In Search of Political Will: Fight Against Militants in Swat

@@@@@@@@@@lets bomb all the world while they sleep , once every nation in the world is dead (except for brother saudia arab )@@@@@@@@@@@

Hmm There are 58 Moslem nations as per the OIC charter....so let us also bomb them? Saudi be left clean because there is kabba? what kind of logic is this? and why were you not bombarded by your own paki compatriots?....it all shows moslems are hand in gloves....when it comes to kafers....

Re: # 79
LOOP great plan. We forgot that Pakistan was created to bring Islam to whole world. Lets get our bombs ready , lets bomb all the world while they sleep , once every nation in the world is dead (except for brother saudia arab ) , only we will live and hence dream of creation of Pakistan i.e. Islamizing the whole world would be fulfilled.
All the world would be dead and only LOOP and team would be alive and as LOOP and team have been certified by almighty as true muslims hence there will be only muslims in this world i.e. LOOP n team and dream of great Quaid would be fulfilled

Lage raho loop main kabhi bahar nikal kar duniya mat dekhna

Its not about political will. There is an ideological war going on in Pakistan. There are many in bureaucracy , millitary , judicial system and politics who align with Taliban and its ideology. The covert sympathies of many politicians with Taliban are well known. (EX)Military had people like Aslam Beg and Hameed Gul who brought Pakistan to its present state due to there short sightedness and they still influence present military. In judicial system MY LORD was not convince and found Hazrat Maulana Abdul Aziz Ghazi ( brother of late Ghazi Shaheeeed ) as innocent since the videos in which people are waving arms on red mosque or where Hazrat maulana is giving sermons for jihad are work of CIA.
Today Hafiz Saeed has also been released, such an innocent man !
Whereas civilians and security personnel are giving there lives on one front our lords are releasing the masterminds behind this fasad on other front.
What a shame , what a hypocritical society. I wish for once all Taliban should kill all non-taliban or all non-taliban should kill all taliban. since the two can not coexist atleast we will get out of current dilemma and can start thinking of future goals

PM, they will implement it, but can they sustain and maintain it?

My prediction: No. Pakistan will be back to where it currently is in a few years.

Please note that Islam not necessarily equate with Talibanization. There are so many Ulemas who condemn Talibans.

i almost agree with these views. Actually its the duty of the government to take steps. Opposition parties can raise the voice although they are not perfoming well aswell. In my opinion its a great opportunity 4 coliation government to crush these militants but they unfortunately donot knw hw 2 govern. BUT v hav no other way except democracy so v hav 2 giv them the chance. I hope & pray 4 operation success.

This is a really well researched, well written and, well, welcomed article. The question is... do the Muslims of Paksitan (and other Pakistanis too, of course) have the will to implement what is even Islamic if it is against those who have come to co-opt the "Islamic" space in both politics and everyday life.

mr khalid bhatti you forget that these ppl are trying to enforce islamic law in their area, which was the whole point of creating pakistan but in just a short 60 years we seem to have forgotten that...so to remind the politicians, fellow pakis and the world at large, muslims in india voted for a seperate Pakistan on the slogan of "Laillahaillallah" they wanted a muslim state run by the law laid down in the Quran and the principles taught by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)
they didnt vote for a seperate muslim land so they could drink, kill fellow muslims, dance on TV and watch indian films at home. its pity that such a huge sacrifice is being wasted and such a huge promise to Allah is being broken.
so everyone as a muslim must support the ppl of swat and not just swat ppl but muslims anywhere in the world who fight for the dignity of islam and an islamic state.
sadly the state of muslims is such that they are writing such filth ... and then there are other muslims who are follwing in their step.
please examine your faith before its too late!
and do not worry about the people of swat, the taliban or the lal masjid martyrs, their death is a higher victory and their sacrifice will not be lost..
it is Allah's promise that Islam and Islamic Law will prevail all over the world and no such article nor any superpower can fight that promise.
Insha-Allah very soon we will see true muslims controlling pakistan in light of quran and sunnah.
May Allah guide all muslims who are lost.

tahmed mian,

..... as much as i hate being a moslem, i am glad grandpa gopinath had the gonads to be circumcised ...... based on the sampling of horrible hindoos on this forum i would rather be a mohammaden ......... these guys are really weird !

.... by the way, are you going to take part in the dharna to restore old droopy? ..... i just heard saad rafiq on tv and it seems the boys from gowalmandi are backing out ............

#76 Posted by tahmed32 on
yes yes yes.... but if one is not truthful, one will be born in a situation where all you follow, hear and understand is lies.... and a Islamist seems to be a very good match...

Goldfinger: if you are not good in this life you will be re-born as a low caste dowry-less female hindu from one of the BIMARU states!!

Re: # 74
Yes ... you are nearing enlightenment.... I know all that ped0philia had not affected you completely .... maybe there is a chance for you still :)

Re: # 72 guru: "Bakiland's real problem is non-state, non-territorial or non -local actor called Islam. it's a conspiracy hatched in 7th century in a desert cave of Arabia."

Yes you are right...darn why didn't everyone think of it before...all problems would've been solved if everyone were following 5000 yrs old pagan rituals practicing thugee, praying to Kali Maa, performing human sacrifices, drinking pale bodily fluids daily!

Desi Bhai Logo Chod do in ga..duon Ko! These days they are coming to Amrika as Christian priests with names such as Rich Ali Khan. The churches here are deputing them to Londonabad after arriving here and getting the gren cards. They are the front-line allies against the Jihadis in Anglosthan.

Kya Re Bhatti,

Tu Kya Hain Arabon Ki Tatti?

What is not organically locally grown is at best doosaron-ki tatti. How so well you package it still remains a tatti.

Indian democracy is not perfect and not delivering because it is not completely local. A democracy based on Panchayat Raj would be the local democracy.

Bakiland's real problem is non-state, non-territorial or non -local actor called Islam. it's a conspiracy hatched in 7th century in a desert cave of Arabia.

Explaining the increase in CIA activity over the past month, Mr Riedel added: "In the aftermath of the Mumbai attack the US and the UK intelligence services now have to regard Lashkar-e-Taiba as just as serious a threat to both of our countries as al-Qaeda. They have a much more extensive base among Pakistani Diaspora communities in the UK than al–Qaeda."

Information gleaned by CIA spies in Britain has already helped thwart several terrorist attacks in the UK and was instrumental in locating Rashid Rauf, a British-born al-Qaeda operative implicated in a plot to explode airliners over the Atlantic, who was tracked down and killed in a US missile strike in November.


////from pavo post////////////

Mumbai attack has changed the terrorist profile. for teh first time isi is assigning terrorist tasks of al quida to the kashmir jihadis. this obviously in return for the support they are providing to keep the swat and other areas under jihadi control to keep the strategic depth notion still alive.

Bhatti, you need to slow down a bit.

Haste and sufi-ism does you injustice.

The Sultans tried their damndest to turn things around. But the culture and civilisation was strong and it survived the onslaught.

here is one side of it

"n 1193, the Nalanda University was sacked by Bakhtiyar Khilji;[21] this event is seen by scholars as a late milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. Khilji is said to have asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it. The Persian historian Minhaz, in his chronicle the Tabaquat-I-Nasiri, reported that thousands of monks were burned alive and thousands beheaded as Khilji tried his best to uproot Buddhism and plant Islam by the sword,[22] and the burning of the library contin­ued for several months and "smoke from the burning manuscripts hung for days like a dark pall over the low hills.".[23] When the Tibetan translator Chag Lotsawa (Chag Lo-tsa-ba, 1197–1264) visited the site in 1235, he found it damaged and looted, with a 90-year-old teacher, Rahula Shribhadra, instructing a class of about 70 students.[24].[25]

Ahir considers the destruction of the temples, monasteries, centers of learning at Nalanda and northern India to be responsible for the demise of ancient Indian scientific thought in mathematics, astronomy, alchemy, and anatomy.[26] Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing.[citation needed]
[edit] "

The state is yet to recover from this - the region is yet to recover. In Pakistan you Taxila itself. Destroyed by the islamic hordes.

Maybe your case would be stronger if you did try to sentimentalise historical facts,. as some else here said, no point going back into history for all you do is dig stuff you would not want repeated or something to this effect.

#68 Posted by krbhatti on
Bhatti Mian,

The question of values and culture is not so simple. You still don't understand that in the beginning and till those guys started learning things in 1000AD or later from India (again those, like Omar Khayyam, Ibn Sina, Al Kindi, Al Beiruni who were considered kafir by pure muslims), arab/muslim inavders were much less civilized (compared to those cultures, like Persia or India, which they were invading).

In the beginning the Ghazis/invaders of Islam were almost same as Taliban of today compared to rest of us. All of them were fanatic, carried a team of imams and were committed to convert people to Islam and Islamic culture (and loot slaves and wealth). Neither Indians nor Chinese, not even mongols ever inavaded people with religious committment. Mongols when turned into Mughals got this disease (earlier they were looters, killers but not in the name of religion, that was not norm for them). You are wrong if you say initially Islamists didn't do this- there and there. That is not because Islamists didn't try, but because it was not possible. Ghauri didn't win his first battles, not because he wanted to lose, but he couldn't. Akbar couldn't convert Birbal and todermal to Islam, not because he didn't want or didn't try, but because he couldn't. Birbal and Todermnal were smart and important enough to keep him away (but not everybody was so fortunate), initially and later his zeal somewhat faded.

Again, i don't mind if you convince your mind that all this is randi rona, because till people will do this randi-rona in front of your eyes you will keep on painting taliban of yesteryears in your arbitrary ways. If taliban of today win over pakistan and India, there will be people who will say exactly what you are saying now. The problem is that even omar khayyam and other intellectuals if born now as muslim will not be able to say what they said then, because now it is a huge group ego, at that time it was still a young group ego.


[[

BTW, akbar wanted to convert birbal and others not to Islam but his deen e Ilahi, which was the his attempt to unify the principals of all religions, and which people rejected exactly for the same reasons

]]

It is documented that initially Akbar wanted them to be converted to Islam, but in later days he became less interested in Islam and created his own Din-i-ilahi, and it was again a middle path. Tansen converted to Islam and not to din-i-ilahi.


Lastly about copts: You shuold read your sources again, the whole reason of conquest of Egypt was to spread Islam? Do you know that? And if you are going to convert people into Islam, what is the local culture you are trying to preserve. You think Islam is one of the most refined and advanced religion of 50,500 AD, where culture is completely detached from religion. And you can think that about Islam???

The reason why people do not get converted is the treaties, the way those people helped invaders initially and such tactics used by invading rulers and the second reason is that things were volatile and people were fighting all the time so winning on war fronts or maintaining empire was becoming more important than converting everyone under rule to Islam at one go. Christian and muslims were fighting in egypt, middle east and europe, In india almost every body was interested, that included mongols, theire descendants mughals, persians, greeks, turks and whatever you can think of.





Lastly, if you can not think of past properly when you have chance, don't assume you can think about future properly.

Re: # 64

Pinku Mian,

Yes, it was norm of the day throughout the world and that spilled into India from which Indian people could not defend themselves. We can do as much RR about it but yes, indians could not defend themselves.

On your second question of keeping values, there are two set of approaches. The first one which was adopted by the initial Islamic invaders was not to harm the local values. Hence copts in Egypt are still there, jews till the first world war had more confidence and sense of security in islamic lands than anywhere else in the world. And yes agree with it or not, but yes the huge mass of people i.e. India (including north india) did carry on their values. If the ghanavis and ghouris killed many, so did mongols. But it is part of the game that is empire buildings...

BTW, akbar wanted to convert birbal and others not to Islam but his deen e Ilahi, which was the his attempt to unify the principals of all religions, and which people rejected exactly for the same reasons.....

Ok, my fault... u did that already....

I took the cue from #65....

Yaar Pinku badshah,

Next time, can you please refer to what r u replying to and what post you are commenting on.....

Re: # 64
Pinku - this was one of the most lucid and dispassionate summary of events that you mentioned. This is where Islamist
wars stand out even amongst the barbarity of the years gone by.

Congratulations.

Bhatti ji could only come up with an arguement that this was all 'randi-rona'.
Congratulations to him too :)

#59 Posted by krbhatti on

[[
Suffice is to say that this invasion pattern was the norm of empires in those days.
]]

Bhatti, your answer is illogical. "norm" of the day doesn't tell you what is appropriate. Taliban style ruling may become "norm" of the day and things will be god then?? Right?

So invaders killing and converting people was norm of the day for ISlamic tribes but not for Indians. And who cares what is "norm of the day" for them. They invaded persia and turned it into their "norm of the day" style people. They invaded India, tried to convert it to their "norms" by all means, couldn't because here they dealt with too many people, half of them in the south they couldn't rule most of the time.

Again, it is stupid to claim that

[[
Keep in mind that whereever Islam went, it allowed the locals to keep their values intact.
]]
Only fools will see history like that. The question again is what Islam didn't do to kill local values. Start from invasion of persia and roam around the world and you should get the answer. Despite the fact that every body else had much better culture than your so called norm of the day invaders, local civilization and culture was hurt badly because of strong tribal influence.



[[
You and a billion hindus is a good example of that. You would not have been here if there was no tolerance in Islam.]
]]

What is it that muslim rulers didn't do to force them to convert. The credit that you still see so many hindus go to the Indian population which was beyond Arab counting all the time and the fact that they could rule south most of the time. North they corrupted merrily, even Akbar tried to convert Birbal, converted Tansen and forced todermal but failed to convert him. From killing, to snatching land, to giving high position every thing was used to convert people.

LeT = Sarkari funded Jehadi,

Talibanis = non-sarkari funded Jehadi


Now there is going to be an automatic merger of the two.

Paki Elites thought that their sarkari funded jehadis are going to follow their diktats.

Now this illusion is breaking and soon the monster is going to go after them .including the sarkari ones they once trained and funded!!!

General Hamid Gul Zindabad!!

Hamid Gul for the first PM of Taliban Republic of Pakistan!!

Bhatti.....oopps apologies KB!

BHati (for a moment forget the RR thing...and lets get back to your topic)

So its okay for people to be called Kafirs, kafr, kanjars etc. But okay to be called a dirty islamic terrorist, or whatever!

If you feel offended by the terminology used by the literalist Islamists, and their choice of words/phrases and anecdotes to describe you this article is for you

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/freedom-of-speech-rac e



(a)regularly uncover new "outrage" over Muslim extremists referring to dirty kaffirs as less than pigs, etc.

(b)Modern civilisation depends on these shared norms and values.



But it point (b) which the literalists do not seem to enjoy much.

For Ambassador Holbrooke



Wednesday, February 11, 2009
Amina Masood Janjua

Dear ambassador: I am writing to you on behalf of the aggrieved people of Pakistan who have suffered tremendously in the last eight years. They have deep wounds and scars upon their hearts, incurred by their country's participation in America's war on terror which has caused many grave human rights violations within Pakistan.

//////from jang of today/////////////

My dear Amina,

When millions were slaughtered in east pakistan none of the pakis cared, even the amdur rahman report is not published and you did nothing about it.

When samia sarwar was murdered you di nothing.

Take it from me amina, the human right violations that you tak about today is built into teh pak ideology. That si why there was ethnic cleansing in pakistan, in 1947 there were 15 percent hindus and none remains.

When ahmadias were tattacked you did nothing. When hoodood was passed you did nothing.

Now you have the stupidity to write to hol;brook and say that paki human rights violations are due to teh yanks.

Amina, read what is TNt and you will find that is the source of human rights violatons.

Re: # 52

BJ Kumar,

Half way reading your post, I realized that it was all Randi Rona (thanks stuka). Suffice is to say that this invasion pattern was the norm of empires in those days. And the invasion from north was bound to happen, with only difference that invadors from north would have been non muslim, if not muslims... Just like many invasions of pre islamic era...

Re: # 56

NKG,

I know my history. I know why Ghaznavi came and why Ghori came and why Muhammad bin Qassim came. It was an imperial expansion and nothing else... But remember, this was the norm of empires in those days...

Re: # 51

Urstruly,

Your logic is flawed. When the constitution says that people of pakistan have the land, then how will of people is exercised? Apart from private properties, which state cannot take, the state possession is the possession of the land by people. Or you want to say that on state land whoever wants and whenever wants can construct anything that he/she likes?

And I do have the logical reasons to invoke the Lal Masjid and swati Mulla's incidences. They are/were agents of anarchy. They reject the accepted way Dawa to convince people for their cause, and instead take out lathis and Ak-47 to make people subordinate, which the kharijis did. So, they have no sympathy from me. and I say this loud and clear...

Re: # 30
Krb...
That is what Islamic version of history says...You need to study the spread of buddhism...
Persian or Indians never invited muslas (arabs or central asians) though Pakis are made to believe that muhammed bin kasem was invited by Sindhis....
The benchmark of a social system, is what it contributes to society and how it reacts to difficult situations...
the pattern accross the musla world does make people believe that, Islam/muslaism has brought anything but social indiscipline and destruction of civilian institutions...(yester years Taxila university is todays centre of spreading hatred...)

religious ga.dugiri is inhumane because who am I to to tell the aborigines of Australia, natives of Amazon what is the best for their spiritual growth. If they find solace at the feet of local kalubais, Yellama Devis, mother Amezona or Pacefica, who am I to tell them that some moon good of desert land is "real" god. The real problem is I have not found myself and I am trying to search myself in distant, alien and long dead era, culture and verbiage.

Let bakiland be an example of good governance, material prosperity and equality first and then preach others. All religions need to be first judged by the behaviors of its adherent.

A dear friend, PhD in AI at CMU, who grew up on a Hare Krishna commune conveyed that

-the basic problem with Abrahamic religion is the book and emphasis on reading.

- Any human creation has limited capabilities. The written word cannot be panacea for all levels of consciousness.

- When it is imposed on locals in alien language with alien cultural trappings then it is merely subjugation of local culture.

When I asked him why do you carry the Japa mala and do this sanskrit (BTW he was German) names of gods who I think are not local to you, he answered that

- the Japa I did from my child hood and the real purpose is to lose even "wording" of the chant ...
- this frees my mind so that inspirational creative thoughts can take root ...
- it makes me blissful (right thought at right time and place), confident and free.

"Every human society chooses for itself a set of values according to which they live. Some take it from religion (like equality of all men who are born, which can be readily understood through abrahmic religions), and some take it from their own historic experiences. So what is wrong if a society combines religion with culture to arrive at its code of life."

Lot of verbiage to camouflage real exploitive imperialistic g.ndugiri. It's the same Abrahamic Ga.dugiri which sold human slaves on the city chowks and priced them according to the size of their boobes in case of females.

When this was happening circa 345 AD onwards in Abrahamic land a village idiot or a retard (pl listen apana desi G Murarilal Lakhanpurkar aka Murad) with Kshudra lineage could transform himself with right understanding of spirituality in the company of a Guru into Mahakavi Kalidas.

Weak desis coopted with imperialistic forces to rewrite their history. I have not read the article but I am sure it must be yet another prose of Darbari Ga.dugiri. That is why I am telling Pinkus and Laddus to bring out the truth of who were ancestors of Iqbal and Dracula MAJ.

Bakiland slowly will turn into Somalia when it will be deprived of gas fields of Baluchistan. Political Islam need to be vanquished for humanity to survive.

Ghajis (talibanis) are merely ganj-is, they can be taken care of with drones but real g.ndus are the so called moderates... they are actually moderators who direct the Jihadi fanaticism to the soft targets such as Hindus of India. You need to squeeze them economically.

Re: # 21 Bhatti sahib

[Keep in mind that whereever Islam went, it allowed the locals to keep their values intact. You and a billion hindus is a good example of that. You would not have been here if there was no tolerance in Islam.]

Bhatti sahib, needless to say, perhaps you expect folks like I to become "tahey-dil-se-shukraguzaar" to folks like you -- and perhaps you may feel a justification for it – after all we perhaps would not be around had not the Mughals (and others) “allowed� the seventy percent of the population (or so) to remain Hindus and “only� converted thirty percent of them (although in increasing numbers over time).

Somehow, however, folks like I do not share that sense of gratitude that you expect us to feel and if I were to guess, my ancestors did not feel that way either (leaving aside the issue of logistics which would have made a hundred percent conversion VERY difficult).

Instead, in some ways, I feel gratitude toward those ancestors of mine who were able to survive the onslaught of the Islamists on their religion, their culture and their very lives! It could not have been an honorable life for them – living under those conditions – made into the underclass in their very own land!

The courageous of any land are those folks who – when faced with difficult odds – face those odds squarely. It requires real courage to face one’s own limitations and the courage to admit when wrongs are committed and it requires the courage to correct your course when you are clearly off-course.

In my view, the courageous folks were not the ones who capitulated to the sword and converted in order to save their lives.

The courageous ones were those who GAVE their lives without such capitulation – and in the process, although many of them lost their lives, they retained a bit of their honor!

My ancestors were courageous folks who kept their religion because they believed in their religion! Did yours?!

Many others did not!

I have no beef with “your� Middle-Eastern culture and “your� Middle-Eastern lifestyle and all the “fringe benefits� that it may have brought to you all. However, what “you� brought to the subcontinent was an army of invaders – make no mistake about it.

Those who are invaded do not automatically see virtue in what the invaders do (the act of invasion). So forgive us for not seeing any virtue in it.

It is a bit like the Iraqis not seeing virtue in US invasion (even though, unlike the Middle-Eastern invasion of the Indian Subcontinent, the US invasion was at least motivated, even misguidedly, by the desire to free up those folks from a cruel dictatorship).

No, the Iraqis did not see any virtue in the US invaders!

Guess what, people like I do not see any virtue in the acts of aggression your great-great-great uncles may have perpetrated a long while ago. If you had common sense and some humanity in you – it would be a matter of shame for you, too – not of misplaced pride!

And as I pointed out in #18, there is a lot of hypocrisy in the positions taken by the “liberal� Pakistanis – most of which comes clothed in words of ambiguity. I consider your #21 a shining example of the same ambiguity.

Consider the Swat debacle nothing more or nothing less than a simple reenactment of that same old routine of invasion! Those of us in Hindustan were not “pure� enough in the eyes of your ancestors – perhaps YOU are not pure enough in the eyes of these Swat folks!

If you praise the deeds of one set of invaders – consistency demands that you praise the deeds of the other - who are merely repeating that same very ages old routine - in equally fulsome ways! Otherwise, you are being inconsistent to the point of dishonesty.

Unfortunately, Pakistani “liberals� are a highly inconsistent lot, IMHO!

I wish you and yours good luck in surviving the onslaught of the latest band of “purists� from Swat! I am sure my ancestors felt EXACTLY the same way when THEY were under attack by their contemporary versions of “purists�!

Re: # 6 KR Bhatti

You should educate yourself before you further corrupt the case you are building to safeguard the interests of a corrupt ruling elite. You write:

"The land is a state property and it is within the discretion of the state to utlize this land to built mosques or whatever. It does have the authority to destroy the mosques and built it somewhere else."

Lets assume for the sake of argument that at the time 8 mosques were destryoyed in Islamabad and Jamiah Hafsa Scool girl massacre took place, Pakistan was not being ruled by a maglomaniac dictator and the rights of state and the people were being governed by a constitutional social contract. In that case the Constitution of Pakistan would be the reigning document to exercise the said rights. But the Constitution of Pakistan with its first claus attributes land to the people not to the government. The law of Eminent Domain in Pakistan exists as a statutory law and not a constitutional right of state. If government had to exercise the law of Eminent Domain to destroy those mosques then there is legal procedure to do that. Government has no blanket right to enfore Eminent Domain by using full force of brute state machinery and massacre thousands in the process.

Like I said Bhatti, you shouldn't have brought this angle into the equation. The corrupt ruling elite and haramkhor fouj has no moral and legal legs to stand on this issue.

As for the the assertion that Mullah need to contest election and change governing laws - I don't know under whivh rock you live but constitution of Pakistan has every law that has been demanded by so called Mullahs. The innocent school girls of Jamiah Hafsa laid down their lives while reminding corrupt ruling elite that it is them who need to excerice the constitution to its letter. That was all the fight was about.

Look, before the massacre of Jamiah Hafsa the corrupt ruling elite was ruling Pakistan just the way they wished it. People had been tolerating their corrupotion, greed, and lawlessness for decades and everything was business as usual. The massacre of Jamiah of Hafsa was the declaration of war of a corrupt state authority on the people of Paksiatn. That massacre is the pivotal point in our history; nothing will be the same from now on.

"Every human society chooses for itself a set of values according to which they live. Some take it from religion (like equality of all men who are born, which can be readily understood through abrahmic religions), and some take it from their own historic experiences. So what is wrong if a society combines religion with culture to arrive at its code of life."

Lot of verbiage. It's the same Abrahamic Ga.dugiri which sold human slaves on the city chowks and priced them according to the size of their boobes in case of females.

Dear Bhatti Sahib

Well written article with all the good intentions but like other writers Sir forgive for saying this you too have fallen in the same trap by using Islamic history to make your case. Allow me to explain.

You correctly identified the Kharaji movement as being one of the first rebellions based on differing interpretations. It was not just a simple matter of difference of opinion and they lived apart, according to the Kharaji followers there was no room for differences and if any person did not agree with their interpretation then that person and his family were Waajib ul Qathal,they could be killed nd their entire family killed or taken as slaves. Reason why I state this example is to make the case that there will always be fringe groups who claim superiority and some would also espouse the use of violence. Since this particular ideology has survived the passage of time and many incomplete campaigns its safe to assume that it has a high probability of surviving this new wave of opposition.

Religion needs to be eased out of our political, economic and social lives, that is the only viable option. If we continue to clash with others based on religious differences or argue with the other in their chosen language of religion then we will commit the same mistake made by others and this phenomena will continue to survive and thrive in areas where they find refuge.

Ana writes in her ilog "I have never denied that Pakistani Christians are second-class citizens. They are."

Nonsense. There are no "citizens" in Pakistan how can there then be "second class citizens"? Pakistan is composed of the Army command, some sprinklings of feudal/industrial elite that have made pacts with them, and the mass of slaves, most of them Muslim, few Christians....

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Please do not disgrace prostitutes by associating them with the assorted thugs: the US elite, Al Qaeda and the Pakistan Army....

Arjun-39 died in his toilet yesterday but was immediately recreated as Arjun-40.

What entered his mouth during that thirty-ninth death has come out in his interact (see #43).

Kulharee saab,

First of all as a society with more than a thousand years history, it is advisable to talk from a vintage point that is undisputed. Talk of Kharijis and their treatment is such a point.

As far as Bangladesh is concerned, remember initially there demands were provincial autonomy, financial independence, Respect for their culture and so on, which were right and just demands. They were suppressed by our geniuses and that is when they picked arms in self defence, and this self defence ultimately demanded full freedom. So the monopoly of violence concept cannot be applied here..

Hope that this explains...

Bhatti Sahib, a very well argued case for how to handle the militancy problem. In case of militancy the State might have a monopoly (you also term undisputed right) to use violence, but can this be applied to political problems such as the liberation movements (e.g., Bangladesh, Kashmir, etc.). Reading your article a reader may get an impression that somehow the genocide of 3 million Bengalis was permitted under the historic precedents set in 7th Century Arabia. I think by looking backwards that far to a society that is so different from ours, it may create more problems than we wish to solve. Today’s problems should be solved in today’s context and not what Hazrat Ali did in Kufa.

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Trichmir,

I have never withheld my views regarding the geniuses of our army who created them in first place. But the thrust of my article is to move ahead. No doubt that these genarals should be brought to justice and I have written about it in my previous article. But this does not mean that the monster, which is on loose should be forgotten as its threat is immediate one. And they are kharijis, because of their ideology and not because of who taught them (though they should also be held accountable as I said above).

No, the real prostitute is the Pakistani Army and all these Jihadis her illegitimate children who are just pursuing their mother's profession. Do people still remember how one great General of Pak army Hamid Gul, alongwith his Arab buddy Osama, had tried to capture Jalalabad and the whole operation was ended in a total disaster? People will still mock him by calling him Fateh Jalalabad. All these Arab and other foreign "Mojahedeens" were brought to Afghanistan by the CIA, Pak army and the Saudis-not by the Pashtuns or Afghans.

The fact is very simple, these Jihadis were sent in the army run Madrasas throughout NWFP and FATA where they were taught religious intolerance, hatred against the people of all other faith, bigotry and every evil ideology in order to use them for army's own purpose. Now they are just doing what they were taught, so what is all this bitching and moaning about.

Don't blame the Arabs or even the Jihadis who in my opinion are only a victim of the policies of their own country. Blame the state for destroying the lives of its hundreds of thousand of civilians, blame the state that instead of giving them proper education, jobs and other facilities it used them as gun fodder.

Your example of Kharjis is irrelevant here because Hadrat Ali or the state had at least not created them in the first place. First the state should apologise the whole nation for its crimes that it committed against its citizens, esp. those of Pashtunkhwa.

Sorry for my not so perfect English, we were not taguth english in our Madarsa.

The story of Dulla has been poetically treated by many, and has been written in style known as Saddaan (similar to Mirza by Peelu and Bhagwan Singh). The above incident is thus narrated: The term Mirza, is used for a member of a royal family or a member of the highest aristocracy. ... Binomial name The Vann (Punjabi:ون or ਵਣ) or, jar in Sindhi language, J�l or Peelu in Hindi language (Salvadora oleoides) is a small bushy evergreen tree found in India and Pakistan. ... Captain Bhagwan Singh (1916 – 1995) was a diplomat, a radical student leader, army officer, Indian Administrative Service officer, High Commissioner of India to Fiji and a devoted social worker. ...


Tera saandal dada maareya, ditta bhore vich paa, Mughlaan puthhiyaan khallaan laah ke bhariyaan naal hawaa.

Bhati ji,

Dulla Bhatti was a well known folk hero of Punjab who protected innocents from these Jehadi fanatical.......perhaps that answers why you oppose them......

But, remember time has come to fight physically against them like Dullah Bhatti and not sit at home........

Bhattis were kshatriyas from Bhatti Tribe.

Bhatti ji,
You are avoiding the main issue I raised.

Calling me Maulana Fazlu Category does not answer my question!!

No dash Dot,

I don't think that Bhattis were of priest class. Bhatts may be but not Bhattis...

biggest flaw of present followers of islam is self deception(i do not know whether it is part of holybook or hadiths).In the begining the skirmishes in Swat were said to be by RAW agents (RAW in in it's wildest dreams can not achieve what taliban have done).Now after fazlullah has beaten Pak army and hopes of retrieving swat are fast receding,it is portrayed as intra islamic fight for a noble cuase.true,winner takes all in islam!!

#27

Shariah is the law of UAE. Have you seen anybody beheaded or hands cut there.. There explanation is very modern in this regard...

BTW Bhatti - the BUtts, bhattis, bhuttos etc were all from the priestly class before conversion - just thought I would provide this information for the heck of it (T) ;)

Re: # 27 maybe there is a requirement for a KJB type of thing - so that just as latin disappeared as a main language (and along with it the tag of cultured etc etc etc) - then you could see the reinforcemnet of the what yousay below.

First one include people like me, who consider it as fitna, and who believe that this should be crushed. If someone wants any change in law or want to change the policies, they should come forward, convince the people, get elected in parliament and change the laws.

Can the law & policies be changed? Aren't they immutable and unchangebale?

NKG,

No I am not semi Beduin. You cannot think of any set of values without it binding it to land, hence your calling me semi beduine. The problem is with the psyche which is nurtured through brahmans and considering the land as some sort of devi. Afterall, people in hinduism thought that there dharam will be bhrisht if they went outside India... You are not capable of thinking outside the mental block of hinduism...

NKG,

Yes in Egypt, Copts welcomed it as saviours. In Persia, people welcomed it because they were oppressed by previous regime. In India, people in hordes converted, and the rest continued to practice their religion. If this is not true, then why you are still a hindu...

Khalid Bhatti....
Mr. semi Beduin (some part of your name is Punju though), so what you expect muslas in Pakiland to behave like? Punjus, Sindhis etc...and not like musla?
What you are experiencing in Pakistan today is in total compliance with Islamic history. Like other victims Islam like Egypt,Persia.... If islamic value system has not captured everything of Pakiland, the blame should go to the Brits and Indian rule for brief period of time and un-islamic work of Sir Ganga Ram etc...
Another 30/40 years, Pakistan shoule be pure islamic nation, if International presence and influence become thinner...and that version of islam will be pure islam not some imaginary one you are trying to propagate,like non-inflammable petrol...

Re: # 26

Laddu,

Islam is a progressive religion and has different meaning in different eras. There was once Jizya, but there is none today. There was once slavery, and there is none today. The early muslims did not raise arms untill they formed themselves into a state. And according to the norms of state in those days they did what states did. But why I am telling you this.. You are a person of Moulana Fazlullah category, who do not have any sort of common sense....

Re: # 22

Dash Babu,

This habit of bowing to arab and even persians is unique to muslims of sub continent perhaps due to long history of bowing to a specific class. After becoming muslims, they just changed them to arabs and persians from sanskrit speaking barhmins. This deference was more acute in previous generation. Current generation is still into it but will get over it because of events unfolding and due to avaialbility of exposures which were not there before.

As far to your second question regarding the nature of this mayhem, there are two school of thoughts:

First one include people like me, who consider it as fitna, and who believe that this should be crushed. If someone wants any change in law or want to change the policies, they should come forward, convince the people, get elected in parliament and change the laws.

Second school of thought is the one which believes that the use of violence is justifiable to achieve its goals. This is Fazlullah, Baitullah and people who support them including the opologetic like Urstruly. Such people did exist in islamic history, and were called kaharjin. They were crushed, and this exactly is the line of action that the first school of thought mentioned above follows.

So the two POV are actually reformation through will of people (first one) and through use of gun (which people like urstruly knowingly or unknowingly suuport)...

"We in Pakistan are dealing with reactionary and narrow minded approach of a segment of society which by no stretch of the word are in majority."

Bhatti ji,

Sometimes I feel like you are like a small child.
Innocent and gullible.

Remember, Islam began with a SMALL minority set of people who were fanatical about their aims. It grew out of imperialist conquests of other tribes and lands.
The present day Islamic Jehadists have their faith in the success of that approach and are only biding their time.
They know that the so called majority of people abhor violence, but are afraid of violence and would bend down to accept peace and submission if they go the Rambo-way like the first generation of Islamic followers.

Hamid Zaid talks about these Gazis all the time.
Why?
Because he knows that these Ghazis moulded the direction of Islamic imperialism.
It was not pacifists who changed the history- but these fanatics who decided the direction of Islam.

So, if you tell us mushriques that these modern day Ghazis would be taken care of then I can only laugh at you- because they would first take care of you!!!
The history of Islam is open for all to read now on the internet. We know the hollowness of these claims by 'moderates'.
It is time we did something to protect ourselves- IT is also time you did something to protect yourself from these gazis.!!
Let us join hands and eliminate them- stop trying to protect them.

Re: # 10
Maj dear,
"Are you implying that the Taliban of Pakistan and Afghanistan are not true Muslim mujahideens but Zionist-Mirzaee agents 'cos these people consider themselves to be the truest Muslims?"

What THEY think is their affair, what I'm saying is that their actions must been seen under the Qur'anic microscope. No prophet's companions indulged in murderous suicides or destroyed reading and writing. Remember the first word revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) was IQRA (read with understanding).

But I guess, when pushed up against the wall, what choice does a dying man has except fight back destroying his destroyers too?

The whole WOT-idea is to KILL or displace people, physically take-over the land and all its resources.

In the meantime, huge doses of uranmuim are being found in urine samples of poor Afghans. When the US army is off duty, they collect such samples to see how much they've destroyed through depleted uranium weaponry.

Ciao.

Re: # 21
Krbhatti...
"Keep in mind that whereever Islam went, it allowed the locals to keep their values intact..."

LOL...Like islam is peaceful religion.....

Re: # 9
Tahir, you most obviouslly have been reading Islamic history that is a blatant fabrication to support, (1): the Abbasid caliphs' Machiavellian claims to power, and then, (2) to safeguard the idiotic ideas of Pakistan's political Islamists.

Secondly, there is one more ahadidh attributed to the prophet. It says: "Stop quoting crap in my name, losers!"

Finally it seems the only time men like you are able to find meaning in life is by attracting the attention of so-called "Islamophobes." Get a life, brother.

bhatti: e. This is pure Arab racism and nothing else. These misguided, ill informed, and imbeciles are not only criminals and bigots in their actions but are also full of their own selves to think anything about their non Arab allies. They are there to be used and these non Arabs themselves have allowed themselves to be used because of their ignorance and short sightedness.

Interesting set of lines. As an aside, is this realisation new? Is this bigotry something new?

However, more importantly:

The pakistan government talks of "terrorism" in Pakistan itself. Given what you say, is this a case that the Pakistan Governemnt is suggesting that the guys who are carrying out terrors acts in pakistan are from the outside the country?

Or is it as Urstruly has said here, and many times before (this includes the many others), that this is an equal and opposite reaction - almost justifiable under Islam (urstruly has said this below). If that is the case then it is a law and order situation. Purely from an islamic pov it is not Law and Order, but the a "just right" to carry out mayhem and destroy property of others. It will be Law&Order only if it is taken out of the "Islamic" context (and here I am relying on Urstruly's scholarship and not the kind of touchy-feely tahmed-kind of stuff)

Finally, since FATA has but become unliveable for these guys, do you think that they have moved to SWAT (and hence the skirmishes there)?

BJ Kumar,

Every human society chooses for itself a set of values according to which they live. Some take it from religion (like equality of all men who are born, which can be readily understood through abrahmic religions), and some take it from their own historic experiences. So what is wrong if a society combines religion with culture to arrive at its code of life. Just imagine, what would have happened if invaders fron north followed the hinduism. The conquered would have been given the low caste status, and you would have accepted it as Karma, a concept already in vogue in India.

Now you'll come up with the arguement against Islam itself. Keep in mind that whereever Islam went, it allowed the locals to keep their values intact. You and a billion hindus is a good example of that. You would not have been here if there was no tolerance in Islam. We in Pakistan are dealing with reactionary and narrow minded approach of a segment of society which by no stretch of the word are in majority. We will settle this, even if it takes a whole generation or two, but we will get there...

Re: # 8
tahir...
So, Pakistan is under ZIONIST control!!!
That may be surprising news to Israel as well...
BTW, Pakistan fought against Israel during 1967 war....

Re: # 3
Urs...
"elite and their butcher of a frontman destroyed 8 mosques in Islamabad. Later, in Islamabad, 2000 school girls of an Islamic school were butchered mercilessly by them, along with the destruction of Lal Masjid. ..."
If this MADressahs are schools to you, then pardon me, UN security council should destroy education system in Pakistan and if possible the country itself...
These boooooorqa clad females can produce only jihadi rascals...

Bhatti sahib, at the root of the problem lies the issue of the separation of religion from the affairs of the state. The Islamists do not believe in it, the "liberals" may (but are too afraid to say so). Most of the leadership, media, "intellectuals", etc. like to leave the issue ambiguous -- to everyone's detriment.

Hey, all of you Islamophobes, check out my latest I-log.

I'm not sorry; you deserved it.

Amen!!

Bhatti ji and Tahir ji,

Greetings.

As you people are at the helm of affairs I congratulate you for finally realizing the vision of Islam or "surrender" on the ancient land of Sindh and Punjab.

AMy your beard grow to the appropriate length. May you succed in trying to speak and understand Arab. May you take to Arabic mannerisms. May you grow khajurs on your land and raise and breed the best stock of camels. May your tents be airy. May your 4 wives be good momeenas who serve you well and accept small time spankings with gratitide.

Finally, may all the hindus of Sind remain good Dhimmi slaves working in your factories and farmland without any protest.

The visit comes amid disquiet in US strategic circles about the rift between the military and its hard-line supporters and the civil society and peaceniks in Pakistan. There is growing unease in Washington that the military and its spy agency ISI, with their close ties to jihadis, still call the shots in Pakistan. The sudden release of nuclear smuggler AQ Khan, among other actions, has caused consternation in the US administration about whether the civilian government in Pakistan is in control of the situation.
////////from bbc/////

The mubai ecent has created a rift between the paki politicians and the army. The action in banning the laskers has been recented by the paki army. Another military take over is not very far, especially if teh us gives the money bypassing the army.

The march of this country to teh vision of TNt is unstoppable.

The swatt is finsihed, the nwfp is almost and now the jihadis are knocking on the gates of punjab. the looting from karachi is funding the jihadic march.

WARSAW: Poland promised Monday to issue international arrest warrants for Taliban militants after the apparent beheading of a Polish engineer in Pakistan, and officials charged that elements within the Pakistani government shared blame for the killing.
Pakistan's top diplomat in Poland firmly rejected the accusation that some members of the Islamabad government are sympathetic to Islamic extremists, saying his country is snarled in a bitter fight with terrorist groups that is killing many of its own.

/////from dawn////////

yet another country after isi and its support for the jihadis. It is unfathomable that even on chowk where there is so much of educated pakis, teh support for teh jihadis is so palpable, in the psots of romair, tahmed, urstruly, ylh etc. If that is teh case, total support by the isi is understandable.

This article provides the final proof why teh swat will be surrendered to teh jihadis. The educated one of pakistan are looking for action in swat to be justified by the book and clearly, the jihadis have all the explanations and most part of teh foot soldiers of pakia rmy are from madrassas, class mates of the jihadis.

The notion of action in swat was to enforce the copnstitution of pakistan, not the book. No wonder, the lawyesr of swat have agreed to work for sharia laws in swat.

The tragedy is that there are people, even indians on chowk, who believe that pakiland is another country like others. Pakiland is unique, it is the only country which is at least in some parts ruled by teh book, and the educated pakis support it.

Re: # 4

Thanks laddu for the post. I have been telling all along that mumbai is terror 101 by al quida. It is planned by alquida to attack the westa nd the jews and executed by the kashmir jihadis with ISI and paki army help,

Good to see that finally al quida is accepting responsibility and that also explains why the pakis will do nothing, it is an isi operation.

Tahir mian,

Are you implying that the Taliban of Pakistan and Afghanistan are not true Muslim mujahideens but Zionist-Mirzaee agents? That is a serious charge you know 'cos these people consider themselves to be the truest Muslims?

Regards

Re: # 7

Use your own head Pro-Humanist (born a month ago on ChowQ), why insult Truly!

Who do you think benefits by destroying mosques and schools, surely not TRUE Muslims whose history is not litterd with such mess?

You will know the answer soon.

Re: # 3
First, greetings of peace.

"There are two ahdith that are attributed to Holy prophet (pbuh) in this regards:

1. A corrupt and oppressive ruler is better than the anarchy in the state.
2. A Muslim is only allowed to raise sword against the Muslim state if that states forbids/hinders Muslims to offer prayers in groups and in person."

I understand what you're saying: accept lesser evil in order to keep greater evil away.

Well, if I were to pull out all the ayahs out of the Qur'an that exhort us to stand up against ALL evils, this would be a very long post.

Wrong (mainly 'shirk' related) ideas even from one's own father are worth opposing AND 'sunnah' action! The Ahadith (correct!?) must always be seen under the Qur'anic microscope. The germs imported from corrupted scriptures are many!

There are plenty of states that call themselves Islamic but are under Zionist control. Corruption (in body or spirit) at any level is NOT acceptable and needs to be rooted out. Individuals--not controllable Raiwindian armies--will achieve this in these 'monitored' times!

Our problem is: we have a corrupt elite (every country has that actaully) AND there's uncontrollable anarchy (sponsored by globalist Zionists AND supported by the blind elites)! What do we accept and what do we reject?

Regards.

PS: we don't have to fight over this!

Re: # 3
It is obvious, whenever anyone starts quoting the hadidh (in political matters, at least), he has lost his intellectual legitimacy and common sense.
Jinab Kibla Quasi-Jihadi Urstruly, you twisted reactionary types howl, scream and weep for the destruction of a single mosque, the Lal Masjid (that was more like a communal hair bath of violent hairy apes and their bolted goats) - but never have I heard you pea-brained men of conscience draw out a hadidh at the destruction of the hundreds of mosques and schools that have been rocketed, blown and turned into ruble by the very idiots you are always up at fajar to defend.
Come on then, let’s have some more of those obvious fabrications and literary abominations you guys so proudly call the “hadidh.�

Urstruly,

Let us be clear on a few things:

The land is a state property and it is within the discretion of the state to utlize this land to built mosques or whatever. It does have the authority to destroy the mosques and built it somewhere else. Moreover, these moulvis were after mosques to grab lands and to appoint themselves at those mosques to get their Daal Roti, because nowadays moulvis do not have anything else to do and have made Islam as money making machine.

Moreover, Urstruly Mian, nowhere in Pakistan you are stopped from offering prayer. Next time I come to Pakistan, I can invite you to come with me and let us offer our Jumma prayer right in the middle of road on Mall Road, Lahore. No one will stop you and me, so this arguement of yours is frankly baseless.

Lal Masjid episode, however regrettable, was brought upon by the Mullah biradran themselves. They used violence and in return got the violence. So brother, please analyze the situation by being dispassionate. There is moral ground to what I say. Yes, we have a corrupt elite, and that include the Mullahs.

If these mullahs want to change the society, why don't they stand up in election and convince the people with Dawa'. Once elected they can change the law in whatever way they want to. But, let us agree that people do not trust them and reason is that they are just another bunch of duffers. Look at the father of fundamentalism in Pakistan, Moulana Fazloo, and see how corrupt he and his religious brigade is. Look how they took the lands from Mushy to support him in his rape of constitution.

Laddu,

You are just another saffronised version of Moulana Fazl Ullah. so, Shoooo..

this eye for an eye attitude of urstruly is sickening ,finally everybody will be blind if everybody developes this attitude

The reality is that Paki Elites + ISI = Al Qaeda.......

that is why Al Qaeda is trying to protect Pakistan like the son tries to protect its mother!!

Al Qaeda has to be destroyed .......they are one and the same


Al-Qaida warns India of more Mumbai-style attacks
10 Feb 2009, 1039 hrs IST, PTI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
LONDON: A top al-Qaida commander, who was reported killed in a US drone strike last year, has appeared in a video warning India of more
Mumbai-style terror attacks if it tried to attack Pakistan.

"India should know that it will have to pay a heavy price if it attacks Pakistan," Mustafa Abu al-Yazid, believed to be al-Qaida's military commander in Afghanistan and ranked behind No 2 Ayman al-Zawahiri, said in a 20-minute video in Arabic received by BBC.

Yazid, who the Pakistani military said may have been killed in fighting last August in the Bajaur tribal region, said: "The Mujahideen will sunder your armies into the ground, like they did to the Russians in Afghanistan.

"They will target your economic centres and raze them to the ground."

Yazid denounced the ban on militant groups in Pakistan following the Mumbai attacks and asked the people of Pakistan to rise up and overthrow the government and President Asif Ali Zardari, the BBC reported.

The al-Qaida leader is said to have been involved in a number of terror attacks, including last year's Danish embassy bombings, in Pakistan and had claimed the responsibility of assassinating former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

He was last heard in August 2008 when he confirmed the death of al-Qaida chemical-weapons expert Midhat Mursi al-Sayid Umar.

There are two ahdith that are attributed to Holy prophet (pbuh) in this regards:

1. A corrupt and oppressive ruler is better than the anarchy in the state.

2. A Muslim is only allowed to raise sword against the Muslim state if that states forbids/hinders Muslims to offer prayers in groups and in person. (Its a long hadith, in question-answer form, which I do not have time to translate).

In case of Pakistan the second condition has been fulfilled. Just two years ago the corrupt ruling elite and their butcher of a frontman destroyed 8 mosques in Islamabad. Later, in Islamabad, 2000 school girls of an Islamic school were butchered mercilessly by them, along with the destruction of Lal Masjid. But that was not the end of it. The corrupt ruling elite in active compalcencey of enemies of Muslims bomb mosques and schools in regular basis using drones and airforce. In addition, the corrupt ruling elite and a vicious fouj has failed to protect citizens from foreign aggression, which they took oath to do. In other words, the corrupt ruling elite, foreign agents, and a haramkhor fouj are the one who gave people the first blood. They are the one who assissinated close to 200 top religious scholars in Pakistan. They are the one who have confined over 16,000 citizens illegally and they are subjecting Muslims to torture, rape, and terror in those torture cells. They have outsourced our country to torture Muslims from all over the world in Pakistan.

All of this could have been forgotten and forgiven but the murder of children is a crime for which there is no mercy.

Bhatti: you shouldn't have brought this angle into the equation. Because that will lgitimize everything and you won't have moral legs to stand on.

Bhatti,
I really wanna write something on this issue but I am totally bored with it too. So I will post when I see something new coming out of there.

Khalid bhai,

Longish but good article.