The Mumbai Terror Apologists

dost-mittar #: "As I said, I know a punjabi when I hear one and I have no doubt about this guy."

.....i am afraid this is not enough of reason to discard what that terrorist stated....though if you want to remain convinced of it, that is upto you.....i would suggest you look at what is in front of you......you maybe right and the person maybe a punjabi from pakistani.......but that is not what is in front of you.....

one thing i would like to ask you....punjab is a vast area, with a population equal to japan......there is a vast array of punjabi accents and wordages.....i can tell the difference between them immediately.....there is the saraiki of multan.....there is the mixed saraiki-punjabi as one moves northwards from multan.....there is the punjabi of the mianwali area.....there is the potohari punjabi of jehlum to pindi.....there is the pahari punjabi as one moves into kashmir, via mirpur.....and there is the punjabi of lahore, which, pre-partition, probably, extended into amritsar etc......

i have noticed the punjabi spoken by indian punjabis, like yourself, to be quite different from that spoken in pakistan, now......specially the punjabi spoken by indian sikhs.....i assume punjabi, within india, changes from region to region.......that spoken in delhi maybe different from that spoken in amritsar.......

......if you recognize it as punjabi, wouldn't that imply that he is an indian punjabi......since that is the punjabi you speak......if not, then why not.....and which area of punjab, in pakistan, would you trace back his accent to.....and what is the basis of your familiarity with these regions and accents in pakistan's punjab.......

Pakistan not to tolerate surgical strikes: FM

Friday, December 26, 2008
Teleconference with Chinese counterpart today
MULTAN: Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi on Thursday expressed the hope that India would not commit the mistake of carrying out surgical strikes. “We will be compelled to respond if it happens,� he told reporters on his arrival at the airport here.

Responding to a question whether the possibility of war could be ruled out, he said: “If you are asking me, I am not ruling out anything. But if war is imposed, we will respond to it like a brave nation.� He said: “I want to convey this message to India that we are the torchbearers of peace and remain committed to our desire for peace.�

above is from jang of today.

The minister also added that pakistan welcomes surgical strikes by teh americans, as long as they can be attributed to unmanned aircraft.

The minister quoted the book, sura 1309,12 which states that man is teh supreme which implies that unmanned aircraft are stateless. The minister emphasised that it is the same logic for mumbai bomb9ings, if the man is not a pakistani and is not an indian, then he is stateless, very similar to the predators bombing pakistan.

such bombings are similar to honour killings, where no crime has been committed, implying no killing has taken place.. similarly a predator bombing is a case where no bombing has happened, and no one is killed.

Depicting the soul of Pakistan at 60
Friday, December 26, 2008
by Qudssia Akhlaque

Islamabad

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has come up with an extraordinary book on Pakistan, which has nothing to do with international affairs or diplomacy, but is a welcome departure from its run-of-the-mill publications.

It is a fabulous 250-pages hardcover coffee table book titled ‘Pakistan,’ which is essentially a pictorial narrative of the country. It gives an overview of Pakistan’s diverse and magnificent topographies, its people, rich cultural heritage and contemporary times.

“The portrayal includes brief descriptions of the country’s geography, its history spanning over seven millennia and the life of its people and their old and new traditions,� says the foreword of the book.

The above is from jang of today

The book also contains the latest events of pakistani history, includes an interview with shaik mahamood before he was handed over to the americans. It contains the photo of the house of pakistani army major where sheik was arrested.

It also has welcomig photos of asghar as he was released by the indians in response to hijacking as he went on to create lasker e toiba.

Good to see that at last pakistanis are becoming honest in tehir reporting of their country.

y our correspondent

"PESHAWAR: A previously-unknown pro-Taliban group, Ansar Wa Mohajir, has claimed responsibility for Wednesday’s bomb explosion in Lahore and the earlier rocket attacks on Dera Ismail Khan.

Toofan Wazir, identifying himself as a commander and spokesman of the group, phoned The News from somewhere in North Waziristan to claim responsibility for the two attacks. He threatened more attacks against the security forces and the government installations to avenge the two recent US missile strikes in North Waziristan in which several militants belonging to the Punjab were killed.

According to Toofan Wazir, the US drones fired the missiles at Pakistani targets with the agreement and cooperation of the government of Pakistan. He said revenge would be taken from both the Americans and the Pakistan government. In Pakistan, he warned, suicide bombings would be carried out and bombs would be planted and exploded at important government installations."

Above is from jang of today.

General Romair masood, head of ISI also claimed that teh above group is supported by the indians and have bases in afghanistan.

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Re #421: Romair

"at the some time, pakistanis do not consider militant attacks in kashmir, against indian soldiers, to be terrorism......they consider it to be a freedom fight......"

How about militant attacks on common people, in public places? Do you sincerely think only Indian soldiers have been the victims of this "freedom fight"? Grow up. Of course you can't grow up on what the so-called free press (thoroughly exposed post-Mumbai) in Pakistan feeds you, so you have to look at other options too.

"consider the indian govts. actions in kashmir to be state terrorism.......this is where the disconnect happens to be between indians and pakistanis.....indians consider militant attacks in kashmir to be terrorism and indian forces killings of civilians are not acknowledged......"

That is but natural, isn't it? One man's freedom fight (if violent) is another's terrorism. From your viewpoint (and that of the majority of Pakistanis, it appears) the US military's actions in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan probably form the biggest terrorist attacks ever. For that matter, Indian radical freedom fighters in British India were considered terrorists by the British police too. That doesn't mean anything :)

If Pakistan had not covertly (and overtly) aided the "freedom movement" in Kashmir, the Indian state (or army) would have had far less provocation to commit the excesses (which as anyone would tell you are a necessary evil in the suppression of terrorism) that you refer to as state terrorism. And there would have been far more international pressure on India in this regard (and India is a responsible country that has to pay heed to it; it can't get away with duplicity). Probably we would already have attained an amicable solution to the Kashmir issue by now (of course, that may not be the solution that Pakistan wanted; it may been the solution that Kashmiris wanted). Pakistan has undermined the Kashmiri movement more than anyone else - period.

As for asking the people of Kashmir themselves as to who the real terrorists are, it depends: if you selectively survey the people that were victims of army excesses, you will get the answer you seek and can lick your tongue in glee and write one more post about it. If you seek more objectively, you will find that a large majority of the people there is fed up of both the terrorists and the security forces, and just want to lead a normal life first. Basic necessities (food, shelter, steady income, development) are on top of their minds, not aazaadi (which might still be in the top ten). The problem with sustained militancy (oh, i am sorry, your freedom fight) is that it hampers basic development in the name of aazaadi, frustrating people no end. There are people who have lived their entire lives amidst violence - I shudder to think of that.

So here's the bottomline, and I can repeat this a hundred times: the Pakistani establishment (which is dominated by the military) has a blind, vindictive agenda - going far beyond their interest in just aazaadi for Kashmir - the aim of which is to simply go full steam and covertly abet violence in Kashmir and other parts of India (they can also send their own soldiers, without uniform, as militants and claim that they are all home-grown Indian militants). Then, when India reacts legitimately, they will cry wolf and say we want peace, it is India that wants war. What a cry-baby! And the bigger tragedy is that the US has been pampering this cry-baby for a long time now.

It does not matter what the common man in Pakistan thinks. As long as these merchants of deceit and terror are occupying the seats of power, nothing will change. Nothing short of a full-blown civil revolution in Pakistan can change things - and I doubt this will happen in the near future. Maybe the next generation is game enough??

anil #: "Going back to your analogy, if I would have withdrawn from the assignment"

....this is the correct answer, in my opinion......one should not take the assignment, one doesn't feel professionally comfortable with......however, one cannot fire the client giving the assignment.....in this case, the assisgnment was offered to neutral consultant eklavya......you made a bid on your own initiative for the contract...

"You have yourself said that Pakistani awam does not vote for terrorism or terrorists, to put forward you have pointed to election results"

....yes pakistanis do not support terrorism or terrorists, electorally or politically.......the only confirmed terrorist to ever be elected in any election is a member from lashkar-e-jhangvi - a sunni terrorist organization, which targets shias in pakistan.....

at the some time, pakistanis do not consider militant attacks in kashmir, against indian soldiers, to be terrorism......they consider it to be a freedom fight......the consider the indian govts. actions in kashmir to be state terrorism.......this is where the disconnect happens to be between indians and pakistanis.....indians consider militant attacks in kashmir to be terrorism and indian forces killings of civilians are not acknowledged......

....setting aside the 1% pakistan liberal english media, there is, actually, quite a bit of support (and maybe admiration) amongst common pakistanis for militants fighting indian forces in kashmir......these militants are (were) financed greatly by donations.......much like there is a great deal of support and admiration in india for indian soldiers fighting in kashmir....

.......as for mumbai, i think you will have to look long and hard to find any pakistani who doesn't consider it terrorism.....it is obviously terorrism.....the only item pakisanis are asking for is evidence to decide pakistanis' level of involvement.....they feel that india is, incorrectly, placing 100% blame on pakistan.....

.....i don't think too many pakistanis would have much problem with militants fighting indian forces in kashmir......they would have a problem if these militants started fighting in inida, or starting killing civilians.....or got out of control and started joining al-qaeda, etc........

i think the best way to solve this, is to ask the kashmiris who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter in kashmir....i.e. indian state vs. militants (pakistanis and kashmiris)......

i don't think you will get too many disagreements though on the bombings in pakistan and in india being viewed as terrorism, from both sides......

....i still think my theory is correct.....interestingly, al-qaeda joined with lashkar-e-jhangvi to destroy marriott.....(this has now been stated by pakistani security)......and if my analysis is correct, al-qaeda joined with some pakistanis and some local indian groups to destroy the taj and oberoi.....

taj opened yesterday and marriott is about to open......

...in this whole scenario, from marriott to taj, i think, strategically, the biggest winner is al-qaeda....it has achieved exactly what it wanted......every one else will lose out.......

Re: # 416

Romair:

The most important quality needed is that consultant must not be professionally dishonest. He / she should walk away rather than continue on the job, if he thinks his client is dishonest. When Arthur Anderson went along with not CEO Steve Ballmar, but Enron's, they lost everything.

You have yourself said that Pakistani awam does not vote for terrorism or terrorists, to put forward you have pointed to election results. If you are saying that Pakistani awam supports terror, or terrorists in any disguise that is a different point.

Going back to your analogy, if I would have withdrawn from the assignment (and have done so in my career) than make wrong recommendation.

Romair#415, 417:

"....i think the main reason is the nuclear deterrence.....i am surprised you have not included the fact that all of india and pakistan could be up in flames, if a war started....i am sure this is also being put into the equation by india....."

I agree with this. Nuclear factor plays a major role.

Regarding Lahore explosion and the arrest of Indians, it is too early for me to make a comment. I am still waiting for more facts to come out in public.

However, there is no equivalence between India and Pakistan except in the Pakistani thinking. Pakistan has zero credibility in the world opinion. India has yet to reach that position. Pakistan stands condemned universally by the whole world as a sponsor of terrorism. Unless one is living on another planet, one cannot escape the daily deluge of articles and reports refusing to accept that lashkars, taleban, etc. are acting without support from state agencies; these agencies continue to feed the monster even after it has turned into a frankenstein.

However, this is not my comment on the Lahore bombing situation. And, no, Pakistan does not have to prove to Indians but it has to prove it to outsiders. Maybe Pakistan will also be able to convince foreigners that Indians had sent terrorists in Lahore on a bombing expedition. Until then, I'll wait.

Romair#414:

As I said, I know a punjabi when I hear one and I have no doubt about this guy. Which non-urdu accent do you think he has? nb or Majumdar will tell you that he is no bengali and VRV or masanmuthu will tell you that he is no 'madrasi', so which other non-urdu or even hindi speaking person could he be?

In any case this is a fruitless discussion. The point you are making is that there are Indian collaborators in the Mumbai attack and I have no problem in accepting that, nor does any other Indian. The Indian police is already investigating that angle and at least two Indians are in police custody (and no, it is not the person who sold sim cards in Kolkotta who is suspected of a Kashmir police agent.

I did not say that Pakistan is a thief because India has accused it of. The whole world has accused Pakistan of being dishonest and duplicitous and of playing murderous games. India has convinced the powers that be who have conducted their own independent investigations. India does not need to give any evidence to Interpol at this stage. It will do so only when investigations are complete, a person has been found guilty and is believed to be in a foreign country so that Interpol can issue a red alert for this person. This applies to Ibrahim Dawood, Memon, Chota Shakeel and other persons for whom Interpol's help has been sought.

dost-mittar #: "LAHORE: Intelligence agencies of Pakistan arrested three more Indians on the pointation of Indian national Satish Anand on Wednesday.

The intelligence agencies earlier on Wednesday arrested the Indian citizen Satish Anand and recovered from him maps and documents containing sensitive information.

Later, on the pointation of Satish Anand, the agencies raided different parts of Lahore and arrested three more Indians. A camera and pistol were recovered from them, sources said." (www.jang.com.pk)

.....there was a bomb explosion in a posh area of lahore yesterday.....killing one lady....pakistan has stated that it caught an indian named satish, related to this....and has now caught three more indians, through him.......

.......do you feel it should be pakistan's responsibility to prove its claim(s) to be true.......or do you think, since, india has been accused of this, "theft," hence it is india's responsibility to prove it is not the thief......

in my opinion, it is pakistan's responsibility to provide the facts and proof......and it needs to put satish (if he exists) in front of a cross-examination......until then, india has a legitimate right to ask for proof, to support any scenario pakistan's puts forward......

anil #: "This would not change my conclusion because "vendor" has to be loyal to his profession "art of consultancy" and give the conclusion."

........suppose steve ballmer hires you to get your advice on whether he should purchase yahoo or not....suppose you believe that steve ballmer is totally incompetent, or was not appointed correctly as the ceo of microsft....and that larry ellison should be the ceo of microsoft......would you advise him on yahoo......or would you try to get him fired?

"I also pointed out that "awam" elects the "strategic thinker" and should be able to fire, unless the system does not reflect awam's voice."

....why are you assuming that the awam has not elected the strategic thinker?.....

a good quality of a consultant is that he/she should not let his/her personal biases and opinions impact the project.....

dost-mittar #: "Indians are not going to attack Pakistan or any targets there. That would be playing into the Pak military strategists who are looking for an excuse to get out of FATA and Waziristan mess."

....i don't think this is the reason....i think the main reason is the nuclear deterrence.....i am surprised you have not included the fact that all of india and pakistan could be up in flames, if a war started....i am sure this is also being put into the equation by india......

in addition, until all the evidence it laid out on the table, one has to consider the fact that india may not (or may) have the facts to back up the scenario it has portrayed so far......hence it does not want to risk an all out war, on incomplete evidence.......

......though that could be a tactical move by india, and it very well may disclose everything at some critical point......i, personally, think india is losing the advantage it gained, internationally, the longer it waits to put up its case with proof.....

my guess is that we will soon see a video recorded testimony from kasab, where he will state everything that india has stated......however, he will not be allowed to be cross-examined or questioned by any int'l or pakistani sources.....

this will be enough to satisfy the one group the indian govt. definitely wants to satisfy, prior to elections....i.e. the indian electorate......though i doubt it will satisfy the int'l community......

in any case, i have never figured out why anyone would not want to openly disclose evidence......the only time i have seen this situation is in cases like 9/11 or iraq, where a massive media campaign creates a public opinion, and then the evidence gets lost in the background......

......i am not sure if india has the media power to create such a campaign.......

you have, stated that there is no need for india to put forth any evidence.....and that it is pakistan's responsibility to disprove india's scenario, rather than india's responsibility to prove it......based on this, do you think that if an explosion occurs in pakistan, it would be india's responsibility to disprove its responsibility, as well?.....

in any case, do you think there is a strategic advantage for india to not put any evidence forward, or do you think it is not even required....

dost-mittar #: "I know punjabi accent and Babar's accent is punjabi."

....i suppose this statement is enough to ensure that the guy was a punjabi.....apparently, there will, always be some pakistanis who will never be convinced that kasab is a pakistani and some indians who will never be convinced that a person, himself, stating a cause, speaking hindi, using hindi words is an indian.....

.....imgaine if he had said, "mein tussan dae gkhaar jawaan gae tae tuwwaddaw ahl-khana noon maar dawaan ga.....tussaan marhay pakistani prahwaan dae naal panga litta ae"

....now if someone, from india, said a person is speaking punjabi, talking about pakistan, using punjabi words, and must be a pakistan.....and if some pakistani said, well, actully he used the world ahl-e-khana (which sounds lucknawi), hence he must be an urdu-speaking indian......

there is a chance that he a person speaking hindi, talking about indian issues (plus kashmir) is not an indian...however, there is more of a chance of him being whom he says he is......

"As for evidence, I had already responded to that. Pakistan is accused of theft and of trying to hide his theft, there is no point in giving evidence to the thief. But others seem to be already convinced with the evidence provided."


......what you seem to be suggesing is that, as long as one accuses someone of theft, it is the responsibility of the thief to respond, not the responsibility of the accuser to provide the proof.......

....i am not sure if others are as convinced as you seem to think.....the interpol guy would not have stated that he has no evidence, while in pakistan.....i think india will lose the momentum it had initially gained, if it does not disclose the evidence, on the basis of which it has constructed the whole scenario around this terrorist act.....

what does india gain from not disclosing evidence.....when uk caught the subway terrorists.....it, immediately, released all the evidence......when usa was planning to bomb iraq, it even disclosed evidence that was totally a lie.....but it still wanted to present some evidence.....

now while pakis with flag t-shirts may delude themselves into thinking otherwise, nobody is buying the paki lies..

UK joins US pressure chorus



By M. Ziauddin


LONDON, Dec 24: Right on the heels of a stern alert delivered personally by Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullan, an equally stern advice has gone from Britain on the same day to Islamabad emphasising that after the Mumbai carnage the Indians were losing patience with Pakistan and that the UK was worried that lack of cooperation from the Gilani government could provoke some unwanted developments.

Expressing its appreciation of the difficulties facing Pakistan, Britain, however, is said to have made known its no-confidence in the middle-ranking officials of the ISI as it feared that these officers were not carrying out orders from the political leadership faithfully.

Britain is said to have suggested that if Pakistan started working on the prosecution of the arrested persons (of Jamaatud Dawa), it will make a big difference.

It is also said to have urged that some legal process was needed to be initiated against Dawa chief Hafiz Mohammed Saeed.

Diplomatic circles here said Britain had offered help in the investigation into the Mumbai attacks.

They said Britain had taken the position that evidence concerning terror activities launched from Pakistan in India was already there with Pakistan recalling that in 2005 Pakistan had publicly stopped ISI’s help to the militants in their attacks across the LoC.

However, according to these circles when Britain offered help in the efforts to rein in the jihadists, the ISI reportedly said it would continue to control Lashker-e-Taiba and would only move the LeT’s training camps from the LoC to farther inside Azad Kashmir.

It is claimed by these circles here that Britain believes that the training still continues in those camps as Pakistan does not have a proper and effective control of those training camps which need to be dismantled.

They said that in the opinion of the British government, Pakistan army’s policy of ‘coordination with and control of militant groups’ had not worked and needed to be replaced by a new policy.

Britain has also asked about any mechanism in place in Pakistan to know what the ISI is doing and to influence it. In this connection Britain offered that Pakistan could benefit from Britain’s experience of transparency and accountability of the agencies.

Britain is reported to have said that the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism at the Home Office would very much like to work with Pakistan to develop the counter-terrorism strategy of Pakistan and Britain.

Britain is said to be heavily dependent on inputs from Pakistan in regard to the counter-terrorism part of its own national security strategy.

However, Prime Minister Brown, it is said, was not satisfied with the work on counter-radicalisation and, therefore, coordination with Pakistan’s Ministry of Interior and FIA is being sought to be improved.Britain is also said to have sent an assessment of situation in Mohmand agency, Peshawar and Swat prepared by the British High Commission in Islamabad which has described the situation as ‘quite gloomy’.

Britain, it is said, accepted that Pakistan army’s counter terrorism capacity was limited, but was worried by the emphasis in training at the Staff College Quetta that tells that the enemy is India.

Britain is said to have also offered to help in capacity building but wants to know about Pakistan’s strategy and the entity which is driving the political/ comprehensive strategy in Fata and any single point of contact whom Britain can support financially.

Britain is said to believe that the Friends of Pakistan will want to know this when the Trust Funds are established for NWFP and Balochistan.

Britain is also said to have told Pakistan that it wants to see President Zardari and President Karzai taking strategic ownership of the border areas and that at the moment Pakistan’s strategy on Fata looked ad-hoc.

Britain is said to have also emphasised the need to formalise/institutionalise coordination between Pakistan and Afghanistan at the political/strategic level.

bubba:

Indians are not going to attack Pakistan or any targets there. That would be playing into the Pak military strategists who are looking for an excuse to get out of FATA and Waziristan mess. But they may take action on diplomatic front, such as closing consular office, recalling high commissioner and reducing diplomatic staff in Pakistan.

During the Gujral years, India dismantled its human intelligence operation in Pakistan. They may have rebuilt some in Afghanistan since then, although Pakistani propaganda about 16 consulates is just that, I have searched the internet and the only ones I can find are in Kabul, Kandhar, Mazar-e-Sharif and Herat(?).