An Indian Muslim

Shoaib, indian muslims are the life and blood of India. I hope that as the indian electorate matures, genuinely right winged parties ala GOP of USA will emerge which will have none of the hindutva stuff as their ideology.

I also believe that if there s place where islam will undergo renaissance like the european one , it will be India. Why? India is the only country where over a big muslim population lives under an astonishingly liberal sanvidhaan.In turkey, they are secular but their secularism is fanatical.In iran, they are religious but their piety is fanatical and distorted.


PS: i have not met many middle class muslims and always feel delighted on knowing about indian-muslim success stories like urs....May god bless you

n one thing more pa je, your artical is a part of HUMOUR section. Humour kithy way??????

n one thing more pa je, your artical is a part of HUMOUR section. Humour kithy way??????

n one thing more pa je, your artical is a part of HUMOUR section. Humour kithy way??????

Pa je your article cm letter was good but i didnt get one thing,you are addressing 'the brainwashed', 'spineless' people,is it of any good? i dont know much about terrorists, but one thing is for sure, if they do not believe in peace, they automaticaly step out of the relms of islam.Islam means peace.if someone is able to prove his identity, being related to Pakistan(GOD FORBID)then....... woh kia kaHA HY PERVEEN SHAKIR NY ,
BAAT TU SUCH HY, MGR BAAT HY RUSVIE KE.

Re: # 262
Mr. beduin follower, can you please enlighten, what is the Institutionalised Injustise moslems are facing in India?

Is it the Huzz Subsidy?
Is it the separate personal law?
Is it Govt. sponsoring islamic institutions (Madressahs), which works against the concept of India?
Is it special recruitment quota in AP and Tamilnadu for moslems?
Is it that inclusion of moslems in OBC list?

And what is this custom in Kolkata to Get soil from BROTHEL begore installing DURAG MAI for DURGA PUJA

159
260
261

NKG pora Pocha Nogra
NKG the nogra pocha

The Bengalis are the hunger striken filthy skinny pthysic chested useless penpushing bank employees clerks .Where they cant work they start union supposedly controlling labou instead of Producing or able to work with static activity and muscle .name on bangali regiment and defender of borders .

VivekaNanda Gay Partener was Ram Krishna ,Bengalis are abnormal that they dont marry very common among them m Bidhan Rioy ,Ajoy Mukherjee .And many Bangali think its the way o0f life It Is if you are Gay Not that there is any thing wrong withit .

Out billion the largest numder of MARGINISLED peope living in Dhravi Lke Conditionar hindu majority .There are 990 milions hindu indian poorer than Sikhs Christian AND MUSLIMS .


For there numbers there more muslims I.A.S IFS I.P.S competed candidated


hindus majority good for is wallas ...Business cloth ganji Dhoti selling wallas ...not as many intellectual consistent of ther HUGE number !

Re: # 257

'Blacks in the US have fought their way against institutionalized injustices'

You must be totally insane deluded to compare youself ..hindian to( white ' not color but race Anglo Saxon .



http://view.break.com/578969 - Watch more free videos

Re: # 258
Pew...

Shankar must have been ditched by concept of Islamic BrotherHood...

Shankar, it is applied for sisters of mosla brothers ... QoRun permits having s** with sister...that way BortherHood....

Regarding non islamic interpretation of brotherhood, every year people die in Karachi in street fighting between UP/Bihari migrants and rest of the people...I have not aware of such problem in Gujrat or Mumbai related to Sindhis....

Re: # 257
dev...
"Cause and effect can be debated, but once you tell your boss that you want quit you can't complain that you didn't get a raise...."

All these apply to human society...not on moslems....the thumb rule is it, the beduin followers have to get all the resources,services..., wherever they live. Whether it is Pakiland or India or Thailand.....every body have to adjust with 7th century arabic way of life, wherever you stay (London, Mumbai, Bankok, New York, or Islam-a-Bad...)....you should not ask why? as this is what the arabic moon god revealed to his preferred beduin and everybody has to follow it....wherever the beduin followers are majority create nuicense to others and turn civilized population into extinctinction ( Iran, Pakistan, Egypt...)...wherever beduin followers are minority create problem to majority people ( India, Philipines, Thailand, Mynmar, UK, France...) and ask for everything separate....

It is not india's problem alone...it is universal problem...
Don't treat Paki allegation against India seriously.....

Re: # 255
dawa-deal-.....
...agreed. Pakistan is very advanced country in terms of technology etc...but then, why don't you use that for conventional war? why you have to resort to islamic war (using arms hiding behind civilians or killing un-armed civilians)?

Re: # 117 Shankar

"Out of curiosity, is an Indian muslim able to migrate to Pakistan today, if he/she wants to?"

Negative. Can't anymore. That right to migrate based upon religion went away more than 50 years ago. Since your question specifically asked regarding 'Indian Muslim' (as opposed to 'Indian', I assume that you are referring to right to migrate post- Partition. The irony is that even Bihari Muslims who went to East Pakistan in '47 and wanted to migrate to (West) Pakistan in '71 are denied entry. Just do a Google search on 'Bihari Muslim Bangladesh'

The rosy picture that Romair painted for you was misleading because he never touched the crux of your question.
Ciao

Re: # 28

Many of your posts cite Gujarat riots and the injustices done to Muslims as if that is the norm, some kind of a daily routine in the life of Indian muslims.. that 7 year old girls basically wake up to molested by evil policemen. It is as ridiculous a portrayal as saying that every Indian muslim starts his day thinking which train can he burn down/bomb or for which ISI trained terrorist he can buy SIM cards.

I've never been to Pakistan so my only knowledge of how good it is to its citizens is based on various UN reports on things like human development, female literacy, religious freedom etc. And I don't think it is in the top third in the world in any index of consequence (much like India), so utopia for anybody, it is not.

India is a over populated country with limited resources with massive institutional problems that lead to many groups being marginalized and downtrodden. There are vast many groups that have never even come into any position of influence (let alone ruling vast parts of country for a couple of centuries). Muslims are among these marginalized sections of the society in many places, but they are not alone. Most of these downtrodden groups fight everyday to overcome these injustices, but with muslims the problem gets magnified because of external influences and the presence of powerful entities all around telling them that they alone are being mistreated and an utopia can be there if they are ruled by fellow Muslims (yeah.. right.. look at at Saudi or Iran and the life of a common muslim there.. All you are free to do is pray, I guess. If you're a girl who wants to wear jeans, then? You don't deserve to be free??) 56 freedom movements by Muslims in India is not just a reflection of Hindu 'atrocities', but also of the mentality of the people in those movements who cannot work within the concept of India. If India struggles to help people even those who try to work within its framework, imagine what happens to people who want to secede. Cause and effect can be debated, but once you tell your boss that you want quit you can't complain that you didn't get a raise.

Btw, people who feel so much for the plight of Indian muslims should probably walk the talk and fund schools that provide regular scientific education to the oppressed masses as opposed to institutions that focus on byhearting a 1300 year old scripture.

Finally, there is something different about being a minority in any country. If you've enjoyed being in the majority all you life, you probably cannot relate to this. As a minority you have to continue to fight for your opportunities and chip away at the status quo, but it is infinitely silly to fight for secession. The very demand for secession antagonizes even moderates among the majority and accords a strong 'outsider' status to the minority. Once this feeling sets in the chances of equal opportunity for the minority are as bleak as the prospects of having a Hindu prime minister in Pakistan :-) We can't expect one section of the population to be magnanimous while we ourselves act in such narrow-minded way.

Blacks in the US have fought their way against institutionalized injustices because they realized the value of education and because they had a few very smart leaders (MLK Jr etc.) who saw that the best way is to integrate with the rest, involve the moderates on the other side and vigorously claim their rights within the framework of the constitution. Some of their ideas can be adapted to Indian conditions for Indian Muslims to demand and achieve more resources for themselves. If Muslim leaders realize the opportunity and demand better education and job opportunities for their own ('Drop our Haj subsidy and use that money build 10 schools in our neighborhoods' or some such thing) as opposed to going around warning people that they'll get blown up if Babri masjid is not rebuilt or if some part of the country is not allowed to secede, then the next 10-20 years for Indian Muslims will be better than the last 10-20.

But I don't think that the community has the kind of leaders who inspire them to look ahead and work constructively for their own good.

Re: # 253
Cool Guy

mr,Akbar is good writer being editor of major news paper telegraph India,He is life long Cngressite during Rajiv Gandhi he reached highest importence.

Just b/c he is Muslim and good with words his word is not talisman for many .Talking of opinion some have there own opinion



you can add this to your thinking loud in idle time .For the dead and families its meaningless who did it how & why

Hindu Zionists behind Mumbai Attacks - Zaid Hamid


Written by Inam Abidi Amrohvi · December 03, 2008 · 798




I felt that a section of the Indian media acted a little immature by linking the terrorists to Pakistan even before the official word. Playing to the gallery gets you TRPs but doesn’t help the greater cause. Agreed the men came from Pakistan (as shared by the government later) but the country is itself fighting the same monster. It’s high time that we work together on countering this threat together rather than play the age old blame game. If Pakistan is serious we will get closer to the people who masterminded the Mumbai carnage. And for that it needs to do more than just mere assurances.

Replying to the Indian claims of the terrorists coming from Pakistan, a TV channel (News One) there has come up with its own weird conspiracy theory. I couldn’t watch the entire programme as it was too far fetched to digest and in a way mocked the sacrifices of some very brave men.

The video features Zaid Hamid. Hamid is an idependent Pakistani security expert and also the founder of BrassTacks - a Pakistani Think Tank devoted to the study of regional and global political events and their influence on Pakistan. He comes from a military background having signed up as a volunteer in the Afghan war. His jihadi roots speaks for his biased opinions and weird logic. On a lighter note he is a good entertainer with his kind of imagination.

Have a look-

http://www.brasstacks.pk/brasstacks/Default.aspx?TabId=159

What can I say other than we have to shed aside our differences if we are to fight a common enemy. The electronic media needs to be more restrained in their approach. Such telecasts only fuel the fire.

It saddens me to see India’s name amongst the 20 most dangerous places to visit by the UK’s Telegraph. Needless to mention the millions we will lose because of tourists shying away. And we share space with Pakistan on that list. I’m sure the Pakistanis too feel the same!

Let’s find solutions rather than faults!

Pakistan Nuclear Scientist on India

With growing tensions between India and Pakistan , streets of Mumbai are lashing with angry voices of 'Revenge'. Media and people living in india are building up pressure on the politicians to take some action. Certainly the full fledge war cannot be an option for both nuclear armed forces of india and pakistan but limited 'hot pursuit' is the talk of the town these days. If suppose Pakistan specially Muridke near Lahore get some aerial attack on Lashkara-i-Tayyaba HQ , what will be Pakistan response. What PAF and Strategic Planning Division will do. Can we able to shot down thier planes. Pakistan top nuclear/missile scientist says that we can even shot drones of US but its upon Government when it will order. I dont know why awaz tv not uploaded this wonderful video so with thanks i am taking it from NaMaan video section as its discuss some 'inner secret' details of Pakistan Nuclear and Missile Programs


Dr. Samar Mubarakmand (born September 17, 1942) is Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, and the Ex Chairman of Pakistan's National Engineering and Scientific Commission(NESCOM), an organization regarded as the country's premier center of scientific research.


He has been awarded Pakistan's three highest civil awards, the Nishan-e-Imtiaz, the Hilal-e-Imtiaz and the Sitara-e-Imtiaz. He rose to national fame in May 1998 when he headed the team of Pakistani scientists which conducted the country's successful nuclear tests in Balochistan.



Dr. Mubarakmand received the M.S. degree in Physics from Government College , Lahore, in 1962, and the Ph.D. in Experimental Nuclear Physics from the University of Oxford, England, in 1966 where he was part of the team which commissioned a 22 million volt atomic accelerator. He has expertise in nuclear instrumentation, nuclear diagnostics, application of lasers, and fibre optics technology.



Dr. Samar Mubarakmand has been associated with a variety of classified scientific programmes in Pakistan. He joined the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) in 1962, where he was in charge of the Directorate of Technical Development, one of the most secretive institutes within Pakistan and completely unknown to the outside world. He reportedly supervised several cold tests in 1983, and also developed a neutron facility for acceleration of explosion process in a nuclear device. In 1990s, he served as the Director General of National Defence Complex, another Pakistani organization shrouded in secrecy. He was appointed as the first Chairman of Pakistan's National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) in 2001. He is now considered the main architect of Pakistan's missile program, which includes systems such as the Babur missile, Shaheen missile series, and the Ghaznavi missile system.



One of his recent landmark achievements is the establishment of Centers of Excellence (COEs) in the fields of Computational Science and Medicine, Control & Instrumentation, Fluid Dynamics & Engineering Design, Hydro Technologies, Wireless Communication, and Electronics and Composite Materials. These COEs are fast becoming the hub of advance scientific and medical activity in Pakistan, conducting research in areas such as stem cells, tissue culture technology, and production of cardiac stents.



Dr. Samar Mubarakmand is widely credited with bringing modernization in the design and development of many components and instruments, which are considered the backbone of Pakistan's nuclear and missile technology.



FORTUNATELY THIS PERSON DID NOT LEAVE PAKISTAN AND REMAINED FAITHFUL TO THE COUNTRY. HE HAS PASSED HIS LIFE IN STRENGTHENING OF PAKISTAN. NATION IS PROUD OF HIM. IN 2003 HE WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN PAKISTAN WHO WAS AWARDED WITH PAKISTAN'S 3 HIGHEST CIVIL AWARD.






Check his interview with Javed Chaudry on December 3, 2008


http://www.zshare.net/video/522145972cb789fb





Dr. Samar Mubarak discusiing Pakistan first Cruise Missile Babur, being the 3rd country of the world having this technology, check this YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8OnJLoRhmo

Pakistan Nuclear Scientist on India

With growing tensions between India and Pakistan , streets of Mumbai are lashing with angry voices of 'Revenge'. Media and people living in india are building up pressure on the politicians to take some action. Certainly the full fledge war cannot be an option for both nuclear armed forces of india and pakistan but limited 'hot pursuit' is the talk of the town these days. If suppose Pakistan specially Muridke near Lahore get some aerial attack on Lashkara-i-Tayyaba HQ , what will be Pakistan response. What PAF and Strategic Planning Division will do. Can we able to shot down thier planes. Pakistan top nuclear/missile scientist says that we can even shot drones of US but its upon Government when it will order. I dont know why awaz tv not uploaded this wonderful video so with thanks i am taking it from NaMaan video section as its discuss some 'inner secret' details of Pakistan Nuclear and Missile Programs


Dr. Samar Mubarakmand (born September 17, 1942) is Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, and the Ex Chairman of Pakistan's National Engineering and Scientific Commission(NESCOM), an organization regarded as the country's premier center of scientific research.


He has been awarded Pakistan's three highest civil awards, the Nishan-e-Imtiaz, the Hilal-e-Imtiaz and the Sitara-e-Imtiaz. He rose to national fame in May 1998 when he headed the team of Pakistani scientists which conducted the country's successful nuclear tests in Balochistan.



Dr. Mubarakmand received the M.S. degree in Physics from Government College , Lahore, in 1962, and the Ph.D. in Experimental Nuclear Physics from the University of Oxford, England, in 1966 where he was part of the team which commissioned a 22 million volt atomic accelerator. He has expertise in nuclear instrumentation, nuclear diagnostics, application of lasers, and fibre optics technology.



Dr. Samar Mubarakmand has been associated with a variety of classified scientific programmes in Pakistan. He joined the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) in 1962, where he was in charge of the Directorate of Technical Development, one of the most secretive institutes within Pakistan and completely unknown to the outside world. He reportedly supervised several cold tests in 1983, and also developed a neutron facility for acceleration of explosion process in a nuclear device. In 1990s, he served as the Director General of National Defence Complex, another Pakistani organization shrouded in secrecy. He was appointed as the first Chairman of Pakistan's National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) in 2001. He is now considered the main architect of Pakistan's missile program, which includes systems such as the Babur missile, Shaheen missile series, and the Ghaznavi missile system.



One of his recent landmark achievements is the establishment of Centers of Excellence (COEs) in the fields of Computational Science and Medicine, Control & Instrumentation, Fluid Dynamics & Engineering Design, Hydro Technologies, Wireless Communication, and Electronics and Composite Materials. These COEs are fast becoming the hub of advance scientific and medical activity in Pakistan, conducting research in areas such as stem cells, tissue culture technology, and production of cardiac stents.



Dr. Samar Mubarakmand is widely credited with bringing modernization in the design and development of many components and instruments, which are considered the backbone of Pakistan's nuclear and missile technology.



FORTUNATELY THIS PERSON DID NOT LEAVE PAKISTAN AND REMAINED FAITHFUL TO THE COUNTRY. HE HAS PASSED HIS LIFE IN STRENGTHENING OF PAKISTAN. NATION IS PROUD OF HIM. IN 2003 HE WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN PAKISTAN WHO WAS AWARDED WITH PAKISTAN'S 3 HIGHEST CIVIL AWARD.






Check his interview with Javed Chaudry on December 3, 2008


http://www.zshare.net/video/522145972cb789fb





Dr. Samar Mubarak discusiing Pakistan first Cruise Missile Babur, being the 3rd country of the world having this technology, check this YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8OnJLoRhmo

Ok, so jews have an axe to grind you say.. talk is cheap

Here is MJ Akbar....tap dance your way out of this one...


'Pakistan will have to pay a heavy price'

M J Akbar | December 02, 2008 | 16:13 IST

M J Akbar is one of India's best-known journalists and commentators, someone with a deep insight into the Indian people and their mindset. In this first-person, as-told-to piece, Akbar discusses the Mumbai attacks and their relevance for India.

Many people forget that India is a tough nation. Toothless leaders have turned India into a soft nation. People forget that India has fought back Muslim terrorism in Kashmir; Sikh terrorism in Punjab, Christian terrorism in Nagaland and Hindu terrorism in Assam, and amongst the Naxalites.

We have had everything thrown at the Indian nation State. Still, we have stood up. The people of India have shown the courage and ability to believe in their nation and to fight back. But the completely impotent leadership of five years have turned a tough country into a soft State.

I am very sad. I keep feeling that if they protect India as they protect their leaders -- whether it is Prime Minister Manmohan Singh or Congress President Sonia Gandhi -- I think I would be safe. Today, India's leaders are safe and India is in panic.

On what India's response should be:

India's proper reaction would be possible if we understand the extent of the disease.

If the disease is cancer, you can't apply band aid. After making a complete mess of security issues for five years by asking Shivraj Patil to go finally we may have a home minister who doesn't comb his hair and change his clothes. But we want something more than that. If it is cancer, we need chemotherapy, a much more serious exercise. It needs a legislative and executive framework. It needs political mobilisation. People are numbed.

The Indian people have no leadership. You have a prime minister. Did you see him when he addressed the nation? Nobody knew if he was addressing the nation or having a cup of tea?

He looked serious, but he didn't talk to us about our anger and about our anguish. I think this administration is tone deaf to the anguish of the people. They just cannot understand what the people are going through. They just don't understand our pain or our anger. The most important thing is that, perhaps, we have politicised not only the instruments of the State like the police but we have also politicised the understanding of the nature of the problem.

I think the very first thing to do is to ensure security so that it prevents the next attack. If any attack takes place under someones job should go. Don't come to me with alibis.

On the terrorists getting local support:

I am an Indian Muslim and I am very proud of both, being an Indian and a Muslim. I do not see any contradictions. This is my land and I have nowhere else to go.

But can I say because I am an Indian Muslim that no Indian Muslim is involved? Can you, because you are a Hindu, say that no Hindu is involved? We have to behave like Indians first. Not as a Muslim or as a Hindu first. Because we need Hindu votes and Muslim votes and because this government thinks that it needs Muslim votes so it has been in complete denial.

Do you think that these people came across from Pakistan and had no support in Mumbai?

It is not possible. It was a huge operation. Ten people hit nine places and you killed nine of them. You want to say that they went from place to place? Who knows some of them must have slipped away to create new sleeper cells to hit us six months later.

They are hiding things. I would like to believe that there was an underworld connection. Because, Karachi and Mumbai are also linked by drug smuggling. The culture of criminals is aggression. It comes naturally to them. It is not easy for you and I to become aggressive, however angry we are. It does not come naturally to us. These are people who are trained psychologically in aggression. They have no respect for the State. They have no love for the country. And they have no respect for authority.

Why? Because the only face of authority is the corrupt policeman. The criminal gives money in the morning and money in the evening. Why should he have respect for somebody he gives bribes to? For the guy from the underworld his understanding of the Indian State and authority is corruption. He has no patriotism to stop him. Why would he not join hands with the terrorists? In any case, he belongs to another world. We have not even begun to address and discuss this.

On the Pakistan factor

I am tired of giving Pakistan a long rope on some excuse or the other. Everybody is saying this will happen if we do this, that will happen if we do this. Our relations with Pakistan will go, then, let them go. What has our relations with Pakistan brought us except violence and terror? Why should we be in charge of saving Pakistan? For what? Every time they turn around and they say they want evidence. Now, finally we have evidence.

I have been an editor for 35 years from the age of 23. From that time on, since the days of General Zia-ul Haq, I have been hearing 'Pakistan is asking for evidence'. We asked for withdrawal of their support to the movement for Khalistan, they said, 'Oh, we don't know anything about it.' On Kashmir, they kept repeating where is the evidence. Benazir Bhutto came, she asked for evidence. Nawaz Sharif came, he asked for evidence. I think Pervez Musharraf asked for less evidence. Now again, they are asking for evidence.

There is a terrorist in Mumbai, captured and arrested. How much more evidence do you want? If what he is saying is not evidence, then how can you get more evidence?

This government is in its 11th hour. Now they will bluff the people to protect their votes. There is no time left for them. The agony of departure will be hard from this government.

On the reaction in the West

The US and Britain have a vested interest in telling India to look within. Why? When Americans die then they can send their air force 7,000 miles and bomb every country to smithereens. But when Indians die, they tell us no, no, you must be patient. You must act like a swami and a yogi. Why? Is an American life more precious than an Indian life? Why should we keep listening to them? But we have a government that keeps listening to them all the time. We don't get tough.

The last time we got tough was after the attack on Parliament. We took some tough actions under Operation Parakram and then there was a certain lull. Three years ago, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was able to tell President George W Bush that there are no terrorists amongst Indian Muslims. That means that lull continued.

Pakistan must be made to realise that it will have to pay a heavy price. Not necessarily through war, but a heavy price will have to be paid in loss in trade, in cancellation of orders and other engagements. They should pay a heavy price in terms of people to people relations. I am not saying you can freeze a relationship to death, but the message must go out that if there is a crime there will be a penalty. You just can't get away with it.

Let the Pakistan government cooperate with us. But look at how the Pakistan government has buckled down and we are sitting here whimpering.

They want to send some lowly officers to India. For what? Even Pakistan is treating the Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi government with total contempt. They know how weak it is.

Delink Hindu-Muslim relations and Pakistan

Look, you must not confuse the Pakistan issue with the Indian Muslims issue. Their so-called alienation or their economic deprivation is not linked to the issue of Pakistan.

Indian Muslims have nothing to do with Pakistan. They have absolutely no sympathy for Pakistan. They know that Pakistan was the biggest mistake committed in the history of Indian Muslims. They know it. You can ask anyone in Baroda, Bihar or Mumbai. They know how they are suffering the backlash of all the consequences of cross-border terrorism.

Today, they fear retribution from the government, they fear retribution from popular disenchantment and anger. They feel helpless. They feel afraid.

We must understand finally that it is not so much the 'local people', it is the local underworld that is involved in anti-India activities. In 1993, who were involved in terrorism? The underworld. Why have you not done anything about it? The State turns a blind eye to the police and corruption. I don't know how many readers smoke hashish and other stuff, but I am accusing them of cross-border terrorism. Drugs come to India from Afghanistan via Karachi.

What we can do as individuals

If whoever is responsible for protecting the nation fails, then he or she should not be allowed to continue in power. That is the toughest and sharpest message we can give. You can tell that you may be a soft State, but we are a hard people and we are hard voters.

We are not going to forgive you for your lies and deception and for your waffling. How many blasts do we need to understand that? When Jaipur, Ahmedabad, Mumbai and Delhi happened no one who was genuinely guilty was caught.

We have to understand now that corruption has eaten away vitals of this nation. It is the biggest danger to the security of India. It is not just the case of some spectrum being sold to someone by some minister in. Everyone who is corrupt get out!

It Is a failure all around. We have to be extremely practical and pragmatic. There is great deal to be depressed about as an Indian. Frankly speaking, I feel very angry and upset. I am never upset by the behaviour of our enemies. I am only upset by the betrayal of those I trust.

M J Akbar, editor-in-chief, Covert magazine, spoke to Sheela Bhatt

nkg 243, 244
NKG,
Yaar, itna ghussa na kar. Speaking of Maharaja Hari Singh, you know what happened to Harry. Woh bhi tumhari tarha bohot ghussa karta tha. :)

#241 nkg {"SC had already thrown it into garbage"}

nkg,
I am Salim Chauhan and I have not thrown anything like than into the garbage. Please don't lie.

Salim Chauhan (SC)

nkg #245 {"the point of discussion is pakis/moslas, the "international migraine" (Madeline Albright)...we indians are only participants of this forum"}

nkg,
You should have seen Madeline's face on live TV when Jim Baker described global warming as a result of a bunch of fat cows farting. It really appeared that he was referring to her comments as contributing to global warming. So much for her comments.

#248 Posted by CoolAL on December 2, 2008 11:56:15 am
{"Here is Robert Kagan in today's Washington Post"}

Al,
Jewish writers have an axe to grind when it comes to Pakistan - nukes, support for Palestinians, and voting NO on Israel in the UN in 1948. They can be expected to support Pakistan about as impartially as Ahmedis on Chowk.

Pakis and Paki supporters time for glib talking is over. Nobody is buying it. This includes Indian Muslims... I will post M.J. Akbar's article next

Here is Robert Kagan in today's Washington Post

Washington Post. Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Re: # 245

Listen idiotic nkg- your explanation has shown me more about your intellect and exposure to civility than I can point out in my reply. Madlen Albright has her reasons for calling muslims a migrane but Muslims have to look at their interests- if you look inside of yourself then you will find out that India is responsible for a lot of nonsense against muslims and against pakistan- against kashmir- dismembering pakistan by supporting anti state elements in bangladesh- you guys deserve our wrath!

Please sign the petition for better treatment of our commandos�

I was saddened to see how poorly our commandos were trained and equipped. Please sign and pass on to your friends.

Thanks.

Mahesh

http://www.petitiononline.com/mnop1234/petition.html

Re: # 211
qyo....
India is not matter of any concern...India is successful democracy and nobody doubts about that ( apart from Paki moslas, who are living in the best form of democracy ( they claim); The beduinocracy....
the point of discussion is pakis/moslas, the "international migraine" (Madeline Albright)...we indians are only participants of this forum. Couple of brits, australians, thais, french, spanish and burmese would have added the proper hue to spectrum....so you beduinoids are getting spared....

Re: # 225
Salim Ch...
Indians behaving as Indian is very normal...if some strange Indian bipeds behave as semi-beduin, they should be dumped into beduin land....whether there is any space available or not....

Re: # 234
Salim....
Yeh, last official ruler of the whole area was Maharaja Hari Singh and he had handed over that land to India...At least India can claim, whatever was under Hari Sing's rule as part of it....
Pakis call it Free (Adaze) Kashmir and put their armed forces in FREE Kashmir, included PoK people into Paki Govt. setup....that is the FREEDOM the PoK is enjoying....

Re: # 234
Salim...
like Israelis should take responsibility of terrorist activities of HAMAS, as there is no separate country called Palestine....

Re: # 208
Shah2...
Srikrishna Commission report has no leagal binding...SC had already thrown it into garbage can...

#238,

Salimbhai, there are two kinds of people who cross the LoC:
- innocent villagers near the border; most of them are illiterate and can not read a map.
- terrorists. They don't do it inadvertently anyway.

So, you see, there's not enough justification for the GoI to undertake the hard work and spending to have its maps redrawn, when there is no change in the official position. You know how lazy our babus are.

As for Pakistan's maps, they have to depict whatever enhances the self-esteem of the Pakistani people. But natural.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree on this one trivial issue :-)

If those are Indian territories surely Pakistanis should have no problem if India decides to get rid of the garbage that has accumulated there.

KCS #237,
Arey Bhai,
Why not just show it as disputed territory or even as "POK" Kashmir, just as Pakistani maps show it as Maqbooza Kashmir and Azad Kashmir? At least people won't get confused and not cross the LoC inadvertently. :)

Re #236,

Salimbhai,

Good try. However, that is simply because the official view of the GoI on PoK is still that of a disputed territory. Why would GoI revise its maps when that official status has not changed? Now, if you are asking why that official status has not changed, it is a different matter of discussion altogether.

Let's say you bought a plot of land and then if it became disputed property for some reason (let's say someone encroached upon it or had some genuine legal dispute), and let's say you have had a long-drawn case in the courts and the case is still subjudice. You are unable to occupy that property because of the court's order. Would you claim that you no longer owned that property, and hence knock it off your asset list?

I am not getting into discussion of the Kashmir dispute here. I am just responding to your point. Until the official position on Kashmir changes, the GoI is well within its rights to keep its maps the way they are.

kcs #235,
KCS bhai,
Whether it was stolen or gifted, traded or taken, the fact remains that we are not talking of old maps requiring updates. These are new maps from the GoI deliberately insisting that Mirpur, Muzaffarabad, Gilgit, Skardu, and the Neelam Valley are all in India proper.
Now, the locals know better. But the poor tourists and common civilians, not to mention your average decent law-abiding terrorists, have no way of knowing whether they are in Azad Kashmir or Maqbooza Kashmir - thus getting on the wrong side of the divide, just because they trusted the GoI.

BTW, Maqbooza in Arabic means "Occupied." Lhe..he.. Good one. :-)

#234,

Salimbhai,

When someone's car or motorcycle gets stolen in India, they better register a police complaint asap. Else, if the vehicle is used in a crime or terror attack, they could be held liable and arrested, interrogated, tortured, subject to narco-analysis, etc., etc.

Similarly, when India lost those areas of Kashmir (now referred to as PoK or Azad Kashmir), the Indian govtt should have revised its maps so that it would not be held accountable for any criminal/terrorist activities happening there.

Isn't that your theory? Absolutely brilliant :-).

Masanamuthu #230 {"he..he.. Good one. :-)
India can't claim that Pakistan trained the terrorists since you can show the Indian map and claim that it is actually in India that they are trained.."}

Mithu MiaN,
Genuwine Government of India maps - even provided to international news organizations such as CNN and BBC depicting Mirpur, Muzaffarabad, and other areas of Azad Kashmir as being in India. :)

#231 Posted by KaalChakra on December 1, 2008 1:34:20 pm
{"ha ha, salimbro, you have a way with words. OK, let me ask you.
...
What happens if lots of such people made those claims in Pakistan? Everyone else will take that as a little molehill?

How about if they made such claims regarding one grain of sand of India being more precious to them than all of Pakistan? :)"}

Kaal Bhayya,
Good to see you back to your normal self and not as angry as you have been recently. I too am saddened by the terrible loss of life in the land of my ancestors, who fought for the unity of Hindustan - whether against the foreign invader, Ghori, or the domestic terrorist Sivaji. Right now, I am quite upset with my fellow-Mohajir, Altaf Payee, for his terrorism that has created violence and death in my beloved Karachi.

Going back to the issue of sand, I have no problem if someone says that the sand of Mashad in Iran is more precious than all of Pakistan or the sand of Ajmer is more precious than all of Pakistan. These are emotional statements symbolizing affection and not meant to denigrate anyone or anything. We allow considerable license to our poets in Urdu and Dawa, who writes poetry, is certainly entitled to her share.

You probably know all the hot water Iqbal got into because of his masterpiece "Shikwa." Also, it was a Muslim poet who said something like this about Gandhiji:

"Jagao na Baapu ko neend aagayi he
Jagao na Baapu ko neend aagayi he
Issa ibn-e-Maryam ki shafqat bhi isme
Hussain ibn-e-Haider ki jurrat bhi isme
Muhammad ke dil ki harrarat bhi isme
Jagao na Baapu ko neend aagayi he
Jagao na Baapu ko neend aagayi he"

Now, does that mean Gandhiji = Muslim Prophet?

Poetry in Urdu is very liberating from the constraints of dogma, blasphemy, and censorship.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ha ha, salimbro, you have a way with words. OK, let me ask you.

Would other Pakistanis be ok with a man who announced to the world that one grain of the sand in Iran was worth more to him or her than all of Pakistan?

What happens if lots of such people made those claims in Pakistan? Everyone else will take that as a little molehill?

How about if they made such claims regarding one grain of sand of India being more precious to them than all of Pakistan? :)

Also, if one checks Injun maps, Muzaffarabad appears to be in India as are Skardu, Gilgit, and whole Neelam Valley.

he..he.. Good one. :-)

India can't claim that Pakistan trained the terrorists since you can show the Indian map and claim that it is actually in India that they are trained..

#161 BJ2,
Thank you for tying the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the khakis of Pakistan, HP Sahib, the Paki military, and Jinnah Sahib all in one conveniently packaged mantra. Now, go ahead and chant that mantra to your heart's content. No one will ever accuse you of plagiarizing that one - not even Atif.

#166 Posted by BJ2 on November 30, 2008 3:37:51 pm
{"The surviving PAKISTANI terrorist is now singing!

Ex-soldier trained terrorists, says Kasab
1 Dec 2008, 0226 hrs IST, S Ahmed Ali, TNN

MUMBAI: "There were 24 of us who took one-year training in camps organised by Laskar-e-Taiba (LeT) at Mansera and Muzzarafabad in Punjab province of Pakistan. Ten of us were later handpicked for the Mumbai operation,'' said Ajmal Amir Kasab during interrogations."}

BJ2,
The surviving terrorist may be singing but you are definitely off-key. Before you plagiarize stuff and attribute it to others in quotations, please make sure that they are not trying to make you look like a fool.

I don't believe that Muzzafarabad and Mansera are in Punjab province of Pakistan.

This could be the Kasab's fellow of telling the world that he is not singing and that he is being tortured.

Also, if one checks Injun maps, Muzaffarabad appears to be in India as are Skardu, Gilgit, and whole Neelam Valley.

#166 Posted by BJ2 on November 30, 2008 3:37:51 pm
{"The surviving PAKISTANI terrorist is now singing!

Ex-soldier trained terrorists, says Kasab
1 Dec 2008, 0226 hrs IST, S Ahmed Ali, TNN

MUMBAI: "There were 24 of us who took one-year training in camps organised by Laskar-e-Taiba (LeT) at Mansera and Muzzarafabad in Punjab province of Pakistan. Ten of us were later handpicked for the Mumbai operation,'' said Ajmal Amir Kasab during interrogations."}

BJ2,
The surviving terrorist may be singing but you are definitely off-key. Before you plagiarize stuff and attribute it to others in quotations, please make sure that they are not trying to make you look like a fool.

I don't believe that Muzzafarabad and Mansera are in Punjab province of Pakistan.

This could be the Kasab's fellow of telling the world that he is not singing and that he is being tortured.

Also, if one checks Injun maps, Muzaffarabad appears to be in India as are Skardu, Gilgit, and whole Neelam Valley.

Re: # 222 tahmed agreed...actually inside Pakistan its the case of the chickens coming home to roost...too much religosity and mullahism are making a muck of our society and I keep seeing previously perfectly clean shaven people now sporting great beards...we definitely need a change in direction...unfortunately none of our governments made any efforts ever to develop the great human resources on tap by bringinging in education and enlightenment into the far reaches of the society

nkg #190 {"Yeh...why don't you guys migrate to the sands of Medina? you will get whole lot of sand there"}

NKG,
while not many Indians are allowed in Medina or Mecca, plenty of Injuns migrate to Riyadh, Jeddah, Kuwait, Muscat, and Abba Dabba Doo Buy. Plenty of sand there too but plenty of dinars, dirhems, and other Musla money.

So before you start expelling your hated Muslas, you may want to consider some minorities in BD, Bali, Malaysia, UAE, and all over the Gulf.

#202 Pardesi and #205 Elkavya,

Dear Pardesi Sahib and Kaal Bhayya,
I personally do not express my national or religious loyalties in such emotional terms as my life being equal to a grain of sand anywhere. Having said that, I was merely saying that I understood the logic behind Ms. Dawa's statements. Such similes and metaphors are frequently used by poets in expressing their undying love for their lovers, their nations, and their religions.

Saying that one will love someone till the mountain crumbles to the sea, does not mean one longs for landslides. Saying that one will love someone till the rivers run dry doesn't make one an aspirant of draught.

Saying that one is hungry enough to eat the rectum out of a skunk is a common American expression in the South. It doesn't necessarily mean that one has one's mouth adjacent to a skunk's bottom.

I think that you understand that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. :)

goldfinger and qyousuf, if you had arrived at all those wise conclusions long back it would have saved you so much trouble. But better late than never.

the hell with the indians. they are neutralized militarily anyway.

anyway...india is not the real problem (irritating indian habits notwithstanding). the real problem is the terrorist who have bred inside pakistan. pakistan should see mumbai as an opportunity to rid pakistan of all these jehadi outfits that are incapable of achieving anything other than death and destruction and victimization of those subject to their rule.

btw, if i was you, i wouldnt be proud of any relative giving shelter to the japanese puppet Bose, who would have simply replaced the departing brits with a far more monstrous regime reporting to his japanese overlords in the sub-continent.

Its absolutely appalling to see the Indians true and ugly faces of hate and bigotry. Now we know how they could be capable in committing all those brutal murders and atrocities during partition and more recently in Gujrat and everywhere else. Now we must know as to why it was so important to have a separate homeland, though at one time my grand uncle, at great risk to his own life and limb, gave shelter for a number of days to the fugitive Subhash Chandra Bose from the British in the Frontier mountains, and helped him pass on to Afghanistan.

Listen everyone- I am not an indian hater- I just don't like this national psyche on both sides but especially in India that tries in their own pathetic way to show how they are going to eat pakistan alive and that pakistan is so pathetic- if its so pathetic then why haven't you guys been able to get the other half of kashmir in the last 60 years-the answer to all our problems are to actually respect each other- we don't have to love each other but we can tolerate each other and then start to be a little close to the idea of civility that many in india think their country is- civil- you guys are a travesty right now- we in pakistan look at your progress and wish you well-show a little maturity especially on these forums so that people can really benefit and gain from it- I won't be responding to any further tit for tat name callings- but I seriously hope for our kids and our future that we as people can extinguish the fires of hatred and prosper and do wonderful things with our nations.

Re: # 214

yeah either that or like you in india he never did and learnt english on the streets of andheri- pathetic!

Re: # 215

Yeah but then again thats your wishful thinking- this is from a nation that made profit out of the coffins of your kargil dead- that burns and rapes gujrati muslim women and is still numb- we will take you out of your numbness man just wait and see you pathetic worldly indians

too bad you indians will never succeed cuz pakistanis at heart aren't afraid of anything- least of all hindus!

That may be true. But there are some Pakistanis who can sacrifice the whole of Pakistan for a grain of sand of a holy place. We're betting on it to happen soon. :-)

here is what Obama said...


"Sovereign nations have the right to protect themselves, US President-elect Barack Obama said on Monday, when asked if India could follow
the same policy he advocated during his election campaign — of bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan if there was actionable evidence and Islamabad refused to act on it.

Although Obama said he did not want to comment on the specific situation involving India and Pakistan, his tacit endorsement of New Delhi adopting the same policy was circumscribed by two caveats: first, let the investigators reach definite conclusions about the Mumbai carnage, and second, see if Pakistan will follow through with its commitment to eliminate terrorism. "

tahmed is delusional as always

Yes, Fosa, the terrorists were justified in their actions because of what you said. Happy?

qyousuf (and riaz bhai of an earlier post)

We are all surprised that Shoaib went to school. Probably he got educated in Pakistan or Malaysia or somewhere else. :)

to illustrate the last part of #212: see Obama's press conference today, where he specifically mentioned Zardari's response, and strengthened the pakistan government's hands in dealing with terrorist scum by saying he assumes Pakistan will now follow-up on Zardari's words.

#211 this habit of turning a tragedy into an opportunity to point fingers is clearly quite pervasive (from their foreign minister to right-wing hindu politicians down to chowk posters here).

However you are dead wrong when point to the karachi violence and baluchistan and say "soooooo if India can do this- why the hell can't pakistan do the same to you guys". What you say reflects the same mindset that musharraf had, when he refused to hand over suspects to india - and thus instead of ridding Pakistan of some terrorists, ended up creating much bigger problems of terrorism for Pakistan itself as well as for the rest of the world.

Zardari, to his great credit, has taken the high road on this. Not just that, he has taken the trouble of discussing this with PML N and other significant parties, and thus demonstrated not just the right instincts but also provided leadership. I for one never expected mr. 10% to show such wisdom.

The immediate results of Zardari's approach are already there: Zardari has effectively made Pakistan a part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem. And it is the Indian government that looks incompetent and small-minded in its stupid finger-pointing.

I am surprised to see how many ignorant educated people India produces- you guys sicken me with your ignorance- You say nothing of the hindu right wingers- the hindu mob but are always quick to blame pakistan- you guys are just mentally sick- hopefully these sort of wake up calls will make you think hard about what your society is doing wrong- agreed that there are problems in every society- but anti muslim and anti pakistani feeling is institutionalized in india just like anti muslim feeling is getting entrenched in the western world- the problems are political- I want Indian muslims and die hard fanatical Hindus to investigate how india is formenting terrorism in pakistan through afghanistan- india is funding the balochistan liberation army- india is involved in karachi's ethhnic politics- soooooo if India can do this- why the hell can't pakistan do the same to you guys- its a sick game of politics and india is to blame for it occupying kashmir illegally and also using all possible postures to isolate and strangle pakistan's existence- too bad you indians will never succeed cuz pakistanis at heart aren't afraid of anything- least of all hindus!

what kind of an idiotic article--funny you mentioned that you even went to school. Indian muslims really do need all the help in the world!

UMGRATEFULL

This was your last gift have forgotten ?????????????


Gujarat riots: Nanavati submits report

Zeenews Bureau

Ahmedabad, Sept 18: The Nanavati Commission, which is investigating the 2002 Godhra train carnage and subsequent riots, submitted on Thursday its report to the Gujarat’s Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

Retired Supreme Court Justice G T Nanavati was heading the probe into the riots in Gujarat.

The two-member commission examined more than 1,000 witness in the span of six years.

According to sources, the report was submitted in the office of the Chief Minister in the presence of Minster of State for Home Amit Shah.

The commission will submit its final report in due course, the sources said.

The contents of the report submitted on Thursday were, however, not immediately known.

The Gujarat government on March 6 had set up a commission of enquiry headed by retired High Court judge K G Shah into the Godhra train burning and the subsequent violence.

Later, bowing down to criticism from activists and political parties over Shah's alleged proximity to the BJP, the government reconstituted the commission on May 22, appointing retired Supreme Court Justice G T Nanavati to lead the commission.

Fifty eight people, including 25 women and 15 children, were burnt alive inside railway bogey in Godhra on February 27, 2002, when a violent mob set ablaze four coaches carrying karsevaks from Ayodhya. The incident led to the flaring up of communal riots in Gujarat, claiming more than 1,000 lives.


Photo Gallery

Click here for more pictures

We gave you one gift



Srikrishna Commission Report
By M. Hanif Lakdawala
One of the parameters to judge a civilized society is its impartial judiciary and application of law equally to one and all, no innocent being punished and none of the guilty, howsoever high and mighty, spared.

The family members of 1,500 people killed, 1,829 injured and 165 missing in the gruesome riots of December 1992, and January 1993 in Mumbai are denied justice till this date. A society which denies justice to its citizens cannot be called just and civilized.

Setting up commissions of inquiry is a knee-jerk response by those in authority whenever they anticipate a building-up of public outrage. The public in turn has become cynical of these commissions and their reports.

In the case of B.N. Srikrishna commission report, however, the citizens cannot afford to be cynical. The psyche of the city after the 1992-1993 riots had been ruptured. Mumbai, till then a land of opportunity and amity between the different strata of the society, turned out to be a requiem for a voice of sanity and peaceful co-existence, after the riots.

Inspite of the Shiv-Sena Government's efforts-to, first put the report in cold storage, then a shameful act of maligning the character of an honest and an upright judge by playing communal card, the truth has come out in open exposing the perpetrators of the holocaust to public scrutiny.

The commission has submitted its report in two volumes. The first consists of seven chapters, covering the background leading to the riots of December 1992 and January 1993 and gives its finding and recommendations commensurate with its terms and reference.

Volume II of the report discusses the evidential nuances and detailed narration of events, in respect to 26 police stations under the jurisdiction of the Mumbai Police Commissionerate.

Besides, it contains the analysis of the statements by political leaders, journalists and certain police officers.

Displaying exemplary courage, justice B.N. Srikrishna has produced a report that is unflinching in its conclusion that it has implicated the Shivsena and its leadership in the Mumbai riots of 1992-93. The report has squarely blamed Shivsena supremo Bal Thackeray, who commanded his loyal Shiv Sainiks to retaliate by organised attacks against Muslims.

Equally important was the Srikrishna's report's indictment of the Chief Minister, Mr. Manohar Joshi, and M.P. Mr. Madhukar Sarotdar for their defence of the sort of incendiary propaganda that ignited the riots of January 1993 in their exposition of a "doctrine of retaliation" suggesting the "Shivsena's terror" was the "true guarantee of the safety of citizens".

As expected, justice B.N. Srikrishna does not spare the Congress for its "vacillation", "effete political leadership", and for allowing factional feuds to fuel the mayhem that tore Mumbai's social fabric asunder. Both Mr. Sharad Pawar, the then defence minister and his adversary, Mr. Sudhakarrao Naik, the Chief Minister, are hauled up in the report.

Justice Srikrishna had a detailed analysis of police role during the 1992-93 riots. In his report he has indicted 15 police officers including then joint commissioner of police R.D. Tyagi, and 16 police constables for their 'delinquency' during the riots.

The commission has traced the roots of the riots to L.K. Advani's Rathyatra and the celebration of the demolition of Babri Masjid by some Hindus. The commission has taken exception to certain slogans like "mandir vahee-banayenge" and "Is desh mein rehana hoga to Vande Mataram Khana hoga".

For the riot's victims, the Srikrishna commission has held a significance that goes beyond the merely therapeutic. It remains the last hope of a traumatised populace for settling the record straight, for identifying loopholes in the administration and above all, for securing justice.

Of the Maharashtra government's logic of 'Let bygones be by gones', justice Srikrishna opines that, "By that logic, you would have to scrap the entire criminal law. It is based on the theory of retribution -identify the criminal and punish him. As a judge it is my duty to see that the guilty are punished. If a judge says, "Let bygones be bygones", he is abdicating his responsibility."

British, Jurist Sir Cyril Salmon, in a lecture on 'Tribunals of inquiry' had observed that in all countries, certainly in those which enjoy freedom of speech and free press, moments occur .. causing a nation-wide crisis of confidence in the integrity of public life.. when it does, it is essential that public confidence should be restored, for without it no democracy can long survive.. " Indisputably, the Mumbai riots of 1992-93 constituted such a moment.

There is a conspicuous tendency within political and official circles to minimise the scale of the murder, mayhem, arson and sheer human suffering in the riotous anarchy which convulsed Mumbai during 1992-93 communal riots.

Regrettably, most of the criminal cases lodged during the riots by the police were abruptly closed pending the commission's report. Action against errant police officers was also withheld on the same grounds. Justice Srikrishna, has now said that the time has come for "retribution" and for the guilty to be exposed.

Laxity in enforcing the writ of the law and meting out the punishment prescribed by the law will send out all the wrong signals to both law-breakers and law enforcers all over the country.

Yet it needs to be re-emphasised that the enforcement of the law and due process is almost entirely depending upon the pressure of public opinion, because given half a chance, politicians and policemen-who one can safely assume are guilty of dereliction of duty, if not worse-will scuttle or ignore the commission's recommendations. It is for the people of this great country to build up enough pressure through peaceful means to ensure that justice is not only done but also seen to be done.

The irony is that the individuals and the party accused of committing the crime are in power. It is up to them to act upon the recommendations of the Srikrishna commission and punish the guilty. The Sena-BJP alliance government, instead of making expiation for their sins, is busy offering oblations and paying obeisance to their Chief Bal Thackeray.

Democracy means the ruler must serve the interest of citizens. In a republic, there are no divine rights. To preserve the pluralistic nature of our social and political order, and by that same token, ensure that fanatics, irrespective of their religious affiliations, are kept on a tight leash, can only be achieved through providing justice to all, at any cost. Only justice can act as an anodyne for our fractured social fabric.


Top

------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------

Demand for the Implementation of Srikrishna Commission Report
Prof. Dr. Mumtaz Ali Khan
Srikrishna Commission Report is a well argued, well evidenced and thought-provoking document produced by Justice Srikrishna, a God fearing, socially sensitive and judiciously conscious judge of the High Court of Mumbai. The Commission was set up primarily to look into the causes, courses and consequences of the riots which disfigured the fair image of the cosmopolitan city of Mumbai in December 1992 and January 1993. This commission was set up by the Congress government in Maharashtra. The Report was submitted to the present BJP-Shiva Sena combined government of Maharashtra.

This Report which was reluctantly laid on the table of the houses of Maharashtra Legislature has become a controversial one. It is equally significant as it contains many pertinent sociological inputs. It exposes the deeply poisoned mind and foul hands of some activists of BJP-Shiva Sena. It upholds the great social and moral values that the vast majority of Hindus have retained despite the riots initiated by some Muslims and Hindus. The tolerance preached by the broad philosophy of great sages and scriptures of the Hindus is now seen practised by a vast majority of them.

Let me analyse in brief the reactions of the press and people at large to the contents of the Report. What are the reactions of the various political parties? In general, as said earlier, the vast majority of the Hindu intellectuals have condemned the unruly behaviour of the Shiva Sena, namely Bal Thackeray, who alone is responsible for the well planned and executed attacks on the Muslims. The heavy losses in terms of both lives and properties are said to be unprecedented. All the political parties barring Shiva Sena BJP have outrightly condemned them and appreciated the commission. The press which reflects the realities of the society has condemned them. Thus, the Report of Srikrishna is accepted by the whole nation barring a microscopic section of the Hindu population.

The prejudice of Shiva Sena BJP is seen from the two decisions of the Maharashtra government run by Shiva Sena BJP. This government had dissolved the commission itself on frivolous grounds as it knew the music it had to face when the Report was out. It is only the great Atal Bihari Vajpayee during his first short lived tenure as the Prime Minister who asked the Maharashtra government to allow the commission to renew its work. Perhaps Shiva Sena might be cursing Vajpayee today.

The Report is simply rejected by the Shiva Sena BJP government on the ground that it is "Pro-Muslim and anti-Hindu". There cannot be anything more absurd and illogical than this. How can Srikrishna be pro-Muslim? It is true that his reasoning is virtually opposed to that of this combined ruling party. While the former is a judge free from biases and prejudices, the latter are just the opposite. While Srikrishna says that the main provocation for the Muslims was the demolition of Babri Masjid and this provocation was spontaneous, the Shiva Sena BJP rulers say that they have a different understanding of the genesis. It argues that the special civil code for the minorities, the reversal of the Supreme Court Judgment in Shah Bano Case, the Muslim opposition to the signing of Vande Mataram, the use of loud speakers for Namaz, honorarium granted for the Maulvis and the concessions given for the Haj pilgrims and so on are the real causes for the bitterness among the Hindus.

These feelings are confined to the BJP Siva Sena groups only and as such do not vouch for the entire Hindus. No other group or party has ever raised these issues so far. In fact, Muslims in general are not demanding subsidy for the Haj. Muslims want honest implementation of the various constitutional rights and safeguards for them. If they demand and if the government does it, how does this assume communal colour?

It is of great importance to point out what some great Hindus have said about this controversy. Mr. Tushar Gandhi, the great-grand-son of Mahatma Gandhi, the apostle of peace and harmony, filed a public interest writ petition in Mumbai High Court for directing the Maharashtra government and the Director General of Police to register Criminal cases against all those responsible for the 1992-93 riots. He has argued that the government cannot summarily dismiss the Report and the remarks made against Srikrishna are highly derogatory, contemptuous and unjustified.

Former Mumbai High Court Judge Justice H. Suresh has said "Srikrishna Report is a fair document and it was prepared on the evidence which was brought before justice Srikrishna. He has further said, (with reference to Bal Thackeray) "Today, even a former Prime-Minister like P.V. Narasimha Rao can be prosecuted, a former Chief Minister like Laloo Prasad Yadav can be prosecuted, US President Bill Clinton can be prosecuted". He means thereby why not Bal Thackeray be prosecuted.

In sum, if rule of law has to prevail, the Central government should dismiss the present Maharashtra Government, and ensure legal processes against the culprits not merely for the riots but also for insulting justice Srikrishna. The report and also the reactions of the secular Hindu leaders and the press should make Muslims in particular throughout the world realise that Hindus in general are the well-wishers of Muslims who are safe in their hands.


Top

------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------

Minority Groups on Srikrishna Report
By Andalib Akhter
NEW DELHI : At least 300 minority groups from Maharashtra have jointly petitioned the Supreme Court against the state government's rejection of the Srikrishna commission report finding on the 1992-93 Mumbai riots.

Named as "Action committee for the implementation of Srikrishna commission report" the petition filed on August 21, seeks a direction from the court to declare invalid, the Maharashtra government's, "memorandum of action to be taken" on Srikrishna report. By that memorandum, the state government had rejected the Srikrishna report and declared it as "biased".

The committee also appealed the supreme court to abolish the Article 3(4) of Inquiry Commission Act, which enables the government to reject the commission without any reason.

The action committee also seeks direction from the SC that the victims of Mumbai riots be given compensation as was done in case 1984 anti-Sikh riots.

Later addressing a press conference the spokesman of the Action Committee Mr. C.M. Ibrahim said the rejection of the commission report by the Maharashtra government was a unusual step.

He said by rejecting a report prepared by a judge of High Court and terming it biased the state government has insulted the judiciary.

By terming the report anti-Hindu, the state government wanted to give a communal colour to the issue.

Meanwhile Maharashtra Chief Minister Manohar Joshi on Aug 24 said here that he would prefer to resign than to take action against Bal Thackery and Shiv Sainks.

Re: # 202
Parde...
If some morons can belive in cock and bull stories of a 7th century beduine scoundrel; lead a life of semi-beduin and sometimes even act against the society, which provides all the facilities he/she avails, then they deservs to be in arab sands.....not in "sujalam suphalam sashya shyamalam" Bharat....you should get what you deserve....
living in India, I will prefer to wake up early in the morning by listening to the chriping of birds, not some beduinod yelling in arabic....if somebody do that, dump him in arab sands...let the moon god responds to it or the camels, lizards etc...

If you can collect the maestro's (Satyajit Ray's) film "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goopy_Gyne_Bagha_Byne"... I will sure, you will find this kind of funda there...
"Chnechaichhilis Kane....." (Why were you shouting in the early morning?")

Re: # 178
zeena(h)...
"Both India and Pakistan have had been bomb blasting each others citizens to destabilize each other.....LOL
Both India and Pakistan are burning each other alive to destroy each other...LOL
Both India and Pakistan are targeting their economy hubs like Karachi/Mumbai....LOL
Both India and Pakistan are trying their best to make each other failed states....LOL..."

Either you are very innocent or pure %&^*#....
India has enough of its problems, apart from biggest migraine of the world, Pakiland. Nether India gets scared of Paki economic might nor from the military power...it is the jihadi/islamic problem that india gets irritated with...now, Pakistan is in the centre of all type of irritation and India has nothing to do with it...do you feel, India has brought ISAF closer to Paki border?
Neither Jihad,Islam, Mosque,Madressah etc.. are indian concept; nor india funded these devil factories....
Because you people are %&*$ up with constant infusion of 7th century beduinism, why India have to suffer for that?
If possible, you bring back your prophet (if he can claim of splitting the moon from arab deserts, he should have the power to do anything on earth) to take the country closer to your master, Saudi Arabia...we will be happy with that....

Pardesi and salimbro

Ms Dawa stays in Pakistan (hopefully) and can believe whatever she or other Pakistanis want for Pakistan.

But for anyone staying in India (or any other non-Muslim country) that kind of belief would create problems that cannot be solved by any kind of dialogue.

live as nuicense creator and...

Re: # 197
beduin32...
....or leave as nuicense creator for the rest of the life and contribute towards it....

#150 Salim

I dont think you get it. Many people die for their countries or religious values. But she wants Indian muslims to sacrifice India for one fking sand of a third rate backward country. I would not care if she wants to become shaheed for whatever she believes in. Why expect Indian muslims to do the same? Who appointed her spokesperson for Indian citizens and make such stupid comments? Unbeliveable.

As I said earlier, now do you understand why normal civilized people who are your neighbors (but are not muslims) think that you guys are more loyal to camels than the country you live in? This is expected from illiterate people but highly educated folks like you should be free from this garbage and not make or defend such statements.

You see, such morons may be very few out of many decent loyal citizens, but your statements make every muslim a suspect. Such stupid statements may be fine if you live in a muslim country but when you live among believers of other faiths, be careful what you say.

#200 you can "bear and move on", or you can red flag and move on, or you can ignore, or you can describe them for what they are. and when you talk of "some decorum in spite of extraordinary provocation" from a man who has done nothing other then spew venom on chowk the past 10 years; and when you talk of the rhetorical "only hindus use vulgar language", ignoring the communal filth which hindu posters have laced this and other boards with using mumbai as an excuse, that tells me you and I are not on the same wave-length. So cheers and have a good day.

#199
Sir
So, your conclusion is that only Hindus use vulgar language? I think most vulgar language is used for arjun but he still maintains some decorum in spite of extraordinary provocation. Now a days, he retaliates only in response to a few inviduals but you don't find him cribbing about use of this language by his adversaries.
Anyway, I in any case have personal dislike for this kind of language but in cyberspace, one can't do anything except bear and move on.
Regards

Humsab: you left out the last part "hiding behind nicks on chowk", which makes it clear it is not directed at all hindus, or even all hindus on chowk.

You think the language I used does not describe such individuals who indulge in toilet and sexual "humor" on chowk using anonymous nicks?? Bravo to you!

And following is to be considered good language?????
'foul-mouthed, cowardly hindu trash'
Bravo!

#182 "Mr Shoib Change ur religion than changing ur name"

and become like...the foul-mouthed, cowardly hindu trash hiding behind nicks on chowk???

Re: # 57
AKCheema...
"what in the name of God is ballat kaar?? "
You mean rape? Oh, you can do every dirty thing in the name of God, provided you have to make people believe that you represent God and the other persons have faith in God......

NB: Ramayana or Mahabharata is not word of God. Nobody has claimed that....


The strange part of this entire episode is -
Congress got rid of Sivraj Patil and hoping that it will save it's face.....
Rane and brigade got rid of Deshmukh.....
Vasundhara Raje resurfaced with terror ads.....
Everything will come back to normalcy (for Indians) but what about these foreign tourists to whom, we used to say "Atithi Devo Bhaba"....

Shoaib
You are turning out to be The Coolest One. Good job!
Keep it up young man!!!!
regards

Re: # 182

Ranjit Patil

Unfortunately, your post still contains errors in spelling.

Re: # 122
bull...
"while pakistanis may be on edge, if this turns out to be a pakistani operation, as they don't want a war with india....indian muslims must be on an even thinner edge, if this turns out to be an indian muslim operation.....pakistanis will be able to defend themselves in case of a war.....who will defend the indian muslims (other than arundhati roy and mahesh bhatt)......."

indian moslems are realy in very bad shape and jinnah has created semi heaven (not the actual one with 72 arab virgins...) for moslems...why on earth they don't migrate to Pakiland?...OK leave it, can Pakistan open the job market for Indian moslems? or Provide medical expense of 10 million Indian Moslems, or say pay Jejya equivalent to GoI for 10million Indian moslems (india have to adopt such kind of law)....
At least Pakiland can do that for the sake of Islam?

Re: # 71
Ekal, BJ....
It is most desirable to groom a leader from the section itself, rather than pushing somebody, who had no practical knowledge about the problems of that section of the society....
Though Mayavati is not more successful than the brahmin Buddhadeb in creating opportunity for poors, but it is due to the lack of structure created inside their society....

Creating special laws for moslems (after giving away two areas as separate country) was something much more than enough...but then, it was like facilitating moslems to live like moslems....this is kind of generosity (creating a small dog house within your house rather than fully domesticating the dog) Gandhi/Nehru had shown....but then it has created the risk of rabies for family members, when the same dog met a street dog and caught the infection ( rabies virus)....

Re: # 21
Dawa...
If Adnan Shami can take Indian citizenship, why not these two can take Paki citizenship? You should take them and they should migrate....

Re: # 24
dawa....
"Re: # 20 Better life is a very small thing , we Pakistanis can sacrifice our lives and whole Pakistan on one sand grain of Medina and similarly indian muslim can sacrife whole india over Medina...."
Yeh...why don't you guys migrate to the sands of Medina? you will get whole lot of sand there.....and indians are not objecting you guys to live in deserts of Arabia, enjoying the holy sand, holy camel and it's urine,milk, and for males holy female camels.......host of other facilities....
It will be good for both Indians ( including Pakis) and moslems....

Re: # 109
bori...
"....but generally speaking, Muslim Indians have shorter life spans, worse health, lower literacy levels and lower-paying jobs...."

that is true for British moslems, french moslems, german moslems.......the list is very big....

a joke I can remeber....
Patient: Doctor, wherever I touch it pains....
Doctor: I have to treat your finger....

Re: # 87
Simon....
"So much so, that he is only too willing to tow the farcical propaganda about Pakistan/ISI behind every leaf and blade of grass in india...."

I have told you stay at your house to watch the heroics of ISAF forces....

Re: # 147
Ess...
"I'd imagine that if Khilafat were to be established..."
means biggest stable under Saudi Beduins...would they like to own such a big herd?...it will cost very high...But somehow beduins are now becoming cunning....they are not providing free food to their pet animals (Pakis)....

Re: # 184
Majumder....
You can not avoid stereotyping...people draw conclusion from statistical data and analysis based on the data...islam and moslems have enough of it to avoid it or dislike it...this fellow is loosing nothing by changing a nasty association....

after couple of dog bites and attack on children by stray dogs, BMC (Bangalore Municipal Corporation) decided to cull stray dogs...it was very bad...almost everybody was against it...but it was the most feasible solution bangalore municipal corporation thought of....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Nkg moshai,

There is no reason for Shoaib or anyone else to change his religion for your benefit

Regards

Re: # 178
Zeena(h)...
Indians are not bombing anybody....It is the moslems, who are doing it everywhere....

Mr. Shoiab, if want to live a decent life, why you want to associate yourself with something very nasty...islam or moslems do not have great history in india and accross the world...so, if a landlord, for pre-cautionary measure, wants to avoid moslas, it is not his problem...why don't you change your name and be sikh or christian or buddhist? why to stick to medieval arab barbarism?

Sorry for spelling mistake..

Mr Shoib Change ur religion than changing ur name...

All ur brothers across the world are supporting terrorits..
There is no basic human rights to minority in any muslim nation ....

Re: # 178 Hi Zeena ..when did Indian killed pakistanis..
Please let me know..this is smart way to sideline main issue...

Mr..Shoib...Change ur religion than changing ur religion...

All ur brothers across the world are supporting terrorits..
There is basic human rights to minority in any muslim nation

Re: # 177

Really. Go to Chennai go to Thiruvallikeni and then the police station there. Look for a case registered in June 1999 against Rahimathullah and others for rioting.

The provocation was that when the news of mutiliation of Capt Kalia and his jawans came out and there was intense anger one person Naidu said at a tea stall these Pakistanis are pigs first in Tamil then in Hindi for our benefit. Before we could understand we were pounced upon by a mob of muslais led by the said person for calling people of a Mulsim nation as pigs. (Remember Thriuvallikeni is the only muslai majority area in Chennai). We fought back but more and more muslais joined only however the fact that the police came ASAP restored peace. Naidu was slashed 3 or 4 times across his face and body with an ice pick which thankfully was a bit blunt.

The said Rahimathullah had a son Karimathullah who used to work for gasp Infosys and was waylaid by Naidus caste men and killed. The case is still doing the rounds of Chennai courts and was tried to be revoked by DMK government twice but their lawyer so botched up the case (some say intentionally) that the HC intervened to say trial will continue.

This is Indian Muslims for you.

When muslais are taught that anything that the Hindus do for you is their right as a tithe and that at all times they must show solidarity with the Ummah you will get reactions like these.

Indian muslai may reject Pak today but they along with the Banglas are the original progenitors of TNT.

We continue to fool ourselves and gloss over our leaders mistakes and repeat them over and over again a la BJ2.

The fact we did not have an exchange of population in 1947 would prove costly for us in the long run.

It has taken all of my self control to be civil to you while writing this. Hopefully you will not end up as a lunatic like the muslais and BJ.

Best Regards
Sanatani

Both India and Pakistan have had been bomb blasting each others citizens to destabilize each other.....LOL
Both India and Pakistan are burning each other alive to destroy each other...LOL
Both India and Pakistan are targeting their economy hubs like Karachi/Mumbai....LOL
Both India and Pakistan are trying their best to make each other failed states....LOL

Now Europe,North America(Canada/USA), Australia are living in peace and harmony where all of them respect each others economical boomings and respect each others citizens lives.......

They do everything possible to make their countries peaceful and to disrupt India/Pakistan at any cost....LOL

When will India/Pakistan wake up? When will India/Pakistan learn?

Not in my life time.....tsk,tsk,tsk

So, being the super power ( soon to be), India should behave as a super power in this region and just quit bombing Pakistani innocent citizens...........in return India will get prosperity , peace and harmony with Pakistan. India should quit dancing on others tunes, just quit acting moronishly, start acting smartly......

The news about the terrorists being Pakistanis was aired more by the channels and was NOT accepted by the government for a long time. Infact, all questions to government about this were given with studied silence and couched in vague ways.

The reality of this denial by educated pakis is because you represent the filth of the earth and you are responsible for terrorism on a global scale. You carry your hate filled ideolog of TNT up your sleeves wherever you go. Your idea of Pakistan was based on the TNT ideology of HATE- i.e. muslims and hindus cannot live together.

And when you see successful indian muslims - you hate them because it a direct falsification of the ideology of Pakistan - i.e. hindus and muslims cannot live together for so long.

Hindus and indian muslims have come up with a mutual understanding now after so many years and Paistani muslims hate them for NOT accepting their call to jehad.

That is why YOU fake yourselves as Indian muslims so that hindus attack indian muslims in retaliation.

The problem is that Indian Muslims have rejected the Paki idea of modern day-Dawah i.e. the call for accepting their TNT. Consequently, they consider successful and educated Indian muslims like Shoaib etc. as a direct affront to their ideology of Pakistan.

Thus, all Pakistani muslims HATE Indian muslims. Even murtids like Hamid scoff at indian muslims. That is why they believe when a Pakistani Jehadi from Karachi kills hindus and other indians pretending to be muslims from "hyderabad-deccan" .

Pakistanis want to be like indian muslims (and that is a well known secret that they want to be "DESIS") and are tremendously jealous of them - their hatred for indian muslims is even more intense than their hatred for evil-hindoos that is taught in their Islamiyat. That is why the Karachi-Terror-Kid killed indian muslims inside Taj but let the Turkish-muslim couple go unsacathed.

PAkistanis hate Indian muslims. Period. So much so that they are even more than willing to use the good will of indian muslims towards them by making them accessories to their perverse jehad.

But 26/11 would change it all . I think now educated indian muslims like Shoaib have realized the evil designs of Pakistanis against them who want them to be embroiled in riots and their idea of Jehad against non-muslims.

Indian muslims DO NOT want pretenders to their faith come from the rejected land called Pakistan and fight for them. Sorry, it is not their idea of fight. Sorry, it is not their idea of Jehad. Sorry, it is not their idea of Islam.

Ref Salim_Chauhan #153

[Essensaur,
You bring up an excellent point about the Khilafat or Caliphate as a potential clearing house for Islamic matters. That is exactly the reason why the leaders in Medina came up with the concept. .....

Yes, such an office could be resurrected. But again, how do you convince the Soodis, the Egyptians, and some of the well-off absolute monarchies like Kuwait, UAE, and Oman to be subjected to a superior body? Perhaps others could discuss in more detail. Good thought on your part, though.]

I guess before an accused adultress in Afghanistan could send her appeal to the Caliph in Cairo, she would have been stoned to death by a mob!

Even electronic communication is not as fast as a stone thrown at one's head.

Ref Urstruly #151

[4. Pakistan must re-evaluate its position too. If Pakistan can get 5 billion dollars from IMF to get through this crisis then why would it need American "help". If Americans are borrowing money from China (at interest) and giving it to us (with added interest) then why not borrow directly from China??]

Because, if you read the papers, you would know that China turned down Pakistan's request for $2 billion in loans. A Chinese official said that after due diligence China came to the conclusion that the deal would have been bad for China.

In short, China didn't want to throw good money after bad!

Ref bulleya #135

[turkey is, now, my favorite place to visit in europe.....malaysia can go toe-to-toe with any country.....]

Yup, Malaysia where you can revert to Islam even after death because some mullah says so and your body will not be handed over to your family.

Malaysia where civil rights are so strong a Muslim woman cannot marry a Christian man because it is against the Shariah.

Good example. Too bad you lumped it to gether with Turkey.

[however, it is the gcc which has totally turned my definition of the illiterate bedioun on its head.....

....with their 100 years of oil reserves, they are going to be quite a force......]

Nuke a couple of major oil fields and they will return to ridng their camels and flying their carpets for transportation.

Ref Bull-Yeah #122

[...and, for whatever reasons, i am afraid, they (the Muslims) are not doing well in india....i meet more indian christians in senior IT positions than indian muslims........even though christians in india are a fraction of muslims......]

Try reading some of my posts. Here is something for you:

#96 Posted by harimau on November 29, 2008 12:12:43 pm
Ref anil #85

All those screaming about mistreatment of minorities in India: here is a little thing for you to chew on.

Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion who is currently the chief minister of Masanamuthu's home state of Tamil Nadu brought in an ordinance (when the state's Legislative Assembly was in recess) to allow reservations in education and government jobs at 5% of the total for Christians. He also brought in a 5% reservation for Muslims.

Less than 6 months later, the same guy had to present a bill to the Legislative Assembly to undo the 5% reservation for Christians because the Christians protested that they could do better than the 5% quota on their own merit and that they feared that the quota would be used to limit them to 5% when they had the possibility of taking as much as they wanted if there were no quotas.

The Muslims expressed their gratitude to the chief minister for his generosity.

Talk about a difference in attitude!

[ i still argue that the best situation for everyone in south asia....specifically for indian muslims......is open borders, a joint ecnonomic union, like europe......where nationalism gets diluted as does ideology, and city and local loyalties take precedence......this requires some geographical issues (like kashmir) to be resolved......]

Yep, Kashmir Banega Pakistan!

Stuka,

Six months is a long time. I hope MMS survives but the amount of criticism now coming out of India will pick up a few more notches and soon can go even higher on decibel scale.

Btw, This is the first time I am reading more democratic Party blogs and web sites taking not so pro Indian approach. Never before I have seen dems so united in opposing Indian rhetoric. Some are in fact sympathetic to Pakistan. Which is a rare sight in the US media.
I guess the prospect of BJP taking over India is not appealing to the American liberals and democrats.

I hope the Pakistani government cashes on this good will.

Eklavya:

So, please don't get upset. Masan knows his history (far better than I and many others ever will) and seems to respect Gandhi just like you and most others do.


Thanks for your kind words. I'm just interested in history and learning stuff every week, keeping my mind open. that's all. In my interacts, I have often found that people really don't know what they are talking about, most of the time.

HP: " In india the process has started and I would like to see how long it takes for MMS to fall. Indian coalition is depended on Amar Singh who would desert them if interim PM ship is offered to him or his party.
"

Inconsequential. Elections are due in less than 6 months. What would be more interesting is the impact on polls on Delhi state elections that happened yesterday.

Echoes of Kargil?! Pakistanis refuse to accept the bodies of their own -- and feign ignorance.

And those Pakistanis who are shedding crocodilean tears for the plight of Indian Muslims, read below how at least some Indian Muslims feel!

Muslim body refuses to bury 9 killers
1 Dec 2008, 0604 hrs IST, Mateen Hafeez, TNN

MUMBAI: The Muslim Council on Sunday decided not to allow burial of the bodies of the nine terrorists killed during the Mumbai siege in the Marine Lines Bada Qabrastan (cemetery).

The council said it was trying to send a message to all cemeteries in India that none of the bodies should be buried on Indian soil.

Bhai Jagtap, a Congress MLA from VP Road-JJ constituency, told TOI some Muslim organisations had approached him demanding that the terrorists should not be buried in any cemetery in India.

"Considering their sentiments, I am trying to get in touch with deputy CM R R Patil and other senior leaders. I will forward this message to the state government," said Jagtap. The council authorities have handed over a letter to the Marine Lines cemetery in this regard.

In 2003, a Pakistani national killed in an encounter was buried in a Mumbai cemetery. This time, it has been decided not to allow burial of the terrorists because of the gravity of the attack. However, other Muslims organisations are yet to take a decision on the issue.

Ref atif2 #125

[.... majority of hindoos of chowk (and other forums) came out looking like monkey's ass.]

Or your face.

[In stark contrast to pakis behavior during similar tragedies in pakistan, there were no lofty words, no idealism, no uplifting talk, no high-mindedness from hindoos.]

Actually, we got plenty of that. We got statements from our Home Minister that terrorist acts will not be permitted implying that earlier terrorist acts received permission from the Government of India on an application submitted on Form 3742; from the Prime Minister that terrorist acts will not be allowed to tear the secular fabric of India; from newspapers such as the "Anti-Hindu" which said that India's sovereignty was being violated by this latest of terrorist acts -- it is so concerned about India's sovereignty that it railed against the Indo-US nuclear cooperation agreement but not about China's occupation of Indian territory.

[Rather, it was just plain impotent rage, vulgarity and shallowness from little people of various castes.]

Gasp, do you mean the brahmins and the Dalits were alike in condemning the Mozzies?

[And this is exactly why legions of civilizers through the history have taken it upon themselves to bring enlightenment to India, and inshallah will continue to do so.]

You mean that legions of camel jockeys who use kitty litter for toilet paper brought death and destruction to India starting with the Sindh.

[But for the most part, hindoos made it amply clear why they are stuck in the rut of castes and why their thoughts would never rise above their short heights.]

And I suppose your post here is a reflection of your ability to think beyond your truncated penis.

The surviving PAKISTANI terrorist is now singing!

Ex-soldier trained terrorists, says Kasab
1 Dec 2008, 0226 hrs IST, S Ahmed Ali, TNN

MUMBAI: "There were 24 of us who took one-year training in camps organised by Laskar-e-Taiba (LeT) at Mansera and Muzzarafabad in Punjab province of Pakistan. Ten of us were later handpicked for the Mumbai operation,'' said Ajmal Amir Kasab during interrogations.

According to sources, Kasab, 21, the only terrorist arrested by the Mumbai police, told his interrogators that Abdul Rahman, an ex-soldier popularly called Chacha, had given them training.

The sources said Kasab explained that the training was divided into seven phases. "He said the first phase was of ‘very hard physical training’ of three months which included running 10 to 15 km. The next three months were for marine training like swimming, surfing, diving and boating in high seas. The rest included arms and ammunition training,'' said a source.

After the training was over, they were sent to Mumbai for a "short internship'', Kasab is believed to have told the cops. This was the period when the accused did the reccee of the city and even went to the five star hotels (Taj and Oberoi), the sources said.

Sources said the Mumbai operation plot was planned in Karachi some six months ago. Joint commissioner of police (crime) Rakesh Maria said,"We are closely working with the all the central agencies who have earlier handled such situations.''

In a fresh development in the investigations, the Mumbai police called up their Gujarat counterparts to enquire about whether the terrorists used Amar Narayan, the skipper of the fishing trawler used by them, as a mole. Narayan was detained by Pakistan for three months for illegally entering into the Pak waters.

Police are now taking the help of top technical experts to break into the details of the GPS system and the satellite phone which they recovered from a terrorist at the Taj hotel. This GPS helped them to navigate the sea route from Karachi to Mumbai via Porbander, cops said.

The police have launched a manhunt for the few locals who have given the terrorists logistic support in the operation.

Re: # 157

[Had at that a single Hindu raised the voice against his own government "why are you massacring my fellow citizens?""]

Truly miaN, how could anybody say that about those "fellow citizens"?! These folks were sloganeering that they are Pakistanis -- so it was inappropriate to call them fellow citizens.

Unfortunately, the Pakistanis seem rather unwilling to take them in. So sad!

Next time, do the humanitarian thing and at least allow them to come in and stay and become the same source of satisfaction to Pakistan that they have proved to be to the Union of India!

You see, miaN, they had been warned to stay off the street because of Sec. 144. They broke it willingly and were (at least initially) willing to get shot for the cause of jihad. Why do you begrudge them their own share of the seventy two?!!

Stuka pai,
I will read that little later but once a thing happens many opportunities open up. I have written some where(not chowk) that governments in both countries are in danger of being usurped. In india the process has started and I would like to see how long it takes for MMS to fall. Indian coalition is depended on Amar Singh who would desert them if interim PM ship is offered to him or his party.
NOw by making too much noise India is aiding and abetting the fall of both government. It is time for damage control. I wrote yesterday on the other thread that guns are already out against the PPP or Zardari.

This also boxes Obama in too. The problem between the pentagon and the dems has a long history. So without divulging to much in the deep dark stories, I would say watch out many things would and could happen.

Ref shankar #117

[If I'm an Indian Muslim & I'm disillusioned with my parents' decision not to go over to Pakistan at the time of partition, could I exercise that right today?]

Ask the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh since 1971 that question. You will get the correct answer.

[I'm curious to know just how many disillusioned & discriminated Indian Muslims want to migrate to Pakistan, where they feel they have more freedom & less discrimination?]

The Pakistani High Commission in New Delshi is handing out immigrant visas as fast as they can. In fact, they have ordered special presses from the US for printing the visas on high-security paper at high speed; millions an hour! It is just that while the Pakistanis expect to clear the backlog of applications within a few days, the Indian Muslim population triples in that time period.

Ref borivili_express #109

[....the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2,000 people, most of them Muslims. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted.]

Change your name to Godhra Express.

That was the train in which 60 Hindu pilgrims were burnt to death in a Hindu-majority country for chanting their own God's name by the 13.4% minority Muslims.

Anything that happened in Gujarat was a reaction to that.

Do you want a similar reaction to what has just happened in Bombay? You would fully deserve it.

Salim miaN, stop playing HP's Tweedledum. If your civilian institutions are weak and your aam-janta lacks the guts to enforce its will over your parasitical khakis, how is that India's fault?!

No, it's not the "bellicose" Indian statements that cause your khakis' latest antics. It was only a matter of time and any other excuse would have done just as well. They have always had this perennial itch for grabbing power and for subverting the majority will of the people.

It is a congenital disease that comes to you courtesy of the Jinnah!

HP: The issue is not the Pathans. Bigger issue is the split between your civilian and your military leaders. All newspapers are reporting the same pretty much...it's amusing to read that it's Delhi that should be ashamed of its behavior. Shouldn't Pak speak with with one voice first? Is the head of the country the President (who offers to send DG ISI) or the CAS, who orders the President to backtrack?



With bated breath



Monday, December 01, 2008
Once more, in a scenario familiar to all of us, people watch developments to Pakistan’s east with fear and trepidation. As accusations following the Mumbai carnage from India, directed Pakistan’s way, become more and more belligerent, security officials have warned troops from the Pakistan-Afghanistan border could be moved across to the frontier with India. Pakistan has around 100,000 troops posted along its western border to combat terrorism. The warnings state that the next 48 hours (24 by the time this comes into print) will be crucial. Pakistan’s foreign minister has also stressed, in carefully measured words, the gravity of the situation and the need to be ready for the worst. The cabinet has met to discuss the growing tensions. TV channels have been broadcasting special programmes. President Asif Ali Zardari, who only days ago had made striking offers of a new relation with India, now does what he can to keep the peace, advising India not to over-react and promising an investigation if any evidence of involvement by individuals or groups based in Pakistan is offered up. The worried Pakistan government is obviously desperate to prevent the situation from accelerating and plunging Pakistan into yet another crisis.

But there are complications. The most grave among these are the indications that the Pakistan military is not seeing eye-to-eye with the government. The military high command is said to be upset over what is believes is the civilian government’s failure to consult it on key decisions; the initial agreement to send the DG ISI to India, which was then subsequently withdrawn, has added to the dangerous discord. The military set-up believes the government’s line is too soft and that it is giving way to India too readily (and this has been the case in the past with previous governments as well). The government for its part believes it is worth doing everything possible to prevent tensions bubbling out of control. Individuals within it are said to be genuinely shocked by the audacity of the assault on Mumbai in which 195 people died. It is understood the differences in perception were aired during a key meeting between the army chief, the President and the Prime Minister. It is unclear if any agreement was reached during their intense discussion. For the military of course, trained to be on the constant watch out for a threat from India, the present scenario fits in ideally with the text-book situation they have studied so often, through the years at academies and at refresher courses. There is evidence that Pakistan is being provoked through the pointed accusations being made, and, as conspiracy theories go, a deliberate effort is being made to drag it into a conflict it does not want. The Indian response to the Mumbai tragedy has been unwise, hasty and in many ways completely ludicrous. It has not yet said why it believes the Lashkar-e-Taiba is involved or how it has ruled out its own internal radical Muslim elements without a full investigation. The fact that the country is not far from elections and that the Congress is under pressure from a resurgent BJP may have something to do with why the response seems to resemble that expected of a child following a playground fist-fight, rather than a democracy with over 60 years of experience behind it. New Delhi should be ashamed of its behaviour.

But the problem of course is that wars go beyond the descriptions contained in military books or the accompanying graphs and diagrams suggesting tactics and strategy. They involve immense suffering and great terror. The fact that Pakistan and India today possess nuclear weapons of course raises the stakes till higher. Even short of a war, a new period of heightened tension with India will be damaging for both nations. In the present scenario, we need mediators. Washington seems to be the best option. For reasons of its own, it is closely following developments with anxiety. It has already stated Pakistan must abandon its hostility with India in favour of a more intense effort against terror. Islamabad needs at this moment to seek the assistance of the US, the UK and other allies to play a part in calming the situation, cautioning India against further aggression and helping bringing the troubled situation back to a more reasonable pitch. The alternatives are one we simply cannot afford.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 152

HP miaN, looks like the khakis and the jihadis are working out a deal to fukk-up (thanks, miaN Truly!) the land of Pakistan together. Did you consider the possibility that perhaps this is what they had in mind all along?!

Urstruly #151 {"People have really short memory. Just in the August of this month hundereds of thousands of Kashmiris set out to march to Pakistani border to remind world and their Hindu occupiers their international commitment towards Kashmir's democratic right to self-determine. How they were treated?? Hundereds of them were shot by machine guns by the occupying hindu army. Had at that a single Hindu raised the voice against his own government "why are you massacring my fellow citizens?""}

Urstruly,
I remember that well. I noticed that in Jammu, the Hindu troops used tear gas and batons to control the Hindu mobs. In Srinagar and near the Azad Kashmir border, they used deadly ammunition. I made a point about that to our Indian friends about the uneven and unfair treatment of the two mobs. Indians saw nothing wrong with that.

stuka pai,

A pathan never accepts the end....he likes the middle. SO this is the begining of the middle game now!

HP Pai: I just chanced upon the same article. This is the beginning of the end game.

HP #152,
This was bound to happen. The bellicose statement coming from Indian government, Indian press, and even some Bollywood stars, has really given some serious bowel movements to our peerless fearless. LOL

Scared of the prospect of losing on two fronts, they are eager to be rid of the more difficult one - fighting Pathans in FATA. They would rather face Sardarjis across a fertile farm.

Again, the terrorists win.

#147 Posted by Essensaur on November 30, 2008 1:18:25 pm

{"I would appreciate if someone would find time to write about arguments for and against Khilafat...I'd imagine that if Khilafat were to be established, there would be a single person who would be the authority representing the Ummah across national boundaries, who would have the final say in the event of disputes regarding Islam and the rest of the world, and indeed the non-Muslim world would have one person to hold accountable for the good or bad actions taken in the name of Islam. Would that not be better than having hoards of Mullahs issuing all kinds of fatwas at will, and confusing the heck of the Muslims and non-Muslims alike?"}

Essensaur,
You bring up an excellent point about the Khilafat or Caliphate as a potential clearing house for Islamic matters. That is exactly the reason why the leaders in Medina came up with the concept. Unfortunately, being Muslims, we ended up with multiple Caliphates after long drawn-out battles for supremacy of one group over another. The last one, the Ottomans, carried the title and power for four hundred years, only to have it ended after their disastrous defeat in WWI.

Yes, such an office could be resurrected. But again, how do you convince the Soodis, the Egyptians, and some of the well-off absolute monarchies like Kuwait, UAE, and Oman to be subjected to a superior body? Perhaps others could discuss in more detail. Good thought on your part, though.

Pakistan army makes Fight against the criminals in FATA the first victim of the Mumbai dog and pony show.
The criminals are being declared patriots now... Well Pakistanis forget India we need to turn our guns agains the Pak army now.
Indians show your support now.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18709
ISLAMABAD: All main militant groups fighting in Fata, from South Waziristan to Bajaur and from Mohmand to the Khyber Agency, have contacted the government through different sources after the Mumbai bombings and have offered a ceasefire if the Pakistan Army also stops its operations.

And as a positive sign that this ceasefire offer may be accepted, the Pakistan Army has, as a first step, declared before the media some notorious militant commanders, including Baitullah Mehsud and Maulvi Fazlullah, as “patriotic� Pakistanis.

These two militant commanders are fighting the Army for the last four years and have invariably been accused of terrorism against Pakistan but the aftermath of the Mumbai carnage has suddenly turned terrorists into patriots.

A top security official told a group of senior journalists on Saturday: “We have no big issues with the militants in Fata. We have only some misunderstandings with Baitullah Mehsud and Fazlullah. These misunderstandings could be removed through dialogue.�

The Indian allegations against Pakistan have suddenly forced the military establishment in Pakistan to finally accept that they are not fighting an American war inside the Pakistani territory.

I must confess that I am little perturbed but I am not surprised at the Bombay incident. It was written on the wall for the longest time and Hindus had it comming. These things do not happen in vaccum; but they certainly follow natures laws of cause and effect. People have really short memory. Just in the August of this month hundereds of thousands of Kashmiris set out to march to Pakistani border to remind world and their Hindu occupiers their international commitment towards Kashmir's democratic right to self-determine. How they were treated?? Hundereds of them were shot by machine guns by the occupying hindu army. Had at that a single Hindu raised the voice against his own government "why are you massacring my fellow citizens?" the Bombay tragedy could have been averted. It is cause and effect my friends - cause and effect.

I have some random thoughts on this incident:

1. Americans have fukked up not only their own country but rest of the mankind as well. This collosal fukk up is unprecedented in the recorded history. The main cause of their collpase is their refusal and arrogance to grow out of 18th century colonialism menatlity. Every country that partenerd with them to erect the American empire has thorouhjly been fukked up. It is as simple as 2+2, that GWOT is wrong; it has consequences for everyone on the planet and here they are.

2. Fact # 2 is that Americans in their long history of "interventions" have chosen to fukk up with the wrong kind of people this time. It is another thing to contain Palestinians into two concentration camps called Gaza Strip and West Bank and declaring victory but dealing with 1 billion of the rest is totally another issue. Isn'nt it obvious that Muslims have refused to become third class citizens of the world. What world needs today is rule of law which is equal for all citizen nations. The consequences of privilged veto class are now here for all of us to suffer.

3. So in short Americans have failed on all fronts - political, economical, military, and in leadership. It is time that countries like Hindustan re-evaluate their position towards their participation in building American Empire at the cost of 1 billion Muslims.

4. Pakistan must re-evaluate its position too. If Pakistan can get 5 billion dollars from IMF to get through this crisis then why would it need American "help". If Americans are borrowing money from China (at interest) and giving it to us (with added interest) then why not borrow directly from China??

Kaal Bhayya, Pardesi, and others:

That was very shameful of you guys to take dear little Dawa's passionate affection for Medina and turn it into some universal raison d'etre for Islamic extremism. Her innocent comment about a grain of Medina being more precious than her life was just an expression of utmost loyalty very similar to what people say about the US, to die for God and Country in the case of the Brits, the Mudderland in Deutschland, and patriotic songs sung by Lata and others about becoming "Shaheed" for India.

By the way, "Shaheed" is most definitely an Arabic term, meaning giving witness to the fact that there is "No God but Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet." Do you think it's normal for Indian reporters to constantly use that hated Arabic word for Indian commandos and police who died bravely while fighting the cursed terrorist bastards?

#148 BJ2,
Coomar Bhayya,
I may not be a typical Mussulman, but why do you portray yourself as the composite Bihari?
By the way, were you able to remove the bolt that was welded to your cranial fortress to keep it safe from logical infusions? :)

Re: # 145

Salim miaN, in the wildest of my dreams I would never think of equating you with a typical Mussalmaan who has to live in a typical Muslim country and has to live among typical Mussalman folks and who is typically not highly educated and who is not typically found interacting on this site and who has to toil like a typical Mussalmaan who is working hard to feed a typical Mussalmaan family and who, in order to accomplish that feat, depends on the good-wishes of his typical Mussalman neighbors and typical Mussalmaan community to protect and preserve his typical Mussalmaan ass and who is accordingly not at liberty to make independent decisions even though in his heart he may know very well what is right and what is not.

Salim miaN, EVERYONE here knows that you are highly atypical!

I would appreciate if someone would find time to write about arguments for and against Khilafat.

I'd imagine that if Khilafat were to be established, there would be a single person who would be the authority representing the Ummah across national boundaries, who would have the final say in the event of disputes regarding Islam and the rest of the world, and indeed the non-Muslim world would have one person to hold accountable for the good or bad actions taken in the name of Islam. Would that not be better than having hoards of Mullahs issuing all kinds of fatwas at will, and confusing the heck of the Muslims and non-Muslims alike?

I realize I am making it sound simple, but the intent is to seek inputs on the complexities of the issues involved.

Thanks ... E

#53 Posted by Eklavya on November 29, 2008 3:03:36 am
{"Good, we are ballat karis and we will ballat kar saad ullah and all other ullahs."}

Kaal Bhayya,
As long as you are in Ullah Ballat Kar mode, will you remember not to forget Nasirullah please? Nasir Loola BuRBuR.

BJ2 #65 {"The problem is, there are strong penalties associated with apostasy in Islam. I think that is the reason the vast majority keeps its mouth shut (not out of any sympathy for the bad people). "}

BJ,
Good intent, wrong conclusion. No, most Muslims, including myself, do question extremism and are very vocal about our disagreement with the radicals. The real reason is that when the right-wing BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS/MNS goons or the anti-Turkish Chetnicks or blood-thirsty Crusaders, or land-grabbing Zionist settlers kill, rape, mutilate, and burn us THEY DON'T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN RADICAL MUSLIMS AND MODERATE ONES. So why should we stir the pot, alienate a small minority of our own people, when all of know that our enemies will never be satisfied until they annhilate us all.

By the way, in the US (and for that matter in Turkey) I can stop being a Muslim, convert to any religion, including dung beetle worship, and no harm will come to me. So, that should blow your theory. Yes, my ancestors converted from Hinduism to Islam and I can revert at any time - I choose not to do so and that is my own will. Comprende, amigo?

#39 Posted by Eklavya on November 29, 2008 2:50:43 am

{"By the way, we love balat kar. Our policy is balat kar all Muslim women.

As, all you Pakistanis know, we do with every woman in Kashmir.

That's the way we are. Else we woould have been Pakistanis."}

NA KAR, KAAL BHAYYA, NA KAR!
You are revealing too much about yourself that we have not seen before. :(

#32 Posted by masanamuthu on November 29, 2008 2:43:54 am
{"religions are evil and Islam leads the pack by huge margins. Muslims need not convert to Hinduism, rather convert to humanism, that means being good human beings rather than being good Muslims."}

Muthu Mian,
Unfortunately, you are right here. I keep saying to my fellow Muslims that Islam is a failure until non-Muslims start banging on our doors clamoring to be let in. :) They just don't listen to me.

#28 Posted by dawa-i-dil on November 29, 2008 2:39:15 am

{"Sorry Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. There are 56 independence movements going on in india. Are they all muslims !

Fact is that RSS/RAW like Col. Prohot as countered by late ATF head was shot dead specifically as he was bringing BJP and Hindutava inner connections !

For God sake, allow muslims of india to live in peace , 60 years have passed and still u burn them alive ballat kaar thier lil girls and then make this terrorist Moodi again CM Gujrat

Thanks Allah we Pakistanis in 60 years never have such riots"}

Dawa,
In a few brief sentences you have brilliantly summarized much that is wrong in the way Muslims are treated in India. This clearly negates the much-chanted mantra that Muslims are equal citizens of a secular democracy. Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia have sent their human-rights violating criminals to De Hague - Indians "elect" theirs to high offices such as Chief Ministers, Mayors, etc..

Shoaib #23 {"The ML did not even have a govt in the Punjab (a unionist govt) and NWFP (Congress govt) till a few years before 1947. Most of the cadre of the ML was drawn from UP. Pak's first PM was from UP. (Hence the importance given to Urdu in the new nation)

Why was the ML weak in Punjab? Because there was no safety issue at all for the Muslims. They anyways outnumbered the Hindus(which in turn led to horrible massacres in Lahore). If anybody needed a Pakistan it was the Muslims who lived in minority provinces like UP and Delhi. But they were left in the lurch as Jinnah had gotten his fiefdom."}

Shoaib,
That is a very broad, drive-by history of partition narrated from an Indian perspective. Things were much more complicated than the way you presented them. Maybe later we can discuss at length the reasons and fallacies of the partition.

By the way, Pakistan's first PM Liaquat Ali Khan was from Karnal - which was in undivided Punjab and now, I believe, in Haryana.

Shoaib #14 {"For example who is stopping us from bringing women into our Masjids? Who? Why don’t we?

Why do we have a civil code that makes polygamy legal? Why don’t we agitate for that instead of wasting our energies over some cartoon drawn in Europe?"}

Shoaib,
Once again, very important observations. Women can visit mosques in US, polygamy is banned in Turkey - so go ahead and tell that rascal, Imam Bukhari, that the world doesn't come to an end if Muslims step up to mediocrity.

Mullahs want to keep us backward so they will not lose the last ounces of power they hold on our people.

{"The rule for Muslims all over the world appears to be that they will lag behind every other community in societies that they do not dominate politically. The causes of Muslim inability to compete with others must lie largely within Muslims themselves."}

Aleph,
Good points - cruelly stated, but true. It appears that many capable Muslims, not afraid to compete, tend to gravitate to the US where it's not an advantage, in fact it's more like a handicap, to be Muslim.

And when Muslims attain political domination, it is the beginning of the rapid end of our success as human beings. Islam is best suited as a grass roots philosophy, unencumbered with the tag of power.

bulleya #122

{{i meet more indian christians in senior IT positions than indian muslims........even though christians in india are a fraction of muslims.....}}

Christians in India do not have the attitude that the world or India owes them something, and do not believe that the Indian system is biased against them or anyone else. They are quite unlike Muslims in this regard. They tend to be somewhat overrepresented wherever selection based on individual merit is the rule.

The rule for Muslims all over the world appears to be that they will lag behind every other community in societies that they do not dominate politically. The causes of Muslim inability to compete with others must lie largely within Muslims themselves.

#8 Regards {"Every morning at 5AM, students, night shift workers, sick and in short who are trying to sleep are woken up by Azaan. Hindus have also taken the cue, political assertiveness is put through loud speakers for Kirtans, Bhajans..."}

Regards,
You have my sympathy and support. It's amazing how these electronic muezzins learn to behave themselves in the US and other western countries. I spent many a sleepness night in Karachi during Ramadan when numerous mosques kept up the annoying loudspeakers - sometimes in competition with each other. The resultant noise was totally incomprehensible and was definitely another form of terrorism. May all these polluters be silenced - and I say that as a religious person.

hamdim and romair, as in the feritility debate, the argument here has to be tightened (it may or may not be true, though):

(Hamidm's) argument is:

Within any non-Muslim country with signficiant Muslim populations, Muslims will generally tend to lag behind most others.

The best Muslim countries will generally tend to lag behind the best non-Muslim countries.

and so on.

(again, this is a hypothesis that IMO hamdim wanted to put forward, and I expect him to thank me for it.) :)

hamidm mian #: ".......... now THINK and you will get the answer to your silly question as to why muslims are not doing well anywhere ......"

....they seem to be doing alright in usa.....i heard some are, now, relatively high paid powerpoint pushers in the us auto industry (then again, your theory may be true, and they may have been the ones who brought the auto industry down).....

having said that, it is, surprising, how much one learns when one travels......i suggest you see the world outside dearborn, sometime.......

.....i used to think the biggest example proving your theory was not what you have mentioned....but the fact that christian arabs are everywhere in the usa - from nader to ford to yasmine bleeth to sanunu to spencer abraham - but muslim arabs are nowhere.....

however, then i travelled.....

keep an eye on three places - turkey, malaysia and the 6 states in the gulf - (and to a smaller extent on iran and indonesia)......

turkey is, now, my favorite place to visit in europe.....malaysia can go toe-to-toe with any country.....

however, it is the gcc which has totally turned my definition of the illiterate bedioun on its head.....they are getting a common currency, a common reserve bank, a common energy grid etc......once this happens, everyone will be lining up to them for funds.....oh wait that is already happened, both bush and brown are in front of them with begging bowls.......

and they are building/buying the most high-tech and biggest buildings, banks, beaches, malls and even museums.....

....with their 100 years of oil reserves, they are going to be quite a force......

the rest of the muslm world.......well they can always migrate to michigan and push powerpoints......

#6 Posted by shoaib_daniyal on November 28, 2008 10:21:03 pm
{"The good people at Chowk have made some changes which I feel are very important to the whole article.

I have written to them about it. However since my permission was not taken before these changes were put into place I am taking the liberty of putting down my original points here"}

Shoaib,
Very logical points presented with dexterity to emphasize your viewpoints - I agree with most of your comments.

What is disturbing though is your allegation that Chowk officials unilaterally modified your article and did not respond to your attempts to have the matter resolved. You did the right thing by posting the significant changes here for all to see.

I experienced the same unjustified censorship when my last article was published - and, frankly, I haven't got the enthusiasm or the passion to write another one. I have had numerous ideas but the prospect of my work being altered for some inexplicable agenda bothers me.

Good for you in exposing this nonsense. Keep writing and let's hope one day you won't have to be Daniel just to rent an apartment. If it's any comfort to you, thanks to the misdeeds of Al Kayda, many Muslims in American have become Shan, Joseph, Cameron, and Daniel.

shankar #: "Maybe this is the best opportunity that India & Pakistan have got to genuinely cooperate, because the enemy is a common one."

...there is a strange thing happening.....i have noticed it on this site also.....ever since the demise of w bush, the one trump card that was playable has been played....

whether one supports it or opposes it, one has to agree that it failed......this was the card of massive threatening force to exterminate anything one disagreed with.....

the general consensus prior to this was that the more powerful state could use force, if it wanted to, to crush a movement (be it terroristic or genuine)....

everyone thought it would work......but it didn't.....

now even the more powerful nations have realized that the only way to control terror is, first, not to create a situation where it exists......and then to ensure that countries do not fail to a point where they end up as terrorist havens....

i.e. even if you hate someone....bombing them will do no good......you have to build them up, constructively.....solve their problems, and jointly isolate terror......

this, i think, will now force india and pakistan to work together.....even if they don't want to.....pakistan has its hands full with terror.....it is everywhere....east, west, north, south.......some of it is forced upon pakistan.....some of it is a result of its own policies for harboring organizations, which had terrorist tendencies.......

this terror, in pakistan, is now out of control.....if the pakistan govt. cannot do anything to control it, then rest assured, the indian govt. has no chance to control it.....

so, now, it is, slowly becoming clear to pakistan that instead of dominating and controlling and destabilizing afghanistan, it has to build it up.....otherwise pakistan will destabilize......similarly, it is becoming clear to india that instead of destabilizing or remaining in confrontation with a smaller pakistan (even for the right reasons), it has to stabilize it and build it up, otherwise everything will spill into india......

this failure of hamid bush (sorry, i meant w bush) has, now, left no option but to review tactics for fighting terror.....

i am still standing by my hunch that this terrorist attack in india, had an al-qaeda link, plus some link to some organization in pakistan, plus link to a local organization in india......

as strange as it may sound, the best scenario for india would be for it to be only local.....if it is int'l than india is, now, also in the int'l war that pakistan is caught up in......

pakistan, daily finds chechnyans, saudis, uzbeks, etc. operating in pakistan......the govts. of these countries cannot do much about these elements.....if indians find a rogue pakistani in this group, it will be the same situation.......the best (and probably only option) for india would be to work with pakistan, not in opposition to it.......

It takes no leap of imagination to see right through the rationalizations of most of the interacters'(at least on this board) opinion and trace them to their emotional roots.
Emotions popularly provide an instinctual moral compass as well as "valid" evidence for judgement.It so happens that certain notions become the inevitable category of human mind through which other things are seen.Most of these notions are based on the 'emotive meaning' or the social or intellectual climate they represent.

That is precisely the reason why majority of Non-technical and non-philosophical minds always tend to construct their 'view of reality' on the basis of some sort of ethical concepts, for these 'ethical concepts' satisfy their social and 'intellectual prejudices.

This ethical reductionism sees every view of reality and ideology on the basis of the emotive meanings of these ethical notions which almost become the inevitable categories of their intellectual discourse.

For example, if certain ideology(in a lose sense) accomodate and cherishes all 'moral principles' they have already accepted as an 'intellectual dogma' than not only would they grap it with both hands but also consider it a technically and "objectively"valid ideological system.

Contrary to the ordinary thinking, no philosophy or ideology ,for that matter, constructs itself on ethical notions,in fact ethical notions have only "secondary"or 'derivated' significance in these systems of thought.

This is true of all the great religions,philosophies,ideologies and even scientific theories of the world.But most followers and critics of these systems and views of reality follow or deny them on ethical basis and prove one to be superior or inferior to other on the basis of the emotive meanings of the prevailing ethical concepts in their society or intellectual milieu.

After the renaissance movement and the devolpoment of secularism and Democracy as the socio-political doctrine,notions like,"freedom" and "peace" became almost a methodology to judge the "validity" of any ideological and philosophical systems.

Liberals hold that freedom is a fundamental value, and that the just state ensures freedom for citizens.It holds that coercive state power is justified to the extent necessary to protect the right to freedom from coercive interference.If we closely look into this libertarian view we will see a certain description of these notions are emotively propagated with the perspective of the pragmatic approach of libertarian doctrine.

Democracy initself has no view of reality of its own.It is an anti-systematic tendency when it comes to its philosophical grounds. It denconstruct every ideology and philosophical systematic into parts and judge it with rhtorics and its pragmatic view.Democracy or the libertarian view has all the paradoxes in the ultimate analysis which we see in any anti-systematic tendency.

Even Marxism which seems to stand firmly behind all these "values" doesn't have the ethical system of its own.In fact Marxism is against constructing any moral and ethical theory.Ethics in Marxism has only derivative significance in the large of scheme of Marxian outlook of reality.But superficial minds as always propgate for and against it on ethical grounds.

Many religions which couldn't which didn't have the ability to record its response to the contemporary intellectual movements and hid themselves behind the reform movements.These religions picked and chose the similar notions from their texts and made them look accomodative to the libertarian view.Ever wondered why Hindus and Christians or for that matter Orientalists criticise Islam and muslims on the basis of these notions instead of their own religion??

But it is one of the charachteristic of Islamic religion that It has always shown a living awarness of all contemporary intellectual issues. Islamic being an all-inclusive view reality deals not only with man's social activity but also with the existential discourse of the ultimate reality. The problem arises when such a doctrine is judged on abstract "moral" grounds based on the preconcieved notions of the indvidual or a group or the moralities having derivative value in a certain ideological or philosophical system.


This Ethical interpretation of Islam leads to some ridiculous conclusion from a serious intellectual standpoint.You don't have to be Einstien to see this tendency prevailing both in Muslims and Non-muslim alike with a same zeal.

For example, Islam's validity and its propositions dealing with existential discourse are judged on the basis of the outcome of its being peacfull or violent doctrine in the social realm.The Opertaional value of any system cannot,in any way, detrermines the validity of any doctrine.Nor can it become the methdology to judge other views of reality.

More later.

Re: # 122

captain cluless,

... let me try to help you

... you asked: "and, for whatever reasons, i am afraid, they are not doing well in india....i meet more indian christians in senior IT positions than indian muslims........even though christians in india are a fraction of muslims....."


..... okay, fair enough .... bit think about this too: "and, for whatever reasons, i am afraid, they are not doing well in france....i meet more hungarian christians who are the president of france than muslim clerks ........even though hungarians in france are a fraction of muslims......"

.......... now THINK and you will get the answer to your silly question as to why muslims are not doing well anywhere ...... let me give you a hint - the answer starts with the letter 'i' ...

I really have no need for sanctimonious lectures from individuals who couch their own bigotry with bogus "history" provided by bogus "historians" like Yasser miaN on worthless web-sites like this one. So, feel free to go screw yourself. Thank you!

Often times, I have found that people resort to unprovoked abuse thinking that somehow it would replace cogent arguments. I asked you to read about Khilafat movement because you said it was around 1910 or so. :-)

Anyways, this is an unrelated issue for this topic. Feel free to abuse further.

oho, these are upsetting times, and my brother beej is upset as well!

Beej, masana is simply saying that Gandhi aligned himself with forces that were much more evil (in Masana's view) than the British were, themselves.

You may disagree, but for Masana and many others, it is hard to understand Gandhi's actions. My personal resolution of this odd conundrum is that Gandhi simply did not know about people and their religions, and went in for an 'alliance' simply on 'good faith' as even today, in the age of so much information, so many of us continue to do.


(I think Gandhi was a phemonenally progressive person, yet a traditionalist to the core. He simply believed all others who cared for their religion were just like him. I have a feeling Gandhi even thought of Deobandis as like himself. Today, looking back, one can eithier argue that deobandis and Gandhi were indeed the same, or that Gandhi simply was not familiar with their huge differences.)

So, please don't get upset. Masan knows his history (far better than I and many others ever will) and seems to respect Gandhi just like you and most others do.

Cheers.

Re: # 117

Shankar miaN, you need to be careful when you get your answers from Romair miaN on citizenship information. There are people here who are very cynical (perhaps too cynical)!

Here is the real stuff – from the horse’s own mouth – the Government of Pakistan website. (www.pakistan.gov.pk/divisions/ContentInfo.jsp?DivID=23&cPath=221_227&Co ntentID=754)

Since you show an interest in becoming a Pakistani citizen, here are the categories under which you are eligible. I list those along with (within parentheses) how you could qualify for each.

These are the headings under which Indians can migrate to Pakistan:

(A) Old parents of Pak nationals who are residing in India. (You may have some difficulty with this because, even if we assume the unlikely scenario that you HAVE sired a Pakistani or two, you may not qualify since you don’t live in India. (Claiming that your heart is still in India will not work with those khuRRaat Pakistani Immigration agents!))

(B) Commonwealth citizens who transfer Rs 5 million worth of foreign exchange. (I realize that the amount is probably pocket change to you – but it may be difficult to convince GWB or BOb to join the British Commonwealth!)

(C) The nationals of Countries other than Commonwealth after they have resided in Pakistan for a period of five years under the Naturalization Act,1926. (The timeframe involved creates obvious difficulties – especially if you were not yet born at the time – and it also represents a "catch-22" situation – you can not live there till they let you in and you won't be eligible to apply till you live there!)

(D) Foreign ladies married to Pakistani nationals (All you would need would be an eligible Pakistani man (i.e., with no more than three wives) and a sex change operation!)

(E) Minor children (below 21 years of age) of Pak ladies married to foreigners. (More difficulties associated with the time frame!)

(F) Children born to Pakistani mother and foreign national father after 18.04.2000 are to be treated automatically as citizens of Pakistan. (I would not dare to imply anything regarding the applicability of this category – but if does apply, there is no need to apply!)

Re: # 120

Muthu miaN, thanks to Yasser, I have heard more than an earful on the Khilafat movement and I have done my share of independent readings on the pre-independence politics. I stand by my earlier assertion that Gandhiji was motivated by (probably misguided) goodwill when he allied himself with that movement. I really have no need for sanctimonious lectures from individuals who couch their own bigotry with bogus "history" provided by bogus "historians" like Yasser miaN on worthless web-sites like this one. So, feel free to go screw yourself. Thank you!

Umair, #122
Thank you

All this chest thumping notwithstanding, the GoI has not blamed GoP for having a hand in this. Since Americans, British & Israeli citizens were killed, all those nations are sending their investigators to monitor the Indian investigation. So, I'm hoping that India wont get away by distorting or twisting the truth.

Maybe this is the best opportunity that India & Pakistan have got to genuinely cooperate, because the enemy is a common one.

Its sad..what you say about Indian muslims..& its true.

If a nation's true character shows through in the moments of tragedy, then its rather disappointing to observe that through these events in Bombay, majority of hindoos of chowk (and other forums) came out looking like monkey's ass.

In stark contrast to pakis behavior during similar tragedies in pakistan, there were no lofty words, no idealism, no uplifting talk, no high-mindedness from hindoos. Rather, it was just plain impotent rage, vulgarity and shallowness from little people of various castes. Even dullahbhatti, a stateless sikh, was found using raw vulgarity towards any paki who happened to be on chowk that day. Couple of lowest caste hindoos thumped their little chests about dire consequences for muslims. But 5 years of coding cannot erase 5000 years of DNA markers. They looked rather ridiculous in their online bravado.

A couple of interactors rose above the rest. Subroto's thread about "celebrating Bombay" was one such exception. that showed his high-mindedness. But for the most part, hindoos made it amply clear why they are stuck in the rut of castes and why their thoughts would never rise above their short heights. And this is exactly why legions of civilizers through the history have taken it upon themselves to bring enlightenment to India, and inshallah will continue to do so.

If tragedies show the true color of a people, then Bombay bared the petty soul of hindoos - at least of the ones using internet.

Well Bulleya they are now claiming that the guy is from Faridkot in Azad Kashmir.... This is a moving target...

there are two tiny faridkots in pakistan.....tiny villages - 100 houses or so......maybe somewhat larger....but tiny.....

the one indians are refering to, close to multan, does not speak punjabi.....it speaks sariaki......or something in between saraiki-punjabi.....

the audio from ndtv, of a terrorist speaking hindi, using hindi words (pariwar etc.) and hindi accents (julam etc.) had, somewhat, of a punjabi accent....though not totally punjabi......it, certainly wasn't a saraiki accent....

the punjabi accent could be from pakistan punjab or indian punjab......or it could be some other local accent of india.....it did not sound like a chaste pure urdu accent - the kind that was spoken in delhi and lucknow......nor was it slang urdu that is spoken in pakistan......

the guy was either an indian hindi speaker.....if he was pakistani, then he was not from saraiki area.....perhaps more around central pakistani punjab.....who, apparently, was very well trained in hindi accent (i don't know any urdu or punjabi speaker in pakistan who can do such a good hindi accent).......either he was indian or he practiced a lot of hindi......

shankar #: "Out of curiosity, is an Indian muslim able to migrate to Pakistan today, if he/she wants to?"

good to see some sanity in this theatre of revengeful emotional mayhem.......trust me, some day everyone will realize that what you (and i, and a tiny minority of others) have been saying, makes sense......quite a few people are already starting to come around, after having exhuasted all doors of violence.....

...anyone can migrate to pakistan....much like anyone can migrate to india or usa....

i am now going in and out of india and am working regularly with indian companies.....i have taken joint indian-pakistani teams on projects in both countries....which include indian muslims.....

indian muslims can migrate to pakistan......quite a few indian girls get married to their relative in pakistan, and migrate.....and live, primarily, in karachi....everyone i have met in karachi, has some relatives in india......

however, i don't think most indian muslims will migrate to pakistan......for the simple reason that things in pakistan aren't all that great either...........it would be much better for them to migrate to usa, uk, dubai etc.....pakisatni muslims are, themselves, migarting to these places......why not go straight there from india.....

they will get far more security, and being part of the majority, will not live in political fear......they will be able to actually discriminate against other minorities, if they want......

however, the trip will not be able to compensate them economically.....the average pakistani muslim is quite a bit better off than the average indian muslim (though, now, less better off than the average indian hindu).....however, the difference isn't enough for someone to leave everything in india and take the risk of starting all over in pakistan......

also, pakistan will only want indians who can contribute ecnomically to pakistan....and those indian muslims (doctors, engineers etc.) are fine in india......

the people that i feel for the most in this whole india pakistani historical situation are indian muslims.....indian hindus will be fine.......pakistani muslims will be fine (provided the country holds up economically)....ditto for bangladeshi muslims....even pakistani hindus will be fine (provided economy is ok), since there are too few of them to be considered a threat...

...indian muslims, i am afriad are stuck.....they were, unfairly left on their own by jinnah when pakistan was created....the well-off muslims of their region left for pakistan, thereby leaving them vulnerable.......they lost whatever clout they would have had, had muslims been 33% of a joint india......

now, they are asked to ditch their loyalty to islam and prove their loyalty to india......which in the current indo-pak-(bangladesh) and world situation can be a contradiction.....

i regularly work with senior successful indian IT people....some of the few, who are muslims, have confided their fear, openly, to me......i can see their defensiveness every time something like this happen (even though they have nothing to do with it)......

while pakistanis may be on edge, if this turns out to be a pakistani operation, as they don't want a war with india....indian muslims must be on an even thinner edge, if this turns out to be an indian muslim operation.....pakistanis will be able to defend themselves in case of a war.....who will defend the indian muslims (other than arundhati roy and mahesh bhatt).......

and, for whatever reasons, i am afraid, they are not doing well in india....i meet more indian christians in senior IT positions than indian muslims........even though christians in india are a fraction of muslims......

i still argue that the best situation for everyone in south asia....specifically for indian muslims......is open borders, a joint ecnonomic union, like europe......where nationalism gets diluted as does ideology, and city and local loyalties take precedence......this requires some geographical issues (like kashmir) to be resolved......

overbearing nationalists exist, primarily on the indian side, and overbearing ideologue exist primarily on the pakistani side (though now they are emerging on the indian side)......since pakistan is not doing too well now, the overbearing nationalists on the pakistani side has died down (or has migrated to michigan)......this dying down is a good thing.......

anyways, there are two groups, i am afraid, in south asia, for whom i see a tough future - indian muslims and pakistani ahmedis....

Dawa, I have on TV, and family members heard it first hand. They are not Urdu speakers.

BJ,

Muthu miaN, you have been listening too much to that Yasser. Please keep in mind that support to the khilafat movement was in 1910 or so -- and whether or not it turned out to have been a mistake, through it Gandhiji was at the time trying to build bridges between Hindus and Muslims to agitate against the British together -- unlike some other leaders who were trying to drive wedges between communities.


I thought of passing this one so as not to spoil this board with stuff about Gandhi. Gandhiji no doubt is a great man, but the actions he took like the stupid Khilafat movement did more harm in the long run than good. I think you should read something about Khilafat movement (which BTW was in the 1920s) before we can have meaningful discussion in some other board. I try to listen to many different points of view before reaching a conclusion. I suggest you do the same.

Infact anyone who have heard terrorists, they are speaking Karari Urdu means that of Delhi/Lucknow/Hyderabad/Aurangabad/Bhopal which includes mostly like Arai Bhaiyya , Kahai ko Bolta Rai , Piyarai, Dayya rai Dayya

Farid Kot

The indian media/officals are so much blind in blamming Pakistan that they not even know Punjabi accent belongs to some large area/city or belt instead of some poor village which most of the people never heard before.

Multan,Bahawalnagar,Bahawalpur,Kahnewal,Dera Ghazi khan is known as Sariki belt and thier accent as Saraiki Punjabi, a very sweet accent of Punjabi.

So Farid Kot being in this belt have if any accent than its Saraiki , Can ever accent be related to any unknown village.In my whole life never heard of any Farid Koti Punjabi !

Out of curiosity, is an Indian muslim able to migrate to Pakistan today, if he/she wants to?

If I'm an Indian Muslim & I'm disillusioned with my parents' decision not to go over to Pakistan at the time of partition, could I exercise that right today?

I'm curious to know just how many disillusioned & discriminated Indian Muslims want to migrate to Pakistan, where they feel they have more freedom & less discrimination?

My previous post got truncated for some reason, here is the original :)

Shoaib, thanks for an honest and heartwarming article.

I have been following the interacts on the other thread about the Mumbai attack, and have been dismayed by the quality of the discussion; it reveals the narrow-minded, stagnant and biased thinking that so many of us in the sub-continent have got used to.

In contrast, the interacts on this thread have been of a distinctly better quality (some notable exceptions notwithstanding), and I hope that discussions on Chowk gravitate in this direction rather than the other.

Every section in society (be it Indians/pakistanis/hindus/muslims) has its own set of problems, and I believe these can be surmounted by the right initiative, leadership (that can deal with problems head-on and not beat around the bush), mutual understanding and collaboration. It is sickening to read posts that deliberately spew venom on one particular section; we can do without sweeping generalizations such as these, at least on Chowk:
(a) horrible hindus, who are hell bent on persecuting muslims
(b) evil muslims, who fall in one of two categories: terrorists and terror-supporters.

And then there are the awfully boring posts that dig out select stuff from the Koran or Hindu scriptures, or those amazingly insightful articles from here and there, in an attempt to prove a point (which would again be one of these generalizations).

At this perilous time in our nations' histories, I believe each of us (especially if you are a parent) has a great responsibity in teaching one's children the right things and love/respect for humanity (which I believe are common to all religions) and not filling their minds with the garbage that threatens us today. 18-year olds that kill innocents and blow themselves up because they have been promised heaven by doing so, should have known better than to fall into the trap. So should the goondas that went around damaging churches in Orissa recently. Much of the blame for this should fall on their parents, elders, caretakers and advisors.

I hope, God willing, that I will fulfill at least this responsibility of mine.

evil muslims, who fall in one of two categories: terrorists and terror-supporters.

And then there are the awfully boring posts that dig out select stuff from the Koran or Hindu scriptures, or those amazingly insightful articles from here and there, in an attempt to prove a point (which would again be one of these generalizations).

At this perilous time in our nations' histories, I believe each of us (especially if you are a parent) has a great responsibity in teaching one's children the right things and love/respect for humanity (which I believe are common to all religions) and not filling their minds with the garbage that threatens us today. 18-year olds that kill innocents and blow themselves up because they have been promised heaven by doing so, should have known better than to fall into the trap. So should the goondas that went around damaging churches in Orissa recently. Much of the blame for this should fall on their parents, elders, caretakers and advisors.

I hope, God willing, that I will fulfill at least this responsibility of mine.

Bheenga, are you insulting Islam?

[[That’s not to say that India is perfect. To get a house in Gurgaon I had to lie about my religion. I claimed I was Christian, playing up the similarity between ‘Daniel’ and ‘Daniyal’. People would not let out their house to a person named Shoaib Mohammed Daniyal.
But for that will you kill 130 people. For that will you hold hundreds more hostage? For that will you destroy a city?]]

If you were a Hindu, you would have been labeled dhimmi and article would have a tag dhimmitude.

Since you are a muslim, it is reverse dhimmitude... and you are a dhimmi.

Apply for memebership here.
http://www.dhimmitude.org/

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide - this idiot is concerned about the challenge of Hindutva. Hey dumbass, is Pakistan a basketcase because of Hindutva groups as well? Maybe it was RSS guys killing Muslims in Iraq?

This RR of Borivilli Express is on the other board as well. Every human development indicator on hich Muslims lag behind in India is also where they lag behind in the UK relative to other minorities as well.

All Asian minorities moves to the UK AROUND THE SAME TIME. All are immigrants admittd to the same country, same socio-economic opportunity. Yet, the Paki Muslim is at the bottom of every indicator on their social development index. The Indian Muslim is ahead only of the Paki Muslim whereas the Hindus and Skhs compete with Goras. Why? Because the Muslim across the world is pretty much a loser stuck in a loser's victim mentality. The Muslim will keep his woman at home and his children will be uneducated louts. The oddd Muslim who does well will e considered a sell out / Uncle Tom. The Muslim in South Asia will carry on abou the glory of the damn Mughals but will not shift his arse to do some intellectual discovery, some economical empowerment. Instead, much easier to be consumed with envy and talk about discrimination.

The limit was listening to Farzana Versey bitching about Premji not contributing to Urdu Medium. Classic...A Gujju Muslim blming a Kannadiga Muslim for not contributing to a North Indian language.

Re: # 109

Yes, Indian Mussalmans are a minority. Yes, Indian Mussalmans lag behind economically.

Guess what – in virtually every country of the world, minorities lag behind – including in the USA. So, what is your point?!

And yes, there have been atrocities like in Gujarat in 2002. (And yes, the frequency of atrocities has been rising over the time frame that the ISI has been pumping in Jihadis in Kashmir and elsewhere in India and yes, there IS a connection.) Guess what, there have also been atrocities with every group – large or small, and there is nothing special about being a Mussalman which automatically prevents atrocities!

But let us also compare with Islamic countries like Pakistan.

There are NO Muslim countries where minority religions are even treated at par with Islam. Period.

Pakistanis are citizens of a country which has literally killed off its own minorities. What kind of rights are those?! The world would be so impressed with the “right to life� that you provide to your own minorities!

Pakistanis are citizens of a country which gives birth to the Taliban. Guess what – the Taliban are such champions of human rights that they chop off hands! You recognized that regime and you became their champions! Perhaps Pakistanis should be given recognition and rewards for leading the fight against “cruel and unusual� punishment!

Pakistanis gave birth to Taliban which, guess what – are such champions of women’s rights that they shoot them in sports stadiums! Perhaps Pakistanis should be given recognition and rewards for their role in promoting women’s rights – a preview of Jinnah’s Pakistan (yet to arrive but just around the corner, according to Yasser miaN!)!

Oh what a great champion of women’s rights?! Don’t believe me – why, ask Mukhtaran mai!!

Listen, Pakistanis!

YOU are in no position to lecture Indians on minority rights. The fact is – YOU are the worst of the lot of hypocrites on such issues!!

What Hindustani Mussalmaans are telling you and other like you is – stay off their case.

They are saying so not because they do not suffer as a minority – but they are saying so because they know your pathetic little game and they know what it has done for you and they want no part of YOUR fate!

What part of “No, thank you!� don't you understand?!!

TIME
India's Muslims in Crisis
By Aryn Baker Thursday, Nov. 27,
Sebastian D'souza / AP / Mumbai Mirror

The disembodied voice was chilling in its rage. A gunman, holed up in the Oberoi Trident hotel in Mumbai (formerly Bombay), where some 40 people had been taken hostage, told an Indian news channel that the attacks were revenge for the persecution of Muslims in India. "We love this as our country, but when our mothers and sisters were being killed, where was everybody?" he asked via telephone. No answer came. But then he probably wasn't expecting one.

The roots of Muslim rage run deep in India, nourished by a long-held sense of injustice over what many Indian Muslims believe is institutionalized discrimination against the country's largest minority group. The disparities between Muslims, who make up 13.4% of the population, and India's Hindus, who hover at around 80%, are striking. There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking, Muslim Indians have shorter life spans, worse health, lower literacy levels and lower-paying jobs. Add to that toxic brew the lingering resentment over 2002's anti-Muslim riots in the state of Gujarat. The riots, instigated by Hindu nationalists, killed some 2,000 people, most of them Muslims. To this day, few of the perpetrators have been convicted.

Shoaib,
I congratulate you for beating the odds and achieving success in India. I also agree that the terror attacks will most likely hurt the middle class Indian Muslims like yourself economically and will probably strengthen the hands of the RSS, VHP and BJP. Though tragic and condemnable, the Mumbai attacks are triggering the much needed discussion about the suffering of Indian Muslims around the world. Major newspaper reporters and columnists in the West and sane Indians like Deepak Chopra are highlighting the plight of India's minorities and the continuing assault on them by the Hinditva groups and their allies in the government apparatus. Let's hope that the eventual outcome of such a discussion helps Indians realize that the biggest 21st century challenge India faces is the rise of Hindu fundamentalism and militancy. By effectively dealing with this challenge, India can claim its place as a great world power of this century.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 97; masadi

you miserable fool! tell me one useful thing in the silly book you so revere that either wasn't known at the time or couldn't be figured out via simple common sense?

If the answer is yes on both accords then tell me why it was needed in the first place?

PS: the questions are purely rhetorical

A U.S. setup

From Dawn http://dawn.com/2008/11/29/top9.htm




WASHINGTON/New York, Nov 28: US anti-terrorism experts have warned that ‘a smoking gun’ in the Mumbai attacks could not only derail Pakistan-India talks, but also jeopardise Islamabad’s relations with Washington.

Christine Fair, a South Asia affairs analyst for US think-tank RAND Corporation, said that the attacks had raised several questions.

“Was Pakistan involved? “What type of Pakistani involvement was there? Did anyone in the government know?�

She warned that “if there is a smoking gun,� it would have serious repercussions for US-Pakistan and Pakistan-India relations.

“The attacks will increase pressure on the incoming Obama administration to be tough on Pakistan,� she warned.

Bruce Riedel, a former South Asia analyst for the CIA and the US National Security Council who now advises President-elect Barack Obama, agreed.

“This is a new, horrific milestone in the global jihad,� he told The Washington Post.

“No indigenous Indian group has this level of capability. The goal is to damage the symbol of India’s economic renaissance, undermine investor confidence and provoke an India-Pakistan crisis.�

But Ms Fair believed that the attacks were apparently carried out by indigenous Indian militants with some outside support.

“This isn’t India’s 9/11. This is India’s Oklahoma City,� said Ms Fair, referring to an April 1995 domestic attack in the US that killed 168 people.

“It is almost unimaginable that this could have been done entirely by outside militants without Indian involvement; implications are very dangerous,� she told Dawn.

“There are a lot of “very, very angry Muslims in India. The economic disparities are startling,� she said. “This is a major domestic political challenge for India.�

Ms Fair said it was not possible to deny what happened during anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat in 2002.

“You have Islamist militants in India and you have a militarised Hindu right; these are small numbers but they feed on each other, without one the other will be difficult to exist,� she said.

Ms Fair said the Indians had a ‘strong incentive’ to link this to Al Qaeda,� but so far no one has presented any evidence to show that Al Qaeda is involved.

Another important question, she said, was how Israel would respond, especially if there’s a Pakistani involvement. “Another important question is: Could this be a reaction to (secret) Pakistan-Israel talks?...

Namrata Goswami, associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, agreed with Ms Fair.

“They want to establish some kind of linkage with Al Qaeda,� she told USA Today. “But I don’t believe it is there. The motive is very, very clear. This outfit wants to attract sponsors abroad. There’s a lot of money in it.�

Ms Goswami also endorsed Ms Fair’s views that Indian Muslims bore plenty of grievances against the Hindu majority. They lag behind economically. And they have been targeted by Hindu extremists; hundreds of Muslims died, for instance, in communal riots in Gujarat in 2002, she said.

Gary Ackerman, a pro-Indian Democratic Congressman from New York, worried about the Mumbai attacks’ implications for the United States.

“The implication for us is that there are bad guys still out there, and we’re going to have to learn how to deal with them, because our friends are getting sucked into this big-time,� said Congressman Ackerman, who chairs the House subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.

USA Today quoted Bahukutumbi Raman, former head of counter-terrorism for India’s intelligence agency, saying that the attackers caught Indian security forces unprepared.

“Till now, we were greeting with glee Pakistan’s incompetence in dealing with terrorism,� he said. “We can no longer do so. We have become as clueless as Pakistan.�

One highly placed US intelligence official, who has been briefed on the attacks, told CNN that the head of the operation was a Bangladeshi and that the militants were Indians, Kashmiris and Bangladeshis. The Indian military had sustained a large number of casualties, the source said....

From Dawn:

http://dawn.com/2008/11/29/top7.htm

ISLAMABAD, Nov 28: Conditions attached to the $7.6 billion International Monetary Fund loan are expected to cause up to three million job cuts in different sectors and push another 5.6 million to 7.5 million Pakistanis into poverty over the next two years.

This was stated by the chief economist of the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), Mr Sakib Shirani, at a discussion on the IMF loan organised here on Friday by the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). A number of economists and industrialists attended the discussion.

However, Mr Shirani, who was part of the talks held in Dubai between Pakistani and IMF officials, said the government was left with no option but to seek the IMF ‘standby arrangements’.

The topic of the discussion was “IMF: pain or panacea�.

When asked about the immediate fallout of the conditions which was aimed at slowing down the import-led economic growth, Mr Shirani said that two to three million people would lose their jobs in various sectors, including fertiliser, manufacturing and services.

He said the GDP growth was expected to slow down to 3.4 per cent this year. “Some 5.6 to 7.5 million people will be added to the existing number of poor�.

He blamed the previous government for introducing the import-led and less diversified economic growth in order to show that Pakistan was growing fast. If the present government succeeds in achieving quarter-wise targets given by the IMF, some improvement could be seen after 2010.
.....

Re #103, no way Jose. I predicted as falsification of my Oct 20 article that he will be elected. No surprises there.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

Re: # 98

Masadi miaN, admit the truth!

The morning of the night Mr. Obama became the President-Elect you had to be treated for serious skin injuries.

And it was because you were up all night -- pinching yourself again and again to convince the same that you were really awake! :)

BJ writes "trying to build bridges between Hindus and Muslims to agitate against the British together -- unlike some other leaders who were trying to drive wedges between communities."

It is like a pan-ethnic movement where based on common grievance you join forces on those grievances only, this does not mean you endorse the peculiarities of each group. The colonial monster was big enough for all groups to unite against them. Yasser is an ignoramus who should not be taken seriously....other than by the BBC of course....

Have a nice day and take it easy

Re: # 92

Muthu miaN, you have been listening too much to that Yasser. Please keep in mind that support to the khilafat movement was in 1910 or so -- and whether or not it turned out to have been a mistake, through it Gandhiji was at the time trying to build bridges between Hindus and Muslims to agitate against the British together -- unlike some other leaders who were trying to drive wedges between communities.

The vast majority of Mussulmans turned away from him because he was a Hindu and not a Muslim. It was unfortunate for the nation and turned out equally unfortunate for those who did.

However, for what it is worth, most of the bad-mouthing of Gandhiji on this site comes from Indian Hindus.

And it was a Hindu who killed Gandhiji -- not a Muslim fundamentalist.

sunil writes "it is general impression in india that muslims are ungratefull"

Treat an entire group as third rate citizens because you cannot get over the partition and then expecting them to be "grateful" for that. Reminds me of the White man in the US wanting the Black man to be grateful he hung him from a low tree instead of a tall one (reference to lynching).

have a nice day and take it easy,

TNI Masadi

it is general impression in india that muslims are ungratefull.shoib has done his bit to erase that impression thru this blog.hats offto him!!

Anil writes "Afterall Obama emerged..."

He did not "emerge" he was pushed up due to being successfully "sold out" at every level of elite socialization and now he is proving that by his appointments and endorsement by Karl Rove... you, as usual have no clue about anything. Get out of my face...

have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

akcheema writes "nb did leave the silly arabic book out ... mustn't forget!"

You miserable idiot, your posts reveal amply that moron-ism has taken deep root. There is nothing "silly" in the Quran, it is heads and shoulders above the kind of nonsense your kind of a-holes spew on here...

Have a nice day,

TNI Masadi

Ref anil #85

[Muslim Indians need to evolve a new leadership. Grow the Indian pie and make sure all minorities take their share; Create the Indian dream and make sure all minorities have right to have a dream. These are rights and not something put on a silver platter courtesy Modi or anyone else.]

Why bring in Modi who never offered the people of Gujarat any freebies? In fact, he said to the farmers that if they would pay for electricity he would make it available 24 hours a day whereas if they wanted free electricity they would get it whenever the government decided it would be possible to provide it.... like at 3 in the morning. The farmers of Gujarat chose to pay for their electricity and you don't hear about farmer suicides in Gujarat.

On the other hand, Congress offered free power to farmers in Andhra and got elected. Farmer suicides continue in Andhra.

All those screaming about mistreatment of minorities in India: here is a little thing for you to chew on.

Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion who is currently the chief minister of Masanamuthu's home state of Tamil Nadu brought in an ordinance (when the state's Legislative Assembly was in recess) to allow reservations in education and government jobs at 5% of the total for Christians. He also brought in a 5% reservation for Muslims.

Less than 6 months later, the same guy had to present a bill to the Legislative Assembly to undo the 5% reservation for Christians because the Christians protested that they could do better than the 5% quota on their own merit and that they feared that the quota would be used to limit them to 5% when they had the possibility of taking as much as they wanted if there were no quotas.

The Muslims expressed their gratitude to the chief minister for his generosity.

Talk about a difference in attitude!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref dawa-i-dil #28

[Thanks Allah we Pakistanis in 60 years never have such riots, we make Hindu our most prestigious Chief Justice of Pakistan]

And we Indians make Fakhr-ud-din Ali Ahmed the President and he meekly signs the Emergency Proclamation that made a mockery of the Indian Constitution!

At least, your Hindu was trying to uphold your Constitution whereas our Muslim was subverting our Constitution.

Gandhi ji did make mistakes .... he was human as the rest of us. What's disturbing is that some Hindus should harbour and nurture the same level and style of communalism they accuse others of ... the very fact Gandhi ji is hated by the most militant and aggressive Hindu organisations is a vindication of his sincerity towards the sort of India he dreamt of.

I am with Beej on this one, Despite what people have said, he'd have to be one of the most balanced interactors here.

BJ,

I don't want to make this board another victim to the Gandhi/Jinnah controversies. But just because you asked

If Gandhiji's support of the Khilafat movement is not pandering to Islamist fundamentalists then what is?. or hanging out with the likes of Maulana Maududi..

Re: # 90

Muthu miaN, Gandhiji did not pander to Islamic fundamentalists. He made no distinction between man and man based on religion.

More importantly, he never made use of killing groups to achieve political objectives. That distinction strictly belongs to the subcontinent's first Islamic terrorist named Mahomed Ali Jinnah -- who christened it "Direct Action Day".

Gandhi-Nehru were Hindu leaders who, in their hubris, presumed that they must speak for Muslims. For their blindness, everyone paid a huge price. We need to respect Muslims and let their own leaders - whoever they are at any time - speak for themselves and for their communities.

That's right. An addition though. I don't think they had strong convictions of themselves as leaders of both Hindus and Muslims even though they claimed to be leaders of Indians. While Nehru / Gandhi took to task the wile injustices perpetrated in the name of Hinduism, they wore purdah and hid under the bed in the case of injustices perpetrated in the name of Islam.

Nehru bamboozled all right wing Hindu opposition to bring in reforms in Hindu law while leaving the ridiculous Muslim personal law under Sharia untouched. Less said about the actions of Gandhi that pandered to the worst of Islamic communalists the better.

ixno, simon bhai (behen) is offering standard Islamist rhetoric. It should be understood as just that, so people can calmly listen to it, and act on it from a position of better awareness.

simon_templar - are you an indian muslim?
Doesnt sound so. Yes we are scared cornered but WE ARE NOT WITHOUT SLEFESTEEM or HONOR and are nothing but proud of our religion despite of circumstances. So pls spare us !!

Typical response from a cornered, scared, self-hating, no self-esteem, no honor, only carrying shame and guilt for his inherited religion and way of life. So much so, that he is only too willing to tow the farcical propaganda about Pakistan/ISI behind every leaf and blade of grass in india.

I don't blame the Daniyals of this world. They are forced to beg on their knees for their fundamental rights from the hindu. A state of affairs sagaciously predicted by the leaders of the Pakistan Movement.

The Muslims of India (or what is left of their identity), will have to get off their knees and start fighting for their basic human rights, much like the Blacks in America.

They have been on the plantation too long and seem to have acquired the unfortunate habit of mistaking handouts for "house ni**ers", for a seat at the table, for all.

Re: # 71

BJ:

There can be no denial that Muslim Indian leaders must emerge. Afterall Obama emerged and was elected by a maority. I am confident Shoaib's generation Indians are ready for Indian Obama.

Shoaib:

Excellently expressed. This is the kind of talk Muslim Indians need to speak out, and carry a stick of their votes to deal with Modis. Muslim Indians need to evolve a new leadership. Grow the Indian pie and make sure all minorities take their share; Create the Indian dream and make sure all minorities have right to have a dream. These are rights and not something put on a silver platter courtesy Modi or anyone else.

Shoaib seems like a wonderful person (from non-Muslim pov). If he has power among Muslims, we need to speak to him. If dawa behen or equivalent in India have power among Muslim Indians, we need to speak with them.

I have huge respect for shoaib, and only wish he gains the trust and leadership of all other Muslims.

romair, Gandhi-Nehru were Hindu leaders who, in their hubris, presumed that they must speak for Muslims. For their blindness, everyone paid a huge price. We need to respect Muslims and let their own leaders - whoever they are at any time - speak for themselves and for their communities.

Eklavya #: "Let Muslims speak for themselves and go with whoever has power among them. The rest of us can't afford to keep repeating the folly of Gandhi-Nehru."

...just out of curiousity, what do you consider the folly of Gandhi-Nehru......

"Thank God most of muslims in India are like Shoaib."

Pardesi ji, this is what I was talking to Beej about. There is no reason to believe that that is so or not so. May be there are many Muslims to whom Medina is more important than anything else. We don't know.

In short, it doesn't help for others to speak for Muslims, good or bad. Or to make any assumptions.

At best we can understand Islam. And prepare oursleves for the different ways in which Islam can manifest itself among its followers.

Let Muslims speak for themselves and go with whoever has power among them. The rest of us can't afford to keep repeating the folly of Gandhi-Nehru.

Dear Shoaib,

Do not leave chowk. Chowk closely reflects how Hindus and Muslims think in the real world. The hate, the distrust, the ego, the delusions, the stupidities, the deflections, the desire for acceptance, the reflections, the love, the acceptance which fight for space in chowk also do fight for space in the real world. (The only difference is perhaps the fact that proportionately chowkies are stupider and less well informed). If you dislike this madness in the real world then you, and you alone, should devise a strategy for yourself to get above and beyond such feelings. All the best and chowk will give you more strength.

#24 Dawa-i-dil "Re: # 20 Better life is a very small thing , we Pakistanis can sacrifice our lives and whole Pakistan on one sand grain of Medina and similarly indian muslim can sacrife whole india over Medina."

That's why many people believe that muslims can never be loyal to their countries and are mentally slaves of their Arabian masters.

Thank God most of muslims in India are like Shoaib.

shohaib yar dont know what to say, but if you survived BIT Mesra, you will survive anything ;-)

Well written Shoaib!

Shoeb, good article. Your sentiments were heartfelt. You are a welcome addition to chowk. Only piece of advice is don't get bogged down by the level of gaaligaloch that happens here.

Fantastic Shoaib, more power to voices like yours.

Re: # 65

BJ2

{The problem is, there are strong penalties associated with apostasy in Islam. I think that is the reason the vast majority keeps its mouth shut (not out of any sympathy for the bad people). }

Some element of truth in your statement but not entirely correct. Most of the muslim masses have no opinion, its mostly manufactured through state managed media.

{It is a difficult problem to solve and only Muslim folks can solve it -- since the solution must come from within.}

Not going to happen as long as we have all discourse on Islamic tenets dominated by the wahabi ruling elite in Mecca and Medina.

West had communism, India socialism and secularism which has greatly benefitted their society, unfortunately muslim world has not been that lucky. Maybe another ideology that takes away this religious phobia and inculcate new ideas will help muslim societies evolve as people.

I need to now make space for others in order to make tea for my own! :)

The common-sense view is that bread and butter issues are far more important. That's why the Pakistanis elected moderate leaders (when they were given a choice -- thanks to US interference.)

The common-sense view, from the IM viewpoint, would be that it is better to live a peaceful life and work hard to take care of their families and of their day-to-day needs.

The "radicalized" IM would have different priorities, of course. But, like all radical elements in any community, it is probably a small fringe. What the majority of IMs need to do is to figure out how to contain it before it does grievous damage to the nation (in the way it has done to Pakistan) and even more so to their own community.

Pakistan (presumably the failed state) was at a disadvantage in meeting this challenge, primarily because a country formed solely on the basis of religion will face inherent contradiction in opposing religious fundamentalism. India, with its secular fabric still intact, is in a better position to do so.

Re: # 69

Bhrata Eklavya, you are beginning to sound like the Jinnah -- that Hindus should speak for Hindus and only Muslims should speak for Muslims. That is a segregated mindset. In the USA, we have outlawed segregation. :)

And when it comes to the commodity called common-sense, every one ought to be considered innocent until proven guilty! In other words, unless they display its lack explicitly, they probably do have it. :)

lol, so these are things that everyone knows? :)

Again, beej, how do you make such statements about most Indian Muslims?

What is the basis? If you spoke of most Hindus, I could understand (and agree or disagree), but nost Muslim?

Re: # 66

Bhrata Eklavya, because it is common sense. Why would you withhold the presumption of holding that simple commodity by the vast majority?! :)

Shoaib, most Indian Muslims do have a strong identity as an Indian. It is merely one facet of their personality just like Indian Muslims are one facet of a multi-faceted ancient and very rich Indian culture which has improved over time through the addition of many cultures – including the Muslim one.

Terrorists have temporary political objectives but at root they only have commitment to their ideology – they merely co-opt political topics on an as-needed basis to further their own aims. In case of India, they seize upon the (legitimate) issue of the economic lagging behind of India’s Muslim population (whatever the causes) and they seize upon equally eagerly on the (bogus) issue of Kashmiri autonomy. But their overall objective is only to further their own aims. As long as people understand this simple fact, terrorists will never succeed in the long run.

bhrata beej

You seem to be very sure about the "vast majority" of Muslims. How come? :)

(Eklavya, I have not studied the topic very closely -- as I have admitted many times on this site.)

"Radical Islam" is a term used by many Western commentators to separate those Muslims who believe in moulding the world to their own views of what Islam preaches -- from the vast majority of Muslims who are Muslim by the accident of birth and merely live a simple, ordinary life that most people everywhere do and (hopefully) try to follow the "good" teachings of their religion while ignoring the parts which either do not make sense, are outdated, or are plainly anti-others.

Your complaint is -- why is the vast majority silent at the atrocious deeds of the radicalists. Your deduction appears to be that it is all a part of an all-inclusive conspiracy. It is not true. Why then, you ask, would the vast majority keep its mouth shut?!

The problem is, there are strong penalties associated with apostasy in Islam. I think that is the reason the vast majority keeps its mouth shut (not out of any sympathy for the bad people).

This is doubly damaging -- on one hand, it keeps a permanent chasm with "others" and on the other hand all new ideas are suppressed, making reform virtually impossible. Indeed, it makes it very difficult to make progess on any front since progress can only come from innovative thinking which is difficult to do when the freedom to be original is suppressed.

It is a difficult problem to solve and only Muslim folks can solve it -- since the solution must come from within.

So the FIRST task in India should be to get these people together and do business with them.

Beej, I am not quite sure what radical Islam is or how radical Islam is not Islam.

What I am telling you, and you can tell me if I am wrong, that there is NO WAY to live in peace with mecca-medina are important to me than my life or your life and my country or your country people, unless they live among themselves and in their own countries.

Akcheema, I asked my mother what it was when I was about 10, her answer was it's when a boy really hurts a girl.
And yes, Dawa's life is more precious than the Quran. It is only when people lose this that they can kill other humans.

(Eklavya, go easy on dear Dawa. Blissfully unaware of chowkies' real ages, she tirelessly continues with her ceaseless efforts at locating a prospective rishta among its septuagenarians. :( )

One of the larger objectives of the terrorists is to further vitiate the inter community relationships -- which are not great to begin with. They might have temporary success by building suspicion but they will fail over time because of the seeds of defeat which lie within -- their inherent inability to create anything new.

Granted it takes a very small number of plotters to wreak serious damage. However, that is all they can do. It does not change any policies. It does not change the economic realities of where each and every country in the world is headed. It does not change the increasing levels of education among the masses. It does not change the increasing desire for emancipation among the womenfolks of the world. Most importantly, it does not change simple common sense.

Nobody willingly tolerates a bully -- even though the bully may pretend to be on "their" side. People only put up with bullies because of fear. The reign of fear can go on for a while, but not permanently. It happened with Communism (which also looked invincible at one time) and it will happen with radical Islam.

lol @ 58

balatkar is rape.

cheema ji, ballat kar is a name the Pakistani government and knowledgeable Pakistanis use for the concept of India. All India (Hindus, actually) are ballat karis - those who like to be Indians.

Ask any pakistani who is clued in, they will know we are experts in ballat kar.

Re:55 akcheema
Yes, I asked this very same question to my father when I was, I think, ten.

His reply: "It's a bad thing that men do to women."

Hope it helps you more than it did me.

Re: # 55; nb

well said and agreed with fully! ... and yes thank you Eklavya ... nb did leave the silly arabic book out ... mustn't forget!

what in the name of God is ballat kaar??

Your life is more precious than a copy of the Ramayana or the Mahabharata or the Book of Mormon.

Don't leave out the Quran.

Don't give space to these pyschos, not in India, or out of their own little heavens they construct in their own countries.

Dawa, you know I'm fond of you. But -the terrorist who spoke to the TV channel was not Indian, regardless of what he claimed to be. That was not a 'pretend' Pathan accent, like some said. Several Pakistanis here are claiming the attacks are a Hindu right-wing conspiracy when all the evidence flies in the face of that. I think personally that regardless of who did it, the Indian government has failed Indians over and over. If this is the best they can do, they need to call elections.
And too, your life is more precious than any town, be it Mecca or Medina or Amritsar or the Vatican City. Your life is more precious than a copy of the Ramayana or the Mahabharata or the Book of Mormon. So is mine.

Apologies shoaib bhai, for messing up yout board a bit. But there is no other way to deal with medina is more important than all of pakistan and India psychos.

Good, we are ballat karis and we will ballat kar saad ullah and all other ullahs.

Have a good one.

I am too leaving

People here are more concerned how indian muslims should leave islam and only then thier 7 7 years old girls are not Balat Kaar otherwise if they remain as muslims thier daughters and sisters have to face Ballat Kaar.


Saad Ullah while talking to media from Oberoi Hotel said same thing that We love India but our sisters and mothers are Ballat Kaar so we did this

So keep on doing your Ballat Kaar, keep on choosing Moodi againa nd again and result is in front of us !

BYE

dawa, we are Hindus. We don't care two hoots for your Mecca, your Medina, or for Muslims for whom Mecca Median mean more than their own lives.

Simple logic, if you could see it.

Re: # 44

Bhai Sahab , i know this fact.This is the same thinking of BJP/RSS/Hindutava etc

plz. forgive muslims of india, let them live in peace while practising islaam and think about humanity first not islam
regards

dawa, you, more than every one else, are the unhappiest for Indian Muslims. Right?

Take them in. If you want to them fight us, then fight till Mecca Medina come home.

Anyways, this is all getting a bit too acrimonious for my liking.

So I'll be off now.

Enjoy.

"Pakistan is not responsible for all those came and all those who not came"

Correct.

Re: # 35 Pakistan is not responsible for all those came and all those who not came

Atleast 170 million people are save now , other way round even not a single muslim had saved if there would not have not Seperated from India

If you people are so much angry with ' illegal and unjust seperation' have another little Pakistan in India for UPinas

Regards

Re: # 35 Pakistan is not responsible for all those came and all those who not came

Atleast 170 million people are save now , other way round even not a single muslim had saved if there would not have not Seperated from India

If you people are so much angry with ' illegal and unjust seperation' have another little Pakistan in India for UPinas

Regards

Dawa, you really need to get your head straight. Face facts.

Pakistan and Muslim lives are worth NOTHING, not even a grain of sand of Medina.

dawa, no, it is not.

Hindu and all non-Muslim lives are frikkin MUCH MUCH more valuable than all of Medina and Meccan ten times over.

So there is no comparison. Don't try to make one.

Re: # 39 [By the way, we love balat kar. Our policy is balat kar all Muslim women.

As, all you Pakistanis know, we do with every woman in Kashmir.

That's the way we are. Else we woould have been Pakistanis.]


This is just shameful

Re: # 36 whats this logic , Hinduas are humans first like muslims why muslims are not treated equally just because they practice islam

is this humanity ? !!!

Masan, do we care for one grain of Medina? No. I don't.

It's time we stopped wasting breath on something even less valuable - Pakistan and Muslim lives.

By the way, we love balat kar. Our policy is balat kar all Muslim women.

As, all you Pakistanis know, we do with every woman in Kashmir.

That's the way we are. Else we woould have been Pakistanis.

Re: # 31 Cheema Bhai your 'difficulties' are just minor one some racial remarks, looks, attitiude etc. Atleast u people have a full chance to progress,grow and education . Its nothing as compare to what poor indian muslims are facing.
Regards

Better life is a very small thing , we Pakistanis can sacrifice our lives and whole Pakistan on one sand grain of Medina and similarly indian muslim can sacrife whole india over Medina.

Huh.. excuse me. What do you mean by this?. One sand grain of Medina precious than the whole of Pakistan. he..he.. :-)

dawa, you are not getting it, right.

We ARE Hindutva/RSS/BJP/XWZ/YRE or whatever.

If you can't live with us, fukk off wherver you want to.

Or kill or be killed or leave Islam.

Shahab naheen Shoaib. Don't mess with the name. :P

Yes, but how many people came? Was it ever feasible, especially for the poor to migrate across a sub-continent with a time span of under 3 years?

And the Lahore resolution has nothing to do with it being in Punjab. It might very well have been in Calcutta. Till it was actually announced, nobody had any inkling that Lahore would go to Pakistan. In fact in 1940 nobody had the faintest idea what Pakistan was going to be.

Jinnah had even accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946-a plan according to which there would be no Pakistan. Nehru, unfortunately overplayed his hand and dashed it.

As usual , when you cannot make logical and valid points u twist the thread into Pakistan Vs India thread instead of the real problems what indians muslims facing in India

In America/UK millions of muslims live but atleast those people not balat kaar thier 7 7 years old girls and burn them , they all practice islam according to thier choice freely, there are also terrorists in West but those people not burn muslims in response and ballat kaar

Why not Hindutava/RSS/BJP allows mulsims of india to freely exercisr islam ?

Dawa, one more thing. If religious motivations have nothing to do with terrorism or support for terrorism, then all you Muslims are basically psychos. And should be treated no differently at all than psychos.

Individually and collectively. You can make your own nation of pyschos, if you like, and live happily among yourselves.

So you mean islam is a evil religion and muslims of india shoulkd leave islam and should virtually accept hinduism while living in india


I think all religions are evil and Islam leads the pack by huge margins. Muslims need not convert to Hinduism, rather convert to humanism, that means being good human beings rather than being good Muslims.

Re: # 27; dawa

I am part of a minority where I live ... and believe me (and Shoaib) the difficulties and problems lie more with the minorities at times than the majority ... I had no problems growing up and progressing through life .. nor did my siblings .. because education was deemed important in our household ... the story is very different for most though ... I can tell you for sure if I'd been born in my native land, I'd be doing 'kaashkaari' like my cousins and considering my self lucky to be around!

in 'our' world we expect the minorities to make concessions ... why do we have different rules when we ourselves are a minority?

Dawa, you Pakistanis are the best, but we don't want to be like you. Is that ok with you.

Those Indian Muslims who want to be like you, please take them.

We are frikkin Hindus. Let us live in peace, if you Pakistais can.

If not, then it is Mecca-Medina time.

dawa, it's no point defending Pakistan.

The first thing we all need to do is to sacrifice Pakistani lives and whole of Pakistan as a nation and a state over a grain of Medina.

Indian Muslims too can join them, if they so wish.

Thereafter, we can live normally and begin to address human issues.

Re: # 25

Sorry Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. There are 56 independence movements going on in india. Are they all muslims !

Fact is that RSS/RAW like Col. Prohot as countered by late ATF head was shot dead specifically as he was bringing BJP and Hindutava inner connections !

For God sake, allow muslims of india to live in peace , 60 years have passed and still u burn them alive ballat kaar thier lil girls and then make this terrorist Moodi again CM Gujrat

Thanks Allah we Pakistanis in 60 years never have such riots, we make Hindu our most prestigious Chief Justice of Pakistan

Foir God sake, have a pity on poor indian muslims

Re: # 23 Shahab plz. correct your facts that nobody denies UP sacrifice and efforts and for your kind information Karachi and whole sindh is full of people from UP, Maharashtar, Bhopal, Madras,hyderabad etc. They are muhajirs.If someone not get a chance to reach Pakistan, its not means you start blamming Punjab NWFP etc. It was Lahore and Punjab who played leading role in division ,Lahore Resolution, ML Student federation and after 1 crore muhajirs came to Punjab , all did by Punjab

Dawa
"muslims are deprived of thier basic rights in india of education, health, discrimination stae terrorism of Gujrat state see the Indian Justice Comission report recently published , i forgot the name of that commission.."

Do you see the irony in your sentence?

I have never said that the Muslim in India is in Utopia, but you had to quote an Indian commission to make your point.

Ok, sacrifice your life, and those Indian muslims who wish to join you can do so.

The rest can leave Islam if it cannot let them live in peace with others.

Re: # 20 Better life is a very small thing , we Pakistanis can sacrifice our lives and whole Pakistan on one sand grain of Medina and similarly indian muslim can sacrife whole india over Medina.

dawa-i-dil,

Do you know which parts of India formed Pakistan? The provinces that formed Pakistan were Muslim majority provinces. In fact Mountbatten(or Wavell, i forget) had noted the odd fact that Punjab itself had less unthsuaism for Pak than UP.

The ML did not even have a govt in the Punjab (a unionist govt) and NWFP (Congress govt) till a few years before 1947. Most of the cadre of the ML was drawn from UP. Pak's first PM was from UP. (Hence the importance given to Urdu in the new nation)

Why was the ML weak in Punjab? Because there was no safety issue at all for the Muslims. They anyways outnumbered the Hindus(which in turn led to horrible massacres in Lahore). If anybody needed a Pakistan it was the Muslims who lived in minority provinces like UP and Delhi. But they were left in the lurch as Jinnah had gotten his fiefdom.

Please read Indian history from 1940 to 47. There is no glory in what happened there. Only blood. And we are suffering till today because of that.

dawa, fine. The two are living on the streets. But if they support terrorism, they need to be, and will be kicked on their rears.

Javed Akhtar and Shabana Aazmi , Bollywood top musician and film maker/writer could not find a single house in good area of Mumbai because they are muslims ,Shoaiab Sahab things are not so simple and straight as you are posing !

dawa, why not? What's the problem with leaving Islam if it helps a person lead a better life with his or her fellow humans?

Shaoib, there are issues with Indian Muslims. But none of them have the slightest connection to terrorism.

Those who make those connections are nothing but supporters of terrorism.

Terrorism needs to be addressed separately. Once we do that then other issues can be addressed as for all other communities.

Terrorism only delays solutions or makes it impossible to solve any other problem.

Re: # 16 So you mean islam is a evil religion and muslims of india shoulkd leave islam and should virtually accept hinduism while living in india

my salute to you !

Shoiab Sahab , problem is not solved by bringing women in mosque, problem remains there that muslims are deprived of thier basic rights in india of education, health, discrimination stae terrorism of Gujrat state see the Indian Justice Comission report recently published , i forgot the name of that commission.

and Plz. i have seen people here blaming Jinnah and Separation as a main cause of problem. Thanks to Jinnah atleast he made 17 crore Muslims of Pakistan free from such discrimination.


Jinnah could not make Pakistan for all muslims of india. But what he did for us , we are thankful to us atleast state police not balaat kaar our 7 7 years old girls and then burn them alive as what happened in Gujrat

Regards

Shoaib,

nice to hear from you.

These kind of attacks hurts the Indian Muslims real bad than helping them. But to tell you the truth as Sanatani said, people are realising that it is Islam that is the problem and not the Muslims.

Same way as Hinduism is attacked for caste discrimination, it is high time Muslims start attacking Islam for the murderous ideology it is.

Another thing.

Many commentators across the board have blamed the marginalisation of India's Muslims for their angst which in turn, they say, leads to these terror attacks.

To some extent this is true. But only to some extent. Firstly, Muslims aren't the only marginalised group in India.

Secondly, if this is the reason for terror in India, what reason can there possibly be for terror in a place like Pakistan where the question of Muslim marginalistaion does not even arise?

Let us not run away from the problem. Let us tackle it head on.

A lot of people here are reeling out facts of the backwardness of Muslims in India

In my article I have mentioned that but I have also mentioned that “a large part of the blame for which (backwardness) it will have to shoulder itself.�

Yes, the state is responsible to some extent, no doubt, but so is the community itself. Let us not be ostriches and not take cognisance of the fact.

For example who is stopping us from bringing women into our Masjids? Who? Why don’t we?

Why do we have a civil code that makes polygamy legal? Why don’t we agitate for that instead of wasting our energies over some cartoon drawn in Europe?

The more we run away from the real difficult things, the deeper we will dig ourselves into this pit, until one day it kills us.

Chief Justice thats true and really sad :(

Re: # 11

An article by BBC (written by a Hindu journalist):

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/ 2/hi/south_asia/6938090.stm

Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?


By Soutik Biswas
BBC News



As historians tell it, during India's first election in 1952, Jawaharlal Nehru was already worrying about the feeble representation of Muslims in the country's positions of authority.
Many more Muslims had stayed back in India than the millions who migrated to newly-born Pakistan after the partition just five years before.

India's first prime minister's concerns about the country's second largest religious group and the largest religious minority were eminently justified.




"There were hardly any Muslims left in the defence service, and not many in the secretariat," says historian Ramachandra Guha.

Little change

Next year, in 1953, a group of intellectuals met to discuss forming a political party for the Muslims and spoke about the low representation of Muslims in political positions and bureaucracy.

More than half century later, on India's 60th anniversary of independence, very little has changed.


Today, at over 138 million, Muslims constitute over 13% of India 's billion-strong population, and in sheer numbers are exceeded only by Indonesia's and Pakistan's Muslim community.

The country has had three Muslim presidents - a largely ceremonial role. Bollywood and cricket, two secular pan-Indian obsessions, continue to have their fair share of Muslim stars - the ruling heroes in Mumbai films are Shah Rukh, Aamir and Salman Khan, and the star of India's current English cricket tour is pace bowler Zaheer Khan. Not long ago, the national team was led by the stylish Mohammed Azharuddin.

That's where the good news essentially ends.


Muslims comprise only 5% of employees in India's big government, a recent study found. The figure for Indian Railways, the country's biggest employer, is only 4.5%.
The community continues to have a paltry representation in the bureaucracy and police - 3% in the powerful Indian Civil Service, 1.8% in foreign service and only 4% in the Indian Police Service. And Muslims account for only 7.8% of the people working in the judiciary.

Indian Muslims are also largely illiterate and poor.

At just under 60%, the community's literacy rate is lower than the national average of 65%. Only half of Muslim women can read and write. As many as a quarter of Muslim children in the age-group 6-14 have either never attended school or dropped out.

They are also poor - 31% of Muslims are below the country's poverty line, just a notch above the lowest castes and tribes who remain the poorest of the poor.

Identity card

To add to the community's woes are myriad problems relating to, as one expert says, "identity, security and equity".

"They carry a double burden of being labelled as 'anti-national' and as being 'appeased' at the same time," says a recent report on the state of Indian Muslims.

Historians say it is ironic that many Indians bought the Hindu nationalist bogey of 'Muslim appeasement' when it had not translated into any major socio-economic gain for the community.

So why has the lot of Indian Muslims remained miserable after six decades of independence?


For one, it is the sheer apathy and ineptitude of the Indian state which has failed to provide equality of opportunity in health, education and employment.
This has hurt the poor - including the Muslim poor who comprise the majority of the community - most.

There is also the relatively recent trend of political bias against the community when Hindu nationalist governments have ruled in Delhi and the states.

Also, the lack of credible middle class leadership among the Muslims has hobbled the community's vision and progress.

Consequently, rabble rousers claiming to represent the community have thrust themselves to the fore.

To be true, mass migration during partition robbed the community of potential leaders - most Muslim civil servants, teachers, doctors and professionals crossed over.

But the failure to throw up credible leaders has meant low community participation in the political processes and government - of the 543 MPs in India's lower house of parliament, only 36 are Muslims.

Also, as Ramachandra Guha says, the "vicissitudes of India-Pakistan relations and Pakistan's treatment of its minorities" ensured that Muslims remained a "vulnerable" community.

Regional disparities

The plight of Indian Muslims also has a lot to do with the appalling quality of governance, unequal social order and lack of equality of opportunity in northern India where most of the community lives.

Populous Uttar Pradesh is home to nearly a fifth of Muslims (31 million) living in India, while Bihar has more than 10 million community members.


"Southern India is a different picture. Larger cultural and social movements have made education more accessible and self employment more lucrative benefiting a large number of Muslims," says historian Mahesh Rangarajan.
In Andhra Pradesh state, for example, 68% of Muslims are literate, higher than the state and national average. School enrolment rates for Muslim children are above 90% in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

Mahesh Rangarajan says poverty and "absence of ameliorative policies" has hurt India's Muslims most.

If India was to be "a secular, stable and strong state," Nehru once said, "then our first consideration must be to give absolute fair play to our minority".

Shoaib, a good article but plz. dont under estimate things

No one supports the innocent killings and no one can justify what terrorists did


But its also wrong to say all is well for muslims in India

How many of muslims according to thier population precentage are EE from IIt Mumbai, IIT Madras etc. If you have did it well good, but did muslimsare even about 1% in such institutions if not 20% which they make up of whole india

Plz. dont tell me they are so dumb and duffer to get into these schools !

Teerorism iin any form is not justified but plz. dont say all is colourful what we have seen recently in Orissa for christians and for muslims in Gujrat

Regards

Re: # 8

Regards Sahib,

Please let me know how you equate the Pandits with the Mullahs. The only politico religous demand of the Pandits has been to ban cow slaughter.

That a subject being dear to Hindus is not wrong. But in the case of Mullahs and Imams it is a totally different thing.

Babri Msajid could have been bilaterally solved between Hindus and Muslims of Ayodhya if the mullah leadership and AIMPLB had not intervened to make it a issue of Islam khatre main and Islam ki izzat.

To equate the two is not silly it is like covering up a crime.

Hope this will help you to see the truth of the actions of both

Regards
Sanatani

Dear Shoaib,

Even though you will not like what I am saying I shall still say it.

People like me (and have not found anything contrary to the same) it is not Muslims but Islam that is evil as in our view like xtianity and judaism it is not a religion but a perverse political philospsohy that is inherently murderous.

However for the 1st time I have felt that the anguish of a muslim could be genuine for Bharat Ma's pain.

At the same time pls see ofr it yourself if you were in any muslim country the rights etc you would have had would have been much less than here and it is only a few people like you amongst your community who could value that.

Sanatani

I was in Gonda in 1997 the muslims had voted en bloc for Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh (one of the chief mobilisers for the BJP during the rath yatra) as simply 1 person was arrested from his house who happened to be Dawood's agent. For the funeral of a Lance Naik of the Grenadiers in a village close to Gonda died in Assam in CI ops it was said that not even 5% of the muslims from his village came but a whole lot of Hindus even from the main city. They all came at the instance of the local RSS leader who mistakenly thought that the muslims would view it positively if they paid homage to a muslim who died for his country. Apparently the local muslims had no use for such a man. This RSS guy was seethingwith anger and they say angers causes madness his parting comment to me on the subject was agar aaj Danga hota hai to mai pehli us Shaheed ke ghar walon ko marronga yeh mussalman Mader**** keval yeh hi bhasha samajhte hai. The irony was lost on him of his own words then and his previous actions.

Shoaib,
Though Modi of Gujarat is considered a muslim nemesis and patron of Sangh parivar, he had no remorse in clearing several hundred temples to make way for a highway last month. Nobody heard of riots by Hindus.

Here is a way forward.Whenever the religion gets in the way of civilized life, it should be firmly told to get out.

Here is one simple way of creating a snowball. Every morning at 5AM, students, night shift workers, sick and in short who are trying to sleep are woken up by Azaan. Hindus have also taken the cue, political assertiveness is put through loud speakers for Kirtans, Bhajans...

You as a Muslim. Write articles, call public attention and ask mullahs to send SMS or telephone calls to invite to prayer and no azaans on loud speakers. I swear, I'll walk in the first kirtan and ask them to stop as long as I can show that muslims are also trying to be ... civilized.

I feel strongly one simple action where Mullah and Pundits are defeated will be sufficient to bring back secular and civilized society back to its feet.

Good one Shoaibh. If only more Indian muslims were like you, there wouldn't be any problem.

The good people at Chowk have made some changes which I feel are very important to the whole article.

I have written to them about it. However since my permission was not taken before these changes were put into place I am taking the liberty of putting down my original points here:

"The BJP has already taken out ads which read "Fight Terror. Vote BJP" should read:

The BJP has already taken out ads in Delhi which read "Fight Terror. Vote BJP" written on a background of blood.

If need be I can also provide a digital copy of the ad. Or you can just pick up yesterday's copy of any Delhi paper (ToI, HT).

The last line of the article has been totally deleted. It read:

"JUST GET THE FUCK OUT OF MINE."

And most importantly the current title is not mine. And in fact I DO NOT want this article to be named "An Indian Muslim". The original title was , "Dear Mr. Terrorist"

Youngman Shoib
You are a good person and has written this piece straight fromthe heart. I pray that you remain so and for that it is necessary that you stop coming to Chowk where cynicals like us will destroy your idealism.
All the best and keep it up.
Regards

You see Shoib I agree with your opinion,We the Indian Muslims have been most victimised .Those who at the behest of MoulanaAzad And Congress Nehru For one reason or another did not Migrate was once betrayed .

At the formation of B De sh in 72 There was rude awakening for those who migrated but to East Pakistan.Its double indemnity .If migration the answer then why did migrated Indian Muslims were Killed in Muslim state East Pakistan or B De sh ?

The answer is not this or that .
If Correct answer is Migration Then Why is there political orphan status of those who left there home ?

it can be argued left behind Muslim Minority have been orphan so in India too .

Let Say more Indian Muslims migrated . was Jinnah able to take in 3 crores in 47 or 15 crores present population of Indian Muslims.I don't think so .There were no provision nor solution to Indian Muslims ..
In my opinion Independence and Partition was done in HASTE . Congress was drooling to have it very next day if possible .they could not wait even one more day If there was not so much haste things could have been worked out even Kashmir ....instead of 2 wars and present excuse for terrorism .I condemn the terrorist in the same breath as you as Indian Muslim .But Indian Muslim did not want partition .no body cared .
I am afraid no terrorist will listen to us .We are sitting in car whose steering is in the hands of
India
Paskistan
or Terrorist
and there is nothing you can do about it .

The fourth element is the Right wing hindutva ..I know some Hindutvawant to bounce Indian Muslim as Ping Pong ball between congress and Appeasement vote bank slur .Only thing that all are willing to give is A vote per Muslim every 4/5 years for what it is worth .

good one, shoaib...

good one, shoaib...

Shoaib,

What a sensitive and eloquent way of making your point. The point of the average, law abiding Indian.

May your tribe increase.