World Bank Help For Pakistan’s Education – A Poisoned Chalice?

Re: # 88
publi...
Is it much different from Talibs?...they want to destroy modern education system, but will not hesitate to use FM Radio etc...which is not picked up straight from KoRun etc...

you said,"But all serious academics know that what matters is not how many papers are written but how good these papers are."i would like to augment this with the following;re;
dawn Sunday jan 18 2009 not an ideal goal you have said,"On the other hand logic and science are universal-everyone will agree that 2+2=4,or that water can be shown to be a composite of hydrogen and oxygen."with the above in view, i just want to illustrate something on similar lines which happened a number of years ago-at the BMSI located in karachi."two co-research workers i knew, post graduate students to be exact, were preparing to present their papers at an afternoon seminar, that week.one of them had found just the piece of scientific research work bibliography; a monograph, from the library.that piece supported precisely a point made in their research discussion.his partner rejected it.his objection was that he did not care for the person who had written the monograph.he belonged to an inferior caste that was reason enough for him to discard his work.he would rather that his own research work would make no impact as a result."
now we see more and more international diverse names in science and research, in topics which are bound to get interconnected in a greater way.does that mean some bias will cause a number of people to give up chunks of interconnected scientific facts and figures?irrespective of caste, color and creed some other non-biased people will take up this scientific information technology for their own benefit.good for them!

The majority of Muslims in Pakistan do not practice Islam. The ones that claim to be Muslims are closer to Hinduism and Sikhism and their values resemble those who live in the Indian sub-continent more then any other Muslims living in other parts of the world.
No intention of persuading anyone, just want to share my perspective.

Re: # 86
pro-musla...
Is it? Pakistan is home for persis, indians, buddhists...!!!
Gujrat is Gujrat....why it has to be like slave to arab beduinism like musla states of Pakiland? My question is, in what sense, Pakland is not an Islamic state? When a state declares the arab beduinism (Islam) as the guiding principle of the country, what can you say about such country?

Re: # 90
Hey, I never said that by rejecting an Islamic State, Pakistanis want a secular one. But I think on the whole, they are ready to settle for a democracy with a constitution that insists on calling Pakistan an Islamic Republic. It's a clever eye-wash, but my point is, in religious matters, most Pakistanis are more okay with eye-washes than the "real thing." The jihadis here, like tahir and co., will once again be left sucking on Saudi lemons.

All right prohuman thanks for answering my questions.

If I were to be completely frank with you I would have to say that I feel there may be an element of wishful thinking in what you have stated.

I suspect that most Pakistanis if given the bald choice between a secular state and an Islamic one would opt for an Islamic one any day. In fact secularism seems to be almost like a dirty word from what I have read.

Moreover my impression is that on issue like free speech for instance they are not ready yet to accept that people should have the freedom to criticize say the character of muhammad, or even to criticize some aspect of Islam( not as wrong interpretation but being wrong as such) etc.

However it appears from your post that you yourself may actually want them to be secular and pro free speech.

That I think is important for the future of Pakistan.

Re: # 88
Nope. A mejority of Pakistanis follow the Berelvi school of thought. Religion to them though exhibitionistic, remains non-political. They are not looking for an Islamic State, they're just looking for oppurtunities to hold their naats, quwallies, niazs, et al. The Saudi-backed Wahabi minority (that is always up for this elusive "Islamic State"), already thinks most Pakistanis are kafirs. This hasn't changed much in how the mejority think. So there is criticism of religion, but it's a criticism of what is the right Islam and what is not. Of course, nobody would want to know that they've been lied to about their religious history for 1400 years. Let them fight among themselves, I say. The synthasis can be positive.

prohuman, forgive me for pushing you on this but when you say

" I am convinced a mejority of Pakistan do not want the kind of an Islamic State offered by the likes of the Taleban, Jamat-e-Islami, etc"

doesn't that leave open the possibility that they do want an Islamic state as opposed to a secular one , just not the type wanted by Taliban and JuI ?

For instance would the majority want free and open criticism of Islam to be allowed in that state or would they want blasphemy laws etc?

Re: # 85
Yes, I am a Pakistani and I am convinced a mejority of Pakistan do not want the kind of an Islamic State offered by the likes of the Taleban, Jamat-e-Islami, etc. Why do you think the religious parties promising an Islamic State keep getting routed in the elections?

Re: # 83
Nkg,
Stop babbling incoherent paranoid Hindu nonsense. Pakistan is anything but an “Islamic State.� It’s merely a volatile feudal set-up trying to work itself as a democracy. It has 5 ethnicities, many Islamic sects, Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Budhists and Sikhs. Any attempt to impose an Islamic State will either be a farce (Zia-ul-Haq), or doomed to failure. All this talk about Islamic State is just nonsense.
There is as much “Islam� in Swat and FATA as there is “Hinduism� in Gujrat in India. Go fetch.

so prohuman may I assume that you are either a Pakistani or are in physical contact with Pakistanis and the majority of those don't want an Islamic state ?

Re: # 82
Media? Lol. No, sir, as far as the media is concerned we are already on the brink of some glorious Islamic Revolution. Trusting the media would be like saying "Amen" to all the cyber jihadis that seem to gather on this site. Astakhfarullah!

Re: # 77
tahir...
Pakistan is indeed an islamic state...what more islamic you want in pakistan...copying SWAT/NWFP model everywhere in Pakistan?...that may create large amount of diplomatic isolation, and the trouble is more and more people like roamair,hp etc...who are half human/half musla, will create trouble elsewhere. The way europe is facing now from migrant muslas, who love islam but do not like to live in islamic environment, i.e. islamic countries....
BTW, do you feel in this era, if pakistan follows islamic principles strictly (specialy barbarism like jihad etc...), people will sit on the fence watch this drama? don't feel that couple of pirated nukes can save you...
Afghans, under Talibs followed that. It had taken them nowhere and lot of people died out of starvation....

"Most Pakistanis are weary of the whole damn deal about the concept"

prohuman are you speaking from direct personal knowledge or are you relying on some other indirect source of knowledge(media etc) ?

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Q: By the way, what are the sources for your idiotic accusations?

Ans:

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311

Re: # 42
The whole spiel about an “Islamic State� is such hog-wash. Most Pakistanis are weary of the whole damn deal about the concept. All that bull about “going back to the golden age of the 4 Rightly guided caliphs,� can give hardons only to the idiots who actually believe in the lies Muslims have been told about their past for last thousand years or so.
Tahir, when you say you are trying for an Islamic State, I take it that you are looking to smear your fellow Pakistanis with deeds based on pure fiction i.e. Islamic History that was taught to you at school and the so-called “authentic hadidhs.� Yea, right.

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Re: # 76

I don't know the western molestors you've named; as for Prophet Muhammad (saw), you've been condemned to stand in opposition to God and His prophets.

By the way, what are the sources for your idiotic accusations?

Perish in your umpteenth reincarnation, worshipper of the naked bapu who slept with his niece and....well, never mind.

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While I respect Dr. Hoodbhoy immensely and value his opinions greatly, I do think that his criticism of Dr. Ata-ur-Rahman is overdone in Pakistan's context. For the first time in the nation's history, Dr. Rahman succeeded in getting tremendous focus and major funding increases for higher education in Pakistan. As evident from the results, there has been a significant increase in the numbers of universities and highly-educated faculty in Pakistan. There have also been some instances of abuse of incentives, opportunities and resources provided to the academics. The quality of some of the institutions of higher learning can also be enhanced significantly. But overall, I would have an Ata-ur-Raman in charge of education rather than Mir Hazar Khan Bijrani, the current education minister.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 70
"gandhi is even lower than that child rapist prophet you worship"

I know who inspires you to utter nonsense. You always utter nonsense about God's chosen way for mankind.

ChowQ let you die your hundredth death and now you're reborn as Arjun 23!

Are you a boy or a girl in this life, or something in between?

Grow up and recognise those around you in this world.

Who do really respect; just curious?

#58 Posted by majumdar

"it needs be reiterated that the great man's mother tongue was Gujarati/Cutchi and not Urdu, where he was not very comfortable."

May I add one more jewel to the crown of this great man?

His grandfather was Poonja Gokuldas Meghji a caste Hindu. This grand old man must have had the vision for his would be grandson as the founder of a Pure land and to facilitate this great deed, he must have converted to Islam to clear his path.

58 Posted by majumdar
" things would never have come to this pass and India wud never have got a chance to intervene."

Point by point you are explaining that the partition of Pakistan was the making of the rulers of that country and yet you want to declare that India is the culprit.

Imagine the plight of the neighbouring country when the entire population of one country flows into it and throws the system out of gear there. You turn to the bigger countries to express your grievance and they could shoulder you. You can not drive the refugees back because you know that they have nowhere to go.

Your system was corrupt and you paid the price for that. You did not respect your citizens and implied that they did not speak your language. You forced your language on them when you knew that they had their distinct culture and language. In fact you did not accept them at all. If it would have been possible for you, you would perhaps imposed Jazia tax on them. Do you treat your Mohajirs well?

Now talking of India. When India knew that you were falling under your own weight, what was wrong in relishing the fact that you are being relieved of the responsibility of guarding two borders with a war mongering country?

#66 Posted by majumdar
"I think you MUST show the Mahatma's true colours. "

We in India regard Gandhiji as a great person who brought the entire Indian masses together in the fight against the British. Whatever the hype created during the independence struggle and immediately thereafter, an average Indian does not axalt him to the status of any prophet. The nation is grateful to them as much as they are to leaders like Netaji, Khan Saheb, Lalaji, Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev, and other pageful of leaders.

Our conviction is that Gandhiji's non-violence was greatly supplemented by the aggressive actions by the great patriots which made the rulers bleed white.

If one takes some time out to ponder over what Gandhiji gained out of all that he did for his motherland, one would generate instant respect for him.

Gandhiji died for going out of the way to help Muslims of Pakistan. No Muslim in Pakistan has got any respect for him for what he did for him. They would only idolize MAJ because he played the Muslim card and became the head of the Government in Pakistan. Ambedkar is idolised by the backward caste for he upheld the cause of those people. Nobody remembers Gandhiji for what he did for upliftment of the dalits. Non backward caste people hate him for being too considerate for dalits, at the cost of other classes.

For all his ideas which appeared pervert to many people, Gandhiji was a selfless saint and the best example of a Patriot. If muslims don't respect him, it is an example of their ungratefulness. If Dalits hate him, it is the height of their ignorance.

Let us not forget that todays vibrant democracy that that is India owes it to this great FAQIR who with all his qualification and capabilities lived and died for India.

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Re: # 66
"I think you MUST show the Mahatma's true colours. You must serve the cause of Truth much as another friend Yasser once did on chowk."

Well, I need to ask Laddu/NGK/Ajaya/Arjun and others permission; so highly regarded are these personalities.

Thanks.

Re: # 67
"I was expecting a bombshell though."

Why would you expect that; I'm not the Taliban!

Fianlly, you are attempting to seek the truth and live up to your name.

#62 Posted by tahir

Thanks for clarification tahir mian, I was expecting a bombshell though.

In fact I got curious because this term was used as a salutation to MAJ and you did not seem to mind it.

Thanks once again.

Tahir mian,

I have no wish to slander the Prophet (pbuh) but I have no control over those of my compatriots/co-religionists who wish to do so. But still, irrespective of what Hindoos on chowk do or dont, I think you MUST show the Mahatma's true colours. You must serve the cause of Truth much as another friend Yasser once did on chowk.

Regards

Re: # 64

Thanks for understanding; truth must prevail.

If its any consolation to you, I live by the Indus too!

Please ask those who malign Islam (I mean ChowQies) unashamedly, to STOP or I'll expose the 'Great Soul' completely.

How dare they accuse Prophet Muhammad (saw) of perversion? Haven't they figured out who Bapuji really was?

Shanti for those who want Shanti.

:)

Tahir mian,

Re:63

If it is of any consolation to you, many of us Indians/Hindoos are heartily ashamed of the (alleged) Mahatma.

Regards

Reproduced for Majumdar;

"It turns out that the answer, according to Gandhi, is NEVER. During World War II, Gandhi penned an open letter to the British people, urging them to surrender to the Nazis.

Later, when the extent of the holocaust was known, he criticized Jews who had tried to escape or fight for their lives as they did in Warsaw and Treblinka. “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife,� he said. “They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.�

"There’s an old saying that had the Brits been Nazi’s, Gandhi would’ve been a lampshade. Macabre as the humor might be, it underscores a key reason for Gandhi’s success with passive, non-violent resistance."

Re: # 60

Since you ask humbly (let me assume that pleeeease), yes PBUH (peace be upon him) is used for Muhammad (pbuh) for a very good reason explained in the Qur'an.

Proof:

Verily, God and His angels bless the Prophet: [hence,] O you who have attained to faith, bless him and give yourselves up [to his guidance] in utter self-surrender! (33:56)

Just for the sake of understanding fellow man better (and not through BBC/CNN), do go through a translation of the (you guessed it) the Qur'an.

Do let me know if you wish to read the Book in your mother tongue; I just might be able to send you a copy.

By the way, Muslims use PBUH exclusively for Muhammad (pbuh) and it is abbreviated as SAW (in Arabic: May Allah bless him and grant him peace).

Life is full of suprises.

------------------

Then there are many more (a sample is given below) if you search the word 'blessings':

For, all who pay heed unto God and the Apostle shall be among those upon whom God has bestowed His blessings: the prophets, and those who never deviated from the truth, and those who [with their lives] bore witness to the truth, and the righteous ones: and how goodly a company are these! (4:69)

Whoever rallies to a good cause shall have a share in its blessings;103 and whoever rallies to an evil cause shall be answerable for his part in it: for, indeed, God watches over everything. (4:85)

Pervez,

You are a reasonable man, thank god the world bank is not supporting infrastructure development for education in swat, where mostr girls schools are blown up and others are cionverted to madrassas. Thsi is going to happen in all through pakistan. At present schools are convertedd to cattel shed by the local zamindars.

Pakistan is a case of failure of all instittutions. I recal that for the bank jobs they made a university degree compulsary. Then they made the madrassa schooling as equivalent to degree and now all jihadis have got bank jobs. The same with phds, shortly the mullah will be equivalent to a phd.

Nothing can save pakistan, it has to be resized for any inprovement.

"Thanks to MAJ (pbuh) they have already been separated from you."

Tahir mian, please don't take me amiss. Just for academic interest. This 'pbuh' is used only to describe the prophet. I remember having read it somewhere. Can you please correct me?

Tahir #45

"Your collective gift to mankind is the unkind usurer 'banya'. "

This should have come from you when at the helms of affairs in your country is Mr ten per cent.

Why keep on rubbing the same lamp of Qu'ran when you are a bunch of antithesis of Qu'ran? Why you are so worried about Hindus when your dirty hands are already full?

Tahir mian,

Had Pakistan struck to the Lahore Resolution of 1940 while finalising the Constt and did not allow army rule to undermine democracy, things would never have come to this pass and India wud never have got a chance to intervene.

Btw, I dont think MAJ (pbuh) ever described Bengali as a languagae of Hindoos, his only concern was to have Urdu as a common language to create a sense of nationhood. And lest one accuse him of partiality it needs be reiterated that the great man's mother tongue was Gujarati/Cutchi and not Urdu, where he was not very comfortable.

Regards

Re: #56

A new opposition grew after MAJ controversially described Bengali as the language of Hindus!

India invested heavily into this long-awaited project.

One invariably falls into the same trap one lays for others.

Tahir mian,

That is held to be one of the great man's few mistakes. But still there was enuff time to correct that mistake.

Mainly it was Ayub, Yahya and Bhutto who were the main villains on Pak side and Mujib (possibly goaded by the treasonous Hindoo professors of Dhaka University) the main culprit on the Bengal side.

Regards

Re: # 54

"How did MAJ (pbuh) separate E and W Pak?"

I never meant MAJ did that. But hell, in a way he too added to the drama by decalaring the language of the creative elites the 'national language' as he landed in Dacca!

"Jinnah, the Governor General, on his visit to East Pakistan in March 1948, without taking the East Wing leaders into confidence, declared Urdu the language of just two per cent of the population, as the national language of Pakistan at a public meeting in Paltan Maidan, Dacca. This was done in the hope of national integration but it was taken amiss and misunderstood by the Bengalis as a move to suppress their language and culture."

You tell me!!??

Tahir mian,

How did MAJ (pbuh) separate E and W Pak. He created an independent united Pakistan, it was his successors who undid his great work.

Regards

Re: # 52

"Thanks to MAJ (pbuh) they have already been separated from you."

No, PIECES BE UPON THEM i.e. Yahya, Bhutto, and those before them, for separting East from West Pakistan--with a little push from (the likes of you know) across the Wagha.

:(

Chalta,

Re: 46

What you have presented is the conventional financial system. I was trying to present the Islamic system as I best understand it.

Tahir mian,

We're working on it, now only if Laddu and his ilk would leave us alone.

Thanks to MAJ (pbuh) they have already been separated from you.

Regards

Re: # 47

Ich kann Deutsches seit dem Fuhrer auch verstehen, das soviel von Ihnen Völker, nämlich, Rassismus und Steuerfreakishness geborgt wird.

أنا يستطيع Ù?همت ألمانية أيضا منذ [Ù?وهرر] يقترض كثيرا من أنت [Ù?ولكس], أيّ, عنصرية وتحكم [Ù?ركيشنسّ].

khurram sahib, I am not gonna read the link..can you sum up the savings point stuff. How do i get liquidity, do I use savings points like Burger king dollars and buy big macs at places where they take such currency? and how do i protect my downside? i.e. if i lend to you in dollars but earn profit/interest in savings points...how do I preserve the time value of my principal...do I get that back or do I get it back in more savings points

Re: #46,47 Dash_dot, Chaltahai,

Whether profit-sharing is implicit interest is an interesting discussion.

However, take a look at the links in post #7 & #9.
Here is a model of interest-free lending that does not involve profit-sharing either.

Dear Dr. Hoodbhoy,

My name is Jonathan Penton and I publish www.UnlikelyStories.org, an electronic magazine of literature, art, culture, and political opinion. We were focused entirely on literature from 1998 to 2004, and began running essays of political and cultural thought (as well as visual art, music, and film) over four years ago. I would be very pleased to reprint your article, "World Bank Help For Pakistan’s Education – A Poisoned Chalice?" in an upcoming issue.

If you\'d like to learn more about us and what we do, our incredibly wordy mission statement is at http://www.unlikelystories.org/mission.shtml .

Thank you for your time,
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org/

Re: # 46 no w chaltahai can you explain this to our islamic radical, rihat is some plain and simple terms/lanaguge. Maybe you should arby language since that is what he understands (T)

MAJ you model below is silly...the loan is secured by assets and otehr collateral, equity capital is not. the risk premium on equity investments is higher and thus...giving the lender equitable return to that of an equity holder's dividend is stupid. if the company goes bankrupt, the loan holder is first up. but he has secured his principal based on the asset value of the collateral. Equity holder may get nothing.....so if the ROI is 20% for the company, the disbursement, whether a flat rate per your model to the lender or the dividends back to teh equity holders cannot be at par. the liability i.e. the loan will drive down the equity value of the company.

Now non-practising green-card holder Hindus will teach us how to bank.

Your collective gift to mankind is the unkind usurer 'banya'.

Re: # 28
'If the islamists think there is a free lunch available, and that this "interest free thing" is really interet free they are living in cloud cuckoo land.'

The Qur'an is precise in stating that 'usurers are touched by satan' because these (businessmen in suits) insist that 'trading is similar to usury, whereas Allah has permitted (legitimate/halal) business but not the multiplication of wealth through usury', this creation of fiat money.

Wake up before all your hopes are dashed.

Re: # 27
'Almost every bank in Pakistan has now seperate section of Islamic Riba-Free Banking.'

The same bank that fleeces us through usury cannot--on any moral ground--open up a section that promises 'riba-free' banking. It is like mixing a drop of urine with clean water meant for ablution and insisting that it is still ritually clean (unless one is Morarjee Desai)!

Down with the financiers of global instability and misery.

PS: I hope you're not a banker.

Re: # 23
'It would be a good idea if Pakistan could become a truly Islamic state and implement ideas such as riba free banking.'

We're working on it, now only if Laddu and his ilk would leave us alone.

:)

Re: # 16

This is rich. Third world countries create wealth and the western world just generates interest.

Speak of grandiose delusions.

Very true, Pervez sahib, but where do we go from here is the question. For how long the education sector will remain a neglected area on our governments' priority list? Will we ever learn the right lessons???

Pervez...
I support your view...But WB mostly provides loan to improve literacy rate and in primary education. In India,the SSA( Sarva Siksha Aviyaan) is partly sponsored by WB and partly from education cess collected from income tax. I don't think world bank will invest money on luxury item like higher education....

Sunil babu,

MAJ is probably 500years behind time when expenditure on armaments,queens necklace and kings, luxurious palace were only considered productive

I am trying to understand the Islamic viewpoint. I have taken loads of interest bearing loans- for all kinds of "unproductive" reasons.

Regards

#36 Cars/housing non productive? In modern economy all such assets are considered productive as these give rise to production and consumption of so many other materials like cement ,steel,and host other civil,electromech materials.MAJ is probably 500years behind time when expenditure on armaments,queens necklace and kings, luxurious palace were only considered productive

Nkg moshai,

Good question. Maybe one solution wud be to restrict loans to productive assets and not to cars/housing.

Beej bhayya,

If my understanding is correct, paying more than face value alone does not result in "interest" rather it is paying a fixed coupon, not profit sharing.

Hopefully, some experts like Zee sb or Tahir mian or kadvimeethi will shed some light.

Regards

MAJ, there is no way for money to "grow" unless somebody is paying more for it (in whatever form) than its face value. An interest by any other name is still interest.

Re: # 32
MAJ...
That way how you manage housing or car loan? You create asset, which might depreciate with time (specifically car)...and when you sell it after 4/5 years, if you share the selling cost, you are going to loose anyway...
Can people borrow car loan from Islamic Banks?

Re: # 30
dash...
".. indian rope trick..."
Who have invented that concept?
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=x_cJ8FwBdaI

Dash babu,

If hard core Muslims are OK with profit sharing, so be it.

Regards

Re: # 23
MAJ...
I think Islamic banking concept might work in Pakistan very well...but who will invest money, where you will not get any value addition in terms of currency?
The way inflation is rising, I will like to take interest free loan of Pakistani currency, equivalent to US$1Bn from Pakistani banks and will return that amount after 300 years....meanwhile the value of Pakistani currency will devalue so much that...
Hey pakis, I want to take loan based on Islamic Banking...

it is still implicitly interest.....

the islamists think they have invented something new...this form of profit sharing has been around for a long time.

Thre is nore free lunch - they think they have free lunch available.

If the ROI is not satisfactory the guy who stumped the money gets agitated and starts interfereing int ehday-to-day affairs - to avoid all of this complcaition you have the ntion of saying I donot care how you doit (its the regulators headache) but I want x% retunr for my $100. Simple. I donot wnat to know about your management problems, your raw materials prblems. It is not my problem - you deal with it.

Free Lunches are just in the imagination. Interest free; profit sharing etc are old hats and are very basic sructures and require a non-specialist to start interfereing where he has no expertese. This leads to a lot more problems. If the guy canot give the return expected, he is in trouble.

Cloud cuckoo land and interest free world go hand in hand.

Heck if there is really some like a free lunch and interest free let me know, and I will start believing in

(a) peter pan
(b) perpetual motion machines
(c) indian rope trick
(d) Elvis is alive and kicking
(e) etc etc

Dash babu,

It does not have to be like that. It could be linked to profit sharing or actual return on capital, if my understanding is correct. To take an example:

Debt: USD 100
Equity: USD 100
Total Capital: USD 200

Total earnings: USD 40
ROI: 20%

So the debt holder gets USD 100 + 20% of 100 = 120.

But let's suppose there is no profit then debt holder gets only USD 100.

The above transactions would be considered interest free.

Regards

interest-free is an oxymoron.

you agree on the return before hand - so you give the guy $100, and say you need to return $125 to me by the end of the month.

There is not notion of interest explicitly but it is there implicitly.

Even if you say I want x% of your profit when you return the $100 to me, its still bloody interest - how different is it from it or paying dividends.

If the islamists think there is a free lunch available, and that this "interest free thing" is really interet free they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

hang on - they might have just invented a " perpertual motion machine" and I have witnessed the Indian Rope trick!

Maju Bhai

Almost every bank in Pakistan has now seperate section of Islamic Riba-Free Banking .Riba means interest.Few years ago, there were only 26 banks having this facility now 500+ banks offering this and no. is increasing day by day
Regards

Interest free banking though appears noble is not practicable.Main source of bank income is interest as money is their raw material.Supposing in an islamic country this raw material (money)is available free then also they can not distribute it free as they have to recover admin costs.their system works just as other non islamic banks ,only thing is they call interest "profit percentage" Besides this most common arabic people in gulf countries want interest on their money but loans they want interest free.

Interest free banking though appears noble is not practicable.Main source of bank income is interest as money is their raw material.Supposing in an islamic country this raw material (money)is available free then also they can not distribute it free as they have to recover admin costs.their system works just as other non islamic banks ,only thing is they call interest "profit percentage" Besides this most common arabic people in gulf countries want interest on their money but loans they want interest free.

Re: # 19
Krishna...
"The amazing thing is that humanity is such a stubborn thing that it refuses to die in people, even under the yoke of Islam - like in this journalist here. That's why I feel that there is hope after all...."
Even staying long under islamic system....
Most of the muslas commit islamic crime, when they are ganged up in conductive environment like mosques, madressahs...separate them from these institutes or islamic environment, they will behave like ordinary human being...


nobody, on this planet, is born as musla...it is the environment, specialy the parents, make him/her musla.....

Tahir mian/Dawa behen,

It would be a good idea if Pakistan could become a truly Islamic state and implement ideas such as riba free banking. If Pakistan can prove to be a success as an Islamic state, it could act as a new paradigm for other states, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

Regards

I am not here to give some religious lecture

Nor i am criticizing anyone but

quote only 1 hadees of Prophet(pbuh)

from Bukhari , the most authentic hadees book

that is

"" There are 73 levels of Interests and lowest level is equal to have Adultery with your own Real Mother """



Present Credit Card Crunch is in front of us


Whole Europe and US economy is sinking

UK economy is on death bed

May be UK going to IMF


May Allah save us from Interet


Anyways, I appreciate some good points of Dr.Hood

One question to Chor Government of PPP

You looters are going 50 members trip for 3 days in Switzerland in precious hotels stay with your wives


Cannt you give this money to HEC wo has clsoe funds to local universities for Research and for foreign students completing thier PhDs

Re: # 5

"How does the interest-free loan work?"

It works amongst Muslims, i.e. those who believe in not multiplying away wealth through 'interest': just the way Allah ordered!

But you're a little devil who has named himself Allah; a reincarnation of the old abusive ChowQ nick you used earlier. Right?

Re: # 17

nkg:

My points:

a. it is the student body that makes difference, over faculties and facilities (not that these two are irrelvant). We have plenty of proof from IITs in India, and in private colleges (not just Ivy leagues) in the U.S. Such a student body produces people you named and also includes Obama, and even those who dropped out Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Ability to innovate and apply innovation to reinvent society and system are essential. This ability is present in students and not in as much as in the faculty and facility. More wealth in recent boom is created and transformation is cause by brilliant students collaborating with each other in their dorms, than by faculty classes or labs. Creating places where such intelligent groups can be together is key. Why 5 IITs were enough when India population was less than 300 million, and they are enough also? Creating more centers of merit and execellence where bright and brillant students can meet and collarborate with each is the key according to me. India needs to keep meritcocracy (hence I am not in favor of reservations) as the principle of selection. There is such a talent even in villages and all communities and income group.

I have faith and belief in inherent desire to succeed and accomplish, even if it is begging. That is why there was Salim and there was Jamal in Slumdogs Millionaire.

#18 Posted by _arjun54

And we wonder how this HP, tahmed, masadi, urstruly, mantolives etc. represent the "educated" class of Pakiland. Now just think about the uneducated masses.

Can you imagine a Indian textbook that would say that Islam is "inherently iniquitous"? The Arundhati Roys of this world would run to Pakistan to hold protest rallies against India (as they have done so many times before).

The amazing thing is that humanity is such a stubborn thing that it refuses to die in people, even under the yoke of Islam - like in this journalist here. That's why I feel that there is hope after all.

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Re: # 15
Anil...
Primary education and higher research is not connected at all. If you can send 40/50 of your population to decent schools and may be 5-10% to graduate programs, that is enough to create good research base. During british period, we have got scientists like J C Bose, Meghnad Saha, Satyen Bose, P C Roy, C V Raman, H G Khorana...Do you feel literacy rate was very high that time? What Dr. Hoodbhoy is talking about Paki higher education, that can be said about Primary education in India. Just to enhance statistics drastically, the way state Govt.s are lowering the standard of primary education, it will create Pakistan like situation some day. Govt. is just ensuring low quality education for poors (like that of MAD-RAISE-A system in Pakiland)....

One must understand that institutions like IMF and world bank have twoobjectives to their business:

1. Their first and foremost objective is to make sure that all the wealth generated in third world pumps through the west and specially US. Since the economies of these countries are interest based they themselves cannot generate wealth. All they can generate is the money that is no existent. A classical example to support this fact is the recent collapse of economies in the western world. 100s of trillions of dollars have disappeared in thin air as if they never existed - well they never existed, be certain of that. Just like a patient of blood cancer needs a transfusion from a healthy person, western economies require "fresh blood" to inject in their veins. This blood comes from the so called third world - the universes hub of creation of wealth. IMF and WB make sure that traffic of this blood continues only one way.

2. The bottom line is that IMF and WB are businesses in their essence, not charities or philonthropy for rich (not wealthy) western nations. The reason the only invest in higher education is that that Return on Investment (ROI)is astronomically high in this investment rather than in investing in basic education. It also provides them with a cheap source of talented brain. Brain drain is necessary for their societies to survive. Most of the werstern countris have their populations groth in negetive.

IMF and WB are thus instruments of oppression and slavery. In 60 years of their existence they can not show one single country that has positively benefited from them - not a single one.

Hoodbhoy:

In this connected world, research is not a criteria to measure institution of higher learnings. Innovation and ability to innovate gives power to reinvent the society. Increase in productivity to advances in technology and finance are driven by innovation and not research.

Developing economies like Pakistan or India can hardly afford research, when basic education needs are enormous, whether the money comes from the World Bank or not. My suggestion to you, if you have ability to influence the desicion making on higher education in Pakistan, is to organize more places of meritocracy where more creame de la creame (not to be confused with elites) of Pakistani students can come. If you study IIT phenomena, it is not the faculty or facility which were more important, they have been quite mediocre, than the student body which has been outstanding.

Brilliance and intelligence needs to be developed and harnessed and then let them succeed wherever they can in this connected world. Pakistan will benefit more by this approach than research its institues of higher learning or publications of papers by their faculties.

Huh, It is PPP government who stopped funding for research projects and higher education initiatives. And Dr Hoodbhoy is blaming HEC and its old team for the damage done. Clearly shows that he is trying to score points against Dr. Atta and his team as he has been doing for last several years.

And Citations between 1998-2003 and 2003-2008 are simpoly not comparable. As newly published articles haven't yet started getting citations and will get citations in coming years.

Huh, It is PPP government who stopped funding for research projects and higher education initiatives. And Dr Hoodbhoy is blaming HEC and its old team for the damage done. Clearly shows that he is trying to score points against Dr. Atta and his team as he has been doing for last several years.

And Citations between 1998-2003 and 2003-2008 are simpoly not comparable. As newly published articles haven't yet started getting citations and will get citations in coming years.

Dr. Hoodbhoy, what you say about the low number of citations is true but must be counterbalanced (even though I am unfamiliar with the specific details regarding the QAU) by the simple fact that when an educational institution is in the process of setting up new research programs, the initial research will definitely draw a lot from the outside world and the number of citations by others of such new research (which is probably still trying to find its wings) will be a bit on the low side. Research takes time! Research for the sake of research and only for advancing the state of understanding – for satisfying the questions inside, which is the true research, the tapasya, will only come later – after the researchers are less motivated by materialistic considerations and are mostly driven by intellectual curiosity alone.

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Dr. Hoodbhoy, a process like providing WB aid to any country is bound to be a highly bureaucratic process, with all kinds of inefficiencies coming along with it – including the kinds that you mention here. The WB is bureaucratic of necessity; Pakistan, and other countries receiving aid, have corruption institutionalized. Still, I am glad you wrote this piece – perhaps somebody will take notice and maybe pay a bit more attention to what the money gets used for and also maybe there will be a bit less corruption.

Re #7,
No, I don't believe Saving Points are cashable.

If you really want to get into the details, read
http://kentennant.com/rm/documents/JAKBankReport.pdf

It's basically a more sophisticated version of the 'committee system' popular among Indo-Pak households.

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#5 Khurram.

Thanks for the link. I read it once, almost got a headache understanding Savings Points (SPs). :) But will read it again to understand the process.

In the mean time I want to know if I have $1000 to spare, with the above system I can earn SP for later use. What if would never need a loan (a hypothetical situation). Can I cash in the SP's for real dough?

#5 "How does the interest-free loan work?"


Here is one way,
http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/carrie2.htm

#2 tahir,

How does the interest-free loan work?

Dr Hoodbhoy as usual makes some excellent points, lets hope WB folks have learnt their lesson.

Re: # 1

Current meltdown in the financial world should help understand incompetencies, greed and failure at the highest level.

Sorry, I never read the article.

The less said about the WB/IMF the better. But let me say that they've dug a deep grave for humanity, and into which they themselves and their agents will fall.

An interest-free road to peace must be paved for mankind.

Now's the time.

If the World Bank can't use even crude measures of quality of research, their motives are suspect. They cannot be that incompetent, surely?