The Correct Turn

Paracha Sa'ab.. i have to agree with u on the basic idea that u've put fwd.. but dont u think an armed struggle (of whatever type) is unavoidable when the other side proves itself to be indifferent (unwilling) towards the good/democratic way or even the pre-decided rules of the game (that is, the plebisite etc )? After all, the armed struggle was not unpopular, at least not until it stretched fot too long and was successfully cornered/countered the way it was by india.

Re: # 239
kaal....
it is the arabic angle, that is more important to these paki beduine followers...
the best moslas are those who live close to arab deserts...in that respect chinese and bangladeshi moslas are of lower rank in beduinism scale...so, pakis have to jump and shout for the cause of palestinians (though the entire arab nations are engaged in that), not for that of chinku or bd moslas....

iqbal bhai, there is no rule against a school drop out holding any post.

muqaddam, I think what happens is that there are some broad ideas that people (or local groups) use opportunisitically, and quite independently of one another. So we can think of that as a downward flow of effects.

Sometimes, depending upon their own interests, others migh pick up on those local conflicts and make them 'universal.'

So the Palestinian conflict might have a huge support in Pakistan but the struggle of Chinese Muslims may receive a second-hand treatment.

Basically, you have ideas that are universal, and you have self-interests that are local, and the two are mixed and matched opportunistically most of the times.

Dear Nadeem and other Pakistanis

You have written about Militant Islam, Hurriyat and the JKLK, and many other things. But one Think I would like to know from you including others that once the Kashmir Issue is solved where will the Militants go, What are their goals, objectives and missions. What will be their next target, may be the minorities of Pakistan. I still remember once the Afghan war ended the militants settled in Pakistan. They made Pakistan their base or a second home. The rest is History. The result, ethnic violence, Sectarian violence, Gang wars, Land Mafias, Narcotics, drugs (Life Taking), a terrible law and order situation. The militants in Kashmir especially the Hardcore ones want a Taliban type rule, the one which is similar in Swat. Irfan hussien a noted Pakistani Journalist once remarked the militants in Kashmir would turn their guns on Pakistan after the Kashmir problem is over. The militants, Hurriyat or the Jklf cannot give the Kashmiris computers, IT, Hollywood, Bollywood, modern education, better Health services. You have Yasin Malik a school drop out, but wishes to become the Prime Minister of Kashmir.

Iqbal Singh

Political Islam appears to be an acceptable term. However, when applied holistically, since Muslim ummah as an international entity has proved to be a myth despite the religion being dominant in several countries and having more than a billion adherents, the political Islam as perceived by the author is more a matter of local convenience.
So, where Muslims abut Hindus, there is a Hindu-Muslim issue, in the Middle East it is a Muslim-Jew issue, else where it could be a Muslim-Christian issue.
As for Pakistan, since its inception it has tried its level best to galvanise the support of Muslim countries against "Hindu" India in its Kashmir cause but has generally failed. You even had Saddam Hussain of Iraq fully supporting India's position on Kashmir.
So, the so called political Islam notwithstanding, what matters is realpolitic in which Pakistan has clearly lost over the last sixty years.
Kashmir is just falling into the jigsaw.

Re: # 163
hamidm2...
what if amrican meltdown takes away everything what it has given you....at least you will leave usa with nice memories (and prepare for the worst in your homeland....)

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Re: # 227 hamdim
[...we pakis might have lots of faults, but we are not delusional...]

Ha ha ha - fking statement of the century...

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arjun,

..... you are a trooper and a good soldier for the horrible hindoos but i have to tell you a little secret:...... psssst! "nobody reads your posts"...... why? .... because most pakis have already read the dawn, dailynews, nation and the news ......... try another gig ..... if i were you i would concentrate on trying to get a date for next weekend instead of wasting my time digging up what we pakis already know ... leave this lufangebazi up to old foggies like me, dost-mittar and the decrepit old man, tahamed - you have a lot of oats to sow .... when i was your age .....sigh!...... i don't know if you have noticed this, but we pakis are our own worst critics and we don't need some 35 dollar an hour code coolie in baltimore to tell us how fkuced up we are ! .......... what a moron !

heh..

India would make Pakistan barren by 2014, says Jamaat

* Indus water commissioner says stopping Pakistan’s water violates Indus Treaty

LAHORE: India would make Pakistan barren by 2014 by stopping its water, Indus Water Commissioner Jamaat Ali Shah said on Sunday.

Addressing a seminar at the Lahore Press Club, Shah said that India had constructed dams at various rivers and continued doing so. He said that under the Indus Water Treaty, India was allowed to generate electricity on the flow of the river but could not stop Pakistan’s water. Doing that amounted to violation of the treaty, he added.

Talking about the recent water stoppage issue, Shah said India had claimed it had stopped Pakistan’s water from August 19 to 28. However, according to Pakistan’s estimate, India had stopped its water until September 5, he added. Shah said that Pakistan had told India that it had violated the treaty and demanded that India compensate its neighbour by supplying the amount of water withheld. He added an Indian delegation would visit Pakistan on November 29 to discuss the issue.

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anil sahib: it is indeed. kristof also did an article on pakistan in todays nyt. good to see independent check on DIL's schools (not that i ever doubted the good work they are doing).

#227 So you are one of those who run for the lavatory as soon as the seat belt sign is switched off after take off!! Did you know they have men's rooms in airports?

Re: # 226

kaal mian,

"Why do so many Pakistanis feel people from the subcontinent are filthy?"

.... we pakis might have lots of faults, but unlike the horrible hindoos we are not delusional and are sometimes brutally honest ..... all you have to do is take a walk through any bazaar in the subcontinent and it doesn't have to be a sabzi mandi where you have to compete with cows and other domestic animals ....... you don't have to go that far - you can just take a trip to the lavatory on a flight from dubai or manchester to the homeland an hour after take-off ......

hamidm, may be they are gay, who knows! :)

Why do so many Pakistanis feel people from the subcontinent are filthy? May be you meet too many geeks who forget to dress well and keep clean.

Haven't peeked into the kitchens of Indian restaurants. But have no doubt you are right about them. LOL

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Re: # 210

kaalchakri,

..... in my experience, people from the subcontinent - hindoos and muslims - are the filthiest people on al gore's earth ..... the only thing that they keep clean is their behind, which they ritually wash a couple of times a day - other than that, their body odor is only matched by the stench of their kitchens .... even here in america, i doubt you would want to eat at an indian restaurant if you got a peek at their kitchen ..... i have stopped getting coffee from dunkin donut which is controlled by the patel tribe because i am a little suspicious of the long pinky fingernail sported by their men - i wonder what they use it for ...... any idea?

Tahmed sahib:

A great video. More power to DIL.

Heenga= Assfoetida spice

#220 that is exactly my point, laddu khan.

Re: # 218

Mian,

Aap hi ko aapki cheez pada riya hoon!!

kaalchakra #210 tradition, old habits and so forth in due course become sanctified as "religion". this is as true for hindus as for muslims, christians, jews and so forth.

thinking of "others" as unclean is one of these habits, and this is not restricted to hindus either. e.g. hamidm below was talking about how his mother thought hindus smelt of heeng; just as your grandmother would shoo musla kids out of the kitchen. japanese considered westerners "unclean". even cannibals in the south seas would eat only fellow savages, considering the white people to be unclean. and sarah palin of course could tell you about the unclean inhabitants of that distant country of Africa that she can almost see on a clear day from Alaska..

laddu mian: your understanding of islam is as convenient as that of other hindus.

What good is giving books to girls when their faces are going to be etched via acid? US should be bombing these animals as well as giving books. Not one or the other! Delusional as arjun says!

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Re: # 214

Umm......that Hadith was about the benefits of CAMEL milk and urine..........

thanks Allah for that!!

Re: # 204

"the rest of humanity is unaware of its spiritual qualities (and thank Allah for that). :-)"

Tahmed ji ,

You have not read you own Islamic hadiths properly.

Here is the Hadith , dating back to Bedioun days of Prophet when he revealed the benefits of cow milk and urine-

Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794, Narrated Anas.

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DIL (Developments in Literacy) started by (and still largely funded by) Pakistani expats in the US makes it to the NYT as being a much better investment for Obama to consider than simply giving more military weapons to Pakistan in the fight against taliban.

(see video in the link below)

http://www.nytimes.com/

Bubba, if you allow others simply human faults, you notice that considering others unclean is a very reasonable expectation, unless you can be sure they are clean.

Most often that belief would not and should not matter. But in some contexts, such as eating food, or inter-marriage, that would be more important in other contexts, such as trading with each other.

tahmedji, traditionally, Hindus in the grocery store business - the vaishyas - have had very clear rules about their workplace and how they conduct and record their business. If you speak to them, many would speak of their practices and bahi-khatas in religous and dharmic terms. You don't see those rules because you don't come in contact with that part of the business.

Hindus made religious rules for everything, for how they conducted their lives. These were rarely 'universal' rules because different people and contexts had different situations and conditions.

Eating food and keeping it clean has been an obsession of Hindus, for good reason, in a hot country like India. Not based on any science, but simply on common sense, as they saw it.

My ethiopian christian friends tell me that they do not allow any muslim in their kitchen, and they themselves would not go into a muslim house. These behaviors are remnants of hidden dislike of each other based on religion. It was probably started by the ruling muslim elite against those who did not accept islam. "Najaes" in arabic means "impure" or "unclean", hence "untouchable", and it is used for all those who do not follow the muslim faith.

kaalchakra: grocery stores have been around since the domestication of the wheat plant - about 10,000 years ago.

tahmed, if those stores existed a thousand years ago, I am sure there would have been religious rules about them too! :)

tahmed, if those stores existed a thousand years ago, I am sure there would have been religious rules about them too! :)

rabia, why?

----------

Hamidm, most of these things can be given a more sympathetic treatment, if one is willing to.

The way I see it, over their many thousands of years of collective experience (with little actual science to guide them) many people figured out that keeping foods/kichen clean was important, how or what one ate was important. So there was tremendous emphasis on washing hands, for example, on taking baths, on not entering the kichen without taking baths, on not letting strangers enter one's kichen, on eating alone or with limited interactions with others while eating.

These things were spread among the masses as simple rules, call them religous rules. All Indian religion is like that - simple rules turned into religion. Much of it falls by the wayside, slowly sometimes, as more knowledge accumulates and new rules are born. So don't hold that against your grandma. She had no reason to believe that the kafir or Christian sweeper was as clean as the people she knew or could trust. May be she saw that in 'religious' terms, but she was being rational in her own ways, given her own access to reliable ifnormation and her own understanding. Now, if hamdim does the same thing, that would be different. :)

laddu bhayya: actually urine is a hindu specialty. the rest of humanity is unaware of its spiritual qualities (and thank Allah for that). :-)

Hindus use a lot of condiments that also serve as medicinal herbs like Jeera, Haldi, Dhania, soonth, Rai etc..

Hindu Aryurveda is rich in the classification of herbs and their benefits to human beings.

Bedouin Arabs only had Camel's milk and urine and khajur as medicines.

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Re: # 183

Nonsense,

Unani medicine means the presciption comes from Greece (Unan) . Bedouin Arabs had no vegetation in their desert lands and all the medicines and expertise in herbal medicines had to be procured from kafir lands.

The expertise used to come from Unan or from Al-Hind!!

rabiawasti: kaal's grandmother is quite right in not letting muslas into her kitchen. she knows how muslas would eat everything in the kitchen in 1 minute.

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#196
[What surprises me the most that the great sufis who were supposed to create Muslim-Hindu understanding and 'joint culture' (according to Hindu liberals) did not explain any of this to their Muslim followers]
yeah, because you're wrong. it's obviously not the same thing that your grandmother doesn't let you into the kitchen unless you've showered and if she doesn't let an impure muslim into her kitchen ever.

Re: # 196

kaal mian,

.... if it makes you feel any better, this craziness also rubbed off on moslems ..... the same grandma who was shocked by her hindoo neighbors banning her entry into their kitchen, also kept a separate cup and saucer for the christian sweeper who cleaned out her toilets .... i can remember her pouring scalding hot tea into his cracked old cup from a distance of four feet and yelling at the poor kafir if he got it too close to the tea pot ....... hindoos don't have a monopoly on madness in the subcontinent ........

hamidm, many Hindus can't avoid Heeng because they don't use onions or garlic or stuff like that :)

Hindus used to be and many still are very particular about what they ate and how they ate. They would not let even other Hindus enter their kitchen, not even their own family members who had not taken a bath first. When I was a kid, grandmother would be horrified if I stepped inside the kitchen or touched any of the utensils without taking a bath first. So this craziness is not directed toward Muslims, alone!

What surprises me the most that the great sufis who were supposed to create Muslim-Hindu understanding and 'joint culture' (according to Hindu liberals) did not explain any of this to their Muslim followers. Hindus not letting Muslims enter their kithens is SUCH a huge part of being a Muslim in India or Pakistan. LOL

aww..pakis don't like america because it won't make india give up indian kashmir? poor (inbred retard) babies...

btw...how is prophetboy going to spin the whole AQ is more popular among pakis than the US thing?


Ringed by Foes, Pakistanis Fear the U.S., Too
By JANE PERLEZ

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A redrawn map of South Asia has been making the rounds among Pakistani elites. It shows their country truncated, reduced to an elongated sliver of land with the big bulk of India to the east, and an enlarged Afghanistan to the west.

That the map was first circulated as a theoretical exercise in some American neoconservative circles matters little here. It has fueled a belief among Pakistanis, including members of the armed forces, that what the United States really wants is the breakup of Pakistan, the only Muslim country with nuclear arms.

“One of the biggest fears of the Pakistani military planners is the collaboration between India and Afghanistan to destroy Pakistan,� said a senior Pakistani government official involved in strategic planning, who insisted on anonymity as per diplomatic custom. “Some people feel the United States is colluding in this.�

That notion may strike Americans as strange coming from an ally of 50 years. But as the incoming Obama administration tries to coax greater cooperation from Pakistan in the fight against militancy, it can hardly be ignored.

This is a country where years of weak governance have left ample room for conspiracy theories of every kind. But like much such thinking anywhere, what is said frequently reveals the tender spots of a nation’s psyche. Educated Pakistanis sometimes say that they are paranoid, but add that they believe they have good reason.

Pakistan, a 61-year-old country marbled by ethnic fault lines, is a collection of just four provinces, which often seem to have little in common. Virtually every one of its borders, drawn almost arbitrarily in the last gasps of the British Empire, is disputed with its neighbors, not least Pakistan’s bitter and much larger rival, India.

These facts and the insecurities that flow from them inform many of Pakistan’s disagreements with the United States, including differences over the need to rein in militancy in the form of Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

The new democratically elected president, Asif Ali Zardari, has visited the United States twice since assuming power three months ago. He has been generous in his praise of the Bush administration. But that stance is criticized at home as fawning and wins him little popularity among a steadfastly anti-American public.

So how will the promise by President-elect Barack Obama for a new start between the United States and Pakistan be received here? How can it be begun?

One possibility could be some effort to ease Pakistani anxieties, even as the United States demands more from Pakistan. That will probably mean a regional approach to what, it is increasingly apparent, are regional problems. There, Pakistani and American interests may coincide.

American military commanders, including Gen. David H. Petraeus, have started to argue forcefully that the solution to the conflict in Afghanistan, where the American war effort looks increasingly uncertain, must involve a wide array of neighbors.

Mr. Obama has said much the same. Several times in his campaign, he laid out the crux of his thinking. Reducing tensions between Pakistan and India would allow Pakistan to focus on the real threat — the Qaeda and Taliban militants who are tearing at the very fabric of the country.

“If Pakistan can look towards the east with confidence, it will be less likely to believe its interests are best advanced through cooperation with the Taliban,� Mr. Obama wrote in Foreign Affairs magazine last year.

But such an approach faces sizable obstacles, the biggest being the conflict over Kashmir. The Himalayan border area has been disputed since the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947, and remains divided between them.

Pakistan’s army and intelligence agencies have long fought a proxy war with India by sponsoring militant groups to terrorize the Indian-administered part of the territory.

After the 9/11 attacks, Pakistan reined in those militants for a time, but this year the militants have renewed their incursions. Talks between the sides made some progress in recent years but have petered out.

Pakistanis warn that the United States should not appear too eager to mediate. First, they caution, India has always regarded Kashmir as a bilateral question. India, they note, also faces a general election early next year, an inappropriate moment to push such an explosive issue.

Second, some Pakistanis are concerned about the reliability of the United States as a fair mediator. “Given the United States’ record on the Palestinian issue, where the Palestinians had to move 10 times backwards and the Israelis moved the goal posts, the same could happen here,� said Zubair Khan, a former commerce minister who has watched Kashmir closely.

It was discouraging, Mr. Khan said, that the United States ignored the importance of the huge nonviolent protests by Muslims in Kashmir against Indian rule this summer. “Anywhere else, and they would have been hailed as an Orange Revolution,� he said, referring to the wave of protests that led to a change in the Ukrainian government in 2004.

Such distrust has been exacerbated by what Pakistanis see as the Bush administration’s tilt toward India.

Exhibit A for the Pakistanis is India’s nuclear deal with the United States, which allows India to engage in nuclear trade even though it never joined the global Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Pakistan, with its recent history of spreading nuclear technology, received no comparable bargain.

The nuclear deal was devised in Washington to position India as a strategic counterbalance to China. That is how it is seen in Pakistan, too, but with no enthusiasm.

“The United States has changed the whole nuclear order by this deal, and in doing so is containing China, the only friend Pakistan has in the region,� said Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani Army general.

Further, Pakistan is upset about the advances India is making in Afghanistan, with no checks from the United States, Mr. Masood said.

India has recently made big investments in Afghanistan, where Pakistan has been competing for influence. These include a road to the Iranian border that will eventually give India access to the Iranian port of Chabahar, circumventing Pakistan.

India has offered training for Afghanistan’s military, given assistance for a new Parliament building in Kabul and has re-opened consulates along the border with Pakistan.

The consulates, the Pakistanis charge, are used by India as cover to lend support to a long-running separatist movement in Baluchistan Province. (Baluchistan was even made an independent state on the theoretical map, which accompanied an article by Ralph Peters titled “Blood Borders: How a Better Middle East Would Look,� originally published in Armed Forces Journal.)

Both India and Pakistan in fact have a long and destructive history of, gently or not, putting in the knife. Exhibit A for the Indians is the bombing in July of its embassy in Afghanistan, which American and Indian officials say can be traced to groups linked to Pakistan’s spy agency.

If the Obama administration is indeed to convince Pakistanis that militancy, not the Indian Army, presents the gravest threat, it will not be easy.

The commander of American forces in Afghanistan, Gen. David D. McKiernan, got a taste of the challenge this month, when he visited Islamabad and sat down with a group of about 70 members of Pakistan’s Parliament at the residence of the United States ambassador, Anne W. Patterson. Their attitude showed an almost total incomprehension of the reasons for American behavior in the region after Sept. 11, 2001.

“A couple of the questions I got were, ‘Why did you Americans come to Afghanistan when it was so peaceful, before you got there?’ � General McKiernan recalled during an appearance at the Atlantic Council in Washington last week.

“Another one,� he said, “was, ‘We understand that you’ve invited a thousand Indian soldiers to serve in Afghanistan by Christmas.’ �

There was no truth to the claim, he told the Pakistanis. “We have a lot of work to do,� he told his audience in Washington.

Indeed, among ordinary Pakistanis, many still regard Al Qaeda more positively than the United States, polls find. Talk shows here often include arguments that the suicide bombings in Pakistan are payback for the Pakistani Army fighting an American war.

Some commentators suggest that the United States is actually financing the Taliban. The point is to tie down the Pakistani Army, they say, leaving the way open for the Americans to grab Pakistan’s nuclear weapons.

Recently, in the officer’s mess in Bajaur, the northern tribal region where the Pakistani Army is tied down fighting the militants, one officer offered his own theory: Osama bin Laden did not exist, he told a visiting journalist.

Rather, he was a creation of the Americans, who needed an excuse to invade Afghanistan and encroach on Pakistan.

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That won't happen because Indians won't let it happen, obama or no obama. The biggest threat to India on that score comes from the idea of "soft borders" that some Indians are buying into, IMO. Not sure how that can be done without effectively handing kashmir to Pakistan in the next twenty years. But that is a different debate.

#191 Posted by KaalChakra on November 23, 2008 4:05:05 am


There has been some speculation


If by speculation you mean mass self-delusion by pakis(and Kuldip Nayyar types) in their little echo chamber of self-delusion, yes...there was "speculation"...

what'll be even more fun is seeing the whole "obama will deliver kashmir on a platter to the land of the pure" delusion being popped...

arjun, that is good news for India. There has been some speculation if Obama would cool off on that deal.

But is Karl Inderfurth an Obama aide? And can we take his views as reflective of Obamas? I am still concerned, arjun!

BTW, if the police does have witnesses in its own ranks, then I take all those words back, and will agree entirely with HP.

You know what the best part of an Obama victory is? Seeing paki sheikchillis climb out on the limb again...seeing pakis self-deluding themselves into t-shirt with paki flag type expectations...only to see those hopes dashed by reality..

Obama will take forward the Indo-US nuclear deal: Aide

NEW DELHI: Terming the Indo-US nuclear deal as the "tipping point" in the new relationship between the two countries, a key aide of President-elect Barack Obama has expressed confidence that the new administration will take forward that agreement and build on it despite initial reservations the Democrat had on the issue.

Former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Karl Inderfurth said US would "encourage" India to follow suit if Washington ratified the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

Inderfurth hoped that the "significant agreement" concluded by the Bush administration will be pursued by Obama, who is also supporter of the landmark pact between the two countries.

"I think he is a strong supporter of the agreement. So, this agreement to me as I often said that Brajesh Mishra once describe President Clinton's visit to India in March 2000 as a turning point in this new relationship," Inderfurth told Karan Thapar on CNN-IBN's 'Devil's Advocate'.

The Obama aide said he would suggest the Obama administration to "continue, continue and continue" the relationship with India for which a strong foundation was laid by President George W Bush and former President Bill Clinton during his eight-year tenure.
"I would describe the agreement signed and pursued by President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as the tipping point. I consider this as fundamental for our new relationship and I have no doubt that the Democratic administration is going to taking this agreement and build on it otherwise as well," he said when asked whether Obama will honour the fuel supplies assurances given by Bush.

"As reported, some Policemen were witness to the rape."

HP, that is not right. There is no witness other than a Christian pastor (or some other Christian missionary) who helped her file the complaint, in the first place.

HP, nb is far less religiously driven than what she sometimes gets blamed for. I confess to my own motivations, which are quite religious and partisan in nature.

Look, the case as it stands today, in addition to hurting women, hurts Hindus and India as a state the most. That may be great for semtics, but it is not good for Hindus and the Indian state.

Hindus have been accused of perpetrating or being instrumental in perpetrating a gang rape on a Christian woman. The Indian state has been blamed in standing by as the semitic woman was raped and its police did nothing.

All of semitic world is full of the news. Christian websites have nothing else to discuss these days. Many other allegationons are being made against Hindus, including that Hindus in Orissa have put bounties on the heads of Christians. We have seen those allegations of cataclysms from semitics before, and we understand that.

Some Hindus have been punished because of these claims by a Christian woman. The Indian state has taken a hit. That is ok too.

Now, Hindus and the Indian state are simply asking that the Christian woman who made those allegations cooperate in finding the truth.

There should be no hiding the religious motivations on either side. This case would not have drawn such interest from semitics had this woman not been a semitic. Nor would Hindus want to pursue it were Hindus not being blamed by semitics.

Some Hindu men have been punished. It is time for the semitic woman to do what every other woman is expected to do in such a situation.

HP, your interacts are not worth replying to. I have said what I wanted to. You are not even reading them. You are the weakest link, good bye!

#182 Posted by nb
"And it was not a gang rape; by the way, people do usually survive gang rapes."
Okay, so it was a rape in a public square by one person...I am just wondering how many people helped that one person in the act? Yes, people survive gang rape what is the insight in your comment?

"It has only received so much press because she was a nun."

Well I understand that raped hindu women have no value in India for the press to report. This was reported because the problem was going on in Orissa. I was also wondering had Christians raped a Hindu woman in a public square, what your reaction would have been?

As reported, some Policemen were witness to the rape and in that case they don't need any complaint. They should have made an effort to stop the crime and it was their job to arrest the culprit at the spot. Since police has the witnesses in its own ranks there is no need for any other complaint.

90% women in this case would avoid confronting the rapist. It is true in the US and it is true in India. You are blaming her for not reporting the rape and allowing the rapist to roam around free to commit a similar crime later. But you are not ready to blame the police which was a witness to the rape. Your attitude would have been different if a Hindu woman were raped by bunch of Christians in a public square. Bigotry is your middle name or perhaps the last name.

And back to NFP's article, the second phase of polling is now taking place in parts of J and K. Sheikh Abdullah's daughter is standing against her brother in these elections. That's another interesting thing not mentioned by NFP.

I didn't know that, cheema, people who use it a lot do always claim it's good for the digestion. I cannot understand why Indians are so obsessed with digestion: appetite, "acidity", constipation, the whole thinmajig. Bengalis are probably the worst of the lot, or maybe I just think that because I hear more Bengali somatic complaints than others.

Re: # 182; nb

thanks ... I just did a google search ... apparently it is widely used in "unani" medicine by hakeems (majority of whom are muslims!) ... so there goes the hindu monopoly on its usage!

Cheema, hing is asafoetida (sp?). If you have ever eaten veggies or daal at an Indian restaurant, you probably have eaten it. It's got a taste all its own. I like only a very little of it, some people put far too much in it. And yes, I always have some at home. The reason it is associated with Hindus is probably that some people don't eat onions or garlic, and use this instead to flavour their food.

Re: # 180

yaar nb ... chhorr bhi do ab?!

HP, if it was a Hindu woman, we wouldn't be having this conversation since the police would have shooed her away by now. It has only received so much press because she was a nun. And it was not a gang rape; by the way, people do usually survive gang rapes. It's impossible to get the police to pursue any complaints of rape with no other evidence than a complaint by the victim. What you suggest isn't only stupid, which is tolerable, but evil.

dost_mittar and hamidm sahibaan, thak you very much for the great insight (and recipes) into the world of the "dosa" ... now dost ji wrote: [[ I don't know how hamidm liked sambhar, it invariably has heeng in it.]]

this brings me to my next question; what is "heeng"??

Re: # 175 Arjun for your info.
Most of english newspapers are not patriotic more on pay rolls of CIA.They just push rentlessly American elite think line just slave Parrots.
Urdu papers I like as they are not shy to be patriotic.
There are for defence of Pakistan not news people there are not just lusting for west visa and abandon ship. Urdu news is unmassaged and truthful.
Do not worrry make immpeckable resume for collie jobs ( may be as you friend mr. H to send you to Romair to pput word of Coolie job. If he can not help just brush up driving licence as in NYcity and washington they need fresh coolies for driving yellow cabs. They will give you free dress and cap also. Good luck for Cabbie job in NY city.
Good luck good day.

Re: # 176

arjun mian,

.... i see that you still don't have a date for saturday night ...... do you ever wonder why?

pakiwhackers...coming to peshawar..

Unchecked US attacks may reach Peshawar, officials warn

PESHAWAR: US drone attacks may extend as deep as NWFP capital Peshawar if the political leadership does not work out a ‘bipartisan policy’ to tackle the 'extremely dangerous situation’, government and military officials have warned.

"[The US] can come to Hayatabad (in Peshawar) tomorrow to hit a target and will say they have intelligence that Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was hiding there," senior government and army officials told Daily Times in a series of interviews last week. The US has carried out more than two dozens airstrikes in the Tribal Areas this year, using unmanned spy planes mainly to target Al Qaeda. The warning follows a rare US attack outside the Tribal Areas targeting a suspected Al Qaeda hideout in Bannu on November 19.

"These attacks should end. They are not stopping Al Qaeda attacks, nor will they help Pakistan's campaign against this organisation," the officials speaking on condition of anonymity told Daily Times. They said the US should show how seriously the attacks affected Al Qaeda's ability to strike. "We need to know how much damage has been done to Al Qaeda’s ability to carry out attacks in future." Asked if Pakistan had given a 'tacit approval’ for the US to carry out the attacks, an army official said: "The army chief has not given any such permission. If Pervez Musharraf had done this I would have heard about or known it." iqbal khattak

#173 Posted by ahmedmadani on November 22, 2008 4:35:49 pm


I read this in local Urdu paper.


which one? Al-paki?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I read this in local Urdu paper. Indian Pundit was second choice and got it as former PM S.Aziz refused.Saudi prince investor felt laid down as he made efforts but EX PM rejected offer out of hand.
Indian can claim any thing but this man has destroyed biggest bank and made pauper. Wonder why price is backinhg him ?
thanks.

A friend sent me this story...

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/indian-uncles-aunt ies-unforgettable-says-freed-pakistani-teen_100122297.html

Indians were nice to pathan Muslim boy but are holding a Pakistani Hindu boy in Faridkot jail....Shame on them for hating a Hindu Sindhi.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1859878,00.html

Diarrhea kills more people than AIDS, tuberculosis, or malaria:
According to the estimates of one sanitation specialist George cites, each of the 2.6 billion people who live without sanitation may ingest up to 10 grams of fecal matter a day. The consequence is often diarrhea, which is a mere irritation in the West, but in the developing world a lethal condition that kills 2.2 million people a year — more than AIDS, tuberculosis or malaria. And it’s all for lack of a toilet, which may be why George isn’t one for toilet jokes. “I don’t think 2.6 billion people without a toilet is very funny,� she writes.

Bigger than the curry curse is really the Kashmiris they are suffering of. The brits decided to help for the first time in england's history and they got Kashmiris:)

ha, not only that, HP. What bigger curse can there be upon the hapless British than to see lowly curry turn into their everyday dish, almost!

Given a chance, no true Brit would choose to come to India again if history could be rewinded. :)

#167 Posted by hamidm2

I don't know why I have a feeling that Indians carry a curse of milliniums. Whenever India appears to be doing better the world start falling around. Even the great leaders like Alexander and Timur lung suffered under the curse for lusting after India. The Persians and afghans, look at them now. They are the beggars of the world.

The US decided to rape India and now the US is under the spell. Just go back and check out the history. There more instances like that. I think India should be quarantined for good and no indian should be allowed outside so the world can be a happy place:)

Re: # 165

hp mian,

... the tech bubble burst didn't rally bother me that much because i was eight years younger and didn't have that much to loose ...... now i don't think i will live long enough to see a 5000 nasdaq or a 14,000 dow ....... damn these indians! .... this orissa nun thing is just a cover up for their role in the market crash ....

hamidm, hope you won't have to launch your jihad against neel and vikram and paulson :)

----------

hamidm, the nun may not be faking it. In our society women rarely make false charges of rape against men. So when a woman claims that she was raped by a man, it is reasonable to believe her, and to punish the man. That's what we should do in this case.

Thankfully, despite whatever problems Orissa police might have, that is what was done in this case. Ten local men were put behind bars. Five policemen on duty that day were suspended from their jobs for witnessig the gang rape and doing nohing about it.

But to complete this process the course of justice should be followed. That is the only way justice of any sort can be provided to both men and women on reasonable, sustainable basis whether in India or in Pakistan or in any other country.

Well I guess you are not reading the news right hamid.
Tom Friedman(NYT columnist)wife is from a major real estate family. The family's net worth was approx $2.3 billion when the year started now it is $25 million. One guy I was reading about was worth $30 billion and now he is looking a about $2 billion.
Now remember these guys had this wealth for generations and you were building your 401k for what 20 years now? It will take about 20 years to rebuild what has been lost so far. Remember when 401k last lost values after the tech bubble. They had barely recouped that in the last 6 years and now the sky has fallen.

#161 Posted by HP on November 22, 2008 12:21:22 pm

DO non-muslims women who get raped in pureland get the million $$ and the visa that muslim women get?

Re: # 160

hp,

... thanks for reminding me ..... i have been looking for a reason to hate my unconverted cousins and i finally found two - neel and vikram ! ..... i tell you what, if they shut down citibank before i can get to the islamabad branch and withdraw my money i will declare a personal jihad against all hindoos ........ and if my 401k does not recover in the next five yers i think we should lynch all bald men starting with paulson, neel and tahmed !

kaal mian,

.... i fi remember correctly, mukhtaran mai was groomed by cia agent nicholas kristoff to discredit islam and our culture ..... it was also a campaign by former western colonial powers to discredit our local panchayat based system of justice ..... also, as the chief executive of pakistan pointed out at that time, women in our part of the world make all kinds of claims to get a free visa to canada and america .........

...... unfortunately we people are rather gullible and easily fall for these shennighans by these charlatans and their western handlers ..... i think this nun in orissa (wherever that is) is faking it and should be prosecuted ..... i wouldn't be surprised if the pope is behind all this to gain a few more converts .....

If it was a Hindu woman raped by a mob, both Kaal and nb would have had a different position. She being a Christian does not deserve the same treatment that Hindu woman is entitled too.

nb fits the role in a recent study which found that most women would be reluctant to support a rape victim and would actually blame the woman for rape.

#114 Posted by shankar on November 22, 2008 5:01:12 am
HP sain,
"I wonder if you Sindhi Muslims take a page from your Sindhi Hindu counterparts. Those guys really have the Midas touch."

I am not into responding to childish and comical posts but let me ask: are all eleven hundred million Indians following Neal Kashkari and Vikram Pundit?

True, tahmedji, we can't expect every lady to be as courageous and inspirational as Mukhtaran Mai. So the nun has to be given as much support as possible so this tragic case is pursued and brought to some conclusion - not left hanging in the middle.

It will be very unfortunate for ALL of us if all those criminals who raped her went free, or policemen who witnessed her being raped by a mob were to get their jobs back only because there was no follow up on these very seious allegations:(

---------

I am not sure if you have followed the case, but legally, it will be impossible to keep men locked up on charges of rape, and policemen from getting their jobs back if we made no further progress in this case.

Re: # 157

tahmed mian,

..... who the heck is mukhtaran mai?

#153 kaalchakra sahib: Mukhtaran Mai is indeed an inspiring individual not just for Pakistanis but for thinking people worldwide. But she displayed extraordinary courage. That should not be the standard one applies to the orrissa nun e.g., or to any other rape victim. Also, MM had strong civil society support in Pakistan. The MM episode thus proved to be a stepping stone to the broader attack on Musharraf by a civil society fed up of his shenanigans. So, ultimately she made all of Pakistan strong. That is why it is so important for civil society and thinking people like you and nb to stand up for the weak in your country. Not side with the criminals - leave that to the hamidms of india.

#151 hamidm: "Kaalchakri" may be your comedian's way of addressing kaalchakra, but you have no basis for implying that he is not sincere in what he says.

hamidm #145 by your "logic", no one in any country should speak out against rape because rape takes place in every country. perhaps it is you, not i, who needs to stick to suggesting improving to dosas.

madani sahib,

""Roti and Dal has that punch that can not be same as rice and watery soup. That is reason Indian army has problem and their military officers have no initiative to take over and rule. General carryout out orders is wrong to our mind. The generals should be like lions and tiger always angry and prowl and looking for opportunities and planning moves like wild tigers.""

Aha..so that's the reason why Paki generals have conquered your country so many times. Good thing too, because that's the only war they have ever won. When they are facing rice & dal eating Generals , they get their butts whooped...every time.

hamidm2, unfortunately our societies are messed up in some major ways, at least the Indian sociey is. But our hope is always that we make some slow progress toward seing a better day, collectively. That means at least wanting to punish rapists, no matter which religion they belong to. Just letting possible rapists go, deiberately, seems unwise.

But the most serious allegation here is not that 40 men raped the lady, but that local policemen stood by and did nothing as the lady was raped by 40 men and appealed for help.

Hindu/Muslim/Christian - that's too heinous a crime.

The state mus at least try to fix itself. Five local policemen have been suspended from their jobs over the nun's report that they saw her being raped by a mob and did nothing. There has to be some closure over this. If need be, more policemen might have to be thrown out of their jobs and punished.

Re: # 151
i do not disagree with your observations...its your desensitised aloofness that is disturbing...maybe it is not the real you.

Re: # 146

kaalchakri,

.... thank you for your support, but i think this type of thing in the subcontinent is not really newsworthy - it happens all the time and nobody takes any notice ..... once in a while some uppity reporter or goody-two-shoes ngo worker gets a bee in his topi or her dupatta and makes a big fuss ..... i think it does not become us ..... we are a tough people and are used to walking by dead or dying people on the street, we throw stones at stray dogs and mentally derranged people on the street, we gang up on people and beat them half to death for eve-teasing, our police stations think water-boarding is too sissy for them ...... so, some nun getting raped in orissa or half a dozen women being buried alive in baluchistan is no big whup !

#145 Posted by hamidm2 on November 22, 2008 9:13:50 am


we are on really shaky ground when a member of the parliament defends honor killings on the floor of the house ........


member of parliament and now, member of the cabinet..

If tahmedji is not with us here now, we can open that question to ALL ladies - Indian or Pakistani.

Hopefully, this will be resolved by tomorrow, but right now, today, what should we believe or do?

Prepare to releae all those men lying in jail for raping her with no punishment at all?

Believe that the police did nothing while she was dragged through strets and raped by a mob (or by one man)? Worry about holding some policemen accountable and to be punised for literally facilitating her rape?

Does any lady on Chowk have any PRACTICAL suggestions, today, other than to believe the nun (which we do) and improve the Indian system (which we obviously should)? Once the nun fully cooperates with the police, none of these questions wil have any meaning.

I ask the ladis because NB is right. The core issue is to believe a woman, any woman, everytime, when she says she was raped by a man, or group of men.

Believing the nun, today, what should we do and believe?

hamid writes "tahmed mian,

.... if i were you i would not discuss rape, honor killings and other such things with the horrible hindoos ....."

Tahmed is in no position to discuss those issues he supports the US system of tyranny in which rape is institutionalized (more so than anywhere in the world) as a control mechanism employed by the White elite). 1.2 million per year (completed or attempted) is no small number, neither is the 3 to 5 million women battered every year in the US or the third of the entire female population who has been physically abused in their lives. The US is the trend setter for female oppression all over the globe....

Have a nice day and get a goddamned conscience you miserable Uncle Toms,

TNI masadi

wonder the nun survived the mob rape....
well it was a mob of bhindis.

hamidm, don't knock Pakistanis on this please.

There was a Pakistani woman, named Mukhtaran mai, who fought the system stacked against her, even though she had no great personal resources, no friends in high places (until many jumped on her bandwagaon), and no less murderous intents around her, and still won through sheer persistence.

Let's give Pakistan her due!

Re: # 143

tahmed mian,

.... if i were you i would not discuss rape, honor killings and other such things with the horrible hindoos ....... as pakis we don't have a very good record ourselves .... as a matter of fact, we are on really shaky ground when a member of the parliament defends honor killings on the floor of the house ........

..... i think you would be on much safer ground if you stuck with criticizing the lowly dosa which is hog swill compared to karahi gosht ....... in any case, like i said before, a nun being raped in orissa (wherever that is) is like a tree falling in the amazon jungle .........

NB, at the end of the day, we have to address the practical situation.

What should be, again, practically, done with people who have been lying in jail over her allegations of a mob having raped her?

What exacty should you, I, and tahmedji believe about her rape and about the police standing by doing nothing while she was raped?

kaalchakra sahib #140 the practical alternative is to do what one can to promote the rule of law and protection of the basic rights in society. religion be damned.

Kaalchakra, she is no longer saying (b) happened; the coppers were nowhere around apparently, and as I have already said, it was only one person, which was bad enough, a Hindu man saved her from being gangraped.
Some rapist is probably roaming free now and will reoffend with some other unfortunate woman because she couldn't identify him. I agree it's not her fault,it's his, but it will happen.

#139 nb: it is not unheard of for victims of sexual abuse to not wish to have anything more to say in the matter. even if the criminals and their henchmen are in custody and not running lose anymore - let alone members of India's second largest political party!!

blaming the victim for not speaking out is hardly a way to give vent to anger and frustration.

tahmedji, yes, we should not find fault in the lady, because that would not be right.

But should Indians:

(1) Let those who are in jail for raping her out of the jail?

(2) Accept and believe that she was raped by a mob, dragged through the streets, while the police watched and did nothing?

Those are real practical issues at some point in time. It's been a few months already. What should Indians who do not wish to find fault in the lady do now to addres those practical isues? What would you do specficaly in relation to those issues if you were in the position of these Indians?

What are the the practical alternatives?

I am not giving the criminals a pass at all. I am angry and frustrated that she is not participating. Perhaps you can't understand this. I compare her with Bhanwari Devi, who only had her husband and still kept fighting. Of course everyone is different, maybe she just can't do it, but then the rapist will get away. Is that a good thing?
And don't ask where the Pope was when she was raped. Having friends doesn't mean bad things will never happen to you. I had a break-in some years ago despite having friends. I used to get groped in India despite having friends.People who are raped, assaulted, murdered all usually do have friends. Having friends means someone will support you after everything is over.
If she doesn't participate, and can't participate, the Church needs to stop blaming the Government of Orissa for not doing anything.

Kaal, let tahmed get the answer from his favorite bloodstained coat hanger. :-)

#136 kaalchakra sahib: indians should just stop trying to find fault in the nun. if you cant bring yourself to express sympathy for her or disgust at the perpetrators and their enablers, dont say anything at all.

that is all i am "asking of the indians" (specifically you and nb).

ok, tahmedji, you tell us what Indians should do.

(1) Let those who are in jail for raping her out of the jail?

(2) Accept and believe that she was raped by a mob, dragged through the streets, while the police watched and did nothing?

kaalchakra sahib: please dont give me these lawyer-like arguments. these are your fellow indian citizens, for God's sake. not even evil Pakis.

#131 nb: where was the pope when this woman was raped? you think those pope stands with a stick next to every christian in india? and you think BJP cant reach her if she is out of orrissa, or even out of india??

for some of your rabid countrymen on chowk i wouldnt ask them to have a heart. the reason i am asking you is because i cant believe someone as sensible and well educated like you can have such a distorted view whereby you blame the victim and give the criminals a pass!!

tahmedji, the lady has the support of the local archbishop, who lives in Orissa. As do many many other Christians. We have no evidene that Hindus have told her that they will kil her if she 'opened her mouth.' As a matter of fact, she does so regularly.

Again, rightly or wrongly, people have suffered (may be they deserved that) from her allegations. Many people are in jail, waiting for her to at least cooperate with the police.

That is what we expect from every human woman who is raped (may be, after a couple of months, if needed). People's patience is running thin, even if they are totally friendly and understanding toward her.

We surely don't want people to kept in jail indefinitely over this issue, will we? Tomorrow if a Hindu woman and made allegatons that a mob of Christians raped her, we will need SOME evidence that that really happened. It would be reasonble to expect her to at least work with the police.

Otherwise, we are promoting complete anarchy.

#129 well said again, madani sahib. In the US, "bhangis" eat at the same table as Hamidm sahib, and he doesnt even know that.

Tahmed, are you saying the Church does not stand by its own? Even as a Hindu, I resent that. They have always supported her. The Pope is backing her, who more can you need? Think of all the rape victims who are poor, alone and friendless.
Don't tell me to have a heart. I knew when I wrote that thread that some Pakistani would accuse me of being on the side of her attacker/s. I just didn't think it would be you.
And she is not going back to Orissa anyway, so she is not at risk from anyone in Orissa. I just realised you may not know this, but she is from Kerala.

Re: # 112

shankar mian,

..... i have already issued that fatwa against faruk mian ..... indian moslems are perhaps the most pathetic moslems of all - there are a few good 'house moslems', but most of them are paki fifth columnists who are plotting to overthrow the hindoo regime in india and establish the khilafat .........

Re: # 120 You have point but we still have Bhangi business assigned to Christians. Caste has move power thant even religion. Scratch little and every pakistani is caste concious. One English lady of Daily news wrote article about and gave good descrition saying Caste is well and alive and doing well in Pakistan. In fact she was surprised. Arjun can get that article.

It is like color complexion. we all say it is wrong to be fair and wishing to have fair complexion is reactionary and unpatrotic. But after all that talk we revert back to same trhink as color concious is in our blood along with caste. Just like Ugliness is not bad or wrong but we do not try to compensate disadvantaged person. Not good looking are worst discriminated but can not do any thing. If woman good looking and car stops on motor way all Punjabi Mundas will stop and try to help but if woman is looking ugly and drivers says Saab let us stop and help, boss says shut up press on petrol paddle and go away fast. Our minds are totally screwed upI thionk.
Anyway good night. bye

nb #124 where were all these "friends" you say she has when she was being raped? have a heart. she may not bow to your favorite god, but the nun is a human being like you.

Is Kashmir key to Afghan peace?
Barack Obama says resolving the Indian-Pakistani dispute over Kashmir will be a goal of his presidency, ending eight years of silence on the issue.
By Mark Sappenfield | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
and Shahan Mufti | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
from the November 21, 2008 edition

E-mail a friend Print this Letter to the Editor Republish ShareThisE-mail newsletters RSS Daily podcast | 11.20.08 Pat Murphy talks with
Monitor staff writer Mark Sappenfield about how the Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan affects Afghanistan.

Subscribe iTunes | More Audio
NEW DELHI; and ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN - As part of his push to find new solutions to the war in Afghanistan, President-elect Barack Obama is considering a new diplomatic push on Kashmir, reversing eight years of American silence on the issue.

Mr. Obama has argued that Pakistan will not fully commit to fighting the insurgency it shares with Afghanistan until it sheds historic insecurities toward India. Talks about Kashmir, the central point of contention between the two nuclear rivals, are among the "critical tasks for the next administration," Obama said in an interview last month with Time magazine.

It is a strategy that worries Indians, who suggest the Pakistani Army is blackmailing Obama to support its claims. Yet security analysts say the Afghan insurgency has roots in the power struggle between India and Pakistan and cannot be solved without a regional approach.

"It will be very hard to put Afghanistan on a long-term positive path without alleviating some of the Indo-Pakistan tensions," says Xenia Dormandy of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University in Cambridge, Mass.

Such ideas would appear to fit well with the doctrines of Gen. David Petraeus, who oversaw a significant improvement in law and order in Iraq. He is now the commander of American forces in the entire region, which includes Afghanistan.

General Petraeus has been an open advocate of regional diplomacy as a key counterinsurgency tactic. On Oct. 15, he told a round table of Washington Post reporters that in seeking solutions to Afghanistan, "there may be opportunities with respect to India."

The goal would be to build a level of trust between India and Pakistan, freeing Pakistan from its historic fear of India, with which it has fought three wars. The surest way to do this, Obama has said, is to find a solution to Kashmir – the state split between each but claimed in full by both.

"We should try to resolve the Kashmir crisis so that [Pakistan] can stay focused – not on India, but on the situation with those militants," he told MSNBC on Oct. 31.

Obama went further in the Time interview, mentioning he has spoken with former President Bill Clinton about becoming a special envoy to the region – a comment that has been front-page news in India and Pakistan.

Nothing could be more damaging to American interests in the region, says Raja Mohan, a member of India's National Security Advisory Board. He claims Indo-Pakistan relations are better than they have ever been, citing the recent opening of trade between Pakistan - and-Indian-controlled Kashmir as something that would have been unthinkable in the past.

Moreover, he suggests India and Pakistan have behind the scenes made significant progress on the issue of Kashmir, to the point that the two nations have a tentative road map for how to resolve the crisis. It was scuppered only by the collapse of former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's regime in August.

Bush steered clear of Kashmir

The progress was partly the result of the Bush administration's decision to steer clear of Kashmir, says Mr. Mohan. Entering the fray now would only disrupt the delicate balance, making it appear as if the US was merely trying to placate Pakistan in return for its support in the war against terror.

In such a case, Mohan says, India might have a hard time winning concessions for a fair deal: "So long as the Pakistani Army thinks that the Americans are on their side, they're not going to deal with India."

Both Obama and his top South Asia adviser, Bruce Riedel, have spoken of the need to be discreet. In a 2007 teleconference for the journal Foreign Affairs, Mr. Riedel said: "I would urge the administration to seize the opportunity to quietly, but forcefully, push for a resolution there."

In the interview he called Kashmir "the itch that has driven Pakistan towards supporting terrorism for the last 20 years." Indeed, many experts say the enmity – for which Kashmir is the most potent symbol – has shaped security in the region, including Afghanistan.

Rivalry plays out in Afghanistan

For years, the mutual mistrust has led India and Pakistan to play their own version of the Great Game in Afghanistan. India has consistently been Afghanistan's main ally in the region. But Pakistan sees Afghanistan as its strategic backyard, which under no circumstances can be yielded to Indian influence.

Fears are stoked by the memories of 1971, when the Indian Army helped Bengalis secede from Pakistan to form Bangladesh. With Afghanistan historically claiming a significant chunk of Pakistan as its own, Pakistanis worry that an Indian-backed Afghanistan could dismember Pakistan further.

"Pakistan is the only country in South Asia that stands between India's complete hegemony in this region," says Fahmida Ashraf, an analyst at the Institute for Strategic Studies in Islamabad, a thinktank funded by the Pakistan government.

Repeatedly, Pakistan's Army has acted to prevent this from happening. It has done this by cultivating networks of militants as a proxy army. In Afghanistan, the Pakistan-backed mujahideen chased out the Soviet Union, India's ally. Then the Pakistan-backed Taliban took control of the country, preventing it from falling into the hands of pro-India Northern Alliance warlords.

This proxy war continues. India has invested $750 million and pledged $450 million more to the government of President Hamid Karzai, who is strongly pro-India. India is Afghanistan's largest trade partner. And it has taken the provocative step of opening consulates in two cities sitting on the border with Pakistan – Jalalabad and Kandahar.

Pakistan claims Indian intelligence agencies are using these consulates as bases, though it has never made this evidence public. Generally speaking, the allegations are that India is funding separatist militants in the Pakistani province of Balochistan.

"India wants to destabilize [Pakistan's tribal areas] and Balochistan," said Rahman Malik, a Pakistani government security adviser during a trip to Washington.

Analysts say this might be true, but only to a small degree. Militants "might be getting some support from India, but it's not anywhere near what the Pakistanis like to suggest," says Marvin Weinbaum, an analyst at the Middle East Institute in Washington.

Privately, a Pakistani diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity agrees. India's involvement in the unrest along Pakistan's western front "might be no more than 5 percent of all the trouble out there."

But publicly, Pakistan "is basing its Afghan and Indian policy on its perception," says Mr. Weinbaum.

In July, militants struck the Indian Embassy in Kabul with a bomb blast that killed 41 people. American intelligence agencies have said they have evidence that Pakistan's intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) directorate, was involved.

"Even today, the Pakistani military sees India as the threat," says Ms. Dormandy, of Harvard. "Until that attitude changes, you're not going to see Pakistan step back from its historically strong use of militant assets to affect foreign policy."

There are signs that this attitude is beginning to change. Pakistan is now fighting many of the militants it once sheltered in Bajaur and Swat in northern Pakistan. Obama's intent would be to accelerate this process and send a clear message to Pakistan.

"Why do you want to keep on being bogged down with [India and Kashmir], particularly at a time where the biggest threat now is coming from the Afghan border?" he told Time. "I think there is a moment where potentially we could get their attention."

Kaalchakra: ever thought that perhaps the pious hindus of orrissa have told the nun that they will kill her if she opens her mouth to anyone?? or are pious hindus too pious for anything like that??

Look, one understands the need to believe that the lady was raped by a mob, paraded naked, and the police did nothing.

There are ten real human beings (not very good ones, no doubt) - a father-son pair among them, lying in jail ove those (probably true) allegations.

But we can't let that sitution continue for ever. At some point in time, the lady has to step and work with the police.

That is what we expect from every other woman in a similar, very tragic situation.

I do feel, all this will be a moot point, and the lady may be finally ready to cooperate with the police. If those in custody, or others are guilt, hang them.

Tahmed, I just read your other post. How can I not question what is happening here where the story changes every day? She is unwittingly aiding and abetting her rapists to escape by not participating in their ID parade. She now says a "Hindu man" saved her from being gang raped, but she doesn't know what he or the rapist look like. The priest who swore that saw her being gang raped seems to have disappeared. There is no forensic evidence against the rapist at all. If she had not been a nun, it would all have been over by now. It is her duty to help bring them to justice.

Re: # 120 Arjun's superiority complex gets massaged when he throws his bags in taxi and taximan opens door. Then he must be smoking state express and feeling he has put world on fire.And then he gives "little" to humilate man and must be feeling great. He has some "taxi" problem.
His bosses may not be happy for wasting companies resources and xroxing.
I was never big boss but people in place I worked use to abuse and misuse Xrox machine. People used to copy books and toss pages as they had little spot. So I told them you can do all cheating but you will be charged 1 Rs for 300 pages and put man at Xrox machine to do xroxing for them. The use dropped by 95% in one day. I got raise .
Basically never give anything free and subsidise bad behaviour and people left to themselves will steal.

Tahmed, I'm surprised you know who attacked her, since she can't identify them herself.(BTW,She is also now saying she was not paraded naked in the street) Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't think. As a woman, I feel she is letting the side down by not cooperating with the investigation and by making statements which she then contradicts herself. She is not alone and friendless as many rape victims are.

Re: # 120 I do not want to criticise food I have not eaten. But crepe etc is weak man or womens food and laced with over spiced curries which can kill you if you eat that for 60 years. There is no "stuff" in that. THat is reflected in waek management capacity of India compared to Pakistan. Some thing is race related but also we are made by what we eat, drink and breathe.As Romair said is write if you eat that stuff you can not have managerial capacity which is basic job and fire and fire and then go for power lunch or dinner and dominate people and make them paranoid and afraid. Roti and Dal has that punch that can not be same as rice and watery soup. That is reason Indian army has problem and theior military officers have no initiative to take over and rule. General carryout out orders is wrong to our mind. The generals should be like lions and tiger always angry and prawl and looking for opportunities and planning moves like wild tigers.
It is just general question so some body can answer who are having some training in law.
This indus treaty is for all time valid ? ( Some times tearties are time bound , like now there is no legal basis for Durand line as it has gone beyod its prescribed time) Can treaties are Perpetual ? Can Pakistan or India withdraw from it ?
Some body like YLH can answer but he is always lost in fog of 1947.

#119 excellent post, madani sahib. this madman is merely reflecting the mindset of the caste-ridden hindu society where "dignity of labor" is an unheard of concept.

Re: # 115
Arjun why you have hatred for hard working people driving taxies. They just provide transportation in style. They make more money in NY than than your governers and educated code coolies and in recession proof enviornment and and have not to pay taxes on each dollar they make in USA cities. I read American people have great regard for people who provide good service. In pakistan there is dignity of Labor. Just code coolie is not only job in world.
Good night.

akcheema:

Dasa is like a crepe. As hamidm described it, it has a crispy exterior (if well made) with a filling of potatoes, onions or any other stuffing. It is served with a lentil cum vegetable based soup called 'sambhar' and coconut chutney. I don't know how hamidm liked sambhar, it invariably has heeng in it.

BTW, the most variety (30 or so) of dosas I saw was on the menu of a restaurant in Dhaka. It had a choice of many non-vegetarian stuffings. In India, I have never seen dosa with a non-veg stuffing.

I also think that with the increasing tourist traffic from Indians in Lahore, anyone who opens the first dosa shop will be quite successful.

Cheema sahib: like i wrote to nb, she is a reasonable, well educated (a doctor) individual. So, i am merely reminding her of this in the hope that she will not stop questioning the veracity of the Second Nun's Tale (the way Chaucer had the nun singing out her story of Cecilia whom the roman thugs wanted to worship Jupiter the way the BJP thugs want the nun to worship the elephant man).

hamidm: you ate a couple of lousy dosas and presume to provide tips on how improve on the oily potatoes they have inside. bulleye happens to know the all the south indian restaurant owners, and they pay him Clinton-level speaking fees to talk about dosas. Wait till he wakes up and provides you with a written prediction of how the industry will evolve.

#114 Posted by shankar on November 22, 2008 5:01:12 am

HP has the midas touch...sorta....his cab has gold colored paint on the interior...

HP sain,

I wonder if you Sindhi Muslims take a page from your Sindhi Hindu counterparts. Those guys really have the Midas touch.

I cant understand why India should waste precious resources on aiding Afghanistan. All this "strategy" is bs. Lets face it; mineral wealth from Central Asia will NOT flow through Afghanistan....not in a couple of decades. Its a failed state & will continue to fail...sad, but true.

India could use all that "aid" for her own starving, unwashed masses.

Faruk,

Watch out!
One of these days a fatwa of "house nigger" awaits you from the wrong side of the border:)

HP: nuke deal will never happen...
Oops - the deal happened...

since then he is jumping around with a thousand chillis up his a33... what a chutya paki...

#69 by rabiawsti

Not that we didn't know this, but now we can safely ignore you next time you whine on and on about Jinnah the evil communalist

Who cares about what you think? I have my opinions and I will voice them. I don't write to win brownie points with Pakis.

#59 by bulleya

baluchistan cannot survive without pakistan.....it is heavily subsidized by pakistan......kashmir can survive without india......pakistan can support it, and it maybe able to support itself through trade and tourism......

As usual, Captain Clueless is clueless! Balochistan has a seaport and more natural resources than the rest of Pakistan combined, and yet it cannot make it on its own. A landlocked Kashmir with tourism as its only revenue generator will make it big! No wonder Captain Clueless was kicked out of the PAF because even in a place where mediocrity is the norm, the man couldn't make it.

Re: # 106

cheema sahib,

... sorry, i didn't mean to alarm you ..... maybe they will drift off to antartica and chase penguins .....

.... a dosa is very thin rice flour and lentil stuffed with potato bhujia and served with some weird chutney - it is rather good ..... i like mine stuffed with spiced meat and a fried egg ..... i am sure you can find it at some fine indian establishment in your part of the world ..... some dravidian refugees from india in karachi also eat that stuff .... strange, but good with beer ..... of course, it is not as good as good old karahi ghost or lamb sajji ....

is 'do-sa' a plural of 'ek-sa'?

Re: # 105; hamidm sahib
[[i couldn't care less if they broke off and drifted away to join australia .......]]

the 'hajooj and majooj' have already started colonising the red continent sir ... if something isn't done soon, even God is not going to be able to help us! ... we'll all be eating 'dosas' and turning vegetarian in droves

btw ... what the heck is a dosa??

Re: # 103

tahmed,

... where is orissa and why should we pakis be concerned about it ? .......

........look, i will admit that i went to see an indian filum with mrs hamidm and her friends at a theater a couple of years ago; i will also admit that i am guity of eating a dosa at a hindoo's house and kind of liking it; if you insist, i will also admit that i have a hindoo drinking budddy (but he is not vegetarian) and i have had kingfisher beer (not bad)........ but that is the extent of my involvement with these ... these ... hajooj and mahjooj who live on the wrong side of the border .......... i never, ever, read hindoo papers and i am proud that i have no idea whether madras is north or south of delhi ...... and why should i? ..... if these people gave up kashmir i couldn't care less if they broke off and drifted away to join australia .......

..... as far as i am concerned, a nun being raped in orissa is like a tree falling in the amazon jungle .........

Re: # 103; tahmed sahib

I concur sir ... however I don't think nb was trying to justify those atrocities ... and I am sure she'd condemn all that occured in Orissa in the recent past quite openly. she is one of the most 'just' persons around on chowk

It is not that uncommon in the third world for the 'stories' to change a little bit ... depending on local pressures ... that in no way dimishes the impact of such atrocities on the victims involved

this is what I advocate as a 'balanced argument' ... both India and Pakistan have to learn to rise above their inner insecurities and acknowledge the horrendous acts of crime that take place daily ... and majority directed against the 'have-nots' who, most of the time, don't stand a chance of getting some justice due to 'local' pressures and constraints ... it is truly sad

nb #102: the nun was raped, brutalized and paraded naked in the streets. put yourself in her shoes, then think again about why it is her "shortcomings" that are the problem to you - not the shortcomings of the cowardly lowlife who attacked and raped her, the rats in police uniforms who did nothing to protect her. in other words, it is the victim whose "faults" you are quick to point to, not the criminals running lose.

the lowlife who actually attacked her are not even as important as the BJP thugs who set them lose. is the BJP hierarchy in orrissa behind this attack unknown to anyone in that state or elsewhere in india that they need the already traumatized nun to come forth??

as a woman, and a well educated woman, you should not need to be reminded of this by anyone.

there is no need for endless discussions on this issue, nor anything personal - so lets just discuss this (or you can chose not to further discuss it) here on the fp. Why is this "tribal instinct" so strong in the sub-continent that every issue is seen through these communal lens. even by otherwise perfectly sensible, well-educated people like yourself (i am not even talking about those driven clinically insane by communalism in india).

The turnout in Kashmir has been high so far. Obviously this is only one stage, but at least acknowledge the truth. Even the headline provided by HP said nothing about the poll turnout. Some of the violence has been between Mufti's people and the NC. Lone's daughter is contesting the elections.
Tahmed32, suggesting I called the Orissa nun a terrorist is a low blow from you. I am asking that she and the church cooperate, else people like parthaab get a free pass to say women make up stories. Rape victims always find it hard to do ID parades, but they get support from friends and family, and they do it even though it feels like death. You cannot refuse to turn up to repeated parades and then claim the government is not acting. Even the accused have rights.
And that's all I will say on this thread. Kindly open a thread on unplugged if you wish to say more, or say it on my thread.

20k more dandas up paki mohammeds...

U.S. eyes "surge" of over 20,000 for Afghanistan
Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:16pm EST

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By David Morgan

CORNWALLIS, Nova Scotia (Reuters) - The Pentagon is considering a plan to send more than 20,000 troops to Afghanistan over the next 12 to 18 months to help safeguard elections and quell rising Taliban violence, officials said on Friday.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he and top commanders had discussed sending five brigades to Afghanistan, including four brigades of combat ground forces as well as an aviation brigade, which a defense official said would consist mainly of support troops. An Army combat brigade has about 3,500 soldiers.

Gates said much of the infusion could take place before Afghanistan holds elections by next autumn.

"I think it's important that we have a surge of forces before the election," said Gates, who stressed no decision on troop deployments had been taken.

"We've had some very preliminary discussions," he told reporters after meeting to discuss southern Afghanistan with his counterparts from NATO countries with troops deployed in the region.

Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said more support troops, also known as "enablers," could also head to Afghanistan as Gates considers a request by U.S. Army Gen. David McKiernan, the top commander of NATO and U.S. forces in the country.

"The commanders are looking for well north of 20,000 forces. Gates wishes to fulfill the commanders' request," Morrell told reporters as the U.S. defense chief returned from Cornwallis.

Violence in Afghanistan has surged to the highest levels since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion toppled the country's Taliban government.

An Army combat brigade is already scheduled to arrive in eastern Afghanistan in January to begin training Afghan forces.

Most of the remaining forces, which could begin deploying as early as next spring, would likely head to poppy-growing southern Afghanistan where commanders say the NATO force of 18,000 troops is too small to contend with an increasingly confident Taliban insurgency.

There are now some 70,000 Western forces in Afghanistan, including 32,000 U.S. forces -- 14,500 under NATO command and 17,500 under a U.S. command.

'SURGE'

Gates' use of the term "surge" to describe the influx drew parallels with the 2007 U.S. force build-up that placed an extra 30,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and contributed to a sharp decline in violence there.

"The key is how do we reverse the trends of the last couple of years or so in terms of rising violence and create a better security environment in which economic and civic development can go ahead and take place," Gates said.

HP is commenting on nuclear technology?

HAHAHAHAHA....

Hamidm,

You would deserve the fate that you fear the most......you play with fire and you get fire.....

As I said earlier..even a Pakistani murtid is worse than an Indian Wahabi........

India’s program is all about Pakistan.
http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/indiagrowingcapacit y.pdf

“India has several political and technical motivations for making low and highly enriched uranium. Interviews with senior Indian officials show that they felt pressure to match Pakistan’s accomplishments with gas centrifuges. More importantly, Indian officials have expressed interest in having an indigenous source of enriched uranium for domestic research and power reactors, thermonuclear weapons, and naval reactors. The RMP does not appear large enough to provide enriched uranium for all of these requirements, particularly the Tarapur reactors. India’s recent actions to import low enriched uranium for the Tarapur reactors underscore this conclusion�

"What is surprising to me is that u are accused of having "cantonment mentality" by Aasif and the like..and HP is supposedly the enlightened civilian..but your posts tend to give the opposite view?"

Istuka,
You are still living in the 70s stuka. Things are different now. Politics in the area is changing fast. Forget about the old paradigms.

Nuke are no guarantees but nice to have...

Now Pakistan has made two more giant rectors in Khushab.
It is estimated each will produce enough Plutonium for 50 nukes a year.

http://www.isis-online.org/images/khushab/reactor.html

http://www.is is-online.org/images/khushab/heavyh2o.html

http://www.isis-online.org/images/ khushab/comparison.html

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/new khushab.pdf

Third reactor... a big one at Khushab.
http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/ThirdKhushabReactor. pdf

TAhmed: HP is gassing about India sending troops to Afghanistan. There are very limited troops providing security to some of the civil projects. There have been numerous Indian nationals killed.

What is surprising to me is that u are accused of having "cantonment mentality" by Aasif and the like..and HP is supposedly the enlightened civilian..but your posts tend to give the opposite view?

America Shocked to Learn India Has a Navy
And they sunk a pirate ship! Whoa!

This was the headline!

#HP: the nuclear weapon is actually pakistan's insurance policy against losing turf to any other nation. and by the same token, india may extend influence economically, but on land at least will remain hemmed in by pakistan to the west. india may contribute a few token brigades to isaf (as some arab nations and turkey have done in the past), but i doubt if the afghans will permit a substantive force from india.

so, the real danger to pakistan remains taliban/al qaeda, regardless of what retired generals on pakistan tv rant about.

wait..pakistan has a navy????

Faruk: Agreed on the first point. It's amazing that the same feudal who lives of the labor of hundreds of workers and denies any sort of self determination become all sanctimonious. Flip side, I find the Indian morality play hard to digest - though lately we have thankfully become a nation less prone to giving lectures.

wrt the second point, that was the case in the mid 90s. By the turn of the millenium, I think the ardour had cooled down on their side as well.

Indians are not going to Afghanistan. This has not been reported anywhere. The only reason Indians are going to Somalia is because every third day an Indian crew manned ship is being hijacked. Considering that a lot of your folk are in the merchant navy as well, your Navy should be doing the same

re: stuka #80
Kashmir is a nice distraction that the Pakistani elite have against what Hamid calls the unwashed masses. But you have to admire how they have managed to brainwash an entire nation.

When I was studying in the US you had to just mention Kashmir at one of those desi get togethers and all the Pakistanis would huddle together and try and solve the Kashmir problem and leave the food to the rest of us. It's amazing, it never fails..


Regards,

Faruk

Well I agree with you Tahmed. and I welcome Indians in Afghanistan. They need to get a taste of what it is like to be a regional power. When US gives you money, you ought to be ready to serve.

The Pakistani generals are mad because they don't control Afghanistan anymore. Just remember in the recent history (about 150 yrs) Afghanistan was technically ruled from India. There was a break from 1947 until 1992 but now things will get back to normal.

#86 HP: they are getting this provincial autonomy, as one of the few actions the zardari govt has taken. so, if what you say is correct, we should see the baluch nationalist movement slowing down.

Tahmed,
Baluch are part Kurd. There is resentment in Irani Baloch too but they are barely 2% of the iranian population. Baluch do not agree with the Pakistan state and the army politically but historical connections with the areas now Pakistan are so enormous that the Baluch would find it hard to breakaway from Pakistan. They would settle for more autonomy which will happen anyway in Pakistan.

HP: PTV was saying india is also sending two brigades to ISAF in afghanistan. and a retired lt. gen. (one of those who made the mess in afghanistan) was ranting about how this means pakistan is now surrounded by india.

if i could slap anyone's face, i would love to slap the face of these clowns in pakistan (TV talkers, ex-generals, and so forth) who let out hot air about "sovereignty" while ignoring the ground realities - the fact that thousands of arab/central asians have already been allowed into pakistan without a passport but with guns and suicide belts under musharraf.

re: HP # 74

proof ? It can't be that hard for you to find the post.

Regards,

Faruk

HP #77 the baluch are distributed between iran, afghanistan and pakistan. you dont hear of a baluch separatist movement in iran or afghanistan. that supports my view that baluch independence is about greed for the natural resources of baluchistan by baluch sardars in pakistan.

and i suspect all "freedom movements" (including kashmir) have less to do with the welfare of the ordinary people and more about the welfare of the fat cats (or fat cat wannabes).

hamidm2
I think I have mentioned an inconvenient truth.


Regards,

Faruk

On TV the breaking news is that Indians are sending more ships to the Somalian coast. I am glad that Indians are finally ready to fight the pirates. They just don't know the price of this enthusiasm. Good luck Indians..you are asking for it!

Reality about Kashmir is that it enables elite like HamidM to quaff whisky while pointing to India / Kashmir as the enemy for whom the sacred forst of Islam must continue to do battle. Meanwhile the same elite will shove a boot up islamist butt when their status quo is threatened. This is notwithstanding the Muslims of the Kashmir valley wanting freedom

#75 Posted by stuka
And Faruk has always been a Muslim. U might be confusing him with someone else"

No, I am not. You can go back and check his old posts.
There was no turnout in the muslim majority areas in Kashmir. I have read that In Pakistan papers and the media is Pakistan is free and India it is not.We know that papers and TV in Kashmir are heavily censored.

romair #59
I see strong parallels in the situation in Baluchistan and Kashmir, a fraction of the people are fighting to secede. Whats the big difference...

Regards,

Faruk

Tahmed,

Northern Baluchistan was part of Afghanistan for a long time and it a Pashtoon majority area. If there is any Pashtoonistan, this area will go to Pashtoonistan. The Baluch have no problem with that as they don't have any claim on that area. The current Baluchistan borders were created by the British after they captured and annexed the area.

i think the earlier kashmir polling was in aras not controlled by militants, hence high turnout. next one wont have high turnout.

rabia, you are right, we are way beyond morality in kashmir.

And Faruk has always been a Muslim. U might be confusing him with someone else.

Re: # 66 Posted by hamidm2 on November 21, 2008 10:46:18 am

hamid mian,

[..but i have never met a baluch .....] Where have they gone? maybe you did not travel enough towards meerjawa close to the iranian border. You could've seen Baluchi villages spread along the way.

Did you know that originally these Baluchis were people from Turkmenistan? And then somewhere along the line some makranis were thrown in this mix. How could a makrani claim to be a Baluchi? It seems that makranis are celebrating Obama's win.

what say you?

Rabia: The communalization of the Indian response to Kashmir is a response to the blatant communalization of the seperatist movement to begin with. It was Muslim Kashmiris who hounded out Kashmiri Hindus and killed many Pandits. Your point would be valid if the communal behavior of Kashmiris was a response to Indian Hindu communal behavior. That indeed was not the case. Article 370 was maintained. The givernment that rigged elections in 1987 was also dominated b y Kashmiri Muslims of the NC. The Hindus have had no political power in Kashmir since 1948. If anything, Kashmiri Muslims dominate the state bureaucracy RELATIVE TO HINDUS AND MUSLIMS of Jammu and Kargil. Yet, the victim mentality is as if they are being pushed into gas chambers. In such a scenario, a communal reaction is entirely understandable.

HP: Yaar, chutia baatey kar raha hai.. the election was a few days back and the report was of 62% in first phase. Yes, there is curfew today because the Hurriyat panicked after seeing turnout and have tried to create civil disturbnces. Check out the turn out in Phase 2 in 2 days. You can then aggregate the total to get your number.

"... indian moslems, like faruk mian, are worse than the hindoos"
Hamid,
Faruk mian changes his religion frequently. Couple of years ago he was a parsi and then he became a Muslim. I have seen this trend on this blog. Many Hindus call themselves any thing but Hindu even though they support Hindutva and RSS with gusto.

hamidm #66 your pathan relatives chased the baluch out of their land. panjab as usual took on Pakistan's burden and allowed them to settle there. 30 years ago a baluch fellow i recall was saying that he hoped to die fighting in the mountains of baluchistan - then got married to a panjaban from lahore and has never been heard from since (seen, but not heard).

This is what Greater Kasmir is reporting. I don't know what you read.

UNDECLARED CURFEW IN CITY, TOWNS
ANTI-ELECTION PROTESTS IN GANDERBAL, VARMUL, ISLAMABAD; 26 INJURED

ZULFIKAR MAJID
Srinagar, Nov 21: For the fourth time in a month and just two days ahead of second phase of assembly elections, undeclared curfew was imposed in Srinagar and other major towns of the Valley on Friday to thwart the Coordination Committee’s programme to stage protests. At least 26 persons were injured in police and CRPF action on protest rallies in Ganderbal and Varmul, reports said.
There was no official announcement about the curfew, but the para-military CRPF troopers and police personnel who were deployed in strength in every nook and corner of the city, restricted the movement of

#51
"Who cares about the Kashmiris? We're only interested in the land"

thanks for revealing your true face and that of your pathetic compatriots like Faruk here. Not that we didn't know this, but now we can safely ignore you next time you whine on and on about Jinnah the evil communalist -- anyone who talks about the citizens of his own country like this hasn't the slightest right to judge the morality of separatist movements.

HP makes to points

1. Baluchistan will remain in Pakistan

2. Kashmir will come out of India

Conclusion: HP has recently been promoted to general rank in Pakistan Army.

Congrats HP. Good show..make sure you get your plot of land near the Indian border. That's where real estate prices will increase when Indian tourists come to Lahore for shopping and tourism.

HP: Which papers are you reading? Greaterkashmir.com reported a turnout of over 62% in other news...

PDP denies ticket to sex-tainted Khan

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GK NEWS NETWORK


Srinagar, Nov 21: The Peoples Democratic Party has denied mandate to Ghulam Hassan Khan, former MLA Shopian whose name surfaced in the sexual exploitation case of 2007.
Khan was elected in 2002 defeating NC rival Sheikh Muhammad Rafi by a margin of 720 votes. Khan polled 4,083 votes and Rafi 3363 votes. The PDP has this time given mandate to Abdul Razak Zawoora.
The senior leader of the PDP Tariq Hamid Qarra said he has no information why Khan was not given the mandate.
Ghulam Hassan Khan however accused the party of emulating the National Conference. Asked has sexual exploitation case prompted the party to deny him the ticket, Khan said, “I was favourite of Mufti Sayed till Thursday, November 20. And now all of sudden they have denied me the mandate,� Khan said. He said the party president Mehbooba Mufti and its patron Mufti Muhammad Sayed had assured him that he would be given the mandate. But now at the last moment they have denied me the ticket, Khan said. He said Muftis stabbed him in the back. Khan said he would contest from the constituency as independent candidate. Khan would file the nomination papers on November 24.
Mehbooba Mufti, the president of PDP, said the decision about the mandate was taken after the recommendation of the mandate committee. She said it wouldn’t divide the party votes in the constituency.

Re: # 64

hp mian,

.... i was born in quetta and half my family still lives there, but i have never met a baluch ..... from my point of view everyone who lives in quetta is a pushtun with a few hazaras thrown in ......... the only baluchs i have met are in karachi or in dg khan which is in the punjab ..... who are they and where do they live? ....

... indian moslems, like faruk mian, are worse than the hindoos - they are always trying to prove their loyalty to the mother land by being more hindoo than morarji desai .... they are worse than .... than masadi mian and mirzaees

nb is back to her lying self and quoting some RSS rag. The turn out in Kashmir was extremely low. She needs to read Kashmir's papers and not some statement issued by the Government of India which is as Obama said needs to figure out what kind of sh*t it is doing in Kashmir.

Here is what Obama said about Kashmir.
From an interview Barack Obama gave to Time a few days before the election:

"Kashmir in particular is an interesting situation where that is obviously a potential tar pit diplomatically. But, for us to devote serious diplomatic resources to get a special envoy in there, to figure out a plausible approach, and essentially make the argument to the Indians, you guys are on the brink of being an economic superpower, why do you want to keep on messing with this?"

Faruk is a typical ignorant Indian who probably has read about Baluchistan in some RSS rag. Kashmir and Baluchistan are two different ball games and there is no comparison.

Let me say this Baluchistan will survive whether it is in Pakistan or outside of it. So will Kashmir outside or inside India. In Baluchistan the tribal system and the tribal Sardars are one major source of problem. The tribal Sardars sensing the alienation within Baluchistan, have captured the movement and use their position to save the tribal system and continue working on both sides of fences. They support the army and then turn around and support all movement democratic or separatist in Baluchistan. This is a ridiculous contradiction and will take its own time to correct.

nb: i hear the kashmiris are receiving special training on how to singlehandedly attack and deflower mobs of pious hindu men from the terrorist nun at orrissa you were referring to on unplugged.

By the way, Nadeem, you haven't mentioned the latest twists in this drama. There was a high percentage turn out in the first phase of the state elections. The 'high-militancy' areas go to the polls tomorrow or the day after.
The other thing is the trans-border Kashmir trade. I understand fruit worth millions was taken off the trucks from the Indian Kashmir side, and it never got there or they never got paid for it. I would normally feel sorry for them, but I can't help finding it a little funny.

hamid mian,

What is going on with Nawaz?
-----------------------------------------------------
'N' joins PPP rally

It was actually a PPP show, already planned a day before, but the PML-N also decided to participate, in an apparent move to cool down the tempers on both sides after intervention from party’s top leadership.

It was none else but Punjab Minister for Law Rana Sana Ullah (who disgraced Punjab Governor, Huh!!) who announced on assembly flour on Thursday that Punjab Prison Minister Ch Abdul Ghafoor along with party MPAs will represent PML-N in PPP rally.

The participants were holding banners and placards inscribed with pro-Zardari slogans. The Chairing Cross, in front of Punjab Assembly, had also been decorated with banners carrying the slogans, “Qadam barhao sardr Zardari hum tumharay saath hain�. The participants of the rally also chanted the slogan, “Nawaz-Zardari Bhai Bhai�. Slogans like “Aik Zardari sab pe bhhari� and “kal bhe bb zinda thee, aaj bhe bb zinda hai�, were also raised by PPP men.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional /Lahore/21-Nov-2008/N-joins-PPP-rally/1

Re: # 56

faruk mian,

... if you hindoos are nice to the kashmiris they might let you have some of the water .....

Faruk#: in kashmir, the general fear that india has is that a majority (perhaps overwhelming majority) wants to break away from india.....

in baluchistan, pakistan has no such fear......barring the odd cry from a baluchi tribal leader, a majority of baluchis have never wanted to separate from pakistan......

baluchistan cannot survive without pakistan.....it is heavily subsidized by pakistan......kashmir can survive without india......pakistan can support it, and it maybe able to support itself through trade and tourism......

a better comparison of kashmir would be with east pakistan.....india supported the separation of bangladesh and supported it to get it back on its feet.....

regarding the waters in kashmir, there is already a deal with pakistan......this deal has held up through the 65 war, 71 war and kargil......india never stopped pakistan's water, during these wars, and pakistan has never done anything in kashmir to harm india's water sources, through militancy......

i think india may, now, be getting serious about a kashmir solution.....it is starting to realize that the militant taliban phenomenon will roll through pakistan and into india, if the region is not stabilized.......

re:tahmed32 #57
I think you have a few more Baluchi's to get rid off. That said, we probably should take a cue from you guys and get rid of people who don't want to be part of India.

Regards,

Faruk

Faruk: We got rid of the Baluchi guy who didnt want to be part of Pakistan.

Anyway - just 30 more years, the glacier feeding kashmir valley would be gone, kashmir valley becomes like ladakh that no one cares about. problem solved.

hamid mian,
on a serious note. Kashmir is the source of our water, we can't take any risks with that. You know how important fresh water will be in the next 50 years don't you.

Regards,

Faruk

re:hamidm2 #54
neither does the Baluchi want to be part of Pakistan, so when do you plan to free Baluchistan.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 53

but harish mian, the kashmiri does not want to be an indian any more than a bengali wanted to be a paki .... why is that so difficult to understand

#52 by hamidm2

..... it is this type of behaviour and rhetoric that reinforces the stereotype of the bloodthirsty bania with a knife under his armpit and ram ram on his lips .....

Hardly Hamidm sahib. There is nothing knife-under-armpit-ram-ram-on-lips about it, is it? The Kashmiri Muslim is free to live like any other Indian; but if he pines for his brethren, he can simply cross the LoC and make that journey. I'm sure the Paki rangers won't stop him.

Re: # 51

harish mian,

.... that wasn't very nice ..... it is this type of behaviour and rhetoric that reinforces the stereotype of the bloodthirsty bania with a knife under his armpit and ram ram on his lips ..... you guys are almost as bad as our wild-eyed jihadis

#50 by hamidm2

.... i really don't understand why you guys insist on keeping the poor kashmiris captive ....

Who cares about the Kashmiris? We're only interested in the land. To borrow from another Chowkie, all that the Kashmiri Muslim needs to do to reunite with his brethren in Pakistan is face Mecca and start walking till he reaches his destination.

Re: # 49

nkg,

....sure, we will take kashmiri moslems from other parts of india but don't try to slip in a few madrasis or, god forbid, biharis ...... not that anyone would mistake a dravidian for a aryan .... i really don't understand why you guys insist on keeping the poor kashmiris captive .... can't you tell by just looking at them that they don't belong in mother india - they are pakis who whould be reunited with their brethren in the wasteland ...... stop being so unreasonable

Re: # 44
hamidm2...
oh really!!! thank you sir for allowing us to keep Hyd...can you be little more generous to take kasmiri moslems from india? anyhow there is no desert, date tree, camel, cactus, sea in Kashmir. what will moslems do staying in such a crappy place?

Re: # 39
ahmed...
either you are naive or stupid....
India knows very well that Pakistan in very eager to include part of Kashmir. Pakistan tried all methods ( 4 wars, jihadi uprising....) and becoming weaker day by day...if you still dream that India will voluntarily hand over Kashmir to Pakistan then I have nothing to say more...BJ has already said, why Kashmiris moslems are not getting any international support, other than some moslem countries......

USA, with fresh wound from Vietnam War would take risk of war against USSR for the sake of Pakistan? That to for suppressing a legitimate democratic movement?...

please write with some sense....
Forget USA, why not China come forward during 1971? If Pak army and its brothers in terrorist cells in Muzaffarabad can attack india (1998/1999) to satisfy China, why should not china come forward to rescue Pakistan during 1971?

Pandit Ladduji Maharaj,

42, 43

I know that. I think you shud adress your posts to Kamath sahib, not to me.

Regards

#40 Posted by _arjun38

"the drones are falling outside the tribal areas now"

Drones are falling? Wouldn't that mean the Taliban are winning? Numskull, drones are dropping missiles, drones are not falling.

Re: # 44

Hamidm,

stop pandering to the Jehadis........... the game of partition was over in 1947 and you know the end result.........

it would be better for murtids like you!!

laddu mian,

......stop being so paranoid .... all we want is kashmir; you can keep hyderabad and lal qila .....

Majmdar ji,

Infact , any budging from the status -quo would be extremely harmful because Islami mind would consider that as a victory of Jehad and as a sign that Allah wants them to go for the end game of Jehad.

It is just too dangerous for the region to even consider giving away of even an inch of land to Islami Jehadi political movement of kashmir.

Re: # 23

"Then everybody will be happy. Pakistanis would have nothing to complain about this, " unfinished business of Partition"."

Majumdar ji,

You have little understanding of the Pakistan's Islami mind.

The notion of the so called "unfinished business" depends upon who interprets it and how? PAkistanis DO NOT consider Kashmir only as the unfinished business. It is actually " Hans ke liya hai pakistan , lad ke lenge hindustan" that is the cry of this "unfinished business".

Ask Hamza or Urstruly if the end game is reclamation of erstwhile muslim occupied lands or not?

Ask them whether they want see Paki flag on the top of lal qila or not?

Ask them if Hyderabad is part of the "unfinished business " or not?

Ask them if Jihad is "unfinished business" or not?

monkeyman #40 trying to be cleverer than you are by creating anti-US feelings among Pakistanis?? get jeed to get this spiteful, pee-wee brain of yours checked.

as for the substance, you spiteful little man, did your half-brain ever stop to wonder who is directing these drones to their targets??? Make a guess - it cant be too hard even for a dullard like you.

#39 Posted by ahmedmadani on November 20, 2008 3:38:51 pm

madani sahab...cripple american forces? surely you jest...the drones are falling outside the tribal areas now...and your army...it just whacked 9 in a family..including women and children...yup...allah's army whacking allah's chosen people...using artillery, no less...

Russians and Indians taking advantage.
Pakistans Imoportance or dependance on Pakistan is location. Without Karachi port and keeping supply line supplied is in control of GOP. If GOP does not want it can cripple and defeat American forces just by starving of Sooly moving day and night from Karachi and arms and petroleum and depriving of Pakistani bases. America knows it well and they are doing contingency studies not good as it will reduce leverage.
"Friday, November 21, 2008
Russia allows transit of Nato Afghanistan supplies

MOSCOW: Russia says Spain and Germany can ship supplies for NATO forces in Afghanistan across Russian territory despite tensions with the alliance. The Kremlin says President Dmitry Medvedev signed an agreement on Thursday allowing Spain to send the supplies to its troops serving as part of NATOís 51,000-strong contingent. The Foreign Ministry also said Germany will be allowed to use Russian railroads to ship supplies for its troops."

OPther thing Obama is not sensetive to Pakistani interests. His team has too many Indians. Now this indians may be americans but like watermellon top skin looks different than inside. Outside american inside INDIANS and caring for India.
Read following.
"
Gates held talks with the defence team of Barack Obama in Washington on Thursday, which was suggestive of opening a more substantive phase of the political transition at the Defence Department. Gates’s office sent guidelines to Pentagon staff late Wednesday outlining the rules for interacting with the transition team, which has 16 members including several people from the former Clinton administration while four of them are INDIANS".

After IMF tranche arrives is good time need to little squeeze life line of USA to address above Problems.
Coming nights are going to be pakistani enemies nights. Russians are still not able to forget that Pakistan and usa destroyed their Socialist paradise and Indians and pakistan are natural enemies and the state of war is going for 60 yewars.
Americans are smart and little squeezing and shooting few pilotless airmachines and "Relatiuonship will improve and soonfast they will write big checks. Use power or loose is real. There are worshippers of white man and they will not allow anything which damages the church of worshipping of whate man worshipping and showing humility to western elites.
Time has come to calculate the real account of what we got reward for joining War club of usa as Chaparasi ? Is it worthwhile? Is it worth getting f-16 and loosing part of land as USA stabbed by not moving 7th fleet when needed for defence of Pakistani in 1971. Did it put pressure on India for handing and transfer negotation of K.? Will they will do for K after they have finished and tired and left Afghanistan , we will be holding empty bags for hoping for their largeness. In american not sacraficing their men we will be used as cannon fodder and Talibs with Afghan warriers will be taking over all wild west as weeds grow.

By joining white man worshipping church for 60years has not helped for sure, 60 years journey from glorious start to nothing.

Let us pray hevenly power to kind, hope for best and prepare for worst.

Good day.

Pakis...
http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/20/top8.htm
This is going to be dangerous....

Re: # 34
ahmed...
it (since when....) was teaser......
"One Arab intelluctual and thinker professor......."
and you guys are delighted to get a certificate from an arab!!!!!oh god.....
nobody can talk about future...but what you saying needs large negative turn in indian system and quite positive twist in pakistani system....


coming back to the topic (serious)....
india will not hand over kashmir to pakistan. it may accept soft border for increased trade and commerce, if jihadi activities subside to large extent...that will benefit india commercialy as well as politicaly...indian military establishment is keen to move to china border with its latest equipments...india will love to see pakistan stay neutral in india-china matters...but then china is too powerful now...let us see,what is in future....AVB tried to do that in 1998/1999...

Ahmedmadani sahib,

One Arab intelluctual and thinker professor said Indians are blocked headed people and they have mental paralysis compared to Pakistanis. He predicted after some time Pakistan will be advanced nation as they are hard working honest people

Is Field Marshall Romair an Arab?

Regards

Re: # 33 Arjun.....I thought You have brain like computer , you can not read between lines.Now those missile are partly controlled by Pakistani army. There is understanding betwwen Islamabad and washington at Higest level. Sure very few people are privy to this info. It is like courtship going on like lion couple. There is lots of noise and mock attack etc but they are in love , just like your moron hindi culturalpathos movies. Like clinton No ask no say policy for this attacks. I thought you can imagine what is going on. Kayani went to american general on Aircraft carrier, it is not just for show. Any way You will never understand the covert operations. In that no means yes and yes means no. You are loosing mind sir, sure you are not from IIT college.
Good day

Re: # 31 NKG ... You indians need to repect what people say even though may be critical.That is reason India is not advancing. One Arab intelluctual and thinker professor said ( He had huge librabary at home and even bigger in his office and he some times is interviewed by BBC type people real educated people. He said Indians are blocked headed people and they have mental paralysis compared to Pakistanis. He predicted after some time Pakistan will be advanced nation as they are hard working honest people and do not waste time in analysis ( it is bengali political disease) while India will be always haveing poterntial to be aadvanced but it will be always developing as with tiome no arab is going to sell any oil for india as you defame them all time. bye

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Re: # 25
"Your article would be more correct if the word Kashmiri everywhere was replaced by "Muslim Kashmiris". "

I agree.

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Re: # 28

Ahmedmadani sahib, Arjun has a point. The only supporters of the Kashmiri agitation in India outside Kashmir are likely to be the arm-chair-sprawling, mouth-running, no-good-at-anything-otherwise "intellectuals" like Arundhati Roy and her kunba of followers -- which represents no more than a miniscule. I do not put too much trust either in the judgement, maturity, impartiality nor the pretensions of selflessness of such individuals! They likely do it more for the tamasha effect and to earn some limelight for themselves rather than from any genuine or real convictions.

Re: # 26 People who count and who are thinkers and intelluctuals not just educated code coolies or no nothing nobodies.
Good day.

#24 Posted by hamidm2 on November 19, 2008 6:04:36 am

if wishes were horses, pakis would be jockeys...

#25 Posted by dost_mittar on November 19, 2008 6:42:58 am


it is getting some support even inside India.


why don't you go out on a limb and tell us what percentage of indian people you're talking about here...

the way I see it, nobody other than the kuldip nayyar types and the JNU types support any change in status quo for indian kashmir...

Nadeem:

You are right that the Muslim Kashmiri separatist movement seems to have entered a new phase and it is getting some support even inside India.

"Surely I've always held a keen academic interest in it, but the way it evolved in the 1990s when the militant side of the struggle rudely overshadowed the doings of the more moderate All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) and
the Jamuha Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), I was convinced the movement was doomed."

JKLF was itself a militant organization and quite communal in its character. It lost its secular credentials as soon as it attacked Hindu Kashmiris and pushed them outside the valley.

"Islamists do not shun western science and philosophy like the fundamentalists do. Instead, Islamists have been known to advocate the thorough study of western intellectual, political and cultural trends in an attempt to challenge them through their understanding and interpretation of Islam. This has made the writings of Islamists rather fascinating. However, the discourse between Islam and Western secularism that they present eventually mutates from being an absorbing intellectual event into a somewhat frail ostentation when the Islamists turn the discourse into a suggestive political program."

You could call Jinnah the most successful political islamist of the last century and the above statement would equally apply to this creation, Pakistan.

Your article would be more correct if the word Kashmiri everywhere was replaced by "Muslim Kashmiris".

... i think the isi should focus on diverting the taliban from bajaur and waziristan to kashmir - that way we can kill two birds with one stone ....... somehow we have to convince the wild-eyed jihadis that the americans, who are 'people of the book', are not as bad as the infidel idol worshiping hindoos ........ for god's sake, it can't be that hard !

Nadeem:

I suggest India give away State of Kashmir to Muslim Pakistan. Then everybody will be happy. Pakistanis would have nothing to complain about this, " unfinished business of Partition". There will be peace between Pakistan and India. Kasmiris' destiny will be determined by fellow Muslims. This will lead to reduction of defence expenditure of Pakistan and that can be used to create a stronger, peaceful and democratic Pakistan.

There will be no more 'eyeball to eyeball confrontation between Hindustan and Pakistan. Roti, Makan and Kapada will replace guns. Anyone disagrees with me?

Kamath

Re: # 13

"Organized Islam (fundamental or political) in any way shape of form is a danger to the civilized world, and must be dealt with"

Very much true, looking at its (Islam and muslims) contribution in past, present and what it aims in future for itself as well as others.

Beej bhayya,

Re: 19

For once, I agree with everything your write. Word for word!!!

Regards

BJ2...
contd...
9) Kashmiri moslas should be honest while preaching that Kashmir is separate from India; means Kasmiri moslems should not try to acquire jobs outside Kashmir, try to establish business outside Kashmir. But that is not there. They get paid by GoI and use that money to destroy indian civilian infrastructure.

It should not be like Jinnah; father of Pakiland. He kept his property and relatives in Mumbai- in case Pakiland fails to function as country, he should have the option to migrate to India....

Nadeem dear, let me give you my own feedback on this – which will likely jibe with that of most average Indians in the street.

(1) The “original� Kashmiri agitation was never non-violent. In fact, it was the killing of the Indian diplomat (I think that of Mr. Mhatre, in the late 1980’s) which hardened the position of the government of India.

(2) The “original� Kashmiri agitation was never secular – it was driven (like the original movement for Pakistan) by the desire to create an Islamic state. Kashmiris have always had the right to choose their own political leaders – so political freedom is not an issue.

(3) True, the Kashmiri agitation was taken over by the (Pakistani ISI-backed) Jihadis without any consent of the Kashmiris (surprise, surprise! As if the Pakistani ISI really cares for the aspirations of those people!) However, in return, one never saw the Kashmiris agitating against the ISI-funded Jihadis. The reason was simple – Kashmiri “liberal� population was not averse to the goal of an Islamic state, so they did not really mind it if the Jihadis could help them get there.

(4) The ISI-funded militants have lost. The Indian forces have whipped their butts (whether or not anybody in Pakistan admits it). The reason the Jihadi movement in Kashmir is no more reviving is because the ISI has realized that their game is up and because the Pakistanis are too broke to keep pouring more money down the same bottomless drain.

(5) Nobody believes that the Kashmiris have become Gandhiwadis at heart! The current “peaceful�agitation is merely a change in tactic because (a) the violent agitation has been butt-whipped and the “secular� leaders do care very much when their own butts are involved and (b) there is nothing else left to be tried.

(6) No matter how much the Kashmiris sympathize with themselves, nobody in India sympathizes with them any more. Put simply, they are seen as a bunch of whining trouble-makers who are communal bigots at heart! The rest of the world (including the Pakistanis) can give them all the lip service it wants. It won’t make an iota of difference.

(7) The Kashmiris will continue to get their elections once every five years, like the rest of India. If they choose to live peacefully during those five years, they will continue to run their own day-to-day affairs. If they misbehave, there is always the option of Presidents’s Rule for the rest of each term.

(8) The Pakistani ISI has not had a change of heart. It is only biding for time – until that country recovers economically and until the Western pressure recedes. Then it will be another khaki regime in place and it will be back to the square one of that same old game. Why?! Because that is the only game Pakistanis know.

Paracha,

A nice article. There seems to be a definite shift in the form and content of the movement in Kashmir. If this shift is real, then it is indeed a positive shift. I agree that the recent protests have been more potent than the "terrorist" phase. However, it is not enough. In the present context, more thought has to be given to: (i) what would "freedom" mean once this "freedom" is attained; (ii) how inclusive is this "freedom", given that a bulk of the population is non-Muslim; (iii) how "feasible" is this freedom (still characterized along communal lines), when a bulk of the Indian population comprises of Muslims.

I am not saying that the movement is not genuine. It is. A dominant section (may not be a majority) genuinely want to separate from India largely driven by communal consideration and by the coercive poilicies of the Indian state. It is their right and duty to demand and seek separation. But it is precisely this motivation for independence that should drive the Indian state to decisively (and even ruthlessly) crush the movement. For otherwise, India as a country would sink into chaos. An entity entrusted with the protection of the Indian constitution cannot let that happen.

Nadeem...
Please look at the proposal and use your good office to Ummah and its beacon of light, Pakistan....Getting land now-a-days is not very easy (not even in scaresly populated Russia), specialy in India (people are kicking out Industrialists like Tatas)....
I think, you are now sure, India will not give up Kashmir just by negotiation etc....after fighting for more than 6 decades and wasting money....

Kaal...
You know, the biggest problem of Kashmir from Indian point of view is something very different...
Congress-wallas will say without a moslem majority state indian secularism will be incomplete....
RSS-wallas will say, Kashmir is atoot Anga of Bharat....
Pakis will say- We are ready to loose FATA,NWFP to Talibs and BD to Bangla moslas but not Kashmir to Hindu India. It will be defeat of Islam/Ummah to cede space for Kafirs....
We ordinary Indians, have no association with Kashmir and hardly any affinity for Kashmir apart from tourism...
Everybody is fed-up with it. I realy think, it is time for India to sell Kashmir with some USD$200bn or so to Pakistan and gift 10mn so moslems to Pakistan....
Indian security experts will say, China will create a base there and then it will be easier for China to create trouble in India....

One matter is pretty clear, once Kashmir is transferred to Pakistan, it will be another FATA and hub of jihadi terrorism and Farukh ABdullahs etc.. will try to root in India...
Still there are family members of Jinnah living in India...
That much confidence he had on the promished land for moslems of India!!!!!

Kaal...
You know, the biggest problem of Kashmir from Indian point of view is something very different...
Congress-wallas will say without a moslem majority state indian secularism will be incomplete....
RSS-wallas will say, Kashmir is atoot Anga of Bharat....
Pakis will say- We are ready to loose FATA,NWFP to Talibs and BD to Bangla moslas but not Kashmir to Hindu India. It will be defeat of Islam/Ummah to cede space for Kafirs....
We ordinary Indians, have no association with Kashmir and hardly any affinity for Kashmir apart from tourism...
Everybody is fed-up with it. I realy think, it is time for India to sell Kashmir with some USD$200bn or so to Pakistan and gift 10mn so moslems to Pakistan....
Indian security experts will say, China will create a base there and then it will be easier for China to create trouble in India....

One matter is pretty clear, once Kashmir is transferred to Pakistan, it will be another FATA and hub of jihadi terrorism and Farukh ABdullahs etc.. will try to root in India...
Still there are family members of Jinnah living in India...
That much confidence he had on the promished land for moslems of India!!!!!

an interesting idea. could have been developed better.

This essay is like a Biryani that’s missing rice in it. Paracha starts off with an oxymoronic statement of not being an “enthusiast� but also having a “keen� interest about Kashmir and then goes completely off tangent with a half baked lecture on Islamic Fundamentalism vs Political Islam.

For peripheral observers, there’s hardly a distinction. Organized Islam (fundamental or political) in any way shape of form is a danger to the civilized world, and must be dealt with. If you want to shove Islam in society’s face, be prepared to have something shoved back in yours in return.

Nadeem, you are going to get slammed by Indians on this one. :)

Nadeem...
"Modern Political Islam is closely associated with three central figures: Pakistan's Abul Ala Madudi, Egypt's Syed Qutb and Iran's Ayatullah Khomenini..."
What about the prophet of Pakiland (Pakinadu to Tamils), MAJ?

"Political Islam had devolved into what we now call "Islamic fundamentalism," that is, Political Islam stripped clean off its intellectual moorings and reduced to being an ideology of pure terror and having a myopic and narrow understanding of Islam and of the West."

Political Islam was ALWAYS Islamic fundamentalism - myopic, stereotypical, haughty, fascistic, theocratic, vicious, abusive and violent.

The so called "intellectual moorings" was just a sugar coating that was used to hide the mafiaso cult working in the background.

Nadeem,

I did not know that you can be so gullible!!

It sounds strange , but you seem to be falling into the Islamic traps as you grow older.

"Islamists do not shun western science and philosophy like the fundamentalists do. Instead, Islamists have been known to advocate the thorough study of western intellectual, political and cultural trends in an attempt to challenge them through their understanding and interpretation of Islam. This has made the writings of Islamists rather fascinating."

Nadeem,

This is completely FALSE. Islamists DO NOT profess using hypothetico-deductive scientific method to corroborate human imaginary theories. Instead, they aim at pushing and creating fantastic discourses (like Masadi's Islamic-GUTS theory) in order to spread propaganda about the GIVENS of Quran and Islam.

Islamists have no use for science. Islamists do not consider "revealed" as hypothesis , but as givens that must be saved at all costs- even to the extent of spreading lies about other non-muslim faiths.

Re: # 1
Cobra....
"Haha, the problem is India is not going to budge neither by their violence nor new found love for Ahimsa. "

Hey there no love for Ahimsa...they used violence to see that Pundits leave Kashmir enmass to make it pure semi-beduin zone...then tried to fight with Indian armed forces, with help of Paki army, both sides lost enough people. Now Paki army is sold to USA/NATO and they are not able to help jihadis....So jihadis are now reluctantly using this unislamic method of demonstration etc...

for better information read G Parthasarathy.....

Nadeem....
With the current financial situation, it would be better for Pakiland to acquire Kashmir for around 200/300bn US$ and get 20mn moslems from India for free. That way Islam will be more dense in Pakiland and India will also benefit...somehow, we need to convince this to our politicians....and Saudi and Dubai Govt. should sponsor this...
Our madrasi (P Chidambaram) FW will definitely agree. I am not sure about the rest of the people...

Nadeem ji,

the so called non-violent uprising and agitation is just an accessory and a support to help the terrorists being pushed from the borders by the Pakistani Awaam.

The real terrorists are the PAkistani Awaam who breed , nurture and support these Jehadis .

If you look at the events and tie them together then it becomes clear. The terrorists sneak from the border and the "moderate" leaders take the lumpens to the streets in the valley.

This is in NO way "a bold act of stamping a seal of disapproval against the tactics of the armed groups" -rathar it is just another way to supplement the terror and Jehad by the kashmiri momeens and Pakistanis.

Like the three Palestinian Intifada movements, the recent Kashmiri uprising too has nothing to do with bombs, kidnappings, beheadings and assorted terrorist tactics.


pali intifada has nothing to do with bombs?

WTF are you smoking besides cigarettes?

Nadeem would it be right to say Pakistani nationalism can be defined by the Kashmir issue?
Now that Pakistan backed militancy has done wonders for Pakistan and has been defeated by India this article is about Pakistanis trying to take solace in something.
The fact of the matter is Kashmir in the long term is better off with India. Whenever you doubt that you can take a look at the two Pure Islamic states that separated from India.

Regards,

Faruk

"And, barring Pakistan, this condemnation did not only come from countries that are expected to play a more sympathetic role towards the Kashmiris' legitimate demands of self-determination"

Haha, the problem is India is not going to budge neither by their violence nor new found love for Ahimsa.

You think it's legal, they think it's legal but we don't think it's legal. And at the end of the day, what we think is what matters. So legal or not Kashmir will remain our "female of canine variety" until India wants it to be so.