founder?

The last comment was for drsohail #110

Re: #108
"al-qaeda is a state of mind of all those militant muslims who
...have a religious ideology of dominating the whole world
...have a religious personality that their truth is THE TRUTH, the holy truth that they want to impose on others"

Your article has not even made this case!

#108 Posted by tahmed32 on
[[
Once we get this clear, we can get back to the subject - what is the psyche of a hoodlum. What childhood influences did he go through in saudi arabia that caused him to grow up to be a decoit.
]]

Your second statement gives a hint, but their group is much larger abd bigger than dacoits, and much better organized.
Psyche of al-qaida, if it was an individul, could not have been such an important issue.
What gives room for such individul "psyche" to fit in or become a large group psychology that works in an organized way? And for what do they work, what it the objective they set for themselves... How their "xyz" type of psychology gets that common objective?

Only a strong ideology can create individuals having such a comon group psychology, not just social environment.

Collective psyche of al-qaida is political Islam, where they find refuge for their any kind of social or political or individual shortcoming. Very few people are happy with politics of any state/nation, but they don't get such easy psychological asylum as political Islam, nor other things can move so freely under the global umbrella of a religion and with power of speaking God on their side.

Christianity has lost that power (because Christians ignored it) and can not any more controll state in a visible way, but definitly it is not happy about it.

Re: # 108
dear tahmed 32,,,your question has two parts

a, al-qaeda is a state of mind of all those militant muslims who
...have a religious ideology of dominating the whole world
...have a religious personality that their truth is THE TRUTH, the holy truth that they want to impose on others
...have decided to pursue guerrila war techniques as they believe the end justifies the means
Such a mental set has a history in the Muslim world from Ibn-Tamiyya to Maududi to Syed Qutb to Zwahiri

b, psyche of each al-qaeda leader and follower
i have written articles about the personal life of osama bin laden and syed qutb and shared how their religius ideology reflects the tradition of kharijites who at the time of ali and muavia felt disillusioned with the political process and left the group and later on used violent means and assassinated ali. they tried to assassinate muavia also but were not successful
it is interesting that these militant muslims not only kill nonMuslims, the infidels, but also other Muslims who they believe are not genuine and authentic Muslims...they use their unique concept of takfeer.
Bin Laden and Zawahiri use that concept of takfeer against secular leaders of Muslim countries as they consider them part of Jahaliya. They want to revive pure Islam that is 1500 years ago and are members of salafi and wahabi tradition.

It is also intersting that many members of al-qaeda are the well educated middle class suicide bombers who are motivated by religious militant ideology and are quite different than those teenager, uneducated, desperate suicide bombers of palestine who are living in refugee camps and are fighting against israel.
i have written a number of articles on the subject but in each article of 1500 words for chowk i can just focus on one aspect.
i apologize if the topic of my article was misleading for you. i should not have used the word PSYCHE, obviously it meant something different to you than I had in mind.
thanks for your honest criticism. i will keep your criticism in mind in the future.
if you want to read my articles
...syed qutb..a leader of religious fundamentalists
...militant muslims...the new kharijites
feel free to send me an email
welcome@drsohail.com
and i will be more than glad to send you the articles. But then you might already know far more than i do. smiles...sohail

drsohail,

Let me answer your specific questons in the hope of clarifying the general point I was making.

"when Catholic church says that the church will ex-communicate those who will divorce?"

This is not coercion. Catholic Church is a voluntary community with clearly defined set of rules for its members. It has a perfect right to exclude members who disagree. If I disagree with it, (as I do) I don't have to join it. If I am alredy in it I can leave. I don't have to agree to or even respect the Catholic Church's doctrines. I have only have to respect it's right to hold and practice its beliefs. As long as the Catholic Church reciprocates that respect (which it does) I don't see how it contributes to violence in the world.
The Church's history of violence was based on its belief in stamping out heresy by force. It abandoned that belief several centuries ago.

"when Saudi Arabian government would not let women drive or perform haj alone or even go to music stores and consider it unIslamic"
This is coercion by the Saudi state.
"Ahmedis declared non-Muslims by Pakistani Government"
The decalaration itself is not necessarily coercion. But laws that restrict Ahmedis from practicing their religion and calling themselves muslims are coercive.
Again, muslims can oppose these laws without regarding Ahmedi beliefs as equally valid. They can continue to regard their own beliefs as 'THE truth' without forcing it upon others.

The general point I want to make is that believing in 'THE truth' does not necessarily lead to coercion becuase the principle of non-coercion can also be part of "THE truth".

Drsohail: while the US has no doubt projected military power internationally and Saudi Arabia has not, the implication that this somehow makes Saudi Arabia holier than the US assumes that the only relevant factor in international politics is military power. The fact is that while the US is the world leader among nations, saudi arabia is a pathetic little kingdom living off oil and with nothing else to offer the world except its medieval superstitions (which is not even Islam as it claims it to be) and hoodlums like ben laden.

Once we get this clear, we can get back to the subject - what is the psyche of a hoodlum. What childhood influences did he go through in saudi arabia that caused him to grow up to be a decoit. Neither your article, nor your discussion, touches on this. Only your the title of your article.

Re: # 89
dear HP...thanks for sharing your comments. i agree with your criticism of western imperialism and colonization but saudi arabia has not been as innocent as you might think. history tells us about arab-islamic colonization of africa and asia.
world has suffered because of communist domination on one hand and capitalism on the other hand
nations were affected by spread of christinaity on one side and by islam on the other side by preaching and holy wars, some call it crusades, others call it jihad.
let me share with you one quotation from my favourite Nobel Prize winner writer Wole Soyinka from Nigeria who shares the plight of African people in these words,

"Taken together, therefore, the history of African people provides us with two principal enemies of their authentic traditions and their will to cultural identity. One is European Imperialism, the other Arab-Islamic penetration and domination of significant areas of the continent.
"...Freedom, remains an antithesis of power, that historically proven corllary of enslavement. Obviously power can only be made manifest with the act of enslavement of some other. What then of the Third World, captive and client of the two ideological estates...socialism and capitalism...even as it has been, and still holds itself in thrall to two other alien contending religions, Christianity and Islam? Both these religions in their turn operate globally in mindboggling, fluctuating alliances with the two main ideological scaffoldings, left and right, yet constantly strike out in their own specific authoritariansism, often of the most destructive, anti-humanist nature."
Dear HP...Like Vatican of Christianity, Saudi Arabia has its own dark side of history. Thanks for sharing your thoughts honestly and enriching the dialogue.
sincerely
sohail

Re: # 102
dear muradbaig...thank you for joining the dialogue and making some valid points. you came late but it is better late than never.
i am of the opinion that any religion comes in a culture, so culture precedes religion and religion takes on some of the values of that culture. similarly scriptures come in a language because language exists beforehand. for example arabic existed before quran and arab culture existed before islam and since middle eastern culture was patriarchial...all three religions, judaism, christianity nd islam are patriarchial. there are no female prophets and males have more powers and privileges than females.
thanks for sharing...sohail

Re: # 89
HP...
Who is sponsoring spread of jihad and other nuicenses associated with medieval darkness (Islam) accross the world?

When the tribals invade Kashmir and attack Indian forces and indian civilians, they are heroes. When they are sent to heaven of 72 arab virgins (per d***), they are victims!!!!

#102 Posted by muradbaig on
that was good analysis.... except

[[
All religions preach the faith of their founders
]]
this assumes that no religion or sect evolves which is wrong assumption, it depends on that sect and religion and what defines it..


In any case, it is important to tell people very clearly what is good and what is bad for them, irrespective of why it so happened...

Ideas develop when you have time (and hence mind) to think, not everybody has that luxury all the time and even when you have, you may not utilize it...

but again there is no democracy in truth or idea, the closer an idea is to truth the more acceptable it should be... if it isn't we need to create that environment..

I get a red flag for using the word jerk but HP who used it in the post I replied to doesn't. Whoever flagged me care to explain their position?

I have just read this interesting article and some of the many interacts. I think you might find the extract from an article I wrote last year of interest:

All religions preach the faith of their founders but they also carry a huge baggage of customs that are social rather than spiritual. Easter and Christmas were never part of the teachings of Christ while Eid and Ramzan were ancient Arab customs that long predated the advent of Islam. Revenge was also an old Arab custom that has unfortunately become a part of the Muslim tradition worldwide. Revenge had been a necessary survival custom in the precarious times when small tribes of Arab Bedouins had to protect themselves from bigger or more powerful tribes who, without the fear of revenge, could easily loot or molest them.

Life in the desert was always very tenuous and there was fierce competition over the scarce sources of food or water. Individuals could not survive except with the protection of the bonds of blood within their tribes and through alliances with other tribes. This was expressed in the Arab ideology of Muruwah that not only meant manliness, pride and courage but endurance in suffering, protection of the weak, avenging each and every injustice and boldly defying stronger enemies regardless of the consequences.

Oppressors had to therefore be very careful for this well established tribal code made it certain that any injustice would be avenged at some future date. Regardless of power and position no one could ever be absolutely safe from attack, had to tolerate lesser tribes and be very careful not to incite any serious animosity.

The American cowboy glorification of revenge arose out of similar compulsions among numerous isolated ranchers who, far from legal remedies, had to protect themselves from their potential oppressors. Paradoxically today we see America’s cowboy spirit pitted against the Muruwah spirit of the Muslim world that views America as an oppressor.

This Muruwah was an old Arab custom so modern Islam does not need to glorify hatred and vengence as the El Quida so proudly advocates

thank you sohail...

i always thought good trolls are good for discussion:-)

Re: # 89

For those who think of HP as some kind of secular guy and not the disguised jihadi he really is this post should raise some suspicions. Here he springs to the defense of Saudi Arabia. What countries did the Saudis attack? In the last 50 years they funded Jihad throughout the world and in case anyone forgets including this HP jerk they flew aeroplanes into the world trade centre.

The Saudis historically have about the most aggressive history of any nation barring perhaps the Mongols too.

Re: # 84
dear pinku...i like your creative and analytical mind. keep on sharing your reactions. i enjoy them...sincerely sohail

Re: # 83
dear khurram....i am confused now about your definition of COERCION.
Do you support when Catholic church says that the church will ex-communicate those who will divorce?
Do you support when Saudi Arabian government would not let women drive or perform haj alone or even go to music stores and consider it unIslamic?
Do you support Ahmedis declared non-Muslims by Pakistani Government?
Do you support that President or Prime Minister of Pakistan has to take oath on Quran before taking office?
Do you see these cases as examples of COERCION?
sincerely
sohail
ps...now that you have made masadi happy by criticizing me and supporting him he wants to share chai and ghulab jaman with you...smiles

#95 masadi: You are possessed of the spirit of Uncle Tom. But dont worry, I will exorcise this demon out of you!!

The Exorcism of Masadi now begins:

"Bend to the power of the Great White Father Mills, you rogue!! You have turned our poor Asad into your own personalUncle Tom!! You have possessed the body of Asad and turned him into a Masadi!! A Massadi you runs around saying "Yes Massa Mills!! Yes Massa Mills!!". When Mills says "Jump", Uncle Tom Masadi says "How High, Massa Mills? How high should I jump, Massa??" I command you in the name of the Great White Shark..I mean Great White Father Mills...Leave the body of poor Asad!! Exorcise yourself, you demon Masadi!! Begone!!! Let poor, unemployed, good-for-nothing Asad alone!!"

Now get going

tahmed writes "Masadi: You are the one who as memorized the Great White Father Mills Bible. So, I think the honor of being an Uncle Tom goes to you..."

Me an Uncle Tom, ha ha that has to be the most idiotic things you've come up with. Go check the meaning of Uncle Tom, and just because I use Mills who was against the US capitalist structure, in relation to which Uncle Tomism is described, doesn't mean I am an Uncle Tom. You by your ideas and posts and unconditional support and worship of the White man and his system are the ideal type Uncle Tom and everyone here recognizes it without my saying it....

No get going and polish Bush's ass, as is your day time job...

Have a nice day
TNI Masadi

You might have already noticed it is troll time...

...moral of the story...... part-2nd....

is what i said earlier, as "human rights" are are one of our objective, we can see which current system at least knows or identifies the same objective, here "canada" and "usa" will have less problem than "saudi arabia"..

then the next thing is to see which one is easier to support them... Again, USA and Canada not only identify them properly but they also uphold them at least internally... so those system are much closer to our objective state.... now do the estimates, budgeting, planning etc and start working...





===this i trolled earlier======


#58 Posted by pinku on November 7, 2008 7:22:59 pm
May be, add a few more things (no coercion for the time being):

For each of the categories you listed check
1. What they force you to do - their objective

2. How they force you to do - their means of force/coercion

3. How good or bad are their objectives

4. how good or bad are their means

+++
Imagine you are in-charge/administrator and think which one can be avoided:

1. just by better knowledge/ideas among your workers (people)

2. by ideas and some framework (like processes/infrastructure: what governments do)


obviously think about whole of humanity ...

there are more subtle issues, which can be discussed later. One of them is in which cases does this force/coercion becomes self propagatory (more for psychologist, he should analyze it here)

Once we are done we can step back and do a round of chorus or antakhshari depending on results..

====

"for discussion sake if we divide any community in three groups
...religious fundamentalists
...religious humanists...believers
...secular humanists...non-believers"

- secular fundamentalists.

...moral of the story...... part-1st....

as always, you have following three:

1. current state of the system

2. system state that is your purpose/objective

3. what to do to achieve "objective" state in #2

For #2, if you are looking at whole of humanity, you need to think philosophically/mathematically.. or in simpler terms "truth" wise...

You can initially decide a perfect or close to perfect desired state and then current state and then can see how close you can go depending upon current state.... and by when??



But if you don't set an overall objective, things will remain confusing, arbitrary....
You can have any kind of killings, in any number and the one who kill is as right as the one who got killed....

What is it that we want? Just no killing? for how long? or something more than that? say something that lets ideas/truths evolve without killing or with little killings and your human rights etc?



Once we know what we want, we can think what is stopping us from what we want and waht can take use there..


hmm, i know everybody knows it, we do it daily in one way or other.... but sometimes loud thinking makes you feel, you are part of the system (or part of problem)..

Masadi: You are the one who as memorized the Great White Father Mills Bible. So, I think the honor of being an Uncle Tom goes to you.

tahmed writes "So the best you can do is hide behind cliches about exceptions proving the rule..."

Mian sahib, you were using exceptional (though barbarically arrived at) cases to prove the rule, while ignoring the exceptional factors in those cases as well. In other words you were forcing a conclusion that leaves out the vast majority of cases while cherry picking to prove a point dishonestly.

Nevertheless my worst is still more valid than you best because you are the ideal type Uncle Tom, a standard by which the lesser uncle toms (like Sohail) measure themselves. As our friend HP has stated, if Sohail be a jerk, you be an Uber Jerk.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

#85 masadi: So the best you can do is hide behind cliches about exceptions proving the rule. That is fine if it makes you happy. After all, who am I to differ with the Great Economist Masadi.

I suggest you now write "Das Population" to explain your Human Reproduction Theory of Economic Development. You could even have a great slogan:

Workers of the World Unite..In Bed!!

#75 Posted by drsohail
“one other criterion is the respect for human rights....some countries like canada and norway and newzealand have international ratings of 80s and 90s while most muslim countries like saudi arabia have in their 20s and 30s.�

This is really an intelligent and thought provoking comparison. Little bit uncle tom-ish but that is okay.

Making distinctions is an elementary principle of reasoning. Can someone find any distinctions between Canada, Norway, New Zealand and Saudi Arabia? A naïve question after the learned Doctor made such an intelligent observation.

Saudi Arabia is still a tribal society. Canada never saw a tribal or even a developed feudal society. The indigenous tribes living in Canada, who had some autonomy were systematically killed, deprived of lands and political rights by the Western Settlers who now own Canada and New Zealand. Norway is technically still a monarchy and the English Queen rules both Canada and New Zealand so we can say that comparison has some legitimacy. Saudi Arabia is a kingdom after all.

The Natives Americans were not accepted as the US citizens until the early 20th century. In some US states they did not even have the right to vote until the 1940s. When the natives were declared citizens in Canada? The learned Doctor can possibly enlighten us on that rating too.

But let us see the recent history. Canada, New Zealand, and Norway supported the US attack on a sovereign country Iraq resulting in over 500,000 death and displacement of millions. Many deaths occurred due to indiscriminate bombing in the civilian areas. How many countries Saudi Arabia has attacked in the last fifty years? So while we celebrate the International rating of Canada, New Zealand, Norway and their patron saint US of A, Can we find International rating of Iraq which is still controlled by the US armies? Btw, who should get credit for massacres and bombing of Civilians areas, crimes in Abu Gharaib and slaughter in Fulluja? I guess ten years from now the learned Doctor would gladly quote us dismal international rating Iraq of 2005 compared to Canada of 2005. The problem is Canada and other western countries are guardians of human rights in their own countries-gitmo, patriot act, denial of Habeas corpus in the US notwithstanding- but they really have fun with poor brown, black and yellow people throughout the world.

If the moral support was not enough, Canada and Norway have sent forces to Afghanistan and are culpable in daily deaths of Afghan civilians by US bombers. How many countries have Saudi Arabia Air force bombing the heck out of the civilians?

Can someone find the international rating of human rights in countries under the Western occupation? Did Canadian army perform some peaceful duties in Vietnam? Any ratings from there by any chance?

What a jerk!

Of course, Pinku bhai. You play an important role. (Thumbs up ikon here :) )

--------------------

khurram

Let me share with you something I found interesting. It's a jew writing about ancient Jews:

"Most important of all, Jews did not worship other people's divinities. Again, I do not mean to deny the known exceptions: a Jew here who left an inscription of gratitude in an Egyptian temple of the Greek god Pan, a Jew there who indulged his personal ambition and abandoned Jewish life altogether. I do mean, however, to stress that Jews by and large refused to take part in any ceremony or celebration that smacked of idol-worship; this was known, this was resented, but this too was recognized by Roman law. When the Emperors claimed to be divine and demanded that people worship them, everyone knew that an exception had to be made for the Jews and one was made. No equivalent was available to gentile Christians."

How does one approach such a behavior. Is this acceptable to drsohail? Does it have any unwelcome consequences in his view? If not, then what might make this unwelcome, unhealthy?

Hopefully, we will investigate these issues without anyone feeling pressured, because I love the way it is unfolding in a friendly cooperative spirit. Cheers.

Sohail: Keep the chai brewin and the gulab jaman stewin.....

Have a nice day,
TNI Masadi

Khurram writes "Masadi is right when he condemns you for 'stereotypical condemnation of groups' ...."

Thank you kindly,

TNI Masadi

tahmed writes "PS: btw, learned professor, despite over a half century of strong US military presence in Japan, that nation is the world leader in robotics and green technologies..."

Yeah doesn't that tell you something? That if you want to develop you have to let the US rape you and occupy you and even that as an exception and not the rule because of geo-strategic importance of the "sleeping giant" next doors that the US wants to keep an eye on. In many ways South Korea is the same story. Pointing to exceptions to generalize into a rule ignoring the vast majority of cases only befits a dimwit like you who in order to justify his theological belief in the White man's church provides such bullshit examples....

Have a nice day and gear up for you judgment,...it is nigh

TNI Masadi

#82 Posted by KaalChakra on
ok kal bhai,

I am not that intolerant a troll, they are most welcome, i will do my part..:-)


hope what I said (or will say) will give readers a good (or bad) base to understand what will follow...

#80 Posted by KaalChakra,

Please note that I have not advocated tolerance of coercion.

thanks pinku bhai.

The advantage of listening to what khurram and drsohail have to say is that both have very well developed, very well thought-out perspectives of their own, quite different from yours (with which I have no problem).

So listening to their discussion is very instructive for all of us. I am hoping they will continue to clarify their positions, to the benefit of us all, just as you should and will share your own equally interesting perspective. Cheers.

#80 Posted by KaalChakra on

Unfortunately, I am the troll on duty..
[[
Does tolerance necessitate accepting the equal validity of intolerance? Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?
]]



Part-1

Kaal, as i said earlier you need "mind" to decide these things? And mind works only on "reason" and reason works only on "truths"..

If anybody really want to understand what you asked, it has to fit in the framework of this truth-value system.

Part-2
The second part of the puzzle is that truths are truths, they are big or small as per your objective or how they help in it. Otherwise they are just truths (infinite but each so difficult to find and define). The only grand objective we can set for whole humanity is "searching, living and enjoying truths" and keeping that environment alive.

Part-3
Answer to your question is..

The intolerance of intolerance of "truth" can be considered as tolerance if it helps in objective defined in part-2.
If you define some absurd objectve in part-2 then you can use any combination of "tolernace" and "intolerance" to create your statement and consider it to be ok.



I know people won't like my constant interruption, but then I am not generally that tolerant..

This is indeed turning out to be a great discussion between drshohai and khurram bhai.

Does tolerance necessitate accepting the equal validity of intolerance? Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?

Would love to hear if drsohail agrees that he dehumanizes people and stereotypes them.

#78 Posted by pinku on
And for truths there is no such question as "whether they are equal or not"

#77 Posted by khurram on
Dear Khuraam and Sohail

sorry for disturbing you for a while, but don't fight with me if you know my self-serving rights

[[
To say that all beliefs are equally valid is ALSO a belief. You are being self-contradictory when you privilege it over and above the belief that all beliefs are NOT equally valid.
]]

Talking about beliefs and handling them as truths is quite meaningless and tend to be stupid. If you guys are going in this direction, you can remain in your big or small circle (depending upon how much you discuss) without understanding anything significant.

Talk in terms of truths, if it seems too difficult to understand what is truth or when something is truth than think about that.

A belief can be anything, true/false, benign/malign, extraordinarily dangerous, amazingly ridiculous or whatever. So talking about their equallity or inequality means nothing. You have to find truths in those beliefs to compare them. There are infinite truths in this world, with infinite contexts, but none can invalidate other. But this is true only for something which is as good as truth, not for "beliefs".

So extract your truths out of your beliefs and compare them to analyze if they are equal, or which one is better. They may have different set of truths, some truths may not affect us at all. For example if a belief says "water molecule is made up of 10 quarks and not H2O, while stating quark correctkly" it is in conflict with a truth but the conflict doesn't seem that bad.

Technically, it is better to let people defend some ideas (if they want to) and give them full freedom to give arguments if they feel they can.

The biggest problem with religions is "talking God", because here going by the definition of God, you are not left in a position to do anything if the fake talking God says something bad. And the first thing to be given for defense is "do you think your book has word of God and it is God who said all those tings"?

If you are not talking about religions than "belief" mean nothing. I believe is as good as saying, i think so do you think I am wrong, give me reason?

That is where you should start.

Anyway, you guys are more aware so you know what to discuss, much better then me!

RE: #75drsohail,

You are confusing respecting other people's RIGHT to hold and practice a belief with considering other people's belief as equally valid. Catholics may consider other people's beliefs to be wrong. But they will not interfere with their right to hold and practice their beliefs.
If Catholics consider homosexuality as sinful, then they are not engaging in coercion. Anyone who disagrees with them is free to leave and practice his beliefs.

To say that all beliefs are equally valid is ALSO a belief. You are being self-contradictory when you privilege it over and above the belief that all beliefs are NOT equally valid.

What I find disturbing is your intolerance for those people who disagree with YOUR truth (i.e. all truths are equally valid). In article after article you have tried to link those who disagree with this truth to all the violence and evil in this world. You dehumanize them by calling them 'tribals' and paint them as barbaric. This includes billions of people who may disagree with others but have no interest in coercion.

Masadi is right when he condemns you for 'stereotypical condemnation of groups' .

#75 Posted by drsohail on
[[
ps...i hope kalchakra and pinku are happy to read our dialogue.
]]

I hope you are happy reading mine and I will be happy till you don't give up reason and don't give in to religion...

tools to explore truths may be many, but your (or mine, or individual's) mind is the only tool to understand truth and reason is the only language, to help you or me (our mind) do it

rest is fine as weather is..

Re: # 73
dear khurram...let me add one more thing from a social perspective.
in my opinion in every culture there is a wide range of traditions. i see them on a spectrum...

from humanistic on the left.....to liberal in the middle...to fundamentalistic on the right
we can see that range in religious as well as political spheres.
since i live in canada, i will give you canadian examples
in the christian world

unitarian church is most humanistic and welcomes people's nontraditional ideas and lifestyles and does not use any coercion to change people

united church is in the middle and quite liberal

catholic church is on the right and fundamentalistic. for example they consider divorce as sin. i have catholic friends who were ex-communicated when they divorced their abusive spouses. one of my patients who was catholic suffered from depression. finally he committed suicide. his family was shunned by church and the priest refused to offer his funeral services.

similarly in the political arena we have three parties

NDP...a socialist party is most humanistic and welcome people who are free thinkers and fight for the rights of disabled and underprivileged

Liberal party is in the middle

Conservatives are the right wing who do not accept gay marriages and are less sympathetic to homeless people, single mothers and other underprivileged groups

Luckily canadian constitution is secular and humanistic so fundamentalist religious and political groups can not use their force of coercion.

one other criterion is the respect for human rights....some countries like canada and norway and newzealand have international ratings of 80s and 90s while most muslim countries like saudi arabia have in their 20s and 30s.

these are just my opinions. you are more than welcome to disagree. sincerely sohail
ps...i hope kalchakra and pinku are happy to read our dialogue.

#68 Prof Masadi: So, it is the General Petraeus and other US officials who have prevented the residents of Lal Kurti, Rawalpindi and Gowalmandi, Lahore from advancing science and registering patents. Hmmmmmm...I see.

er...sorry..but if you provided this data in Lal Kurti, you would hear a yell of "pagal-ee-oye" to announce your presence whereever you went.

PS: btw, learned professor, despite over a half century of strong US military presence in Japan, that nation is the world leader in robotics and green technologies. What does that do to your Human Reproduction Theory of Economic Development.

PPS: I eagerly await the time series data I requested to back your Theory of Lynching as a Tool of Capitalism, and also evidence to support your Theory that the Reverend Wright is Right.

Re: #63, drsohail,

Let me try to understand your position.

a) There are multiple truths
b) ALL truths must be respected as equally valid
c) Any attempt to privilege ONE truth over all others leads to coercion.

Does this correctly state your position? Please make any corrections, if necessary.

(btw, that was a cheap shot against the Pope. The pope has no army. People follow him voluntarily and can leave him if they don't want to follow him anymore.)

nice article..

Have a nice day and keep the chai warm, is the offer still open? Do you serve crumpets or muffins? Gulab jaman's or pound cake?


TNI Masadi

sohail writes "But when humans start believing that their TRUTH is THE TRUTH and not A TRUTH, then they have a tendency to impose it on others.....When ideas turn into ideologies then humans start walking on a slippery slope."

Like you are imposing your BS on us. Let us hear you talk against capitalist ideology, you hypocrite. An ideology that has as its basis human dignity and justice is much preferred to one that uses hypocrisy for profit maximization and human deprivation, as is the current ideology of the West, perfected in the USA and followed in more or less fashion among the previous colonizers and barbaric settlers.

Quit writing and imposing your white man worshiping shrinkery.

CNN says :" At 90, Billy Graham remains 'America's pastor'

I say YOU LIE! The Rev Wright is America's pastor ever since he said those words: God damn America

The CNN news report continues saying:

CHARLOTTE, North Carolina (CNN) -- Franklin Graham was stumped. He had no idea what to give his father, evangelist Billy Graham, for his 90th birthday Friday.
The Rev. Billy Graham speaks at a crusade in Kansas City, Missouri, in October 2004.

The Rev. Billy Graham speaks at a crusade in Kansas City, Missouri, in October 2004.

------

Hey Franklin you moron, give him this for his 90th birthday:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNBzU6iryo&feature=related

Tahmed asks :"but, learned professor, when were the lal kurtis (redcoats) last seen hanging out in Lal Kurti..."

Was it last week that Gen Patraeus and Richard Boucher visited Islamabad? Happy now you miserable buffoon?

TNI Masadi

Kaal writes "masadi, that wasn't meant to stop your dialogues with others..."

Let me apologize then for misunderstanding and for a not called for response. Thank you and please overlook

TNI masadi

should have been:
So instead of accepting anything as truth, it is freedom of saying "no i don't think so" which is more important.

#63 Posted by drsohail on
Perfect summary..
ideologies themselves can be self propagatory but if you add "God" to it, they become resistant to any change and that is when anything bad in psycholoy or ideology becomes lethal.

[[

I believe we need to respect other people's truth individually and collectively even when we disagree with them.

]]

This is wrong, truths are never that conflicting, even when we are not close to truths they are not that conflicting. It is only when as a society we start accpeting anything as truth that people in general lose sense of what is truth and what is not. If group ideologies are pursued by large groups and actions keep emnating out of them, the concept of "respect" and expecting good out of it is wishful thinking and wrong.

Exmple is, it is of no use today to cry over how many people were killed by any ideology if all we suggest is that we should have respected it. There is something that has to be corrective and should come out of society itself, without much effort. The simplest is to not to accept things which are not truths peacefully.Just say that forme it is not truth. Don't accept it. That will not only reduce conflict in future, it gives the best democratic infrastructure to keep things close to truth. So instead of accepting truth, it is freedom of saying "no i don't think so" which is more important.

If you know something is wrong or not true, the day you know it for sure, you should stop supporting that "false truth", not just religious, even if it is scientific. Only reason for supporting an idea should be that your mind still has some valid argument for it and is not convinced, not ego, not mere respect for somebody else's ego.

Not suporting an idea can still be respectful, at least shouldn't try to harm those who support it, till they try to harm you. You don't need convoluted ideas of respect to keep confusion over things for ever or to help spread confusion and chaos.

If Islam was able to digest "simple" "NO"s, you wouldn't have seen somany people feeling ofended by it and so much against it,doesn't matter what it says, whowould have cared???

Re: # 55
dear kaalchakra...your letter inspired me to write another letter to khurram...thanks...sohail

Re: # 43
dear khurram. After having endless passionate dialogues with followers of different religious, spiritual and secular traditions I have come to the conclusion that
THERE ARE AS MANY TRUTHS AS HUMAN BEINGS AND AS MANY REALITIES AS PAIRS OF EYES.
But when humans start believing that their TRUTH is THE TRUTH and not A TRUTH, then they have a tendency to impose it on others. If those people gain political or religious power by becoming leaders of political organizations and religious institutions then they can use COERCION.
If the system is democratic and humanistic then their COERCION is time limited and controlled but if the system is autocratic and authoritarian then the COERCION and CONTROL can be long term and intense. For exampple The Pope of Catholic Church have power over one billion people and his special religious powers makes him immune to any democratic process. He even rationalizes his anti-democratic and anti-humanistic policies through Church and Scriptures and God. Similarly Castro in Cuba had long term political power because of Communist system. When ideas turn into ideologies then humans start walking on a slippery slope.
I believe we need to respect other people's truth individually and collectively even when we disagree with them. That is why i respect your ideas and can have respectful dialogue with you that is hard to do with some other people and this why Kaal Chakra offered you a compliment. all the best...sohail

Re: # 61
dear barristerake...thank you for connecting the dots. i just read some literature on kharijis and wrote an article
militant muslims...the new kharijites
if you are interested you can write to me on
welcome@drsohail.com
and i will send it to you...sincerely sohail

Shrink, OBL started as a arab nationalist and ended up as a global jehadist prorably because he lost all options.

Al-Qaeda was actually a booklet containing the names of all arabs with their names and address who were fighting in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

The psyche of Al-Qaeda is to kill – they are Kharijis and nothing more or less..

Learned Professor Masadi #49: So - it was the redcoats who blocked your theory in Raja Bazar, Rawalpindi!! I should have guessed.

but, learned professor, when were the lal kurtis (redcoats) last seen hanging out in Lal Kurti, Rawalpindi?? or in Raja Bazar, Rawalpindi?? Was it before or after the last Lynching as a Tool of Capitalism took place?? Why doesnt your theory work there even after the block has been taken away??? And what happened to Siam (where lal kurtis never blocked your theory)

2. How they force you to do - their means of force/coercion

while doing this you need to define coercion and give degree or category of coercion as well..

May be, add a few more things (no coercion for the time being):

For each of the categories you listed check
1. What they force you to do - their objective

2. How they force you to do - their means of force/coercion

3. How good or bad are their objectives

4. how good or bad are their means

+++
Imagine you are in-charge/administrator and think which one can be avoided:

1. just by better knowledge/ideas among your workers (people)

2. by ideas and some framework (like processes/infrastructure: what governments do)


obviously think about whole of humanity ...

there are more subtle issues, which can be discussed later. One of them is in which cases does this force/coercion becomes self propagatory (more for psychologist, he should analyze it here)

Once we are done we can step back and do a round of chorus or antakhshari depending on results..

====

"for discussion sake if we divide any community in three groups
...religious fundamentalists
...religious humanists...believers
...secular humanists...non-believers"

- secular fundamentalists.

masadi, that wasn't meant to stop your dialogues with others. Khurram did seem to be putting some interesting questions before drsohail and drsohail is likely to have some interesting answers as well. Perhaps you and others can contribute too.

Cheers.

Kaal writes "khurram and drsohail, you have a very good discussion going. If possible, continue that discussion, please. Thanks."

And you kindly take a hike and take your tendency to try to prevent others from speaking their mind with you, you miserable a-hole...

Have a nice day

khurram and drsohail, you have a very good discussion going. If possible, continue that discussion, please. Thanks.

Have a nice day and take it easy
TNI Masadi


....yes 91101 happened to us and so did slavery happen to us...(Rev Wright)

Here is a fuller version of that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNBzU6iryo&feature=related

Fantas tic, a truly religious experience!

Here watch it once again

This Rev is good, he has power in his voice....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=617eK2XIaLk

No,no,no,no...God damn America...it's in the Bible!

As Rev Wright Rightly said, "It is in the Bible (because of the killing of innocents)......God damn(s) America...

In #47 read "that is how lynching is politely practices in your capitalist society of total the United States of KKK A, as the Right Rev Wright, Rightly Remarked....."

as

that is how lynching is politely practiced in your capitalist society of today the United States of KKKA, as the Right Rev Wright, Rightly Remarked Rigorously.....

tahmed writes "why Gowalmandi, Lahore and Raja Bazar, Rawalpindi, despite their high population density are so lacking in patents..."

Apparently because while you were suffering from amnesia they went through a totally different history through colonization and the strengthening of feudalism by your capitalist friends from the white man's land. While the white man practiced land clearing through genocide to settle in areas previously occupied, he forced through colonization and its effects an unnatural haphazard mega city phenomenon, where the local bourgeoisie were deliberately kept behind and the feudals were strengthened and any attempts at alternative "fast track" state sponsored industrial development were choked by having the military hang the popular leaders....

Have a nice day and get an education you worshiper of the white man's sh**.

#47 Professor Masadi: With the definition of "lynching" implied in your post, you are revolutionizing the english language as well as economic theory. Given the multi-disciplinary nature of the Masadi Revolutions, doesnt this incredible brain of yours start overheating.

PS: I still patiently await the time series data on lynchings in the US to support your theories of capitalism, and your explanation of why Gowalmandi, Lahore and Raja Bazar, Rawalpindi, despite their high population density are so lacking in patents.

tahemd writes "the Human Reproduction Theory of Economic Growth, and Lynching as a Tool of Capitalism..."

Idiots like you when stumped can only obfuscate. Urbanization, division of labor and specialization all depend on demography, whatever you might want to call it, capitalism and modern social arrangements weren't delivered to the USA by Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Regarding lynching, check the mortality rates of young black men compared to young white men, that is how lynching is politely practices in your capitalist society of total the United States of KKK A, as the Right Rev Wright, Rightly Remarked........

Professor Masadi #44 writes "Rev Wright has it RIGHT"

Good. I shall add this to the list of Masadi Hypotheses for which you are going to provide supporting data. Unless you tell me that hazrat jibraeel relayed this message directly from God to you and so requires no data.

btw, you have not yet been able to provide data (ranting is not data) for your earlier two hypotheses (the Human Reproduction Theory of Economic Growth, and Lynching as a Tool of Capitalism).

#27 Posted by HP on November 6, 2008 2:26:46 pm
{"Khan Bahadar Salim Rajput of Jaipur, Rajhastan,
...But my little studies tell me that violence is part of human psychology/nature and cannot be restricted to ideologies alone.

90% of the violence is personal in nature only ten percent is ideology related. ..What religion or ideology was Alexander promoting but he certainly promoted violence through many lands!...Hitler was not ideology driven, US and the Brits were not ideology driven in both first and second world wars. Their political and nationalist ambitions were behind all those murders. I mean what ideology sent the US to Iraq or even Vietnam?"}

HP Sain,
You make some good points - e.g. Alexander's "ideology." You are also off the mark when you list Hitler, Brits in WWI and WWII, and US in Vietnam and Iraq as examples of violence without ideology.
I agree with you that violence is inherently human. I think that we humans have "evolved," or rather "become crafty," in disguising our violence as part of some higher, nobler, and hence more justifiable, ideology. Thus, violence in the name of God, King, and Country. Violence inthe name of Catholicism. Jihad to preserve and protect Islam. Crusade to wrest the Holy Places from the infidels. Carpet bombing to make the world safe for democracy and exploding the atom bomb for humanity. I thing that we all understand what's been goin on.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re #42,
"how do you know that i do not have passionate dialogues with atheist fundamentalists"
because you have not shared any of that at chowk. And because ur articles seem to imply a necessary connection between religion and coercion.


"do you think belief in a Personal God and Religion and Prophets and Scriptures and Life after death adds to human freedom and growth and evolution"

Any belief will promote freedom if,
1) it is not imposed on others.
2) encourages resistance to coercion by others

Do you think it is possible for belief in "Personal God and Religion and Prophets and Scriptures and Life after death" to fulfill these requirements?

Re: # 41
dear khurram...as i said before i like your creative thinking. I think there are more similarities than differences in our philosophy.
how do you know that i do not have passionate dialogues with atheist fundamentalists. I criticzed Communist states who had atheist fundamentalist attitude.
you are well aware that i am against fundamentalist ideology as well as fundamentalist personality. do you think belief in a Personal God and Religion and Prophets and Scriptures and Life after death adds to human freedom and growth and evolution?
sincerely sohail

Re #34, drsohail,
"for discussion sake if we divide any community in three groups
...religious fundamentalists
...religious humanists...believers
...secular humanists...non-believers"

Fo sake of completion why not add a fourth category - secular fundamentalists. Then you can see that the real issue is not belief vs non-belief but freedom vs coercion.
You have been fighting the wrong battle!

"dear khurram...even when i disagree with you, i love the way your mind thinks. you are a sincere seeker of truth."

Have to agree with that, and take this opportunity to join in congratulating khurram.

In fact, there are two individuals with very similar nicks (khurram and khuram?). One of them has always been quite impressive by his distinct readiness to both go beyond narrow interests and question taken-for-granted given assumptions (while still remaining a believer).

Kamath sahib,

The only way to deal with them is to ignore them altogether.

Regards

Re: # 36 What do you say Doc - Sohail:

Do you think some of writers and readers of Chowk are mildly sociopathic individuals ? They seem to think verbal abuse and other filthy language as legitimate tools of exchange. How can you deal with these guys?

Kamath

Re: # 27
Dear HP...Don't you think human beings, for thousands of years, are fighting tribal wars based on tribal mentality ...US / THEM. Over the centuries the nature and definition of tribes has changed
In the last century
In Middle East Muslims were fighting with jews
In India Pakistan border Muslims were fighting with Hindus
In the last decade Osama is fighting Bush...one calls it a crusade and the othe jihad. Bush said, ' if you are not with us you are against us" The difference is that in the past in tribal wars only a few hundred humans died with arrows and guns, now America can wipe out the whole humanity with nuclear weapons and commit collective suicide.
For me nationalism, communism and religion are all ideologies. thank you for sharing your thoughts.
sincerely sohail

Re: # 10
masadi sahib...you wrote.."Sohail sits on the editorial board of chowk...." I shared with you before that i have nothing to do with editorial board so you do not need to be angry with me if they do not publish your articles.....i never wrote anything disrespectful about you and i request the same...is that asking too much? just relax....sohail

Professor Masadi #31: I assume without checking that this link you provide is of that half-brained lunatic trying to make himself important by yelling abuse at the US.

I am not surprised that you applaud him.

Re: # 26
dear khurram...even when i disagree with you, i love the way your mind thinks. you are a sincere seeker of truth.
for discussion sake if we divide any community in three groups
...religious fundamentalists
...religious humanists...believers
...secular humanists...non-believers
i think religious humanists and secular humanists can work together if they can agree on
...freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion
and
...respecting human rights especially of women, children and minorities and agreeing that all citizens are equal in the eyes of the law. thanks for your comments...sohail

: ) Great job Rev! Obama disowned you but masadi says you speak the truth!

While watching it forget about Alan Colmes concentrate on the words of the Rev...

Here is a video especially posted for tahmed and the shrink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=617eK2XIaLk

Shortly before his untimely death, former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook told the House of Commons that "Al Qaeda" is not really a terrorist group but a database of international mujaheddin and arms smugglers used by the CIA and Saudis to funnel guerrillas, arms, and money into Soviet-occupied Afghanistan. (Wayne Madsen Report}

More at:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BUN2005 1120&articleId=1291

I've already said so much, what more can I say to DOCKter So-Hail?

Sohail writes "
there is also a basic difference in the attitude of ballots and bullets"

Of course there is the bullets are monopolized by the so called proponents of secular constitutions, while the ballot is pushed as opium and slogan while supporting military dictators, by those same "secular" constitutionalists...

Have a nice day you goddamned illiterate buffoon,

TNI masadi

Sohail writes "...a theocratic ideology in which God calls the shots and sends the manual through the prophets that men and women are supposed to follow (i wonder why there were no female prophets from the middle east)..."

Shrink man do you even know what "ideology" means, you illiterate ignoramus. As to your other BS about "female prophets", only a "god" on Prozac (that you prescribed) would send a female prophet into patriarchal societies....


Have a nice day and keep the chai warm,

TNI Masadi

Khan Bahadar Salim Rajput of Jaipur, Rajhastan,

I really have no idea what Dr. Sohail expects me to say. He always seemed to be psyched to do the psycho-analysis which obviously does not interest me at all. But my little studies tell me that violence is part of human psychology/nature and cannot be restricted to ideologies alone.

90% of the violence is personal in nature only ten percent is ideology related. Now we can equate ideology with politics but that relationship was established in the last 300 or so years. Before that it was solely the political ambitions that drove many to conquer the world. What religion or ideology was Alexander promoting but he certainly promoted violence through many lands!

Hitler was not ideology driven, US and the Brits were not ideology driven in both first and second world wars. Their political and nationalist ambitions were behind all those murders. I mean what ideology sent the US to Iraq or even Vietnam?

The childish attempts to blame all murders, child and women abuse on ideologies or religions are supported only by psychologically mixed up minds.

drsohail #24,
"in my opinion there is a fundamental difference between

...a theocratic ideology in which God calls the shots and sends the manual through the prophets that men and women are supposed to follow (i wonder why there were no female prophets from the middle east)

...a secular philosophy in which human beings collectively decide the rules they are going to follow through their constitutions"

What do you think about...
a theocratic ideology in which God calls the shots and sends the manual through the prophets that men and women are supposed to follow
and then,
human beings collectively decide how to interpret His message.

drsohail #24 {"it is interesting how ideologies have been used...
whether communism from the left or islam from the right
to bring violent revolutions...with no regard to basic human rights especially of women, children and mintorities
what do you think?
sincerely sohail
ps...we will see what HP says "}

Dr. Sohail Sahib,
Yes, I agree with your analogy of so-called "Islamic" extremists to the Communist comrades of yesteryear. One could extend this to the right-wing nuts in the US like Timothy McVeigh and his cohorts. They love their ideology and their people so much that they will kill them if necessary to make them see the "truth."

Re: # 21
dear salim chauhan...thank you for your thoughtful comments.

in my opinion there is a fundamental difference between

...a theocratic ideology in which God calls the shots and sends the manual through the prophets that men and women are supposed to follow (i wonder why there were no female prophets from the middle east)

...a secular philosophy in which human beings collectively decide the rules they are going to follow through their constitutions

there is also a basic difference in the attitude of ballots and bullets

when religious ideology joins the violent attitude...in which the ends justify the means we have tragic results.

it is interesting how ideologies have been used...
whether communism from the left or islam from the right
to bring violent revolutions...with no regard to basic human rights especially of women, children and mintorities
what do you think?
sincerely sohail
ps...we will see what HP says

#22 Posted by HP on November 6, 2008 12:55:25 pm

{"Connecting the dots, as I understand it, is meant for looking at the circumstantial evidence or digging through the data, and not creating equations or equivalences or verifying the differences!"}

HP Sahib,
I will let you pin the tail on the donkey. :)

Connecting the dots, as I understand it, is meant for looking at the circumstantial evidence or digging through the data, and not creating equations or equivalences or verifying the differences!

Sohail Sahib,
You have written a very brief summary regarding the founding of Al Kayda and listed its chronological ancestry. What you haven't done is to clearly state what they would do if they were to (God forbid) succeed in their mission.

I agree with Saima in #4 that merely mentioning Al Ghazali or Maududi or Syed Qutub does not necessarily or conclusively connect the fatal dots. I have every reason to believe that the philosophy and tactics of Al Kayda or even the more "moderate" Tally Ban would be categorically castigated by the Muslim intellectuals of the past.

We have seen Tally Ban rule in Afghanistan in the late 90s with its suppression of women, intimidation of men, and demeaning of Islam. This is no religious issue, it's a simple law and order issue and these miscreants need to be arrested, tried, and punished like the common criminals they are.

Re: # 19
dear faisal...thank you for your honest comments. in my opinion i was connecting the dots....understanding the psyche of al-qaeda...helped me see the differences between
...religious people...
...religious fundamentalists
...militant religious fundamentalists
who are not only killing non-Muslims but also innocent civilian Muslims
in such people...ideology...personality...politics...come together.
guerrilla war teactics is new. one of my earlier essays on chowk was
psychology of suicide bombers
you might be interested
all the best...sohail

reads like a summary of the last 5 years of newspaper articles on "the base" where are your own thoughts Khalid?

Re: # 17; majumdar

desi men are so easily excited! ... may be 'lack of opportunities'! combined with vivid imaginations ... I saw the vid posted on UP ... there was hardly anything there to be honest

Cheema sahib,

these are not ugly rumours

By rumours I was referring to the canard that YRG had fondled Ms Rehman in full public view with the latter's consent.

Regards

Re: # 15; majumdar

these are not ugly rumours ... i recently presented Ibn-e-maja's reference (hadith quoted by ayesha ... who else!) advocating this ... allegedly the full script was not available since it was eaten by a goat!! ... with "editors" like that, who needs enemies! ... LOL!!

SR sahib,

Maybe YRG and Sherry Rehman shud do what Al Azhar is suggesting and that too publicly to remove all ugly rumours.

Regards

Suckling co-workers' breasts and drinking urine

Voices of sanity from the Muslim world (read article)

http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=8043

...S R

Dr. Sohail: There is no "Psyche of Al-Qaeda" discussed in this article. And the rest is an otiose potpourri of cliches bandied by the army of terrorist experts that was spontaneously created on 9/11 (this being the same process of creation that blessed us all with Masadi).

This article therefore represents conduct unbecoming the psychologist and the gentleman that you are.

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brother masadi,

r u saying that sohail should reference your way of referencing when he references?

Brother, how r things in lahore? kaka is hearing, people r losing jobs.. do you still have yours or you didn't have to begin with?

Sohail sits on the editorial board of chowk and shameless copies my writing style:

Note this "(Ref 1)"

And then note how I quote my references. I challenge him to produce even one of his articles written before my blogs of this last month where he has used such referencing....and then the damn fool has the audacity to block my articles

This is a great article with references and quotes. Apart from Lenin's warfare, I also learned about the fight between good and bad people in Pakistan and that Sohail wishes that the good guys win. Great article overall.

Sohail is a painDu psychologist offering mid-wife homilies for an audience that he confuses for his pinD.

'The Psyche of Al-Qaeda'???

'world consciousness'???

What's next? The mindset of kaka's chappal? The smile of a nation?

Yes, it is shallow. The article does not even address the psyche part of the story. Talking about Salafi, Has the learned author ever had a chance to read about Lutheran beliefs?

Most of the previous millennium's Islamic sects are derived from the several sects of Christianity. Salafi, Wahabi etc. can be traced to Christian revivalist movements.

Syed Qutb and later Maudoodi mostly copied from Christian Science monitors publications after the missionaries started working in India and in the ME. The RSS and its publications are copied from Christian Science monitors publications too.

These extremist and purification sects were part of the British game to control, divide and rule. These groups still are part of the ruling alliances in several countries.

Now they will ban me for 24 hours and forget about my account for 48 more....

Saima writes "I am a little surprised at this shallow analysis."

No surprises here, we have come to expect "shallow analysis" from Sohail the shrink (did I forfeit my cup of tea and free palm reading?) and gill the plumber not to mention the fact that psychology as a field is devoid of any substance, it has not original material whatsoever, it depends on biology or sociology to explain what little it can muster, before the shrinks turn that into a prescription for Prozac and hook the nation to it....

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

I am a little surprised at this shallow analysis.
To start with the comment about Al-Ghazali is a little bit unfair. He has been heralded as the anti-rationality fellow, however the process by which he concluded this was very rational. He did not want to divest the spiritual from the scientific. Maybe that wasn't such a bad idea because un checked 'scientific progress' has led to immense plunder of the planet's resources. There is a lot more to this story than what has been covered in these brief paragraphs. There are questions here that haven't been asked e.g.,
Syed Qutb reads no different than many western writers such as Henry David Thoreau who were critical of the mindlessness of industrialization. Considering all of the above, it does not explain the violence of Al-Qaeda---violence is the 24million dollar question.

reprinted here on great public demand.
...................................

Last Entry:

In the diary of the Psycho from chukk:420, mauza Harrapa

===========================================================

My own private Pheedaho

Epilogue


.....and now I can sense that they are mumbling & whispering about removing the life-support system from me. It is not that I am in coma all the time, it is just that they cannot tell that, and I do not tell them. I observe, I listen, but I cannot respond...,but only for sporadic minutes ,when no one is around. The prescriptions & proscriptions of the West & the East did me in!

It`ll be anyday, anytime,....sooner than later.


.........ahh!and memories! , in a rewind loop, now in focus, now in a blurr & blob from the deep deep recesses of my mind, never ever abandon me, never let go. It sure helps to be a shrink to interpret and bring into focus these repressed memories....

...the joyful days and nights when I was called Pheeda by everyone. Snot, rat-tail-like, peeking in and out of my dust-laden & dirt-ridden nostrils and occasionally wiped-ff by my left sleeve while looking askance at every passing elder who would shove-kick-slap-hit me--just for the heck of it . At least they recognised me that I existed. I belonged!


Here in US nobody gives a damn no matter how hard you try to prove that now you are one of them.So Oye Pheeday or Pheeda-ho it was, sometimes Freeda-ho, sometimes Freeday-ho but none seemed different. The landowners around Harrapa were too preoccupied & disinterested to worry about my heritage or what I truly aspired to be. I was simply a body, a serf, a kummee`s son, destined to be a kummee himself when old enough to plow their fields.

But I had ambitions. Secret designs of my own. Intrepid & Intrigue was important to overcome the caste, and the color barrier. I wanted to be like the Jat jagirdars son.., with the plastic clip-on tie & back-pack,..whose forefathers helped the british to rule over us. ``Salvation is in slavery``! this became my banner & beacon....to enable me to cross over to the other side & someday have my own private slaves.

`` I must redesign my heritage`` I heard myself say to myself aloud oneday. It must be sculpted by me to suit the occasion or event. I decided to interrupt others and correcte them that my name was Fareed. Everyone should take notice, I told them. I am Fareed--not Pheeda-ho. They all did, and shoved-kicked-slapped and ran me out of the chukk # 420 near to the mound-ruins where heritage is preserved. Preserved so well that it generates ample reveues for its progeny even after laying dormant for about 5000 years. The goraas discovered the mounds of the dead and educated the slaves; drilled into them how civilised they once were and how the slaves were once 5000-year civilised & now in the darkages due to their stupid reli.. (well-never mind)

...good that they hounded me out of the Chukk 420 near mauza Harrapa. In the city I became the real me, Fareed! and now diligently pursued the practised the Jaw-resetting language*(*urdu) to such perfection that that I was soon inducted into that inner-sanctum of those who prided themselves to announce themselves as The-Tongued-Ones: (ahle-zubaan)

Years passed and then I discovered that even this heritage is now under suspicion and is no longer respectable. The-Tongued-ones (ahle-zubaans) are being harrassed by those who are now refusing the get their jaws reset. So I decided to look for opportunities to create another new heritage for my nation`s posterior and my own posterity

I decided to emigrate to the fantasy-land of sex,drugs & faith-freedom and opportunity!

Here I learned that my name a big problem for me & the way I pronounce it is even a bigger problem for the immigration folk. They re-named me Freud, ( apt! I chucked then) entered that in the register, and officially I became Archie Freud . Archie is for Arshad , a name I had always liked and was given that as my `christain` name when the immigration guy, fat beet-red face one, insisted that Arshad was too foreign & a jawlocker for him.

Sixty long years seem now like the blink of an eye! Such a Psychiatric I was that, in serving science & humanism, I became a psycho myself and was committed to the proper places many a times during my shining career & gloomy disposition. Some alluded this to the genius in me and such a price is small for those like me to pay to serve humanity and reassert my Insaanyat in ways other than the mundane kind. I sometimes feel that it is my obssessive cynicism to keep a score on my insaanyat index that blew my brainfuse.

Despite all the laurels and dollars , I was still uneasy with this post-modernistic, humanistic heritage of mine. Hell, the kids, no longer kids by the way, were determined to manufacture their own heritage, as muslim, and were going out of the way to refuse to inherit anything at all from the mounds of Moenjo Dero or the hollows of Harrapaa . This really did me in. I mean with all the heritage that I accumulated and now here my own flesh and blood wanted to disinherit all that!

...So When I returned to the area I had left as Chukk 420 I tried to prove & convince the people running the heritage industry, primarily the Jaw-lockers--the Tongued-ones (ahli-Zubaan), but no one was interested anymore.They ahd outslaved me by a single U-turn. They were all trying to become a mirror image of the people from the land of bilk & money.

I learnt that behind my back they sneered at my attempt to speak in the Jawlock-way or the neo-Tongue-Ones way.

They were calling me Dr. Fraud.

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"Pakistan and Afghanistan are the battleground where in the next decade war between violent political Islam, peaceful spiritual Islam and Secular Humanism will be fought...."

Very true.

Now Obama is going to withdraw troops from Iraq and send them to Pakistan !!!