Yes we can, Obama!
Ather Naqvi November 6, 2008
#276 Posted by ahmedmadani on November 14, 2008 7:41:42 am
Generally poor people produce more people as they can not support most so after 5 to 6 children they just loose count as upper waalh ka gift if he gives he must have some plan. World wide govts subsidide more children as poor numbers are big and increasing always. If you look at news from poor area person blasted by Talibs generally he or she is aroung 38 years old, with 6 children and one on way.Generally subsidies are successful 200%. Now benzir card will make sure we have always people who need that card. There is psycological problem is that for some no guilt think people think we responsible for for poverty of poor breeding every 18 months. This similar to a White man from USA even poor white unemployed man is made to feel guilty blacks are poor and there is other problem of notion is poor man is more miserable but has lots of virtues etc. That precludes the sensible way of telling poors to stop poverty programs. Only China country is going to do better as they do not tolerate nonsense. If some body gets extra child they punish man through out life and all govt help is with drawn and kicked of all govt help.China has done best is they even do not pay lip service to democracy etc and that protects them from more foolish people controling wise people by sheer brutes numbers. This trend was started by Indian movies as poverty as virtues. Like all heros are poor and good hearted and all rich people evil. Then it reaches height of stupidity as even dark skin colored gets virtue that dark people may be dark but their heart is more soft and good. They do not think brain is given on head to wear cap to protect from sun. They sing songs like "hum hay kale fir bhi dilwale ( we are coal dark but we are good).
Only all govts can do good if in general they help poor but ask in return to stop producing too many children.Now our country is going get some money from IMF and will will gone in no time back to same people , That is not program. IMF should money and tell pakistan to control exploding population as there is no point in putting water in leaking sea and expect level to rise. This like addiction you are providing beer to person as he is addict to alcohol it does not work. At stroke of indepedence country with 40 million actually it may be only 20 million at start for new cut to size of west pakistan has population of 174 million most feel it is 200 million. So in 60 years it is about 8.5 times. With majority of population in child bearing age this will be exploding up.I just calculated with 20 million base to present 170 million growth rate is 3.65% in 60 years. Now population will more go up as people are betting all medicines developed by white man so we live long. White man has not done this good but he wants we to be miserable. He controls his population and gets samall but allows colored people to multiply but does not want him to come to white countries. So if same trend continues in next 10 years population will reach 242 Million. Generally is world phenemenon when there is strife when people are dieing population goes up even faster. Iran and Iraq in their their recent arab persian race war killed about 1.2 million people does it reduced population growth ? No the both countries made up losses and added excess people. So many iranians just after islamic revolution of Imam Khomaeni population doubled and misery has exploded. Iran govt is so afraid of they defied ethos ( Koran say more you produce allah will be pleased) and they want smaller population and help families to family of reasonable size. When excess population is there anxity leads to illogcal thinking. Some fanatic Persian Nationalist are lamenting while persians are limiting population, Kurds in Mahabad and Arabs in Kuzestan are increasing numbers. That tells even potential rich countries but poor country like iran have to control size.
Nothing is going to succeed as population grows and worst the population growth takes place of people who least afford every where. Poor have got licence and objective condition to be irresponsible. Poor has very high throshould of pain compared to well to do so he is at advantage always. By producing more children he establishes facts on ground. Unfortunately we had good white rulers who could have told us to do right things have just tired and left for their white countries. The had power to to be harsh and whip natives but now nobody is there to improve. English civil service people left leaving us to mercis of Babus and we still Ghulam in our country. Most reasonable people in country do not pay taxes as they feel wrong to waste money. Desi elites feels if my brother gets 5 children that is not his responsibility to help that breeding pair. He does not understand why he should be in business of forced charity when he does not have obligation even to help his stupid relative. This is reason I do not like do gooder civil activists they blackmail with guilt trip on us.But they never tell their clients to that poverty is not virtue, they have doctors dilemma. They want misery so they can lead glamamour life of helping poor. Poors may not need but this askals need to have poor. And for them it is lucrative carriers.
Any way due to overpopulation as worlds elits help so naturally populations do not implode and numbers reduced but they help to increase which explodes in Jihadi wars so they should suffer. Jehidi problem is hard to tackle as once jehidi then you are Jehadi, it has no relation to economics is thing of heart like religion. Jehadi can be bit down but jshadi will wait for jehad and after some time if Jehad does come then he will seach for jehad. As water falls from sky it travels from mountains, makes little straems , through plains tributaries in rivers but finally to Sea same all Jehadi are coming to Tribal areas and will end up in Peshavar it appears. Same way finally OBL will take final rest in tribal areas will defeat army of Obama. Elites have all loose but jehadi gains by loosing. Is is appaering like last decades of roman empire ? when German tribals were surrounding Roman and famous armies avoiding to come out and fight, finally imploded.
Yes obama can be in usa but OBL or his buddies have edge in Peshavar, quetta and mind of urban elites and salvates his Revolutionary Romanticsm in Cafes, universities and colleges of Punjab and sindh is truth.
I have tried bring discussion on line of title of "Yes We can Obama".
Only all govts can do good if in general they help poor but ask in return to stop producing too many children.Now our country is going get some money from IMF and will will gone in no time back to same people , That is not program. IMF should money and tell pakistan to control exploding population as there is no point in putting water in leaking sea and expect level to rise. This like addiction you are providing beer to person as he is addict to alcohol it does not work. At stroke of indepedence country with 40 million actually it may be only 20 million at start for new cut to size of west pakistan has population of 174 million most feel it is 200 million. So in 60 years it is about 8.5 times. With majority of population in child bearing age this will be exploding up.I just calculated with 20 million base to present 170 million growth rate is 3.65% in 60 years. Now population will more go up as people are betting all medicines developed by white man so we live long. White man has not done this good but he wants we to be miserable. He controls his population and gets samall but allows colored people to multiply but does not want him to come to white countries. So if same trend continues in next 10 years population will reach 242 Million. Generally is world phenemenon when there is strife when people are dieing population goes up even faster. Iran and Iraq in their their recent arab persian race war killed about 1.2 million people does it reduced population growth ? No the both countries made up losses and added excess people. So many iranians just after islamic revolution of Imam Khomaeni population doubled and misery has exploded. Iran govt is so afraid of they defied ethos ( Koran say more you produce allah will be pleased) and they want smaller population and help families to family of reasonable size. When excess population is there anxity leads to illogcal thinking. Some fanatic Persian Nationalist are lamenting while persians are limiting population, Kurds in Mahabad and Arabs in Kuzestan are increasing numbers. That tells even potential rich countries but poor country like iran have to control size.
Nothing is going to succeed as population grows and worst the population growth takes place of people who least afford every where. Poor have got licence and objective condition to be irresponsible. Poor has very high throshould of pain compared to well to do so he is at advantage always. By producing more children he establishes facts on ground. Unfortunately we had good white rulers who could have told us to do right things have just tired and left for their white countries. The had power to to be harsh and whip natives but now nobody is there to improve. English civil service people left leaving us to mercis of Babus and we still Ghulam in our country. Most reasonable people in country do not pay taxes as they feel wrong to waste money. Desi elites feels if my brother gets 5 children that is not his responsibility to help that breeding pair. He does not understand why he should be in business of forced charity when he does not have obligation even to help his stupid relative. This is reason I do not like do gooder civil activists they blackmail with guilt trip on us.But they never tell their clients to that poverty is not virtue, they have doctors dilemma. They want misery so they can lead glamamour life of helping poor. Poors may not need but this askals need to have poor. And for them it is lucrative carriers.
Any way due to overpopulation as worlds elits help so naturally populations do not implode and numbers reduced but they help to increase which explodes in Jihadi wars so they should suffer. Jehidi problem is hard to tackle as once jehidi then you are Jehadi, it has no relation to economics is thing of heart like religion. Jehadi can be bit down but jshadi will wait for jehad and after some time if Jehad does come then he will seach for jehad. As water falls from sky it travels from mountains, makes little straems , through plains tributaries in rivers but finally to Sea same all Jehadi are coming to Tribal areas and will end up in Peshavar it appears. Same way finally OBL will take final rest in tribal areas will defeat army of Obama. Elites have all loose but jehadi gains by loosing. Is is appaering like last decades of roman empire ? when German tribals were surrounding Roman and famous armies avoiding to come out and fight, finally imploded.
Yes obama can be in usa but OBL or his buddies have edge in Peshavar, quetta and mind of urban elites and salvates his Revolutionary Romanticsm in Cafes, universities and colleges of Punjab and sindh is truth.
I have tried bring discussion on line of title of "Yes We can Obama".
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#275 Posted by dost_mittar on November 14, 2008 7:24:40 am
tahmed32:
Your way of "debate" astonishes me.
What have I not responded to?
You asked about responding to your observation about France. I gave my response in #223. You have never challenged any of the statistics and studies that I referred to but only tried to pooh-pooh and tarnish the reputation of those who conducted them while admitting that you know nothing about those institutions except that they are Indians [talk about prejudice?].
"btw, your arrogance reflects the same hubris that Indians like you had after Pokharan when Indians merely copied decades old technology and assumed that Pakistanis would be unable to do the same - and the BJP leaders you talk about wet their dhotis in 1998 when Pakistan gave them a fitting reply just days after they were crowing about the Indian nuclear explosions. Try some humility instead - you might learn a few things."
What kind of nonsense is this? Did I say anything about Pakistan? Did I say that Pakistan will not be able to replicate what India has done?
Let me repeat the issues that we are discussing:
1. Demographic changes are slow but have a far reaching impact.
2. In India, birth rates are influenced by many factors, such as rural/urban, literacy and other socio-economic factors, as well as religion.
3. Religion remains a factor after other measurable factors are accounted for, with Muslims having the highest birth rate and Parsees and Jains with the lowest birth rate.
Let me add [my interpretation] that it makes sense to use religion as a factor. If people believe [regardless of what the true religion says] that using contraceptive is sin, they are less likely to use it. [does not mean that they won't use it].
Now, I will appreciate it if you can find it within you to restrict the debate to these points and without using too many adjectives. It would be perfectly okay for you to say that you do not know anything about the Indian situation and would like to discuss only the international aspects of demography
Your way of "debate" astonishes me.
What have I not responded to?
You asked about responding to your observation about France. I gave my response in #223. You have never challenged any of the statistics and studies that I referred to but only tried to pooh-pooh and tarnish the reputation of those who conducted them while admitting that you know nothing about those institutions except that they are Indians [talk about prejudice?].
"btw, your arrogance reflects the same hubris that Indians like you had after Pokharan when Indians merely copied decades old technology and assumed that Pakistanis would be unable to do the same - and the BJP leaders you talk about wet their dhotis in 1998 when Pakistan gave them a fitting reply just days after they were crowing about the Indian nuclear explosions. Try some humility instead - you might learn a few things."
What kind of nonsense is this? Did I say anything about Pakistan? Did I say that Pakistan will not be able to replicate what India has done?
Let me repeat the issues that we are discussing:
1. Demographic changes are slow but have a far reaching impact.
2. In India, birth rates are influenced by many factors, such as rural/urban, literacy and other socio-economic factors, as well as religion.
3. Religion remains a factor after other measurable factors are accounted for, with Muslims having the highest birth rate and Parsees and Jains with the lowest birth rate.
Let me add [my interpretation] that it makes sense to use religion as a factor. If people believe [regardless of what the true religion says] that using contraceptive is sin, they are less likely to use it. [does not mean that they won't use it].
Now, I will appreciate it if you can find it within you to restrict the debate to these points and without using too many adjectives. It would be perfectly okay for you to say that you do not know anything about the Indian situation and would like to discuss only the international aspects of demography
#274 Posted by tahmed32 on November 14, 2008 6:51:51 am
#271 Dost Mittar: I realize your tender Indian nationalist feelings are hurt when I say I never heard of those "famous Indian Institutes" you kept referring me to as a substitute for a reasoned discussion. But I was simply conveying a fact (and you can take it as my lack of enlightenment).
Your shifting from tossing names of "famous Indian Institutes" to the Chandrayaan project (of which I have heard, of course) simply means you are digging yourself deeper in the same hole. Arrogance is not a substitute for reasoned argument.
btw, your arrogance reflects the same hubris that Indians like you had after Pokharan when Indians merely copied decades old technology and assumed that Pakistanis would be unable to do the same - and the BJP leaders you talk about wet their dhotis in 1998 when Pakistan gave them a fitting reply just days after they were crowing about the Indian nuclear explosions. Try some humility instead - you might learn a few things.
Your shifting from tossing names of "famous Indian Institutes" to the Chandrayaan project (of which I have heard, of course) simply means you are digging yourself deeper in the same hole. Arrogance is not a substitute for reasoned argument.
btw, your arrogance reflects the same hubris that Indians like you had after Pokharan when Indians merely copied decades old technology and assumed that Pakistanis would be unable to do the same - and the BJP leaders you talk about wet their dhotis in 1998 when Pakistan gave them a fitting reply just days after they were crowing about the Indian nuclear explosions. Try some humility instead - you might learn a few things.
#273 Posted by dost_mittar on November 14, 2008 6:44:05 am
Majumdar:
"But the impact of religion on fertility would be far lower than socio-economic factors."
That could be so. The google only brought up abstracts of the studies which did not give the beta coefficients, so I do not know the relative significance of the religion variable. As regards to the Hindu article, it too did not give relative significance; it was an agenda driven analysis of other studies in response to other agenda driven analyses by people with the opposite agendas. I would suggest that one should look at the primary results and do one's own interpretation.
"But the impact of religion on fertility would be far lower than socio-economic factors."
That could be so. The google only brought up abstracts of the studies which did not give the beta coefficients, so I do not know the relative significance of the religion variable. As regards to the Hindu article, it too did not give relative significance; it was an agenda driven analysis of other studies in response to other agenda driven analyses by people with the opposite agendas. I would suggest that one should look at the primary results and do one's own interpretation.
#272 Posted by Faruk on November 14, 2008 6:39:45 am
re : dost-mittar#270
"with the amount of meat I eat, my karma might bring me back as a Muslim in the next birth."
I see a lot of Muslims turning vegetarian due to health reasons, will their karma make them hindus in their next birth? and you will be a Muslim....
Regards,
Faruk
"with the amount of meat I eat, my karma might bring me back as a Muslim in the next birth."
I see a lot of Muslims turning vegetarian due to health reasons, will their karma make them hindus in their next birth? and you will be a Muslim....
Regards,
Faruk
#271 Posted by dost_mittar on November 14, 2008 6:16:02 am
tahmed32:
Let me introduce you to another rinky dinky Indian institute: Its name is ISRO, famously infested by Hindutva freaks, one of whom was selected as India's President by the BJP. It has just announced that it has planted the Indian flag on the moon.
Of course, you will wait until the results are verified by the Luxemburg Space Agency.
Let me introduce you to another rinky dinky Indian institute: Its name is ISRO, famously infested by Hindutva freaks, one of whom was selected as India's President by the BJP. It has just announced that it has planted the Indian flag on the moon.
Of course, you will wait until the results are verified by the Luxemburg Space Agency.
#270 Posted by dost_mittar on November 14, 2008 6:10:02 am
Faruk#259:
"I don't know if the Hindu's get scared but I know for a fact that a lot of Indian Muslims get really scared when they think about the shining examples of human achievement to our east and west. That's the reason the issue of high birthrate among Indian Muslims is confined to dost-mittar's imagination."
I did not say that I am scared; but the higher birth rate of Muslims and the galcial importance of demographic changes are a fact.
Why am I not scared? Because it is very hazardous to project past trends into the future. A lot can happen between now and the next 300 years for the trends to change and, who knows, with the amount of meat I eat, my karma might bring me back as a Muslim in the next birth.
"I don't know if the Hindu's get scared but I know for a fact that a lot of Indian Muslims get really scared when they think about the shining examples of human achievement to our east and west. That's the reason the issue of high birthrate among Indian Muslims is confined to dost-mittar's imagination."
I did not say that I am scared; but the higher birth rate of Muslims and the galcial importance of demographic changes are a fact.
Why am I not scared? Because it is very hazardous to project past trends into the future. A lot can happen between now and the next 300 years for the trends to change and, who knows, with the amount of meat I eat, my karma might bring me back as a Muslim in the next birth.
#269 Posted by Faruk on November 14, 2008 5:59:55 am
re: hamidm2 #264,265,266
I don't know if the Hindu's get scared but I know for a fact that a lot of Indian Muslims get really scared when they think about the shining examples of human achievement to our east and west. That's the reason the issue of high birthrate among Indian Muslims is confined to dost-mittar's imagination.
I read that you have decided to risk another trip to the homeland. Stay safe..
Regards,
Faruk
I don't know if the Hindu's get scared but I know for a fact that a lot of Indian Muslims get really scared when they think about the shining examples of human achievement to our east and west. That's the reason the issue of high birthrate among Indian Muslims is confined to dost-mittar's imagination.
I read that you have decided to risk another trip to the homeland. Stay safe..
Regards,
Faruk
#268 Posted by nkg on November 14, 2008 5:10:15 am
Re: # 266
hamidm2...
..sorry for any alarm the 7.9 number might have caused among the vegetarians ..."
bihari/up vegetarians are far efficient breeders than lot of carnivores....you should give up your prejudice...
hamidm2...
..sorry for any alarm the 7.9 number might have caused among the vegetarians ..."
bihari/up vegetarians are far efficient breeders than lot of carnivores....you should give up your prejudice...
#267 Posted by nkg on November 14, 2008 5:06:47 am
Re: # 266
hamidm2...
i was told that, saddam hussein used to award each israeli arabs with handsome amount for addition of each child in their family and the award used to be much higher for suicide bombers. after toppling of saddam hussein, the supply line dried up and suicide bombing has almost stopped...
that may be the reason for reduction of birthrate among israeli arabs....
hamidm2...
i was told that, saddam hussein used to award each israeli arabs with handsome amount for addition of each child in their family and the award used to be much higher for suicide bombers. after toppling of saddam hussein, the supply line dried up and suicide bombing has almost stopped...
that may be the reason for reduction of birthrate among israeli arabs....
#266 Posted by hamidm2 on November 14, 2008 4:47:33 am
correction .......
..... i am sorry, those numbers were from 1996 .... since then the gazans have cut back on procreative sex and according to the cia world factbook the average suicider's mom produced 5.19 children in 2008 ........ sorry for any alarm the 7.9 number might have caused among the vegetarians ...
#265 Posted by hamidm2 on November 14, 2008 4:41:51 am
hindoos, beware !
.... do you want this to happen in hyderabad ???
Gaza has the highest total fertility rate (TFR).
Gaza's TFR is 7.9, meaning the average woman in Gaza will have a total of 7.9 children in the course of her lifetime, given current birthrates. The only figures near that fertility rate anywhere in the Middle East are 7.8 in Oman, 7.6 in Yemen and 7.1 in Syria. By contrast, the West Bank TFR is 5.7, a figure closer to countries at the low end of the scale like Israel with 2.9, Turkey with 3.6, Lebanon with 3.7, Egypt with 3.9 and Bahrain with 4.2.
.... do you want this to happen in hyderabad ???
Gaza has the highest total fertility rate (TFR).
Gaza's TFR is 7.9, meaning the average woman in Gaza will have a total of 7.9 children in the course of her lifetime, given current birthrates. The only figures near that fertility rate anywhere in the Middle East are 7.8 in Oman, 7.6 in Yemen and 7.1 in Syria. By contrast, the West Bank TFR is 5.7, a figure closer to countries at the low end of the scale like Israel with 2.9, Turkey with 3.6, Lebanon with 3.7, Egypt with 3.9 and Bahrain with 4.2.
#264 Posted by hamidm2 on November 14, 2008 4:35:46 am
Re: # 262
majumdar mian,
.... demographics is the ultimate (and only) weapon the hapless ummah has to overwhelm the infidel and it is being applied selectively ..... you might want to check out the birth rate in gaza and the west bank where they are producing an army of potential suicide bombers ...... if i were a hindoo (thank god i am not) i wouldn't be lulled into complacency ......... one day you migh wake up in the morning and find out that all the spots on the railroad track are taken by moslems ....... what will you do then ?
majumdar mian,
.... demographics is the ultimate (and only) weapon the hapless ummah has to overwhelm the infidel and it is being applied selectively ..... you might want to check out the birth rate in gaza and the west bank where they are producing an army of potential suicide bombers ...... if i were a hindoo (thank god i am not) i wouldn't be lulled into complacency ......... one day you migh wake up in the morning and find out that all the spots on the railroad track are taken by moslems ....... what will you do then ?
#263 Posted by nkg on November 14, 2008 3:36:11 am
Re: # 262
majumder...
people here are discussing effect of islam on breeding pattern...for almost all variety of people (indians of various state, african,european...) moslems outbreed their non moslem counterpart due to strange culture and definitive agenda...now, if you try to compare a moslem in east europe (cold climatic condition) with a hispanic in tropical weather, then you are bringing lot many parameters and trying to create confusion...
Now, do islamic practise enhance performance of organs related to human reproduction? I am sure (if any) has (shouting 5 times and banging head, if anything will have minimal effect (Indian ayurveda and yoga is most effective in most of physical matters) on body and mind...
majumder...
people here are discussing effect of islam on breeding pattern...for almost all variety of people (indians of various state, african,european...) moslems outbreed their non moslem counterpart due to strange culture and definitive agenda...now, if you try to compare a moslem in east europe (cold climatic condition) with a hispanic in tropical weather, then you are bringing lot many parameters and trying to create confusion...
Now, do islamic practise enhance performance of organs related to human reproduction? I am sure (if any) has (shouting 5 times and banging head, if anything will have minimal effect (Indian ayurveda and yoga is most effective in most of physical matters) on body and mind...
#262 Posted by majumdar on November 14, 2008 1:03:47 am
DM sahib,
Religion may be a factor which explains why Muslims have more children as compared to non-Muslims with very similar social indices, but the difference if any would hardly be very large, although I wud be willing to look at data which suggests to the contrary. But the impact of religion on fertility would be far lower than socio-economic factors. As Tahmed sahib's data and the article quoted by Kaal bhai brings out.
Regards
Religion may be a factor which explains why Muslims have more children as compared to non-Muslims with very similar social indices, but the difference if any would hardly be very large, although I wud be willing to look at data which suggests to the contrary. But the impact of religion on fertility would be far lower than socio-economic factors. As Tahmed sahib's data and the article quoted by Kaal bhai brings out.
Regards
#261 Posted by nkg on November 14, 2008 12:43:30 am
Re: # 251
shah2..
"Regarding alarmed rraised by hindutva the larger figure for muslim was due to inclusion of Kashmir in the cnsus for the first time..."
do you know how much kashmir population is contributing to the larger picture of india?
why, irrespective of state ( maharashtra, karnataka, tamilnadu...) common indians feels same about moslems (un controlled breeders)? it is from common observation...
shah2..
"Regarding alarmed rraised by hindutva the larger figure for muslim was due to inclusion of Kashmir in the cnsus for the first time..."
do you know how much kashmir population is contributing to the larger picture of india?
why, irrespective of state ( maharashtra, karnataka, tamilnadu...) common indians feels same about moslems (un controlled breeders)? it is from common observation...
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