The Mumbai Terror Apologists

Re: # 376

[Pakistanis are not fools]

You could have fooled me!

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375 Posted by tahmed32 on

tahmed,
you should first learn how to be honest in thinking... i gave you all that material so that you do not end up fooling yourself.. not me...

you don't know since when it is called India and for how long..... and somebody told you that it was Pakistan..... Do you know who lived in Pakistan then? Hindus... people who used to recite Vedas, Upanishads and who developed sanskrit.... Do you know patilputra and the university??? Do you know what is mean by being a Brahmin??? I told you that kautliya was a Brahmin.. but you need to know what being a Brahmin used to mean in the days of kautliya.... or theoretically even now...

perhaps you won't understand till i speak boldly...

Do this yourself and with your friends who do not know anything about history and who simply want to believe in whatever can protect their lies....

1. Check in wikipedia or anything else to know the time of Kautilya.... roughly around 350-300 BC

2. Now check this article on wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahajanapadas

the time period of Mahajanapadas is 700BC to 300 BC or earlier, not later....

check the are of India covered by these MahaJanpadas, all of it together was called AryaVarta.....

3. Now try to imagine that in 500Bc much before even Kautilya, Budhdha was born in Nepal, you know how far away it is from your Pakistan? Then check the history of Magadha/Patilputra/Kosala or whatever and history of Budhdha and Varanasi to understand what was there before Kautilya...


1, 2 and 3 will give your brain enough clues to hide your face in sand for at least a couple of hours....

After that, my dear friend, you can attempt to face truth again, in all its serinity.... think how can muslims get name of India to a land where slave mentality lives and hates the people who were known by the name of India???? Think out of 16 Mahajanpads how many Pakistan covers???

India was those people, those MahaJanpads, their generations prior to and after MahaJanpads, those Hindus, not the converted/coward slaves of Arabs... Al Beiruni, Ibn Sina, Al Kindi, they didn't learn anything from those converted Moslems who hate their own forefathers, they learned from those Brahmins/Hindus... Charaka, Kautilya, Shushrutha were Hindus.... those were people for whom India was known...



As a hindu of some sort I feel bad for muslims in Pakistan, you have been cheated double by your history/destiny, first you were converted by force and terror with rape/killing and all, and later you had to reject much better ideas to protect worse ones and had to diswon your own history, your own forefathers... what worse could have been done???

romair, we can skip those analytical details because given her goals, Pakistan's current strategy is the best and the most effective one. It shows that Pakistanis are not fools - as some Indians here seem to be convinced. They can change their goals (as all Indians here are pressing you to do), but that is not a matter of intelligence, but of preferences and values. And those, as you rightly pointed out, are for Pakistanis alone to decide!!

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Pinku bhai and dm ji

May I ask a question?

Is there something that makes Pakistan a bit unique? Or, is Pakistan, in your view, pretty much the same as all other Muslim countries, like Bangladesh, for example?

pinku #371: i ask you a simple yes/no question, and you avoid answering it, and instead start telling me what i think, toss in some AryaVicharias how much the persians despise islam, and generally beat around the sindhu bush. tsk..tsk...

Anyway, being a generous man, I will assume the answer to my question is "yes" but you are afraid that this was a trick question (after all, i did study just a few miles away from where kautliya got his education).

No trick question, my friend. Going back to #369, the point of my question was simply this - Contrary to what you said, it is what is now Pakistan that was known to everybody, and what is now India was considered a "backward area" by the civilized world - worthy not even of a separate name other than in association with the indus valley, i.e. what is now Pakistan.

My own preference would have been to retain the name India for what is now Pakistan and to tell you people to stop calling yourselves after our river and call yourselves Injunland or something. But if chaudhury rehmat ali (a fellow gujjar and a family friend) managed to get the name switched to Pakistan - that is fine with me. After all, a rose by any name smells just as sweet.

Regards #: "to let populations of India and Pakistan also choose out the side of the border they want to live in."

.......that would be a very good idea....much like europe...i believe jinnah, actually, bought land in simla (?) before the partition......and i believe he did not sell his properties in india, before partition (or after).....hence he seemed to have thought the above is what would happen, after all the partition dust settled....

......however, i am not sure if the relationship between the two countries has reached this level of trust.....

india being, by far, the largest country, would be the one which would have to initiate such an initiative....

eklavya/dost-mittar #: .....it is a tough call on whether the break up of pakistan would be good for india or not.....i used to think it would really benefit india.....however, now i am not too sure......

....if it leads to a destablized pakistan, then it, certainly, cannot benefit india......it will have four entities to deal with, rather than one......

on the other hand, if pakistan remains stable, then it may help india......it could deal, separately, with sind and punjab on its borders.....and it would not have to worry about nwfp and baluchistan, which would not border with india.......and these states would be weaker if separate......

....having said that, i think one of the best things that can happen to pakistan is it federates into four or more autonous units, which exist under one federation.....much like uae......it would actully strengthen pakistan not weaken it......

.....in fact, i think pakistan should form such a unit, now, with bangladesh.....

you are correct about bangladesh....they still support pakistan instead of india....at least in the cricket matches.......this is something i cannot understand.....since they would not exist and have independence, if india had not fought a war on their behalf......one would thing, they would adore india.....

dost-mittar #: ....i have heard the terrorist interview multiple times......i am quite a big believer in evidence, and do not like conspiracy theory..

.....the terrorist does have a slight punjabi accent....it could also be construed as a non-urdu accent, which could be of any language.....i did not notice a pushtoo accent......

.....however, his use of hindi words is quite detailed.....and he lays down his demands clearly....so one would have to say based on the available evidence, he is an indian.....to say otherwise, would be more of a conspiracy theory...

......interpol has, now, stated that india has not provided any evidence to them either...

india has caught two individuals, locally......i believe one of them has turned out to be someone who was, actually, an undercover agent for indian security forces.....however, i have not heard a public statement from india that any local indians are involved.....or were amongst the terrorists......or were working in the hotels....etc......

.....one would have to assume that indian security forces have quite a bit of information now......kasab must have given a lot of information........autopsies of the other dead terrorists must have given some information.....tracking the ammunition used must have provided information also....

....in such situations, it is very difficult to gather enough evidence, which will convict someone in court.....however, there is, usually, enough to put blame on some entity.....for example, kasab being a pakistan, on its own, has gotten pakistan involved......so evidence does put moral pressure on parties, even if no conviction occurs.....it sets up the public opinion.....

i think india should put all the evidence on the table as soon as possible......the indian media has raised qutie a bit of hype, and the public has bought, totally, into it.......

the indian govt., so far, had handled this very well (in my opinion)......however, now they will have to cater to the public and media opinion, for the elections......the easiest way to, totally, corner paksitan and put even more pressure on it, is to start putting all the evidence into the open....including an open cross examination of kasab...though i am not sure if it would be possible, if local indians are involved......

......complex terrorist attacks (like 9/11 or the mumbai attacks) tend to have a lot of entities attached to them......

#369 Posted by tahmed32 on December 23, 2008 5:51:23 am

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pinku #366 do you know where india got its name?
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and you think you know more about it???? and you think you know how it will affect what I am saying???

The name AryaVrat is what Aryans used to call India.

As per westerners the explaination is as below, though hindus themselves can give you much more than that....
In Sanskrit word Sindhu means a ocean-river. The Indus river was called Sindhu river and Greek and Arab/Persian people started calling people living around and east of Sindhu in Indian subcontinent as Indian or Hindu. Those people themselves used term AryaVrat and in times of MajaJanpads they used to start with AryaVrat and then sub-regions of it, like Magadha etc.. Even today at the time of YagyoPaveet ceremony or any other ceremony you have to give your region starting fromAryaVatra and then old sanskrit names of region where your "kul" family originally belonged to.

Do you know since when people know about India??

Now can you tell me what all you know about it and where you find Pakistan??? Don't try to find Pakistan and Islam everywhere, and if you do don't think you are close to truth.... and if you do, don't think you won't look illusioned to others....

Read on MahaJanpads and where they existed and when.... check Greek/Persian history since when they know of India... And don't feel happy that Persia is ruled by Islam now, you have more people there who despise Islam for what it did to their culture than in other muslim/Islamic countries...

eklavya #: still have not seen your analysis......can we assume that the problem is too difficult to provide any solution to.......

pinku #366 do you know where india got its name?

Re: # 330 Romair

Dear Genius of Kakul:

Even after being slapped every generation or two, you still don't get it, do you? No wonder, your country is such a mess.

First of all, any half-way decent 'consulting company' will walk away from an incorrigible client like you. No self-respecting consulting company would want to be associated with a sinking ship, and be a part of 'advising' them, since the most prescient advice would be to 'cool it, reform self and look to grow economically'. If the 'client' won't take this advice, the best will simply walk away.

You are a reckless fool if you think that the Pakistan Army can withdraw from FATA, put the NATO supply lines at risk, jeopardize the $15bn IMF lifeline and just sit back and fight a little war with India, and everyone will be happy ever after. You think that NATO will simply say, 'Uh-Oh! We can't fight anymore. Pack your bags and return!'. Perhaps, you didn't read my post #240.

NATO is itching to pound the hell out of the Taleban safe havens in FATA, and by walking away from it, the Pak Army will invite NATO in. After all, the Pak Army is doing this unpleasant FATA cleanup only under a NATO threat to do the job themselves. Can Pakistan fight NATO and India simultaneously? India knows this too - don't you think that India could use this to its own advantage at a time of its own choosing?

Do you know that NATO is looking to develop alternate supply routes via Central Asia and China to Afghanistan? That is a prudent thing to do even without the above scenario unfolding.

PS: Your 'local assistance' theory in Mumbai attacks may or may not be true. What matters is that the US and Britain are not accepting that non-state actors are not Pakistan's responsibility. They are convinced that the masterminds are from Pakistan and this time Westerners and Israelis (in fact, citizens of 22 countries) were killed.

"and if Kautilya was Brahmin and "

there is no if here, just a typo

"Kautilya was Brahmin"

#362 Posted by tahmed32 on December 23, 2008 4:54:08 am
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#360 Regards: OK, good to know we wont get bombed by India. How then do you propose to separate good pakis from bad pakis?

PS: Kautliya, btw, was from Taxila University, Pakistan. He is no doubt living happily ever after with 52 sacred cows in heaven.

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Only India was known to anybody, Pakistan was created by people who needed it for Islam and if Kautilya was Brahmin and if he knew you would write taxila as "Taxila University, Pakistan" he would have moved to Kerala instead.

#348 Posted by akcheema
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Re: # 347; harish mian
[[But Pakis still believe we are out to get them ]]

after reading more than a few of your compatriots' interacts here, are they completely unjustified in that paranoia?

Believe you me, with hardly any face to face interactions between the two peoples, forums like this are always going to be the take home messages for both sides ... I stop making excuses for my blunders, you stop making excuses for yours ... and we are all fine ... how about that?

as I have no disillusions about Pakistani involvement in Indian affairs, I have little to believe complete honesty from the Indian side either

]]

Indians take lot of time in doing anything, owing to their genetic lethargy and practical democracy.... So Indians are quite honest if they say that they hardly did anything wrong to Pakistan... But Pakistan doesn't have any chance to accept anything as their is false/planned victimhood..... Also Indians are not against Pakistan, they are worried about the ideology that creates Pakistan/Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia..... the ideology that want to separate kashmir.... It is quite stupid to assume that India with such difficult task at hand in 1947 and managing through democracy, would have had any time to get involved with Pakistan... All involvement of India even in Bangladesh was reactionary... they never had time to get involved with Pak in non-reactionary ways...

So the problem is with Pakistan,there is hardly anything that India caan do except to create an international environment where Pakistan be forced to become a normal state...


only thing that fragmentation of pakistan can bring is its denuclearization...

#343 Posted by akcheema on December 23, 2008 2:42:42 am
Re: # 342; eklavya
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because that would leave you with four/five very bitter states, with the underlying ideology intact, and they would keep niggling under the surface til they are strong enough, either as individual states or even together! to continue to do what the current ONE state is doing (as per your pov)

it is the underlying ideology that needs to be reformed and brought in line with the times ... or be prepared to face four or five Pakistan in the not too distant future ... simple!

have you not learnt anything from the Bangladesh experiment?!

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akcheema is right, breaking up pakistan gives only some time to others... it is reforming the ideology that is solution.... but it is very difficult... so the question is what to do to create an environment that the solution can slowly grow in that environment and solve the situation/ideology over time...

1. first thing is to get rid of nukes

2. second to increase intolerance of intolerant ideas of such idologies..... fatwas, terrorism, sharia should be rejected at global/international level.... this is tough because US lives on Saudi oil and won't let anybody do it..

2. Make pakistan a secular state..... better make it illegal for any state to follow one religion, you have to be secular..

4. is to promote education (not religious or islamic/madarsa ones, even if they are of any help in short term)

4. Get rid of religion altogether, no "word of God" except the universe or world that exists.... no meddling of religion in politics (very very difficult given the way church still trying to regain its importance by fooling people)