How Greed Ruins Academia

Re: # 9 Kamath... You point of view is highly appreciated that Pakistan is well ahead of India in military science. But do you think military science can meet the demands of poor? simply put can it kill hunger and misery? What we need is an established scietific base of goods and services where common public public can get benefit

Haider Ali

Sir, You have rightly pointed out deteriorating situation of our public sector universities. Quality teaching and reserach is not our priority currently. There's need to stress research at every level.

i had not yet finished lamenting and empathising with the lot of our research scholars at international venues,congealed in a state of shock in "outer space", left in lurch by hec' s not being able to honor its committment to them for lack of funds!!;when i was brought back to earth", to see the hallowed "earth"of the University being encroached upon without check, as revealed in your article 'How greed ruins academia".and some pieces of Universityland being sold!!talk about illegal, the council does not see this as illegal and they have the heartlessness to call open lectures as illegal!they are planning to sell off university land, in such haste, why are not they waiting to see their "fast served fossil fuel" the one which atta ur Rahman got for them, by top heavy funding exclusive for PhD, to be run out of, first?
the standard will definitely be hanging at an angle down from the mediocre to definitely inferior.i would like to see where this herd of run o the mill phd professors are going to get their lac rupees per their own successful phd student, of which there will be a bigger herd i am sure.in the vast universe, the univs of pakistan will stand isolated as "black holes".the good bright students will have the only option of going to the other universities in the universe, which have a life, and care that they have bright students, who feel proud to take quality ensuring testslike GRE.i am sure even ata ur rahman wanted his enriched (no pun intended)phd students/teachers to have a sure test of quality to vouch for them!he did so much to have a good image presented to the International scenario......

Re: # 9
Kamath...
That is wrong assumption...
The source of these technologies are somewhere else ( most probably Pakistan obtained it via China)...These are just for the sake of flaunting....
Pakistan (and India too) publish too few papers of basic sciences, forget about nobel....a country, which can not design a good car engine, can not boast of technology...
europe,usa and russia are far ahead of us and japan is catching up very fast...apart from bits and pieces approaches from private sectors in India, the story may be similar to that of Pakistan...

Today it appeared in Daily Jang and we all are proud of being Pakistan !

http://www.jang.net/jm/2-21-2009/images/03_23.gif



Zeeshan Ahmed
Technical University of Vienna

Mr. Zeeshan Ahmed, 26 years old, have on record more than 24 years of education and more than 6 years of professional experience of working within different multinational organizations in the field of Computer Science with emphasis on software engineering of database, human computer interaction, distributed, MES / ERP and interactive complex systems, furthermore also have more than three years experience of teaching as lecturer and supervising research thesis to graduate and undergraduate students in different institutes and universities.

According to my interests, educational back ground and profession, I prefer working in Software Engineering (SE) and Artificial Intelligence (AI) domains, especially in Information engineering & Processing, Natural & Machine Language Processing, Product Life Cycle Management, Product Line Architectures, Measurement Analysis, Machine Learning, Multi Agent System (MAS), Intelligent Machine Interface Design, Semantic Modelling and Knowledge engineering.

Moreover I am the author of more than 70 International research publications as solo & first author, winner of more than 40 distinctions/awards/prizes and participant in more than 100 International research events.




University Distinctions


1.Completed PhD Course work with 100 Percent result (A Grade in all subjects).

2.Completed 4 Years PhD Course and Research Work in 1 year.

3.Completed MS Computer Science with Major Intelligent Software Systems 1.5 Years (3 Semesters) course work in 4 Months (1 Semester).

4.Completed MS Computer Science with Software Engineering 2 Years course work in 1 Year.

5.Completed BS Computer Science 4 Years (12 Semester) graduation program in 2.8 Years (8 Semesters).




Research Distinctions

1.Produced 67 international research papers & presentations as SOLO and First Author during PhD Research Work including International Conferences, Workshops, Journals and Seminars, (Pre-PhD Defense and 3 more expected as Near / Post-PhD Defense) , Vienna, Austria 2007-09



2.Produced highest research publications in Mechanical Engineering Informatics and Virtual Product Development Division (MIVP), Vienna University of Technology (TU Vienna), Vienna Austria as First Author in Year 2009
Engineering Informatics and Virtual Product Development Division (MIVP), Vienna University of Technology (TU Vienna), Vienna Austria as First Author in Year 2008

3.Produced highest research publications in Mechanical Engineering Informatics and Virtual Product Development Division (MIVP), Vienna University of Technology (TU Vienna), Vienna Austria as First Author in Year 2007




Intelligent Semantic Oriented Agent based Search (I-SOAS)

http://www.mivp.tuwien.ac.at/index.php/I-SOAS.html




Research of Zeeshan Ahmed

http://www.mivp.tuwien.ac.at/index.php/I-SOAS.html



Academic Achievements

http://zeeshanahmed.bravehost.com/achievements.html




Tec hnical Experience

http://zeeshanahmed.bravehost.com/achievements.html


Homepage



http://zeeshanahmed.bravehost.com/index.html

Re: # 69
Dear Mr Jamil,
My pleasure, I am sending a welcome message.
Regards,
viewer

Dear 'viewer',

I would like to be in touch with you regarding some academic matters, in private. Would you please contact me at my email address: jamil.camp@gmail.com

Sincerely

Re: # 66

As it is discussed by others and has recently been endorsed by the academic council of QAU, the GRE test can be welcome if its original incentive is retained i.e. filtering students who wish to enter a PhD program.

When they are enrolled in a PhD program it is irrelevant to talk about appearing and passing the GRE test.

To me it makes no sense to ask a PhD candidate, who has already spent several years in obtaining some publishable results in research, to go and pass GRE test before he can be given PhD certification.

Secondly, in my opinion, in case an institution (like NUST) demands passing the test before making a PhD admission, the institution or the government should bear all the test administering costs.

By the way, I would like to mention here (thinking that it might be of interest to some) that at the place where I am presently working (which is not in Pakistan or in North America) I know a person who completed his PhD from a high-ranking US university some years ago (and, therefore, went through the GRE, the qualifying exam, and the other requirements there) but later could not establish a steady record of research publications in peer reviewed journals. He is now finding it hard to keep his job and is thinking about doing something other than academics.

Re: # 64
"Viewer I challenge you to produce your GRE scores, and I bet a million dollars that you are one of those losers scoring in the bottom 10th percentile"

Perhaps you have missed to notice Charlie mentioning that most top-ranking universities in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Scandinavia, Australia and Japan do not require GRE in any subject … and even the top-ranking USA universities such as Harvard, MIT, Chicago, Columbia, John Hopkins, no more require GRE in these subjects.

Without mentioning personal details I would like to inform that I am covered by this situation and have never bothered about the GRE business.

"You should be ashamed of yourself comparing an MIT trained physicist with a PhD from some community college in Canada"

Firstly, I never have made a comparison between personalities and please indicate the post # where I have done so.

Secondly, you are perhaps unaware that an academic's professional worth is judged not by the place of his/her PhD certification but by the research s/he has produced or producing, and from the number of research theses for which s/he can be given a credit.

Unfortunately, it happens only in Pakistan that one's place of PhD certification is given very high importance. This is a simplistic approach as our meagre academic system has not much else to offer in terms of tools to measure an academic's professional achievements so we make our judgements by asking a simple question, "so, have you done your PhD from some ivy league university in the US?"

Believe me, after obtaining your PhD certification, which is supported by peer-reviewed and cited publications, no one will bother to ask, or will have interest to know, from where you got your PhD degree when you go to work in countries like UK, Germany, France, Italy, Scandinavia, Australia and in Japan.

I consider this a tragedy that a few influential scientists working in Pakistan who obtained their PhD certifications from US universities are trying to glorify their PhD places and wish to impose on Pakistani research students their PhD experiences in the US universities like passing the GRE test etc.

Come on, the North American higher education model is just one model and other countries have developed their own models that are successful, excellent, and do function well. Why do we need to align ourselves with the North American model?

QAU (or any other University in Pakistan) is not a research university, like e.g. Cornell. Competent candidates and competent Professors should welcome GRE. It’s a mickey mouse test that gauges only analytical and critical thinking skills and not much else. If there’s a problem with the GRE, then come up with something comparable to measure these skills, and have that test scrutinized, peer reviewed and tested.

I would again say that the condition of qualifying the GRE subject test to get a PhD degree is futile and spurious. The test can be allowed as the condition for ‘admission’ in the PhD only and not to get a degree. There are many PhD scholars who have completed their research, qualified comprehensive exams based on post-grad level courses with viva voce, maintained 3.5 CGPA throughout coursework, published few research papers in ISI journals and also wrote down their theses. But they cannot submit their theses since they have not qualified their GREs. Does all this not yet sufficient to get a PhD degree? Due to this spurious condition, many universities in Pakistan are either not following this condition. Some universities (like NUST: National University of Sciences and Technology, Rawalpindi) which imposed the GRE subject condition, its productivity of PhD students has declined. Consider its research institute CAMP (center for advanced mathematics and physics); the center was established in the start of 2004 to produce quality researchers in mathematics and physics, has not yet produced a single PhD since. Although the NUST University desperately needs quality teachers in math and physics, it has to hire a large number of M.Sc/M.Phil qualified visiting and contract based faculty members. Most of these staff members don’t know how to teach. Certainly these low qualified staff is not a match to a PhD staff.

Let us assume if some PhD scholar does qualify the test, would it ensure that he is also a good researcher as well? Would it ensure that the scholar would remain active and enthusiastic in research? In fact, NO. To perform quality research, a scientist needs curiosity and passion to do research. The traits of doing good research develop on their own in him.

Viewer is jumping so high may be because he was in the 20th percentile when he took a GRE?

Viewer I challenge you to produce your GRE scores, and I bet a million dollars that you are one of those losers scoring in the bottom10th percentile. You should be ashamed of yourself comparing an MIT trained physicist with a PhD from some community college in Canada, like this joker Professor Eatzaz Ahmad.

Re: # 44
viewer...

May be Prof Hoodbhoy was invited in IISc....IISc is good research institute. So are TIFR, BARC, SINP, ISI, IACS etc.. etc.....but pioneer of HE of yester years, i.e. Calcutta, Delhi, Chennai and Mumbai Universites are ailing...most of the students just love to collect one degree and jump into IT jobs...still may be .1% of engineering and science students do engage in good quality research...Standards of IITs are not improving....there is acute faculty crunch...
One stat will say you all...
India exports one of the highest number of students for masters program in USA,UK and Australia (may be after China)....
What I see is MNC research centres are realy good investment for India, whether it is Lab from Microsoft, IBM,HP, GE, GM ...

Re: # 61

"Research without a sound understanding of the subject carries no value."

Re: Is this the monetary value, publishing value, media value, marketing value, academic value, or some other value?

"the fact is that our neighbouring countries, excluding Afghanistan, have their students doing very well"

Re: So sandindia is lying in post 38

“The government must subsidise test-taking more than is currently being done.�

Re: Please first convince the government to pay all the GRE test fees and then put forward the GRE agenda

Here in below, I am pasting the reply of Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy in reply to my email. My email consisted of my interacts in #32 and #33. Here he goes...

Dear Mr. Jamil,

One must know the basics of a subject before claiming to extend its
frontiers through research. Research without a sound understanding of the
subject carries no value. The GRE's probe the candidate's fundamentals,
which is why they are required by many institutions. Although GRE's are
not universally required, in Pakistan, where the subject knowledge of
students is exceptionally poor, they offer a useful metric.

We can create any number of excuses of why our students fare poorly, but
the fact is that our neighbouring countries, excluding Afghanistan, have
their students doing very well.

I agree with you about the cost. The government must subsidise test-taking
more than is currently being done.

NTS: Again, I agree with you that ideally we should have this rather than
the GRE. But this will have to be after they create better, more reliable
tests. Currently the standard of the NTS tests is very poor.

Regards,
----------
Pervez Hoodbhoy
Chairman, Department of Physics
Quaid-e-Azam University
Islamabad 45320, Pakistan.

Re: # 54
Charlie...
As per my knowledge, GRE was never an ideal test to filter research students. It tests ability but not knowledge in specific areas...It will be good for each university to arrange specific test. Furthermore, GRE is very costly and should not be imposed on students of 3rd world countries, where HE is mostly subsidised....

Re: # 58
If this is what you imagine I have said below then you need an immediate consultation with a psychiatric.

viewer: yes indeed. proud muslim warriors should be attending the world famous Swat Institute of Technology (founded by Mullah Fazlulah, PhD).

Re: # 55

Kulharee writes: "You can sit and twiddle your thumbs all day long pretending everything is roses, or you can wake up to the reality that Pakistani higher education is going down the tube, and the quality of its graduates leaves a lot to be desired."

Re:

No one is saying that everything is roses. Please indicate who has said this.

My strong disagreement is with the wrong assumption of the mentioned professor that requiring our local PhD students to pass GRE test will automatically raise standards of the PhDs produced.

This is not going to happen.

As the record of ex-PhD or ex-MPhil students of the mentioned professor shows, the GRE exam has been quite helpful route in providing a sustained supply of the so-called "peons of the West" to the US universities.

If maintaining that supply is called an "achievement" then the mentioned professor has indeed achieved a lot.

What Pakistani nation asks and seeks is not a supply of those "peons" but the development of local infrastructure and helping our local students to grow themselves while being within this country.

Re: # 55

Who cares whether the letter by Charlie is "Professorial" or not? The letter raises valid points and describes facts along with a description of the recent right decisions taken by the academic council of QAU.

An academic's achievement are to be measured not by his/her media appearances, by his/her publishing in newspapers, by his/her “public lectures�, but only by the quality research articles published in professional research journals, the number of research thesis’s and PhDs s/he has produced.

Could you please disclose the mentioned professor's academic "achievements" during the last whole decade?

I believe in terms of academic achievements many young professors are doing much better than the mentioned professor.

Why is it so hard for Pakistanis to accept the reality? The letter below by a Professor is about as much Professorial as a donkey’s privates. The guy is so obviously green-eyed of Prof. Hoodbhoy’s accomplishments and his rank, and more over his courage to take on difficult issues; issues relating to the higher education in Pakistan. You can sit and twiddle your thumbs all day long pretending everything is roses, or you can wake up to the reality that Pakistani higher education is going down the tube, and the quality of its graduates leaves a lot to be desired.

Kindly find in attachment my response to Dr. Hoodbhoys article “How greed ruins academia�. I sent this letter to Dawn on Feb 10, 2009 but for some unknown reasons the Editor did not consider my response worth publication, while it has published letters in favor of Dr. Hoodbhoy.

Objectivity of Academic Council’s Decisions at QAU

Professor Pervez A. Hoodbhoy in his article “How greed ruins academia� appearing in Dawn February 09, 2009 has discussed the merit of two decisions taken by Academic Council of Quaid-i-Azam University (QAU).

The first decision was not to concede to the demand of Professor Hoodbhoy to transfer certain powers for faculty appointments from the University’s Selection Board to particular department. The Academic Council did not agree with the proposal in order to minimize the role of powerful chairpersons in victimizing candidates for teaching positions on the basis of personal and ideological liking or disliking. As an elected member of the QAU Syndicate I am aware of how Chairman of a department tried to misuse his authority in destroying the career of his junior colleague, a bright Assistant Professor. First, the chairman recommended termination of his colleague just because he could not perform well in a short seminar in which he was not allowed to speak freely beyond a few minutes. The chairman ignored several teaching evaluation reports filled by students, recommendations of foreign referees and an enviable research record of the concerned teacher, who produced many more research articles in the past five years than the chairman himself. The Syndicate, where majority consists of prominent academicians from outside QAU, a supreme-court judge and a senior officer from the HEC, rejected the chairman’s recommendation. The chairman then tried to deny his same colleague the right to join as Assistant Professor on Tenure Track System (TTS) despite recommendation of Selection Board and approval by Syndicate. The Syndicate had to intervene and the aforementioned Assistant Professor’s joining was finally accepted by the Vice Chancellor himself.

With this backdrop of nonacademic considerations, the Academic Council took a wise decision in not giving veto powers to departments and rather voted to continue relying on foreign referees’ reports and recommendations of Selection Board in which chairperson of the concerned department, two of his/her nominees as subject experts and Dean of the faculty also participate along with several external members.

The second decision taken by the Academic Council was to abolish the condition of passing Graduate Record Examination (GRE) for obtaining PhD degree in any subject. This condition was faulty to begin with for several reasons.

During the 1970s and 1980s GRE used to be considered as one of the several yardsticks for measuring suitability of candidates from all over the world with diverse educational standards, seeking admission in certain American universities. But years of experience has shown that the value of these examinations is quite limited because it is much easy to secure good marks by mastering specific tricks to minimize the proportion of incorrect answers with little knowledge of the subject. This is the very reason why GRE has remained confined to a few North American universities. Most top-ranking universities in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Scandinavia, Australia and Japan do not require GRE in any subject. GRE in certain subjects, like economics has now been abolished and even the top-ranking USA universities such as Harvard, MIT, Chicago, Columbia, John Hopkins, no more require GRE in these subjects.

Another reason why GRE was scrapped was that it was recommended as a requirement for obtaining PhD degree, not for obtaining admission into the PhD program for which it was originally designed. Imposing this condition will degrade the value of our PhD degree.

Yet another reason was that GRE examination is offered in few subjects only. In most of the disciplines, like electronics, geophysics, statistics, computer, IT, economics, international relations and history, no GRE is offered. What is the merit of developing a local GRE test in these subjects if the masterminds of the test did not consider GRE desirable, in certain cases after years of bad experience?

As regards greed, the amount that the University pays for successful supervision of a PhD thesis is Rs 60,000, which is equal to just six working days salary of Professor Hoodbhoy, who considers himself head and shoulder above the rest of his community. In the subject of economics of which I have a fairly good idea, if a supervisor gives two hours a week to his/her PhD student for three years it amounts to about 300 hours. If this amount of time is used to teach an undergraduate course in a private-sector university, one can earn five to ten times more money. A plumber with little formal education earns about twice as much in 300 hours as a PhD thesis supervisor The only reason a university teacher supervises a thesis is that it adds to his/her research profile.

Being an old colleague of Professor Hoodbhoy I am aware of his enormous academic potential. Unfortunately over the past few years he has lost his race in academics and has turned his attention to media for glorification. I, like most of my colleagues, do not have unlimited time and energy to respond to his continuous criticism through print and electronic media. All I can ask him is to disclose to general public the number of PhD theses and research articles published in academic journals to his credit during the past 10 years. I also request him to disclose to general public the data source for his magic number of 80% of the university teachers who do not know the art of teaching.


Dr. Eatzaz Ahmad
Professor of Economics
Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad
Emails: eatzaz@qau.edu.pk

I agree with you, Kulharee.

I don't get such attempts of owning or disowning a particular universal value or truth by a nation or a region.

-E

Viewer Sahib, not being able to pay is one lousy excuse. Government can chip in as easily as it chips in the stipends, etc. Your arguments about Pakistani academic values being different from the American is ludicrous, in light of the fact that almost 90% of texts in undergraduate courses are pretty universal. There is nothing American or Pakistani about Physics. You either get it or you don’t. And those who dont get it should not be pursuing PhDs, because they will then end up producing students that won't be able to pass high school.

I believe that GRE test should not be a requirement for PhD entrance or to obtain a PhD degree from a Pakistani university because:

a) For an average Pakistani PhD candidate (as Mubasher has argued earlier) it is very hard to pay the GRE testing fees

b) The GRE test is representative of American academic values, as many American authors have also raised this point in their writings. It is, therefore, irrelevant to our higher education system

If Prof. Hoodbhoy and his associates really want to put in place the GRE test then they should ensure that:

a) The admitting university or the government pays the testing fees

b) They should come up with a detailed report justifying why the testing system is useful for Pakistani higher education even though there is growing and strong resistance against this testing system in the US

c) They should arrange free preparatory classes for the GRE tests in Pakistani universities

d) They should justify the costs and gains of doing the above actions in front of the costs and gains of helping to improve our local testing system

Re: # 49
Kulharee writes: "Prof. Hodbhoy has always made valid points when it comes to issues of higher education in Pakistan."

I don't disagree with that.

My point is who is supposed to pay the GRE testing fee and why. Especially, why should we accept that GRE is the right and appropriate testing system for our local PhD candidates. A detailed justification is requested in light of the following:

a)Jeff Schmidt (who was the editor of Physics Today magazine for nineteen years) has argued in his book "Disciplined Minds" that in the GRE testing system "...a successful student is the one who either shares the testers' values or senses those values and adapt them for the examination."

b)Why should we adapt those (predominantly American) values and why should not we (even though gradually) develop our own values by putting in more efforts (which Prof. Hoodbhoy and his associates remain disinclined to do) in developing a faithful and reliable testing systems of our own.

At this point I would like Prof. Hoodbhoy to please also have a look at a 1962 book by Banesh Hoffmann, who was Einstein's collaborator, titled "The Tyranny of Testing."

GRE general tests analytical/verbal reasoning as well as ability to think critically (a basic requirement for pursuing any graduate studies). The subject tests only measure the understanding of a subject at the undergraduate level. If Pakistani students can’t show a competency in the subjects that they supposedly studied before pursuing a PhD program, they should then either join the Army (like other dungars produced by our educational system) or open a pakoRa stand. Leave PhDs for those who can show a little competency and can demonstrate an ability to think critically. Prof. Hodbhoy has always made valid points when it comes to issues of higher education in Pakistan.

Re: # 47
Zeeba writes: "its not fair to the author if one absolutely fails to grasp his point here. The point that he is trying to make here is of academic quality, standards..."

Re: Of course, we should have a testing system for entering PhD candidates to ensure quality. No one is denying that.

My point is that the GRE represents the mindset of the US universities and may be best suited there. Why our poor PhD students should pay heavy fees for a test that is completely irrelevant for our higher education system?

If Prof. Hoodbhoy desires that the Pakistani PhD students should take the test then our universities should also offer GRE test preparation classes and should provide other support in this regard. As a Head of Physics deptt at QAU, is Prof. Hoodbhoy willing to start GRE preparation classes?

Also, if in any case GRE is required by a Pakistani university for entrance into PhD program, the university should be willing to pay all the testing fees.

Without these measures, asking our PhD students to take the GRE test favours students coming from certain financial and academic background.

Secondly, I would like to ask Prof. Hoodbhoy that instead of paying heavy GRE testing fees, and having preparatory classes for a testing exam which is completely irrelevant to our education system, why should not we put our best efforts to improve and develop existing Pakistani testing system initiated earlier by HEC.

"This business is, therefore, surely irrelevant to Pakistani higher education system. It, however, certainly helps to provide the US the so-called #Peons of the West.#"

Though I might agree that the GRE is a business and has already created monopoly over the international education system (particularly in the US) same goes for ETS, IELTS, TASP, SAT, LSAT and what not.that is there to check an individual's standard.
The business is indeed profitable, even to the point of being exploitive (for eg. exam retakes to ensure validity every two years) but this doesn't mean one can discredit the testing systems which are aimed at testing a candidate's academic aptitude.

I think, its not fair to the author if one absolutely fails to grasp his point here. The point that he is trying to make here is of academic quality, standards, and filtering out student based on their capacities before enrolling them into sophisticated degree programs at recognized institutions. If these standards are not maintained, then this very seriously undermines the quality of a unversity which once was considered among the good lot. And of course, if the lack of control over quality will eventually result in its irredeemable demise.

If you agree with ensuring quality of education, then is it really true that Pakistan has devised its own testing standard yet that can ensure a student's credibilty? Is it right to declare each and everyone a Phd. candidate, even after he has miserably failed the standard test?

Mubashir in his previous post has raised a very god question, which is how in Pakistan, with its national economy doom, can a student afford to pay a 12000 Rs. test in order to get into the program. It is not that I can't sympathize with those who can't pay, but my support is for those who are genuinely serious about a Phd. and know it well that a doctorate degree is not everybody's joke.

Is it not really a joke that almost everyone with little or no academic capability to become a Phd. student in Pakistan?
If I had found it to be funny enough, I too would have joined any Phd. program anywhere in the country because its so easy to call every other person a "scholar" or a "doctor" here. But I'm in no mood of risking 12000 over something which I know is probably not meant for me.


Sad indeed!

Dr. Hoodbhoy.... i am sure you will agree with me.... it's time to stop worrying and abandon ship. This country is beyond the point of no return in its senseless sink.
The entire general mindset, the entire system has rotten to the core (tell me one example, in any given field that indicates that this country will survive the next 4 years and not become Afghanistan.)
It will... messers viewer and mubasher are making sure that they put in their two cents worth towards that goal. only a general indicator of the collective mindset.
Mediocrity is not shameful. trying to pass mediocrity as excellence, and stubbornly defending this act is. but mediocrity wont pay the bill of existence.

Hoodbhoy reminds me of "Zakir-e-Sham-e-Ghariban". Now, it is debatable if education system in Pakistan is as horrible as was the death of Hussain and co.

Re: # 42
I wonder then how and why Prof. Hoodbhoy, in his writings, often makes reference to "wonderful" Indian and Iranian academic institutions, while Indians and Iranians both deny that they are infact not so "wonderful" and troubles with them are similar as they are with Pakistani institutions.

For that matter the IIMS are no paragons of research either.

Sanatani

Re: # 38

Actually most of them are even worse than degree shops.

Sanatani

Masadi is welcome.

Masadi, along with tahmed, is one of the foremost thinkers in Pakistan. How can chowk survive without the contributions from these fine minds? What is the world coming to?

This is to inform you that Masadi sahib has again been banned on chowk for 3 whole days now for just one post on this thread. However Masadi sb will be back once his detention ends.

Regards

I agree with the article, but the professor is wrong with his assumptions regarding Indian education. The massive expansion of the university system in the recent decades has not been with sacrificing quality. Except the IITs & the IIMs, which somehow are exception, the bulk of Indian universities are degree shops. Professors are usually appointed with political patronage, and rarely take classes. Unlike in West little research happens in the universities, but in separate insitutes such as IISc.

I find the idea of making PhD candidates do the GRE subject test in the area of their work to qualify for their degree ludicrous, but for a different reason.

The subject test is supposed to evaluate minimally acceptable undergraduate training. US universities when they require it use it in the admission process to graduate school as one measure to evaluate applicants (including people who're only going to do masters' degrees). To be formally recognized as a PhD candidate you invariably need to pass 'candidacy exams' or qualifiers, typically in four or five areas, within a couple of years of joing graduate school. These exams are supposed to evaluate breadth of knowledge with adequate depth, and are often considered quite strenuous. And this is just to qualify as a candidate. Compared with typical qualifiers, the GRE Subject Test is a joke, and the 40th percentile requirement is laughable.

Re: # 33
I would also like to request Prof. Hoodbhoy to please have a look at the following book:

Disciplined Minds: A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-Battering System That Shapes Their Lives, Author: Jeff Schmidt.

I read it some time ago and remember that somewhere in it it is argued that the whole GRE business is no more than politics.

This business is, therefore, surely irrelevant to Pakistani higher education system. It, however, certainly helps to provide the US the so-called #Peons of the West.#

Re: # 33
In light of what Mubasher is saying, which is indeed very reasonable, I would like to suggest that Prof. Hoodbhoy should take responsibility of paying any GRE exam fees for all candidates who are required by their universities to pass this exam before they are granted their PhDs.

anil #: check out the HEC site for info on what is going on in higher education in pakistan......http://www.hec.gov.pk/

.....this was one of the good things done by musharraf....i have a close relative doing a ph.d in pakistan, on one of these scholarship.....she is all praise for dr. attaur rahman......this program has send a large number of pakistani students abroad and in pakistan for ph.ds......it is purely merit based and covers a lot of poor students also.....and they are doing ph.ds in all kinds of subjects, from agriculture to medicine to computers.....

......there was, certainly, nothing like this around when i was a student.....i have met quite a few pakistani students who are taking advantage of this......this first batches of this program should have started coming online, after completing their ph.ds........

so pakistan should see an immediate increase in phd.s........though the new govt. has fired dr. rahman and has watered down the hec, due to lack of funds.....

one needs to read dr. hoodbhoy's remarks with a grain of salt......he cannot figure out if he is an academician or an activist......and seems to be having difficulty aligning the two......one could say he is a good devil's advocate or a good pessimist.......nothing wrong with that......many activists are like that......but one needs to understand that, when one is reading them.......

following is another good program being launched in pakistan.....http://sse.lums.edu/.......

......at its peak, gik university, a few years after launching, had reached a higher ranking that some of the iit's in asian-australian surveys......it was no.9 at one point........

things are not good in pakistan, on the education front......but it's not all doom and gloom......and there are other folks, besides dr. hoodbhoy who have some level of competence as well.......

interestingly, which country has the largest university in the world, in terms of enrolment.......you may be surprised to know it is pakistan........allama iqbal open university has 1.85 million students.......indira gandhi open university is second.......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_largest_universities

There are few more problems with the international GRE subject examinations. These tests are taken in only twelve subjects (if I am not mistaken). But there are several many research areas for which there are no GRE subject exams like social sciences and several engineering sciences. For these subjects, the NTS (national testing service) prepares subjective tests. These tests have very nominal fees of few hundred rupees. If a PhD student fails in it than he/she can reappear in the test, without facing much financial burden. However in the international GRE subject tests, a huge sum has to be paid by underpaid students. A typical Pakistani PhD student gets a scholarship of roughly ten thousand rupees per month. If he is living in a hostel, then six thousand rupees will be deducted from this scholarship. How can this poor PhD student can even pay the GRE test fees? Perhaps the concerned authorities should also think about this as well. Either the GRE subject test condition out to be removed or the scholarship amounts must be raised?

This is with reference to an article by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy that recently appeared in DAWN. He insists on a hypothesis that students qualifying the GRE subject with good percentiles are reasonably good researchers, which is a pointless argument. The GRE test only determines the understanding of a student in his graduate level courses and not the student’s research abilities. I know some of my colleagues, who have almost no understanding of their subjects and still have published few research papers. This problem can be remedied by adopting the research methodology and proper literature suvey. Surely here this problem has nothing to do with the GRE test. Due to poor schooling in our academic institutes, even our most brilliant students are unable to qualify this test.

It reminds me of a quote by some anonymous person about exercise which goes like: exercise is a bunk; if you are healthy you don’t need it and if you are sick you cannot do it. The same thing is applied to our PhD students in a different manner: GRE is a bunk; if our students have caliber to qualify it then they don’t need it and if they have not, they cannot qualify it. So what is the point of doing GRE?

Anyway I will strongly oppose the condition of GRE subject exam to obtain PhD degrees. Our universities have no match to those of US or UK, so why our universities are demanding these useless and spurious conditions to be satisfied. Another problem is that our PhD students are highly underpaid considering the inflation in national economy. The test fee costs roughly twelve thousand rupees which is too much for a PhD student to pay. In most cases, the PhD students are unable to qualify this exam, so they have to keep on submitting the excessive fees. Would Dr. Hoodbhoy consider these factors as well in supporting the GRE subject tests?

It is a circular argument. There is no reason for an intelligent person to pursue a PhD in Pakistan. The people who end up doing that are normally looking for the 'stipend' HEC gives. I personally know a few persons who couldn't get a decent job in industry and joined the PhD programme.

The professors at the universities have had no incentive to be productive in research and effective in teaching since they were not remunerated properly for that. Now with a new wave of PhDs and tenure system coming in, they feel insecure and do what the article suggests.

Re: # 5

Charlie writes "It is a shame that current QAU university students are unable to get good GRE score. I remember, when I left my univeristy (UET) in 2002, most of my friends scored 2000+ in GRE which was considered reasonably well. Well, may be, good students join engineering and medicine while rest of them study physics and mathematics at QAU"

PLease read Hoodbhoy,s article again. He refers to GRE subject test and NOT the GRE general test. The general test was never required for PhD at QAU. The "good students" going to UET end up in taking rishwat while working for WAPDA etc.

"how many of those are there in Pakistan, anyway?"

Well, I don't think Pakistan is an island and absolutely disconnected with the rest of the capitalist world. Neo-liberal policies sure make us choose between given choices! Besides, if you think I support Taliban cuz of their ideology, you are mistaken I think.

Anyway. Let's keep it for some other time.

Cheers.
-E

Anil,

Come up with a systematic plan, something effective if you know what I mean. Since you have opened this debate, I am constantly looking for alternate stuff. Hope that you don't reply as incoherently as I did.

P.S: This can be a good debate. So tells my gut feeling!

------------
Rabia,
I saw a picture of a Swati buttchered by Talibs and that boggled my arguments for Taliban, to be fair. But still I am on and will vemonize against Imperialism and War on Terror, no matter what the Taliban do. Call it whatever you like.
--------------

Over n out, for now.
-E

sure, but you're blaming 'neo-liberals' (how many of those are there in Pakistan, anyway? I thought Dr. Hoodhboy was the only ) for your choice to support the Taliban. Anyway, nevermind.

well,
I mean, I've chosen neo-Taliban since it is either American onslaught or Taliban reaction. And you happen to be anti-Taliban, thus your obvious choice will be American Imperialism. There is no third or middle way, right?
-E

"oh u mean, now your and your likes' choice is neo-liberal War on Terror, since mine is against it."

what do you mean?

#23

oh u mean, now your and your likes' choice is neo-liberal War on Terror, since mine is against it.

Great.
-E

"Just imagine, where have your neo-liberalism policies led us to, that now leftists are supporting neo-Taliban. You should get worried, no?"

don't blame your own choices on other people.

Well, Anil. No need for apology. I realize now that it was mere slip of tongue, as your anti-Masadi pulse pushed you to go out of order for a while. :)

Meritocracy. Hmm. Well, I don't think local talent is only nourished in foreign universities, because I have seen a lot of Grammerians, foreign-returned kids who know nothing about what they are talking about. And since, social sciences have been my concern for past 10 years I can only talk about it, I guess.

First of all, state-run universities should maintain merit. (HOW??) Private inititiatives are welcome, but only a handful of students can make it to them. State-run universities have an advantage of activism and a larger social life, which is as much a part of individual development as academic lectures are.

And since, this is purely my hypothesis, we have no social scientists who can work in disciplines such as sociology, philosophy, etc, we can't develop a healthy attitude towards values and works of natural sciences. So the point is to create a vibrant environment at state-run universities. Now, who will do that? I don't know. Does anybody in power want to do that? I don't think so. Will Pakistani society evolve this way? I don't believe so. Can it be done by thinking people? I only wish so.

On another note, despite all my rantings for lower classes I could never buy this excuse that some of my mates give me that poor individuals, who make it to state-run universities could not compete with Masadi-like foreign-returns, just because their parents couldn't get them into Grammer schools. I think some people can do that. Call them exceptions, but I know a few who did. And those are the few I respect the most.

Now this elite class that you mentioned, deserves a kind of pity, I think. I've seen these kids, who know no language, have nothing to offer to society except stupid jokes and comic stories. So, never mind. I love them. And I pity them at the same time.
-E

#1
Masadi,

You are diseased with a virus of your own, I think. Nobody can cure you. I read your filtered comment on Hoodbhoy on Anil's insistence, and it made me puke, u moron.

Each individual has a right to speak about issues concerning his affairs of life n workplace. Dr. Hoodbhoy did not step in socialogy, as far as I can tell. As a professor, an educationaist, a conecerned citizen, he has merely argued against wrong policies or HEC and attitude of professors. Now you better shut up, cuz it ain't your area of expertise as well. Period.

-E

Re: # 18

bittersweetmojo:

I am sorry for my comment, and would like to take it back. My main point is that it is important to create meritocracy in Pakistan's education system. I am told that Pakistan's system, unlike Indian system, allows private initiatives. Pakistan must have a very large, in fact far larger than what can be admitted in QAU, number of kids who would excel and cannot go abroad. I know for fact this is true for India. Sending kids abroad for esoteric subjects like social sciences, is a luxury only elites can afford to offer their kids. These families are least interested in creating meritocracy, as their kids would have to compete and could not get into those merit based instituions. I have seen this happening in India also.

Who is going to create meritocracy? Please read what Masadi wrote to criticize Prof. Hoodbhoy, as if this professor of sociology is more qualified to tell the other off.

Now that I have apologized, let us discuss the main point. Meritocracy in education in Pakistan.

#17
Well, Rabia, make one correction in your worried-tense. Only ONE former KU leftist is supporting neo-Taliban, for now. Just imagine, where have your neo-liberalism policies led us to, that now leftists are supporting neo-Taliban. You should get worried, no?

Besides that ONE former KU leftist is going crazy by seeing KU being forced to wear Hijab. Strange. Seems so. But in Sociology, which Anil brushes aside by calling it a useless discipline, it is called: SOCIAL CONTEXT.

Good day.

-E

#16

"... for most useless of study like sociology." WHAT!
God, Anil, you made me stunned. I never expected this out of you man.

I mean, from your Dhobi washing your silly River Island stock to your kid going to American schools, all things need sociology to explain it all.

Tragic!
-E

#13
isn't it a cause of worry that leftist KU students are supporting the neo-taliban?

Hoodbhoy sahib:

I find it hard to believe the woes you have listed. Pakistani society too, like all other, produces excellence. Only a fraction can go to the U.S. or Europe. What happens to the rest?

Are you trying to say that 100% of the Pakistani excellence has elite parents like professor Masadi's to send their wards abroad to the most useless of colleges for most useless of study like sociology?

Yes, intellectually bankrupt and ideological empowered professor Masadi Amkrika return from a college in buckle of bible belt like should not have any place in meritocracy.

It must be a tragedy that a system of meritocracy has not been created or sustained in Pakistan. Without which it is impossible to bring out creme de la creme of excellence out in a society. I know in Pakistan you have private initiatives, why do you not start a private initiative, and keep it strictly meritocracy based. Please do not involve the corrupters like Professor Masadi, else you will be spending time eradicating cancer, rather than enforcing meritocracy.

#14

Apart from other aspects of this menace, I agree with what you have pointed out. I think when the coward runs for his career, the oppurtunist takes over!
I have often wondered as to what happned to once-progressive KU and its student movements. Later I realized that progressives left, right-wingers stayed besides getting scholarships abroad.
But who cares for places like KU or QAU! All liberals and secularists eye foriegn destinations. And so much true for their lives, that Individualism proovides ample food for their guilt-diet.

Good luck!
-E

#13 About ring wing professors taking control of Paki universities:

When I used to be a student, I felt that most of my religious minded friends opted to go back to Pakistan as they had trouble finding "Halal food", offering prayers during working hours, trying to find a lota for washroom (and some of them used to convert washrooms into swimming polls during their lotafication process) etc etc. They genuinely missed Pakistan and they ended up in Pakistan.

On the other hand, "liberal and secular" friends had no trouble with tissue papers in toilet, halal/haram and namaz stuff. Rather they were happy that they could have girl friends and evenings in bars and pubs. They got jobs in multinationals, opted to stay abroad to concentrate on careers instead of wasting their knowledge in Pakistan. (Exceptions are everywhere and I do have a lot of respect for someone who has the courage to sacrifice his career for his country.). So, most of them ended up in the west.

So, when all religious people go back to Pakistan and seculars remain abroad, what will happen to universities in Pakistan. They will be full of right wing Molvis. Well, That's what exactly happened to most of the universities.

Dr. Hoodbhoy,

Adding a few dots to your worry charts, let me tell you that Karachi University has been taken over by extremely right-wing professors (I doubt their scholarship anyway!). In social sciences, the epitome of knowledge is no more a learned fellow, but a rascal from the gutters of Dr. Javed Ansari's peepholes, Wahab Soori.

95 per cent KU students have no mercy for scientific arguments and critical thinking, as their cult figures teach them "Beware of Science, And Get Marriaged as asap!". What the hell one can expect?


-E

Hoodboy is an Indian Agent.

He wants scientists to be like bhikmange Brahmins who study for the sake of study.

Science must be Ummah oriented. Science must be full of Islamic values and must corrobrate Quranic Revelations.

Science must be studied for the sake of Islam and not for its own sake!!

Masadi zindabad........

Masadi for PM!!

Hamid Gul for Khalifa!!

laddu:
Down with Science.
Long live ranting.

Sometime, I feel the problems in Pakistan acdemia ( science Dept)is highly exaggerated. It can't be that bad. Remember Pakistan has exploded nuclear bombs, designed and produced long range rockets and believed to be ahead of India in military science and military is well trained and led according to military analysts.

So why someone cry," the sky is falling" ? This can only be somesort of personal agends.

Remember one can make very pursuasive arguments, but still one ( P. Hoodbhoy) could be totally wrong.
Kamath

Masadi Zindabad!!

Down with psuedo-scientists like Hoodbhoy!!

Sociology of Science zindabad!!

Down with Karl Popper!!!

Islamic Scientific methodology Zindabad!!

Ummahic Scientific Program Zindabad!!

Charlie, as I mentioned before, Pakistan needs fewer scientists like Professor Hoodbhoy, and more internationally acclaimed highly published Sociologists like Professor Masadi. And, yes, I know two scientists including Pervez (the author of this piece).

what a truly sad state of affairs.

I recently went to Karachi University and met some professors. When I asked one professor about his area of specialty, he just looked at me for a few moments and said, "I dont have any area so to speak, i teach whatever that is assigned to me."

That one sentence perhaps best describes what is ailing our public universities.

Kulli,

How may Pakistani scientists have you met? I know at least 10 Pakistani scientists doing very well in top research labs.

It is a shame that current QAU university students are unable to get good GRE score. I remember, when I left my univeristy (UET) in 2002, most of my friends scored 2000+ in GRE which was considered reasonably well. Well, may be, good students join engineering and medicine while rest of them study physics and mathematics at QAU.

Lastly, I have one friend (he happens to be gold medalist from QAU.) He is doing his PhD in robotics from Paris. A few days back, his research work was being appreciated on a french television where they were mentioning a new breakthrough in remote controlled robots for a medical surgery. While he was presenting his work, they were telling that he was a student from Pakistan. I really felt proud for the guy.

What a sad state of affairs. With sitting LHC judge
hobnobbing with under world dons to uni profs turning
QAU doctoral program into a cottage industry, Pakistan
is a mess. Where are the protests? Where are the talk
shows grilling these professors?

Thank you Professor Hoodbhoy, for exposing the ills that our institutions suffer from. It is not surprising because a Pakistani trained scientist at best gets a job driving a cab in the west, and at worst ends up in Dubai as menial labor. Pakistan should stop science education altogether, and produce more Sociologists like Professor Masadi to save our country.

Re: # 1
Masadi - you are the true voice that we all need in Pakistan.
Down with these sham Professors.
Up with the REAL Professors.

:)

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