The Virulet Virus of Wahhabi Intolerance

thank you MR.murad for adding such kind of informative seaction. people of pakistan are really worried about that we built over pakistan on the base of KALMA _E_TOHEED but over country is suffered from such kind of difficulties. i think so these all kind of difficultes are because of this fitna wahabia. Over country are built on "LA ILAHA ILALH "and this fitna strugle to stop them to moving on "MUHAMMADAR RASOOL ALLAH" means it works day and night for finishing the dictom of holy prophet actually these are the enemies of over holy prophet and if we have to save over country from this fitna we have to make over country a true followers of profhet salaah la ho allayewa allahe wasalam.

Readers should know that the Wahhabis/ Salafis started about 1744 was the big daddy of many other extreme Islamic creeds. The Deobandis were started in 1866 by two Wahhabis clerics after the Patna trials (post 1857) and the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikwhan) in Egypt that later assassinated Enver Sadat in 1981 was also its progeny. Osama Bin Laden
is regarded as a follower too. The Indonesian Jemaah Islamya (Bali) is also a Salafi group. The Madrid and London bombers are also considered connected as also Chechnya and the Taliban. So almost wherever we look we see the long shadow of that heretic Abd Al Wahhab. So the world must unite against them and their Saudi and other financiers.

But it has to also be said that religious extremism was not the prerogative of Islam but blossomed whenever bigoted professional priests got their teeth into religion as with the Spanish Inquisition, the murderous Christian Pogroms against Jews andthe witch hunts by America's Puritans.

#146 Posted by muradbaig

[True. The muslims ardently believed that their's was the true path and were very evangilical in Persia. They were however kept in separate cantonments and not encouraged to mix with the persians who were allowed to follow most of their customs. So Persia adopted the schism of Shia into which they retained many of their customs. ]

Is that why the Parsees fled to India? To escape from religious tolerance?

Re: # 127
Mr.Murad! I would like to enlighten about history of kharajies.
After Event of Karbala, yazid malaoun said "i am proud today to get a revenge of my forefather who were killed in Badar,Ohad,khanadaq ...."
Today the people who are disguise themselves in ulema are most dangerous. They are supporting yazid and saying him razi Allah.thier imam is yazid who were accept islam for sake of power and rule,but they did'int accept EMAN.In Qurran Allah mention them with title of "munafqeen".
munafqeens are more worst enemy of Muslim than jews,christian and kafirs.
In Qurran Allah says "They spread violence for sake of imposing islamic "

Dear chowk staff, since Baig sahib is too kind to bother you over trivial matters (and I never am), I take the initiative to recommend inserting the word "Virulent" in the title -- at the expense of the currently ensconced "Virulet" -- a word that remains to be invented except right here on this site.

You're right, I had forgotten. I remember reading/being-taught that when young. I was wondering if there were other sources as well.

Re: # 149
I will look for one but the early accounts of Muhammed's life record how he stopped several times to observe the Arab customs of fasting and resting for long periods of the summer when food was always scarce.

Baig Sahib,

Interesting what you said about Ramazan and Eid being preIslamic customs. Would you have an easily accessible reference for this?

Thank you.

Iran only became Shia in the 16th century when the Safavids forced everyone to convert. Before that, while there were Shias in Iran, it was a Sunni area.

looking forward to your new article murad.

Re: # 145
True. The muslims ardently believed that their's was the true path and were very evangilical in Persia. They were however kept in separate cantonments and not encouraged to mix with the persians who were allowed to follow most of their customs. So Persia adopted the schism of Shia into which they retained many of their customs.

Re: # 144
nb...
Persians were converted to muslaism through invastion/sword and not through sufism etc....they are one of the ardent followers of islam, now...
when you force a dog to eat dal rice for couplr of months, it becomes vegetarian...

The central asian looters ravaged current day pakistan more than any area of India-Pakistan....but still these looters are national icons to Pakistanis...the matter is not that simple....

#142 Thanks for your reflective answer.
Yes, it was easy to revert to earlier faiths in a free society, which these were not; there were heavy penalties including death. Also, once forced into a religion, people tend to try and justify their behaviour, it is difficult to admit their own fear or greed.
You are right that the numbers of Turks and Mughals were not huge, but it was enough to rule India and loot her treasuries (not all Mughals, of course). Why would they not have been enough to convert a few people at a time?
Also once people were converted and made to eat beef, etc, they were no longer welcome back into Hinduism. Don't forget how recent Shuddhi ceremonies are.
My own family has a legend that says lands were taken away from it by the Nawab of Murshidabad after conversion was refused, and I have heard similar histories in other families. This is also recorded in land records of the time, as a cousin of mine found while researching the issue.

Re: # 139

religions preach the faith of their founders but they also carry a huge baggage of customs that are social rather than spiritual. Easter and Christmas were never part of the teachings of Christ while Eid and Ramzan were ancient Arab customs that long predated the advent of Islam. Revenge was also an old Arab custom that has unfortunately become a part of the Muslim tradition worldwide. Revenge had been a necessary survival custom in the precarious times when small tribes of Arab Bedouins had to protect themselves from bigger or more powerful tribes who, without the fear of revenge, could easily loot or molest them.

Life in the desert was always very tenuous and there was fierce competition over the scarce sources of food or water. Individuals could not survive except with the protection of the bonds of blood within their tribes and through alliances with other tribes. This was expressed in the Arab ideology of Muruwah that not only meant manliness, pride and courage but endurance in suffering, protection of the weak, avenging each and every injustice and boldly defying stronger enemies regardless of the consequences. This philosophy also glorified the most generous hospitality to friends and equally intense hatred to enemies.

Oppressors had to therefore be very careful for this well established tribal code made it certain that any injustice would be avenged at some future date. Regardless of power and position no one could ever be absolutely safe from attack, had to tolerate lesser tribes and be very careful not to incite any serious animosity. The American cowboy glorification of revenge arose out of similar compulsions among numerous isolated ranchers who, far from legal remedies, had to protect themselves from their potential oppressors. Paradoxically today we see America’s cowboy spirit pitted against the Muruwah spirit of the Muslim world that views America as an oppr

Re: # 133

Dear nb

We all get more reflective as we get older and religion is part of the process but you can have more than one passion. You can love your wife as well as your dog. My only qualification is in history where I have a MA but my career went into many different things from advertising, marketing, PR and consultant to power companies and I began writing about cars in 1995.

I believe that there is considerable evidence that the sufis had a huge influence in gently converting millions willingly to Islam and will post an article soon on the subject. The numbers of Turks and Mughals were not huge and many Indians willingly converted to the faith of their rulers. I do not believe forcable conversions could have worked. It was too easy to revert to earlier faiths unless there was a conversion of the hearts.

Don't hate wahabis just because they are beautiful

131 nb, Thanks to Chowk my Hindi is better and I am learning Urdu now. ALL my flatmates are B'deshis.

#127 muradbaig

[A revenge philosophy has however plagued Islam from its earliest days. The early Khalifs Umar and Uthman as well as The Prophet’s own son in law Ali were all assassinated by vengeful factions. The predominantly Bedouin Kharajite faction, who were unhappy that Ali had not avenged the assassination of Uthman, mainly caused the split into Sunni and Shia sects that was to cause so much bloodshed over the centuries. These Kharajites had a very narrow and extremist view of the words of the prophet]


There are numerouse examples of your pedophile, serial rapist, serial murderer prophet praising his followers who murdered people who said anything bad about him. He also beheaded 700 unarmed civilians and sold their INNOCENT AND HELPLESS women and children as slaves.

Your prophet, who cooked up the koran to achieve his personal goals, WAS the person who introduced the revenge philosophy by word and by example.

Of course, being a muslim, you'll find a way to obfuscate all of that, including his pedophilia.

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex-cathedra ;-) And while I agree that the Pope (both this one and the last one) are probably well meaning, they are hopelessly conservative and pretty much out of touch with reality.

In any case, I don't see the Holy Inquisition bringing back auto da fes or anyone in power in even heavily catholic countries seriously asking the Pope's views in the process of making basic public policy decisions.

If you look at population growth rates in Italy or Spain, it's clear that either no one is having sex there or they are using birth control. Most American Catholics pretty much ignore the Pope's teachings on many issues. You don't see the Inquisition burning heretics at the stake or local priests flogging people who want to go to a movie on Sundays instead of to church.

Absolutely true that a lunatic fringe like Koresh does exist; also true that not-as-lunatic a (bigger) fringe like Robertson, Falwell and Co also exists in the US; however, their power is definitely waning. In any case, the moderates are fighting back against them; no 'moderate' Muslim is fighting to condemn any whackjob Salafist or Takfirist; or did I miss the huge demonstrations against the suicide bombings in Pakistan?

fuzair: david koresh wasnt the only nut job in christianity. what do you call those who think an ex-ack-ack gunner in the nazi army is somehow the infallible spokesman for God on all matters ranging from birth control to the grant of eternal salvation vs damnation??

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Tahmed,

I wasn't referring to violence or power struggles, I was referring to Islam's unfortunate tendency to continually go back to the starting point (or what some crackpots consider to be the only acceptable form of Islam). The current Salafist movement is simpley the umpteenth version of the same thing.

Christianity, more or less, has managed to outgrow this unfortunate tendency (barring whackjobs like David Koresh). The major difference is that Koresh was clearly a fringe lunatic (despite their occasional unfortunate utterance--e.g., a good wife defers to her husband--the Southern Baptists aren't really in the whackjob category) but the fringe lunatics in Islam set the tone for the entire religion. Thus they are increasingly the mainstream of Islam and no longer the whackjobs.

Wahhabism began as a bunch of tribal lunatics who should have been exterminated by the Ottomans, or latest by the British in the 1920s. The Saudis are now خادم الحرمين الشريÙ?ينand are the Gold Standard for Muslims in Pakistan. Just ask any 'average' Pakistani where do you 'true' Islam in the world today.

++++++++++++++

Baig Sahib,

Islam in Spain was not uniformly tolerant or enlightened. The al Moravids, for example, did much to convince nonMuslims that they might be better off under some of the Christian rulers.

The Moravid ruler, Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, got a fatwa from Al Ghazali and others that the rulers of the taifa kingdoms in Spain were heretics (they apparently were too lax in enforcing Sharia) and should be deposed. The successor dynasty, the al Mohad, were also very orthodox and many nonMuslims left/were-expelled from much of Muslim ruled Spain.

The Golden Age, in the sense of tolerance and creativity, of Muslim rule in Spain was really only until 1000 CE or so; it was all downhill after that.

#130 Posted by nb on March 27, 2009 12:04:06 am


Arjun, it was just the other day, don't you remember it?


yeah...for islamic apologists like mr baig here, the 1500s are "recently" when it comes to the glories of islam...

i'm sure he thinks other events that don't portray islam in such a favorable light are ancient history...even if they occured in the 1800s..

Mr Baig, do you think you may be becoming more religious as you grow older? I ask this politely because these articles are a far cry from motorcycles.
Your article approaches the same issues as many posts daily discussed on chowk, who is the real Muslim? I also have to agree with other interactors about Wahabis not having any support in Pakistan, the PML is hardly Sufi. The foundation of the country is not on Sufi beliefs, and is influenced at least partly by Wahabis. War against people who would appear innocent to you or me seems to be acceptable to a large proportion of the population.
Secondly, who knows what proportion of Indian Muslims' ancestors were converted by Sufism and how many by fear or favour? Historians are unable to agree on this, how did you arrive at a conclusion? (In the meantime, most Pakistanis appear to have arrived at the happy conclusion that they are all descended from Iranians and Turks and are not "sons of the soil" at all.)
In short, you seem to be saying Wahabis are the problem, and a minority at that. Is this really true?

Re: # 118

Dear Minu2009.

I am not a bit hurt by your interact. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and this forum is to debate such burning issues. And sometimes a writer needs to be correced as well.

Re the desecration of Mecca and Medina please read T. E Ravenshaw's detailed accounts in `A memorandum on the Sect of Wehabees' It says in part ..."who also killed many sheikhs and believers who did refused to adopt Wahabeeism"... "They robbed the splendid tombs of the Muhammadan saints and who were interred there and their fanatical zeal did not spare the famous mosque( Kaaba) which they robbed of its immense treasures and costly furniture to which each Mohamedan prince of Europe, Asia and Africa had contributed."

"In 1804 a Wahhabi army again crossed the great desert into the Hijaz and destroyed the ancient cemetary at Madina despoiling the grave of the Prophet Muhammad. In the following year the Wahhabis entered Mecca for the second time and, having massacred those who refused to accept their creed, now claimed it for themselves."

Yes Wahhabism is quite a recent phenomenon.

VRV, I strongly suspect you were fraternising with Bihari Muslims in Kolkata, since they're the only ones who would have been able to speak any Hindi or Urdu. Some of them have lived in Bengal for decades and not learnt any Bengali, but Bengalis don't try to burn down their taxis because it's too much work. Just wondering, how good is your Hindi, is it possible they took advantage of your not knowing Hindi?

Arjun, it was just the other day, don't you remember it??

VRV Garu,

There isn't any thing that distinguishes a Bihari Ms from a Bengali Ms in WB

Dunno how well Bong Muslims get on with Bihari Muslims in WB, possibly you are extrapolating from Calcutta where most Muslims are bilingual. But I have a feeling that rural Bengal is a different ball game.

As a matter of fact most domestic helps in Delhi are Bong Muslims (from either WB or BD), most of them are rather poor with Hindi/Urdu. They usually dress in sarees (unlike North Indian muslim women who mainly wear salwar kameez) and eat fish (whenever they can afford to).

Regards

#127 Posted by muradbaig on March 26, 2009 9:04:30 pm

16th century is recently?

Re: # 110
[It is true that there were extremists before Wahhab but Islam had become a gracious and magnanimous culture in its years of greatness..]

From the 7th to the 16th century Islam was not militant. The history of the crusades shows how magnanymous the Muslim countries were as compared to the rabid Christians.

The Christian conquest of Jerusalem in July 1099 was marked by the slaughter of over 40,000 Jews and Moslems in two days and the crusaders rode their horses through the Temple of Solomon with blood up to their knees. The second Crusade was mainly instigated by the fiery St. Bernard who tirelessly inflamed all Catholics.

By contrast to this fiery spirit, the capture of Jerusalem by Salahuddin in October 1187 was achieved without shedding a drop of blood and Christians were allowed to stay or to leave with their property. Muslim rulers would routinely release Christian prisoners in exchange for a ransom. In August 1191, Richard, of lion hearted fame, however casually slaughtered 2,700 Muslim prisoners who he had been unable to feed. Saracen rulers always honored their treaties but the Christian knights broke theirs as soon as opportunity allowed on the grounds that there was no sanctity to any pledge made to a heathen.

The records of the Crusades clearly show that Islam had been very tolerant till quite recent centuries. Jews and Christians had lived in security under Muslim rulers in Palestine, Spain and other places in total contrast to the bloody massacres of Jews and Muslims by Christians when they conquered Jerusalem and Spain. For 500 years the Moorish rule over Spain was a model of peace and tolerance. The gentle words of Christ had also been superseded by revisionists like the authors of the book of Revelations, composed a century after the crucifixion, that predicted the Antichrist and Great Beast and a warlike triumph of Christianity making the religion vengeful and militant. The Spanish inquisition marks a watermark in religious intolerance.

After the Muslim countries in India and west asia faded before European nations Islam became narrow and bigoted. A revenge philosophy has however plagued Islam from its earliest days. The early Khalifs Umar and Uthman as well as The Prophet’s own son in law Ali were all assassinated by vengeful factions. The predominantly Bedouin Kharajite faction, who were unhappy that Ali had not avenged the assassination of Uthman, mainly caused the split into Sunni and Shia sects that was to cause so much bloodshed over the centuries. These Kharajites had a very narrow and extremist view of the words of the prophet

Majumdar & nb & Dost Mitter,

I agree that older generation Bongs don't speak Hindi but new gen ppl do speak Hindi (TV & Bollywood). I saw similar things in rural Gujarat and Punjab. Contrary to what I thought, older ppl in rural parts of those states don't speak a word of Hindi/Urdu (On way to Attari-Wagah border From Amritsar I tried to speak to some buzurgs who spoke nothing but Punjabi).

nkg,

It'd be proper if you criticise without being vile (Musla thingy).

I wonder why some ppl reject the fact of illegal Bangladeshi
migration to Assam & other parts of India. May be Ummah spirit works.

MJ Akbar on Pakistan

excerpts:

"He said in South Asia, the Indians and the Pakistanis are actually the same people, who had the same strengths and same weaknesses sixty years ago when the partition took place.

"We began the process of creating modern nation states and the most important thing to remember about India and Pakistan is that we were the first nations to achieve freedom from the European colonial rule. So, why it is that Pakistan has gone into one trajectory and India gone on the other?' he asked.

"My understanding is that the idea of India is stronger than the Indian and the idea of Pakistan is weaker than the Pakistani. Pakistan in my view is a medieval idea (where) a faith can be the basis of nationalism," Akbar said.

India, he said, has three equalities and one equity.

'There is political equality, which means one citizen has one vote; religious equality, which means that irrespective of one's religion, one is equal before the Constitution and third and the most important is that gender equality which is a lacking in many Muslim countries,' he said.

'I keep telling people that if you do not have gender equality you will not enter into 19th century. Who is inviting you into the 21st,' he said.

Fourthly, he said, India has economic equity.

'There has never been something called economic equality. But in post-colonial society, if the elimination of poverty is not a primary objective of a state, you would never achieve modernity,' Akbar said, adding that Indian Muslims have enjoyed democracy unlike in many parts of the Muslim world."

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/mar/26/journalist-akbar-says- pak-has-become-a-jelly-state.htm

114 Shoaib,

On Bihari Muslims in WB : There isn't any thing that distinguishes a Bihari Ms from a Bengali Ms in WB (unlike in B'desh where a Bihari Muslim is treated as an a traitor -achoot kind of). To my knowledge most of the Calcuttan Biharis are bilingual and Bong Muslims are at home with Hindi/Urdu as they are with Bengali.

Bihari-Bengali divide among Muslims is not that pronounced in West bengal as it's in B'desh.

On Unplugged debate on Hindi Vs Urdu :

I cant recall when but those who joined the debate would know what we discussed. I for one don't want Urdu to replace any Indian language, much less Hindi. I dont even want the Persian script except as a personal choice of individuals. I know what ur opinion was but cant reprodfuce the link as I dont remeber the date nor the title of the thread BUT those who joined us know what we discussed.

If you want to be forthright, pl give ur opinion now on Hindi Vs Urdu issue. That'd settle this issue for now. If u dont want to state (as u did on Wahabi issue below) then I'd take it as what u wrote then i.e. Urdu was the victimn of politics in India and there's nothing like Hindi language withoput the wealth of Persian vocabulary (sic).

harimau....
hey, a new drama started in Karala...The CPI(M) pressed for release of the islamic/terrorist leader Abdul Madani to collect musla votes...somehow, he betrayed CPI(M)...now, CPI(M) is hell bent on proving that this madani fellow is indeed a terrorist leader.....

Re: # 119
dm...
"I can also say that he was a great proponent of Hindu-Muslim unity...."
specificaly, if India is put under the rule of khalifa...

so what should we conclude from murad beg and mimu6th century?

1. muslaism is peiceful religion ( i.e. when you see any non believer of arabic moon god, cut him/her into pieces...wanna proof? great Mo done that several hundred times in 13 looting expeditions. That is called hallal...if you don't find nion believer, at least kill goat,camel etc....) and with great cultural value system ( screwing 6/7 year old girl when the person is supposed to play the role of grandpa...)

2. abdul wahab was great musla and is great proponent of nonviolence (unlike violent budhists, jains, vaishnavaites....)

3. pakis are piece-loving people and most of them do not follow abdul wahab....

VRV:

I spent some time in Dhaka and, in my experience, Bangladeshis do not speak or support Urdu. This is also true of a few Bangladeshis I know in Canada. I also noted that younger Bangladeshis do indeed have better understanding of Hindi but this is due to the popularity of Indian serials on TV.

mimu2009:

"Do you Maulana Abul kalam Azad ? was he wahabi or not? Once he led the congress and was the educaton minister after India got independence. Have you ever read his book “India Wins Freedom�? have you ever read his magazine Al-hilal ?"

I have been reading a compendium of Maulana Azad's speeches and can say without any reservation that he was a wahabi and more umma-oriented than Jinnah or other proponents of Pakistan. I can also say that he was a great proponent of Hindu-Muslim unity.

Don’t say what you don’t know!
By Salahuddin

NO. perhaps you don't know much about Wahabism.Abdul Wahab never turned Islam(a great religion) on his head.From where you knew that he allowed to defile and destroy the tomb of the Prophet Muhammad at Madina in 1803? it is merely your imagination or you have got wrong information because ground realities are agaisnst what you said. Else this there is another matter to be discussed and that is whether making tombs on graves is permissible in islam or not? did our beloved prophet mohammad PBUH give order to make tomb after his death? If not and surely not then who made that?do u know about that? And why he made ?from where he got the order to make tomb on his grabve while Prophet had strictly warned his followers in this regard.

Abdul WAhab never redifined Islam in a particularly narrow and intolerant way ......how could he do that while he claims to be the true followers of Prophet Mohammad? as you also have admitted in your article that he demanded total surrender to the supreme power Allah, dosallowing any ceremonies ,including ceremonies for marriage or death.... if u term this as wahabism then (forgive me)Prophet Mohammad was the greatest wahabi who did not let anyone do this either in his life or after his death.Because while he was alive he never celebrated his birthday , marriage day or anyother day .isn’t it? If not then you should prove that. And I am sure that you never can prove this because he never did those things so if Wahabi don’t do or accept that then you should blame islam and Prophet(God make us safe) and not Wahabism.

The Islam of the Quran was avowed religion for peace and order but it sufferd…….Islam was and islam is a religion of peace and order , no one can change this .people may go destract but islam can not .you have criticized Quran and Hadith but I think you are not able to read it at least you can read but not correctly ,if can read it correctly then I am sure you cant understand what great message lies in it and this is the reason why you wrote this acticle exposing yourself as a Islamic expert (but unfortunately like many other calimers you also are self styled expert of Islamic knowledge) .

You wrote that the loving Sufi philosophy had been the main agent for conversions to islam…from where you knew this ? can you prove this? If yes then why didn’t give any example ?

You wrote at the beginning of your article that it is hard to understand how a single rough Be……..but in the fifth paragraph you came with the notion that it was power of hatred and you brought some false allegations that carries no reality in it. And further you claimed that Wahab,s vision enshrined in his book Kitab Al-Tauheed ……it seems you have stolen this article from a blind man’s house and without looking into what your hands got you came running to the market to sale that. This is why you said what you don’t know about .

You wrote about Wahabism in the context of India but you ,surely don’t know Indian freedom struggle ,from where it began and who lead it ….in this regard you should study the book “Wahabi Movement in India by Dr.Qiyamuddin� and then you will know what it is all about.

Moreover you also linked Darul Uloom of Deoband with it and called Salfi equivalent to it. But you should know that you don’t know even the A,B,C of these terms and these great institutions. Do you Maulana Abul kalam Azad ? was he wahabi or not? Once he led the congress and was the educaton minister after India got independence. Have you ever read his book “India Wins Freedom�? have you ever read his magazine Al-hilal ?

You also did not leave Wahabism in Pakistan also and commented blindly . you wrote that The good thing is that wahhabism does not have majority support in Pakistan as was clear from the failure of their candidates in the last election. Can you please enlist the name of their condidates in the last election? If not then you I will be sure that you are mentally blind or know nothing but catch whatever passes by you.

You did not stop at this point but went further saying that Deoband’s Darul ulum recently publicly condemned this terrorism and the redefined jihad saying …………………they and all moderate muslims however need to much more to mock the fanatics and make them believe that they are not heroes but heretics to the words fo Muhammad and destined for the hell fires instead of the paradise assured by their fanatic leaders……perhaps you never been in a madrasa and you never peeped in it. You should go there and see with your own eyes what the reality is . you will know that these madrasas are the only place where the sons of poor s and farmers get education because they can’t pay the hefty fee of public schools. They send their children to these madrasas because if they don’t send their children to these madrasas then their children will remain blind, illiterate and would rag picker in future. So you should go to these madrasas to see what is taught thre.

If you have no time to go to these Islamic seminaries then you can read Yoginder sikand’s articles who ,being a non muslims had searched each and every madrasa of India and spent nearly 10 years researching thse Islamic ceminaries and after that he published his book in 2006. you are advised to read that . else this you can read Arshad Amanullah’s articles and interviews on his blogs who himself is a product of madrasas and after that got master degree in journalism from JMI.

At last I apologize if you are hurt by my feedback. But it is my duty ( as a muslim) to take a notice of every evil and no to spread what we are ignorant in a friendly manner.

I have been watching this, and have to speak up. Bengali Muslims do not speak Urdu, by and large. There may be a few who do, but I have known many more who become terribly frustrated in North India because people take for granted that they can read or speak Urdu.
VRV, the movement to make Urdu a state language came from Bihari Muslims resident in West Bengal. I think it was the wrong thing to do by the CPM, appeasement of a small section, but I will not have Bengali Muslims blamed for it.
I see Majumdar has already spoken on this matter.

VRV...
most of the muslas living in rural bengal are like any poor people in that area....most of them are illiterate or semiliterate....so, the question of Urdoo does not come to the picture so far....
a musla living in Nadia is linguisticaly closer or identical to a similar bong in Nadia than a musla living in Birbhum....

Shoaib/VRV Garu,

About 10-15% of the total Muslims in WB (mainly in Calcutta and Asansol-Durgapur belt) are ethnic bhayyas. They are mainly migrants from Bihar and UP and some of them are indeed returnees from Bdesh after they had their b***s whupped by the Bongs for siding with Pakis in 1971. These are the ones who speak Urdu as a mother tongue.

Some ethnic Bengali Muslims both from WB and Bdesh also speak good Hindi/Urdu but then so do many Bong Hindoos (like myself or Nb di). These are mainly "educated" folks and/or probasis (or emigrants)- like Shoaib, Nb, myself

Hope this is helpful

Regards

VRV,

They are WB Muslims.

I hope you realise that ‘WB Muslims’ or Muslims living in WB, can also be Bihari? The same way, say, Sushmita Sen is a Bengali living in Maharshtra. Or, to repeat an exmaple I’ve used earlier, a Mr. Bagri living in Calcutta is still a Marawrai.

So ur claim is prima facie untenable

Look man, this seems to me a futile argument. It really does. Why anyone with Bengali as his mother tongue would ask for Urdu as an official language is beyond me. How does it benefit anyone who’s more proficient in Bengali than any other language?

Even if the poor sod could somehow speak the language, courtesy Bollywood films or whatever, best of luck to him with the Nastaliq script!

There's a Hindu B'deshi from godforsaken village in Sylhet and he speaks good Hindi/Urdu.

So now the Hindu Bengali’s, and Baangaals at that, have also jumped onto the Hindi/Urdu bandwagon, have they?

I’ll tell you what. There’s no Bengali who speaks Bengali or wants to speak the language. It’s all a big sham to fool everybody. They are all closet Hindi/Urdu lovers just waiting to petition govts to introduce languages other than Bengali.

As for the thread on Hindi Vs Urdu debate, I am fairly sure that you rejected that Hindi is a 'language' on its own merits.

Please quote the sentence/para of mine from where you inferred this and we can go on from there.

Shoaib

That poem is from "The Chutney Lyrics" by an anonymous poet.

'O grim and ghastly Mussulman,
Why art thou wailing so?
Is there a pain within thy brain,
Or in thy little toe?
The twilight shades are shutting fast
The golden gates of day,
Then shut up, you, too, your hullabaloo -
Or what's the matter, say?'

That stern and sombre Mussulman,
He heeded not my speech,
But raised again his howl of pain -
A most unearthly screech!
'He dies' - I thought, and forthwith rushed
To aid the wretched man,
When, with a shout, he yell'd - 'Get out!
I'm singing the Koran!'

Re: # 101
VRV...
That has already come back in Pakistan- SWAT etc...

Only mater of concern is, how can we stay away from such glorious period of muslaism and prevent the gracious culture of paedophilia, gang crime, destruction of beautiful architeacture, burning of library etc. reaching India....

#100 muradbaig

[It is true that there were extremists before Wahhab but Islam had become a gracious and magnanimous culture in its years of greatness..]

And which years were these again? Which year to which year exactly?

This would be an interesting revelation.

#70 shoaib_daniyal

[Sigh…

Anyways, I await an answer, a real one too, to why there has been so much mass migration from BD to Assam.]

That WAS a real answer. You wanted to know WHY migration of Bangladeshi Muslims (metastasis) occurs. Okay - see if you get this:

The cause for cancer metastasis is cells breaking away from the original tumor in the first place. This breaking away of a few cells happens because of the breakneck growth of the population of cells compared to the growth rate of the surrounding non-cancerous tissue (just like the disproportionately high growth rate of Muslims compared to non-Muslims in EVERY society in the world). And therefore the next question is - WHY is the Muslim population growth rate so much higher than non-Muslims? Non-cancer cells rely on normal growth rules coded in the DNA for their growth - just like normal human beings (non-Muslims) follow the normal (read human) rules for population growth. But for cancerous cells, the rules coded in the DNA have been damaged, and this leads to uncontrolled proliferation - similarly, in Muslims, human rules have been mutilated and mangled by Islamic rules, and this is the MAIN reason for their disproportionate growth rate compared to the non-Muslim population.

If Bangladeshi Muslim population growth was like normal human population growth, this refugee problem would not have occured.

I hope this explains it?

No?

Oh well....

Re: # 100
murad beg...
yeah, the gracious culture of fcuking 6 year old girl by a 58 year old decoit...

..incl a Chittagong dist fella.

105, Shoaib,

Firstly the WB Muslims demanded Urdu as the II language in Bengal. Now u claim they're Biharis. Nobody from Govt or any other org claimed that. So ur claim is prima facie untenable. They are WB Muslims.

I was in Calcutta and been to some shehrs in WB. FYI, I live with B'deshi Muslims, incl a Chittagong dist. They ALL speak Hindi/Urdu & they are not from big shehrs. There's a Hindu B'deshi from godforsaken village in Sylhet and he speaks good Hindi/Urdu.

So ur argument that Indian Bengali Muslims dont speak Hindi/Urdu is BS. If B'deshis can speak why not Indian Bongs?

As for the thread on Hindi Vs Urdu debate, I am fairly sure that you rejected that Hindi is a 'language' on its own merits.

Never mind we can start that debate right here. Look forward to ur arguments.

Btw, to make it relevant, pl add ur opinions on Wahabism.

I'd tell mine.

Wahabism : Muslims : : Islamists : non-Muslims.

VRV,

. It's wrong to say Biharis demanded it coz we dont call them Biharis in WB as they otherwise do in Bangladesh.

Eh? What’s “wrong�? If you won’t call a Bihari a Bihari, then what the hell will you call him? How does it matter whether he’s in BD, WB or Timbuktu? For example, just because there are Marwaris living in Calcutta doesn’t mean they have become Bengali.

The first preference of urban West Bengali Muslims is Urdu & I know that first hand.

I’ve already explained that. In Calcutta there are a lot of Bihari Ms. I’ve even heard Md. Salim giving speeches in Urdu/Hindi. I’d advise you to go to say, Murshidabad, and find out how many ‘urban West Bengali Muslims’ speak Urdu/Hindi.

P.S: Unless u forget the UP thread where u're rooting for Urdu.

Dude, Urdu ain’t a football team that I’d ‘root’ for it. Do go and reread that thread—it had nothing of a language contest as you make it out to be. If you still are confused with regard to that, we could discuss it again on UP. Coincidently I’ve even mentioned Bihari Ms there.

Shoaib

murad yar, good you found back your password.

at the end of the article you pose following points about pak.
1) wahabis are not many but are far mroe virulent.
2) they are very dagerous to india thanks to oppression of muslims.
3) we should be very concerned and something ought to be done.

imo we in india also have had a large number of folks, esp gulf returnees who have been reintroduced to real islam. offcourse oppression of muslims is closer to home besides falisteen etc. additionally we have political compulsions. the numbers being small is not important as you mention considering potency of virulance. given this, should we not be concerned about this more than giving pakis advice etc?

sanatani:

"They were divided into factions Giani Gurnam Singh for the Jutts and Master Tara Singh for the Khatris and the rest"

Did you mean Giani Kartar Singh?

when it comes to violence tahmed will discover all primitives to be violent. lets see what he comes up with about gracious and magnanimous.

re w. bangalis, i think there is a class distinction. teh well-off and "cultured" bangli mussalman families (jamindaris, preofessional) were very much wangophiles in my experience.

anyways, bangladeshi migration to higher grounds will continue..even assam simply because it is higher ground. indians better stop viewing it as an islami problem (only) and prepare better for it. best negotiate with bangladesh a nepal like status with full interference in its polity and right to work and ration card for bangladeshis ..this will remove the political patronage and exploitation from politicians and islamists and paki jihadi planners.

So you want to bring back the greatness of Islam. Good.

Sorry I was without a password.

The interacts seem to have got onto a tangent about bongs and biharis etc. Let's try to get back to the roots of Islamic terrorism.

It is true that there were extremists before Wahhab but Islam had become a gracious and magnanimous culture in its years of greatness that began to slip seriously after the 17th century until Muslim countries were among the poorest at the turn of thr 20th century.

70, Shoaib,

Whether it's demanded by Biharis or Bongs, the result in WB is that Urdu was given the status of II official language & the demand came from WB Muslims. It's wrong to say Biharis demanded it coz we dont call them Biharis in WB as they otherwise do in Bangladesh. The first preference of urban West Bengali Muslims is Urdu & I know that first hand.

P.S: Unless u forget the UP thread where u're rooting for Urdu.

Re: # 97
nb...
is it for anandabazar?
you will be promped to download active-x player, if you are accessing for the first time...otherwise delete all cookies and temporary files and access the site again...

NKG, please advise from where I can download a Bengali font.
When did I say we were going to do anything? We can only dream, but we do that well.

nb...
please predict, when will we get the next noble lauriate from West Bengal? options
a. within 50 years
b. within 100 years
c. never again

if the present state continues, it will be c.
http://www.anandabazar.com/25edit4.htm

91, Fuzair, Well said.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

fuzair #91 agreed that historically muslims have been prone to conflict. but who has not? all primitive societies are/were like that. so what you say is not quite fair.

sheesh...is wikipedia banned in the land of the pure again? Al-gebra dude's book was called "on the calculation with hindu numerals...fer crissakes...

Al-KhwÄ?rizmÄ«

His book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals written about 825, was principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration in the Middle-East and then Europe. This book also translated into Latin in the twelfth century, as Algoritmi de numero Indorum. From the name of the author, rendered in Latin as algoritmi, originated the term algorithm.

Algebra was probably 'invented' by Babylonians or ancient Hindus but the 'father' of modern algebra is al Khwarizmi--not an Arab but a Persian.

The last siege of vienna by the Turks was in 1683 and marked the end of the Ottoman threat to Europe.

Islam has always been marked by violent, fundamentalist movements that attempt to bring it back to its 'true' form and strip out all heretical innovations/practices that have crept in. This far predates Wahhab; for example, the al Moravids in Spain were alsmost as nasty as the Wahhabis. Why the Wahhabis gained so much ground is that they conquered Mecca and Medina and then found oil.

Remember, bida is held in horror by all true Muslims.

Re: # 85
Sanatani...
"Thank you for being understanding about the fact that I at times get sentimental and start abusing Bongs...."

Bongs inherited best of modern skillset from Brits. So, they should have shown much more responsibility towards rest of India. Their stupidity has not only put West Bengal into turmoil, it is major source of internal security problem for entire India. Bongs deservs far severe (like Siv sena style...) action....It is time for you guys to forget that Tagore, Ramakrishna/Vivekananda, Bankimbabu were bongs...

Re: # 86
nb...
what vision?
Have you visited calcutta university or JU campus, lately? Anarchy and lack of commitment is what, you can say,describes about the state of campus....
Calcutta University is now a teacher producing insititute.....

Re: # 81
Majumder,Shoaib....
"Killing Bong Ms suited no one and cultivating them benefited quite a few who were largely not Bong Ms...."

This is very much incorrect....Dr. Roy would not have to bother about refugee camps in Hizlee or in Dandakaranya, if the muslas were purged (not necesarily through killing) properly....


Bangladeshi muslas were at the bottom of skill level ( administrative, educational etc...) and would have f***ed up more, if they were pushed with more semi skilled people......

The most prominent living rascal from EB, is Dr. Amartya Sen.

oops sorry "I will say as forcefully the same thing" to read

I will as forcefully say the same thing

Sanatani

I disagree with the visionless bit, Maj. Bengalis have a lot of visions...just not willing to put in the elbow grease to make it possible. Myself included.

Majumdar da,

Thank you for being understanding about the fact that I at times get sentimental and start abusing Bongs.

But after I had read Bengalvoice.com I went into depression. On 1 side there is undiluted admiration and respect for Dr Shyama Babu and Ashutosh Lahiri and then these swine since the 1930's.

I do not mean ill towards the Bengali Hindus and when the inevitable happens do not worry I shall repay the interest on the debts of my forefathers by sheltering as many bong/asomiya Hindu families in my house as my purse allows the same way many of us were housed by people we did not even know as feloow Hindus and the way Pittabhai Sitaramayya forcefully called against calling us Sharanarthis I will say as forcefully the same thing.

Sanatani

Re: # 76

We did squat sh***t. The Khalsaji's did everything they were the lions and we were the hyenas and vultures.

Having said that the UP and Biharis esp in the rural areas were much more effective than we Punjabi Hindus were. the reason is not far to seek.

The Hindu Mahasabha was lead by Bhaijanji a great admirer of Islam and he was a Kashmiri Brahmin. The Urban Hindus were congressis and were totally enamoured of Madar Das see the movie Pinjar (BTW I think I know the family upon who this is loosely based) How?? Each of my relatives families and since we are talking about as distant as my grandfathers 3rd cousins it woiuld mean say 50 odd families had an item like that guy who plays Kharbandas son. In fact they would infuriate me so much that I used to be literally in tears when they would talk about their "Mahatmaji" and Congress party and none of the HM/RSS/Jan Sanghi elders would retaliate.

To cut a long story short only the kattar anti congressi Hindus fought say 10% of the urban Hindus while the Sikhs to a man. In many villages the Khalsaji's would form a rearguard that would invoke Akali Phoola Singh (the original Akali and that meant death or victory never surrender) and hold a muslai force 20-30 times their size and with very rare exceptions were always killed to a man but ensure that the other Hindus and Sikhs get away.

One very old member of the HM in Kanpur told me convert every Hindu into a Sikh tell him Khalsa or death.

To this I say "Raj Karega Khalsa Haki rahe na koi Jo bole So Nihal Sat Sri Akal"

Sanatani

Excellent propaganda and stifling debate here! Wonderful discussions! Hijacking the basic idea!

Re: # 79
Majumder....
Brit's bamboo was there for everyone; may not be equaly brutal...
The second generation political leaders (after WC Bannerjee and Bipin Chandra Pal etc...) had created a mess for us. God knows, if the partition was managed better way, we would have succeeded like Punjab...I know, you may like to bring the issue of post partition musla migration into West Bengal and Assam. Once the human barrier would have been successfully erected, that would have solved the current day problem (in WB and ASSAM) as welll.

Shoaib,

Killing Bong Ms suited no one and cultivating them benefited quite a few who were largely not Bong Ms.

You are absolutely right. But there will be long-term consequences for Bong Hindoos. (Especially as half of BD wud be under water in a couple of decades.) Hopefully Bong and Asamese Hindoos will not blame others for their own choices and resulting plight (as and when that happens).

How this has benefited the B Ms (economically, politically etc) is open for all to see.

No, it has not. But it cud have been worse.

Regards

Re: # 76

Majumdarda

It is wrong to say that Bangladeshis didnt have a choice

That was not what I meant. I meant that the fact that they chose partition was mind-boggling. Of course, after the much vaunted Pakistan was displayed, there was a realisation among Bong M's that partition would screw them. Hence the last minutes scramble for an independent Bengal. But ultimately they went with the Pakistanis and faced the consequences.

Bong Muslims can thank their stars that their Hindoo counterparts didnt do in Bengal and Assam in 1947 what Sanatani bhai and his fellow Punjoo Sikhs/Hindoos did in Punjab

I'm afraid it’s not as simple as that. Maybe an analysis that goes beyond numbers would do better. Killing Bong Ms suited no one and cultivating them benefited quite a few who were largely not Bong Ms. How this has benefited the B Ms (economically, politically etc) is open for all to see.

Shoaib

Nkg moshai,

within a century (1820-1920), what bongs achieved is no mean task.

You have inadvertently given the answer to the conundrum. In 1820-1920, the Brit's bamboo was working in Bengal. After 1947, the Bong got the chance to rule himself and the results are for everyone to see. The state that was #1 or close to it in '47 is now just about ahead of Bihar or Orissa.

Regards

Re: # 76
Majumder....
"Having said, that both BD and WB wud still have been f***ed post Partition becuase Bongs (irrespective of whether they are Hindoos/Muslims) are basically a lazy, visionless people. But at least Bong Hindoos who want to achieve something in life cud have emigrated elsewhere in India and made something out of themselves...."

This is over simplification...within a century (1820-1920), what bongs achieved is no mean task. British rule spread out everywhere during that period (pre WWII, Brits used to rule 1/3rd of the world). How many areas in British colony showed such remarkable progress in the field of art, literature, science and industry like WB? Very rare. Giving enough credit to brits, we should share it with people like Vidyasagar, Vivekananda, Asutosh Mukherjee, M L Sirkar, Jadunath Sirkar, Abaninindranath, Sister Nivedita, J C Bose... etc....in their respective field. Frankly speaking, the political fragmentation was the main reason behind the problem of Assam and specialy West Bengal....

Re: # 75
shoaib....
"To think that the BDesis went willingly into Partition is mind boggling?"
what is mind boggling in this?
The concept of Pakistan was formulated in Dacca and muslas living in bengal (both east and west) were very much part of it....the first genocide, supporting separate country for muslas, started in Calcutta (not in Bihar or anywhere in current day Pakistan. 1905 was the trigger point for east bengali muslas).....
the point is, when the bangals were being purged in east pakistan, muslas should have been purged here in west bengal. Somhow, our beloved leader "Subhas Chandra Bose" was busy fighting in Burma etc. etc....influx of refugees and we turned the most advanced city of Asia (Calcutta) into a hell...

Yeh, Jinnah wanted to include whole lot of stuff into Pakistan...but, the demography, workforce etc. does not speak for him, at least related to Calcutta.....I have read somewhere that, he demamded river Ganga should be used as border between East pakistan and India....that much!!!!....

Shoaib,

To think that the BDesis went willingly into Partition is mind boggling

It is wrong to say that Bangladeshis didnt have a choice. Bengal Assembly could have chosen to join the Constt Assembly of India rather than sit out. In that case the Partition of Bengal wudnt have happened.

Yes, I am aware that EB was a rural slum but the East Bongs shud have known that. Bong Muslims can thank their stars that their Hindoo counterparts didnt do in Bengal and Assam in 1947 what Sanatani bhai and his fellow Punjoo Sikhs/Hindoos did in Punjab. A simple arithmetic- the number of Bong speaking Muslims in India vis-a-vis Bong Hindoos in BD wud suffice to show what this wud have meant.

Having said, that both BD and WB wud still have been f***ed post Partition becuase Bongs (irrespective of whether they are Hindoos/Muslims) are basically a lazy, visionless people. But at least Bong Hindoos who want to achieve something in life cud have emigrated elsewhere in India and made something out of themselves.

Regards

Majumdarda

Becuase they failed to see what would happen to them in East Pak post 1947 and act accordingly.

That goes for most Bengalis, irrespective of which side of the border that they come from or their religious affiliations.

To think that the BDesis went willingly into Partition is mind boggling (and to some extent they didn’t). Ayesha Jalala calls the country (yes the whole country) a 'rural slum', if I remember correctly.

As you would be happy to know, Jinnah was right here. EB without Calcutta (and W Bengal) was a dead duck. Too bad that didn't stop him or anybody else, for that matter.

Shoaib

Majumdarda

Because Assam has a lot more cultivable land than BD.

If that is so then that should mean that Assam would be richer than BD. I would say that’s a fair enough assumption in an agricultural society.

Is that so?

Also, do note that the above is not a rhetorical or sarcastic Q.

Shoaib

Shoaib,

to why there has been so much mass migration from BD to Assam.

Because Assam has a lot more cultivable land than BD.

My question to you was why are EB Hs to blame for what happened in 1947?

Becuase they failed to see what would happen to them in East Pak post 1947 and act accordingly.

Regards

Re: # 71
Sanatani...
hey, this is kind of untold story to me...that fellow has not said something like this....

Ok I will tell you how the Sardars are responsible for the mess.

When the EB Hindus reached Kolkatta the Sikhs, Hindu Mahasabha and RSS were in the forefront of helping them as opposed to the congress which was more interested in giving them platitudes and sermons to follow Maulana G's way.

Ok the Sardars being Sardars wer very practical they would collect 40-40 Hindu heads of families and ask how long the yplanned to stay in the camp and if they got a pathetic answer they would start slapping and abusing them after that they would herd entire families in trucks handing a weapon to each able bodied male with threats of instant retribution in case of any failure to use them. They would then reach a muslai locality and do chak de phatte on them seeing them the EB Hindus would join in and lo behold you had 50 families resettled.

The EB Hindus especially the ones coming from ther more affected areas on seeing this decided to convert in large numbers into the Khalsa.

Now what did the bloody Sardars do when they heard this. They were divided into factions Giani Gurnam Singh for the Jutts and Master Tara Singh for the Khatris and the rest. Both feared that if so many Bongs became Khalsa they would favour the other i.e. the Giani though that since the Master represented the Bhapas (term for non Jutt) the Bongs would favour the Master. The Master thought that since the Bongs were becoming Khalsa impressed by the valour of the Sikhs and the Jutts were by far the most valiant fighters in all of India (having the bravery of a Rajput, the killer instinct of a Maratha, the never say die spirit of the Gurkha and well the religous fanaticism of a Jutt Sikh) they would favour the Giani.

So as a result both dithered and managed to stave of this conversion.

Resultantly these Hindus lost their fighting spirit the commie/congress/socialist propaganda had its affect and as a result we will lose Bengal and North East to the Muslai.

BLOODY SARDARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAVING SAID THAT BLOODY MOTHERFUCKER HINDUS @#(*&$&^^$^(+`'

Sanatani

#56 Ajeya,

Sigh…

Anyways, I await an answer, a real one too, to why there has been so much mass migration from BD to Assam.

VRV,

I based this observation on the basis of their insistence of having Urdu as the II oficial language in West Bengal. Whereas Bangladeshis gave life & fought to have Bengali as their lingua franca, India Bengalis fought to have Urdu as the II official language in West Bengal.

This fact is, to the best of my knowledge, wrong. You are getting confused with Bihari Ms, which Calcutta is filled with. In fact, if you meet a M in Cal there are more chances of him being a Bihari than a Bong.

I have my village in a district called Birbhum and nobody there knows a shred of Hindi/Urdu. Damn, they even speak Bengali in a weird sing-song way, quite different from Calcutta Bengali.

Majumdarda

VRV garu has answered the question raised in #46

Actually, NKG himself answered that question as to who is a RaRhi. My question to you was why are EB Hs to blame for what happened in 1947?

Shoaib

Re: # 67
Sanatani,Majumder....
There was/is no Khalsa type body for Bongs...

Sanatani...
Our family priest worked with British Indian Armed forces during WWII (that time he was in his early 20s). He used to extol role of Sardars (who were in Kolkata) during Direct Action Days...

Shoaib,

VRV garu has answered the question raised in #46.

Sanatani bhai/Nkg moshai,

The reason why Bengal and Assam did not follow Punjab is very different. The Hindoos were badly splintered between INC, FB, HM and SCF with some East Bong landlords also later siding with AIML. Besides you had national level traitors like Maulana G weakening the Hindoo cause.

Regards

Re: # 62
Sanatani....
You are right. But how many people from West Bengal supported Shyama Prasad Mukherjee?
The grand old dady of CPI was Mr. Hiren Mukherjee ( all Mukherjees are basicaly from West Bengal and not migrant from East Bengal)....We should not blame East Bengal migrants squarely for this mess. We have fair share of it....

Sorry I have got the answer!It shows second last interact.

I am amazed that my interact is not shown on right side of Chowk's latest ineracts bar. Is there any reason?

religious fanaticism is a curse and it did not start with Wahabi ideas, it was well before there. Kharjis were the fristextremists in Islam and they were dealt with strong power as they believed in violence only. The present issue gets complicated and gets support of locals as the US involvement makes it US and THEm issue. If the local auhtorities are given free hand without foreign interference then there are chances of gradual success and alternative is complete foreign operation. This seems feasible but tis consequences can be extremely dangerous and then nothing will be safe in the region as over 70 million youth willl be on rampage ...not on the name of religion but persoanl vendettas . The peace in Pakistan is peace of world and as some Indians are thinking that they can do surgical strikes, they should see that htese tactics have already failed in Iraq, Afghanistan , and in their own backyard, Mizoram, Meghaliya, Naxalites, kashmir and many many other examples. Mere Pakistan bashing or raising slogans of doing more will not solve the issue. failure of Western forces in afghanistan can not be blamed on Pakistan. Although it is favorite right now!

Re: # 47

It is like this when the EB Hindus came to India they played into the hands of the commies rejecting Dr Shyama Babu. As they were phukras themselves and being the scum that they were and are they refused to do an exchange of population and then bought the commie arguement that all this happened due to exploitation. Massive money came from China and Russia so that these guys could be turned into foot soldiers of commies. (This is a hypothesis but appears logical) they folowed the path shown by China to weaken India (remember after the commie split in 1964 the majority went with marxus) they encouraged large scale infiltration in Bangla (this was after the formation of the Bengal Congress in 1966) turned the anger of the people against the landlords and capitalists destroyed industry thereby encouraging poverty and more and more recruits for naxalism maoism and marxism and this endless cycle coninues to this day.

Also actually for all this the Sardars are to blame.

this story later.

Sanatani

Further to 59,

I based this observation on the basis of their insistence of having Urdu as the II oficial language in West Bengal. Whereas Bangldeshis gave life & fought to have Bengali as their lingua franca, India Bengalis fought to have Urdu as the II official language in West Bengal.

Similarly Bangladeshi Muslims migrated to India (Assam) raised the flag of Pakistan i/o Bangladesh. Pakistan & Islam are inseparable and Indian Muslims perforce identify themselves with that. Btw, we're all proved right when Musharraf spoke on those lines in Dehli tho Madani countered him (We have to agree that we have both types of Indians amidst us).

In sum, outlooks of Indian Bong Muslims and Bangladeshi Muslims are diff.

Jang, Dhaka's cabs are few but top-class, not like our yellow Ambassadors.

*I must admit that Bong Muslims (mostly) in Bangladesh are more Bengali than Hindus but Indian Bong Muslims (mostly) are Islamists like typical Islamist Pakistanis.

..referring to your poser to ...

Shoaib, I may not be referring to poser to Majumdar.

It's contextual to refer to the hard facts and try to explain how Islam enters as the sycretic brand of sufism and morphs in to political assertion when in 20-40% and turn aggressive when the population becomes 60% and gets Wahabi when it becomes 95% and above.

We have the live example of how north-west India was lost to puritanical Islam and the corrosion started in eastern India and accentuated by the migration from Bangladesh*. Islam wont allow the luxury of free spirit and thought as it otherwise gets it in other cultures.

*I must admit that Bong Muslims in Bangladesh are more Bengali than Hindus but Indian Bong Muslims are nowhere more Islami like Pakistanis.

I also admit that you are nowhere near that sterotype Islamist. You are just like any middle class Indian. There're millions like you.

#55 shoaib_daniyal

[In other words I'm asking as to why there was this migration from Bangladesh to W Bengal and Assam? ]

To understand that, you can read about the mechanism by which cancer spreads. It's called metastasis.

Cancer cells kill other cells by literally crowding them out - thus they take over one local area, forming a tumor. After that, a small number of cells from within the tumor gets into the bloodstream and navigate to near and distant parts of the body, to form new colonies. This is exactly like Bangladeshi refugees moving to Assam, West Bengal and Mumbai. Once metastasized, they multiply profusely and crowd out the pre-existing local cells, redirecting nutrients towards themselves, and killing the local cells by crowding them out physically and starving them.

VRV,

You still didn't answer my question, sir. Why was this math lesson addressed to me? If this is related to my Q to Majumdarda then please do read the Q again.

Shoaib, I have visited Bangladesh and they're worse than us.

Yes, they are poorer than India but are they worse than Assam is the question I'm asking. In other words I'm asking as to why there was this migration from Bangladesh to W Bengal and Assam?

daniyal and other bongs..here is an interesting article by kaplan.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200804/kolkata

"Arriving in Calcutta by bus from Dhaka, the capital of next-door Bangladesh, is like arriving in West Berlin from East Berlin during the Cold War—a trip I made several times. Grayness is left behind. Instead of the rusted signs of Dhaka, giant, swanky billboards advertising global products glow in the night like back-lit computer screens."


assam actually has considerable economic attraction thanks to ONGC not just form bangladesh but rest of indian.

U may be a nice liberal boy but this's nothing personal.

Shoaib, I have visited Bangladesh and they're worse than us. Moreover the money earned in India is more in Takas when sent thru money changers, which happens from Bombay and Dehli Bangladeshis.

This is nota mere argument but a ground reality.

Bangladesh official stats for 1981, 1991, 2001

Hindus were

12.13% (1981)
10.52% (1991)
9.34% (2001)

How scary?

I guess u know how it's widening in West Bengal, some of which are Muslim majority by now. First they wanted separate zameen, nation in the name of Islam and now invade our country as economic migrants? They may be economic immigrants but the II or III generation may raise the flag of Islam or at least separate Islamic party as we see now in Assam (as numerical majority it's be impossible to control as we do in Kashmir Valley now).

As for the thread following the predictable route, it has to unless Bhindus want to dismember as it happened predictably in north-west India and now happening in south-east India.

VRV,

Yes, I have heard this argument many times before and this thread would, in all probabilty, take a very predictable route.

However, why was this math lesson addresed to me?

Not to mention the tipping scales of pro-Muslim demography in Assam, courtesy Bangladesh. Gurgaon I can understand, but why is there so much immigration to Assam. Are economic condtions much better in Assam than in B'desh?

Shoaib, Lets do a small math for Bengal.

1951 – Bengal population – 66. 743 mio (West Bengal and Bangladesh)

Hindu – 43.00%
Muslim – 55.51%

2001 – Bengal Population – 204. 027 mio (West Bengal and Bangladesh)

Hindu – 34.56%
Muslim – 64.36%

Not to mention the tipping scales of pro-Muslim demography in Assam, courtesy Bangladesh. Are Muslims out breeding Hindus or Hindus follow (mostly) follow family planning or there're mass conversions?

The talk of secularism, liberalism are all nice but on ground Islam is conquering India slowly but surely.

Lets take Punjab. They're known to worship peers and sufis. Now what's the situation there? First they kicked out non-Muslims and now they're kicking the butts of moderate Muslims, incl Shias.

That's the worst fear of Indians abt Wahabism or pure form of Islam. It comes in stages. Unless we know it, it'd be the story of frog in the hot water.

#41 jang

[hi silent... why not india? its closer nationality, its got plenty muslims. why go malaysia or dubai?]

Because silentvoice is a musla. Malayasia is one of the worst models to emulate. Chinese (buddhists) and Indians (Hindus) built up their economy. The indigenous people converted to musla-ism and robbed everything from them. Today the Chinese and Indians are treated like 2nd class citizens, with sharia courts deciding any cases between muslas and non-muslas, and the best jobs going to the indigenous people, who HAVE to be Muslas to get the benefits given to indigenous people.

Muslas will always be muslas, and do musla-giri wherever they go. The good news is that as muslas spread like cancer to other parts of the world, the West, the Russians and the Chinese are coming more and more in conflict with muslas. Luckily for us sacred-cow-like Hindus, they will not tolerate musla-giri in their countries.

Re: # 46
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rarh_region

Majumdarda,

East Bong Hindoos betrayed the Hindoo cause in 1947 and got properly shafted in turn.

How did EB Hinuds betray anyone? A bit of an expansion would be nice, sir.

Shoaib

Nkg,

What is the difference between a Rarhi and a Bangaal? Are only Dhakaite migrants called the latter or all E Bengali refugees?

Shoaib

Sanatani, Majumder...
If you like to abuse someone for high musla population in Bengal and Assam, it should be the Bongs of West Bengal ( myself a Rarhi)....If we Rarhis claim to initiate the early part of social, cultural and educational reform in Bengal ( which later spread, to some extent, to entire India), the people of east bengal had shown better result there after...I believe, people of West Bengal should have taken more active role in eradicating musla menace from Indian Bengal. We simply taunted East Bengalis (Bangals) rather than helping them....Subhash Bose should be abused more than people like Dr. Bidhan Chandra Roy....

Silent...
Paki muslas are slave to arab beduins. Why they will admire Malay muslas? Malay muslas are slave to the same arab masters.....pedigree wise, Paki muslas are more musla than malay muslas......

Sanatani bhai,

Re: 43

Bitter, but true. East Bong Hindoos betrayed the Hindoo cause in 1947 and got properly shafted in turn.

Regards

Re: # 27

You seem to be another East Bangali ma888ch**d. You scum swines have been the factor that will eventually see Bengal and the North East fall to the evil muslais.

This time we should ensure that no Bengali Hindu gets refuge in India.

Sanatani

Re: # 41

When Pak is not-India and pakis not-Indians what makes you think Pak will have any reason to admire India.

Sanatani

hi silent... why not india? its closer nationality, its got plenty muslims. why go malaysia or dubai? is it because india is too wahabi or not rich or not liberal?

39 # silentvoice,

Pak's admiration for KSA is on 3 counts.

a. It's the custodian of holy mosques
b. Leading Sunni nation
c. Oil and Dollar rich country

Visits of King Aziz to Pakistan would testify as to how Pak establishment loves KSA. Pakistan wouldn't show similar admiration for an Yemeni or a Somali King. Malaysians wont qualify for your admiration as they are not Noorish as Arab-Perso Pakistanis. No?

Hi Murad,

Thanks for excellent , well researched article. Its very much true that one major problem of current problems in Pakistan is inclination towards Saudi since Zia's time. Instead of hypocrites like Saudi , it would have been much better if we would have inclined towards Malaysia , Dubai or some other progressive nation. These nations have built wealth and economy by being liberal yet preserved there religion in there own personal lives unlike the Saudi nation where monarchy is plundering trillions of petro dollars of there nation and turning there nation into sex starved gays apart from hypocrites.

#27 I agree. Nkg, maybe you should post more in Bengali, you're so much more polite!

Re: # 33
jang...
it is not anti-hindu...it is usual piece of crap, which people did not like....

"Deoband’s Dar ul Ulum, followed by a college of 6,000 Indian Mullahs, recently publicly condemned this terrorism and the redefined Jihad saying that the killing women, children and Muslims is un Islamic. It said…�Islam rejects all kinds of injustice, violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder in any form.�


Wahabis have no problem with this statement. "all kinds of injustice, violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder in any form" could be a reference equally to the US actions in Iraq and elsewhere or the Indian army's actions in Kashmir. Baig saheb, one has to notice the omission as much as commission, one should notice that the ulema did not specifically mentioned any Muslims for an act of terrorism.

Good to read but author isn't successful in highlighting the reasons for the sustenance of that ideology.

In Arabia, they found al-Sauds and in India they're surrounded by native Hindu culture and religion that's pluralistic & pantheistic respectively.

In Pakistan there's no bar on the growth of this ideology as military structure and militaristic people embraced it (and are still embracing to become a full-blown Wahabi mulk).

In conclusion it's clear that the Wahabism remain a virus and adapt according to the host society/country to remain and grow.

I find shades of similarity of Muhammed's history in the emergence of Wahabism.

Murad A Baig has enlighten the reality that has been ignored intentionally or unintentionally.
Wahabism is a core of terrorism in the world.
I think international community also aware about wheres all resources are coming to promote wahabism in the world,but they intentionally ignoring that because they want to exploit.
Mr. Murad! You did,int mentioned Lawrence of arabia was one who did promote and develop Wahabism.
wise people always learn from History.

maybe i should read this article..hindoos seem all upset. is it anti-hindoo?

#31 by akcheema

Sorry cheema bhai, wrong expression at the wrong place :-(

Re: # 28/29/30; harish

it is not I who needs to 'figure' it out ... besides, I fear majumdar subscribes to the pov described in nkg's post below ... (I mean good riddance and all that)

#26 by akcheema

Cheema bhai, Gandhi turned the fierce Pushtuns into non-violent Satyagrahis while Jinnah turned the relatively sober Punjabis and UP/Bihar-walas into beasts. Go figure!

#26 by akcheema

Cheema bhai, Gandhi turned the fierce Pushtuns into non-violent Satyagrahis while Jinnah turned the relatively sober Punjabis and UP/Bihar-walas into beasts. Go figure!

#26 by akcheema

Cheema bhai, Gandhi turned the fierce Pushtuns into non-violent Satyagrahis while Jinnah turned the relatively sober Punjabis and UP/Bihar-walas into beasts. Go figure!

Re: # 25
majumder....
apnar rag ekhono gelo na!!!! purba banger lokeder prathamik, durdashar janyo aro anek namdhanya culprit achhen.....gandhi onader madhyey ekjona.......ei moplah etc...jar janya apni gandhi ke doshi karen, ei sab gandhi chharai hoito hoto...and might be in bigger scale...

majumdar ... be fair sir

under Gandhian philosophy, Bacha Khan's pakhtoon land was and remained peaceful throughout the socalled independence movement

and don't just equate the 'tallytubbies' with the deobandis ... they may be deobandis (mostly) but that doesn't mean very much ... there inspiration doesn't come from deoband but some place else

Nkg moshai,

so, Gandhi is real supporter of real/violent islam...

Yes, he was. The Granddaddy of the Taliban.

Regards

majumder....so, Gandhi is real supporter of real/violent islam...

Re: # 22

Majumdar, say hello to montu miaN.

Regurrrs!

Beej bhayya,

Re: 21

Much the same can be said about the (alleged) freedom movement led by the Gandhoo.

Regards

[The Jihads tried but failed to play a major role in 1857 even though their cadres were a constant irritation to the British.]

If I remember my William Dalrymple right, toward the end of the 1857 mutiny/insurrection/independence-struggle (take your pick!) the jihadis accounted for nearly a quarter of the forces that were fighting against the British "on behalf of the khilafat". The philosophy and techniques used by those jihadis were not too much different from those of the present day jihadis in the subcontinent. :((

#11 by goonga

Harish Bhai, how ar eyou doing?
I am really disappointed that you perhaps you never clicked on my nick :(

Hi yaar Goonga, don't see you too often here? What's going on?

Never meant to ignore you, so sorry if it came across that way :-)

#11 by goonga

Harish Bhai, how ar eyou doing?
I am really disappointed that you perhaps you never clicked on my nick :(

Hi yaar Goonga, don't see you too often here? What's going on?

Never meant to ignore you, so sorry if it came across that way :-)

#11 by goonga

Harish Bhai, how ar eyou doing?
I am really disappointed that you perhaps you never clicked on my nick :(

Hi yaar Goonga, don't see you too often here? What's going on?

Never meant to ignore you, so sorry if it came across that way :-)

I had just finished reading " The Last Mughal" by William Dalrymple, he mentions of a new brand of Islam taking shape in those days which abhored interacting with Non-Muslims during that time.He named them as wahabis.Though in minority this brand has grown in strength and the result is "Taliban" in front of us. Recent bombing of Khushal Khan Museleoum in Nowshera is another example. The point to ponder is how to deal with this lot, since they have grown in strength in light of breakdown of Institutions.
Merely thinking that they have been rejected in elections would not serve the purpose, since His highness " sufi Muhammad" has elaborated recently that he doesnot consider elections Islamic!!!

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nkg,

of course they did not invent.
Later, Arab and Muslim mathematicians developed algebraic methods to a much higher degree of sophistication. Wiki

Re: # 13
goonga...
trace little bit backward...you will find these so called "Islamic scholars" learned the translated work of Boudhayana, Brahmagupta and Aryabhatta, and when that was passed to europe, the arabs claimed these work as their own (including number system and positive negative number scheame)....

Muḥammad ibn MÅ«sÄ? al-KhwÄ?rizmÄ« (Arabic: محمد بن موسى الخوارزمي) was a Persian mathematician, astronomer, astrologer and geographer. He was born around 780 in KhwÄ?rizm (now Khiva, Uzbekistan) and died around 850. He worked most of his life as a scholar in the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.

His Algebra was the first book on the systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations. Consequently he is considered to be the father of algebra, a title he shares with Diophantus. Latin translations of his Arithmetic, on the Indian numerals, introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world in the 12th century. He revised and updated Ptolemy's Geography as well as writing several works on astronomy and astrology.

His contributions not only made a great impact on mathematics, but on language as well. The word algebra is derived from al-jabr, one of the two operations used to solve quadratic equations, as described in his book. The words algorism and algorithm stem from algoritmi, the Latinization of his name. His name is also the origin of the Spanish word guarismo and of the Portuguese word algarismo, both meaning digit.

Re: # 9
kedar...
"redefined jihad..."
yeah man, the jihad has to be redefined, when muslas live in non-musla majority areas....breed rapidly and use bluffing to dupe people...and then when the number game favours muslas, change the definitions again....and the vote baniks (traders) of india will sell this to the people in the name of secularism....

Re#4, [who invented algebra?]

Harish Bhai, how ar eyou doing?
I am really disappointed that you perhaps you never clicked on my nick :(

Re#1,
Aaarrrjj,

The good thing is that wahhabism does NOT have majority support in Pakistan as was clear from the failure of their candidates in the last elections.

Dont you think that missing NOT must be typo mistake?
But how could you think? you are dumb arj.

"even though the loving Sufi philosophy had been the main agent for conversions to Islam"

huh! You are diminishing the role of Early Arab khalifs, turks and others by saying that!

"followed by a college of 6,000 Indian Mullahs, recently publicly condemned this terrorism and the redefined Jihad saying that the killing women, children and Muslims is un Islamic."

So Hindu men is a fair game!!

May be VHP should target these 6000 Mullah next time rather than 2000 innocents.

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Baig sahib, an interesting read! It is likely true that vast number of Muslim populations (and Muslim rulers generally) have lived lives of tolerance and practiced the same regarding other belief systems, irrespective of whatever the occasional Mullahs may have taught them while encouraging opposite tendencies.

I do have a question for you, though. Among the Mughal rulers, Aurangzeb has generally a reputation for having been highly intolerant of Hindus (and even Shias). He lived 1658 - 1707, which clearly preceded the advent of Wahabiism (looking at the timeline you state). Therefore, could there be other elements and factors in play which could have promoted intolerance and allowed Wahabiism to gain ground just the way intolerance gained ground during Aurangzeb's reign?!

"It is difficult to understand how a single rough Bedouin from Nejd, one of the most impoverished areas of central Arabia, could turn a great religion like Islam on its head."

One could argue that Allah would not let the single rough Bedouin achieve what you see as a 'miracle' were he not doing Allah's work. Could Allah be protecting His religion from the likes of ...you? :)

...invented algebra

Huh? Arabs invented Algebra?

They had liberated women and slaves from many oppressive mediaeval customs, invented algebra

Hain????

I thought most posters here were literate .... (even if not educated) ...I guess this is proof positive.

Murad ji,

Yes, Paki Wahabis are grave threat to all including Shias.

But so are Ayotollahs and their Irani-Style Islam........

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