Obama Inauguration Brings Hope, Scepticism

So what is your cholesterol level?

Re: # 199 Posted by nb on January 26, 2009 8:53:44 am

nb, the writer of this article has not suggested any historical evidence on the looks with the levels of stress. i wonder if you accept his premise that indians are stressed out, and hence it shows up in their looks.

[The link between stress and good looks is so preposterous that I won't even address it.]

Actually, I was not even expecting you to address it. However, the article does point to the fact that Gujratis and Punjabis have poor dietary conditions. You agree that most gujjus are ugly looking and for the most part punjabis are good lokking (mostly muslims and sikhs, of course) why is the stress level high with punjabi hindus?

As for myself, I am exceptionally good looking. But, I will not allow my good looks to be a diversion in this important scientific evidence, that a hindu nation has produced too much stress in their society.

And Tahmed, do you know your cholesterol level?

Tahmed 32, can you please tell your partner Romair the same thing? Thanks.

Bubba, societies historically have all been stressed. 600 years ago, you may not have had to worry about a presentation, but you did have to worry about some Taimur the lame/Nadir Shah type ravaging your country, stealing your money, raping you and cutting off your head. It is a fallacy that stress is a modern issue.
The link between stress and good looks is so preposterous that I won't even address it.
BTW, do you know your cholesterol levels?

Re: # 191 Posted by nb on January 26, 2009 12:01:01 am

nb, the said post is about why indians are stressed. i suggest you re-read that post with an open mind. generally, imo, NRI's are stressed out people. why is that? this article is just an eye-opener for the uninitiated to the social practices followed in india. i just wanted to suggest to hamid mian that maybe one of the reasons for the paki good looks could be that they are not stressed out as much. would you not agree that stress does play some role in people's looks? imo, a very stressful society can not produce people of good looks. now can they?

Re: # 194 Tahmed

"...pakistanis have a life outside the subcontinent bak-bak. ..."

That's rich indeed coming from someone who at last count had posted no less than 14,894 posts on Chowk under 'Tahmed32' and an equal number under 'Tahmed'! Get a life.

#194 Posted by tahmed32

"pakistanis have a life outside the subcontinent bak-bak"

Read "pakistanis have a life ONLY outside the subcontinent bak-bak"

Re: # 194

Sahib, Ahmed Rashid, your fellow Pakistani has written an excoriating book on Pakistan that will put all Indian Chowkies to shame. Read it.

nb: unlike indian chowkies who are programmed to write nothing other than how good india is and how bad pakistan is, pakistanis have a life outside the subcontinent bak-bak.

#191 Posted by nb

"I have no idea about what medical research is done in Pakistan, so I will not comment."

Who has the time in Pakistan to worry about heart attack deaths when they have been dying like keeda makodas at a regular frequency and rate?

Beena, don't bother writing about Obama again..chowkies would rather hear about India or Pakistan.

Bubba, before talking of Indian rates of heart disease, take a look at the research done in the UK on South Asian rates of heart disease. They are ALL high. Indians generally recognise that they have a high risk of heart disease and a lot of work is done on it. I have no idea about what medical research is done in Pakistan, so I will not comment.
A study done several years ago actually suggested that Pakistanis were more at risk of heart disease than Indians. I've attached a table from there. I have been thinking for some time that this is an important topic for chowk and will be asking Clifton to write an FP article on it.

Govt takes over Dawa offices in Muridke



By Intikhab Hanif


LAHORE, Jan 25: The government of Punjab took control of the headquarters of the banned Jamaatud Dawa on Sunday and appointed an administrator, who would also oversee its various organisations, including charity hospitals, seminaries and other educational institutions, and agricultural projects.

////////////unfolding of another sham. Paki govt taking over the laskers assets and running it...my foot..it will be handed over to the isi to do and inturn it will be given to the laskers again.

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From the NY Times article cited in post #186:

"When the (Pakistan) army does act (in Swat), its near-total lack of preparedness to fight a counterinsurgency reveals itself. Its usual tactic is to lob artillery shells into a general area, and the results have seemed to hurt civilians more than the militants, residents say."

I propose that India sent the Rashtriya Rifles from J&K to Swat to teach the Pakistan Army a thing or two about counter-insurgecy warfare!

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Re: # 177 Hey, Arjun:

There was a picture of a man being flogged in broad daylight by the Taliban in Swat for extorting money. Poetic justice coming to bite the Pakistani butt in the rear!

Re: # 182 Posted by hamidm2 on January 24, 2009 7:47:48 pm

Hamid mian,

[..what is it about us pakis that makes them react so violently ? ..do they hate us because we are beautiful ?..] No, it is their diet that makes them so stressed out. I am sure you read this:

Here are some of the highlights:

Why Indians are stressed and unhealthy
Sunday, January 25, 2009
Aakar Patel

Last year, medical journal Lancet reported a study of 20,000 Indian patients and found that 60 per cent of the world's heart disease patients are in India, which has 15 per cent of the world's population.

Four things: diet, culture, stress and lack of fitness.

Gujaratis and Punjabis are the two Indian communities most susceptible to heart disease. Their vulnerability is recent. Both have a large peasant population -- Patels and Jats -- who in the last few decades have moved from an agrarian life to an urban one. They have retained their diet and if anything made it richer, but their bodies do not work as much. This transition from a physical life to a sedentary one has made them vulnerable.

Bombay's junk food was invented in the 19th century to service Gujarati traders leaving Fort's business district late in the evening after a long day.

Though Jains are a very small part (one per cent or thereabouts) of the Gujarati population, such is their cultural dominance through trade that many South Bombay restaurants have a 'Jain' option on the menu. This is food without garlic and ginger. Since they are both tubers (as also are potatoes), Jains do not eat them, because in uprooting them from the soil, living organisms may be killed (no religious restriction on butter and cheese, however!). The vast majority of Ahmedabad's restaurants are vegetarian. Gujaratis have no tolerance for meat-eaters and one way of keeping Muslims out of their neighbourhoods is to do it through banning 'non-vegetarians' from purchasing property in apartment buildings.

India's culture encourages swift consumption.

We eat with fingers, as opposed to knives and forks, or chopsticks, resulting in the scooping up of bigger mouthfuls.

The insistence by family – 'thoda aur le lo' -- at the table is part of our culture of hospitality, as is the offering of tea and perhaps also a snack to visiting guests and strangers.

Indian men do no work around the house. Middle class women do little, especially after childbirth. Many cook, but the cutting and cleaning is done by the servant. Slim in their teens, they turn thick-waisted in their 20s, within a few years of marriage.

The Indian is under stress and is anxious. This is bad for his health. He must be on constant guard against the world, which takes advantage of him: the servant's perfidy, encroachment by his neighbours, cars cutting in front of him in traffic, the vendor's rate that must be haggled down. Almost nothing is orderly and everything must be worried about.

Knowledge causes great stress, though the lack of information is also stressful, leading to spy games and office gossip.

Because there is no individualism in India, merit comes from seniority and the talented but young executive is stressed by the knowledge that he's not holding the position he deserves. Indians are peerless detectors of social standing and the vertical hierarchy of the Indian office is sacrosanct.

In the last decade, when Indians began owning companies abroad, the Wall Street Journal reported on cultural problems that arose. Their foreign employees learnt quickly that saying 'no' would cause their Indian bosses great offence, so they learnt to communicate with them as with children.

There is no culture of physical fitness, and because of this Indians don't have an active old age.

Past 60, they crumble. Within society they must step back and play their scripted role. Widows at that age, even younger, have no hope of remarriage because sacrifice is expected of them. Widowers at 60 must also reconcile to singlehood, and the family would be aghast if they showed interest in the opposite sex at that age, even though this would be normal in another culture.

Elders are cared for within the family, but are defanged when they pass on their wealth to their son in the joint family. They lose their self-esteem as they understand their irrelevance, and wither.


The writer is a former newspaper editor who lives in Bombay. Email: aakar.patel @gmail.com

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=158949

The criminals of pakistan will stop at nothing. The much heralded karachi fountain has been stolen and no one knew about it. The country is really going to dogs.

From dawn of today.

/////////////////////////////////

The “Water Jet Fountain� project was launched in December 2004 and completed in January 2006 with claims by the federal ministry of ports and shipping that it was the biggest display of its kind and was the world’s largest artificial fountain. It had generated enormous media hype much before it was launched.

However, in less than three years, the Docks police in Keamari Town registered an FIR about the theft of the huge machine, on behalf of an assistant electrical engineer of the Water Jet Fountain in October 2008.

The contents of the FIR (159/2008) lodged under Section 380 of the Pakistan Penal Code suggests that culprits took away some 22 parts of the machine separately and the KPT administration came to know of it only when it found the fountain, installed more than a nautical mile from the shore, out of order several days after the incident.

HamidM, if India's too poor for you, that's another thing altogether.

... it really amazes me to see the horrible hindoos on this forum run around like monkeys with their tails on fire ....... what is it about us pakis that makes them react so violently ? ..........do they hate us because we are beautiful ?....... .. what ever it is, we are doing something right to send them into these apoplectic fits ........ shabash, pakis! ..... but be careful, we have some senior citizens who might end up in their next incarnation prematurely ..... now, we don't want anil mian or dost-mittar ji coming back as an arjun, do we? ......

[There is a commonality between the taliban and the military.]

Note the last sentence of the following excerpt from the Thursday, January 22 entry into the "Diary of a Pakistani Schoolgirl" from Swat (currently being published on the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7848138.stm):

...Maulana Shah Dauran also said in his speech on FM radio that three 'thieves' will be lashed tomorrow and whoever wants to see can come and watch.

I am surprised that when we have suffered so much, why people still go and watch such things? Why also doesn't the army stop them from carrying out such acts? I have seen wherever the army is there is usually a Taleban member nearby, but where there is a Taleban member the army will always not go.

#178 by _ar_jun24

When the army does act, its near-total lack of preparedness to fight a counterinsurgency reveals itself.

After kick-starting a guerilla war in Kashmir where most Indian army units learnt the art of counter-insurgency warfare, so much so that crack American and Israeli units are learning how to fight from the Indian army, it is amusing to read that the Paki army is struggling to cope with the guerilla war inflicted on them by the Taliban.

Karma is a b!tch!

Re: # 176

There is a commonality between the taliban and the military. After studying in the madrassas, some join the military and others join the taliban. Most of the taliban who control swat are the punjabis, the same grouping as the paki military.

As 12000 madrassas turn out the jihadis, they will increasingly control the military and links with taliban will be reinforced. The issue then for teh world to sort out is the bomb, and that is when pakistan will be resized.

Most likely in the next war the indian aircraft will come from the easter borders of pakistan to take out the nukes.

allah-o-fubar....pure islam comes to pureland


now ijaz gul will be here...to tell us how the indo-israeli green pine radar(yes, radar) in kyrgyzstan is being used to jam the communications of the allah's army...while letting the FM station and jihadi comm units operate...

Radio Spreads Taliban’s Terror in Pakistani Region
By RICHARD A. OPPEL JR. and PIR ZUBAIR SHAH

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Every night around 8 o’clock, the terrified residents of Swat, a lush and picturesque valley a hundred miles from three of Pakistan’s most important cities, crowd around their radios. They know that failure to listen and learn might lead to a lashing — or a beheading.

Using a portable radio transmitter, a local Taliban leader, Shah Doran, on most nights outlines newly proscribed “un-Islamic� activities in Swat, like selling DVDs, watching cable television, singing and dancing, criticizing the Taliban, shaving beards and allowing girls to attend school. He also reveals names of people the Taliban have recently killed for violating their decrees — and those they plan to kill.

“They control everything through the radio,� said one Swat resident, who declined to give his name for fear the Taliban might kill him. “Everyone waits for the broadcast.�

International attention remains fixed on the Taliban’s hold on Pakistan’s semiautonomous tribal areas, from where they launch attacks on American forces in Afghanistan. But for Pakistan, the loss of the Swat Valley could prove just as devastating.

Unlike the fringe tribal areas, Swat, a Delaware-size chunk of territory with 1.3 million residents and a rich cultural history, is part of Pakistan proper, within reach of Peshawar, Rawalpindi and Islamabad, the capital.

After more than a year of fighting, virtually all of it is now under Taliban control, marking the militants’ farthest advance eastward into Pakistan’s so-called settled areas, residents and government officials from the region say.

With the increasing consolidation of their power, the Taliban have taken a sizable bite out of the nation. And they are enforcing a strict interpretation of Islam with cruelty, bringing public beheadings, assassinations, social and cultural repression and persecution of women to what was once an independent, relatively secular region, dotted with ski resorts and fruit orchards and known for its dancing girls.

Last year, 70 police officers were beheaded, shot or otherwise slain in Swat, and 150 wounded, said Malik Naveed Khan, the police inspector general for the North-West Frontier Province.

The police have become so afraid that many officers have put advertisements in newspapers renouncing their jobs so the Taliban will not kill them.

One who stayed on the job was Farooq Khan, a midlevel officer in Mingora, the valley’s largest city, where decapitated bodies of policemen and other victims routinely surface. Last month, he was shopping there when two men on a motorcycle sprayed him with gunfire, killing him in broad daylight.

“He always said, ‘I have to stay here and defend our home,’ � recalled his brother, Wajid Ali Khan, a Swat native and the province’s minister for environment, as he passed around a cellphone with Farooq’s picture.

In the view of analysts, the growing nightmare in Swat is a capsule of the country’s problems: an ineffectual and unresponsive civilian government, coupled with military and security forces that, in the view of furious residents, have willingly allowed the militants to spread terror deep into Pakistan.

The crisis has become a critical test for the government of the civilian president, Asif Ali Zardari, and for a security apparatus whose loyalties, many Pakistanis say, remain in question.

Seeking to deflect blame, Mr. Zardari’s government recently criticized “earlier halfhearted attempts at rooting out extremists from the area� and vowed to fight militants “who are ruthlessly murdering and maiming our citizens.�

But as pressure grows, he has also said in recent days that the government would be willing to talk with militants who accept its authority. Such negotiations would carry serious risks: security officials say a brief peace deal in Swat last spring was a spectacular failure that allowed militants to tighten their hold and take revenge on people who had supported the military.

Without more forceful and concerted action by the government, some warn, the Taliban threat in Pakistan is bound to spread.

“The crux of the problem is the government appears divided about what to do,� said Mahmood Shah, a retired Pakistani Army brigadier who until 2006 was in charge of security in the western tribal areas. “This disconnect among the political leadership has emboldened the militants.�

From 2,000 to 4,000 Taliban fighters now roam the Swat Valley, according to interviews with a half-dozen senior Pakistani government, military and political officials involved in the fight. By contrast, the Pakistani military has four brigades with 12,000 to 15,000 men in Swat, officials say.

But the soldiers largely stay inside their camps, unwilling to patrol or exert any large presence that might provoke — or discourage — the militants, Swat residents and political leaders say. The military also has not raided a small village that locals say is widely known as the Taliban’s headquarters in Swat.

Nor have troops destroyed mobile radio transmitters mounted on motorcycles or pickup trucks that Shah Doran and the leader of the Taliban in Swat, Maulana Fazlullah, have expertly used to terrify residents.

Being named in one of the nightly broadcasts often leaves just two options: fleeing Swat, or turning up headless and dumped in a village square.

When the army does act, its near-total lack of preparedness to fight a counterinsurgency reveals itself. Its usual tactic is to lob artillery shells into a general area, and the results have seemed to hurt civilians more than the militants, residents say.

In some parts of Pakistan, civilian militias have risen to fight the Taliban. But in Swat, the Taliban’s gains amid a large army presence has convinced many that the military must be conspiring with the Taliban.

“It’s very mysterious how they get so much weapons and support,� while nearby districts are comparatively calm, said Muzaffar ul-Mulk Khan, a member of Parliament from Swat, who said his home near Mingora was recently destroyed by the Taliban.

“We are bewildered by the military. They patrol only in Mingora. In the rest of Swat they sit in their bases. And the militants can kill at will anywhere in Mingora,� he said.

“Nothing is being done by the government," Mr. Khan added.

Accusations that the military lacks the will to fight in Swat are “very unfair and unjustified,� said Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, the chief military spokesman, who said 180 army soldiers and officers had been killed in Swat in the past 14 months.

“They do reach out, and they do patrol,� he said.

Military officials also say they are trying to step up activity in Swat.

General Abbas said the military did not have the means to block Taliban radio transmissions across such a wide area, but he disputed the view that Mingora had fallen to the militants.

“Just because they come out at night and throw down four or five bodies in the square does not mean that militants control anything,� he said.

Few officials would dispute that one of the Pakistani military’s biggest mistakes in Swat was its failure to protect Pir Samiullah, a local leader whose 500 followers fought the Taliban in the village of Mandal Dag. After the Taliban killed him in a firefight last month, the militants demanded that his followers reveal his gravesite — and then started beheading people until they got the information, one Mandal Dag villager said.

“They dug him up and hung his body in the square,� the villager said, and then they took the body to a secret location. The desecration was intended to show what would happen to anyone who defied the Taliban’s rule, but it also made painfully clear to Swat residents that the Pakistani government could not be trusted to defend those who rose up against the militants.

“He should have been given more protection,� said one Pakistani security official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the subject. “He should have been made a symbol of resistance.�

Gruesome displays like the defilement of Pir Samiullah’s remains are an effective tactic for the Taliban, who have shown cruel efficiency in following through on their threats.

Recently, Shah Doran broadcast word that the Taliban intended to kill a police officer who he said had killed three people.

“We have sent people, and tomorrow you will have good news,� he said on his nightly broadcast, according to a resident of Matta, a Taliban stronghold. The next day the decapitated body of the policeman was found in a nearby village.

Even in Mingora, a town grown hardened to violence, residents were shocked early this month to find the bullet-ridden body of one of the city’s most famous dancing girls splayed on the main square.

Known as Shabana, the woman was visited at night by a group of men who claimed to want to hire her for a party. They shot her to death and dragged her body more than a quarter-mile to the central square, leaving it as a warning for anyone who would flout Taliban decrees.

The leader of the militants in Swat, Maulana Fazlullah, gained prominence from making radio broadcasts and running an Islamic school, becoming popular among otherwise isolated homemakers and inspiring them to sell their jewelry to finance his operation. He also drew support from his marriage to the daughter of Sufi Mohammed, a powerful religious leader in Swat until 2001 who later disowned his son-in-law.

Even though Swat does not border Afghanistan or any of Pakistan’s seven lawless federal tribal areas, Maulana Fazlullah eventually allied with Taliban militants who dominate regions along the Afghan frontier.

His fighters now roam the valley with sniper rifles, Kalashnikovs, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, mortar tubes and, according to some officials, night-vision goggles and flak vests.

His latest tactic is a ban on girls’ attending school in Swat, which will be tested in February when private schools are scheduled to reopen after winter recess. The Taliban have already destroyed 169 girls’ schools in Swat, government officials say, and they expect most private schools to stay closed rather than risk retaliation.

“The local population is totally fed up, and if they had the chance they would lynch each and every Talib,� said Mr. Naveed Khan, the police official. “But the Taliban are so cruel and violent, no one will oppose them. If this is not stopped, it will spill into other areas of Pakistan.�

Ismail Khan contributed reporting.

barry brings hope and hellfires...

Thousands attend funeral of drone victims

Sunday, January 25, 2009

By Mushtaq Yusufzai, Malik Mumtaz & Irfan Burki

PESHAWAR/MIRAMSHAH/WANA: Thousands of tribesmen on Saturday attended the funeral prayers of the victims of Friday’s drone attacks in the North and South Waziristan Agencies. They condemned the killings and asked US President Barack Obama to spend the money on the welfare of the tribal people instead of killing them with sophisticated weapons.

Hundreds of tribesmen thronged Zyaraki village of North Waziristan Agency (NWA) to attend the funeral prayers of those killed in the drone attack.

Tribal militants and religious scholars present on the occasion were critical of the reporting of the international wire agencies and the national electronic media which, they said, reported that al-Qaeda operatives were killed in the CIA-operated spy-plane attack.

Religious scholars, including former MNA Maulana Deendar, Maulana Muhammad Alam and others, addressed a sizeable gathering of mourners at Zyaraki village of the Mirali subdivision and condemned air strikes by the US planes on the tribal villages.

They claimed that all those killed in the attack were innocent and local villagers, who had nothing to do with militancy or Taliban.

More hope for Pakistan emerging out of Swat and the 'intelligence' of the Pak Army in allowing this to happen:

"Radio Amplifies Taliban’s Terror in a Pakistani Region" (NY Times)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/asia/25swat.html?partner=rss& ; ;emc=rss&pagewanted=all

"In some parts of Pakistan, civilian militias have risen to fight the Taliban. But in Swat, the Taliban’s gains amid a large army presence has convinced many that the military must be conspiring with the Taliban."

Obama orders bombing of pakistan

/from jang of today////// The humiliated of pakistan further loses hoipe........

Obama ordered Waziristan air strikes

Sunday, January 25, 2009

News Desk

WASHINGTON: Barack Obama gave the go-ahead for his first military action the other day, missile strikes against suspected militants in Pakistan which killed at least 18 people, The Guardian reported on Saturday.

Four days after assuming the presidency, he was consulted by the US commanders before they launched the two attacks. Although, Obama has abandoned many of the “war on terror� policies of George Bush while he was president, he is not retreating from the hunt for Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders.

Pak has Qaida havens, admits Mush
25 Jan 2009, 0001 hrs IST, ANI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
WASHINGTON: After long denying that terrorist camps in Pakistan exists, the former president Pervez Musharraf has admitted that Pakistan does
have areas which provide safe havens to militants.

Musharraf said that al-Qaida is operating from remote areas in Pakistan, and due to the difficult geographical conditions in the region, it is very difficult for the security forces to dismantle the camps.

“There are ‘sanctuaries’ in Pakistan for al-Qaida, which combined with the remote, mountainous terrain ‘makes the task difficult’ of finding the militants,� Musharraf said.

Musharraf also rejected the notion that Pakistan is the originating point of terrorism, but accepted that there are agencies in the country which are offering help to the militant activities.
///////////

Finally mushy accepts what I had been telling, the paki isi supports al quida ////

BJ:

Current aid is certainly going to be different and have more accountability. My point is where will it go? It will be spent in FATA, SWAT etc. and not in other areas. I will be used for specific purposes to divide and conquor people in those areas. It may even be handed out by Americans themselves.

Re: # 171

Anil, the new aid for the Pakistanis is going to be qualitatively different from the old aid. Under GWB, they used to get tonnes of military hardware which the khakis then diverted immediately for use against the Indians. Now, most of the aid will be non-military (which is a good thing, even though Ajeya miaN would disagree) and there will be more accountability.

Re: # 166

Hamidm sahib:

".... sorry, you lost me ..."

It is about billions that Obama Biden are allocating for Pakistan. Where will they go? Certainly not in Kashmir, certainly not in Karachi, but in FATA and Swat most likely. The riches is coming there, Hamidm sahib to hopefully divide and conquor.

Re: # 169

I think she is highly proficient!

#various Ajeya

Yaar, the only "girlfriend" I have on this site is Jodhabai and whatever you do, don't get HER upset -- or she will stick one down your rectum faster than you can say "baap-re-baap"!

Re: # 155

Well, Hamidm2, I must agree with your grandma. I strongly recommend that you keep away from sadhus! They are no good for you. (Except for the ganza part which, based on your past interacts, is mere adrakh for you!)

Hamid mian,

Do you remember the discussion we had on the US financial war with China. Well, now The Economist is suggesting the same thing:

China and America
War of words

Jan 24th 2009 | WASHINGTON, DC
From Economist.com
Economic tensions between America and China are rising—at exactly the wrong time

http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13005072& source=features_box1

Although China still runs a huge current-account surplus, it is no longer accumulating foreign-exchange reserves at a rapid clip, as capital is flowing out of the country.

Re: # 165

anil mian,

.... sorry, you lost me

Hamidm sahib:

You might like to be more concerned about where all that civilian billions will be going in Pakistan. Certainly they would not be going to slumdogs of Karachi.

You might find that Abdali's gene pool providers start driving Mercedes along with Zardari, and Viagra may be more freely available in Peshawar than Michigan. Between you and I, days in Pakistan army for get rich quick scheme are over, but more golf and fishing trips to Swat and FATA may be coming.

My brahmim and bania instinct tells me that concentrating on geneology that traces to Abdali and not Gopinath to Kashmir has higher chances of succeeding and pay off.

You probably can Kashmir to Romair and his proper Visa track III. This approach will do wonders for Kashmiris and other muslim Indians.

Re: # 162

ajeya mian,

"Your girlfriend might have been one of those gathered at a stoning or a beheading, peering through her burqa, and absorbing the essential elements of Submission and Obedience 101."

.... don't give bj any ideas - he is a disciple of partaab mian .........

Re: # 161

nb,

i don't believe you because, apart from indiana jones and my grandma, i have heard some real nasty things about india from other sources ......my brother-in-law, who works for the irc, has been to delhi many many times ...... every time he comes back to islamabad he heaves a big sigh of relief and proceeds to describe the squalor and wretched misery of delhi and tells his twelve year old, "thank quaid-i-azam ..... but for him you could be living in delhi!" ....... however he does say that the ashok hotel is nice and the metro would be great if it weren't for the indian commuters .......

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Come and check it out for yourself. Back to Obama...

Re: # 156

tahmed,

bewakoof! ...... all i am trying to say is that the swat problem started during bb's government and the locals throng to public lashings and beheadings ....... like i said the army has other fish to fry and dha's to build

#155 Posted by hamidm2

[..... also, my grandmother used to say that hindoo sadhus kidnap muslim babies to appease kali's lust for blood ......]

Yep. That's a standard Islamic trait. I have heard Jewish friends from Iran say similar stories that Muslim parents used to say about Jews to their children - that Jews make their bread with Muslim blood. I, for example, grew up with my grandma saying no such thing about Muslims. But then, we're humans, not Muslims.

I meant a "carrier".

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#153 the fact is that the locals are in fact fighting the taliban. not siding with them, as you claim in your attempt to cover-up for the failure of your beloved generals and corp commander friends and relatives.

Re: # 154

nb,

... sorry, i don't believe you guys ..... i have seen "indiana jones and the temple of doom" so i know how savage you guys really are ...... also, my grandmother used to say that hindoo sadhus kidnap muslim babies to appease kali's lust for blood ....... that's all the proof i need

HamidM2, I just wanted to let you know there are no Hindu and Muslim water taps in India now, so that wouldn't have been a problem anyway.
Back to Obama...

tahmed,

... i suggest that you go back and read the history if tnsm - in the 1990's they were driving on the wrong side of the road in malakand division (which included swat, dir and chitral) to defy 'british' laws ....... like i said, this cancer has been fesstering for many many years - 1430 years to be exact ..........

Re: # 151

Ajeya, you idiot! In ANY community, if one looks for it, one can always find examples of bad people and bad deeds. It is a simple fact of history that Islam initially came to the subcontinent through aggressors. But that does not mean that aggression translates into a common characteristic of all people of the Muslim faith in the subcontinent.

In a pluralistic India, one needs to work on bonding the aspirations of all its people -- and work on the common good. It is a mistake (and perhaps a malicious act) to imply wholesale culpability on a community.

#147 bjkumar

[The real crime was to cast that common evil into a communal mold -- ]

Yup. Moslems were non-communal before Jinnah. Jinnah made them communal. Without Jinnah, they would be cuddly little furballs.

hamidm #140 your confused view of reality is getting worse too: you seem to think that the current state of affairs in swat were there all along.

Re: # 140 Mr. H Sir, Kindly write simple. When you wrote Mrs.Zardari I had confusion in mind. Mrs Bhutto tried for short cut to ride tiger by freeing him. Short cuts always lead to calamity and this trick of freeing and riding tiger killed her.
Good night.

#143 hamidm2

And his arguments hold even more water when we see how HIndus are treated in Pakiland, in contrast - 2nd class citizens, no rights to attaining many high offices, vilified in school textbooks, and so on...

Re: # 143

hamidm2 miaN, I do not wish to speak bad of your late dad. But he was mistaken. And you are doubly mistaken to buy his line hook line and sinker -- because you have more information accessible than he could ever have imagined.

There is nothing in what he said that could not have been used (with some changes) by Sri Laloo Prasad Yadav to express how his ancestors suffered as a result of the caste system! Or by the present day Dalits in India! Or by the Jhugiwalas of the "Slumdog Millionare"! It is merely one depiction of the mentality of exclusivism which is the characteristic of racism/communalism/casteism, etc. (No, Laloo became Chief Minister WITHOUT moving to Pakistan!)

The real crime was to cast that common evil into a communal mold -- and it was done by the Jinnah -- and in that crime, he was aided and abetted by the generational members of your dad (may his soul rest in peace!) There is no possible way to absolve him and his likes -- there are merely "explanations"!

However, your late dad was perhaps right on the spot in addressing you as "Arrey bewakoof!"

#143 hamidm2

[bjkumar,

... please don't misquote my father (god bless his soul) ..... this is what he really used to say (thunder):

"bewakoof! tum nahin jantay hindoo baniye ki asliyat ! ..... hum nay who zamana dekha hai kay jub hum railway station par pani bhi nahin pee saktay thay ! .... agar quaid-i-azam na hotay to tum aaj gadhay chara rahey hotay!" ]

Your father was obviously an unbiased Muslim and an intelligent man. He correctly predicted how Muslims would be treated in a future India, as exemplified by Dr. Abdul Kalam, Shah Rukh Khan, Amir Khan, Pataudi, Azim Premji and so on...

#144

Dude, what are you saying? Indians is to Pakis is equivalent to..ANTIBIOTICS is to Bacteria?!!!!

ROTFL!!! Good one! Gotta note it down for future use.

I shall be taking my leave of this site till the noise dies down :)

#141 bjkumar

[Ajeya, feel free to jump into Manto's bed!

I must caution you though, it might be a bit crowded, with Majumdar and Hamidm2 already having grabbed their respective spots. Most of the space is, however, taken by the skeletal remains of the Dead Man Jinnah himself!]

bj,

I know you feel a bit different than most Indians, having a Muslim girlfiend (if I remember correctly). But facts are facts - you have to credit the great man with draining a whole lot of pus.

bjkumar,

... please don't misquote my father (god bless his soul) ..... this is what he really used to say (thunder):

"bewakoof! tum nahin jantay hindoo baniye ki asliyat ! ..... hum nay who zamana dekha hai kay jub hum railway station par pani bhi nahin pee saktay thay ! .... agar quaid-i-azam na hotay to tum aaj gadhay chara rahey hotay!"

The funniest part is look at who they picked. I mean this dude He Yafei...

From the same article

" This comes as no surprise to India as Pakistan’s close proximity with China is being regularly used on the diplomatic turf. It be recalled that India refused to entertain Mr He in September when he sought audience with the Indian leadership...."

I have to admit, in spite of all the crap that goes on here, I feel bad for people like TAhmed and even a little sorry for that puffedup, pompous nincompoop Romair

Re: # 139

Ajeya, feel free to jump into Manto's bed!

I must caution you though, it might be a bit crowded, with Majumdar and Hamidm2 already having grabbed their respective spots. Most of the space is, however, taken by the skeletal remains of the Dead Man Jinnah himself!

Re: # 134

tahmed mian,

.... your dementia is getting pitiful .... benazir zardari cut a deal with sufi mohammad (fazlullah's father-in-law) and legalized/institutionalized sharia law in swat in 1994 ....... how do you delegitimize islam once it has been legitimized?

#135 bjkumar

[No, the real culprit in the subcontinent was Mahomed Ali Jinnah, who ensured that, in a part of the subcontinent, there will always remain a permanent Muslim majority which will make it impossible for any political leader to ever question any policies or acts which can be -- even in the flimsiest of ways -- somehow be attributed to your religion and "justified" on that basis!]

I will NOT have anyone smear the great man I admire and am deeply grateful to, Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Without him, these primitive animals (devout moslems) would be roaming freely around India, and US drones would be bombing villages in India.

Jinnah was a true visionary. He alone realized that humans and muslims are incompatible. And this is becoming more and more evident every day, in every country. I'm just waiting until there are demands of Londonistan in England. We'll see which side of his ass Milliband speaks out of then.

In fairness to Pakistani politicos, one must appreciate their good qualities, too.

One good quality (and perhaps the only one that I can think of) is their endless ability to prove themselves as a source of mirth, a fountain of absolute amusement of unthinkable varieties, to the world at large!

Re: # 136

CoolAL, the cheque was not the Qureishi's to give. The khakis hold the sole proprietorship of that bank account. The Q is only making inane sounds in the air -- like the rest of those jokers in sherwanis.

So.....It has come to this. ROTFL...Where is the honor Pakis?!! Where is the dignity?!! Now you are willing to be China's bitch and are proudly proclaiming it....


" A day after Islamabad attacked the US for linking financial aid to its good behaviour, Pakistan foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said his country has given Beijing a “blank cheque� to negotiate on Islamabad’s behalf. The Pakistani foreign minister said that he had told Chinese special envoy He Yafei to “go to Delhi and you have a blank cheque from us�. He further added that Pakistan was ready to do whatever China suggests to his government. "


Use google to find th article....

Re: # 131

[good moslems like you]

No, the real culprit in the subcontinent was Mahomed Ali Jinnah, who ensured that, in a part of the subcontinent, there will always remain a permanent Muslim majority which will make it impossible for any political leader to ever question any policies or acts which can be -- even in the flimsiest of ways -- somehow be attributed to your religion and "justified" on that basis!

Like your dad used to say --- "Arrey bewakoofoN, apne girehbaan meiN jhaanko!"

hamidm: as for Mrs. Zardari (ha! ha!), agreed she was no Joan of Arc either. but dont pin every medal on her. How a country can have a half million man modern army and allow armed bandits (never mind their sharia bakwas) take over a part of the country is beyond me!! at least the journalists are writing articles on it.

hamidm #131 sharia is the excuse. land grab is the motive. you are a big boy, been around the block - dont tell me that even you are fooled.

You guys need to read this excellent book, 'Descent into Chaos: The United States and the Failure of Nation Building in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Central Asia' to understand what went wrong, and what, if anything, can be done by the great Pakistani author Ahmed Rashid:

Re: # 124

tahmed,

..... i hope you remember that sharia law in swat was introduced by mrs zardari in 1994 ..... this thing did not start yesterday - it started 1500 hundred years ago in the desert of arabia and good moslems like you are the real culprits for encouraging this madness ........

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unemployed pakis like HP and minimum wage cab drivers...here's your chance to make some money..

urdu proficiency is a a must-have and pushtu a plus?? looks like the danda is going to be shoved really deep this time...

of course, the position requires published work not just bloviating... so it'll probably go to a non-paki..

http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?JobID=77742010&WT.mc_n= jobscomview

Pakistan Cultural Advisor
About the Job

SOS International, Ltd is seeking a subject matter expert on Pakistan, with knowledge of Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA) and Pakistan-Afghanistan relations.



The ideal candidate will act as Cultural Expert for our US military client; providing cultural perspective and understanding of the region’s history and politics, including the ethnic issues and violent and extremist movements. The candidate must have proficiency in Urdu language. Pashtu proficiency is a plus.


Responsibilities:

• Advises the client with regard to cultural perspective on critical area of responsibility (AOR).
• Uses predictive analysis to identify political, social and economic trends.
• Tracks key communicators (media outlets, journalists, academics, terrorists, government officials, NGO leaders, etc.) to map influence.
• Analyzes, assesses and recommends strategic response

Minimum Requirements

• Must possess a graduate degree or equivalent experience
• Must be US Citizen and able to maintain a government clearance
• Proven track record evidenced by graduate work, published papers and/or work experience

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#123 hamidm: lets hope so. otherwise Obama will solve it for them. At least lets hope so. I think it is criminal to have parts of Pakistan handed over to these turbaned animals.

Re: # 118

tahmed,

.... don't worry, zardari and his forty thieves will have things under control as soon as they have some time ........ it seems that everyone in islamabad including zardari, gilani and the cook at the presidency have been busy solving the problems in dubai, zurich, london and davos ....... also kiyani and his guys are busy with planning dha phase 8 in lahore .......... here is what spymaster rehman malik said yesterday when asked why nobody from the central government had ever visited swat :

KARACHI: The government has prepared a fresh strategy to control the violence in Swat and the people will experience better results within a week, Interior Adviser Rehman Malik said on Friday. Talking to reporters at the Sindh Chief Minister’s House, Malik said the security situation in FATA was under control. “The operation in Swat will be conducted as terrorists have fled from FATA and are now hiding in various villages in the area,� he said.

Where is Masadi? Who put him away?? Chowk isnt chowk without Mr. Masadi!!

#114 that judge probably got the disease after being bitten by jay thakeray.

HP #115 dont leave your day job yet.

#117 rf: I also admire muhajirs. They are all so smart. And so highly civilized. When a muhajir passes by, I take off my hat, and bow my head in respect. As for god Altaf, I understand hollywood considers him to be the next Brad Pitt. General Musharraf, that great Enlightened Moderate muhajir, the Conqueror of Kargill, is considered to be the equal of Alexander the Great by historians.

I hope this makes your day.

hamidm #112 Shouldnt you be singing "Swat banega Pakistan" now? While harping about Kashmir, your generals lost Swat. Laenay kay daenay par gaye!!

Re: # 113

HP Saeen

Zardari/Altaf bhai bhai zindabad, your complimentary remarks for mohajirs are always welcomed as pearls of wisdom.

Re: # 114

HP

The Honorable session judge seems to be related to the deposed CJP, made of very thick skin.

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ONLY IN INDIA!

Dog dies after biting judge


CHANDIGARH: Had the Municipal Corporation constructed a dog pound in the city, district and sessions judge KK Garg would not have had to suffer a nightmare after he was bitten by a stray mongrel on Monday. The dog died immediately after the incident. Worryingly, doctors say this could be a symptom of rabies.
Dog dies after biting judge, doctors suspect rabies

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chandigarh_Dog_bites_judge_dies /articleshow/3939721.cms

Well Hamid,

I am not a fan of mohjir but I got to say this: If you put them on to something they will usually get it by hook or by crook.
Before Partition they used to go around in Bihar and UP saying," Ban kay rahay ga Pakistan, butt kay rahay Hindustan"
Well they did it.

Now if we put them in charge of "butt kay raha ga Hindustan, Ban ka rahay ga kashmirstan"

what do you think would happen?

.... according to tahmed, obama is the great black hope for po' folk who are being oppressed all over the world ..... in my mind that includes the kashmiris who are fighting a brutal occupation army of dal-eaters ........ therefore, i call upon mama obama to take notice and help these poor people who are runing around in night gowns with their own personal space heaters ........ i also call upon the one decent hindoo on this forum - dost mittar ji - to let my people go ............

kashmir banega pakistan !

Law and Order in the richest secular country in the world!

Cops seek divine help to curb crimes
Patna: In the drive to make Bihar a crime-free state, the police have sought divine intervention by performing special prayers at the railway stations to prevent any wrongdoing in trains.

Special prayers were organised by the Government Railway Police (GRP) at the Ara railway station in Bhojpur district, which is about 60 km from Patna.

Four killed in police encounter

To ensure smooth and peaceful travel in trains, officer-in-charge of the GRP Vinod Kumar, the brain behind the move to seek divine intervention, performs prayers every full moon night.

"We perform prayers every month for maintaining law and order in the trains," Kumar said.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14835178

Hehehe!

Never trust an Indian physician for your health needs!

Punjab students take Munnabhai route to MBBS

http://news.indiainfo.com/2009/01/14/0901140658_punjab_students_munn abhai _route_mbbs.html

Punjab: Hundreds of Munnabhai's have attained MBBS degrees in Punjab in the past few years, with assistance from nine gangs. The Punjab Police identified 35 persons who provided assured seats in medical colleges to students.

The police have sought arrest warrants for 27 persons involved in the operations, which were spread across Delhi, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, and Chandigarh.

The gangs lured aspirants with promised seats in medical colleges. They would hook up intelligent medicos to appear for the pre-medical entrance test on their behalf. IPS officer LK Yadav, who has been investigating the racket, said an aspirant would pay Rs 15 lakh-Rs 20 lakh for a seat in a medical college. An impostor medico would be paid Rs 5-6 lakh.

The names of members of the nine gangs were divulged to police by Balraj Singh, kingpin of one of the gangs, who was arrested last week.

#108 Posted by dost_mittar
Yours is a frustrated person's response.

He probably needed it but the timing is curious after the reports that the guy is unable to heck it!

HP:

"This is interesting that India has to switch PM in the middle of the game. Parnab takes over as PM after a fake heart trouble for Manmohan Singh. Now the question is would India remain in the game or back out."

As I write, MMS is in a fake surgery room in a fake hospital under a fake knife of fake surgeons to cure a fake heart trouble.

HP, you are amazing sometimes.

#102 Posted by HP

[Now the question is would India remain in the game or back out.]

India is a much bigger power than UK. Indians don't give a rat's ass what Miliband says. Barack Hussein Obama can hope all he wants. He's going to be unsuccessful if he tries to meddle in Kashmir.

What is happening in the World's richest country? People are looking for jobs outside!
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?652254

Want to Settle Abroad? Offer a Plane to God!
JALANDHAR | JAN 21, 2009
PRINT SHARE COMMENTS
Want to seek greener pastures abroad? Come to a gurudwara here and offer a plane and who knows your wish might get fulfilled.

This may sound strange but Punjabi youths, especially from the Doaba region, have been thronging the Gurudwara Sant Baba Nihal Singh Ji Shaheedan in Talhan to offer toy planes so that their wishes of going abroad and getting lucrative jobs are fulfilled.

Toy planes, inscribed with names of different carriers, are found in front of the Guru Granth Sahib.

It all started few months back, when the word spread that wishes of settling abroad would be fulfilled if one offers a toy plane in the shrine.

#104 Posted by tahmed32

[ajeya: that was a very good comeback...for a half-brain. ]

Half a brain is always enough to swat a Paki.

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Nato kill rate targets,

There are thousands of madrassas in pakistan producing the jihadis. They do attack the nato troops in afghanistan. Each such attack is followed by gunship attacks by the paki troops on paki jihadis and predator attacks by the US on al quida which is supported by teh isi.

Based on the available statistics, the nato kill rate is around 50 paki jahidis for every one nato soldier.

This taget will be maintained by Obama also. The jihadis seek death, and paki nation is delivering it to the jihadis at their door steps. This is the role of a true islamic country.

Obama Inauguration Brings Hope, Scepticism
Posted by dost_mittar Jan 23, 2009 04:59 am
“hamidm:
I have already agreed to give Kashmir to you guys. What will you give in return.�

Little over a month ago I posted this. And now we have the Western Media and Miliband talking about Kashmir.

Evil Walks the World Today
Posted by HP Dec 13, 2008 07:27 pm
“Lastly, if the Jihadi groups are eliminated the army could possibly ask for a reward. The US and the other forces in the area will have to consider that too. I have some idea but it would be premature to write about that now.� /

This is interesting the victim of Mumbai is being asked to give up something…The west plays some hard games.

It is again not abt India and sooner the Indians get this out their heads the better it would be for their national mental health.

It is all about protection to the US army and a prolonged US occupation of Afghanistan. The point in a nutshell is: would the Pak army provide protection to the US. If it does, there is a reward and that reward maybe Kashmir.
Judging by the muted Indian response to Miliband’s insistence and again a UK govt’s statement today that it is just following its stated policy, we are in for some really great times.
This is interesting that India has to switch PM in the middle of the game. Parnab takes over as PM after a fake heart trouble for Manmohan Singh. Now the question is would India remain in the game or back out.

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#98 Posted by tahmed32

[#97 that still doesnt change the fact that you need help.]

And you need Preparation H.

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#97 that still doesnt change the fact that you need help.

Correction: I meant "two main arguments", not "three arguments".

#95 Shanker understands your problem. He is a psychiatrist.

It would be one thing if traitorous fifth columnists like this shankar were able to support their self-aggrandizing stand stand with some logic. But they are never able to do this. Like recently Dost Mittar and majumdar (although Majumdar ended up saying he was against India giving up Kashmir) ended up with their tails between their legs.

Here's why. There are three arguments one can make about Pakistan's "right" to Kashmir, or Kashmir's "right" to become it's own country.

1. The MORAL argument: These immoral characters try different approaches to this:

a) State Terrorism: "Kashmiri civilians are being killed by the Indian army - this is grounds for Kashmir seceding", or
b) Plebiscite: "Kashmiris should be able to decide if they want to stay with India or not".
c) The UN resolution argument: "India should be honoring the UN Resolution it signed"

Quite obviously, BOTH these arguments fall flat on their face when inspected closely -

for a) the answer is that ANYTIME terrorists hide within the general population, collateral damage is unavoidable, and also that the troops would be unnecessary if there were no terrorists - the question of what came first - the troops or the terrorists can be answered quite easily.

As for b), of course, the question itself is a false question - because MUSLIM Kashmiris by themselves have no right to decide this - the original drive to secede was not because of Kashmiriyat, but Islamiyat - otherwise Hindu Kashmiris would have wanted to secede too. A great example in this regard is Sri Lanka - I just met a CHRISTIAN Tamil from Sri Lanka who HATES the Sinhalese rule just as much as HINDU Tamils - an excellent example of an ETHNIC struggle, rather than shoving things down the throats of the ethnic minority because they are a different religion.

For c), the obvious answer is "Why should India honour the UN agreement when Pakistan violated the EARLIER tripartite agreement it signed"? Why? Eh?

2. The pragmatist's argument: also known as the "look, it's for India's own good" argument: I think India has done PRETTY well in the last few decades IN SPITE of the NATO countries going against India at every opportunity, especially at the UN - because of Pakistan's servile attitude. I think we'll manage the next few decades PRETTY well as well, thank you very much.

Obama has PROMISED a) to end the American presence in Iraq, and b) to finish off the Taliban in Afghanistan. He won't be able to do either. American troops will be in Iraq for the next 30 years, and the Taliban will only gain in strength unless Pakis decide that secularism is the way to go, and change the name of their country and the constitution. Neither of which they'll be able to do, so Pakiland might fragment - just as Iraq might, with or without continued US presence.

I think we Indians should increase and improve our pest control - periodically bomb the bastard jehadis and send them scurrying to their spider holes in the ground and the hills. You can never fully get rid of pests, so one has to control the population.

Helping pakistan - advice from an indian

Tahmed,

///////////

ISLAMABAD: The Senate on Friday adopted a unanimous resolution assailing Israel’s barbaric military aggression in Gaza, killing thousands of innocent civilians including women and children.
The resolution moved by the leader of the House in the Senate Mian Raza Rabbani, and the following speeches lambasted the so called civilised world and particularly the US for watching the orgy of death and destruction like a silent spectator.
The resolution which also criticised the role of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) lauded government's efforts to sensitize the international community and the OIC to fulfill their responsibilities in upholding the rights of the Palestinian people.

//////////from dawn/

The paki legislators have criticised the israeli action. In pakistan the fata is being bombed regularly by the paki army, there more than 300,000 refugees , people who have escaped the paki bombing.

Tahmed, instead of calline me names, be bold enough to criticise the paki army action, or at least redicule the paki senators actions.

Tahmed, i lnow like all other pakis on chowk, you will not do that, for you the paki army with a motto of "jihad in the name of god" is figting anothet jihadi outfit, and you like all pakis find nothing wrong with it.

For you pakis, only when a kafir is killing a muslim then it is a big issue.

tahmed, you are pathetic.

Now tahmed, you can start your name calling.

arjun:

Bhai, I do need newspapers and am quite aware that Obama wants a surge in Afghanistan. We are talking of different things.

#87 Posted by dost_mittar on January 23, 2009 5:32:01 pm


I would call it state terrorism if Indians start firing indiscriminately into the crowds or start bombing like Bhutto did in Balochistan


paki forces have killed thousands of civilians in NWFP using bombers and tanks and heavy artillery...

Dost_Mittar, nowhere in any of his campaign speeches did Obama ever say that the US should flinch if it needs to go "Bombs Away!" in Pakistan.

#88 Posted by dost_mittar on January 23, 2009 5:33:57 pm

30K troops are being deployed to afghanistan...they're surely planning a major operation...i've spoken to servicemen who've been to afghanistan and they're almost unanimous in the opinion that the US needs to and will take action against major targets in pakiland...

this is obama's war..the one he said we need to focus on..

The Pakistanis are always SO modest when it comes to acknowledging their own not-so-small role in stirring up trouble in Kashmir. Perhaps they are afraid that if they speak out, they (or someone near them) will end up like Ms. Zarina Marri!

arjun:

My view is that Obama will continue the bombing in the areas where it was already taking place but will not extend it. So far, at least, he seems to be continuing the old Bush policy in this respect.

Romair:

In the earlier phase of the militancy in Kashmir, most of the killings of civilians, including those of the judges and administration, were by the jihadis; during the nineties, there were many killings between renegade militants and others. Most of the Indian killings were of insurgents and not of civilians. There have undoubtedly been violation of human rights but not to the extent that Kashmiri separatists claim who obviously have an interest in exaggerating these violations and human rights organizations who base their estimates on these complaints.

You keep referring to Indian forces as occupation forces. No Indian thinks of them as occupation forces; they do think of Kashmir as their territory, which it legally is: they are no more occupation forces in Kashmir than they are in Assam and Nagaland. Bluntly speaking, most Indians' feelings about Kashmir are accurately represented by arjun here; namely that Kashmir belongs to India and Kashmiris who do not want to be Indians can go to Pakistan.

Once again, I reiterate that while there have been human rights abuses in Kashmir, there is no state terrorism; it is the separatists who issued threats to people not to participate in the elections, not the Indians. I would call it state terrorism if Indians start firing indiscriminately into the crowds or start bombing like Bhutto did in Balochistan or the US is doing in FATA, and I hope that this never happens.

As for non-violent struggle and Indian independence, it was a result of many factors, Gandhi's non-violent agitation being one of them; if nothing else, it made the British realise that the masses are against their continued rule. And for the first forty years in Kashmir, there was no struggle for secession in Kashmir, violent or non-violent. The struggle, if any, was against the rigged elections.

Shankar miaN, somewhere down the line, you seem to have lost track. I am sure, if you were alive at the time of the Civil war, you would have been castigating the North for using their might to whip those Southern asses.

People like you often get called "bleeding heart liberals". I personally think the term "bleeding ass liberal" would be more accurate!

#84 Posted by shankar on January 23, 2009 5:07:15 pm

Dick holbrook is tne ambassador to afghanistan-pakistan..countries in the same league...

Now all we have to do is convince Richard Holbrook that when it comes to Kashmir, "might is right". I think Misolovic tried that in Serbia, with Holbrook...it didnt wash..

#81

So you're saying "might is right"...hey! I'm all for that!

What these Pakis forget is for 800 yrs , the muslims ruled & imposed themselves on a majority.... how conveniently they forget! I'm sure if Romair was alive at the time of Aurangzeb, he would be actively siding with hindus.

Re: # 43 Romair

We'll talk about Kashmir after you come out strongly against the Pakistani Army leveling entire towns as part of its collective punishment drive in FATA. Until then, my friend, your words are just hot air!

Re: # 80

Why is it "insecure" to whip ass?! People have been doing it for ages. If you do not know, just look back at your own very rear!

Millibund was asking for it -- so he got it! Kissa khatam!

Why are we Indians getting our dhotis in a knot about what Milliband says? Why does India absolutely not want any third party mediation in Kashmir?.. Jeez! the mere mention of it is angrily rebuffed as an "internal affair".

Evidently; we are very insecure if a third party sits in on the negotiations. Why? Whats wrong with America or the West strongly urging India & Pakistan negotiating on Kashmir?

Beena, how come you did not interview any janitors for this article?! It would have been only fair.

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tahmed,

... the content, maturity, and delivery of your posts is all very inspiring. You go man - tell 'em hindus like it is. Bravo, bravo ...

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Re: # 73

More name calling by a schooled ,not educated paki. I do not want to discuss anything with you, just pointing out the reality of pakis and their value system to others on chowk. The credibility and integrity of the pakis, well what does those words mean...let me check the book...no it only taks about obedience taht that is why tahmed is what he is, happy with jihadic killings and supporting it silence. Pathetic.

The educated wants the kicked out juydges to be restored, that is the demand of teh so called educated of pakistan/. This is the reason, the educated judges have ruled that giving two marks out of a maximum of one is valid according to the paki laws.

The tahmeds of pakistan are happy
That is teh kind of law that ylh practices. Pathetic country for the hopeless of the world.

from jang /////////////////////

"It is due to the existing education system that we are short of doctors, scientists, mathematicians, teachers, engineers and inventors. The IHC verdict will correct this situation, for every student who appeared in the exams will pass it with flying colours. This way we will be able to overcome shortages by inducting thousands of young people as doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, etc. The prospects of progress will be unlimited. For instance, in a few years’ time Pakistan will have more doctors than patients."

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Re: # 64
tahmed, instead of name calling me, post something, if you are bold enough about the actions of the paki army. You will not dare to, you are a muslims, and criticising jihadic killings is blasphemy.

You pathetic,

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The pakis who cry so much about kashmir have nothing to say about teh cruelty of the paki soldiers. Simple reason, these are fight between two jihadic forces, acts of religious rituals, no kafirs involved and the so called human rights quoting pakis on chowk remain silent, they have to, they are muslims, and religious acts are nothing to comment upon. Pathetic.
//////////////

99 houses demolished in Mohmand

Saturday, January 24, 2009

By our correspondent

GHALLANAI: The security forces on Friday demolished 99 houses of the militants in different areas of Lakaro tehsil in Mohmand Agency.

Sources said the security forces demolished the houses of militants in Farman Killay, Wali Kor, Azad Kor and Gharai Kamalkhel areas of Lakaro tehsil during the daylong operation. Four civilians, including three women, were killed when jetfighters bombed and strafed targets in Spinki Sheikhan village and in the Safi tehsil on Wednesday night.

The jet fighters hit the houses of Zain Khan in Spinki Sheikhan and Rasheed Khan in Safi tehsil. The wife and daughter-in-law of Zain Khan and Rasheed Khan and his wife were killed in the shelling. The jet fighters also attacked the hideouts of the militants in Spinki Tangi, Sheikhan, Shamshad Baidmanai, and Khungat Johar area

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hamidm #54 "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas."

I think we have gas warfare experts right here on chowk. Look at all the gas bags from India and Pakistan!!

New US oilicy on pakistan.

from jang

White House refuses to comment on strikes

Saturday, January 24, 2009
WASHINGTON: The White House on Friday refused to comment on reports that suspected US drones had fired missiles into presumed militant dens in the tribal belt. “As you know I am not going to comment on those matters,� spokesman Robert Gibbs told reporters despite being repeatedly pressed to discuss the reports. The strikes, which pulverised two houses in the northwest tribal belt, were reportedly the first since US President Barack Obama took office and one day after he appointed a brand new special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

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Hamidm sahib:

While you are researching what Churchill said about Pathans of NWFP, and as you have quoted him on Iraqi. I suggest you should also research how many hundreds of thousands of these NWFP Pathans and Punjabi Muslims were use by Churchill in Iraq and Arabia to kill and control them, after the fall of Ottoman Empire.

Re: # 54

Hamidm sahib:

I am quite aware of what Churchill said about NWFP Pathans. My point to Romair was for what he used the word "crushed". The best time do something like this would have been when Gandhi had failed and was down in the dumps, but then so was Churchill and therefore, he could not do. It is another thing that feasted with Jinnah with Gandhi behind the bars. But by then even Churchill knew that he lost the empire to Gandhi, and he was feasting with Jinnah on spoils of that loss.

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pakis had high hopes..

they thought barry would appoint an envoy for the k-word...

turns out, barry has appointed an envoy for afghanistan and pakistan...

pakis got their hopes up again...only to have them dashed...

Re: # 55

coolal mian,

..... other than weirdos like omar kassab and romair mian we pakis have no desire to travel to india with or without a visa ........

Kashmir will never banega Pakiland. Bring on whatever you got, we will take you on. Not only that, we will ensure your country is destroyed totally without firing a single bullet.

You guys are too stupid to survive. If you guys grow up and re-incarnate yourselves as a reasonable, moderate country whose goal is to live long and prosper, then getting Kashmir is more than possible. Visa less travel, free trade with the whole of India + Nepal + SL + BD + Bhutan is possible. But it is beyond your vision at the moment.

Re: # 50

anil mian,

.... this is what churchill said about killing iraqis :

I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.

I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes.


..... do you want me to look up what he said about collective punishment for pathan tribes in nwfp? ..... let me see if i can look that up - it was a lot worse than using drones ...........

Re: # 42

bubba mian,

........ unless that $1B is deposited directly into zardari's swiss bank account, which is down to a measely $60M, nothing will change ......

.... holbrooke, clinton and the rest of them are no match even for a pakistani patwari who lords over the land records in his tehsil ....... i can see kiyani, gilani and zardari high-fiving after seeing off holbrooke at the islamabad airport and heading back to conut their money and have biryani with sufi muhammad and nawaz sharif ...... sometimes, these pakis make me proud! ........ if i was a betting man, i would put my money on zardari - he will run circles around poor holbrooke ......

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Re: # 47

Romair:

He learnt his lessons in non-violence as a weapon when he lead a coal miner strike by Indian workers against a tax.
Subsequently, Gandhi tried and failed in attempts to use non-violence. He went into reclusion several time. Churchill wanted him arrested and put in Jail. Fortunately, the failures of both Gandhi and Churchill conicided, and that found Churchill too in political wilderness.

You miss a point no civilized society can crush unarmed non-violent people. You might like to read what Churchill had said after British attacks on innocents in Jallianwala Bagh.

majumdar #: "I have already made an offer to FM Romair. We will give up Kashmir if you accept Mullah Omar as the next Amir-ul-Momineen of Pakistan."

.......i doubt india will ever give up kashmir.....it certainly will not through peaceful resistance........it will only do so if the militant struggle is so powerful that it becomes counterproductive to india.....or if there is massive terrorism agaisnt india, to counter india's state terrorism......

......i don't see any of the above happening, anytime soon.......militancy will require a strong paksitan economy, so that pakistan can support it.......as for terrorism, while the world is ready to shut its eyes on state terrorism, there is no room left for individual terrorism.....even if the ratios are 100-1 in deaths (as we have seen in israel)......so it will be status quo on kashmir from india, for the next many decades.....

as for mullah umar......he has no chance of ruling punjab and sind.....the history of these regions is steeped in sufism, which goes totally agaisnt what mullah umar is pushing for........

however, he has a good shot at ruling nwfp.....this was part of afghanistan, anyways, and was ripped out by the british to add it to india, from afghanistan.....

.....infact, i think pakistan should federate totally, and let the mullah umars of the world run nwfp as and how they want.......why in the world is pakistan trying to enlightenedly moderate the pathans?

Romair:

I think you are taking a very narrow perspective in time and region to paint your Kashmir scenario. As far as India is concerned, it sees close to 50% participation in elections as good omen. Whereas others (the U.S.) interest in Kashmir is nothing, if they are convinced that Kashmir blow back does not come to the AFPAK region. If Pakistani generals can convince the U.S., they will get a free hand in Kashmir as they had before. The problem is either Pakistani generals are sensible that it will weaken Pakistan, or are unable to convince the U.S.

The U.S. is there to first contain and then manage terrorist in AFPAK border. It will certainly try carrot ($$$) and stick (drones) policy with Pakistan.

All that India needs to do is, what it did after Mumbai to control its testasterone. It has shown that growing its economy is more important to India.

In my view, there is a need to understand that Pakistan will implode beacuse of its internal fissures, and it will become stable because of external forces. These forces, like it or not, include the U.S. and India. China could not care less whether Pakistan remains intact or not. Pakistan's markets are minicule for China, and it has no need to rely on Pakistan for any energy or defense needs. Islamic terror that blows back from Pakistani terror camps, is limited to distan Chinese province. It knows how to deal with this terror inside its terrority. You may need to show what strategic value China derives from its help in Gawadar port and put it in the Chinese balance to show Gawadar port is more strategic for China to defend stable Pakistan.

You also talk about single sided events (when Pakistan becomes stable etc.), in doing so you assume a static region where only Pakistan is growing. You ignore that the "perceived" enemy of Pakistan will grow its GDP at about 7% p.a. Of course you can ignore it, if you think Pakistan will achieve everything overnight.

After reading you and Hamidm sahib (because I call both of you as moderates), I get the sense that Pakistan still needs to realize ground reality and quit dreaming.

In your convenient argument, you also forget that there was a precondition to the plebecite that you often talk. Pakistan was required to empty Kashmir of all Pakistanis first. Emphasis is on first. After 60 years, it will be impossible for Pakistan to honor this condition.

I have always maintained that future is in economic revival of the region, and not some land, whose part Pakistan already gave away to China; and this land be divided to create a nation-state based on religion. The sooner Pakistan is able to act on the spoken words of Zardari, the better that part of the region will be.

Pakistani doubters and testaterones should understand that India has acted against any war, especially at this time when Pakistan is at its weakest. I know your counter would be that it is because India is scared of Pakistan's nuclear capabilities.

This argument is way off the mark. Both parties and the world knows that there would not be Pakistan left if it carries out the first strike. Therefore, what would Pakistan achieve or defending with the first nuclear strike, other than its own destruction.

Pakistan's antagonicst may want it to attempt to use it, so that Islamic bomb can be takencare off, but against who? India does not want to be that bakra. Just remember "distant thunder", the last nuclear bomb was dropped in Japan and not in Germany.

Do these antagonists care if Pakistan drops it in some distant place? If your answer is yes, then I am sorry you are wrong.

......the only non-violent action that i have been able to find, against a major case of state terrorism is the action (or lack thereof) of the jews agaisnt nazis......

...i have started reading quite a bit of this history, and an amazed by how quitely the jews seemed to have accepted their fate......some were able to escape out of germany.....but all the letters i have read between and to jews,in germany, seem to have an almost fateful acceptance of what is happening to them.....

.....i don't know of any resistance movement, any terrorism carried out by them......there are no attempts to assasinate hitler or to blow up germans, to counter the massive state terrorism being committed against the jews.......

....i also think that had the germans not initiated wwII, and not crossed borders of other states (france, poland, russia etc.), the rest of the world would not have done much about the holocaust.....i doubt wwII would have occurred just to get the germans to stop the holocaust.....

.......interestingly, some of the western countries, actually restricted the jews, also, during this time......i believe usa did not allow open migration of jews.......i know that switzerland insisted that germans put a, "J" on jewish passports......switzerland was ready to accept christian german refugees during wwII, but wanted to make sure jews didn't come in......

.....and to the best of my knowledge, even after the holocaust no western country (including germany, usa or canada) offered jews land in their own territories to create a state......they offered uganda and palestine.....

.....so the jews basically were, totally, ethincally cleansed from europe, because of their non-violent-ness......

.......many people give the example of british leaving india due to gandhi's non-violent protests......this is, of course, nonsensical.....if the british were going to leave india, due to non-violent protests they would have left in 1857........

....the british left because they were bankrupted by wwII and knew that if they did not leave india, the protests would turn violent (and towards terrorism) and they would not have the resources to control them (much like what happened to france in algeria), and, thus, would have to leave anyways......so they chose the wiser path and left....

.....had gandhi carried out his protests, prior to wwI, the british would have, simply, crushed him.......much like they crushed everyone in south asia, whenever they needed to and could.......

majumdar #25: "You have one apprehension that if you wash your hands off Kashmir, India will "pressurise" Pakistan. What for?"

......i, generally, agree with your comments in this reply....

....why should pakistan wash its hands off kashmir, when it is convinced that, if given a chance, the kashmiris will not want to stay with india.....and knowing fully well that the UN has passed a resolution in regard to this.....

......the argument to this, of course, would be, that pakistan may itself collapse trying to get kashmir.....which would not be worth the effort.....a valid and pragmatic argument.....

dost-mittar #: "Let's be honest, we were never honest about holding the plebiscite, the pre-conditions were merely a convenient excuse."

......not only india, i do not know of any incidence, where an occupying army has left voluntarily...that was the whole point of what i wanted to discuss.....

....the only way occupying armies have been removed is through force.....and that is always in the form of terrorism by the occupied forces against the state terrorism by the occupying army....

.....initially, the occupying army invades and occupies a place.....the occupied people protest, and the occupying army, invariably kills many of them through state terrorism.......then the occuppied people either remain occupied....or they start a freedom struggle, much of which is based on individual terrorism to counter the occupying army's state terrorism.....if they can raise the ante high enough, the occupying army leaves......if they cannot, they remain occupied.....

........go down the list and check.....soviets carried out massive state terrrorism against afghans......afghans killed soviet soldiers but carried out terrorism to counter......ditto with americans in iraq....the iraqi resistance has carried out terrorism to counter the usa......same thing in afghanistan now.....taliban have carried out terrorism in afghansitan to break the nato forces hold and in pakistan to break their supply lines.....

......the algerians carried out terrorism agianst france, to win freedom.....the indians would have done the same against british (bhagat sing being an exmaple), but the british gauged this correctly, and left (anyone who thinks they left due to gandhi's non-violent marches has very little understanding of history)........

palestinians have done the same against israel to counter israeli state terrorism.....however, they have been unable to raise the ante enough.......if they could kill the same number of israeli civilians as israel kills of them, would you agree that israel would have given them a state a long time ago.......

.....so this brings me back to the original point....will india ever leave kashmir, if kashmiris simply hold placards and yell slogans?........would india have left kashmir, if there was some mechanism, where for every civilian kashmiri killed by indian forces, through state terrorism, the kashmiris could, immediately, kill an equal number of indian civilians in indian metros.....i.e. tit for tat terrorism.......

by the way mukti bahani carried out terrorism (supported by india) to counter the state terrorism committed by pakistan.......and raised the ante high enough, where pakistan had to leave....

......so to reiterate my point, the only successful freedom movements i know of are the ones where the freedom fighters have been able to raise the ante of terrorism to a level where it becomes counter-productive for the occuping army to continue with its state terrorism.......and it is forced to leave, as the cost of occupation becomes too high......

Re: # 40

Hamidm sahib:

"- i have had to cancel my fishing trip because this fool showed up" ....... kiyani will be really upset if holbrooke shows up and forces him to cancel his golf game with musharraf ......... and zardari likes to sleep in till noon ........."

These fishing trips, golf games and sleep till noon cost you $10 billion, till last accounting. Do you really think people with carrot ($10 Billion), and stick (drones) really care who gets what, recipients can change with alliance. Obama wants results in AFPAK (Afghanistan Pakistan) by Pakistanis if they want more money. You forget that some talibs started talking after Viagra.

Sex and money is very potent combination. Ask Bhagwan Rajnish with 95 Rolls Royaces and now comfortable in one of 186,000 incarnations toward being human again.

dost-mittar #: "First, let me correct you on the figure of 60-70,000 killed by Indian terrorism..... regarded as traitors and inter-factional fights."

....this is, totally, incorrect.....an overwhelming amount of killings are by indian security forces....there are tons of researches and statements by human rights organizations that clarify this......

there are hardly any, if any, killing in inter-factional fighting.....at any one time, the maximum amount of militants in kashmir is barely a thousand or two to three.....even if all of them kill each other the figures do not reach tens of thousands.....

there are upto 700,000 indian soldiers there......one for every 5 to 7 kashmiris......the most heavily militarised area, by far, in the whole world......these are the guys responsible for killing kashmiris.......over a 20 year struggle these forces, only need to kill around 3000 people a year, to reach the figure of 70,000

anyone who doesn't believe this, should, simply ask the kashmiris......

"I also think that it is an exaggeration to call Indian counter-insurgency as terrorism, not yet. For that, it will have to approach the level of Israeli killings in the Palestine...."

.......Indian killings are well beyond the Israeli level in Palestine....though not at the same level as US killings in Iraq....or Pakistani killings in East Pakistan......however, in the later two cases, both entities left (about to leave) the region (and in both cases, through terrorism by local forces, in response to state terrorism).......

Israelis have not killed upto 70,000 Palestinians, as far as I know.....and all the Israeli killings get much higher scrutiny than those killed, in Kashmir, by India.....and in case of Kashmir, there is already a passed UN resolution, while in case of Palestine there isn't (this, of course does not excuse Israeli actions, there).......

"Now, to your question. What would happen if Kashmiris started killing civilians in India? It has already started and attacks on the Indian parliament and Mumbai attacks are not the only instances."

The total number of people killed in these two attacks is around 200......way way below the tens of thousands killed in Kashmir......

"....a la Israeli settlements on the West Bank. However, if these actions also fail, there may be political pressure on the govt. to give in."

......one disagreement here.....Israelis have removed all their military forces from Gaza and West Bank.....they are forcing settlements though.....but not keeping an occupying army, like India is doing in Kashmir.....the rest of what you said, I generally agree with......

"...A more effective approach by the Kashmiris would be to turn to non-violent agitation......compromising with the kashmiris...."

.......i do not know of a single case where non-violence resulted in the voluntary removal of an occupying army....if you know of one, please highliht it.....as i said, occupying armies don't just get up one day and say, i see non-violent dissidents.....how stupid of us to occupy this place, let's leave.....

......kashmiris were actually quite non-violent for 40 years or so......nothing happened......india hasn't budged an inch......in fact, the violent struggle started after the jehlum river incidence, when indians killed a large number of protesting kashmiris.....even after the recent non-violent struggle, indians, in no way said they will give a plebescite to kashmir.....

.......do you, seriously, think india will give kashmiris plebescite if they continue to hold placards and shout slogans for the next ten years.......why did it occupy kashmir, in the first place, if it was merely going to back off, after non-violent protests.......

Re: # 40 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2009 7:38:44 am

hamid mian,

[.. holbrooke has great credentials,..] are you suggesting that he will be ineffective? I am afraid that he might be able to put a "Dayton" on the uninitiated pakis. They might get trapped into thinking that he is just another joe schmuck and they are drawn into the icc, just like milosovich.

[.. things will change only when knaves like zardari, kiyani and karzai decide to change them ..] i am sure you know that there is over $1B that is to be spent in FATA, an amount that is above and beyond what Joe Biden has promised with his legislation.

Pakistan gets some Dick (thanks Jang)...I mean richard holbrooke...

Twenty killed in US drone strikes in N, S Waziristan
Updated at: 2120 PST, Friday, January 23, 2009
WANA: Twenty people have been killed and several others injured in US drone strikes in North and South Waziristn on Friday.

According to foreign news agencies, the dead include four foreigners.

Three missiles were fired at a house of a man named Khalil in Zera, an area located in North Waziristan, killing 10 people and injuring many others.

The second attack was launched on a house of Dilfaraz in South Waziristan’s area near Wana which also reported to have killed 10 people.

The injured have been shifted to local hospitals.

It was the first suspected US missile strike since US President Barack Obama was inaugurated on Tuesday and comes one day after he appointed Richard Holbrooke as special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

bubba mian,

......... holbrooke has great credentials, but he is no match for the shennigans of zardari and karzai - america's ability to influence affairs in that part of the world is highly over estimated ..... oh sure, they can go and bomb a mud hut here or build a girl's school there, but it is all superficial nonsense and we are a bunch of naive fools for thinking we actually making a difference ........ things will change only when knaves like zardari, kiyani and karzai decide to change them ...... till then the taleban will continue to be a pain in the the world's collective posterior - specially in pakistan's sorry arse ......

..... hopefully holbrooke is smart enough to recognize the futility of all this activity .......... as my friend said as we drove by admiral mullen's plane parked on the tarmac at chaklala base, "these damn americans are a pain in the rear - i have had to cancel my fishing trip because this fool showed up" ....... kiyani will be really upset if holbrooke shows up and forces him to cancel his golf game with musharraf ......... and zardari likes to sleep in till noon .........

Re: # 31 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2009 4:39:28 am

Hamid mian,

Do you have any comment on this Richard Holbrooke nomination?

Beena,

Obama is indeed a hope to US & the world more so after what this world underwent under Bush.

I really dont see scepticism except among KKK-types.

As for Kashmir, the promise of good future is our main weapon.

You guys are either blind or do not want to recognize the elephant in the room. Your military/talib nexus is on the verge of destroying you internally. Shouldn't you worry more about the spread of fundamentalism in your country? Talibs closing girl schools in SWAT and banning women from working. I think that's more pertinent than giving moral sermons to American President.

Re: # 34 now that is a challenge that should not be refused?

Seriously DM, both sides donot want the plebiscite. Pakistan has given up part of kashmir to the Chinese.

With the current elections and results - in Kshmir, do you really think those guys want to be a part of the Hunting grounds of the Yanks.

I am reminded of the old hollywood movie - where this rich guy uses human beings as prey and hunts these poor guys all over his grounds. ANd he turned it into a commercial enterprise. Currently Pakistan is like that for the Yanks. The elite of Pakistan have turned vast swathes of their coutnries into this hunting ground for the yanks - in return for $$$$

Re: # 31 thanks you for gently reminding people of the purpose of this board (T).

However, I wonder if you subtle approach will reach those parts, other approaches have not reached as yet?

Maybe white spirit and a fire lighter will do the trick

hamidm:

I have already agreed to give Kashmir to you guys. What will you give in return.

And I think that your stereotype of a bhajji-eating horrible ones is outdated. You should see the line-up at the kabab place near my house here. Maybe we should meet one day - you supply the kebabs and tikkas and I'll supply kingfisher and let's see who runs out first, even without adjusting for the age factor.

Dash_Dot:

I think that nobody wants a plebiscite in Kashmir now. As far as the conditions, let's be honest. There were many UN appointed envoys to settle the conditions for plebiscite, the names of Gunnar Jarring and one Graham come to mind and it was always the Indians who refused to cooperate. Let's be honest, we were never honest about holding the plebiscite, the pre-conditions were merely a convenient excuse.

Hamid mian,

as long as kashmir is not resolved

I have already made an offer to FM Romair. We will give up Kashmir if you accept Mullah Omar as the next Amir-ul-Momineen of Pakistan.

Regards

romair mian,

..... thank you for unmasking indian state terrorism and putting up a valiant fight against senior terrorists like dost mittar and other horrible hindoos on this forum ........ it is time we pakis stood up to our scrawny bhaji-eating cousins .......

..... and tahmed thinks this is an article about obama ... fool! .... as long as kashmir is not resolved we don't care who is the president of the us or mauritania .....

Dash babu,

You are right. The jihad wont be ever even if we give up on Kashmir. The next stop will be Assam, Gujarat, Babri Masjid et al on our side of the border, Nizam-e Mustafa on their side.

Regards

the Jihadi model needs an eternal rolling squabble. Pakistan survuves on the Jihadi model - its economy is tied to this. Without it, its survival, (notwithstanding what Romair says), as a functioning viable; law-abiding state, is questionable

if kashmir is resolved tomorrow an it becomes pakistans.

Does any one with any sense realitically think the Jihadi machine will be rolled back? One must be out of their minds to think so.

romair and DM and anyoen else some questions to you: (I have alwasy asked/wondered about these)

Kashmir Plebicite:

(a)What are the conditions for this?
(b) which country currently has the best possible set of conditions to enable tihs to happen?
(c) do you really think that conditions in (a) will be fullfilled by the other ocountry no satisfying (b)?

IMHO pakistan will not be able to fulfill any of the conditions of the UN resolution. Pakistan nows this for sure, but still does this Randi-Rona (thanks to stuka for this). The simple reason is that the milatirsm seen in Pakistan has to live, and all those idiots in the LeT etc need to have some job otherwise they will turn on pakistan.

Romair#25:

"....let me ask you a rather blunt question....suppose, some kashmiri movement was able to set up a militant/terrorist force, in such a manner, that they matched every killing by the indian military of a kashmiri civilian, with an equivalent killing in india of an indian civilian......so if we assume that the indian military has killed around 60-70,000 kashmiris, they were able to kill an equal amount in delhi, calcutta, etc.........do you think, at that point, india would decide to give kashmiris their freedom, becasue it would not make sense to suffer so many losses....."

First, let me correct you on the figure of 60-70,000 killed by Indian terrorism. A majority of these killings took place by the action of the militants against civilians whom they regarded as traitors and inter-factional fights.I also think that it is an exaggeration to call Indian counter-insurgency as terrorism, not yet. For that, it will have to approach the level of Israeli killings in the Palestine or of the American killings in Iraq or of the Pakistani killings in East Pakistan.

Now, to your question. What would happen if Kashmiris started killing civilians in India? It has already started and attacks on the Indian parliament and Mumbai attacks are not the only instances. But if these attacks intensify, two consequences are likely: there may be large-scale communal rights in India a la Gujarat; secondly, the Indian govt. will be forced to repeal Article 370 and indulge in a true state terrorism intended to frighten Muslims to flee into PAK and to send retired army personnel to resettle in the valley - a la Israeli settlements on the West Bank. However, if these actions also fail, there may be political pressure on the govt. to give in.

A more effective approach by the Kashmiris would be to turn to non-violent agitation. This had started to happen last summer and, while you may not have read about it, for the first time the chattering classes in the drawing rooms of Delhi had started to talk about compromising with the kashmiris.

Romair,

#24

The answer is Possibly Yes.

Regards

Romair,

i don't think the indian public (including nearly every indian commentator on this site) understands this.....not only do they not understand the moral side of pakistan's argument, they also don't understand the actions pakistan does and will take...

As a matter of fact, I do. I do understand that Pakistan cannot call off its support to Kashmir without undermining its own legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens. I also understand why Pakistan keeps its strategic assets like LET going. Without military pressure on India there is no way India will come to the table on Kashmir. But then by the same yardstick, India's support (if any) to the Baloch and to the TTP must be understandable.

The only question is will Pakistan's measures succeed in doing what Pakistan expects it to. India has survived 20 years of militancy in Kashmir and also 17 years of sporadic terror attacks directed at the mainland starting from the Bombay blasts of 1993. And as you yourself wud admit that this period has actually coincided with the strongest economic growth. But at the same time, Pakistan's policies in Kashmir and A'stan have entailed some costs on Pakistan's. You wud be the best judge as to whether it has been worth it.

Ultimately both countries will continue to tread down the same beaten path and it is just a question of which country will give in first.

There is in my opinion one meausre that is open to Pakistan. Make peace with India and unilaterally stop military assistance to rebels in Kashmir and elsewhere without conceding the right to support the Kashmir freedom fight morally. Similar to the position of China vis-a-vis Taiwan or China vis-a-vis India over Aksai Chin.

You have one apprehension that if you wash your hands off Kashmir, India will "pressurise" Pakistan. What for? If Pakistan concedes on Kashmir what more can India ask from Pakistan. Surely you dont think Indians want to gobble up Pakistan? Surely you dont think we are that dumb, are we?

Regards

dost-mittar #: " do not think that we can completely divorce our views from our identities."

...i, generally, agree with your comments.....

....i don't think any occupying power, ever gives up occupation, unless it is forced to do so.....even the concept of non-violent protests in india, achieving success against british, is a misunderstanding....

....the british used every thing in their power to control south asia....they killed like crazy, when they needed to (1857), the ethnically cleansed liked crazy when they needed to (bengal circa 1770).......they fought like crazy when they needed to (too many to list here)....they discriminated like crazy......

no occupying power, one fine day, gets up and says, ok i am leaving....or that there are so many peaceful protestors, i am leaving.....they leave, either when they are domestically weak, or the cost of occupation, militarily (not morally) becomes too much.....

the british left india because they had been bankrupted by wwII and knew that if they tried to militarily keep india, they would not be able to stand up against a militant resistance.......

....this is why all people and leaders who have been occuppied are at one stage or the other called terrorists by the occuppier.....if they win their struggle, they are viewed as freedom heroes.....however, if they lose, people forget them and the occupying power continues to refer to them as terrorists.......

.......thus india will never leave kashmir, unless it is forced to do so.......this will happen, either when it is, internally, bankrupt......and/or when the cost of militarily occupying it is too high......

....let me ask you a rather blunt question....suppose, some kashmiri movement was able to set up a militant/terrorist force, in such a manner, that they matched every killing by the indian military of a kashmiri civilian, with an equivalent killing in india of an indian civilian......so if we assume that the indian military has killed around 60-70,000 kashmiris, they were able to kill an equal amount in delhi, calcutta, etc.........do you think, at that point, india would decide to give kashmiris their freedom, becasue it would not make sense to suffer so many losses.....

...i.e. does a tit-for-tat terrorism vs. state terrorism (if it can be sustained) actually work, to achieve freedom?

if american knew that iraqis could kill the same amount of americans, through terrorism, that americans killed through state terrorism, would america have invaded iraq......

ditto on israel.....if the moment an israeli bomb killed a palestinian civilian, if there was a mechanism that a palestinian suicide bomber could kill the same number of israeli civilians, would israel agree to a two-state solution immediately?

i.e. can massive terrorism (if possible) work against massive state terrorism, better than non-violence?

majumdar #: "Looks like you and Publius are the only guys who believe that international issues are decided over issues of morality."

...i am arguing exactly the opposite....i don't think int'l issues are decided on morality....i wish they were, but they aren't....what i was trying to explain to you was how pakistan views the situation....not from a moral point of view.....but from the actions it takes.....and why, i think, it takes them.....

......i don't think the indian public (including nearly every indian commentator on this site) understands this.....not only do they not understand the moral side of pakistan's argument, they also don't understand the actions pakistan does and will take......

.......i am not saying the actions are correct or incorrect.....however, if one wants to see how something will pan out, one cannot simply follow one's own nationalistic media and propoganda (be it pakistani or indian).....one has to practically and objectively analyse the other side.....without any nationalism......

.......in this light, i tried to explain what pakistan will do with LeT, etc......i am not saying what it should do morally.....i am saying what it may do, practically......

.....pakistan's aim will be to achieve economic stability, solve afghanistan, and keep LeT etc. in its back pocket.....it will do so, because it feels if india can totally swallow kashmir, then it can relocate its forces on the pakistan border from kashmir, and further threaten pakistan.......and it feels that india will never negotiate on kashmir, unless there is some threatening factor that will force the negotiation......

......now, in the process pakistan may go under....or it may not.....it may readjust.....like its trying to do now.....however, i am not giving a moral or a practical argument.......i am trying to explain how things are working......

'Many hope that, for a start, Obama will change the United States army’s policy of sending unmanned spy planes or drones to attack targets in Pakistan’s northern areas near the Afghan border. This serves only to feed militancy and violence, say analysts and Pakistani government officials."

Beena

The above quote iis from your article. Why is the swat predator raids so important. Pkai army is killing the fellow pakis from air for the past so many years.

The drones are ttacking the al quida supported by the isi and ..well you do not like that. See my post belwo which substantiates my claim. If teh cia guys were not there, the paki army would have let the saudis go.

It is time that the pakis like you accept the truth that isi supports the al quida and that is why the drones are used by the US.

US sleuths took part in Bara swoop

Friday, January 23, 2009
CIA provided information for raid

By Mushtaq Yusufzai

PESHAWAR: For the first time since the so-called war on terror was launched in this part of the world, the US intelligence officials personally participated in a raid conducted by Pakistan security personnel inside the lawless Khyber tribal region, said senior security officials on Thursday.

The raid was conducted on Wednesday, in which seven militants, including Saudi national and senior al-Qaeda operative Zabiul Taifi were arrested. However, the spokesmen for the ISPR expressed ignorance about the participation of the American CIA operatives in the operation.

/////////obama seem to have made some changes. Till he calls in the B52s the changes are only marginal.

ndia hails Obama remark on terror from Pak
23 Jan 2009, 1101 hrs IST, TIMESOFINDIA.COM
audio
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Welcoming US President Barack Obama's statement that Afghanistan and Pakistan are the central front in the America's war against
terrorism, defence minister A K Antony said on Friday the world must take action to tackle terror emanating from Pakistani soil. ( Watch )

The defence minister said that al least 30 terror camps are still operating in Pakistan. The terrorist outfits operating from Pakistan soil should be disbanded, he said.

"Sympathy and solidarity is fine, but what India needs is action," said Antony.

Earlier, US President Barack Obama on Friday said Afghanistan and Pakistan are the central front in the America's war against terrorism and the deteriorating situation in the region poses a grave threat to global security, PTI reported.
///////////there is hope for the peace lovers/ death for teh jihadis.

DM sb,

The problem cud have been solved in 1947-48 itself had pakistan agreed to a Hyd vs JK swap. But Pakistan in its eagreness to support the Nizam blew its chance.

Regards

Romair#10:
I do not think that we can completely divorce our views from our identities. As a person of hindu-indian identity, I am in favour of Kahsmir going to Pakistan (not independent as it would create long-term problems for the region). I was fearful of the consequences for Indian Muslims but I don't see IMs crying themselves hoarse to keep Kashmir in India, so either my fears are misplaced or IMs are willing to sacrifice their self-interest for that of the ummah.

I also agree that the problem could have been solved in 1948, either by agreeing to a plebiscite or to do what Pakistan did in PAK (or China in Tibet or even India in East Punjab) and change the demographics in Kashmir.

I do not think that Obama can do anything to change India's stance in Kashmir. India did not change its stance in the 50s and 60s when the international opinion was much more in favour of a plebiscite than it is now. And while the Indian economy is now more integrated with the West, the dependance is mutual. Moreover, India's improved econmic performance is almost entirely due to economic liberalisation and not due to any favours by the West.

Romair,

.......i discuss issues neutrally.....

.....the moral issue of kashmir has been decided by the un.

Ok, let us discuss this neutrally. Has Gaza been decided morally? or Tibet? Bangladesh? Kuwait? Iraq? Russian invasion of Afghanistan?

Looks like you and Publius are the only guys who believe that international issues are decided over issues of morality.

Regards

Romair,

Let me try to explain to you again. There is no question that the KMs want to have nothing to do with India. There is also no dispute on the fact that there are UN resolutions outstanding on Kashmir.

But that does not mean that India is going to take either of the above into cognisance. Because it believes rightly or wrongly that shud it give Kashmiris the right to self-determination two things will happen:

1. Give other provinces bad ideas.
2. Result in large scale Hindoo-Muslim bad blood

Now, I know that you do not believe any of the above to be true, but that is irrelevant what is important is what GOI believes in.

Now, India will give in to the demand for a plebiscite if and only if:

1. Pakistan drubs India in a war.
2. Extraordinary amount of Western pressure is applied, the kind we have not seen before.
3. India finds that the cost of holding onto Kashmir is prohibitively expensive.

Unless either of the above happens, India isnt going to budge an inch.

Now let us take what has happened in the last 20 years of insurgency. Inspite of whatever you guys have thrown at us, incl 26/11, India prolly has seen a faster economic growth and a better maturation of political processes (notwithstanding communal and caste divides) than it has ever in its history. Now you tell us what has happened to Pakistan in the last 20.

As I see it India's main challenge is to keep growing its economy and address two serious internal issues (Hindoo-Muslim divide in the mainland which has very little to do with Kashmir and unequal growth which is partly getting reflected in Naxalism). If we can do this, we can ride out the challenges posed by Pakistan and Kashmiri Muslims.

Regards

majumdar: 'You keep telling us Indians "Give Kashmir freedom else Talibs will take over Pakistan" but suppose we were to offer you a deal "Allow Talibs to take over Pak, we will give Kashmir to you" will you take up the offer?'

....i think your comment indicates that psyche that is currently prevalent in india....i never stated what you proclaim i am stating....please highlighted where i said this......

....i don't discuss issues based on nationalism.......i discuss issues neutrally.....

...what i tried to describe is the current situation in south asia and how the two countries are thinking and the mistakes they are making.....

....i don't think the talibs can take over paksitan......unless pakistan makes massive blunders....they can, at best, cause a huge amount of trouble.......which they are doing.....and they could do the same in india.....

.....the moral issue of kashmir has been decided by the un....it belongs to the wishes of kashmiris......if they want to join india, by all means they should.....

however, currently, kashmir is in a neither here-nor there situation.....this is what i attempted to describe.....i.e. what india and pakistan are doing, and how they may react in the future.....

i am surprised you saw that as my saying, "Give Kashmir to Us".....i would suggest you need to get out of this mode and look at the issue objectively and neutrally to understand the moves both sides are making......

Romair, this is like "Give in to me else I'll shoot myself" from Pakistan, isn't it?

#10 Posted by Romair

.......unfortunately, everyone from the indian left to center to right is unwilling to even accept that the whole world considers kashmir to be occuppied and sees it as the main catalyst of the problems in the region......

Abay gadhay, if the whole world considers Kashmir to be a problem, how come none of the major countries support Pakistan's stance? Don't pull stuff out of your a$$. The fact is that if Obama talked about Kashmir, he also talked about Pakistan and the problem it has become to the world. And guess which is more urgent?

so i think life will go on, the way it has been going on........

What makes you think so? With every passing year, Pakistan continues its descent into chaos. If not for US aid, who knows? So don't be too deluded, reality might kick you on your teeth and give you a rude awakening.

#10 Posted by Romair

.......unfortunately, everyone from the indian left to center to right is unwilling to even accept that the whole world considers kashmir to be occuppied and sees it as the main catalyst of the problems in the region......

Abay gadhay, if the whole world considers Kashmir to be a problem, how come none of the major countries support Pakistan's stance? Don't pull stuff out of your a$$. The fact is that if Obama talked about Kashmir, he also talked about Pakistan and the problem it has become to the world. And guess which is more urgent?

so i think life will go on, the way it has been going on........

What makes you think so? With every passing year, Pakistan continues its descent into chaos. If not for US aid, who knows? So don't be too deluded, reality might kick you on your teeth and give you a rude awakening.

FM Romair,

You keep telling us Indians "Give Kashmir freedom else Talibs will take over Pakistan" but suppose we were to offer you a deal "Allow Talibs to take over Pak, we will give Kashmir to you" will you take up the offer?

Regards

dost-mittar #: ...as i have always stated, the future of south asia, lies in the behavior and policies of its largest country - India - not its much tinier neighbors....the above is true for any region........

......obama, correctly, mentioned that peace in south asia from india to afghanistan is tied to kashmir.....everything from state to individual terrorism, from mukti bahani to LeT, from the separation of bengal to to the incidence in mumbai, is tied around the original kashmir situation.........you can extrapolate out a totally different south asia, had there been a plebescite in kashmir, as promised, in 1948 or so.......

......this is the big question.....will obama be able to convince india to hold some sort of a plebescite on kashmir.......i doubt india will agree......hence i don't see too much of a change in south asia......

......trying to solve south asian problems, without the largest entity, agreeing to a moral, legal, ethical (and un-based) solution to a major geographical problem, is impossible.......

usually such solutions are right in front of everyone.....however, one entity doesn't want to pursue them......and it has enough power to ensure it never gets pursued......everything else is a by-product......the same situation exists in palestine......

......by-products will always be present, if the core item remains unsolved.......this is the law of nature.......unfortunately, everyone from the indian left to center to right is unwilling to even accept that the whole world considers kashmir to be occuppied and sees it as the main catalyst of the problems in the region......as well as the fact that an overwhelming number of deaths in kashmir are due to indian state terrorism, and only a minority are due to any other kind of terrorism....it is even unwilling to ask the kashmiris, for their view, on who they think is killing them........

......the moment pakistan gets some kind of economic stability, and afgahnistan stabilizes, pakistan will readjust to the new situation and will continue to keep its non-state kashmiri fighters, in its back pocket.....in its opinion, if it doesn't do that india will, simply, swallow kashmir further, and will then move its 700k soldies on punjab and sindh's borders.....further threatening pakistan.....

....barring pakistan's economic and social collapse, there is nothing india can do to stop pakistan from doing that.....as is apparent from the mumbai incidence.....other than screaming and yelling, india hasn't been able to do anything......much like there is nothing pakistan can do to force india to give up kashmir.....ohter than screaming and yelling.....

......so india has to hope for an economic and social collapse of pakistan, which would disintegrate pakistan, and then it can negotiate with each separate entity, separately......however, an unstable pakistan is not in the interest of india, if you ask me......much like an unstable afghanistan, has totally damaged pakistan.......

the solution to the problem is a plebescite in kashmir.....india will never agree to that.....so i think life will go on, the way it has been going on........the current lull is due to the economic problems pakistan is facing as well as the situation in afghanistan.......if these are resolved, then i think it will be back to square one, in some form or manner......

Beena:

I agree with Arif Parvaiz. Obama will perhaps be an above-average President and will be a disappoint only to those who think of him as some kind of a Messiah.

As for his Pakistani and Muslim friends, hats off to them; they all remained discreet and quiet about him when mentioning them could have hurt his campaign. He himself is less concerned about hiding his Muslim-connection now and took his oath under his full name,Barrack Hussein, which he earlier downplayed. He also spoke about creating new relations with the Muslim world and called the US a nation of Muslims, next only to Christians.

As Parvaiz said, Obama's talk of bombing Pakistan was merely campaign rhetoric. Hopefully, he will not ask Pakistan to do what it cannot: he can ask them to stop supporting taleban but not to stop sympathising with Afghans fighting foreigners or Pathans supporting them. He cannot ask them to end their support for sharia-lite, which does not include burning girls' schools but does include the kind of activities undertaken by the Lal Masjid occupants, such as closing massage parlours. He cannot ask them to end their dreams about Kashmir.

What he can ask Pakistan, and hopefully will,is to crack down on the powerful elements within the state who extend active support and training to jihadis with cash, training or logistics support, close down madrassas who train jihadis and ban, really ban, all organizations that support and train jihadis for "mission kashmir", although the last one is merely a pipedream of Indians.

Silly folks, you have unbelieveable expectations from Obama! The job of each US president is to act as a puppet and do the bidding of his master. Please study the families, personalites, and their front organiztaions that run the real show.

With every presidential change, the fools dream of a rainbow; it always turns out to be a dagger in their backs.

America has created global terror, spread it beyond control using usurous dope and oil money, and wants to control everyone all the time through any means.

By reading ChowQ stuff, you'll never know the truth.

Re: # 5 Ajeya you should think why all indians want to visit Lahore than delhi ?
mr. AAkar patel of India when he visited lahore said , it is question of class. New Delhi never never lot that. Lahore is like paris europe and delhi is just cold hot dusti poor babus place.
Karachi leaves behind all others in most respects.

It is hopeful president Obama is going to give attention to pakistan and Afghnistan area. Leadership in pakistan is doing right in asking for 60 Billiuon dollars aid in non wot related things. That appears more better than just getting military aid. He will have to find solution to Kashmir if Pakistan afghnistan need to succeed in WOT. This is loosing proposition. India is not helping in WOT in A stan. Todays road opening connecting Iranian Chabahar port with Afghan and spending 1.1 billion dollars shows pathetic efforts to damage big "G".

This is for the members of the Lahore Club at Chowk:

We must dump Lahore Club


A Surya Prakash

Though their numbers are dwindling, members of the ‘Lahore Club’ (a bunch of pro-Pakistan do-gooders who always advise India to exercise ‘restraint’ after every Pakistan-sponsored terrorist attack) and some of its offshoots are still around. After lying low for some time when public anger against Pakistan was at its peak in the immediate aftermath of 26/11, these self-styled peaceniks are now crawling out of the wood work and once again thrusting their unsolicited advice on Indians, the Government of India and the political elite in our country, and urging all and sundry to avoid utterances or actions that would hinder the ‘peace process’!

Since Indians are democrats and have high levels of tolerance, some fellow citizens and their non-Indian friends have made it a habit to lecture us on the virtues of peaceful co-existence after every terrorist strike. Among the arguments often advanced in support of their pro-Pakistan stance are: India must yield and thus ‘strengthen’ democratic forces; if India takes a hawkish stance, the Pakistani Army will gain the upper hand; war will wreck economic progress and leave the population even more impoverished than it is today; and, there is no such thing as a winnable war against Pakistan because it is a nuclear weapon state.

Those who push the ‘peace with Pakistan at any cost’ line have such a stranglehold on the Indian establishment that they have successfully prevented us from retaining the gains of the wars in 1965 and 1971 and taking effective measures to secure our borders. Their latest argument is that people-to-people relations and the bonds that have developed between the civil societies of the two countries should not be weakened. Needless to say, according to them, war is no option.

We are all by now familiar with this gibberish because we have heard it from the days of partition. After Pakistan’s aggression in Jammu & Kashmir in October 1947, the Prime Ministers of the two countries met at Lahore in December that year. Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru ‘urged’ his counterpart Liaquat Ali Khan to “appeal� to the intruders to withdraw. Khan pleaded his inability to do so. He told the Indians that he ran a Government of “moderates� and that if he issued such an appeal, there was every danger of his Government being replaced by extremists!

The Indian leadership, prompted by the then members of the ‘Lahore Club’, fell for this ploy and agreed that it would be inappropriate for Khan (the man who sponsored this infiltration in the first place) to “appeal� to the infiltrators to backtrack. Thereafter, we have seen many repeats of this story leading to dozens of such examples of Pakistan’s aggression and India’s pusillanimity. Every time we got ready for the kill, rationalists came out of the woodwork and urged us to give in so that there is ‘lasting peace’ and the ‘danger of extremists gaining control in Pakistan’ is averted.

We should not fall for this gambit any more. We must end this habit of pathetic submission to Pakistan’s criminality and warmongering, but we cannot do that until we deal with these pseudo-patriots and expose their hypocrisy. If we fail to do so even after 26/11, we will forever lose the capacity to protect our borders, our democracy and our way of life, and renege on our responsibility to hand over a secure India to future generations.

Therefore, the first task should be to confront members of the ‘Lahore Club’ and its many mutations and ask them to find a more appropriate location to peddle their wares. For example, they could open shop in Islamabad and direct their unsolicited advice towards citizens of a country who are in dire need of basic political education. If these professional advisers are truly committed to peace and modern constitutional ideas as they pretend to be, they ought to read the Constitution of Pakistan or what passes for it and urge the citizenry across the border to drop the term ‘Islamic Republic’ from this basic document.

Side by side, they could suggest that provisions which require the President, the Prime Minister, Ministers and other constitutional functionaries to solemnly swear their allegiance to the Quran and to commit themselves to the preservation of what is described as ‘Islamic ideology’ should go. When the peaceniks achieve this goal, they will acquire the right to advice secular India and promote peace.

Also, once Pakistan is re-built on a secular foundation, our so-called ‘friends’ across the border will have taken the first step towards removing the dehumanising logic on which their nation rests since its inception in 1947. Since many members of the ‘Lahore Club’ are closet Communists who have hailed the dismantling of the Hindu Rashtra in Nepal and the advent of democracy in that country, we must presume that they have similar commitment to the dismantling of the Islamic Rashtra in Pakistan!

After this task is achieved, there are many more chores for these so-called ‘friends’ of India. The ‘Lahore Club’ can take up a task in which its members claim to have expertise — detoxification of school curriculum. Pakistani textbooks contain vulgar abuse of Hindus and Hinduism. Surely, the detoxification of Pakistani textbooks ought to be a noble undertaking for secular beings?

Further, many of these worthies are aware that the Pakistani state ensures that the seeds of jihadi violence germinate in young minds. Since 2007, a new Islamiat curriculum has been introduced in Pakistan and the teachings begin from Grade III and go on till Grade XII. Students are taught the full concept of jihad as also the virtues of monotheism. This is where hatred for Hindus, Hinduism and India is injected. When textbooks contain such rubbish about 800 million Hindus, how can there be harmonious people-to-people contact between these nations? Any way, who are these ‘people’ in India who are shamelessly maintaining contact with such uncivil people across the border?

We often respond in anger when the Americans or the British talk of India and Pakistan — two countries which are from a constitutional, moral and humanitarian sense, poles apart — in the same breath. Then, why do we put up with this twaddle from these so-called Indians who are hell bent on perpetuating the hyphenated approach between a modern, secular, liberal, democratic India and a medieval, Islamic, theocratic Pakistan? Those of us who value our freedom, our safety and the well-being of our children, must expose their humbug and impose sanctions on these hypocrites. What we need today is zero tolerance towards those who are weakening our resolve and rendering us vulnerable to state-sponsored terrorism from across the border. We can deal with Pakistan later.

While all kinds of people are fainting at Obama rallies, the truth is that he would NEVER have gotten elected if Bush had not messed up things to THIS extent. Obama had thought he would get a few years in the Senate under his belt before trying his luck, but the current situation was just too ripe and inviting. There have been many political figures like him before, but the timing was what ruined their careers. But for Obama the time was perfect, and he is, if nothing else, a smooth talker, at least in long-winded speeches.

And it is ironic to see the Indians swooning over him. This is the same guy that had said that Indonesia is a great example of a "democratic Islamic state" - an idiotic and self-contradicting comment to begin with. And his plans about India are slowly coming to light. As as I had predicted, they will be hard for India to stomach. Bad days are ahead for India. Here's how I expect it to go:

He has run on the platform of anti-outsourcing. But US and Chinese interests are too interlinked. So he's going to kill two birds with one stone. He's going to follow these steps:

1) Explain to the Americans that the war in Afghanistan cannot be won without the Kashmir terrorism being solved (he's already started on this).

2) Explain to the Americans that "Kashmiris" deserve democracy (he's going to leave out the fact that the Hindu Kashmiris don't want that).

3) Ask Pakiland to give up POK, and ask India to give up Kashmir to form a separate country. Pakiland would have an orgasm if he does this, because India's Loss + Pakisland's Loss = HUGE gain for Pakis (net gain for Ummah).

4) Pressurize India by politicizing the outsourcing issue and holding it over India's head.

There are a few good things that can potentially come out of this:

1) ALL parties in India will unite as one against this. Finally we will have a united country.

2) The fifth columnists would come running out into the limelight with their tongues hanging out, and then will finally be publicly humiliated.

3) Advani and then Modi would be able to mobilize a united India that would make India much stronger than it is now.

4) Hopefully, the fifth columnists will be tarred and feathered in public.

5) And most of all, maybe FINALLY the Indian government (under Modi) would be mobilized to take over POK, revoke it's illegal autonomous status, and resettle Tamils from Tamil Nadu in POK.


A lot of Muslims like Tahmed are happy that Barrack Hussein Obama got elected. I think they will eventually be disappointed. Because Obama is misreading the united will of a billion+ people (minus the muslims) .

finally, an article on obama.

Re: # 1

Some support him b/c he is darker some b/c we need change fed up with blunder after blunder of rt wing v neo con
Forget he is, has middle name Hussain ,Youngest ,Comes fom average back ground'

He has repeatedly warned stressed path to fulfillment will be very slow and painfull

Where does he promise he only hopes .

Beena ji

Indeed policies are made from behind, tho i think Obama much better than Bush, i'm not too sure about him yet, he may just be a black veneer to the same old same old, or he may surprise us with positive change... anyways regardless of the change in amreeki sadar, we need to be our own change and not wait or rely on anyone else...

you reap what you sow, its the basic law of the world, and we are reaping it... its only us that can change it not some far away sadar in another country...

the basic change in attitude has to come from within us, and the good news is that that is happening albeit slowly!!!