The Mumbai Terror Apologists

#441 Posted by dost_mittar

"I had said that Pakistan's crditibility in the world is zero, not its importance. As for its importance, it has never been more important and is perhaps uppermost in the minds of Obama, but uppermost is the sense of a huge headache and not as an asset."

I always find it funny that how loosely people use the world as if the US and the west is the world and rest of the people live on some other planet.
If credibility was the criteria in defining a country's place in the international affairs than the US has even less credibility in the world than perhaps even Afghanistan. The US has the lowest credibility even in the western world. Credibility is intangible. What is tangible is where you are and what you have. Indians love for Bush does not make him the most popular man in the world. Your line of argument is pure garbage.

The bigger headache for Obama is Iraq and then Afghanistan where the US armies are fighting and not Pakistan. Pakistan did not force the US fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US interest in Pakistan is getting the Pak army support to take care of fleeing and returning Taliban. Since the US is losing the Pak army's support, its headache in Afghanistan are going to grow. The drama in Mumbai seems like is backfiring and now the US is scrambling to tone down the rhetoric. The CIA chief and the Saudi FM were not in India for picnic and now as you say India is coming down from high pedestal it perched itself. I wonder it is the US CIA chief's order or the Saudis informed them of the consequences.

"India would have wanted to cooperate with Zardari although it knew that when it comes to Pakistan, Zardari counts for nought."

That is one more BS argument that you can only hear from Media inspired Indians. You deal with the foreign office in Pakistan no matter who the FM is or you deal with government. You send message to the government and no matter who the president wishes to confer with, what matters to you is what the response is.
India tried to play a game not knowing what the internal configuration in Pakistan is and sounds like they ended up eating crow.

This is unbelievable that after turning the heat up for almost 4 weeks Indians now are blaming Pakistan for responding.

About Indian status quo less said the better. Status quo always means you are putting off a problem for some other time. I guess that time has now come. The question is: is India ready to take the game to the logical conclusion or still wanna have a repeat of 2001 when after eight months of hostilities all it did was deliver Pakistan to the US.

India is following the same path because there is no one who can afford a war in the area. Too bad instead of dealing with the Problems, Indian inept, almost incompetent government ended up destroying whatever little was left to redeem from a bad situation.

KeeRoa#437:

How is it different from what I wrote in 310?

Romair#428:

I had said that Pakistan's crditibility in the world is zero, not its importance. As for its importance, it has never been more important and is perhaps uppermost in the minds of Obama, but uppermost is the sense of a huge headache and not as an asset.

I think your analysis of India is incorrect because you have not properly specified her goals vis-a-vis Pakistan which are to maintain a status quo including in Kashmir. Since, this status quo is not acceptable to Pakistan, all disturbance to the equilibrium are initiated by it and India is generally in a reactive mode. Eklavya would want to change this and Indian policy more proactive but he is not in charge yet.

India would have wanted to cooperate with Zardari although it knew that when it comes to Pakistan, Zardari counts for nought. India's reaction to Mumbai was to initially make a lot of noises although the public/media reaction was much more hawkish than the govt.'s. However, the govt. reaction is now quite sober while the Pakistani official reaction is becoming more and more hawkish. It would appear as if Pakistan feels frustrated that its acts had not had the desired effects of India launching an attack which would have let it off the hook in its war on terror. While war would be counterproductive for India, I think that the govt. would have no choice but to act if only to not risk losing the next election in April. This is why I think that Pakistan would soon launch another Mumbai type act to force India to act.

"I did all my schooling in India (in the most reviled state of Gujarat) and there was not an iota of derogatory references to Pakistan. Even if Jinnah was not really idolized, he was portrayed as an erudite pragmatist who successfully managed to convince the powers that were that partition - however painful - was the only way out."

This is absolutely true..........frankly speaking nobody cared about Pakistan in our school........Pakistan was never a reference point in our culture or any point of existence.........and we were all brought up on honky-dory history books written by marxist authors who never talked about Islamic jehad inspired violence on hindus......

that is why most of indian hindus are gullible fools who cannot comprehend the true import of the Islamist nonsense from some Pakistanis...

HP sahib,

I wish that we attack falsehood rather than personalities.

I don't want to know about Arif Mohammed Khan's character. All I asked is if the article has any element of truth.

If it does not, I am happy.

Arif Mohammed Khan is known liar and a tout of BJP. Marrying a Hindu girl does not give him a license to lie.

I usually find Barkha Dutt a model of dhimmitude, but feel that for a change she is spot on, in this piece:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=Hom ePage&id=157549be-0d7d-4773-a3c2-20be051b8529&MatchID1=4874&TeamID1= 1&TeamID2=3&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1229&PrimaryID=4874&Headl ine=Why+war+isn%e2%80%99t+an+option

The Mumbai attacks may well be the means chosen by the Pakistani military to claw its way back to power, regain some of its recently lost popularity, and give itself an excuse to discontinue going after the Taliban loonies. By reacting with missile strikes now, India will only play into the hands of the elements who are its biggest enemies.

#435 kcs:

..and this is in the propah schools. The only good thing about it- extremely tolerant when you compare it with the syllabus of some madarsas :-)

An article by Arif Muhammed Khan, former Union Minister of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakistani_textbooks_build_hate_culture _agains t_India/articleshow/3898659.cms

I don't believe all media stories (all the more so if they were authored by politicians) just like that, so I would like my enlightened Pakistani brothers on this forum to confirm if this is indeed true.

I did all my schooling in India (in the most reviled state of Gujarat) and there was not an iota of derogatory references to Pakistan. Even if Jinnah was not really idolized, he was portrayed as an erudite pragmatist who successfully managed to convince the powers that were that partition - however painful - was the only way out.

Re: # 432

S3, first things first!

(1) Only an idiot will think that rational individuals are running Pakistan’s policies versus India. It is being run by individuals who are already convinced inside that THEY know what is in Pakistan’s “best interest� and THEY will make sure THOSE “best interests� are served – no matter what.

(2) Only an idiot will think that Pakistani establishment will EVER defer to the civilian outfit. Only an idiot will think so because even the civilian outfit is not that ignorant – or it would not change its tune so easily.

(3) Only an idiot will think that having accomplished (in its own mind) nuclear “parity�, Pakistani establishment will not try to take advantage of it to carry out an active campaign for the dismemberment of India.

In its own mind, the Pakistani establishment is convinced that India is a SOFT country – about ripe and ready to be broken up because it is not a believer in anything because it is not a believer, period.

All negotiations with the devious Pakistanis are a waste of time. What India needs to do is to develop an effective nuclear shield (analogous to the SDI defenses the US pursued during the cold war days) and outspend the devious Pakistanis – so either the devious cry “uncle�, or the devious Pakistanis break up like the Soviet Union, or the devious Pakistanis go bankrupt.

Re: # 431 Romair.... Both countries are in trouble. We have more and "better" nulkes than india as I read so we have advantage in atom war, so it is possible and winnable.

But atombomb is over rated and like monster. It destructive capacity is limited. USA rumsfield said their study shows some 5 million people will be killed in Indo Pak war. May nuclear disease will kill say 10 more millions. All numbers are insignificant. Mopulation increase on 2 to 3 years will be much more.
As both countries on verge of trouble by communists in India and Talibans in Pakistan. # states of India gone communist and over 30% of pakistan is controlled by nongovt people. The country which can preserve itself withoout braeking will prevail. Neither country will like to take over other. Not it is game of patience and who will last long. We have sea of people so both countries are industrictible. Good night. It is good you are taking Indians to school and teaching basics of things may teach them little management and mr. Z also.

Romair,

Thanks to the XMas break, I have a few minutes to dabble in this armchair politics.

""this is something Pakistani thinkers have not understood.....they still want to go head to head with India......when in fact, they need to change their strategy.....previously a 5 foot tall Pakistan was playing basketball against a 6 foot tall India......now India is 7 foot tall and growing taller....(while Pakistan will start shrinking towards 4 foot, if it doesn't quickly change its outdated strategies, vis-a-vis India)......""

Does that hypothetical strategist realize is that is exactly what happened because of his bad strategic advice.

Let has destroyed the Kashmir cause.
When the cross border infiltration stopped, Kashmiri Indians benefited. They could see their cousins in PoK. New trade routes were opening up. The recent non violent protests were giving tangible results. Now its back to square one.

Lets not argue about "proof" OK..If the British, Americans & even the ever neutral Swedes are convinced, and have publicly stated that there is a Pakistani hand in this; its more than enough. Of course, when you start playing "defence lawyer" & try to tease out what is REAL proof, we are going to go nowhere. Heck, even Blago's lawyer is saying he has a "good case"!:)

Its Pakistan on the defensive, not India. The only reasonable option that was left to mend fences with India. To his credit, the Zardari administration seemed to be doing just that. If there was no terrorist attack, FMs were working towards a tangible deal. He must be very disappointed.

Well, at least we know, that the Pak army is not going to let the civilian govt mend fences with India. It wants to wind down the unpopular war on the western front . As long as it can raise the Indian bogeyman, they will be well funded.

The Al-Qeeda/ militant nexus doesn't want Indo-Pak rapprochement. Doesn't matter what Pakistanis believe, those "freedom fighters" are terrorists in the eyes of the whole world. There is no such thing like a "good" freedom fighter & a "bad" freedom fighter.

Of course, "there is no question of war". Thank God India has a sane man like Manmohan Singh as PM. World opinion is on India's side. The the GoP, world opinion is vital; otherwise the politicians & generals wont be able to send their kids to American schools.

I hope this strategist realizes that his nuts are in a vice. Thanks to his policies, Kashmir is nowhere near "freedom". India is still growing economically. Pakistan is tethering on bankruptcy. Can someone sane tell Pakistani leaders that the war of the 1000 cuts is killing Pakistan?!

Eklavya #: "Romair, sure, go ahead. Why not?"

....there are two paradigms shifts that have occurred in indo-pak relations, which neither country has adjusted to.....

.....up til a decade or so ago, economic growth was paksitan's advantage over india, and military power was india's advantage over pakistan...

.....pakistan's historical economic growth rate was, traditionally around 40% or so higher than india's till the early 90s.....this allowed pakistan to spend, %-wise more money on its armed forces, than india and to keep a 3:1 balance (which is what is needed for conventional defence)......

.....india was a much stronger country, militarily, still....and it knew that if it had to, it could defeat pakistan in a long drawn out war...which it could.....

......however, now, things have turned around.....india's economic growth is higher than pakistan's.....this combined with india's large size has now about to take india out of pakistan's league in int'l affairs.....this is something pakistani thinkers have not understood.....they still want to go head to head with india......when in fact, they need to change their strategy.....previously a 5 foot tall pakistan was playing basketball against a 6 foot tall india......now india is 7 foot tall and growing taller....(while pakistan will start shrinking towards 4 foot, if it doesn't quickly change its outdated strategies, vis-a-vis india)......

......in case of india, its strategies are still based on assuming that it can put enough military pressure on pakistan, to, eventually intimidate it......however, now india and pakistan, are in military partiy, due to nuclear deterence......

.......india thus has no military superiority over pakistan...regardless of how many tanks, aircraft carriers, fighter-bomber aircraft it purchases.....nor will it ever have any military superiority over pakistan, in the future...

..hence the one thing india should not do, is to every take any disagreement/conflict etc. with pakistan down the military route......it is a route on which it cannot win.......and will thus, eventually, have to backtrack....this will look like a defeat.....this is what happened when india piled up its troops a few years ago, and then withdrew......

......thus, why go down a path, which one knows to be dead end......in this crisis, india should not have introduced anything related to military, in the equation.....this includes surgical strikes, bombings etc....pakistan replied in kind.....the rest of the world got worried.....and india started seeming like the aggressor.....and that too in the one area where it cannot aggress.....

......this is step one for india, in my opinion......devise a new paradigm to handle/destroy pakistan, which has no military aspect attached to it......

the rest in upcoming replies....

"comment as an indian strategist, on what i think india should do to achieve its goals........"

Romair, sure, go ahead. Why not?

The basics to keep in mind:

(1) For India, changing any policy with regard to Kashmir or Muslims anywhere is off the table.

(2) India believes that Pakistanis either don't want to make any change with respect to India or are unable to do so, and that this situation in Pakistan will not change. So Pakistanis will continue to attack India, and will continue to do all they can to destroy India, without any let up. Anytime between two attacks or anti-India efforts that Pakistan has is the time Pakistan uses to prepare for those attacks or anti-India efforts.

(3) There can be no question of trusting anything anybody in Pakistan says with respect to India.

Importance of mumbai attacks.

The targets in mumbai attacks were the westerners and the jews, carried out by kashmir jihadis, as subcontractors to alquida.

This is an activity far more on the global jihadic agenda than anything related to kashmir.

This is more in tune with the afghan operations where more and more punjabis are going to fight. The latest lahore bombing is another example where at last pakistanis are responding to teh predator attacks as being teh same as paki army attacks. The alhore attack, coming closely after a predator attack on punjabi taliban is revealing and indicates that paki jihadis are uniting. The pounjabi, the kashmiri and the alquida are uniting, and is a good thing for the world.

dost-mittar #: " these agencies continue to feed the monster even after it has turned into a frankenstein.....However, this is not my comment on the Lahore bombing situation. And, no, Pakistan does not have to prove to Indians but it has to prove it to outsiders.'

...whenever i comment on this site, i do not state my personal opinions.....unless i specifically add the phrase, "in my opinion,"......i may actually disagree with what i am arguing at a personal level.....

....however, if one truly wants to analyze, understand and argue int'l dynamics, strategies etc., one has to, totally, set aside, one's one opinions and motivations etc.....this is what is done in military wargaming scenarios......one party is made the enemy forces......and their job is to, totally, think like the enemy.......in certain us excercise, they actually (used to) dress like soviets, and behaved like them also......

......unfortunately, this is missing on this site.....everyone is too emotionally caught up in whatever they say......thus, intelligent objective discussions are not possible on conflict resolution, military gaming etc.......

......the only person whom i have run into, who i can feel is able to, totally, disengage his personal views from his analyses is eklavya.......ironically, he is the one person, who personally, feels pakistan should be destroyed......though he is able to keep that out of (most of) his analysis.....

........please take a look at what you are stating......and compare it to india's strategic goals.......what is the indian govts.' strategic goal in this crisis:

- is it to, totally, disband any militant outfit in pakistan
- is it to, totally, annihilate pakistan
- is it to win the next election
- is it to stop terrorism in india
- is to ensure that pakistan's options on kashmir - both militantly or through un - are totally turned to zero

........now, is india achieving its objectives throught the means it is using......was it in a stronger position one day after the attack, internationally, or is it in a stronger position now......

......is pakistan's position in the int'l community, truly, zero, vis-a-vis terrorism.....or is pakistan one of the main countries in that the world, and specifically the usa is relying on to fight terrorism.....

.....if it is zero, then why did the un's terorism committee recently give pakistan a clean chit......why is usa trying to ensure that pakistan keeps its troops on the western front.....why is the usa proposing huge amounts of aid to pakistan.......why did china recently give a subtle statement in support of pakistan....why did the interpol secretery general say india has not provided any evidence to interpol.....keep in mind that interpol has 186 (?) member countries.....

......interestingly, indian govt. should try to analyze why pakistan, apparently, itself told china to not veto the un resolution against JuD.......

........in think the indian govt. is losing the initiative it had gained initially......i think it made a mistake of pushing the military option so strongly.......knowing fully well that this option is not viable in a nuclear scenario....and is thus a dead end.....i stated this a few years ago, also, when india piled its troops on the border......

........i think it missed a trick in dealing with zardari and co., who actually wanted to go after these groups.....but now, with so much talk of miltiary attacks from india, are in no political position to do so now......

......i also think the indian govt. stepped ahead of the proof it had, when it, immediately, piled up everything on pakistan......this we will still have to wait on......if india is, deliberately, holding back proof then it maybe a good decision.....if it doesn't have anything, beyond kasab or it points in other directions, i think india could get stuck.......

........in any case, the main aim of any strategy should be to achieve one's aims.......not to, merely, show one's anger......achieving one's aims, in many cases, may not even involve the most ethical paths......it may involve contradictory stands (i.e. india asking for a un security counsel resolution, while it is, itself, in violation of 12 on kashmir....)......

......on the other hand, if a country has enough military power, it can, simply bomb the crap out of other countries, with or without rules......like us did in iraq.....

......india has huge advantages over pakistan.....size, military, economic, int'l recognition, political system etc........yet it has not been able to utilize them efficiently..... .most of the times pakistan has, "lost" to india have been due, more to its own internal mistakes, rather than any brilliant strategic actions from india.....

in that sense, i think, for a long time, india was in the paradigm that if worse came to worse, it could militarily beat up pakistan in a long war.......which it could.....however, now with nukes, this option is gone.......yet i think india's strategic thinkers have not adjusted their strategy to this reality......

their strategy needs to center around some other means to achieve their goals, vis-a-vis pakistan......i have yet to see any other strategy to achieve the list of goals i stated above that india may want to achive......including in this crisis.....

once again, my aim is to have an objective discussion.....not to defend or pursue any personal or emotional goals.......in fact, i would be more than happy to comment as an indian strategist, on what i think india should do to achieve its goals........