Obama Inauguration Brings Hope, Scepticism

dost-mittar #: "First, let me correct you on the figure of 60-70,000 killed by Indian terrorism..... regarded as traitors and inter-factional fights."

....this is, totally, incorrect.....an overwhelming amount of killings are by indian security forces....there are tons of researches and statements by human rights organizations that clarify this......

there are hardly any, if any, killing in inter-factional fighting.....at any one time, the maximum amount of militants in kashmir is barely a thousand or two to three.....even if all of them kill each other the figures do not reach tens of thousands.....

there are upto 700,000 indian soldiers there......one for every 5 to 7 kashmiris......the most heavily militarised area, by far, in the whole world......these are the guys responsible for killing kashmiris.......over a 20 year struggle these forces, only need to kill around 3000 people a year, to reach the figure of 70,000

anyone who doesn't believe this, should, simply ask the kashmiris......

"I also think that it is an exaggeration to call Indian counter-insurgency as terrorism, not yet. For that, it will have to approach the level of Israeli killings in the Palestine...."

.......Indian killings are well beyond the Israeli level in Palestine....though not at the same level as US killings in Iraq....or Pakistani killings in East Pakistan......however, in the later two cases, both entities left (about to leave) the region (and in both cases, through terrorism by local forces, in response to state terrorism).......

Israelis have not killed upto 70,000 Palestinians, as far as I know.....and all the Israeli killings get much higher scrutiny than those killed, in Kashmir, by India.....and in case of Kashmir, there is already a passed UN resolution, while in case of Palestine there isn't (this, of course does not excuse Israeli actions, there).......

"Now, to your question. What would happen if Kashmiris started killing civilians in India? It has already started and attacks on the Indian parliament and Mumbai attacks are not the only instances."

The total number of people killed in these two attacks is around 200......way way below the tens of thousands killed in Kashmir......

"....a la Israeli settlements on the West Bank. However, if these actions also fail, there may be political pressure on the govt. to give in."

......one disagreement here.....Israelis have removed all their military forces from Gaza and West Bank.....they are forcing settlements though.....but not keeping an occupying army, like India is doing in Kashmir.....the rest of what you said, I generally agree with......

"...A more effective approach by the Kashmiris would be to turn to non-violent agitation......compromising with the kashmiris...."

.......i do not know of a single case where non-violence resulted in the voluntary removal of an occupying army....if you know of one, please highliht it.....as i said, occupying armies don't just get up one day and say, i see non-violent dissidents.....how stupid of us to occupy this place, let's leave.....

......kashmiris were actually quite non-violent for 40 years or so......nothing happened......india hasn't budged an inch......in fact, the violent struggle started after the jehlum river incidence, when indians killed a large number of protesting kashmiris.....even after the recent non-violent struggle, indians, in no way said they will give a plebescite to kashmir.....

.......do you, seriously, think india will give kashmiris plebescite if they continue to hold placards and shout slogans for the next ten years.......why did it occupy kashmir, in the first place, if it was merely going to back off, after non-violent protests.......

Re: # 40 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2009 7:38:44 am

hamid mian,

[.. holbrooke has great credentials,..] are you suggesting that he will be ineffective? I am afraid that he might be able to put a "Dayton" on the uninitiated pakis. They might get trapped into thinking that he is just another joe schmuck and they are drawn into the icc, just like milosovich.

[.. things will change only when knaves like zardari, kiyani and karzai decide to change them ..] i am sure you know that there is over $1B that is to be spent in FATA, an amount that is above and beyond what Joe Biden has promised with his legislation.

Pakistan gets some Dick (thanks Jang)...I mean richard holbrooke...

Twenty killed in US drone strikes in N, S Waziristan
Updated at: 2120 PST, Friday, January 23, 2009
WANA: Twenty people have been killed and several others injured in US drone strikes in North and South Waziristn on Friday.

According to foreign news agencies, the dead include four foreigners.

Three missiles were fired at a house of a man named Khalil in Zera, an area located in North Waziristan, killing 10 people and injuring many others.

The second attack was launched on a house of Dilfaraz in South Waziristan’s area near Wana which also reported to have killed 10 people.

The injured have been shifted to local hospitals.

It was the first suspected US missile strike since US President Barack Obama was inaugurated on Tuesday and comes one day after he appointed Richard Holbrooke as special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

bubba mian,

......... holbrooke has great credentials, but he is no match for the shennigans of zardari and karzai - america's ability to influence affairs in that part of the world is highly over estimated ..... oh sure, they can go and bomb a mud hut here or build a girl's school there, but it is all superficial nonsense and we are a bunch of naive fools for thinking we actually making a difference ........ things will change only when knaves like zardari, kiyani and karzai decide to change them ...... till then the taleban will continue to be a pain in the the world's collective posterior - specially in pakistan's sorry arse ......

..... hopefully holbrooke is smart enough to recognize the futility of all this activity .......... as my friend said as we drove by admiral mullen's plane parked on the tarmac at chaklala base, "these damn americans are a pain in the rear - i have had to cancel my fishing trip because this fool showed up" ....... kiyani will be really upset if holbrooke shows up and forces him to cancel his golf game with musharraf ......... and zardari likes to sleep in till noon .........

Re: # 31 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2009 4:39:28 am

Hamid mian,

Do you have any comment on this Richard Holbrooke nomination?

Beena,

Obama is indeed a hope to US & the world more so after what this world underwent under Bush.

I really dont see scepticism except among KKK-types.

As for Kashmir, the promise of good future is our main weapon.

You guys are either blind or do not want to recognize the elephant in the room. Your military/talib nexus is on the verge of destroying you internally. Shouldn't you worry more about the spread of fundamentalism in your country? Talibs closing girl schools in SWAT and banning women from working. I think that's more pertinent than giving moral sermons to American President.

Re: # 34 now that is a challenge that should not be refused?

Seriously DM, both sides donot want the plebiscite. Pakistan has given up part of kashmir to the Chinese.

With the current elections and results - in Kshmir, do you really think those guys want to be a part of the Hunting grounds of the Yanks.

I am reminded of the old hollywood movie - where this rich guy uses human beings as prey and hunts these poor guys all over his grounds. ANd he turned it into a commercial enterprise. Currently Pakistan is like that for the Yanks. The elite of Pakistan have turned vast swathes of their coutnries into this hunting ground for the yanks - in return for $$$$

Re: # 31 thanks you for gently reminding people of the purpose of this board (T).

However, I wonder if you subtle approach will reach those parts, other approaches have not reached as yet?

Maybe white spirit and a fire lighter will do the trick

hamidm:

I have already agreed to give Kashmir to you guys. What will you give in return.

And I think that your stereotype of a bhajji-eating horrible ones is outdated. You should see the line-up at the kabab place near my house here. Maybe we should meet one day - you supply the kebabs and tikkas and I'll supply kingfisher and let's see who runs out first, even without adjusting for the age factor.

Dash_Dot:

I think that nobody wants a plebiscite in Kashmir now. As far as the conditions, let's be honest. There were many UN appointed envoys to settle the conditions for plebiscite, the names of Gunnar Jarring and one Graham come to mind and it was always the Indians who refused to cooperate. Let's be honest, we were never honest about holding the plebiscite, the pre-conditions were merely a convenient excuse.

Hamid mian,

as long as kashmir is not resolved

I have already made an offer to FM Romair. We will give up Kashmir if you accept Mullah Omar as the next Amir-ul-Momineen of Pakistan.

Regards

romair mian,

..... thank you for unmasking indian state terrorism and putting up a valiant fight against senior terrorists like dost mittar and other horrible hindoos on this forum ........ it is time we pakis stood up to our scrawny bhaji-eating cousins .......

..... and tahmed thinks this is an article about obama ... fool! .... as long as kashmir is not resolved we don't care who is the president of the us or mauritania .....

Dash babu,

You are right. The jihad wont be ever even if we give up on Kashmir. The next stop will be Assam, Gujarat, Babri Masjid et al on our side of the border, Nizam-e Mustafa on their side.

Regards

the Jihadi model needs an eternal rolling squabble. Pakistan survuves on the Jihadi model - its economy is tied to this. Without it, its survival, (notwithstanding what Romair says), as a functioning viable; law-abiding state, is questionable

if kashmir is resolved tomorrow an it becomes pakistans.

Does any one with any sense realitically think the Jihadi machine will be rolled back? One must be out of their minds to think so.

romair and DM and anyoen else some questions to you: (I have alwasy asked/wondered about these)

Kashmir Plebicite:

(a)What are the conditions for this?
(b) which country currently has the best possible set of conditions to enable tihs to happen?
(c) do you really think that conditions in (a) will be fullfilled by the other ocountry no satisfying (b)?

IMHO pakistan will not be able to fulfill any of the conditions of the UN resolution. Pakistan nows this for sure, but still does this Randi-Rona (thanks to stuka for this). The simple reason is that the milatirsm seen in Pakistan has to live, and all those idiots in the LeT etc need to have some job otherwise they will turn on pakistan.