Pakistan, Can You Hear Me?

I really do feel very sorry for you Pakis. Guys you are so concerned about your neighboring countries - strategic depth and all that you will achieve your strategic depth but lose your own Pure land in the process.

Poor Sri Lankans - they deserve it for going to the pure land.

Waise how does Sanatani = Shaitanic.

You must be a Sindhi Snake.

Vaise both countries will be ruled by Sindhi Snakes after India's elections.

Advani is also Mr 10% of a different kind.

Sanatani

Voh har such main 10% jhooth bolta hai

Re: # 371

Philo mian,

aap Panjabi hai ya muhajir ya phir Sindhi Snake hai.

Sanatani

Shaitanic various

you sound to me a kind of an idiot that could be used as a blueprint to build an as*hole. I heard you got a brain transplant and the brain rejected you?

You better stick to gao pu**y.Don't stretch urineself out about pakis and pakistan,it wont do u any good.

Re: # 323

Please export Sheikh Rashid to India. Ethe bhi ronakan hon giya. Labh labhe ham hame etc etc.

Sanatani

Re: # 315

Yaar tum pagal to nahin ho. Ho nahin to aise harkatein kyon karte ho.

Sanatani

Re: # 287

Goldie,

katha achi hai par tatpary kya hai. Matlab aap kehna ya samjhana kya chahte hai.

Sanatani

Re: # 285

What gives you the idea that Jud, christu, muslai are religions. They are murderous political philosophies like fascism, nazism and national socialism. There variants like mirzai and bahai are no better. And the parsis are almost as big ba$$$turds as the above mentioned.

You would not have even heard of a 10th of the indu schools of philosophies, smritis etc. If you wish to take anything stick to Bhartiya religion and its offshoots there shall be no problems.

Abrahamic 'faiths' are a curse on our planet.

Sanatani

Re: # 280

Moje,

abhi to yeh new and improved hua hai aur phir TC bhi ho gaya aur tumna iski patloon his nahin janghiya bhi utar diya. That post of yours was too much.

Anyway if Masadi is arrested for indecent exposure please bail him out and if he is caned on his backside for the same please give him camel urine as a salve.

Sanatani

Re: # 278

DM,

Like moderate Jaundice, Moderate Hepatitis and moderate syphlis right.

Is umar main koi musalmani patani he jo yeh sab jhoot likhte ho????

You as always were and are not worthy of any Regard(s)
Sanatani

Re: # 197

Please share the reason. Frankly I have not seen a more stupid and illogical book.

BTW have you read Muhammed Believe it or else.

That I think sums up the reason of Islam a sword next to your neck.

Sanatani

Re: # 174

Masadia Mian,

You surprise me. Maybe yeh Hamid mohammed bakwaas karta tha ki ap ek ghatiya college se ho. Mere ghar ke paas ka phuddu padri yeh sub kuch nahin janta.

Sanatani

Re: # 157

Moje,

your admiration for him as a pol scientist should be secondary to your admiration if that is the correct word for him as a psychologist for he is the Svenagli to you trilby's and has created a race of narcists in his own image. Which would not be too bad if they were not such homicidal maniacs. BTW I cannot appreciate when someone tries to kill me, I aprreciate kiling them instead.

Sanatani

Re: # 148

Arent all Paki christus chooras and sweepers.

Maybe we can learn from the cousins Panjabi muslais how christus should be treated just as we can learn from the Khalsa how the muslai should be.

Sanatani

Re: # 126

Hasho mian,

It is like this. Most Indian magazines are run by lefties. This is a vast mutual admiration society. It does not require character, brains or knowledge to be part of this. Just very good English spoken and not understood with slan etc. thrown in. Oh I forgot the most important ctiteria is you have to be secular, progreesive, Anti Hindu and 4M lover.

Voila your claptrap, idiotic, rubbish, balderdash, trash (i couldgo on) will be regulalry published. Lack of in depth knowledge, shallowness and style over substance are their other distinguishing features.

I have met Ayaz Amir and can say without hesitation I have not seen any Indian journalist or columnist who can match him for eloquence, knowledge and a humility to learn what he knows not.

Sanatani

And all this by a mile. The exception of course being Swapan Da and Arun Shourie but as most will not publish them they caanot be included here

Re: # 119

Moje,

first accept the existence of Pakistan and Pakistanis by heart.

We do 1 better we even accept the existince of Pakis in our country and give them Haj subsidy, personal law, 4 wives, minority instituions funded by the majority and I could go on.

And no we do not accept them by our heart BUT if they were to all go away to their owncountry we would accept all that and your country with all our heart.

Sanatani

Re: # 108

Tahmadya,

We are just trying to raise the standard. However jealousy is being shown (a negative trait) when it should arouse envy.

Sanatani

Re: # 61

that land was Indian. Humsab the pertinent point is WAS. And if people like me and my ilk who walked across leaving everything and still identify ourselves as a XYZ Khatri from ABC place in West Punjab and can pick up a family album and see my relatives in Swat and my elder borthers wifes great grand uncles house and we ourselves do NOT wish to profer advice then WHAT IS your Locus standi on the same.

And India Akalmand Admi give me a break. A nation of people that votes for its parliament thinking it to be a Mohalla RWA or a municipal election does not exactly fit into Mensa. Our nations complete lack of ENLIGHTENED SELF INTEREST (and no not the roshan khayali or progressiveness that the lefties talk about) renders us just 1 rank above IDIOTS. I could go on but I think you could get the point and If u do not well then I am sure others will about being akalmand.

Sanatani

Re: # 55

O Bhappe hun manu samajh payee. Eh artikal kyon likhya enne. Eh nahin chanda ki puthan a ke ohi batti pighli mom ne dal picche ghus dain kyunki madrasiye de vich o lan te nahin pawange. Apni bhund bacha reya hai.

Oh Brother now I inderstood, why he wrote the article. He doesnt want the Pathan to puts the candle with the melted wax in his rear orifice as he is a madrasi (all Tamil Bhai log please just let me use the pejorative once) the patahn would not bugger him he is just savng his ass.

On another though I am wondering why does this guy bother so much about pak land and not about India e.g. the naxal issue. I think as a commie he has a creators interest in the same after all the commies are the mid wife of the Pak movement. As regards the naxal issue he maybe has wet dreams about them taking over India a la Taliban.

And what sort of a self respecting Tamils name is Rkesh.

Sanatani

Re: # 53

And you discovered that with an Electron Microscope or with Scanning Tunnel one.

FYI MJ Akbar is more dangerous than the talibs they we know are the enemy but these 1s are those who cr8 takiyah.

MJ is an out and out Islamist and let nothing he says fol you.

Sanatani

Re: # 46

It is still better than Indians electing antigod communists.
On this Madani Mian I will wholly agree with you. In fact I consider Pak superior to India for the way they have treated commies.

Sanatani

Re: # 40

I have also seen the same. It was such pure comedy.

Any revisionist bhai took me to meet to a Amreeke of Paki origin and told him "You have such wonderful and colourful leaders like Sheikh Rashid" oh te raunaka laga dende nai.

The paki preened and was delighted and strutted like a peacock and tried to show vakfiyat with that imbecile and he was an investment banker recently laid off trying to get a job in India.

I controlled my laughter in front of him but ws delirous once it was over. Paks are even more delusional than us.

Sanatani

Re: # 36

I love it when I see the equivalents of Anil and RM in Pakistan.

Hasho mian please re read history.

For your enlightenment the 1st chapter of Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders.

CHAPTER I
NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE ON INDIAN HISTORY


Mathew Arnold had composed his famous lines with reference to a particular context. He had the Buddha and similar Hindu sages in mind when he wrote the following famous lines:

The East bowed low before the blast,
In patient deep disdain;
She let the legions thunder past,
And plunged in thought again.
Little did the poet suspect that his tribute to Hindu spirituality would be twisted to embellish an imperialist version of Indian history according to which the ?meek Hindu? had always been preoccupied with sterile speculations, and seldom stood up in defence of his country and culture.


PERVERSE VERSION OF INDIAN HISTORY


This version of Indian history was formulated by a few misinformed or motivated British historians. But many Hindus participated in popularising this version in the mistaken belief that they were thus proving the superiority of India?s ?spiritual culture? over the materialistic civilization of the modern West. In due course, this became the standard lore taught in our schools and colleges under the system of education sponsored by Christian missionaries and British bureaucrats. The same system of education has not only continued after independence but has also multiplied manifold. It has spread this version of Indian history to larger and larger segments of succeeding generations. Muslim and Marxist ?historians? have promoted it with an ever increasing zeal. They may not have any use for Hindu spirituality. But they find this version of Indian history very convenient for advancing their imperialist causes.


In the process, India?s history has become a history of foreign invaders - Aryans, Iranians, Greeks, Parthians, Scythians, Kushans, Arabs, Turks, Persians, Portuguese, Dutch, French, and British - rather than a history of the greatest civilization which the world has known, and later on of Hindu heroism which fought and ultimately frustrated all foreign invaders. India itself has become a sub-continent seething with a mass of heterogeneous humanity rather than an ancient and indivisible Hindu homeland. Indian people have become a conglomeration of nationalities, racial groups and religious communities which are finding it difficult to co-exist in peace, rather than a national society which is trying to reform itself and reclaim some of its unfortunate sections alienated from it by successive waves of Islamic, Christian and modern Western imperialism. And Indian culture has become a mechanical mixture of odds and ends, indigenous and imported, rather than a homogeneous whole created by a vast spiritual vision which is finding itself ill at ease with incompatible impositions.


It was this version of India?s history which gave a good conscience to the British imperialist while he pulverised Hindu society, plundered Hindu wealth and poured undisguised contempt on Hindu culture. It was this version of India?s history which emasculated Hindu society and emboldened the residues of Islamic imperialism to stage street riots and then walk away with precious parts of the Hindu homeland, thus consolidating an aggression which had not succeeded even though mounted again and again for more than a thousand years. It is this version of India?s history which is being invoked by the fifth-columns of Islam, Christianity, and Communism, each of which looks forward to a final conquest of this country with the help of foreign finances and, if need be, foreign firearms. And it is this version of India?s history which is being promoted by power-hungry politicians who woo the Muslim vote-bank while they divide Hindu society into mutually hostile camps.


PUTTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT


Hindu society owes it to its own survival in the present and to the prosperity of its future generations to repudiate this perverse version of India?s history, and to put the record straight so that no one dares divorce Hindu spirituality from Hindu heroism, Hindu nation from the Hindu homeland, and Hindu culture from the national culture of India. Hindu saints, sages and scholars in general and Hindu historians in particular have to come forward to do their duty towards their society and culture and to pay homage to their ancient heritage. Hindu Dharmashãstras have enjoined upon every Hindu to repay according to his or her capacity the rishi-riNa, that is, the debt we owe to our seers and sages, by passing on to the next generation the Veda and the Itihãsa-PurãNa, that is, the spiritual and cultural vision of Sanatana Dharma and the historical tradition of Hindu heroism. In the present situation, that is perhaps also the best way to repay the pitri-riNa, that is, the debt we owe to our forefathers for the protection, preservation and perpetuation of our great Hindu society and its continuously creative culture.


The latest scholar and historian to repay the rishi-riNa in an ample measure is Dr. Ram Gopal Misra whose monograph has been published recently.1


The book is small in size. But it is packed with painstaking research, and is thus a solid and substantial contribution to the history of a comparatively obscure period of Indian history. What is more important is the perspective. ?The present thesis,? writes Dr. Misra in his Preface, ?is an attempt to provide a connected account of the prolonged and sustained efforts made by Indians to stem the tide of early Muslim invaders. The political and military resistance was spread over more than five and half centuries till its final collapse in northern India in the last decade of the 12th Century A.D. For long, historians have emphasised merely the ultimate collapse of the Indians, ignoring completely the resistance offered by them. It is a fact of history that such sustained resistance as encountered by the Muslim arms in India was not faced by them in any other land conquered by them? The Indian resistance had another facet, which was the outcome of the resolute determination of the Indians to preserve their religious and cultural identity. While country after country, from the straits of Gibralter to the banks of the Indus, witnessed the rapid Islamization of their individual cultures, even Northern India managed to survive as a predominantly ?heathen? land even after five centuries of Muslim rule.?2


THE NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE


Dr. Misra?s monograph deals with a specific period limited in its time-span. But the perspective he provides in processing this period is pertinent to the entire panorama of Indian history. For long, India has been depicted as a no-man?s-land which invader after invader has claimed as an easy prize, and into which diverse races, religions, and cultures have acquired an equal legitimacy. Dr. Misra rejects this perspective effectively and forcefully when he portrays India as the homeland of an ancient people who are united by a distinct and deeply spiritual culture, and who are prepared to fight and defy death in defence of their patrimony. The national perspective that thus emerges from Dr. Misra?s monograph is relevant not only to a correct reading of India?s past but also to a correct appraisal of India?s present-day politics.


This national perspective on India?s history had been alive and active in our national consciousness all through the long-drawn-out struggle against Islamic imperialism, though it had expressed itself more as a religious and cultural idiom than as a political ideology. It had come into sharp focus in course of the Swadeshi Movement (1905-09) when the brave resistance offered by the Rajputs and the turning of tables by the Marathas and the Sikhs, had become a backdrop for the freedom fight being waged against British imperialism. The residues of Islamic imperialism like the Aligarh school of Muslim politicians had taken fright at this re-affirmation of the national perspective, and sought protection from the British against the rising tide of Indian nationalism.


POLITICS PERVERTS HISTORY


It was only later on that the national perspective was frowned upon by a political leadership which was out to seek Muslim support for the national movement as a short-cut to a quick and peaceful transfer of power. The Muslim support failed to materialise. Instead, Islamic imperialism became parasitic on the national movement, and continued to fatten till it succeeded in partitioning the country. But in the process, the national perspective on Indian history stood subverted in all its essentials. We are now paying the price in the from of renewed aggression from Islamic imperialism, and the growing fissiparous tendencies within the national fold.


The national perspective had become diluted when some scribes, patronised by an opportunist or self-alienated political leadership, had started parading Siraj-ud-Dawla, Hyder Ali, Tipu Sultan and Bahadur Shah, the last Mughal, as Indian patriots, and pillorying Mir Jafar and Omichand as traitors. It had become distorted when the Mughal empire had begun to be depicted as a native political system in which its victims, the Hindus, were harangued to take as much pride as they had done earlier in the Maurya, the Andhra, and the Gupta empires. And it had suffered a total perversion when the Mamluks, the Khaljis, the Tughlaqs, the Sayyads, the Lodis and the Bahmanis were transformed into indigenous dynasties on par with the Maukharis, the Rashtrakutas, the Chalukyas, the Chandellas, the Chauhans, and so on. In the process, the bulkwarks of national resistance like Mewar and Vijayanagar were reduced to puny Hindu principalities on par with provinces ruled by Muslim governors, and indomitable freedom fighters like Rana Pratap and Shivaji were cut down to the size of local chieftains on par with Muslim rebels who frequently ran foul of their imperialist overlords at Delhi or Agra.


INSIDIOUS IMAGE OF HINDU PERSONALITY


Still more serious was the emergence of an insidious image of Hindu personality as a direct result of this loss of the national perspective on Indian history. In due course, most Hindus, particularly the English-educated Hindu elite, have been made to believe that a Hindu is not true to himself nor to his religion and culture unless he 1) honours as his own heroes all those invaders and crusaders who demolished his temples, desecrated the images of his Gods and Goddesses, burnt his Shãstras, humiliated his holy men, dishonoured his women, pillaged his property, massacred his countrymen en masse, sold his children into slavery, trampled upon every symbol of his religion and culture, and coerced his co-religionists to swear by an aggressive and intolerant dogma glorified as the Kalima; 2) shows reverence for an ideology of calculated and cold-blooded gangesterism masquerading as the only true religion; 3) pays homage to all those pretenders, scoundrels, and hoodlums which this ideology presents as its sufis, saints and heroes; 4) practises patience and tolerance towards those who vow openly and work ceaselessly to destroy his religion and culture, and to take forcible possession of his homeland; and 5) is always prepared to surrender everything he possesses or cherishes in order to avoid violence and bloodshed.


HISTORY OF HINDU HEROISM


Dr. Misra is one of those few historians who have helped Hindu society not only to recover the national perspective on Indian history but also to resurrect the heroic image of Hindu personality. In giving a blow by blow account of how Hindus fought tenaciously and for a long time for every inch of their homeland in the face of an inveterate enemy inspired by a diabolical creed, he has brought out in bold relief not only the fact that Hindus were second to none when it came to making sacrifices for their motherland but also the fact that Hindus were fighting in defence of something which they valued above their very lives. ?The early successes of Islam,? he writes, ?were against religions which had lost their hold on the minds of the people. But in India the Hindu way of life, symbolised by high moral values of tolerance, truthfulness and justice was very much the part and parcel of the multitude?s mental and material being. These eternal and moral values of life which constitute the core of Hinduism were to sustain it in the next five centuries of Muslim and another two centuries of British rule. The conclusion, therefore, seems inescapable that much of the decline in social and moral values of Hindu society is the result and not the cause of their foreign subjugation.?3


INDIGENOUS SOURCES OF INDIAN HISTORY


His book has 8 chapters besides an Introduction and a Conclusion. The most important chapter to my mind is Chapter V in which he has reproduced, with English translation and explanatory comments, a selection of Sanskrit inscriptions from different places in India ranging from Hansi in Haryana to Gauhati in Assam, and from Badaun in Uttar Pradesh to Nagpur in Maharashtra. These inscriptions refer to significant events which have been either not cited or suppressed by medieval Muslim historians upon whom modern historians have depended so far for narration of events in that period. ?Exclusive dependence on Persian and Arabic sources,? observes Dr. Misra, ?for an account of Muslim invasions, is apt to produce an unbalanced view. The basic prejudices of the Muslim historians, who mostly belonged to the Ulema class, against other religions, make them reject any other account, however authentic, if it tends to subvert their basic belief in the might of Islam. The victories of the arms of Islam have been elaborately described while the reverses have either been conveniently omitted or painted as having ended in negotiations and tribute. Even when described, only minor details are made available.?4


In the articles that follow I will summarise Dr. Misra?s account of Hindu heroism spread over several centuries.


Footnotes:

1 Ram Gopal Misra, Indian Resistance to Early Muslim Invaders Upto 1206 A.D., Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut city, 1983. The book has been reprinted in 1992.
2 Emphasis added.

3 Ibid., p. 9. Emphasis added.

4 Ibid., p.64.

Re: # 31

The Taliban state or what passes for one is a totalarian state not apolice one. Under certain conditions such a state may be totalarian without EVEN being authoritarian.

The analogy is simply put completely wrong.

Sanatani

Re: # 30

Very well said

Sanatani

Re: # 28

Famous last words. When TK Vyas could be killed in the heart of hyderabad it is when and not if we will find ourself in the same situation.

And when the naxals make sex workers out of the women in your family then you can explain the socio economic conditions behind the same

Sanatani

Re: # 27

Abe Kapri kyon is nai ki patlun utar raha hai. Vaise you being a commie have you heard of Ghaslitand and Kaluchak.

Sanatani

And no Hindu jhatka only muslai halal.

Sanatani

Kill all commies and lefties as Wajib-ul-Qatl.

Sanatani

Re: # 26

Moje,

Also please see Shri Bharat Varsha main to anil aur Rakesh Mani ki adbhieesh (advice pronounced in Bangali accent) nahin lega. Aur Bangalideshi aur Lankan aur Nepali bhi inse nahin baat karenege. So like all Commies who believe there word carries lot of weight with Pakis they are trying to give you some.

Vaise if you are a leftie then may you die slowly and when Allah sends you to hellfire and damnation then may you be find the same in 4'*2'*2' steel trunk and anil and RM be locked with you there.

Sanatani

Re: # 15

Mojo Sahib,

aap thore confused aur krodhit (gusse main ya angry) lagte hain. It is jaiz this krodh (gussa or anger).

But seeing this imbeciles statement in 11 I say do not be krodhit (gusse main ya angry) he is intelectually and mentally handicapped so cannot give a better answer.

Having said that I hope you will take this statement of mine in the right spirit.

If ever Pakistan was to ask Indias true advise (true in the spirit of neighbours not cringing not as younger brother and not with any attitude of servitude) they would get the best possible advice. But then you would not ask and if you did would not implement.

And our gods have as yet not forsaken us that you will ask evaluate and accept.

The truth hurts.

Sanatani

Re: # 6

Ok you are Rakesh Mani a WASP and that too of the highest caste a Boston Brahmin.

Heres to the City of Boston,

Land of the bean and the cod,

Where Rakesh's speak only to Mani's,

And Mani's speak only to God.

Happy

Your idiocy is stupeltyfying and IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT AMUSING

Please enlighten us O Mani of Bhole Shankar how have you come to the conclusions that you have written about.

What is your knowledge of Pak and Muslims.

One specific thing that was mentioned by the Swatis themselves which has something to do with Swats pre-1969 status that allowed the Talibs to get the initial foot hold in Swat combined with what has been said by famous Islamic jurists on the state in which Pakistan finds itself now and how these factors have influenced the overall events. I await with bated breath on your enlightenment to us O Baastankar.

Sanatani

Re: # 2

Brilliantly said. As I said we have too many Pak experts who know nothing about that country.

We have our own many-a-mess to solve but this seems to escape these buggers. But then what can 1 expect from people who say that Naxalism is a socio-economic problem (probably like crime and why Bundelkhand and the Chambal have dacoits)

Warm Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 1

Mojo,

well said. I think this guy does not understand Pak, Islam and I feel cannot distinguish between his rear and forward holes.

I wonder why do these guys write about these things when they do not understand. The problem is that Pakis see Indians with their own glasses and Indians with their own. The problem is compounded as the Paks think Indians have nothing in common with them and the Indians think that Pakis are Indians who happend to be Muslims (which by the way is the correct definition of Indian muslism.) Also since Indians do not understand their own muslims it is not possible for them to understand Pakis at all.

To the Indians I shall give you a small example. I got talking to the wannabe Barkha dutts some dumbs cu*!#$^ts from NDTV. They had met Asma Jahangir and they were trying to equate that gr8 lady with gasp .... Arundhati Roy. When I pressed them more they started talking balderdash about how both were fighting the male dominated ethos (and this word ethos struck me and I was surprised as I had once used this word unknowingly and was made mincemeat out of my opponent so I asked her if she new what the word meant for which I got dirty look that menat you SoB you have caught me). To continue I probed them further so Arundhati speaking against the A bomb and the Godhra riots and Asma's campaign for Human rights with an emphasis on women was the same. To my question that fighting a police state and Islamist extremists and tradionalists against 1 that is democratic and where you have a huge frivolous machinery of press and NGO's that treats and venerates these kind of traitorious scum as close to Avtars and Devtas backed by an imperial judiciary and which can be cranked up to create such a deafaning clamour that will drown out all issues of national importance is breathtaking.

There shallowness was shocking but more shocking was that smugnees, illiteracy and lack of proper education.

On your lawyers movement u r being far too self satisfied. The army was tiring of mush so effed him. Boss read Imran's statements if Benazir had not been assasainated then Mushie would still be the President.

The problem with both sets of people is that either they are too critical or not critical at all.

Sanatani

Ethos: the fundamental character or spirit of a culture

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Re: # 338

bubba mian,

.... you are mixing apples with oranges ..... kashmir has nothing to do with all those clowns and their shennigans that you talk about ...... and as much as i hate to say this, india was, is and will remain our biggest enemy ...... as soon as pir pagara dies and zardari is assasinated (which will happen the day he steps out of the presidency) plm a-z will become one party, so we don't have to worry about it .......

..... personally my favourite politician nowdays (other than sheikh rashid) is asfandyar wali ..... why? because he is a decent man and a close relative - his wife's third cousin is married to my mother's cousin's sister-in-laws nephew .........

president kiyani zindabad!
destroy india!

Re: # 332 Posted by hamidm2 on March 1, 2009 7:10:41 am

hamid mian,

you sound like charleston heston with your "let my people go" sloganeering. why should unwashed masses worry about "your people?" don't they have enough to worry about already? it was just too funny to read the recent nytimes editorial on pakiland. paki ruling elite and their lotas are fighting for the punjoos sanity instead of good sanitary conditions, paki military is still india centric instead of domestic security, beardos are all over punjab and have also penetrated inside alt-f's turf in urban sind, and us drones are having a field day in the fata region, shias are being slaughtered, any day we will see the paki branch of hizbullah coming in to protect the shais, and asfandiyar will lose to our own karachi's fearless leader who studied at st. patrick's, and the paki legilators think that they are some israeli knesset.

What a show of stupidity shown by punjoos for all these years in our land of the pure?

hamid mian, would it be difficult for these bunch of idiots to isolate from JI and all those religious fanatics, and make their case independent of them. Believe me they might still have a chance to remain an effective party in punjab, otherwise pml-q would make them toast.

#334 hamidm2

[.... are you suggesting that you want to expel all kashmiris from the occupied territories ? ........ as my kids would say: "that is so lame!" ..... ]

Yes, that's right. They can pick up their chappals and lotas and start walking towards Mecca. It would be wonderful, of course, if every Muslim in India would follow them, but getting rid of cancer is not so easy.

[my offer still stands and if you don't take it we will destroy india even if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction and we take out half (which hopefully includes raiwind and mansoora) of pakistan ......... what good are nukes if you don't use them ]

Uncle Sam is watching over Pakiland's nukes. India's nukes are India's. We can turn Pakiland to glass if we want. So beware. :)

hamid mian,

BTW , are you sure you have control over your nukes??

I am told that the secret jammers in command and control circuits make them useless on some Paki Jernail's attempts to detonate them any where.........

Amrikis are clever.........even for Islami-munafiques like you......

Re: # 332

hamid mian,

You are now terrorizing me........ into submission..... I hope you do not expect me to say that Allah is the greatest of all the demons?

Re: # 333

ajeya mian,

.... are you suggesting that you want to expel all kashmiris from the occupied territories ? ........ as my kids would say: "that is so lame!" ..... my offer still stands and if you don't take it we will destroy india even if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction and we take out half (which hopefully includes raiwind and mansoora) of pakistan ......... what good are nukes if you don't use them

#329 hamidm2

[.... the only beef (or bhaji, if you prefer) i have with india is over kashmir - if you let our people go we promise not to bother you ..... otherwise as sheikh rashid said we will "destroy india" .... and trust me, we can - we have nukes ]

hamidm2-ji,

The only beef I have with pakiland is that your people won't go. If they don't go we will destroy pakiland - break it into little pieces. And unlike Sheikh Rashid's plans, the process of breaking Pakiland has begun already. Will your people leave now, or should we continue?

Re: # 331

laddu mian,

.... don't worry your sideways wagging head about what we are going to do with kashmir - we will manage ..... now, please let my people go or, as sheikh rashid says, we will destroy india

hamid mia,

what will you do with kashmir, you will lose it to Islamists??.........how about regaining SWAT first......

hamidm #329 "let our people go"??? The same "unwashed masses" that your exalted majesty think need a tinpot to rule over them. please go easy on the hypocrisy.

Re: # 328

shakar mian,

.... the only beef (or bhaji, if you prefer) i have with india is over kashmir - if you let our people go we promise not to bother you ..... otherwise as sheikh rashid said we will "destroy india" .... and trust me, we can - we have nukes

..... as for the rest of it, you don't have to worry about it .... moslems have been killing each other since abu bakr and his henchmen swindled ali out of his throne .....

hamid mian,

Pakistan is in the midst of a civil war (call it by any other name, its still a civil war), your useless politicians are again bickering, corruption is on an all time high & your military (which has the dubious honor of NEVER winning any war in its glorious history) has once again capitulated, even though it outnumbered militant 3 to 1. No wonder the rest of the world is worrying that Pakistan is on the brink of an abyss.

My mashoor phelewan, you are worried of the plight of the Kashmiris! Hey maybe we crap in public, but we are not the international migraine in the world. So, please let us horrible Hindus take a dump in peace. Trust me, the stink wafting from the west of the border inst just making India, but the rest of the world retch too.

Re: # 326

bubba mian,

.... from what i read, hear and smell, the horrible hindoos need sanitary conditions a lot more than the pathetic pakis .....

president kiyani zindabad!
destroy india!

Re: # 320 Posted by hamidm2 on February 28, 2009 8:51:45 pm

hamid mian,

[.. to restore sanity] sanity!?! the unwashed masses in puristan need good sanitary conditions first. did you ever find a sane paki anywhere in this world?

Re: # 321

jayp,

democracy is highly overrated - it is meant for the more civilized and evolved white people who have been at it for centuries and is wasted on primitive savages and people of color who are just learning to walk upright .....

.......even the horrible hindoos would do much much better without the nonsense of democracy ..... india, the world's biggest sum, will never - not in a thousand years - be even close to becoming china, or for that matter, syria ..... regardless of all the hype about shining india and high flautin it (read satyam) india is, and will remain, a country of open sewers where people sleep and defecate - the lucky few get to relieve themselves on railroad tracks ....... you can say whatever you want about hafiz asad, but delhi will never be damascus and for us pakis mingora will never be hama ...........


president kiyani zindabad!
prime minister asfandyar zindabad!
death to the taliban!
destroy india!

#312 Posted by dost_mittar on February 28, 2009 6:25:27 pm

Seeing as how more pakis have been killed by the military aid and the balance iwth india hasn't been affected one bit, i don't see exactly how that's a serious problem...

hard for you kuldip nayyar types to make drive by insights when the other person knows the facts(and is willing to produce links)...

#316 Posted by hamidm2

"as sheikh rashid sahib always says, "if india tries to make trouble we will destroy india!" ..... "

Better said than done. If Pakiland was capable of that, they would not have waited for India to create trouble. As such it would suit their islam agenda

Indian soap sizzles on Brazilian TV
1 Mar 2009, 0514 hrs IST, Saira Kurup, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: A television soap about saas-bahu rivalry and forbidden love between a Dalit boy and upper-caste girl is topping TV
ratings - not in India, but in distant Brazil.

The success of ‘Caminho das Indias’, which roughly translates as ‘passage to India’, shows that it's not just 'Slumdog Millionaire' that is successfully showcasing an Indian story abroad.

The actors are all Brazilian, but the characters manifestly Indian, wearing saris, churidar-kurtas and ghagra-cholis . They speak Portuguese but use Hindi terms like namaste , firangi , chai and chalta hai . Saas-bahu tensions sizzle on Brazilian TV sets, as well as Indian customs such as touching the feet of elders.

Re: # 320

hamidm,

Hope some is listening to you. democrazy is not suited for any islamic country, essentially islam requires a kalifa, the choice is should it be a military kalifa or a civilian one like zardari.

Any day, a military one is preferable, especially in pakistan, so that the indians know who is incharge. I recall the good old days of mushy, there was no confusion, no sacking of so many for telling the truth in the case of mumbai and accepting the isi role.

If mushy were there, he would have so consistantly denied it and that is good.

bhaiyo,

..... today i am formally launching the movement to restore sanity and military rule in pakistan ..... i propose afsandyar wali khan as prime minister under the leadership of president kiyani .......

prime minister afsandyar wali khan zindabad!

Re: # 317

tahmed mian,

..... 'we' includes the 16 crore awam of pakistan minus the three hundred lawyers and the 4-5 thousand followers of baitullah and fazlullah .....

.... you are either with 'us' or against 'us' ..... if you are against us you will become one of the 'disappeards' ......

president kiyani zindabad!

.........cowasjee, the crazy but lovable curmudgeon has the answer: "Let us not forget former COAS Gen Wahid Kakar who in 1993, without raising a stick or moving a brigade saw off, calmly and peacefully, both president and prime minister." ........... kiyani, are you listening?

general kakar zindabad!

Hamidm: Who is this "we" that want dictatorship in Pakistan?? just curious.

Re: # 308

bubba mian,

..... who said we want to return to the pre-47 style of life? ..... all we want is for pakistan to return to the 60's and be like other moslem countries such as morocco or egypt ..... we want a hosni mubarak or king mohammad VI ..... that's all we want .... and we want the pakistan army to make sure the horrible hindoos don't dare to create any trouble for us ....... as sheikh rashid sahib always says, "if india tries to make trouble we will destroy india!" .....


sheikh rashid zindabad!

The only option,

With pakistan becoming terror central the world has very few options.

Micro manage pakistan, which the special diplomates from usa, uk, germany and soon australia re supposed to do.

This micro managing should include pakia army so they also know that teh white man is the boss. It has been reported that sheriff decision by the paki sc was passed on to the us two days earlier.

The country has to be criss crossed with spies from india, us, uk and israle. When there is some action to be taken, then it will be coordinated, otherwise they should act independently.

Each os these spy orgs should establish local criminal/political/sectarian groups to create chaos when needed.

Then of course pakistan should be resized at teh appropriate time. Creation of paktoonistan that khan abdul gaffar khan struggled for should be the first to become a reality.

This paktoonistan will act as the buffer between pakiland and afghanistan where the us and nato forces will be able to eliminate taliban and al quida. This will leave pakistan as the al-quida central till it is resized.

dost_mittar#311....I googled and found this:

www.india-defence.com/reports-3869
Indian Defence Budget Could Touch US$ 40 Billion In 2009

Daily News & Updates
India Defence Premium
Dated 15/6/2008

India is planning to raise its military budget by 50% to almost $40 billion, making military expenditure 3% of the annual gross domestic product (GDP), the defense minister said.

"Our current defense spending is lower than 2% [of GDP]...and it should be at least 3%," A. K. Antony said at a meeting with top military commanders on Tuesday, without specifying a timeframe. India raised its defense spending in February by 10% to $26.5 billion for the fiscal year 2008-2009, but it still fell below 2% of GDP for the first time in at least a decade.

India's neighbors and long-term rivals, Pakistan and China, allocate around 3.5% and 4.3% of GDP to defense, respectively. The minister said top priority must be given to the modernization of the Indian Armed Forces and half of the defense budget should be allocated for the purchase of new military equipment.

"The modernization of armed forces has become a global trend," he said. "We must also assume a new approach taking into account a variety of threats to our national security." The Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India said in a report last year that over the past three years, India had spent as much as $10.5 billion on military imports, making it amongst the largest arms importers in the developing world.

India's military imports are expected to reach $30 billion by 2012 with its armed forces expected to ink defense deals for at least 126 multirole fighters, 155-mm howitzers, a variety of helicopters and long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft.

Chowk a measure of pakistani mood..

There was a time when ylh, romair etc were on chowk, talking about the great achievements of pakistan. Now they all have left the chowk, they have realized the hopeless situation their country is in, they feel the humiliation of being a pakistani where the govt is being dictated by others, they have lost all sense of independance.

It is only a few others like tahmed who cannot see the reality and accept are still on chowk, defending the TNT, the isi and the rest.

In every walks of life, every where in teh world, a pakistani is faced with thsi terrible feeling of shame and humiliation and the cyber space also should be no different.

So my dear pakistanis, we indians on chowk are not doinmg something new, it is what every pakistani faces in real world.

There are ways to overcome this tragedy, it should start with removing one photo from public offices, condemn the tnt, and then there could be hope.

arjun#309:

It's actually the Pakistanis who have infiltrated NYT. Anytime, such articles appear in the American media, the US increases aid to Pakistan to prevent the potential threat. ;)

Goldfinger#310:

It is hard to take seriously journalists who don't check their facts and base their analysis on hearsay. India didn't jack its defense budget by 55 per cent nor did the police arrest ex army col (not serving) Prohit for Samjhota Express explosion, his arrest is for Malegaon bombing.

The News International

Bharatiya Sthalsena
Sunday, March 01, 2009
Dr Farrukh Saleem

One out of every 200 Indians is already employed by the Indian Armed Forces. Three out of every four Indians already live at or less than $2 a day. Bharat Sarkar (the Government of India) has, however, now jacked up the defence budget by a massive 55 percent. Who is India going to fight with?

India has 3,773,300 troops, plus 1,089,700 paramilitary forces (www.nationmaster.com). India's army is second only to China in size. The Indian Air Force, with a total aircraft strength of 1,700, is the world's 4th largest. The Indian Navy already operates some 13 dozen vessels with INS Viraat as its flagship, the only "full-deck aircraft carrier operated by a country in Asia or the Western Pacific, along with operational jet fighters." Who is India going to fight with?

India has six neighbours; Pakistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burma, Nepal and China. India now spends a colossal $32.35 billion on defence, Pakistan $4.8 billion, Bangladesh $830 million, Nepal $100 million and Burma $30 million (according to Business Standard, India's second-largest financial daily, "There is no apparent reason for India to understate its defence budget. No IMF conditions constrain defence spending…. But India continues to camouflage what other comparable liberal democracies transparently show as defence spending). Collectively, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Nepal spend $5.7 billion a year on defence. Who is India going to fight with?

Yes, there's China and the People's Republic spends $80 billion a year on defence. According to a report by Stratfor, the Texas-based private intelligence agency, "China has been seen as a threat to India, and simplistic models show them to be potential rivals. In fact, however, China and India might as well be on different planets. Their entire frontier runs through the highest elevations of the Himalayas. It would be impossible for a substantial army to fight its way through the few passes that exist, and it would be utterly impossible for either country to sustain an army there in the long term. The two countries are irrevocably walled off from each otherl.... Ideally, New Delhi wants to see a Pakistan that is fragmented, or at least able to be controlled. Towards this end, it will work with any power that has a common interest and has no interest in invading India."

To be certain, India and China are not military rivals. Who is India then going to fight with? Bharatiya Sthalsena (the Indian Army) has a total of 13 corps, of which six are strike corps. Of the 13 corps at least seven have their guns pointed towards Pakistan. The 3rd Armoured Division, 2nd Armoured Brigade, 4 RAPID (Reorganised Army Plains Infantry Divisions), Jaisalmer AFS, Utarlai AFS and Bhuj AFS are all aiming at splitting Pakistan into two (by capturing the Kashmore/Guddu Barrage-Reti-Rahimyar Khan triangle).

On Jan 21, 2009, India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) tested BrahMos, the supersonic cruise missile (from Brahmaputra and the Moskva of Russia). According to India Today, the "test failure was due to a software error (unit cost $2.73 million)."

On July 9, 2006, DRDO test fired Agni III (unit cost $8 million). The missile remained airborne for a mere five minutes and then fell into the sea off the coast of Orissa. The following day, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) failed to launch a satellite when its rocket veered off course (destroying an Insat-4C satellite). The combined value of the satellite and the rocket was Rs2.5 billion. Agni III was test fired again on April 12, 2007, and then once again on May 7, 2008.

In 1974, DRDO began developing Arjun tank. It took DRDO 30 years--with billions wasted--to deliver the first five units. In July 2008, the Indian Army said it was "capping Arjun's induction at 124 units." DRDO now plans to deliver the remaining units sometime in 2009.

In November 2008, Lt Col Shrikant Purohit was arrested by the Mumbai Anti-Terrorism squad for his involvement in the Samjhauta Express bombings. Sudha Ramachandran, writing for Asia Time Online, said, "The arrests have triggered a heated debate…. The probes point to the possibility of the hitherto secular and apolitical Indian Army being infected by the communal virus."

Some nine years ago, India committed to achieve goals established at the Millennium Summit 2000. With so much money going into defence India is staring into a whole matrix of failures: failure in eradicating "extreme poverty and hunger"; failure in reducing the number of underweight children; failure in reducing child mortality; failure in reducing maternal mortality and failure in combating HIV/AIDS, malaria and other diseases.

Why a country 75 percent of whose population is at or below $2 a day is bent upon spending $32.35 billion for the acquisition of more killing machines? Who is India then going to fight with?



The writer is the executive director of the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). Email: farrukh15@hotmail.com

hatefoool hindooos infiltrate the nyt

February 28, 2009
Editorial
Playing With Fire in Pakistan

Almost no one wants to say it out loud. But between the threats from extremists, an unraveling economy, battling civilian leaders and tensions with its nuclear rival India, Pakistan is edging ever closer to the abyss.

In a report this week, The Atlantic Council warned that Pakistan’s stability is imperiled and that the time to change course is fast running out. That would be quite enough for any government to deal with. Then on Wednesday, Pakistan’s Supreme Court added new fuel upholding a ruling barring opposition leader Nawaz Sharif — a former prime minister — and his brother from holding elected office. That touched off protests across Punjab Province, the Sharifs’ power base and Pakistan’s richest and politically most important province.

The Sharifs charge that the Supreme Court is a tool of President Asif Ali Zardari. They are backing anti-government lawyers who have long campaigned for the reinstatement of the country’s former top judge who was dismissed by former Gen. Pervez Musharraf in 2007.

We don’t know if Mr. Zardari orchestrated this ruling, as Nawaz Sharif and many others have charged. (The government actually argued Mr. Sharif’s side in the case, which stems from an earlier politically motivated criminal conviction.) We do know the danger of letting this situation get out of control.

When Mr. Zardari became president, he pledged to unite the country. He has not. Like Mr. Zardari, Mr. Sharif is a flawed leader and no doubt is manipulating the combustible court ruling for personal political gain.

For Pakistan’s democracy to survive, a robust opposition must be allowed to flourish and participate peacefully in the country’s political life. That includes finding a way for Mr. Sharif to run for office.

It also means Pakistan must get serious about tackling its problems, including the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Mr. Zardari, whose wife, Benazir Bhutto, was assassinated by extremists, seems to understand.

Unfortunately, the powerful chief of the Pakistani Army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, still seems far more focused on the potential threat of India than the clear and present danger of the extremists. He is said to have supported the recent deal in which the government effectively ceded the Swat Valley — in the border region but just 100 miles from Islamabad — to militants in a misguided bid for a false peace.

Pakistanis need to understand that this is their fight, not just America’s. We hope top American officials delivered that message loudly and clearly when General Kayani visited Washington this week.

There was a time when Messrs. Zardari and Sharif pledged to work together for the good of Pakistan. Their country is in mortal danger. And they need to find a way to work together to save it.

Re: # 304 Posted by hamidm2 on February 28, 2009 9:26:58 am

Hamid mian,

I am not sure that paki military are capable of installing british elite way of life in puristan anymore. After Zia, things have gotten messy, especially within the establishment.

For pakis to get back to pre-1947 way of living, they must invite international military to save pakis from themselves. I think times are ripe to ask NATO to extend its peace keeping mission to include pakiland as well. What do you think?

Pakistani parents, can you hear me.

More and more students bunking off classes
Sunday, March 01, 2009
Saadia Khalid

Islamabad

With our country suffering from a considerably low literacy rate, the country’s youth is busy showing a non-serious attitude towards education, which is evident from their habit of bunking off their classes in educational institutions.

It has become a routine sight of young girls and boys, clad in school and college uniforms, roaming around the city, especially in parks at a time when their institutions are still open.

All major recreational spots of the city including Lake View Park, Rose & Jasmine Garden, Fatima Jinnah Park and Daman-e-Koh are hubs of gathering for such students, who, unmindful of their educational loss, are found enjoying themselves in leisurely gossips. Some even have the cheek to indulge in eve teasing.

/////from jang///////////////

Parents you need not worry about your children s behavior. The schools are full of jihadis, the uni hostels are occupied by them. Hence schjools and the so called colleges are not good places for the children to be. The teachers are not adequately qualified due to corruption, hence the streets are good places for education for the children. It can make them street wise so that they can escape the car jackers, mobile phone thiefs etc.

Increasingly schools are likely to be blown up by the taliban as in swat.

Take it from me, parents of pakistan, send teh children to teh streets, it can also save you on uniforms and otrher costs. Life is the best teacher, and street life is the best of the best.

ATLAF HUssain, can you hear me. Barbarians are at the gates.


It is time to have independent sindh to avoid taliban take over
////////////////////////////////////

Taliban may take over Karachi: Police report
1 Mar 2009, 0411 hrs IST, TIMES NEWS NETWORK & AGENCIES
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
KARACHI/ NEW DELHI: The Taliban's terror network is spreading across Pakistan so rapidly, it may be on course to strike the financial and
shipping hub of Karachi, according to a report prepared by the city's CID Special Branch.

The Taliban "could take the city hostage at any point", according to police in the report submitted to the Sindh government and provincial police chief.

The Taliban, which has alread y attacked Islamabad and Rawalpindi, has established hideouts in Karachi, the report said.

Re: # 278 Dost

Dost, you should read Ahmed Rashid's book, 'Descent into Chaos' before passing on opinion on Musharraf. According to Rashid, Musharraf is no different from other dictators in supporting the Taliban. Today's troubles in Pakistan can be laid at Musharraf's feet.

Re: # 302

bubba mian,

..... i think it is a bad idea to let the afghans (or pakis for that matter)grow pomegrantes - it will give them one more thing to fight over ...... i am sure you have heard the saying 'aik anar, so beemar' ......

....anyway, based on the events of this week i am throwing my support behind general kiyani ...... this democracy shamocracy does not work for moslems ......'yeh hamaray mizaj kay mutabiq nahin hai" ...... so let's stop wasting time and breaking trafiic signals and get down to the business of building a police state that suits our temperament..............

hang zardari! hang nawaz sharif! hang the droopy eyed judge and tahmed!

hosni mubarak zindabad!
king mohammad VI zindabad!
omar ibn khattab zindabad!
king abdullah zindabad!
sheikh khalifa bin zayed zindabad!

president kiyani zindabad!

"Phoooooohh (all over the body) ameen. "

Tahir mian,

Yeh Islami jhaad phhonk Pakistan par bhi kar do.

If your Jhaad-Phook of "Allahu.." or "Bismillah' or some quranic chant can change the fortunes of Pakistan then please do that immediately........

Re: # 301 Posted by hamidm2 on February 28, 2009 6:05:44 am

hamid mian,

You may not realize this now, but the west is trying hard to promote the afghans to start growing more pomegranates than opium.

karina kapoor's diet,

.... right after broadcasting the squeals of paki mna's beating the crap out of each other, geo news reported that karina kapoor has milk or pomegrante juice for breakfast instead of tea or coffee ...... i don't know why, but that makes me sooo happy ..........

tahmed mian,

.... you will be glad to know that today members of parliament beat up each other and there was pandemonium in the house ......they were squealing like stuck pigs! ...... i also saw frenzied crowds beating up on all those nice new traffic lights in islamabad and burnig tires on the spanking new expressways ...... i have always maintained that democracy is a nice concept, but as amir-ul-momeneen fazlullah has said it is incompatible with the koran and sunnah ........ i think we should burn down the parliament house and put an end to this charade once and for all ...... it is time to set up a open tent where, like mo of mecca (pbuhahc) and the abominable four, we can conduct the business of our islamic state ........... takbeer!


maulana fazlullah zindabad !

Goldfinger #287 good point. although to date even the scoundrel zardari is no match for maha-scoundrel musharraf.

Re: # 269
Ana auntie,
"I was commenting on a verse taken out of its context just as many of us take things out of context."

There is nothing out-of-context in that Qur'anic verse I quoted. Try reading the entire Book if you can. And the Arabic Bible has the word Allah all over it!

Why don't they release the translations of the Qumran Scrolls found around the Dead Sea in 1947? BECAUSE, then the truth will set them free!

What is painful (e.g. I for ChowQ) is always more convenient for grown uncles (and aunties) to avoid.

Peace (as John said).

Re: # 261
Asadi: "medical doctors are pathetically ignorant outside of a few surgical procedures or prescribing a few prescriptions for common ailments"

Long live natural medicine! May God keep one away from the men in white coats and hospitals as far as possible.

Phoooooohh (all over the body) ameen.

Re: # 259
Asadi sahib,

As-salaamu alaikom (don't foregt to wish me back with a better greeting).

Thanks for offering farm-fresh advice. While ChowQ's server records everything, God's super-computer does it even better; it logs what's in one's heart, mind, and the soul!

Muslims (if they're Muslims at all) need to stand by one another, much in the same way as they do in the 'salah' or in battle formation; if one falls, the other comes to his aid. No excuses there.

I'm about one million light years away from being a mullah with an 'oonchi shalwar'.

What is your favourite apparel; not the 'jubbah' I hope!

Regards.

Re: # 255
Ana auntie,

And which 'Pakistani who thinks he is the "all-knowing' is THAT?

We shall soon see who is in chains....

:/

Re: # 238
"Hindu violence, although inexcusable is a more recent phenomenon and 9 times out of 10 retaliatory."

Let me post something about the Indus-ian extermination of Buddhists, but later.

Amreeka, you have heard me.

Long before the predators were attacking the jihadis, in fact on 12 July 2007, on chowk I posted this. Thanks the US military for following up on my post.

//////////////////////// see interacts on " prevnting more lal masjids"


Final solution

The learned Pervez Hoodboy also has come to the same conclusion as me.

``First, those who publicly preach hatred in mosques and call for violence against the citizens of Pakistan should be denied the opportunity to do so. The government should announce that any citizen who hears such sermons should record them, and lodge a charge in the nearest designated complaint office. The guilty should be dealt with severely under the law``

///////////////////

For a long time I have proposed unmanned aerial vehicles, at the utterance of word jihad, it will deliver shahdad to that person at the very place, through a missile.

Pakis, can you hear me

/////from dawn of today////////// more relevant for those who think that paki govt through isis is not involved in terror training
///////////////

lso on Thursday, the US media quoted ISI Chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha as telling the White House and the State Department that his agency had purged itself of ‘rogue elements.’

The reports also quoted US officials as saying that they believed that some elements within the ISI were still helping the militants.

‘The degree of that continuing relationship (between the ISI and the militants) is one of the things that need to be discussed openly and candidly between two friends, America and Pakistan,’ said Ambassador Holbrooke.

Pak's Col Sadatullah admits he works for SCO
28 Feb 2009, 0342 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Colonel R Sadatullah, who has been chargesheeted for arranging telephonic conversations between the Mumbai attackers and their Lashkar
bosses, has admitted that he works for Pakistan's Special Communication Organisation (SCO). ( Watch )

/////////////////

yet another mumbai victim. The poor man will lose his job, and establishes that without isi support, this could not have been done.

It is isi who trained the terrorists.

lay off masadi .... you b4$turds ....

mercy mercy ....

Re: # 277

Masadi:

"...Don't forget that the purpose of your creation is : "to see which one of you is best in deed"..."

Who told you of the "purpose of your creation"? Or your proof positive evidence of God includes he talking to you to inform humanity that "the purpose of your creation is: "to see which one of you ie best in deed"..."

May I dare say that your God must be very sadistic to set this purpose "to see which one of you is best in deed." No wonder you launch insults so fast, I presume your God will see this as "the best in deed."

Are you sure you were educated at the buckle of bible belt college. Elsewhere you mentioned to BSM "top U.S. colleges".

Is your buckle of the bible best college included in this list of "top U.S. college"?

nemesis#285:

I claim no credit for that statement. It is masadi saheb's statement that I reproduced.

Re: # 253

hamidm:

"p.s. yesterday a couple of leading business folks from pakistan told me that the musharraf years were the best eight years in paki history ..."

Regarding this I was reminded of a little story someone once told me. There once lived a very bad man in a village. He was so evil that he would even dig out newly buried corpses to steal the white burial shroud of the dead. At long last when this evil man's time of dying came near he was very heart broken. His son asked him as to what was he so upset about? The man said: "Son, because when I die, people will remember me very badly...they will always remember me as the one who would not even spare dead bodies by even stealing the white muslin shroud that they were wrapped in!"
The son said: "Father don't you even worry about such things in your last time. I am your son and I will earn a name even more notorious than yours...I will make people say that you were a good man!" The father died soon. The son started on the criminal path of his father. He soon started digging out newly buried dead, and after stealing the white muslin cloth from the bodies, would leave them out in the open after sticking a bamboo in the rear of every denuded dead body. Soon people started saying that the father was not so bad after all, but the son is really wicked...

BSM:

What Masadi is at times garbled and always so scattered. Often people can wonder if there is a better speciman for scatter brain.

Religion and Science are two ends of the spectrum of human thought.

Religion relies on beliefs that cannot be questioned any further. Practically nothing that forms the basis of a belief system can be challenged.

Science on the other end relies on relentless reasoning, questioning, probity and challenging. Everything can be challenged.

An individual needs a belief system to fall back on when there is no other answer (e.g. why do I have Cancer). Science brings logical order and discipline to enhance knowledge.

Science should be able to push the boundary conditions of a belief system (not just its own), if there is evidence that change is better. However, religious fundamentalist with no ability to differentiate basis of faith and reasoning. They had for too long subjugated Science to fundamentalists beliefs. Religious nuts like Masadi Mian still think this should be the way, and hence they come up with "Sociology of Cosmology" etc. etc.

#277 Posted by dost_mittar,

Well said mitter pyare ji,

Instead of using the religion as a tool for cleansing this world, we should pick up only those things which would help clean your inner self. If I am a hindu, it is not necessary that I should follow only hindu scriptures and so on. Jesus gave the message of 'love thy neighbour like thyself'. This message has been given in the hindu scripture like 'vasudeva kutumbakam' (whole universe is one family) There my be such a message in all the scriptures, if properly understood. Universal brotherhood, introspection, and the policy of live and let live,in my opinion is the only way to make this earth a better place to live on.

Masadi sahib:

Is there a Cosmology of Sociology also?

Will you care to share your proof positive of God with others on Chowk to enlighten the masses?

#253 Posted by hamidm2 on February 27, 2009 5:58:16 am


yesterday a couple of leading business folks from pakistan told me that the musharraf years were the best eight years in paki history


considering the fact that there is no paki business that has a real international presence, that's not saying much....

Re: # 280

Masadi supports Islamic GUT-s theory.........I believe I have seen some time back on his web site....correct me if I am mistaken.

Re: # 279

LOL!!

I clearly find this supporting Zaid Hamid's thesis that the TASEER of Paki Awaam is NOT suited to western liberal democracy and it only requires "benevolent dictator" , a father figure (as I say - a clone of Mohammad!!)

Allahu!!!

#258

Masadi,

"If you don't know anything about sociology or cosmology it will seem weird to you"...

You need to get off that fence of hi-fi but only 'my intellectualism.

I can bet there is NO such thing as Sociology of Cosmology. If you prove it to me, in a very decent manner, I will dispose of my M.Phil thesis.


"it is a valid area of inquiry that you without reading the article"

You writings that I read are nothing but jagonized pieces of trash. I looked for refenreces, there were none. Now send me those pieces with PROPER refrences. And mind you, I don't want you to give me the references of your 'chachhoo, mammo, tayyaa'...

"In fact not only is it valid a professional journal associated with the top schools in the US showed interest"

Any accredited university, anywhere in the world, if it has SHOWED interest let me know which 'professional academic journal is that. I am curious to know if there exists anyone in this goddamned world. who takes you seriously.

"...were I to develop it further and that is the honest to God truth."

Let me know Masadi. I am very serious. I really what to know if you have intercepted Sagan with Mills. Tell me where it is. I will goddamned read it. Then we will see who's read sociology.

-----------
Masadi,

"Thinking is not the forte of top down spoon fed, big Western name throwing education of bureaucrats ..."

Oh really! As if you have set up a factory of your own in backyard that churns out ideas at will, huh?

Get a life, you bonehead.

"Another horrifying example of those institutions, a moral emergency in and by himself, is Mr. Pervez Hoodbhoy."

You are jealous and hateful of Hoodbhoy, because he waged a war against you, along with late Dr. Eqbal Ahmed. I am sure you belong to that stupid cult, who tried to intruduce Islamic Science in this country. Those champoo Islamic Scientist believed they could mess up with the tradition of Sceince by making (futile) attempts to prove gravitation by Quran.

Get a life, you champoo!

P.S: Answer me like a decent fellow, or I won't respond. And send me the details of the "prfessional journal" you claimed about. Let me see what kind of fluid runs in your brain veins.

over n out.

-E

hamidm:

"p.s. yesterday a couple of leading business folks from pakistan told me that the musharraf years were the best eight years in paki history ... talking about load shedding one guy said, "if they pay their bills I can turn on the electricity within twenty four hours" ...... he sounded like someone from detroit edison!"

Please read my caveat a year ago; when everyone was celebrating the victory of democracy in Pakistan, I suggested that we should wait for a couple of years before we make a judgement. Looks like I should have said only one year.

I fully agree that Musharraf was the best leader you had, esp. for those who want a moderate Pakistan.

hamidm:

"p.s. yesterday a couple of leading business folks from pakistan told me that the musharraf years were the best eight years in paki history ... talking about load shedding one guy said, "if they pay their bills I can turn on the electricity within twenty four hours" ...... he sounded like someone from detroit edison!"

Please read my caveat a year ago; when everyone was celebrating the victory of democracy in Pakistan, I suggested that we should wait for a couple of years before we make a judgement. Looks like I should have said only one year.

I fully agree that Musharraf was the best leader you had, esp. for those who want a moderate Pakistan.

masadi:

"Religion is not a full way of life, the mullah's religion is, the purpose of the Quran is to help you self realize and then discover God, for that it offers a few rules pretty rudimentary ones to guide you along. Don't forget that the purpose of your creation is : "to see which one of you is best in deed" The "deeds" are not pre prescribed otherwise there would be no "best" involved in the equation."

I could swear that this was written by your nemesis, tahmed saheb.

#249 nkg "beduinoid, who cooks up story to fcuk 6 year old girl is your prophet...and you trying to potray ideal musla as decent human being!!!"

Neither MO the paedophile or Ram the contract killer are my prophets. I don't know any 'prophets' - not in past nor in present.

They were all individuals, mass leaders with brilliant ideas and outright beastly impulses. Take what you like, your choice
Regards

The RUMOR MILL in Islamabad

HOT ITEMS

1) Yousaf Raza Gillani has fallen out with Zardari and has a secret understanding with the Sharif brothers.

2) March 10th is when Gillani is to be ousted as PM.

3) A new PM is being imported from the US... Shortkut Aziz the Second...

4) General Kiyani is getting a red carpet welcome in Washington, so politicians up and down Constitution Avenue are shitting bricks. The 111 Brigade may be ironing it's uniforms and cleaning it's rusted guns.

5) Violence is planned for The Long Drive of March 16th...

6) After their victory in Swat, the Taliban have their eyes set on Islamabad.

...SR

may God damn his soul.....PH that is

TNITC masadi

Thinking is not the forte of top down spoon fed, big Western name throwing education of bureaucrats at those educational institutions who go on big foreign trips while the libraries have 1925 editions of books. Another horrifying example of those institutions, a moral emergency in and by himself, is Mr. Pervez Hoodbhoy.

TNITC masadi

#269 Ana, you're most welcome, getting an education cannot harm anyone as long as you stay away from the peon manufacturing factories that describe Pakistani educational institutions. There product BS is available for all as a horrifying, moral panic creating example.

TNITC masadi

Re #270

Last time I raised the issue of Quran forbidding pork, we all had a good laugh at tahmed’s expense …

tahmed Sahib tried to by funny … and blamed it all on some egyptian monk whose verdict somehow found its way into Quran. No one laughed.

Then tahmed Sahib argued that “shunning pork� is as insignificant as the issue of “squatting on the toilet seat�. I pointed out that Quran says nothing about squatting on toilet seat, but clearly forbids pork. Why??

At that point, tahmed sahib claimed that his personal diet is no one’s business …

+++

I think tahmed shuns pork because an arab 1400 years ago asked believers to do so. It has nothing to do with the “core message of Islam�.

… there’s nothing wrong with obeying an arab … but it just illustrates tahmed can quickly discard “common sense� and seek guidance from mere mortals, even those who lived in caves 1400 years ago …

Re: # 268 to Tahmed

OK, I'll ask, 'Tahmed, why don't you eat pork?'

masadi: thank you for your sage advice. BTW I was commenting on a verse taken out of its context just as many of us take things out of context. I've done that with verses of the Bible too, if you want to comment any further on my lack of education!

you have a great day too!!! :)

… and this whole thing about “core message of Islam� is confusing as ever. Just ask tahmed why he wouldn’t eat pork … and he’ll flip out before giving a straight answer …

tahmed sahib lives his life by parts of a book written by a lonely arab 1400 years ago … and then he accuses others of looking up to pirs and prophets … go figure!

I don’t think tahmed sahib is intelligent enough to appreciate the irony …

hamid writes "why the heck are we discussing mohammadanism,"

It is not mohammadanism you miserable moron. It is Islam what the Quran talks about and its variant mainstreamed distortion is Mullahism.

Ana writes to Tahir "wow, there's quite a bit of hostility to Jews there in that verse."

No Ana there is no hostility to Jews, it is a falsifiable proposition that is subject to empirical verification, and is quite true. On the other hand there is a lot of hostility in you towards the Quran (as is the case with many Pakistani "evangelical" Christians)when you see hostility in a statement of fact.

Have a nice day and get some education,

TNITC masadi

hamidm #253 Maulana Masadiullah will have your neck for that, you pothwari rogue!!

#261 Masadi MD: Dr. Cheema is a mere physician. He is a mere child playing doctor, doctor with the nurses. You on the other hand are the inventor of the Masadi Heart Valve Machine, and the original writer of the Book of Life that God then plagiarized!!

pew research #252: yup!
pew research #251: yo! you got it.

akcheema, your posts prove to us that medical doctors are pathetically ignorant outside of a few surgical procedures or prescribing a few prescriptions for common ailments....

TNITC masadi

cheema sahib (#180),

It is really simple … the universal deity dispatched his favorite winged angel, who whispered it to an arab in a cave, some 1400 years ago.

… what part of this you have trouble accepting? It is all common sense … no, really …

Tahir sahib, I don't have to jump to Arjun's postings to "prove" my Islam, and this very thing shows that your development is tending towards being stunted, but it has not yet. Religion is not a full way of life, the mullah's religion is, the purpose of the Quran is to help you self realize and then discover God, for that it offers a few rules pretty rudimentary ones to guide you along. Don't forget that the purpose of your creation is : "to see which one of you is best in deed" The "deeds" are not pre prescribed otherwise there would be no "best" involved in the equation.

Have a nice day and move past the original "stunned" phase or you'll remake yourself into a mullah.

TNITC masadi

BS writes ""Towards a sociology of cosmology".... can only be an idiot with an illusion of his 'ever-forming' ideas.

What on Earth that can be, anyway? Your Sociology of Cosmology! Kisi se kehna bhi mat! Log hassein gey champoo."

You miserable moron, let me take back my apology. If you don't know anything about sociology or cosmology it will seem weird to you but the fact is that it is a valid area of inquiry that you without reading the article are trying to criticize like a damn illiterate out of one of those peon creating factories of Pakistan. In fact not only is it valid a professional journal associated with the top schools in the US showed interest in publishing it were I to develop it further, and that is the honest to God truth.

Now go F yourself,

TNITC masadi

#223 Posted by tahir

"Christians are considered the closest to Muslims."

This explains all!!

No wonder then that Goldfinger picks up cowdung and urine from christian sites.

Also, it appears to be another christian site from where arjun picked up the material.

Mitter pyare ji,

"As they say in Hinglish, what goes of your fathers if they do not protest."

But they have enough time to organize primary school going children (if at all) to protest against Israel violence against palestine. Do you mean to say they have time only for things for which nothing goes of their father?

hamid mian:

I wasn't "arguing" with a Hindu this morning, I was arguing with a Pakistani who thinks he is the "all-knowing." :)

You would have liked the George Carlin tribute that was on a few weeks ago.

The basic premise of this article - Hindians 'advising' Pakistan - is wrong. The only concern Hindians should have is about protecting themselves actively, and utilizing any trade opportunities that may arise without compromising their own security. Beyond that, all this 'advising' is and sounds both unnecessary and unhelpful to anyone.

fellow pakis,

.......... why the heck are we discussing mohammadanism, judaism and christianity with a bunch of horrible hindoos who think that a monkey can walk across water carrying a fat woman on his back ? ...... it is hard enough believing that a virgin's son can walk on water and a bedouin can ride a horse to meet god in heaven ........

....... we have more important things to talk about ..... what do you think is going to happen to the pehalwan brothers of gowalmandi ?......... i think zardari should show some brass and hang those two fat fools for sedition and revolt ..... he should also hang the droopy-eyed judge and all his supporters, including tahmed, for being trouble makers ..... maybe then fazlullah, baitullah, tahirullah, urstrulyullah and masadiullah will come out of their caves, lay down their guns and take a shower ............


president musharraf zindabad!
prime minister sheikh rashid zindabad!

p.s. yesterday a couple of leading business folks from pakistan told me that the musharraf years were the best eight years in paki history ... talking about load shedding one guy said, "if they pay their bills I can turn on the electricity within twenty four hours" ...... he sounded like someone from detroit edison!

Re: # 190 Tahmed32

Also, what about other Shias - they also hold contemporary spiritual leaders in great reverence? Are they Muslims?

Re: # 190 Tahmed32

So, by this yardstick you don't think that Ismailis who revere the Agha Khan are Muslims, right?

Re: # 226
dm...
judaism is as stupid as christianity, may be little less and much less harmful than islam...the point is, jews (like indians) do not have the concept of non believers, jihad etc. etc...furthermore, most of the jews are pragmatic....
that makes much difference between muslas and jews...most of the muslas are funny creature, which resembles ( not physical appearence) more like 7th century arab beduins and most of the jews are reasonable human of modern age....

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Re: # 241; tahir

[[See the video series (What world famous men said about the J...)!]]

must you be so stupid tahir ... the very same 'famous' people say a lot of things about islam and muslims too ... do you also believe those bits to be equally true too??

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tahir:

I'm afraid you're the one bound up in chains. Not me.

Re: # 243
भाड़ में जाओ

Re: # 240
"seems like your paki buddy can dish out "behead those who insult islam" thing but can't take it... "

I'll let Kali-mata take care of your diseased head while you sleep.

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Re: # 237
Slowly but steadily Ana you will learn the truth and THEN it will set you free.

Re: # 235
DM,
"jews never waged any crusades either"

See the video series (What world famous men said about the J...)!

Craftily they've turned Christians against Muslims! Who owns the mass media and the world of finance?

As an exercise in enlightement, look very hard at the 'o' in ChowQ's logo; you will recognize the stamp.

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Re: # 234
Hey its you.

But you look like (I can't even pronounce it). And I notice that you converted and re-named yourself, and are reading the Book!

But that's not the way, sit down, show greater respect just like you previously did to Gita or the Bible.

One mistake, not even a convert can write over the Book!

Go back and say the 'shahadah' again.

#229 by tahir

And what happened in Gujrat, to Babri mosque and what not?

And that's where history comes in. I knew you would come up with this argument.

If you look at the history of Hindu-Muslim relations, Hindus have always been at the receiving end of Muslim violence, so why should history be ignored? Can you simply wish it away? Hindu violence, although inexcusable is a more recent phenomenon and 9 times out of 10 retaliatory.

wow, there's quite a bit of hostility to Jews there in that verse.

And there were many Jews who did ascribe divinity to God.

arjun:

What purpose do you achieve by such incendiary acts? Whether you are a Christian or a Hindu or an atheist, the demands of decency are the same, no?

tahir:

Correct me if I am wrong but the jewish hostility to Muslims is somewhat recent. Yes, I have met jews who think that the Prophet stole their religion but in terms of strict monotheism, customs, laws and practices, I think that jews are closer to Muslims than to Christians. And remember, jews never waged any crusades either.

Even in future, I think that the rivalry will be between Muslims and Christians because both believe that the deliverance of the humankind is in all embracing Christianity or Islam one day. Jews have no such ambition.

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cheemaji:

I was referring to theology. In that respect, mirzaees are closer to Islam and indeed claim to be true muslims than any other group. But unlike Muslims, Jews are not threatened by Islam as they are not interested in expanding dar-ul-yahood, except in Palestine and even there I am not sure if they would welcome Palestinians to embrace Judaism.

Re: # 226
"I thought that Judaism was the closest to Islam."

No DM, you read it wrong!

Thou wilt surely find that, of all people, the most hostile to those who believe [in this divine writ] are the Jews as well as those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught beside God; and thou wilt surely find that, of all people, they who say, "Behold, we are Christians," come closest to feeling affection for those who believe [in this divine writ]: this is so because there are priests and monks among them, and because these are not given to arrogance. --Al-Qur'an 5:82

Re: # 225
Arjun was abandoned by his parents and never had the fortune of receiving decent education!

Re: # 226
"I thought that Judaism was the closest to Islam."

No DM, you read it wrong!

Thou wilt surely find that, of all people, the most hostile to those who believe [in this divine writ] are the Jews as well as those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught beside God; and thou wilt surely find that, of all people, they who say, "Behold, we are Christians," come closest to feeling affection for those who believe [in this divine writ]: this is so because there are priests and monks among them, and because these are not given to arrogance. --Al-Qur'an 5:82

Re: # 224
"Don't relegate what happened in Mumbai to history; the incident is recent and still fresh in everyone's memories."

And what happened in Gujrat, to Babri mosque and what not?

Babri masjid was destroyed by Hindu nationalists, 150,000 strong, during a planned ceremony on December 6, 1992 despite a commitment to the Indian Supreme Court that the mosque would not be harmed.

And your nationalists BELIEVED that Babur's commander-in-chief Mir Baki destroyed an existing temple at the site, which you BELIEVE was the temple built to commemorate the birthplace of Rama.

Not everything that you BELIEVE is true.

Dash,

not many in India cares who rules Pakistan...its the Chowkies' self imposed duty to question whats in&out of both the countries...

Re: # 226; dost

just like Islam (mainstream) is not 'close' to mirzaism (aka qadianiyat), Judaism is not 'close' to Islam per se ... however, admittedly, the basic theology and many practices are the same

christianity, on the other hand, having done its own 'mirzayet' on Judaism, becomes 'closer' to Islam than Judaism itself ... tricky but makes sense if one thinks about it

tahir#23:

I thought that Judaism was the closest to Islam.

harish:

I thought arjun said he's an atheist, and only one of his parents is Christian.

#223 by tahir

The issue is something else, don't drag 1,000 years of history into it.

Don't relegate what happened in Mumbai to history; the incident is recent and still fresh in everyone's memories.

Re: # 219
HH,
The issue is something else, don't drag 1,000 years of history into it.

"BTW, Arjun is a Christian."

That's even more sinful because from amongst the people of the Book, Christians are considered the closest to Muslims.

May the church forgive the poor wretch, I won't unless he apologizes like a man, or else...

chowk staff:

Thank you very much for trying to make this placed a civilised chowk. But please do try to make a distinction between serious malicious insults and non-serious mocking intended to bring some mirth to this forum.

Rakesh and other Bharat-vasiyo:

It is alright for you to observe that no Pakistanis are protesting the taleban on the streets of Karachi and Lahore but it is none of your business to criticise them for not doing so. As they say in Hinglish, what goes of your fathers if they do not protest. And let me assure you, it would make no difference to India whether Pakistan is ruled by the taleban or PPP, they all consider India as their enemy whether it is "Urstrulies" or "hamidms", at least as long as you don't give up Kashmir.

it is quite easy ... according to the silly book itself, allah mian has taken the responsibility to uphold its honour ... ask him to step in and not blame 'mere mortals' for what they think of it

then again ... he can't, can he?? since he is 'figment' himself

#218 by tahir

Because no Muslim here has had the bad sense of showing Gita or other Indu scriptures placed in a flush.

Between killing others for being non-Muslim and doing what Arjun did, it is easy to see which one is more harmless; although choosing between the two is like choosing between bad and worse, none of which is appealing.

BTW, Arjun is a Christian.

Re: # 217
"Why Arjun's putting the book has created such a storm?"

Because no Muslim here has had the bad sense of showing Gita or other Indu scriptures placed in a flush. Can't you see that?

There's a long tradition of questioning and probing in Islam. That's why we have many sects and 'each rejoicing in its own tenets' as the Qur'an puts it.

We cannot question God, but He will surely question us!

Any more questions?

Why Arjun's putting the book has created such a storm. I thought Kalima precisely says that there is nothing... nothing sacred, that can not be questioned between God and man.

How come everything including plain paper of Quran becomes so sanctified that Muslim intellectuals forget the basic tenet? Sometimes it looks Hindus who do not hesitate questioning their Gods and criticizing their avatars ( messangers) such as Ram, Krishna are more resolute followers of Islam.

Re: # 215

jayp,

if such a period ever comes to pass that you say would be golden for Pakistan...you can rest assured that india would be in for mighty interesting times too...so much so that the smug smirk from faces of the likes of you could vanish in a hurry...and as for the downsizing remember there are much more different nationalities in india than in pakistan...historically its never been one huge entity but always sundry different little states...only the northern conquerors managed to subjugate huge land masses under them (like Alauddn Khilji etc).

tahir,

cry for pakiland...cry taliban to save the country..

The golden era of pakistan will be after talibanisation. Once taliban comes to power, it will be de-nuked and resized.

Then will be the golden age for the what is know as pakistanis today.

pray for that tahir.

Zardari sacks special public prosecutor in Mumbai attack case
27 Feb 2009, 1422 hrs IST, PTI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari on Friday fired the special public prosecutor in the Mumbai attacks case, more than a week after
the senior lawyer sparked a controversy claiming that Islamabad had formally requested India to hand over Ajmal Amir Kasab.

Apart from his sacking as the special public prosecutor, Sardar Mohammad Ghazi was removed from the post of deputy attorney general by Zardari, according to an official notification quoted by Dawn News channel.

////yet another mumbai victim...fired for telling the truth......

Kiyani , can you hear me.

One should not forget that the US wanted zardari to align with PML- q, the mushy party. But PPP did not listen to the masters. Now is the time for zardari to follow the master and align with mushy.

That will make sure that the army will not topple zardari.

Take it from me pakis, mushy is going to be back.

Re: # 198
"I don't blame Tahir either, the book is stunning but you should move past the stun part and reason or you'll remain stunted...that is my advice to Tahir sahib...."

Asadi sahib, I don't take untrue advice kindly, in fact, I react in my own style. Read on please:

What exactly makes you think I'm stunted and have stopped growing? And move on to what? Do you know what else I do? No, you don't. All THIS is to serve those who will take heed, it makes me understand society's sickness better, I research things well, read and write, AND do all other routine things in life too.

Religion is a way of life, and a complete one too; it doesn't bring me headaches. Every bit of nonsense I hear and see here makes my own understanding better. If someone here wishes to benefit from it, good for him/her.

Repeatedly delivering the true message was the WAY (sunnah) of the Prophets, and the evil ones never liked their advice. That you too quote the Quran is commendable, but you did not speak up against Arjun who placed the Book in a flush. Many here chose to stay silent.

Now what more advice do you have for me?

Re: # 182
"BS sahib sorry about the "moron" part.."

I can't believe it Asadi sahib! I'm sure your dog wrote that apology; the animal probably did it out of sympathy for a worse animal!

:)
:)

Re: # 180
"where does Mo of Mecca and his silly arabic edition of the gobbledigook fit in into one's life??"

Vay Cheemaya, taNoN aye kisay di ayee! Tera kakh na raway!

masadi ... there is no way you can "reason" and have that the grounds for your insistence upon the Koran/Allah/Islam ... no one can

to believe in an external deity, one HAS to rely on blind faith ... at least to get the ball rolling ... then 'reason' can be used to 'reaffirm' but NEVER as the starting point in these matters

organised religion, God/Allah etc have had their day ... the writing is on the wall for your 'boy' my friend ... and just empty rhetoric is not going to cut it I am afraid

...the Koran is very much a self-destructing prophecy ... as we observe through history, and through its 'revival' in the muslim world now ... this is your LAST bastion ... the game's up!

Re: # 109
From tahmed to candle

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BSM reflects: "no wonder...duniya main barey barey champoo parey hain yaar! Sad-Sad situation hai ye tu!" :(
-E

Anil,

Did you read that?

I am shell shocked!

Is Masadi struggling to be a poet or something?

It's like: "Towards a Microbiology of Metaphysics".

"Towards a Sociology of Cosmology".... C`mon yaar.. koi itna champoo bhi ho sakta hai, I can't believe this! :(

P.S: Maybe, my reaction looks exaggerated, but I am really shocked to see Masadi who claims to have studied Sociology coins a title talk that...poor Masadi!
-E

Masadi sahib:

Was your having a proof positive evidence of God, your reason?

Will you care to share?

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#197 Posted by masadi on February 26, 2009 5:19:43 pm


Faith never made me accept the Quran, reason did.


you accepted mo's version arabian nights because of reason? damn...you're even more stupid than I thought...even lulu.com's going to reject you one of these days...

#197

Masadi,

from here on I DECLARE that I will never take you as a serious thinking being.

I mean somebody who writes...

"Towards a sociology of cosmology".... can only be an idiot with an illusion of his 'ever-forming' ideas.

What on Earth that can be, anyway? Your Sociology of Cosmology! Kisi se kehna bhi mat! Log hassein gey champoo.

Sociology of Cosmology. Are you out of your mind, Masadi?

On a very serious note, I doubt your credentials. I swear I really suspect if you have got your M.A. right.

For now I feel compelled to TEACH you here that Reason and Faith can never and I mean NEVER put together to understand anything, let alone Quran. This is your first and last lesson for today.

Get a life you loser, and most of all a GODDAMNED education!

P.S: Champoo, before you were even born Pervez has made his best to do so. Read his works. He was an utter failure though. Now I understand what kind of CRAP they (the foreign schools) send back here.

chc chc. I feel really sorry for you yaaar! :(
-E

Tahmed writes "and, i may further add, by this definition most "religious types" in pakistan are in fact bloody kafirs."

There are two types of Kafirs, ones whose kufr has been garbed in Islamic cloth so that they think they are Muslims but reject every statement of the Quran by their acts and beliefs, and the others like your goodself who worship their desire and those they think provide that desire, in your case your worship of the West and the white man. Sandwiched in between this clash of the Kafiroon, the real Muslims the ones for community and equality get crushed or lumped with the opposing camps by the morons on either side of the Kafir divide.

Have a nice day.

TNITC masadi

Tahmed sahib stop making excuses for your inadequacies. The only typo error in that post was "informs its reads " which should have been "informs its readers".

Doing the "right" thing does not mean worshiping the white man, that is "right" only to certain demented folk living in a particular time/place/with a particular historical context

get an education,

TNITC masadi

I don't blame Tahir either, the book is stunning but you should move past the stun part and reason or you'll remain stunted...that is my advice to Tahir sahib....

TNITC masadi

BS sahib, it is not faith. In fact I wrote an article on it called "Towards a sociology of cosmology" which chowk staff censored. Faith never made me accept the Quran, reason did.

Have a nice day and take it easy,

TNITC masadi

Re: # 191

I second your opinion, Qibla. That's exactly why I call Tahir a Kafir :D.
Do you agree with me on this point?

---------

And thank you for guiding me as not to believe everything I read on Chowk.
Btw, did I?
-E

Re: # 185

Masadi,

"The Quran transcends time, place and social structure, therefore "doing" it will always involve.."

On one hand you claim to be an 'authentic' social scientist, on the other you make presumptous statements like this one. What's wrong with you, man?

Take a side. Either call yourself a Maulana and start preaching, or a sociologist and work in the disciple's parameters. Can't have both, I guess. No matter what jargon you use to prove a "revealed" text's sanctity, it's your faith which puts such explainations/statements in your mouth.

ADMIT IT!
And move on!
-E

Re: # 182

Masadi sahib,

Apology accepted.
-E

mr masadi: that flimsy post is so bad i am not going to respond to it. instead, i am going to ask you to go back and re-write it so it actually makes some sense. i know you can do it.

Ahmad sahib, I understand that you are sociologically challenged but pray tell me how you'd interpret "right" without situating it in a structure and culture? Or better still learn from the Quran that informs its reads that the worst among the misguided are those that do the worst things but think that they are rightly guided.

Have a nice day and get a goddamned education,

TNITC masadi

and, i may further add, by this definition most "religious types" in pakistan are in fact bloody kafirs.

#189 i may add, doctor sahib, that i consider not just ahmedis to be non-muslims, but also anyone else who else ignores the core message of islam (i.e. individual responsibility to God to differentiate between right and wrong and to do the right thing). Thus, anyone who looks towards any kind of a "religious man" (pir, fakir, maulana, syed, khalifa) for guidance is violating this basic message.

#187 well put doctor sahib. you have exceeded my highest expectations!!

Mr. Masadi #185 I think I will wear sun glasses next time I read your post, in order to avoid injury from the dazzling brilliance of what you write!!

Re: # 179: BSM

au contraire, tahmed sahib doesn't consider ahmadis to be muslims (from a theological perspective)

however he doesn't advocate doing anything actively about the 'problem' since that would amount to communalism ... which is against the 'common sense' doctrine he practices (and preaches)

Anil....get off my case....(this will be my response to the jamadar roaming these streets looking for my posts).

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

tahmed and akc, both of you are being moronic. 1) Common sense is not "common" other than to a particular time, place and social structure 2) The Quran transcends time, place and social structure, therefore "doing" it will always involve struggle on the part of the believers and few will "do" it.

Have a nice day, and both of you, get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

#179 bsm: dont believe everything you read on chowk, barkhudar.

#180 cheema sahib: your hatred for an individual and for a book is what defies common sense.

BS sahib sorry about the "moron" part, you have responded decently (unlike your previous posts) and so an apology was called for.

Have a nice day,
TNITC masadi

Re: # 153

Please prefer to posts 153 and 170. Proves once again that Pakis cannot be trusted to stay true to their word. Tsk Tsk.

Hamidm2 at least you could have set a better example and carried out your threat.....

tahmed sahib [[how about living ones life according to the dictates of one's common sense??]]

sir, we have been here before ... if common sense was the only denominator, where does Mo of Mecca and his silly arabic edition of the gobbledigook fit in into one's life??

.... you can't continue to have your cake and eat it! ... sorry

Tahmed Qibla,

Elsewhere I have read that you belong to the Lahori group of Mirzais.

Is this true?
-E

hamidm: there is no way sheikh rashid could be a descendant of chanakya: chanakya never lost his deposit the way sheikh rashid did.

As for the latest developments in Lahore - you dont need to ask my views. You know where I am on the question of the rule of law and the restoration of the Chief Justice (and now the Panjab Government!). And I know where you are on this - sitting on the fence!!

Re: # 175

No thank you. Don't try to impress us with your gibberish stuff!
Aqq thoo!
-E

#174

Sorry Masadi. I stand corrected. Paul was on my mind, but mistakenly said John.

Thank you.
-E

Re: # 174
Asadi sahib,

And then it turned into Paulian Christianity!

I will post something soon on Christianity and Bible.

Regards.

BS writes "if John hadn't articulated the gospels for Catholicism"

Here is why I think this half baked "scholar" is a moron, like most intellectuals coming out of the colonial peon making factories they call universities in Pakistan. John did not articulate his gospel for the Catholics, there were no Catholics when John penned his gospel, and if political success of Christianity is to be gauged it is better attributed to Paul under whose watchful eye a new system developed that colored the gospels.

Get an education moron.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 171

tahmed mian,

..... forget about this hindoo mumbo jumbo ad tell me what you think about the latest developments in lahore ...... sheikh rashid had predicted this a year ago - he was off only by a month or so but not by much ....... he is a wise man ...... i wouldn't be suprised if sheikh sahib is the direct descendent of this chankiya or whatever his name is .........

sheikh rashid bin chankiya zindabad!

Re: # 170

hamid uncle,

Chankiya was the only Hindu scholar who was smarter than any Ram-Bheem-Harri.

If you wanna find out how he might have looked like, google a picture of Rasputin. Only he matches Chankiya in looks, wit, and genius, that's my opinion.

on Budhha, I agree. The fat one I believe depicts his true self. I fancy the meditating Buddha as well, but don't believe if he ever stayed in that position so long.

On an evil note, Tahir-Kafir has posted a picture of Muhammad's look alike on the main page.

Check that out!

P.S: Am sorry if it hurts anybody. Tahir-Kafir is compelling me to sound so idiotic. However I am NOT sorry if it pisses Kafir off.
-E

hamidm: chanakya was the peter drucker of rawalpindi. he was no dirty, naked sadhu getting his jollies exposing himself.

Re: # 166

bitter mian,

... who the heck is chankiya and why are we comparing him to mo of mecca (pbuhahc)? ....... was he some kind of a ash-strewn hindoo sadhu who sat under a bunyan tree without any clothes on? ...... i knew a guy like that who walked around naked in pindora - kids used to chase him down the street and throw stones at him, but when he died they built a samll tomb with a few green flags ........ i like buddah, specially the fat laughing one who guards the door to many chinese restaurants ...... i don't like the skinny starving one because he reminds me of gandhi (and other horrible hindoos).......

....... it would be nice if we had pictures and statues of mo - it is hard to trust a man who is afraid to appear in public ..... what was wrong with him - they say he was epileptic, but he wasn't disfigured .. was he?

Kafir,

"you made ME recall"... correction! Just in case you get confused over it, and consult your daddy to solve the puzzle.

Bye.
-E

Re: # 164

Tahir-Kafir,

Muahh!
Thanks for the pic. :)

You made you recall those wild days.
btw, I live in North Nazimabad. Your guess was close. Come over, someday, you moron!

--------

Your history and literature teachers left you with silly notes, I guess, while you remained confused as to believe that Jesus was a (political) genius.

Pick up a r history reader or something. It will help. After all, now you are gonna be teacher yourself, no?

-E

Re: # 162

Nem,
lol.
Only if your mind is not too occupied with silly thoughts.

-E

Re: # 158

Anil,

Agreed. But my vote is for Chankiya against Buddha, politically speaking. Though I like the latter a bit more than Chankiya when it comes to his sense of individuality.
-E

"What I've suggested is let's weigh the advantages and the disadvantages. If the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, then we are reviewing the whole strategy and this should be on the table as well," he said.

Qureshi called for the United States to let Pakistan carry out attacks, saying it would resolve disputes on sovereignty.

///from jang of today///////

Paki foreign minister wants to operate the drones. This is true islam, if the pakis are killed by drones operated by pakis, it is ok, it is jihadic killigs. If the drones are operated by the yanks, it is kafirs killing muslims, it is not halal.

What a pathetic argument. Can you hear me, any educated paki.

Re: # 141
"Jesus was the sweetest of all, however Christianity would have wiped off the world history after he died if John hadn't..."

If John hadn't what? You mean Jesus was a failure? He was a success story; read the Book, will you!

When George Harrison sang MY SWEET LORD, he did it for KRISHNA! Didn't you know?

Jesus was a bitter to swallow by those who he campaigned against: the usurious rabbis in the temples earning money through homosexuality etc.!

Your rude-imentary knowledge of history and religion leaves a lot to be desired.

Tuitions start from March this year, enrol now to avoid disappointment.

PS: Hey, have you seen your photo on my latest gallery? Looks quite lovely!

Kiyani, Can you hear me.

A the leader of the paki army based on the motto, jihad in the name of god, what are you doing, your only supporter, who introduced the sharia laws way back in 1980, nawaz sharif has lost power.

This is teh time to restore the vision of jinnah, and answer the question from the masses, Lilaha illall, pakistan ka matlab kya. Answer kiyani, it is an islamic republic.

BSM

"P.S: Learn to admire people for their genuine contribution to humanity, even if it is meant to kill you, which i highly doubt anyway is the case in point.
besides, it's good to be a student of history for a change. Being a reactionary all the time is so boring a profession, no?
Think abt it.
Cheers"

So, seatbelt tightened for a rollercoaster ride?

" Chanakya does not rank anywhere near Mohammad. Buddha would. That is my view. "

BSM wanted to compare the two. He should have realised it.

#148 Posted by ana

"and if Cheema was told not to get involved, then neither should you, thanks. "

Cheema used harsh language in a situation which was already simmering and he got his due. The does not mean anybody would spurn a suggestion in good faith.

Why do you want to carry that burden? It was only a discussion turned ugly. There is an escape route.

Hamidm sahib:

Itni jaldi haar maan rahe hain, aap.

Dekhiye Arjun has reached 48, almost your age in a fraction the time you took. Masadi keeps coming back.

I think Chowk guys must be preparing to on Hajj and Tirath Yaatra, and trying to be holier than thou. This Chowk has an identity now, I hope they can figure it out what it is and act accordingly.

Re: # 128

BSM:

Your counters are profound, I completely agree with them.

BTW, I have said often on Chowk that Mohammad was a phenomenon in his time, and I say so despite the fact that I do not see any God's connection in my way of thinking. Chanakya does not rank anywhere near Mohammad. Buddha would. That is my view.

Nem,

My admiration for Muhammad is just like a political scientist's fascination with any influential genius in history. But you won't get it, cuz basic education lacks in you, and so does admiration for Muhammad's contribution to give this world a religion which had politics at core.

Now...wait ..wait.. don't get crazy...and don't start posting hate-comments abt so-called atrocities committed by Muslim rulers cuz of what Muhammad envisioned: Islam.

This is only cuz...I am not interested.

P.S: Learn to admire people for their genuine contribution to humanity, even if it is meant to kill you, which i highly doubt anyway is the case in point.
besides, it's good to be a student of history for a change. Being a reactionary all the time is so boring a profession, no?
Think abt it.
Cheers
-E

Masadi was right!! Chowk staff are part of the evil elite that is bent on taking over the world, and silences all voices in opposition!! And to think we laughed at Saint Masadi all these years!!

hamid:

FP is not going to be able to survive without your wit.

and masadi will miss you because he'll have one less person to rail at.

so we'll see you tomorrow! :D

Re: # 153

you weren't alone ... I got banned for protesting at your ban!

meray aziz hamwatnon,

....... it has finally happened! .... chowk staff banned me for 24 hours for simply saying 'pakistan zindabad' and telling the horrible hindoos to go where they belong and take their cow with them before we turned it into hamburger meat .....

...... as a protest i am going to boycott this forum for an indefinite period ........ tahmed is also going on strike to take part in the dharna to reinstate shahbaz sharif ......

..... g'bye, ali allah bless pakistan and may the hindoos get stuck as dung beetles in their cycle of reincarnation .....

pakistan zindabad!
bilawal bhutto zindabad!

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hamidm: you have been released from solitary confinement so fast while poor masadi languishes day after day??

eat beef!

pakistan zindabad !

nemesis:

I used gaaliyaaN after he implied what he did. And nowhere did I imply or speak of any support or liking for the Taliban. Folio knows I am from a Pakistani Christian family, and if he didn't then he's been asleep all this time (why do you think he was calling me a sweeper). It's bad enough to imply that all Pakistanis are taleban apologists or sanctioning evil, but the experiences that more than a few Christians have gone through at the hands of right-wingers makes what he said totally unacceptable to me.

Folio has already said he will no longer interact with me, I will no longer interact with him, and if Cheema was told not to get involved, then neither should you, thanks.

"In fact I think Muhammad was the best stateman/ leader material Arabs have produced to date."

However the philosophy of 'believe or get killed' does not appeal to me. You are only trying to block one's thinking capacity. Or was it something different and people understood it in a wrong way?

Also foreclosing all the options of amendments....?

#141 Posted by bittersweetmojo

Accepted in toto.

I was only trying to impress that it was rather a cakewalk for Muhammed, considering the people he was dealing with, as compared to Chanakya who was dealing with palace intrigues where very learned people were involved. It was a real game of chess.

#139 Posted by ana

The point at issue is that you dragged his mother in this predicament. A word of apology or just an acknowledgement of realisation of mistake would have ended this mess.

If VRV insinuated you into the taliban imbroglio it was based on your statement. Even if he was wrong there was a more civilized way of getting out of it.

Cheema,

Ur mediation is unsolicited and pl mind ur own business.

It's already stopped u imbecile.

ana ... and VRV ... stop it at once you imbeciles!!

Nem,

(to your post elsewhere, I guess Beena's piece)

On Krishna and Muhammad, I agree with Swami ji.
But Jesus was the sweetest of all, however Christianity would have wiped off the world history after he died if John hadn't articulated the gospels for Catholicism. So I would say it was John's contribution, not Jesus's.

Chankiya n Muhammad: you should realize that one was like a godfather/king-maker, the other was an Arab thinker/leader of highest order. So parameters of comparision will always be different if you try to find out who was better than the other.

In fact I think Muhammad was the best stateman/ leader material Arabs have produced to date. And the best Arab non-state leader is of course our dear Osama bhai! :)
-E

I don't want to argue on any issue with you , ana. Hope u understand that.

Folio,

You don't think implying that I like the Taliban is wrong? I didn't start this mess. You did by accusing me of something I am not. And let me tell you, when that happens, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but I'm not going to be nice like I used to be and not retaliate. So you started this mess, and when I got uglier than you did, you couldn't take it anymore.

Next time think before making false accusations. You and your friends here at Chowk are very good at doing just that. In the meantime, don't worry, I won't be dealing with the likes of you anymore.

127 nemesis3,

She can ridicule me and my opinions but not my mom who's more than god to me.

Thanks, btw.

#136 Posted by Folio

In fact you have been quite polite to him by calling him sweeper.

Yes, being a sweeper is not a gaali. It becomes a gaali when the sweeper begins to talk like a b**ng*

Calling names to mom is a very uncivilized act in India. That is because mothers are held next to God. This may not happen in other cultures or may be mother is treated only as a child making factory.

135, mojo, No intrusion. That's fine by me.

134, U started the gaalis. Check the record & dont address any posts to me in future. in the meanehwile have fun with the AHsho, the in-house idiot and the welfare queen of the US.

Folio,

Seems like I tried to be an intruder!
I get back to my camp.
Both of you carry on, plz.

-E

If you can't deal with ma-behen ki gaaliyaN, Folio, that's your problem. You choose to take it the way you do. As I said, what you call me, doesn't affect me, so keep at it. Keep calling me a sweeper.

You happen to think being a sweeper is a gaali, like so many Pakistanis. Like I said, you're not very bright.

I'm not going to respond to you or your friends anymore.

bsmojo,

It's nearly impossible as we know each other's weak points. Secondly we think alike, so our reflexes are similar.

We can do leg some pulling and some mild abuses are OK, imo.

This girl used some unprintable lingo today and I am taking account of that, else I am OK.

Folio (alias VRV)


Instead of picking on ana, don't you think you should ask your people not to use absusive language for both Pakistan and Pakistanis.
How about a collective effort to put an end to it?
At least here on Chowk.
-E

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I don't mind that you call me a sweeper Folio/VRV. It makes you no better than the Pakistanis who call me one, and it certainly doesn't make me one.

And I still don't think Hasho's a taliban apologist, even if I read what he said differently. I'm not backing down from that.

Re: # 126

Hasho,

fantastic. I agree with you 100%. But I want to make an addition to it. Of late I have been in conversation with Middle Class right-wingers, and now they all want Taliban to go to hell. They are now supporting people's movement, i.e: Lawyers Movement.

P.S: Kudos to Kurd sahib for his speech at DG Khan. The final sentence was 'main apney ander ka sara jazba bahar nahi lata, 16 March ko laonga. Miltey hain March main!" :)
-E

Re: # 122

Anil,

"Why do you love India?"

Many reasons. I love it cuz Kaifi Azmi, Quratul Ain Haider, Tagore, and other beautiful people lived/live there. I love it cuz I love Lucknow. I love Delhi nights and JNU. And I love Mankaneshwar Mandir across Gomti.

I love it cuz of its culture and traditions. I can go on n on... what do you wanna know Anil?

"I accept it as a reality, and I am bullish about the current generation of Indians do something better than what my or my father's generation did."

Great. One should keep a check.

"As long as there is generational improvement, India will succeed."

Yes, right. I wish you best.

"This would be quite emotional, and irrationality, including evil fascism comes out in such cases."

If you ask me, off the record, Patriotism and love for one's country shouldn't be defined by its land. History does wonders with land, so one shouldn't pile around a piece of land and consider it sacred.

My idea of patriotism is connected with people I like to be with, live with. Like I love Pakistan cuz Faiz sahib was a Pakistani. Same goes for my people. It's very simple!

Now with nation-states fighting for their interests, I don't know how you can avoid one's onslaught against another (albeit, fascism). This is because of Capitalism we live in. It has nothing to do with loving one's country.

My love for my country won't make me kill you, just cuz you love yours.
-E

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“let more Pakistanis come out on the streets to protest against the Taliban, against violence and against the murder of their own people. And for peace and dignity and friendship with their neighbors. Let them pressure their state to take action and soon enough the world will unite around their courage and share in their battle.
But if they decide to stay at home and say nothing, they will be sanctioning evil itself. “

I am surprised that Mr. Mani gets published in a premier Indian newspaper. He clearly would not get published in some reasonably quality paper such as Dawn, News or Dailytimes. I guess Indian newspapers need some fill-up-the-space articles and a friend here and there in the editorial staff usually comes good for Mr. Mani. What friends are for after all?

He shows what is actually wrong with Indian media that has accepted cheap tricks over substance and quantity over quality.

Taliban are not big enough a reason to come out on the streets in Pakistan and I think it would be a mistake to bring people out on the streets to counter the mostly non existent Taliban in Karachi and Lahore. The Taliban is primarily a Pathan movement that has gained some ground after 30 yrs of turmoil in FATA. The total Pathan population in Pakistan is around 8% and almost 3% of them live outside of NWFP. Even if the NWFP falls to Taliban in an electoral miracle, the Taliban will not be a majority in Pakistan as the Taliban movement has no roots in Punjab, Sindh and Baluchistan.

There was a growing problem of fundamentalism, and sectarianism in some pockets of Pakistan but most of the population centers are not effected by it. There is no hope for fundamentalist or sectarians to win elections or win otherwise in any other part of Pakistan.

There are enough signs out there to see that the civilian government has been able to stem the rot in that area. Now what we hear are mostly political, economic, and socials problems. People are up in arms for power supply, they are up in arms for better transportation, and they are clamoring for better law and order situation.

With the dismissal of the Punjab government, the focus in Pakistan would be on National politics for some time to come. On the face of it, this looks bad but in reality, political maneuvering by the major political parties would send the fundamentalists further behind in the public approval.

The simplest game in politics like in life is: Out of Sight, out of Mind.

There is no need to make the Taliban a central issue in internal Pakistani politics. Pakistan needs to deal with the Taliban militarily and outside of Pakistan borders.

Re: # 120

nb,

"I totally accept it, BSM. It is wrong to think that Indians don't accept Pakistan."

No, you don't. Let me tell you why. It has something to do with HOW-DARE-THEY attitude. All of you have, desis and NRIs alike, this attitude infested in your mind about Pakistan. How dare they! yeah right, I dare. I can quote you instances when you guys come up with this attitude, from Jinnah to Tahmed to anyone and anything Pakistani.

And by the way, it's not cuz of two-nation theory. I could never buy that theory either. A lot of people also believe that the famous Pakistan movement in Hindu-majority areas before 1947 picked rhythem because there were no jobs for Muslim middle class as opposed to the educated Hindu middles class which was smarter than them. Quite true.

Besides the slogan of Islam was also a tool not for early Jinnah, but mullas at large who ironically tied themselves with Gandhi ji all their life. (Azad excluded!)

This Pakistan-ka-matlab-kya slogan was later introduced in our textbooks.

(If you really want, I can send you primary and secondary textbooks published here in 1952. My friend found them by chance at a second-hand book store. God, nb aapa, I couldn't believe that myself, though I was really happy to see that they were promoting civilizations of ancient India, owned them as ours like collective heritage.)

In our Punjab, everybody knows that Pakistan movement was never so strong before Unionists announced their support. So the point is, we know what happened or shouldn't have happened. ok??

"A lot of Indians don't accept the two-nation theory."

It doesn't matter now. What pisses me off is your big-brother attitude that I have told you about.

"There is much between love and hate,but desis love being drama queen, you only have to watch all the melodrama on Indian TV that everyone watches!"

Well, I am a desi. Can't help it!
But I am happy to see my people not going crazy after anything you guys do back home. Pakistani media, though we have a few problems with it, has acted surprizingly maturer than yours.

A good example is this recent Kasab-fiasco. Same goes for your public, who cheers in joy when a Pakistani dies in a blast.

You can see it here on chowk. Not a single Indian I have come across who intends/wishes/wants Pakistan to get out of its present problems. You guys give each blast a clap! Great. What friendly neighbours we have!

But I think comparisions and expectations are pointless at this point in time.
-E

I think the article would've been good had the writer not carried a sort of a chip on his shoulder...and only if it had been utopia in India, and most of their own humongous problems were solved...but as they say if you sit in a house made of glass you must not throw stones at others...

Re: # 36

Hasho...while the rest of your post is ok...I must take exception with your statement: "Now look at India’s history. I would not even mention the Muslim rule(which was pretty much unchallenged for 600 yrs)." How come you guys are continuously cutting down the length of time from 1000 years of Muslim rule over India to 600?

Re: # 119

BSM:

"...If you ask me, I love India for reasons known only to myself..."

Why do you love India?

I accept it as a reality, and I am bullish about the current generation of Indians do something better than what my or my father's generation did. As long as there is generational improvement, India will succeed. Does it mean I love India, I do not think so. This would be quite emotional, and irrationality, including evil fascism comes out in such cases.

Rakesh Mani, since our Pakistani friends can not hear you, perhaps you need to arrange a lecture tour of that country. In your lecture, you can carefully explain to the average Pakistanis the foolishness of all their acts since (and from before) independence. You can give them stern warning on the potential pitfalls of their foolhardy ways. If you explain it in just the right way, for all I know, the light of knowledge may glimmer in those despondent Pakistani eyes! They may feel a reason for hope and their despondency may vanish! They will learn to delink religion from the affairs of the state so peace and prosperity and general bhai-chara would return to the land and men would stop being suspicious of each other! They would start treating their women as equal partners! There would be beautiful music on every street corner round the clock, except for those occasional statements of heartfelt appreciation expressed by the common Pakistani folks:

“That Rakesh Mani dude, he sure was something! What a smart fellow! Even smarter than Jinnah sahib!!�

I totally accept it, BSM. It is wrong to think that Indians don't accept Pakistan. A lot of Indians don't accept the two-nation theory. I don't either, but I accept that other people accept it. So Pakistan exists!
I won't ask you why you love India, that's your business.
There is much between love and hate,but desis love being drama queen, you only have to watch all the melodrama on Indian TV that everyone watches!

nb aapa,

Don't tell me what's in between love n hate. There's nothing, by the way. Relationships are based and found on mutual respect and acceptence for each other's existence. This is the case with humans, and so is it between countries.

If you ask me, I love India for reasons known only to myself. But...you know... forget it, you won't get it!

And if you really want any form of neighbourly relationships, first accept the existence of Pakistan and Pakistanis by heart.

---------

nem,

Go on, discuss about anything you like or dislike in and about India or for that matter about the world at large, exclusing Pakistan. Just don't give us your advice, that's it.

And yes, if Pakistanis interfere in you affairs, you let them do that. And now I am not going to tell you guys that what kind of fuss you create over a minor issue of interference, because that's none of my business. But what I can tell you is that Pakistanis don't create a fuss over your minor interferences.
A good example of which is, they havent reacted absolutely with nothing on this acticle's intention.

Thank you.
-E

Rakesh

You write well with good intentions but lack in depth knowledge of Pakistan's history a prerequisite to form opinions and then make recommendations that can be taken seriously.

Was not Swat not a good enough example to explain how things work in Pakistan? People voted in favor of moderates, secularist yet their mandate has been scuttled by force and state machinery seems o have failed, but that is just one perspective. Reality is that these thugs are the creation of our agencies and they are far more important than some mandate, just like the constitution of Pakistan, a piece of paper that can be set aside whenever the need arises.

Handing over the country to the Islamist/fundamentalists/terrorists may appeal to you from an intellectual masturbation (excuse my language) perspective but for a common Pakistani who has seen how these people operate this means the end of a country.

And please do not quote that oft repeated statement 'Pakistan is the epicenter of terrorism', Pakistan is the biggest victim of terrorism, little does the outside world understand or care to share the burden.

thanks

#115 Posted by bittersweetmojo

Sorry. I was only trying to tell you that when you people interfere into India's affairs, you think it is your privilege and when somebody tells you something, it becomes a blatant interference.

Things will be definitely discussed no matter what you feel about it. So if you choose to, tear your hair.

BSM, you can co-exist without being friends or brothers or enemies, and that is what I would like for India and Pakistan. Desis can only think in terms of love and hate, as if there's nothing in between.

nb aapa,

I agree with you. Mani sahib, no advice, please! It's no use, we don't want to listen to you or anyother Indian.

We are not rivals; we are enemies. So let's get real. Period.
Thank you.
-------
nem,

Read my posts. You have a bad habit of draging A into Z.
You have no right to ask where was I? Or what I was doing? Just stop poking nose in our internal affairs.
Thank you.

P.S: My earlier posts on this subject are good enough to answer all your questions, though I don't feel compelled to do so.

-----------
Tahmed,

Chowk is NOT a Pakistani site. How could it be if Indians are allowed to interact like free anti-Pakistan demons here?

P.S: No comments by any Indian, please! This is my response to one of my countrymen. So behave!
-E

#107 Posted by nb

"Inquilaabi, I still have a friend who does it. I think people have to give up on the idea of friendship between these two countries, it's unrealistic."

I suppose so because one friend wants to kill the other because he does not believe in former's God. His faith wants him to do that in order to get lots of houries after death.

I never said I was paying the author a compliment. I'm telling him it's pointless, but he will still keep going, since he must be an optimist. Either way, I'm not insulting you or your country, so stop the attack.

nb: fair point on you not being responsible for your countrymen. but you are responsible for what you write - why are you ridiculing an indian who wants peace with Pakistan? And calling someone a "candle-lighter" is a put-down, not a compliment. And you known that, so please talk straight. And I am doing an important thing by writing on chowk, rather than rather with chalk!!

Tahmed, I don't hold you responsible for Mr Masadi and many, many others, so don't carry on about what my countrymen do. It is not as if you are personally blameless in this situation, so don't paint yourself as the victim.
What is the 1947 virus? You are just angry because I told the author he was not loved and wanted by those he wishes to befriend. Why do you have to get involved with this, and how does the 1947 virus fit in?
If people actually go to Wagah, are they not candle-lighters?
Can you please tell chowk to stop calling itself a South Asian website then? This appears to be false advertising.
And I thought you had important things to do?

inquilaabi is banned again, and ana is still in chowk jail.

Chowk is a South Asian website, every South Asian countryperson can take ownership of it. Where are the Nepalis by the way?

nb. . . perhaps you are right. Individual friendships are one thing but Pakistan India behen behen? Even sisters separate and become "enemies." I know.

nb: and i have a life. unlike your countrymen, i dont spend my time predicting the doom of india and trying to ridicule other people's religion like 90% of indian posters. and unlike you, i dont ridicule anyone who talks peace as being a "candle-lighter".

nb #102 you dont have to born to get a virus. it has obviously been passed on through the previous generation to you. try and get over it. you will lead a happier and more fulfilling life. unlike your miserable countrymen who show up on chowk. and yes - chowk is a pakistani website regardless of what you claim. it was started by a pakistani and the issues it deals with are largely pakistani.

Inquilaabi, I still have a friend who does it. I think people have to give up on the idea of friendship between these two countries, it's unrealistic.

I thought burning candles at Wagah was a great idea once upon a time, and then I spent years at Chowk, and was corrupted. ;)

And you've written heaps more than me, shouldn't you get a life too?

And you've written heaps more than me, shouldn't you get a life too?

Yes, back to square one, go to an Indian website...like Chowk is a Pakistani website.
Like a child who picks up his bat and ball and goes home.

I don't have a 1947 virus, I wasn't even born at the time. Explicate further. I'm just telling Rakesh it's a waste of time at Wagah. How come you don't go there yourself, if you think it's such a good idea?

nb: i have to go now. get a life - or go to an indian website if you hate pakistan so much.

#99 nb: i am not complaining. i am trying to help you get this indian virus number 1947 out of your system.

Tahmed, why don't you declare war on me and get it over with? What are you complaining about?

#97 nb: why dont you declare war on Pakistan and get it out of your system??

Rakesh Mani, after this reception from Pakistanis, you'll still be at the Wagah border with candles, won't you?

inquilabi #85 i wasnt disputing your views - we need all voices in favor of political stability in Pakistan that we can get. I was just asking for greater clarity.

Rakesh Mani:

Next time, since you're truly concerned for Pakistanis, how about writing a piece called "India, can you hear me" and talk about how all those in her neighboring country shouldn't be judged by the same standard.

You probably wouldn't be able to do that.

Lowly woman has problems of incomprehension.

Anyway, shoooooooooo

#23 Posted by bittersweetmojo

" because today you are offering advice the next day you will launch an attack with an excuse that 'I-Am-Doing-So, Cuz-You-Could-NOT-Deliver, who knows! So why not put an end to your entrance at first,"

Remembering your glorious religious history, huh?

Oh yeah, I'm lowly, I'm lowly because I'm a woman who uses foul language and points out to you where you messed up. I'm lowly because you can't handle a woman arguing strongly with you and when you do, you use language like lowly. Yeah I'm lowly, and I'm proud to be lowly. And now you shoo me away like I'm some makkhi. hahahahahaha.

So so rich. Such a double-standard bearing hypocrite!

hahahahaha

Next time, why don't you actually show you give a damn about what happens to Pakistanis, instead of making false accusations about me liking the Taliban. The Taliban wouldn't leave me alive if I went back to Pakistan and defied them and I know that,. If you knew that, you wouldn't have said such an assholish thing. I am on the side of that part of the awaam who will fight the Taliban and there will be a fight.

Don't worry, you little ignorant hypocrite. I'm going now.

#20 Posted by bittersweetmojo

"but I never talk about what Muslims/ Indians in India should and should not do. "

Were you around when Government bulldozers were used to destroy whatever few temples remained in Pakistan to protest against Babri Masjid?

Did you rise to object to the asylum given to Dawood Ibrahim in Pakistan who masterminded serial explosions in India?

Did you stop those kasabs on their way to India to kill innocent people? All you said was Mumbai attacks and Pakistan?... I don't think so.

Why did Gujarath riots pinch you so hard? It was India's internal matter.

Where were you when the Paki Army infiltrated into Kargil and your mian said, janab, hum unhein mujahid pukarte hain.

Lowly woman, shooooooooooo

Yeah I'm lowly, I'm lowly because I use foul language. You've just shown yourself for the piece of work you are VRV. You are a blind fool. Tell me how you came to understand the "movement" as being the Taliban? LOL Uneducated piece of work.

87,

U are lowly woman. enuff.

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81, inquilabi,

Sufi Mohd was carrying banners and cards in fav of Shariah for a long time. It's never bloody. It became bloody ONLY after Taliban took over the cause. They knew what they're doing and they're led by maulvis (qualified theologians).

I talked abt disappointment coz of familiarity with u on UP not that I care a lot abt ur opinions (these things are mutual, btw). In fact none of our opinions mean anything to the world outside of Chowk.

U can keep believing that Taliban are misguided ppl and Swat is an isolated phenomenon in Pakistan.

Hello, I am teaching u nor I want to & It's ur own business whether u like Taliban or not.

what tahmed? did i say something wrong about how there are actually some people in Swat who are for Shariah. It would be dishonest to say there are not. I'm not saying the people of Swat asked for what is happening or anything. I'm not in denial about the Taliban. I am just questioning VRV's notion of who is a bloody Taliban apologist, and apparently, he thinks someone who is a Pakistani nationalist, is a Taliban apologist. This from someone who would cry foul if an Indian nationalist was described in an unfair way.

vrv: no need to thank me for merely commenting on what you wrote.

#81 take a deep breath, arrange your thoughts, and then re-write your post so it is understandable.

correction: (except for the JUI) should have been in brackets because the government has a hand in this too.

VRV:

you are being deliberately obtuse. Why are you ignoring Sufi Mohammad, and other parties except for the JUI and the bloody government? I do know what I'm talking about here. The supporters of Sufi Mohammad and the Taliban are misguided dolts. . . and yes, it IS these misguided dolts, who made peace with the Taliban, who are for shariah. These misguided dolts happen to be in the region of Swat.

I don't give a damn if you're disappointed in me. Your opinion of me matters little in the big scheme of things. I am not being an apologist for Hasho. I would have defended zeemax for being called an apologist as well, but zeemax IS an apologist, and a supporter. I am just saying that a lot of our tendencies here to paint someone with the wrong brush makes us maha idiots, and I have said that in defense of Indians as well as Pakistanis, VRV.

So kindly go to hell because you are being patronizing in trying to teach me what is happening in Pakistan. You can't read, you only see what you want to see, and no one can argue with a brick wall. I am not being blind or obtuse about the Taliban. Next time I say something similar to what Hasho said about going against the army, the government and the fundoos, I'll be branded a taliban apologist, and that's just bloody bloody ignorant.

Thank you Sir.

VRV #78 I agree 50% with you - the taliban are a bunch of crooks. However, the Pakistan government has failed in its duty to use the full power of the state to protect innocent people from their lust for power (disguised as "islam").

76, Is that Ana?

a. Taliban are not misguided ppl. They are in business (Afghanistan and Pakistan) for abt a decade.

b. Taliban destroyed abt 190 schools in Swat & beheaded ppl on daily basis

c. Banned all forms of art (dancing, singing and any performing art)

If u want to give them benefit of doubt then yes call them misguided.

As for Swatis asking for Talibani Shariah, it is a big bullsh. If public wanted it then they'd have voted for JUI guys but not ANP. Nevertheless if they really wanted they'd not be migrating by foot in droves (half million already migrated).

The peace deal is for the welfare of the Swatis. Since Army conceded defeat and central govt was handsoff-ish, ANP bought peace. If it is a crime then what's the solution?

In effect party that bought peace is a criminal but not the ppl who destroyed the civil life and economy of Swat.

What a irony! Ana, it's disappointing to hear this from you.

cheema sahib #72: hamidm's comments have been filtered? I checked the chowk posts below, and sure enough...Lo and Behold our Unseen, Almighty Chowk Moderator has woken from His/Hers cicada-style slumber and smitten once again at the sinners of chowk, with Hamidm not escaping this Wrath of Allah..I mean of the Chowk Moderator. Verily we are fcuked!! (as Prophet Hamidm would say) :-(

VRV:

You need to learn to read carefully sometimes, and not jump to conclusions just because Hasho pisses Indians off.

"The Movement in Swat though misguided has roots in local public demands. It is unfortunate that the secular parties such as ANP allowed the rightwing to take control of the situation but that will come to pass."

Yes, the Taliban, horrifyingly does have designs on the rest of Pakistan, but what Hasho is saying here is that there are those idiots in FATA who have made demands for shariah, and have done so over the years. And Hasho wrote in length about how a "secular" party sold out to the likes of Sufi Mohammad and other "ultra-religious" right-wingers. ANP, as a secular party made the worst compromise they possibly could for the "survival" of their people. And I am willing to give Hasho the benefit of the doubt (not something I always do) in that he messed up with his English just as I do with mine, and said, "this shall pass" - it will not pass peacefully.

This does not make Hasho wet his pants for the unglorious Taliban.

74, inquilabi,

Pl read carefully. The AHsho is telling that Swat is becoz of some 'misguided locals' & a 'localised issue' as the 'public there demands' Shariah.

It's not a local issue but part of the Taliban attempts to take control.

Isn't he advocating for Taliban and whitewashing the unspeakable crimes they perpetrated there? Does awam of Swat want all that destruction & still migrate outta the place in droves?

Makes no sense buddy. It's an attempt to portray them as peaceful guys and the ANP as villains who signed peace deal with the peaceful guys.

Does it make any sense except to delusional ppl?

VRV:

are you going to call everyone a Talibaani apologist who speaks up for Pakistan. How bloody ignorant is that? Join the ranks of Arjun and others of your ilk why don't you? I guess it isn't possible to be a nationalist or the slightest bit patriotic without being painted a Taliban apologist.

Such idiots abound here at Chowk.

Hasho is right about the protests against Zia. There may be a few folks left here on Chowk who can attest to that. Surkhis and left-leaning folk can attest to that. And Hasho, whatever else he is, is not a Talibaani apologist. And no, protests against Zia are not totally a different class, because Zia pushed for shariah for all of Pakistan and there were many who flat out opposed that. Women and minorities marched against the Hudood, it wasn't just "let's sit here and take this."

If you want Pakistanis to be brutally attacked or massacred at the hands of police and army, among others, they will be glad to oblige you for their country. Because that is what is going to happen without more organized planning and consensus. It has happened before. It will happen again. I say thank God for those who are protesting this out on the streets, working through other means other than street protests, and those who are raising their voices through letters to the editors. . .

33 & 34, hamid2

".... i think my last post speaks for all pakis .....damn it felt so good i have to repeat myself :

... pakistan zindabad!
... fcuk all indians and the cow they rode in on !

..... now that was refreshing, wasn't it!"

The cathartic moment of a e-jihadi wannabi momin.

Job well done hamid. Keep the good job job going. I am happy for ur impotent rage.

(thumbs up)

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corr

(I can guarantee now that if the army take over in India, people will be distributing mithai allover India!)

Zaid Hamidist delusion.

AHsho, Ur ignorance is ur bliss.

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#68 by BS-ing Mojo (c***!yay!)

See you soon!

harish (kameenay) and (pyaare) humsab,

...LATERS, guys! :)

gtg,
Cheers.
-E

Barkhurdar BJM

There is difference between 'interfer' and 'advice'. Interference, you can stop by making afforts but 'muft ki adivce' you can't stop. Na kisi ka muNh baNd kiya ja sakta hai aur na keyboard typing. OK

Love!!!
Pakistanis have been telling us for 60 years not to love them but we still have not stopped. You look at Kuldip Nayyar and Party. Sach kehti hai duniya ishaq pe zor nahi. There is no way you can stop us from loving our enemy. It runs in our blood. We had Jai Chand.

Cheer up!

#63 by bittersweetmojo

We are not neighbours like good, sweet, happy go luck neighbours. We are ENEMIES, don't you ever forget that.

And where did I claim we were?

And naturally we will slap them first as well and if by Gandhian rule they offer the other cheek (which they WON'T, I know), we will slap them again.

BS-ing Mojo, there WAS a time you could do that; sadly, those times are behind you. Did you observe the way your country bent over backwards to admit Pakis were involved in Mumbai? As the days go by, you'll see more and more of that. As they say, laaton kay bhoot baaton say nahin maantay!

Even if your over one billion population dies of TB, we won't even tell you to get medicated.

Well, if those one billion Indians sneeze in the direction of Pukistan, you'll die not of TB, but by drowning in the bacteria that causes TB.

Paki mind set,

Many pakistanis on chowk blame zardari and the rulers for allowing drone attacks, bombing paki land etc. They have to realise that these leaders are doing it so that the poor paki in the street has something to eat, that is to pay for the electricity, for the imported wheat, sugar and increasingly even vegetables.

Pakistan economy is bankrupt and that is the reason one has to go begging to the outside world and that is why the drones have to bomb pakiland.

That is the reason Indians are advicing pakis, that is why three countries have appointed special advisors for pakistan to instruct teh zardaris and others.

That is the reason why kiyani has to go to the Us when summoned.

It is humiliating for any pakistani to see this, but that is the proce one has to pay for deciding to follow a book. A book that has no notion of truth and integrity, that is why mumbai attacks was denied, till obama instructed what to say.

It is hard to see any other country asking to be humiliated. At individual levels, each and every pakitani on chowk as a beginning has to learn what is meant by truth, a truth that is not mentioned in the book, a truth that is understood empirically, not a devine truth.

Humsab,

"Why Indians should not give advice to Pakistanis?"
For one reason: just like Pakistan has no right to advise Indians on their internal matters, Indians should have NO right to interfere in Pakistani matters. Simple!
------
On a lighter note, what if I tell you that I love you for your mention of 'million dollar question' and advise you not to love me back, please? Though I smiled at your attempt to answer this 'million dollar' question.

ye tu perfectly okay hai na! :)
-E

harish,

"...it is but natural that when you don't have your house in order, neighbors will offer unsolicited advice."

We are not neighbours like good, sweet, happy go luck neighbours. We are ENEMIES, don't you ever forget that. (I've read your posts against Pakistan in bad faith)

"The ones you hate will do it first."
And naturally we will slap them first as well and if by Gandhian rule they offer the other cheek (which they WON'T, I know), we will slap them again. : D
Remember? We HATE you, right?

"Now you may come back and say that India isn't doing great either."

No. I won't. Surprize, surprize!

"... ordinary Indians are threatened by the Jihadi pigs that abound in your country, so it is their natural right to do something about it."

There is no such right called a 'natural right'. I read all books/ideologies/religions/systems in my Ethics course back at KU. :D
But, I must say I have no clue till now as to what they teach you about rights of neighbours back at JNU.


"(offering advice being the least of them all)."

Go for the next option, baby! You just skip this one, ok?

"...we will welcome any advice coming from you."

No. Thank you. We don't want to offer you anything anytime ever. Not only now, I mean NEVER. Even if your over one billion population dies of TB, we won't even tell you to get medicated.
Now Get off!
Thank you.
-E

#58 by bittersweetmojo

It's just this Big Brother attitude which is pissing me off, that's all.

BS-ing Mojo, it is but natural that when you don't have your house in order, neighbors will offer unsolicited advice. The ones you hate will do it first. Now you may come back and say that India isn't doing great either. I agree, but ordinary Indians are threatened by the Jihadi pigs that abound in your country, so it is their natural right to do something about it (offering advice being the least of them all). The day you can say the same about us (with proof, and not something that you guys do all the time (pull out "facts" from your rear without any evidence)), we will welcome any advice coming from you.

Now, million dollar question is , 'Why Indians should not give advice to Pakistanis?'
Everyone in the world keeps on giving advices to everyone else.
And as Indians it is our 'Janam sidh adhikar' since not too long ago that land was Indian and so we can't bear to see it going down the drain. Moreover if our lovableenemy had been able to take care of itself in a proper manner, things would not have been so bad.
Isliye kisi aqalmaNd aadmi ki baat sunane maiN harz hi kya hai? Ultimately Pakistanis will do what they want to do.

Re: # 57
nb aapa (Can I call you aapa if you don't mind?)

"what else are you going to do?"

Tell me first what have I done?

"People like Rakesh Mani give Indians advice all the time too."

Fair enough. It's his moral right to advise fellow Indians. "Keep it up, Mani!" that's all I can say.

"You can't kill them all."
I don't want to. :)

"Pakistanis give the USA and India and even Israel advice all the time. All these countries currently appear to be ignoring said advice."

Great. Now get off my back, please!
-E

Re: # 53
nb...
M J Akber is not, what you are thinking...same jihadi appologist like most of the Pakis here...US source of all evil..there is another bluffer who writes in Dawn- xyz Naqvi...

stuka,
Once an Indian, always an Indian. That's what I know. No matter what he is, a leftist or whoever, Mani is an INDIAN.

P.S: I have nothing against Hindus/Muslims/ whatever. It's just this Big Brother attitude which is pissing me off, that's all.
-E

BSM, what else are you going to do? People like Rakesh Mani give Indians advice all the time too. You can't kill them all. Pakistanis give the USA and India and even Israel advice all the time. All these countries currently appear to be ignoring said advice.

nb

"I do get it, you don't want to hear him."

Great. One minor correction. It's not I alone. Ask other Pakistanis on board. Now don't tell me that I have to right to speak on other's behalf since I don't represent them as such. Hope you don't expect Pakistani Parliament to do that here on Chowk. :)

"That's fine, but you can't stop him from offering his advice."

Why not? If I don't want milk and the doodhwalla keeps coming back, I can simply tell him to SHUT UP and Mind His OWN Business. No feelings, huh?

"Pakistanis offer us advice all the time."
Great. You let them do that, I guess.

"Learn to ignore advice you don't want."
Once again, your advisory pandora box opens and an advice pops up ...
What do you guys think of yourself, huh?
God! I am sick of you all complex-ridden Indians! :(
-E

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Nb di,

For Nkg moshai, every Muslim is an "Urdoo speaking Moslem barbarian" it is futile to convince him that it can be otherwise. Unlike us he is consistent.

Regards

NKG, MJ Akbar is one of the very few Indian journalists with integrity, and he is not an Islamist.

rakesh,
this is natural fallout of a fully functional Islamic society...brits and indic influence deferred it little bit, but the writing on the wall was already there from 1947, when punjus and sindhis started migrating from Pakistan to India...India should have helped in islamisation by tranafering Darul Ullum etc...to Pakistan....you can not reverse the trend of 1000 years of contineous barbarism...even the islamist like M J Akabr admitted that...

I do get it, you don't want to hear him. That's fine, but you can't stop him from offering his advice. Pakistanis offer us advice all the time. Learn to ignore advice you don't want.

#48
nb,
Great. You guys did that too. How come?
Anyway.
It's cuz of poor Pakistani media, it never tells us what's going on across the border, unlike your media fundoos who keep writing sensational headlines and slugs about Pakistan every now and then. Murrow would call it: "Crazy Journalism".

#47
btw, It's quite amusing to see that you guys REALLY don't GET it!
LOL. Funny, isn't it?

Let me say it once again out loud: WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING FROM YOU, LET ALONE AN ADVICE.

Thank you.
-E

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BSM, there were many protests against the Iraq war in India, as in many other countries. Now carry on.

I saw this article on outlookindia.com, and thought it would be just right for chowk. I can see you mean well, but as you can see, it won't help because it comes from someone with an Indian name.

Re: # 45 Please do not consider general P. Musharraf as corroupt bum like BB or NS.
General had to work and do job all life. There is no hidden corrouption closet. People may not like as he lost game but making allegations of financial gains is not truthful.
You are bad wishing by comments
" talibans will fianlly be in parliament of Pakistan. You can't do anything about it. This is the fate of Pakistan and of Pakistanis."
This is not sure manifest destiny neither american army or Pakistan army drinking goat milk and vegetables. They elected MMA earlier there is no difference between MMA and Talibans, like real cocacola and diet cola. One should not lament democracy , the results are not garranted. It is still better than Indians electing antigod communists.
People will elect what they like and TTP may win elections then people deserve self punishment.
Kindly do not become so pessimist, things are not best , there are problems of young democracy and with all problems also NS, PPP, mr.Z and MQM , altaf will continue towards democracy, what is needed is unquestionable optimism and belief in almighty and miracles. Every thing is all right and things in end work fine.

Dear writer
Yes, your message is quite valid. But, you see there is a little problem with average poor Pakistani citizen, majority of them are intentionally kept illiterate and poor by a systemtatic and schematic Mullahism and feudalism.

And majority of them are even unaware of their basic right of their citizenship.

They have been sleeping since Bhutto's corruption to Musharaf's corruption. There is no difference between Talibans and an average poor Pakistani because both are brainwahsed and hijakced by some forces in the name of religion to use them as their weapons of mass destruction in Pakistan and around the world. They don't even know that they are dancing on someone's tunes.....

Average Pakistani won't get up against Talibans violence. They have never gotten up against corruption, against Zia ul Haq, against Bhutto, against Musharaf and against Zardari's corruptions....

In their own little world, they wish Talibans to rule Pakistan.

And I am sure, Talibans will finally rule Pakistan b/c Pakistanis wish them to rule and why not? Pakistan needs to have fair justice...enough is enough...

talibans will fianlly be in parliament of Pakistan. You can't do anything about it. This is the fate of Pakistan and of Pakistanis.

Re: # 7

Then "you" don't need an advice from Mani, but cannot claim on behalf of the rest of your folks who actually have a lot to say about how India should conduct its business (hell, some of them actual entered India on dinghies and conducted business like they have been taught in the premier 'business' schools of their land). So unless you represent everyone in Pakistan, you cannot reject the advice on behalf of everyone.

No country has faced what Pakistan did, huh? I don't have lists to compare, but it sounds like when a guy from India who told me with total conviction that the language of his home state was the sweetest of all languages in the world. Subjectivity please meet Objectivity.

#2 asked how would Indians feel if Bangladeshis offer advice.. I cannot talk for all Indians (there are a more than handful), but I hope that the objective/reasonable ones among us would focus on the quality/soundness of the Bangladeshi advice rather than querying the good 'Deshis how they'd feel if Pakistanis gave them suggestions. But unlike the definitive statements that you guys make about your homeland I cannot vouch for what my fellow Indians think.

"..to think that Pakistanis are ready to take to the streets, ... when Salman Rushdie writes something controversial or when offensive cartoons are published ... but are curiously silent when ... is bombed ...Or when Taliban forces capture Swat and start beheading people..."

I suppose you could deduce that the people with strong opinions on the first are not the same as the people who could be expected to protest the latter.

bubba,

you don't get it, I guess. It's none of your business darling!
But anyway. Hasho will give you the right answer: a slap probably!
-E

Re: # 36

Hasho bhai,

Do you remember the political slogans by ZAB's chaheetas..."nau mullaoun ka eik madaari...sub ko nachayeh baari baari..." and just look what pakis did to their own elected leader. As mqm-mafiaso boss alt-F would say "the establishment killed him".

bhai sahib, except for hamid mian and bismallah bhai, you are probably right regarding most posters on this site as being "be-aqal" and "ghaday". Frankly, for pakis, it is a lot easier to be a destructive force in this world, than to be effective rulers. When it comes to being effective rulers, Pakis have despicable record. Hamid mian blames the unwashed masses of puristan for their current condition. Some of us claim that KSA and their brand of islam is to be held responsible. Why is it so difficult for pakis to see the downward spiral of their society?

By killing shias in puristan, pakis are inviting the wrath of another brand of iranian hizbullah within pakistan.

I can gurantee you muslim brotherhood, co-opting with the al-misris of egypt and jammat-e-islami, along with the coalition of the center-right political parties such as imran khan, and punjoos of raiwind will not be able handle this fight with indigenous paki hizbullah or imported palestinian hamas. I can already see a war-torn lebanon in the making or worse somalia.

yes hamidm, that was fuking refreshing!

Pakistan Zindabad!
Baqi sab gaye bhaar main!
----------

nkg,

I agree. Just attack and see what your ooqaat is, but we DONT WANT YOUR ADVICE. period. However I will respect you more if you stop posting and join Indian Army for a change, but that too is none of my business, so I assume silence in my court.

---------

majumdar,

Thank you.
Yes, if somebody from our side attacks you guys, let us know. Give us proof. We will prosecute him accordingly, I swear. For your satisfaction, I will personally see to it. :D but NO Advice, ok?

-------
Hasho,

Thank you very very much for quoting facts as facts. There are more than a million reasons of why I like my countrymen. Such an spirit, like yours, is one of them.

But I don't want to comment on what you wrote about Indian guts (or lack of).

------

CreateAlpha,

I have a Bravo & Charlie for you. Wanna find out?

-------------
P.S: On a lighter note, who remembers Shoaib Mansoor's Alpha-Bravo-Charlie? I loved that serial even though I have disliked army boots since birth. :D
-E

Good article Rakesh. These pakis are noggodniks, who just don't learn their auqaat. I mean look at hamidm, he is jumping up and down whereas he should be looking for a blue or black burkha for his next trip to Islamabad.

HP sain,

Re: 36

Well-written, I agree almost word for word.

I hope Pakistan's valiant struggle for democracy goes on for ages.

Regards

Rakesh,

It isn't right to preach sanctimoniously to other countries as to what they shud do with their purely internal matters. Surely you wudn't want Pakis to preach to us to march for preventing dual use of ultrasound tech, will we? Yes we have a right to crib about what does that directly impacts like terror camps for Kashmir and Mumbai. But not on Swat.

Regards

Some Indian writers and be-aqal ghaday posters have taken the route to advise Pakistani abt what to do. Pakistanis have a distinguished and prominent history of fighting against the dictatorships, obscure ideologies, oppression, and for the democratic rights. Since the first army attack on the civil rights in Pakistan in 1958, there were more than 10 uprisings against the establishment. The Baloch fought the army in 1959-1963. In 1964 there was first student uprising in Karachi that forced First Presidential elections in Pakistan. In 1967-69 the whole country was up in arms against the army dictatorship until they got rid of it. That uprising resulted in the first free and fair elections in Pakistan when political parties contested elections on ideological basis. The result of the election was a complete annihilation of the right wing extremist parties.

When the army refused to hand over power in 1971, majority province fought against the army in East Pakistan. That was the bloodiest battle in the history of the subcontinent between the people and the ruling elites.

The army saved itself by breaking up the country in two.

Then again from 1973 to 75 Baloch and Pathan fought against the army and the central government of Bhutto for their democratic rights.

The 1977 PNA movement though rightist in nature still was a protest against the high handedness of the Bhutto government.

From 1977 to 1984 there was not a peaceful day in Sindh or Punjab. Sindh took most of the burnt but tons of Punjabi fought for the democracy too.

Were it not for those battle, Pakistan would not have had a succession of civilian governments from 1988 to 1999.

There is still a major battle going between the establishment and the people. The lawyers movement has not quit and the political parties are continuing to build pressure on the establishment.

The Movement in Swat though misguided has roots in local public demands. It is unfortunate that the secular parties such as ANP allowed the rightwing to take control of the situation but that will come to pass.

Now look at India’s history. I would not even mention the Muslim rule(which was pretty much unchallenged for 600 yrs).

After 1857 it took Indians almost sixty years to build first movement against the British and that movement was led by the most reactionary faction of the Muslim population followed by the so-called liberal Congress party and its leaders.
From 1919 to 1947 one can count the total number of movements against the British and the numbers would not go beyond 5.

India was lucky that the British were exhausted, bankrupt, and under tremendous US pressure to let India go. I seriously doubt that Indians had it in them to physically fight the British for Independence.

After 1947 the first test to democracy in Indian, in 1977 emergency was met with a deafening silence and in fact was celebrated in India.

In 1992 a major political party led the largest assault on a minority and was rewarded by the electorate immediately afterwards.

I can guarantee now that if the army take over in India, people will be distributing mithai allover India!

Re: # 1
bsm...
that is true...
It is no ones business to discuss about pakiland...only action...hellfire missiles or kh25 missiles...do NATO guys advice pakiland on how to be civilised? nope, just action...

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Pub,

"Advocating a course of action for others does not necessarily entail a lack of respect or an attempt to be a police man/police state."

Mani was not advocating; he was advising. Besides we don't need anything from you slumdogs. Thank you.

"And how can a supporter of Taliban be against a police state?"

A gut reply can be: "Just like a liberal fascist like you is a supporter of the US Imperialism."

BUT..hold on...wait...my answer is:
That too is none of your business and is our "internal matter". Only my countrymen can ask me this question. Haven't you got it yet? You are a NOBODY to us. Now get lost with your champoo/fundo platoon!


-E

"respect other nations besides yourself and the US, and don't try be a policeman/ police state"

Advocating a course of action for others does not necessarily entail a lack of respect or an attempt to be a police man/police state.

And how can a supporter of Taliban be against a police state ?

The easiest thing in the world is to proffer advice for others to follow.

What a rude, presumptuous, waste of an article.

Pakistan

Rakesh,

Well articulated but the country is on one-way trip to radicalisation. Many parts of the country are outside the control of the formal govt and army.

Their press and non-religious intelligentsia are progressive in diff degrees but they are less effective in reversing this radicalisation.

What happens when we get boils? Wait till it matured. I see more of the 'frog in the hot water analogy' when it comes to Pakistan. Curse be on me but that's the ONLY truth I can say abt Pakkisstan. Yes, we in India have problems but they're not existential threats.

As far as I am concerned,you can choose to comment on whatever you want.But if you are chiding the Pakistanis from not protesting against SWAT you will be judged by the same standard.Have you protested against AFSPA? Have you heard about Irom Sharmila?

Re: # 24

Anil,

"You can go and protest with “Islam ka Dushman, Amreeka�, with your slogan “Insaan ka Dushman, Amreeka�, because there is a common enemy which is bigger than any other disagreement between the two."

You are absolutely wrong there. Your reply makes me believe that you don't have the slightest idea of how student leftists lock horns with religous fanatics in Pakistan (Though I have reasons to believe that you consider myself a fanatic as well, but that's not the point here)

Let me tell you why we shouted "Insaan Ka Dushman Amreeka". We were not countering Americans on the front. We don't have to do that. This country is anti-American. When I say anti-American, I only mean against-American-policies, OK?

Back to the poing. In fact, we were countering fanatics, just to tell other so -called neutral students that religous slogan is nonsense, and that these fanatics themselves were produced by the US. Interestingly, the fanatics also knew. Both of us know each other very well, y'know. :)

And an example of that is: after a few days, my group was attacked, not once but three times. We were forced not to enter, but we didn't complain, we didn't seek refuge, because we knew that it's us who have to deal with them. Same goes for former leftists. Pakistan had a fantastic left-leaning movement and the kind of persecution these people have received, it's much more than any Muslim/Ahmadi/Christian persecution anywhere in India and Pakistan.

Now. You common-enemy-thing in our context is rubbish, because both of us have different ideals/models. While the Western world - US and Europe - has a common goal, so your premisis suits their context, not ours.

Anyway.

"I did not see much demonstration in India against Gujarat riots, then again there were not much agitation (other than fuming media) on the streets of India. It does show something to me."

That again is your problem, Anil. Do you remember how and why I was arguing with Masadi on our national problems? Well, that's my point. It pisses me off, when an outsider tells me what to do with my life and country for this matter.

All I am saying in a civil way is: LET US FIND OUR WAY, AND DON'T ACT LIKE AN ARROGANT BIG BROTHER PLZ!
-E

rakesh:

it's alice only on Chowk. Kind of like the old TV ad: "i'm not a doctor, i just play one on TV."

I believe you to be genuinely concerned, but even I cringed while reading this article, and I'm not entirely certain if it was because it came across as being a little too aggressive, "baRoN ka ghussa maiN baRoN ka pyaar hota hai?" or because I believe that some of what you've said is thought and said by more than a few in Pakistan to deaf ears, and maybe more and more need to be even louder if we want to avoid what you think should happen vis-a-vis being crushed by the religious right in order for ordinary people to stand up and say no more. A number of Pakistanis did that by the way, they stood up and said no more during the draconian days of Zia, and they were crushed with laThi charges and worse. As you know, not everyone sits quietly while our remaining izzat goes down the drain, but yes, those who do have a choice to make before it is too late.

Pakistan doesn't hear so many of its own citizens. Good luck on her hearing you.

This is my last post. I don't wish to be part of the muddy deluge that is to follow. :)

Re: # 17

BSM:

I see religious fanatics, like all of us, live in all societies. They are not the issue, but their ideology and insistence to enforce their will and ideology on the others. Now if there is an equally determined group but diametrically opposite ideology, violent clashes do occur. Today, you may feel hurt but Pakistan and Palestine are such examples. You can go and protest with “Islam ka Dushman, Amreeka�, with your slogan “Insaan ka Dushman, Amreeka�, because there is a common enemy which is bigger than any other disagreement between the two. For the same reason, Amreeka and Europe unite more often than not against Islamic terrorists. To them this common enemy is bigger than any other differences they may have. Third parties – like China and say Hamidm sahib and others really do not care.

I am in total agreement with you that Pakistani awam expressed themselves. They should decide with however defective institutions there may be. India does this precisely too. India’s response to Mumbai attacks indicates that no one has ability to destroy democracy in Pakistan, except Pakistanis. I do not believe India’s response would have been so muted if a dictator was in power. I think Pakistan is quite safe, and India is not its enemy. I did not see much demonstration in India against Gujarat riots, then again there were not much agitation (other than fuming media) on the streets of India. It does show something to me.

Re: # 21
Mani sahib,

We don't want/need anyone anyway, that's my point. I believe in indigenous/self-made/home-cooked solutions to our problems, because today you are offering advice the next day you will launch an attack with an excuse that 'I-Am-Doing-So, Cuz-You-Could-NOT-Deliver, who knows! So why not put an end to your entrance at first, huh?

Baqi main aap se fuzool behas nahi karna chahta!

Thank you.
-E

Re: # 14

Pub,

All I am asking of you Indians is to respect other nations besides yourself and the US, and don't try be a policeman/ police state. You are a nobody to Pakistanis, let me tell you.

What is being said? Oh as if nobody is Pakistan is saying what your Mani uncle has written, huh?

You should know that Who's-SAYING-It has been the case in point in history. If you don't believe me, pick a history book and look at it with the prescribed way. It will make sense!

Thank you.
-E

Re: # 20

That's my point. You should talk about Indian leftists, what India could/should do, call on both sides to adopt a coordinated nuclear disarmament program..etc. You are entitled to those views, and I don't think anyone should deem your views as not welcome solely because of your nationality.

and yes Mani ji,

This is my friendly gesture. No hard feelings, as this is what I feel. I love India, especially Delhi and Lucknow, but I never talk about what Muslims/ Indians in India should and should not do. I personally have strong reservations against Indian Leftists, but that's not the discussion now.

Have a nice day. :)
-E

Re: # 16

Mani,

How about I write a piece and advise you or Americans to give up neo-liberalism, stop exploiting the Third World and be friendly to rest of the world since we all are conneted? Wouldn't that sound absurd to you?

Another example: since your nukes affect us, as our military men tell us that if we give up, India will crack us in parts, should I start demanding you to give up your nukes? NO. On my part, I have to convince or kill my military men if I am against Pakistan having nukes. So my point is that, let's deal with our problems, ok?

The next thing is, if any fool by chance listens to you, he will be doomed as a listener to a foreigner's advice. This is a universal rule, you should know that!

P.S: Still if you feel threatened, launch an attack! Let's deal with you on the borders.

Thank you.
-E

Re: # 13 (is it Alice?)

I'm not trying to be condescending at all. I genuinely care about what happens in Pakistan, and the situation upsets and frustrates me.

Also - I agree entirely with you on not discounting what's happening. Movements like Yeh Hum Naheen are great, and we need more like them. Same with CHUP! (the blog) that provides a platform for discussion, much like Chowk.

Re: # 12

Anil,

Your problem is that you only see religous fanatics like Masadi and Tahir living in Pakistan.

Well, for your kind information, Pakistanis not only protested against Rushdie or Danish cartoons, they also protested against Iraq War and 9/11. I still remember that civil society in Karachi and Lahore rose up against Iraq War, when nobody in India took out a single rally.

I also remember that most religous parties took out their own rallies, but more than 10,000 progressive people gathered outside Karachi Press Club against Iraq War. They weren't there for religous cause, mind you.

Even in Karachi University, we gathered around 1000 students and yes, when religous guys shouted "Islam Ka Dushman, Amreeka", we shouted: "Insaan ka Dushman, Amreka!". Now this may sound similer to you, but both slogans had different meanings and connotations.

So now, even though I feel threatened of institutionalize religion myself, I still maintain that let my people decide what they want. Don't poke you nose into everything we do or don't do.

Thank you.
-E

Re: # 15

Well respectfully, I don't agree with your view mainly because we live in an inter-connected world. Pakistan is not an individual compartment. What happens there affects the region and the world. Frankly, it's everyone's problem. So I'd suggest that you quickly become more open to friendly advice. But you're entitled to your opinion.

#11

Mani sahib,

"The truth is that one doesn't need to carry a green-and-gold passport to be qualified to comment on the situation there."

The truth is that this is not true!

ok ok, I can give you liberty to comment on Pakistan once or twice. But don't try to play an adviser with us. I am sorry, we don't entertain advisers anyway.

"There are people of other nationalities who care about Pakistan, Pakistanis and what happens to them."

Isn't that called a way to evading from criticism when caught attacking a people's civility in a mild way?

Well, to be frank, we are sick of everyone of you and we don't want to listen to your ill-humoured advices, because we have paid a huge price by listening to your likes in past. Remember the Saudi advice? The American's (threatening) advice?

So our reply is this: SHUT UP!

And to the rightwingers, whereever they are, I say: Don't be so self-rightous, boys. I am still alive!

Thank you.

-E

"I will never give a call like this one to Indians about anything whatsoever"

ok thanks for answering. I disagree entirely. The primary issue in such cases is not who advocates to whom but *what* is being advocated.( otherwise it is to confuse ideas and identity)

It's not that Indian hardliners might argue, Rakesh. They do. The thing is you aren't saying anything that hasn't already been said here time and time again, and rather condescendingly on this issue. I agree that much much more needs to be done in Pakistan vis-a vis protests, but don't discount what is being done, if you haven't heard about it, simply because it hasn't been publicized as much. There is some conscience left in Pakistan. Unfortunately, some of the Indians who are going to appear on this board disagree with that.

Vaisay, are you one of those folks jaisay uss show "The Prisoner" maiN who treat people more like numbers rather than virtual beings? :) "Re #8, #9 and #10"

and I no longer carry a green and gold passport either and haven't for a while - tell me again you're not being the slightest bit condescending.

***

bittersweetmojo: I know this article frustrates you, but there are Indians who care about what's happening to Pakistan and Pakistanis other than those who couldn't give a damn about Pakistanis and think mainly or only in terms of their nation's security.

Keep the marches and protests going. Hopefully they'll grow stronger.

“...when Salman Rushdie writes something controversial or when offensive cartoons are published in Danish newspapers but are curiously silent when the funeral of a religious leader is bombed in sectarian violence. Or when Taliban forces capture Swat and start beheading people for religious insubordination.

Where is the conscience of a nation?....�

In the above you described it well. All acts of others, deemed anti-religion are unconscionable acts, acts of religionists against others are conscionable.

Has this not been the case ever since history of religions is recorded? Institutionalized religions are more visible when they act.

Re: # 8, 9 & 10: The truth is that one doesn't need to carry a green-and-gold passport to be qualified to comment on the situation there. So yes, you do need advice. Now more than ever. Not in a condescending way. There are people of other nationalities who care about Pakistan, Pakistanis and what happens to them. This article is in that shared Subcontinental spirit. (Also, Indian hardliners might argue that the political situation and security situation in Pakistan has a direct impact on India's economy and security.)

Rakesh,

Perhaps some of us have read other articles by you to know that you are from India. From one of your own articles:

In India, we have racial slurs that we use within the borders of our own country. To address our own people. For a long time, any South Indian (regardless of which part of South India he called home) was labelled a, "Kaala Madraasi," meaning black Madrasi. Hailing from Madras myself I’ve heard such abuse hurled at me by Punjabis and Sindhis who revel in their fair-skinned status back home. Racism at its most despicable. Even within our country, we have stereotypes of every single community. And we shamelessly discriminate based on these stereotypes. Each community views itself as inherently superior to the other. Isn’t it pure poetic justice then, I ask, that we get discriminated against when we leave the borders of our country?

But your identity shouldn't detract from this article, even though stuka makes a valid point himself.

"How would you know where I'm from?"

Sorry Mani Saab. I should have asked you where in Lahore you are from? Do you enjoy going to Liberty Market more of Purani Anarkali? Did you attend Dyal Singh College or Government College?

#6
Mani sahib,

Primarily because I have read your previous pieces, I can easily determine where you are from.

yeah, to your title: NO MANI, WE DON'T NEED YOUR ADVICE. THANK YOU.
-E

Pub,

You have a bad habit of not looking at the context of what I write, and ironically your fatal jump-in instinct forces you to post a comment.

Ok, here is my answer. I will never give a call like this one to Indians about anything whatsoever! Not even to Indian commies! How about that?
-E