Common Pakistanis US Foreign Policy

#282 Tahmed: Very logical interact that is true and non-abusive to any side.

#281: "You think replacing a military dictator with an independent Supreme Court and two mainstream parties is the "wrong direction"?? --- Not at all. At the moment it seems to be right direction, but only time will tell how much it is benefitial for the common paksitani and having a political stable Paksitan.

Majumdar bhai #284 After a 100 years of development economics when many factors behind economic growth were put forward (education; technological innovation; "big push" in investments; public control over productive assets), a consensus emerged over the past couple of decades that good governance (in other words, the rule of law) is the necessary condition for any development.

That is what makes the restoration of the Supreme Court such a key step forward towards longer term economic development in Pakistan. Other factors (education, investment) etc. then get to do their part over time.

Tahmed sahib,

Historically Punjab and Sindh were among the wealthier agrarian provinces of British India. They may not have had big industries but no one ever starved in these provinces unlike the Gangetic provinces.

I am afraid the restoration of the CJP will not cause Pakistan's economic woes to disappear. CJP's restoration is a worthy cause nonetheless becuase it is a step towards rule of law and democratisation.

Regards

Re: # 282 chalo aap naheen gayen tau yahaan poswting karenga hum....buttees sahib aap ka jawab public chahtee hain

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this listing? Tahmed32 can you?
Topic started by iron_mask on Apr 1, 2009 8:54:35 am

So I typed in chowk.com into google. What happens this turns up


(1) Chowk: India Pakistan Ideas Identities
29 Mar 2009 ... India Pakistan South Asia social cultural politics religion history media ideas identity.
www.chowk.com/ - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

(2)Chowk.com - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chowk is a progressive website with a focus on India and Pakistan. [1] Its goal is to provoke readers go beyond sound bites and uncover truth, ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chowk.com - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

(3)#
#
Chowk.com - India Pakistan Ideas | Visit chowk.com
Over at Chowk.com you will find great content aimed at anyone that wants to know more about Indian and Pakistani culture. On the site, you will find many ...
www.killerstartups.com/Site-Reviews/chowk-com-india-pakistan-ideas - 45k - Cached - Similar pages



Can someone tell me what is wrong with this listing? I mean, if one were to go by what Tahmed32 says, the listings should not be like this.

majumdar #279 income distribution in Pakistan has historically been much less skewed than in India (which has been famous for having both the worlds richest - like the Nawab of Hyderabad - and the worlds poorest). That is why even in the 1950's and 1960's right up to today you dont see the grinding poverty that you see in India. Just as you dont see billionaire industrialists in Pakistan that you see in India. Lately this gap has been increasing in Pakistan, but hopefully the ousting of the military dictator (along with the rot that accompanied him like lota politicians, corrupt judges, lawless mullahs) and the civilian dictator and their replacement by political leaders as well as a judiciary who owe their power to popular support - combined with international support for the uplift of people in fata and other poorer areas - will help improve the income distribution curve.

shankar: Please try to avoid hollow, nationalistic generalizations ("India's direction is right, Pakistan's direction is wrong"). There are enough 10 watt bright indians on chowk to do that.

You think replacing a military dictator with an independent Supreme Court and two mainstream parties is the "wrong direction"??

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Harishbhai,

Pakistan has had a headstart in terms of economic reforms

To be more precise, India was ruled by Jwahirullah and his progenies for about 40 years, Pakistan had the misfortune of being ruled by ZAB for only 5 years. That prolly explains why Pakistan has somewhat less poverty and hunger than us.

Regards

pakis...bend over...the danda is coming again..and this time, it's going in deeper..

April 2, 2009
Petraeus Warns About Militants’ Threat to Pakistan
By ELISABETH BUMILLER

WASHINGTON — Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top American commander for Iraq and Afghanistan, warned a Senate panel on Wednesday that militant extremists in Pakistan “could literally take down their state� if left unchallenged, as he and two other top officials presented a grim picture of growing dangers in the region.

Michele A. Flournoy, a top Defense Department official, told the panel that there would be “higher human costs� for the United States in Afghanistan this year, while the chief of the military’s Special Operations commandos, Adm. Eric T. Olson, called the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan “increasingly dire.�

The trio testified jointly before occasionally skeptical members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who had their first chance to question in public some of the officials who helped formulate President Obama’s new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, which was announced at the White House last week.

The panel pressed the officials on two major issues: how the Obama administration will measure progress in the region and whether Pakistan and its spy agency, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, can be trusted. Mr. Obama has promised more aid to Pakistan and called on its leaders to crack down on Al Qaeda and other militant groups that operate within its borders.

Under sharp questioning from Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, Ms. Flournoy, the under secretary of defense for policy, acknowledged the administration’s concerns about a wing of the ISI, which American intelligence officials say is providing money and military assistance to the Taliban across the border in Afghanistan.

“I think ISI is a — or parts of ISI — are certainly a problem to be dealt with,� Ms. Flournoy said.

#275 by shankar

If a Pakistani comes to India, he/she will definitely notice that visible poverty & state of poor infrastructure are much more noticeable in India. Its a fact, there is no denying it.

Shankar bhai, not that I'm justifying India's poor state, but Pakistan has had a headstart in terms of economic reforms and there was a time when South Korea actually looked up to it. However, it has been all downhill since then. And what is worse is how Pakis like Romair and this Riaz dude still feel so cocky about themselves and their nation.

India and Pakistan are both in the gutter, but while Indians look out of it, Pakis continue to look into it.

Re: # 275
shankar...
India is housing 17 crore additional people, who are supposed to be part of arabic moon god's chosen land...and these people are real burden on India...If some part of India drags us towards Pakistan, it is cow belt and that segment of population....and alash, that segment holds the political power of India....in fundamental terms, Pakistan was supposed to go down to drains within couple of decades if USA stayed off from Pakistan and India sided with USA....but then, these ifs and buts does not make any sense...

harish,

I know Romair has a penchant to get under your skin.
After visiting India several times, I think Romair has made a very significant (& I think accurate) observation.

Both India & Pakistan, to an observer, appear more or less similar.However, the 2 countries are pointed in opposite directions. He was honest enough to admit that India's direction was the better one.

If a Pakistani comes to India, he/she will definitely notice that visible poverty & state of poor infrastructure are much more noticeable in India. Its a fact, there is no denying it.

Re: # 4

Riaz Haq Sahab,

Ham karva kehten hain aap karva (aur usse kahin badtar karte hain).

Please try and find out what happened in Parchinar in Oct of 1947? An auction happened? Who was auctioned? Hindu and Sikh women.

having said that apkistan is not going to go away and neither is the taliban taking over except a few areas.

Will die its natural death if you help it.

Sanatani

#256 by RiazHaq

..your cohort quoted Irfan Husain, but have you heard or read about Pervez Hoodbhoy? He is highly critical of Pak govt, army and ISI, and he is not only alive and well, he actually works as a head of Physics dept at Islamabad University, and paid by the govt.

Someone actually compared you with Captain Clueless aka bulleya. I'm now seriously inclined to agree with him.

Do you know the difference between chalk and cheese? That's what is the difference between Arundhati Roy and Pervez Hoodbhoy. Pervez Hoodbhoy may actually be a lot of things, is he anti-Pakistan? OTOH, Arundhati Roy is against the very idea of India. She tore up the Indian passport in public. Can Hoodbhoy even think of doing something as radical as that?

....while ignoring the horrible plight of the other half of India that constitutes the world's largest share population of the poor and hungry, living in conditions worst than sub-Saharan Africa.

What is with this statement? Is it the favorite of Pakis? Every Paki quotes this at one time or the other. But seriously, unlike you guys, Indians don't live on foreign aid obtained through blackmail or selling Pakis to Americans. India has to earn every rupee on its own and not depend on international "khairaat".

Re: # 271 nkg....

Hold on...don't go so fast...You start with one thing on BJP and than go on to cover so many different things in one small interaction.

But that was interesting...

Re: # 265
SPY...
That was one of the most stupid decisions,any govt. has taken so far....BJP is more driven by rhetoric than sense of practice....There was no reason, GoI should have gone for testing thermo nuclear device in Pokhran. It was much driven by political motivation than anything related to science and technology...they would have got off the self technology from Russia (like Pakistan got it from China, though A Q Khan, a lab technician, is getting the status of Albert Einsteine in Pakistan for this)...This stupid act has costed India most in defence sector...I was surprised to see, how, having one of the best brains (Arun Shourie, Prmod Mahajan etc...) can commit such mistake by poking China at that time....Parliament attack and all these jihadi problem is basicaly financed by China and executed by Pakis with sufficient help from local muslas.....At least, India do not have any power to break this nexus ( neither they can kick all muslas from India, neither they are financialy and militarily stronger than China to stop china from supporting Paki terror apparatus... Being a typical musla country in this region, Pakistan and Bangladesh will play major role in future Allahoo Kabooms accross india....)

Riaz,

Indian hindus remember Paki muslims only when they speak about terrorism........

we have no respect for you because you are followers of "deen-e-fasad"...........

you follow a satanic cult of hate that is based upon the ideology of hate called TNT.

"As obvious from the virulent anti-Pak commentary that comes from several Indians on this forum, the visceral hatred of Pakistan appears to be part of the DNA of a significant segment of Indian population."

Listen, Riaz,

We want you to live in your purelands..........we want nothing to do with you.......you call yourself Arabi-sharbi or what .....we do not care.

Just DO NOT sent your jehadi kuttas into India to disrupt our elections.......

if you send your jehadi kuttas then remember this time millions of indians are going to swarm across the border and kill these jehadi kuttas and their handlers......

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Al-Qaeda planning attack on US from Pakistan: Obama

Thursday, April 02, 2009
US issues bulletin on Mehsud threat; Petraeus says insurgents threaten Pakistan’s existence; Mullen for audit of Pak aid
LONDON/WASHINGTON: US President Barack Obama said on Wednesday al-Qaeda was planning to attack the US mainland from Pakistani soil and added that the US would chase and defeat the terror organisation wherever it was present in the world, reports Geo News.

Addressing a joint press conference with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown here, Obama said the US policy was clear for both Pakistan and Afghanistan, while Afghanistan would not be allowed to become a safe haven for al-Qaeda. The US president said elimination of al-Qaeda was in the greater interest of both the countries.

deeper and deeper...

12 die as drone hits militants’ camp in Orakzai

Thursday, April 02, 2009

By Syed Hasan Mahmud & Mushtaq Yusufzai

KALAYA/PESHAWAR: Three minors and two women were among the 12 people who perished in the first-ever US drone attack on the Orakzai tribal agency on Wednesday.

Sources told The News that an unmanned CIA-operated spy plane fired two Hellfire missiles on the two-storey house of a militant commander Maulvi Gul Nazeer, also known as Gul Mulla, in Khadeezai village, about 35 kilometres northwest of Ghiljo, Tehsil headquarters of the Orakzai Agency.

They said the drone first fired one missile and fired another after an interval. The attack was the first of its kind in the Orakzai Agency. Orakzai Agency is the only tribal region out of the total seven regions of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Fata), which does not share its border with Afghanistan.

Re: # 264 Riaz, "BJP's threatening behavior toward Pakistan that brought the two nations close to war in 2002"

I am no fan of BJP, but you cannot blame the BJP for the initiating the whole sequence of events. It was in response to the attack on the Indian Parliament, by the Paksitanis. The blame lies with the Pakistani mindset and the Pakistan govt that is always looking for an opportunity to bleed India. The attacker cannot claim to be under threat as he was surprised to get a bloody nose from the defender. And that too each time he has tried. You would have been right if you can give an equivalent of Bombay, Kargill and Parliament attacks done by India on Pakistan.

"Pakistan can not afford to ignore clear and present danger from both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists." Regarding the threat from Muslim fundamentalism I would not comment as it is entirely Paksitan's creation.
As for the Hindu (BJP/Sangh) parties, they are not in power currently. So I guess you do not feel threatened presently due to the Congress rule in India and must have liked its handling of the Bombay attack.

Re: # 261

The flurry of Indian responses to my comments reinforce what I said earlier and I repeat it here again: The kind of commentators and policy-makers that call for Pakistan to ignore the Indian threat are essentially armchair types who have no real appreciation for the reality on the ground. As obvious from the virulent anti-Pak commentary that comes from several Indians on this forum, the visceral hatred of Pakistan appears to be part of the DNA of a significant segment of Indian population.

As for Vajpayee going to Lahore, it's ridiculous to offer that as proof of good intentions. BJP's threatening behavior toward Pakistan that brought the two nations close to war in 2002 and the Gujarat riots in which BJP supporters killed thousands of Muslims happened soon after the Vajpayee visit. I put the Hindu Taliban (the Sangh Parivar that enforces Hindutva in India) in India in the same category as the Muslim Taliban in Pakistan.

Pakistan can not afford to ignore clear and present danger from both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 261 bhai sahib, aap itna kyon vichaar kar rahein hain.

hindi mein ek kahavat hain...na ghat ka na paani ka.....

bus aisee hi stithi hain in sab ka

Re: # 261 pmishra

that's exactly what that article in dailytimes pointed out... it's a pakilogical, I mean pathological disorder that seems to be affecting pakis across board...

It's the mindset shaped by decades of bigo0try and paranoia... right from the text books - like Jayp says - K for Kafir education... LOL

The delusional mindset of Riaz stands exposed with his frank response (I do appreciate that!). BJP is a threat to pakistan (remember Vajpayees trip to Lahore), indians anger and fury after 200 killed by pakistani terrorists means that indians are always about to attack, RAW is causing terrorism in pakistan etc.

What can one say? Is this mental illness? Some extreme form of paranioa? Or this is some kind of cultural disease? Maybe a product of twenty years of india-hatred in curriculum and culture that deepens with Zia but began even earlier.

I dont know the answer, but it definitely deserves careful study. I do know that he needs help.

Re: # 258 Riaz haq
[... BJP and the Sangh Parivar, who are at least as big a threat to Pakistan's existence as the Al Qaeda and the Taliban....]

I guess we have real competition for Captain Clueless Romair in utter stupidity.... Welcome Aboard Mr Haq... LOL

Riaz Haq, your mainstream parties are in favour of Islam being the state religion, which makes them religious right wing too.

Re: # 255

pmishra: You quote "The India-centric focus of much of society and the military is, arguably, responsible for much of Pakistan’s deficiencies as a state, a nation, and a society."

In my view, Pakistan faces two existential threats, not one. Clearly, the Al Qaeda and Taliban threat is in the news right now much more than the Indian threat.

Any nation that has faced Indian intelligence's covert war followed by an outright invasion to divide it can not be told to ignore that threat. The kind of rhetoric that emanated from India post-Mumbai can not be ignored either, particularly when both nations have a nuclear standoff, the kind of stand off the Americans had with the Soviets. In fact, the situation is much worse than US-Soviet standoff because there is no geographic separation.

The kind of commentators and policy-makers that call for Pakistan to ignore the Indian threat are essentially armchair types who have no real appreciation for the reality on the ground. As obvious from the virulent anti-Pak commentary that comes from several Indians on this forum, the visceral hatred of Pakistan appears to part of the DNA of a significant segment of Indian population.

While Pakistan's religious right wing has very little support as demonstrated by repeated, including recent election results , Indians do vote in large numbers for parties like the BJP and the Sangh Parivar, who are at least as big a threat to Pakistan's existence as the Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, this is probably before your time on chowk, but Pervez Hoodbhoy's articles have been published on chowk, and having heard from him, let me say he also does the same/same thing.
There is no comparing him with Arundhati, she has venom for India.

Re: # 248
harish: "She is alive and well. Now can you think up of an instance where a Paki has done the same and remained alive to tell his tale?"

Again, you continue to show your ignorance (real or intentional) about Pakistan. Pakistan has more than its fair share of Cassandras..your cohort quoted Irfan Husain, but have you heard or read about Pervez Hoodbhoy? He is highly critical of Pak govt, army and ISI, and he is not only alive and well, he actually works as a head of Physics dept at Islamabad University, and paid by the govt.

You turn on any Pak channel and any talk show and you'll see someone breathlessly criticizing the Pak govt.

On a per capita basis, Pakistan has many more Cassandras than India, notwithstanding your claims about India's press freedoms. The difference is that India's chauvinistic media prefers to criticize Pakistan and promote India's repressive policies and human rights abuses in places like Kashmir. The middle class Indian media is just like it's middle class people, endlessly singing the praises of "Shining India" while ignoring the horrible plight of the other half of India that constitutes the world's largest share population of the poor and hungry, living in conditions worst than sub-Saharan Africa.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Nice article by US commentator in the excellent pakistani daily times. One paragragh stands out for me, it speaks to the mental confusion of people like Riaz Haq:

[quote]
There is one piece missing, and that involves the Pakistani mindset toward India. There are a number of analysts (include me on that list) who believe that until the India-centricity of Pakistani foreign and security policy is substantially modified, the country will find it very difficult to adjust its sights to the real danger the state of Pakistan faces from the West. This adjustment not only involves the army, though it is a critical actor in this drama, but the whole of civil society itself.

The India-centric focus of much of society and the military is, arguably, responsible for much of Pakistan’s deficiencies as a state, a nation, and a society. That is a subject that I may take up in some future column. This one is about President Obama’s strategy to help Pakistan overcome the existential challenge it faces.
[\quote]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=200941\story _1-4-2009_pg3_2

sala theek bolta yeh gaana


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MVBflxV_JM

arjun tu kiya kar raha hain. leave riaz alone. he is Fleid Marshall Pak-fauj-e-azaam Romair ka naya avatar hain

bhayya
Riaz ko leave kar.

Poor Riaz Haq..trying to spin pakiland's popularity into props for pakiland's "press freedom"..
unfortunately for him. the facts trip him up

RSF index on press freedom...

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

#247 Posted by RiazHaq on March 31, 2009 10:48:40 pm

nice try but no cigar...I see you're trying to run away from the facts again...

India is ranked much higher in press freedom than pakiland...so, sorry,....no props for you there..the facts are an inconvenient thing...

Whether irfan hussein says it or mr madani sys it, the facts are the facts....not a matter of opinion..

and the facts are these


The recent BBC/Gallup survey placing Pakistan among the bottom five of the most popular countries in the world should put things in perspective. Of the 13,500 people polled in 21 countries, only 20 per cent had a favourable view of our country. In the rankings, we were only one place above Afghanistan. India, on the other hand, was favourably viewed by 64 per cent of those surveyed.

jeehaaan, naya khlanayak aaya.

riaz romair hain. (T)

#247..Pankaj Mishra is well known to be as obsessed with Kashmir as Pakistanis, so it's not surprising you like him!
Arundhati tore up her passport in public, who has ever done that in Pakistan?
What you and others miss is that these writers and many others write and think as world citizens, not as Indians at all, so they do not claim to be patriotic. They see themselves as being above borders. It sounds wonderful, but it's playing cricket when the rest of the world is playing hockey with you.
Even a relatively unknown writer like Farzana Versey has written many things that people would see as anti-national, but she has been able to write it and has never been physically attacked.

#247 by RiazHaq

Pakistani media and commentators are far more critical of their own country than the Indian media could ever be of India or Pakistan.

Oh really? Is that why when the Newsline guy published a story on Dawood Ibrahim's whereabouts in Pakistan, he was kidnapped, kicked, punched and brutally abused before being "dropped back" home? Is that why Shaheen Sehbai, due to death threats, prefers to live abroad? Is that why Najam Sethi was abducted by NS and kept incarcerated for three full days?

But I can also cite at least a few introspective Indian writers such Arundhati Roy, Pankaj Mishra, Yoginder Sikand, Deepak Chopra and others who expose the truth about "India Shining" much better than I can.

Oh, thank God you know a few Indian writers who've gained your approval. Now do you also know that Arundhati Roy addressed a gathering of separatists in the heart of Srinagar where she openly advocated freedom for the Kashmiris? She is alive and well. Now can you think up of an instance where a Paki has done the same and remained alive to tell his tale?

Re: # 243

Arjun,

Irfan Husain is being critical of his own nation...we are used to that. Pakistani media and commentators are far more critical of their own country than the Indian media could ever be of India or Pakistan.

But I can also cite at least a few introspective Indian writers such Arundhati Roy, Pankaj Mishra, Yoginder Sikand, Deepak Chopra and others who expose the truth about "India Shining" much better than I can. While I do disagree with but not dismiss Irfan Husain, I find that Indian Hindu chauvinists like you have no tolerance for liberal Indian writers whom I have cited.

I think the spiteful bigots like you need to learn to honestly look at yourself in the mirror before criticizing others. It'll do you a lot of good. You might even hope to be re-incarnated some day as a decent human being.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#245 Posted by harish_hyd on March 31, 2009 10:08:07 pm

what prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous rear) doesn't understand is that indians wishing for something doesn't make it happen...OTOH, paki actions in supporting jihadis even NOW are sure to push pakiland deeper into a civil war...

#216 by tahmed32

as for harish_hyd and the other indians looking forward to the destruction of pakistan - they will inshallah live out their lives like their previous generation did seeing their spiteful wishes for pakistan go unfullfilled.

Saying that you are an idiot does not mean I wish for the destruction of Pakistan. Maybe I should have said that directly instead of in a roundabout way and confusing the heck out of you.

#216 by tahmed32

as for harish_hyd and the other indians looking forward to the destruction of pakistan - they will inshallah live out their lives like their previous generation did seeing their spiteful wishes for pakistan go unfullfilled.

Saying that you are an idiot does not mean I wish for the destruction of Pakistan. Maybe I should have said that directly instead of in a roundabout way and confusing the heck out of you.

From dawn...for deluded pakis(yup...riaz haq..that means you)...

‘He who pays the piper calls the tune'
By Irfan Husain
Wednesday, 01 Apr, 2009 | 06:28 AM PST

Most foreigners cannot grasp our army’s preoccupation with India. For them, our neighbour is a large, powerful state that is playing an increasingly global role. By comparison, Pakistan is seen as an insignificant and troublesome player. The recent BBC/Gallup survey placing Pakistan among the bottom five of the most popular countries in the world should put things in perspective. Of the 13,500 people polled in 21 countries, only 20 per cent had a favourable view of our country. In the rankings, we were only one place above Afghanistan. India, on the other hand, was favourably viewed by 64 per cent of those surveyed.While such views are painful, they should shake us out of our state of denial. Instead of analysing why the world perceives us as it does, and trying to change this view, we seem determined to stick our collective head firmly in the sand. Indeed, these opinions only serve to strengthen our paranoia, and confirm that the whole world is against us. Most of the talking heads on our many TV channels attribute our negative image to ‘Indian propaganda’, and gloss over the frightful state of our nation.


In the ongoing civil war – and make no mistake, this is what it is – far too many powerful opinion-makers continue to sit on the fence. Some even indirectly support the enemy by dividing public opinion. While we should be forging a consensus, many politicians and journalists continue to question the fact that we are fighting the Taliban at all. By labelling the conflict as ‘America’s war’, they are diverting attention from the fact that it is Pakistan that is first at risk should the Taliban prevail.


Outsiders cannot comprehend this duplicity. In many countries, ‘aiding and abetting the enemy’ is a crime. Surely every patriotic Pakistani should condemn the various attacks that are taking place around us almost every day. After all, the victims are Pakistanis, not Americans. When drone attacks kill (mostly foreign) militants in their hideouts in the tribal areas, there is an orgy of denunciation. But when the Taliban (or their various partners in crime) slaughter our people, there is little condemnation. For instance, when over 70 people were killed in a suicide attack at a mosque last week, I heard very few politicians fulminating against those behind the attack.

pakis....can you hear me now?

US reserves ‘right of last resort’ in Pakistan

* CENTCOM chief says US prefers to enable Pakistan Army to hit terrorists
* US focusing on rooting out ties between ISI and Taliban

Daily Times Monitor

WASHINGTON: General David Petraeus, the head of the US Army’s Central Command, said on Monday his country reserved right of last resort for attacks inside Pakistan.

Speaking to the FOX News in the context of the Obama administration’s preparations for stepping up the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the general added however that the US government would prefer to enable the Pakistani military to do the job itself.

Asked about concerns in the US that Pakistan is not fully on board, Petraeus said the US was bringing “additional focus� on rooting out ties between the ISI and the Taliban.

He said trust between the two countries would be key. “I think we are building that kind of trust. And that’s the way I think is the best description for that. And it’s hugely important that that trust be built.�

Petraeus indicated “gradually increasing intelligence sharing� among Afghan, Pakistani and US forces along the border.

About frustration in Pakistan over drone strikes to take out terrorist targets, he said the US was mindful of perceptions. “It’s hugely important that we be seen as good neighbours, as friends, certainly fierce warriors who will go after the enemy and stay after them – but also as individuals who try to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible and are seen again as supporting the people and trying to help them achieve a better life.�

#194 Posted by RiazHaq on March 30, 2009 9:48:22 pm


(as proved by Satyam scandal)


Proved to whom? pakis?

the rest of the world doesn't see it that way...pakis, of course, have a problem with reality...

no wonder people think the KSE is booming although it had to be kept effectively shut for 3 months...

#232 Posted by rf786 on March 31, 2009 11:52:08 am

why is india screwed if pakiland is imploding? because you say so? repeatedly?

Re: # 230

SPY: "Why would the Talibans kill other Pakistanis when they are actually opposed to America. If you have a problem with another person, you dont start beating your wife for it."

Good question. My assessment is that "the Taliban" is not one organized monolith with a clear set of unified goals and single chain of command. There are many disparate groups operating under the label of "the Taliban". Some of these groups believe "the wife" is flirting with the enemy and so, they beat their "wife". My guess is that some of these groups have probably also been infiltrated by foreign intelligence agencies like RAW and Khad etc that want to wage covert war in Pakistan to destabilize it.

SPY: "How can the Talibans grow in strength if they are actually opposed by the common folks."

They have some ideological support from the right wing parties in Pakistan who manage to persuade other Pakistanis that these guys are fighting the infidels and therefore must be supported. But such people are definitely a small minority as was amply proved in the last elections.

SPY: "Why does Pakistan govt. accept American aid if the common folks are so much anti-america."

Not everything that democratic governments do is representative of the wishes of the people. Case in point: Britain's support of US Iraq war in spite of massive opposition in Britain.

SPY: "What is that strong glue that binds strongly both America and Pakistan even when they are hurting each other, but still not willing to let go their embrace."

There are many examples of love-hate relationships in the world. Such relationships are forced by circumstances.



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 210

It is good to see you interacting with postings un-like many writers at Chowk.

Re: # 12

Well said but who will explain the meaning of it to these IIT grads? they only understand zeros and ones

Looks like this Riaz Haq dude is another Romair in the making...

Re: # 232 rf
[...Pakistan is burning India is also going to lose...]

Nah, india should be fine... At worst - there will be some short term refugee problems for india...With due respect, Arif, I am surprised to see you buying this line of stupid arguement...

The "collapse" of pakiland basically means dissolution of its army establishment... that outcome would actually remove most of problems in the region... the taliban/jihad "menace" would die an automatic death - taliban is nothing but a fully sponsored extension of paki army estabilshement....

On contrary - a stable pakiland has never worked to india's favor, ever... a "stable" pakiland a fueled militancy, jihad inside india... if pakiland comes back to be "stable" - it will try do the same thing again against india...

Pakiland must "collapse" for the region to see peace... there is no other way... Of course, the collapse has to be managed a bit - US is there for that...

Re: # 232 rf, I wish people of your tribe grow further on both sides.

rf bhai, as I said noble sentiments indeed....but reality is very different. 60 years is three generations of diffrent outlooks for the two people. there is no same same....there is a reason why drones fly overhead and drop bombs, why ingrate paki gov't take $10B in baksheesh for fighting terror and don;t do didly squat, why paki terrorists conduct mock reenactments of terrorist operations to throngs of supporters from the awam, why kids in thousands march screaming "death to joos" with fake blood on their heads and toy bazookas, why teh bus driver who drives the sri lankans out of danger...remembers his brother the terrorist who died at the hands of Indian armed forces and was with LeT or JeM eviscerating babies and killing innocents, why instead of fighting terrorists, the people give away land to the taliban, why they stay in silence when ISI through paki consulate gives money to taliban for throwing acid on the faces of little girls in afghanistan.....and on and on......the people are very very different.

Re: # 224

Alpha

Wise people claim alpha is a zero sum game and more importantly unsustainable, if Pakistan is burning India is also going to lose, the only way these two win is through mutual respect and appreciation of our problems.

As for the argument that people of Pakistan support terrorist actions is a incorrect assumption, people of Pakistan may be driven by the empty rhetoric of their leaders but at the end of the day would like to have cordial relations with their neighbors. Lets not forget, the same people have shared land for centuries, why should it be any different today, I trust the people on both sides of the border, they will make the right choice in the end.

Nobody has to wish for disintegration of Pakistan. It will happen. All marks to MAJ for concocting the idea of Pakistan and managing to push it down the throats of the parting British, who in any case would have cared two hoots for the country after they had left. Creating an artificial country without any worthwhile history was one thing but building it into a nation state was something else. MAJ's failure lies in his inability to forsee the total absence of leadership in the country who could measure up the task of nation building which is serious business indeed. While India had the benefit of Nehru and Patel besides other stalwarts who went about integrating and building the new India, it was Pakistan's lot to be ruled by short sighted and pompous generals, bureaucrats and selfish politicians who went about destroying the country.

Re: # 207 Riaz, I agree to most of your statements in isolation. But still not clear when mixed together.

- Why would the Talibans kill other Pakistanis when they are actually opposed to America. If you have a problem with another person, you dont start beating your wife for it.
- How can the Talibans grow in strength if they are actually opposed by the common folks.
- Why does Pakistan govt. accept American aid if the common folks are so much anti-america.
- What is that strong glue that binds strongly both America and Pakistan even when they are hurting each other, but still not willing to let go their embrace.

I believe these need to be handled in isolation, otherwise it will be an endless game, till one of the parties is fully eliminated.

Also, let me go on record to say if Mr Haq was from China; I would be the first one to say "youre absolutely right; you guys have left us in the dust"!

Re: # 219 Tahmad,

I have not come across any confrontationist ideas so far to my interactions. I have neither backed out nor had a change of my heart because of these interactions. At times they are different from my thoughts but I still respect them and believe them, and do not mean to spite them.

tahmed,

{{Why dont Pakistanis spend their time finding flaws in India the way Indians posters do??? rest assured it is not because India is "shining" and perfect!!}}

Whoah...where were you when Haq was giving an editorial about India's poverty & disenfranchised people?!!

Who the heck said that India was perfect? I said compared to many things about Pakistan, India is much better.

Besides, its fun to puncture Haq's pride:)

If Heaven is going to be populated by all those mullahs & Urstruly-types; Hell seems like a damn fine place to spend an eternity in. I'm sure you will agree that Jinnah would happily go to Hell, if he found that the jihadis go to Heaven.

Re: # 218

LOL.....Mishra, You have hit the nail on its head.

Your analogy describes the situation aptly except for the attack on neighbour's "guests" part. I think we have still not stooped to that levels.

Majumdar do not associate the thug Manto with the lawyer's movement. He represents all that is corrupt in Pakistan, and the movement from which he wants to steal the limelight is all that is good in Pakistan

TNITC masadi

rf bhai, sentiments are all good. but the problem is that terrorism is mainly one sided. you can't cry same same if LeT (aided and abetted byt he paki people, army, intelligence, gov't) kills people in Pakistan and also kills people in Mumbai.

Re: # 218

pmishra2

Loss of IPL to South Africa should be an eye opener to all Indians, I have always argued for cooperation between the two neighbors for both share the same neighborhood, watching the neighbor burn himself is not a good strategy for the same fire can easily move into your house. This terrorism is a common enemy, lets not forget the main problem.

majumdar #221 That is much better. ;-)

Tahmed sahib,

how about some indian pointing to the strength of the Pakistani people that overcame a dictator??

Of course, yes. Not only a dictator but an elected crook as well. And of course on a personal note very satisfying becuase a dear friend of mine was in the thick of things.

Regards

pmishra: actions speak louder than words.

#217 majumdar: how about some indian pointing to the strength of the Pakistani people that overcame a dictator?? why this need to look for flaws and make negative predictions about Pakistan?? Why dont Pakistanis spend their time finding flaws in India the way Indians posters do??? rest assured it is not because India is "shining" and perfect!!

When confronted, posters like SPY and other indians back down claiming they are all for friendship with Pakistan. And then revert to the same spiteful posts about Pakistanis and Pakistan.

I dont think we wish for the destruction of pakistan at all. Actually most indians dont wish to think about Pakistan at all, they are busy with many other activities. But sadly, almost everyday we are forced to think about it.

Our situation is more like what happens when you are the neighbor of a crazy person. This is person is yelling and screaming all the time, some days his guests attack you and steal things from your home, other times they set his and your house on fire. Naturally we want protection from such an insane neighbor - we get angry, call the police, attack the neighbors "guests" and so on. We wonder if we can get this neighbor evicted and also why they are so deranged...

Tahmed sahib,

I dont think Harishbhai wants to see the destruction of Pakistan. He is just pointing to the tenuous nature of Pak's democracy, which you must admit is a valid point.

Regards

as for harish_hyd and the other indians looking forward to the destruction of pakistan - they will inshallah live out their lives like their previous generation did seeing their spiteful wishes for pakistan go unfullfilled.

hamidm: let us hope your predictions of nawaz sharif prove to be as bogus as your predictions of musharraf the "rising sun", zardari "zindabad", not to mention "lost my deposit" sheikh rashid.

Re: # 211

harish mian,

... please make sure you save sheikh tahmed's link to this 't-shirt' moment because you might need it sooner than you think ...... now that we have established the power of street politics we will see a mid-term election and it is a matter of time before nawaz sharif's troopers storm the supreme court and he tries to change the constitution to install himself as the khalifa and founder of the sharif dynasty ....

harish_hyd: you are welcome to your opinions.

#210 RiazHaq: Comfort is another luxury no Pakistani can afford. No politician should get a pass. If tomorrow Nawaz Sharif does something wrong, I will be there ahead of you to point that out.

But Sharif has done the right thing in taking (as I said) a bold, consistent and principled stand in restoring the Supreme Court despite determined opposition from crooks in high places (Musharraf and his lotas, and later Zardari and his lotas). And if you dont support someone when doing the right thing, then you are reduced to merely complaining about what is wrong.

#209 by tahmed32

Nawaz Sharif has more than redeemed himself with his bold and principled and consistent stand in the restoration of the Supreme Court.

tahmed32 sahib, I feel this is going to be your "t-shirt with Paki flag" moment. If you go by NS' past, Zardari is a schoolkid in comparison. NS is tame today only because he's powerless. The day he manages to unseat Zardari and grab the chair, you'll see him return back to his true colors. Unfortunately, when that happens, Pakis' disenchantment with democracy will grow even further and the military will like it has so many times in the past, akin to the greedy fox, will be ready to jump at the opportunity again.

Re: # 209
tahmed: "You have to look at today's realities, and see who is part of the solution and who is part of the problem. Nawaz Sharif has more than redeemed himself with his bold and principled and consistent stand in the restoration of the Supreme Court."

I am looking at today's realities and the company Sharif keeps gives me no comfort.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq #208 Pakistan does not have the luxury of waiting for someone who never sinned to become a political leader. You have to look at today's realities, and see who is part of the solution and who is part of the problem. Nawaz Sharif has more than redeemed himself with his bold and principled and consistent stand in the restoration of the Supreme Court. The other political leaders are either very much part of the problem (like Zardari), or sitting on the fence (like the ANP leadership).

Re: # 201
tahmed: "what is "opportunist" about Nawaz Sharif supporting the restoration of the Supreme Court?? If Nawaz Sharif is an opportunist, then I wish all other political figures in pakistan were opportunists like him!!"

Apparently, you haven't read Bengali's piece I posted in my comments. Sharif is a creature of the Zia military who has been far more arbitrary and dictatorial than either Zardari or Musharraf. And now, he saw an opening to back the lawyers movement and weaken Zardari because he thinks he can get back in power and impose Shariah and assume the powers of an unaccountable an d all-powerful Amirul Momineen (the Supreme Leader) as he tried to do the last time he was prime minister. Just look at the people who are part of his inner circle...people from Zia days (former miltary/ISI officials and other Zia cronies) who brought us the "gift" jihadi violence. Sharif in incompetent, corrupt and dangerous...more so than Zardari.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 205

SPY: "But it beats me why they never come out in open against these bombings and terrorism spreading in their country. That begining is not visible or am I wrong here."

Many of them do come out and oppose/condemn the violent Taliban (or the various disparate groups operating under the Taliban label).. ..but then the US drone attacks, often killing innocent civilians in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, weaken such people in the face of outrage against Americans. The truth is that the US presence has become a lightning rod and it drives people to act irrationally against their own best interests. The US troops have also become a magnet for global jihadists who come to the region to kill Americans and those seen as supporting Americans. The best thing for both US and Pakistan now is to figure out an exit strategy for the US by tamping down the violence in Afghanistan and it 'll have a salutary effect on the situation in Pakistan as well. The sooner people see the US making plans to exit, the easier it's going to be to rally Pakistanis against al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 202

Ahmed...Yeh kya ho hya...Gussa ho gaye.

Let me tell you I have lot of respect for Jinnah, and I am not aware if he ever told this for the Indians. I believe Pakistan would have been much better place if the following leaders and its people would have followed Jinnah as he had visioned Pakistan to be.

Re: # 181

Riaz, All your points are again reinforcing what I said earlier. I am aware of the points you mentioned - Islamabad nice city, big bunglows, well fed people, soaring KSE etc. Despite all this, pakistan is lining up in the list of top 10 failed nations, asking for IMF loans, its soverenity trampled (drone attacks) by its best friend, its top leaders lectured brazenly on what to do or not to do by visting dignitaries, international community shunning Pakistan more than ever before etc. This is declining.

India with its more pot-holed roads, poor infrastructure, millions of poor/underfed people etc. but still is part of G20, sending rocket to moon, has one of the better performing economies even in these difficult times. This is shining.

The world has made lot of opinions about Pakistan and they are based entirely on the events happening in Pakistan. Not a week passes by when there are no suicide bombing, now the terrorist attcks (Marriot, Sri-lanka players, Lahore police academy) have also become frequent, political situation is in turmoil for power struggle. All these point to an unstable and collapsing country.

I sincerly wish all this should stop, and Pakistan becomes a stable country. But this cannot happen by wishful thinking unless there is a fundamental change of thoughts and action this time.

Pakistanis always get defensive, justifying their country, about their past/present, and denying their problems. In contrast most literate Indians never shy about accepting India's weakness. That is the difference

Nowadays the Indian press and TV is so much active that they give enough coverage on day-to-day issues, that need attention. There was enough disucsion on the Bombay attacks, Ram Sene's Mangalore girl attack etc. These do not make India a safe country overnight. But at least a begining has been made and that is important.

It was a good sign when the common Pakistanis came out on roads in support of democracy against Musharaf and recently for reinstating judges / shariff etc. But it beats me why they never come out in open against these bombings and terrorism spreading in their country. That begining is not visible or am I wrong here.

Re: # 180

I do not divide the humanity into various religious, ethnic and tribal stearotypes. I have seen very decent Jews, Hindus, Parsis as well as Muslims.

Whenever I look at people I look at the common humanity. After Indra Gandhi assasination, a large number Sikhs were killed. For me they were human beings killed by fanatics.

When I said that learning English will expose them to new ideas, it meant the democracy, rule of law, honesty and hard work.

After reading posts it looks like being a Muslim transforms a person into some kind of monster like Talibans. Contrary to this thinking, Muslims around the World are no different than any other human beings.

However living under a system makes them so. The same people who migrate to the USA work hard, get eduacted, learn new skills and believe in democracy.

Re: # 202 for a man of god and peace etc, you are sure rattled and angry. I thought such base instincts were for the lesser mortals like us, O TAHMED32!

Oh, how the mighty have fallen

SPY: I agree too. And am glad you Indians have come to accept what Jinnah told you 60 years ago - namely, you indians can all go to hell.

RiazHaq: what is "opportunist" about Nawaz Sharif supporting the restoration of the Supreme Court?? If Nawaz Sharif is an opportunist, then I wish all other political figures in pakistan were opportunists like him!!

Re: # 196 Muqaddam

I agree and echo all your views in this interact.

Terror victims summoned
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
By Our Correspondent

LAHORE

AN inquiry tribunal has summoned all twelve police personnel and civilians who were injured during a terrorist attack on Sri Lankan cricket team at Liberty Chowk on March 3.

The tribunal consisting of consisting of Justice Syed Shabbar Raza Rizvi of the Lahore High Court has summoned them to record their statements.

Earlier on Monday, the tribunal holding in-camera proceedings recorded statements of DSP Special Branch, Race Course SHO, Shadman SHO, Ghalib Market SHO, Model Town ASI Riaz, SI Zulqarnain, ASI Ashiq, constables Muhammad Akbar, Ramzan, Saleem and Iftikhar. The tribunal has also asked the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to manage within one week production or statements of Sri Lankan cricket team members who were attacked at Liberty Chowk. The Punjab home secretary and top police officials have also recorded their statements.

/////////////////////

More than a dozen jihadis attack the sri lankans and see the paki govt response...they want statements from the cricketers.

Not even a single person has been arrested. This is classic ISI 101 operation, just like the benazir one, excpet that the crime scene was nor washed clean per ISI instructions.

One should not forget that the bus route was changed per paki amy directions to take it to the jihadis. Now you see no one is arrested as I said before.

Keeping guard dogs becoming a necessity
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
by Noor Aftab

Islamabad

Purchasing guard dogs was once a hobby of those mostly belonging to the elite segments of society but keeping in view the increasing crime rate this once a hobby is now considered by many as a necessity to keep criminals away.

The role of guard dogs is now not limited to the security at home but now these dogs are also used for protection of female owners outside their homes.


/////////////////

What is happening to the land of the pure. Per the book dogs are haram, now even women are keeping dogs in pakistan.....toba toba....

Re: # 194
Jihadi kid,
The CEO of Satyam Swindled the company. It does not imply Satyam is doing bad. IBM is planning to acquire Satyam.HP is also in frey....

This is a request to all Indians interacting on Chowk. India has emerged and is respected the world over as a successful multireligious multiethnic democracy where everybody has a say. Countries like Malaysia have since their independence taken a lot of lessons from India in this regard.
President Abdul Kalam was nominated for the President's post by Hindutvawadi BJP as much because he deserved the highest post in the country as to recognise a Muslim Indian's contributions to nation building.
A situation is developing where the Indian Muslims are joining the mainstream and are competing with the rest in their own right as Indian nationals.
Recently after the Mumbai carnage by Pakistani bigots, the Indian Muslim religious organisations have refused to bury the bodies of the killed Pakistani terrorists.
Things are changing. The presence of Muslims as a noticeable minority is also a fact.
By clubbing Indian Muslims with those of Pakistan we are just playing into the hands of the Paki hate machine which would like to show the world how bad Hindus are towards the Muslims.
Sure there are prejudices, but instead of calling Indian Muslims by derogatory term of Muslas we may just refer to them as Indian Muslims. For Pakistanis we may continue to use the term Musla but qualified by the word Pakistani.

Re: # 190
Hasho: "Kaiser Bengali is a known government agent. He has always written in favor of the army. Ask any one at Karachi Press club."

Kaiser Bengali is a respected economist with whom I have often disagreed. Bengali has been extremely critical of Musharraf and Zia. He has liberal political views and he detests right-wing opportunist politicians like Sharif and his PML(N) cronies.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 191

Arjun: "lincoln was wrong...all pakis can fol themselves all the time.. "

Since when are Sikand, Dalrymple and Bendreich "pakis"? I presented their impressions, not any "paki's" impressions.

"what's the market cap of the KSE?"

Based on the Pakistan's economy , it's less than 50% of the GDP. A lot more real than India's stock market which reached 200% of India's GDP based on the extraordinary hype that had nothing to do with the reality of India's economy (as proved by Satyam scandal) and then it collapsed to less than 100% of GDP, . The prognosis for India's Sensex is not good either. What it means is that even if the Indian economy continues to do well over the next two decades, GDP would have to more than double for the market cap to return to its previous heights without an equities bubble. If the economy keeps growing at 7.2%, that doubling would take at least ten years.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Kamran Shafi's numbers are off..in 1991, India's forex reserves were 1.2 billion $, not 5.8 bilion $.

A paki in touch with reality? he must be smoking something..


Better wake up sirs, and fast
By Kamran Shafi

WHILST I think President Barack Obama’s policy speech on the Afghan–Pakistan–Taliban imbroglio (or as Madeleine Albright put it quite aptly, ‘migraine’) was just great, why did President Asif Ali Zardari do a jig when he was told about it?

What was there to ‘hail’ in a speech that said clearly that there were no free lunches anymore for Pakistan, especially for the security establishment?

“Pakistan must demonstrate its commitment to rooting out Al Qaeda and the violent extremists within its borders … we will insist that action be taken — one way or another [are you listening, sirs?] — when we have intelligence about high-level terrorist targets,� said President Obama.

Chilling words, what! Sure enough, the very next day our FO came out with a mealy-mouthed response to the American president’s speech, to the effect that Pakistan would inform the US about its concerns “in due course�. These concerns should be many for an establishment used to getting blank cheques when the quite out-of-it Dubya and his “tight buddy� the Commando, were calling the shots.

Indeed, the Americans are even now asking for a full accounting of the billions of dollars that they quite unthinkingly paid directly to the security establishment, much of the funds allegedly outside the purview of the Pakistani finance ministry!

Many months ago, I had warned the powers that were/are, that they should beware the election to office of a highly intelligent and aware US president. That he would bring sense to the war on terror. Whilst ‘sense’, as we well know, is not something of which there is a surplus in the Land of the Pure, the establishment must immediately stop playing its usual, silly little games. For, from every indication, the Americans will hit it (and poor old hapless us!) very, very hard if it doesn’t.

It must also take serious note of what very senior American officials — generals, diplomats and all — are saying about the nexus between the Pakistan Army and the ISI, and the terrorists/extremists/Al Qaeda. The Americans have all but alleged that the army and the ISI are complicit in the nefarious activities of the terrorists/extremists/Al Qaeda. That operatives of the army/ISI warn high-value targets of coming hits…!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the New People’s Party goes on making a complete hash of things, and therefore exposing itself to more ridicule and loss of face and popularity. As if the massive mishandling of the restoration of the judges and the shemozzle wrought in Punjab by Laat Sahib Bahadur Salmaan Taseer was not enough, the Punjab government goes on posting public servants, specially police officers, hither and yon as if there was no tomorrow. This, despite President Asif Zardari’s so-called conciliatory speech to the joint sitting of parliament.

Why is Salmaan Taseer displacing these public servants when another, more permanent government belonging to the party that has the majority in the provincial assembly will soon be in office? Who will pay for the move of the officials when the posting orders are cancelled by the new government? Will Taseer, hugely rich man that he is, pay for the moves of the officers out of his own coffers?

So what goes on in the New PPP please? How much longer will it be at the mercy of people who have repeatedly shown themselves to be the incompetents they are? How come not one head has rolled for all the damage done to the party and to the country by people such as Rehman Malik and Salmaan Taseer? As asked before, what is so special about either of the two?

I must add here that to my utter surprise, to his credit Salmaan looked positively embarrassed and completely at sea when he appeared at Asif Zardari’s side at the Governor’s House press meet this last Sunday afternoon after it was all over. Is it at all possible that a germ of honour has come alive within his bosom? Is it possible that an iota of self-respect has come bursting out of his heart, finally? Is it at all possible that he has finally understood that he was completely wrong in helping rob a political party of its right?

I have to end with a rejoinder to the alleged Quetta denizen, Abdul Mannan Qutabzai’s recent letter in Dawn that there are no no-go areas for women in Quetta and that there is no danger at all of the Taliban declaring Sharia there. I invite him to go to http://pkonweb.com/2009/03/19/ capital-talk-on-geo-news-mar-19/ and see what eminent people like the good Senator Mir Hasil Bizenjo son of the good Mir Ghaus Bux Bizenjo; and Lt Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch, former governor of Balochistan, have to say about the matter.

We Pakistanis must stop living in denial forthwith if this country is to survive. We must take head-on the terrorist/extremist/Al Qaeda menace if we are to leave our succeeding generations a country half worth living in. We must stand up collectively as the great nation we are and say to those that engineer situations to suit their own institutional needs and wants that enough is enough!

I mean, really! We seem to have learnt no lessons at all from history. We were in denial about East Pakistan and see what happened there. We foolishly became the front-line state for America’s war against the Soviet Union and see what a mess we made of Afghanistan, and of our own country as a spin-off. We went along with the ‘bleeding of India’ nonsense in Kashmir and see where that particular exercise landed us. In 1991, when we began to ‘bleed’ India, our foreign exchange reserves were $300m and India’s were $5.8bn. In February 2008, India’s reserves were $292bn and ours in November 2008, nine months later, were $6.5bn. So who bled who?

Wake up, sirs, have some shame and let this country off the hook!

#182 Posted by RiazHaq on March 30, 2009 6:59:47 pm


After falling about 60% since last year, along with stock markets in the rest of world, the KSE-100 is still 4-5 times of what it was in 2001.


really? what's the market cap of the KSE? How much foreign portfolio investment is coming in? Can you name 5 paki companies listed on the KSE that can hold their own in the world? something like tatas or reliance or infosys?

and what's up with the KSE having to be effectively shut for 3 months...and yes, setting a "floor" for stock prices is effectively shutting the exchange..

lincoln was wrong...all pakis can fol themselves all the time..

By Kaiser Bengali

Monday, 30 Mar, 2009 | 07:54 AM PST |

Kaiser Bengali is a known government agent. He has always written in favor of the army. Ask any one at Karachi Press club.

Re: # 169
hasann...
Muslas are notorious for their trouble making ability (can you recall what French president called the muslas living in Paris? SCUM) accross the world and even in India ( in West Bengal and Maharashtra, muslas occupy more than 80% of the prison)...People dislike muslas because their nasty habits.
Related to Gujrat, every year there used to be something or other problem in Bharuch, Ahmedabad etc.. Gujjus were real desparate to teach muslas a lesson. It was very bad for Gujjus (most of them are vegetarian and very much peace loving)....you people should not expect to get away by committing crime (every time)....some time the other party may react....

#187 Posted by masadi on March 30, 2009 8:40:12 pm

And then some of us asked you what would change after droopy was restored...

and you slithered away..

Go ahead...go out on a limb...you can't do worse than Riaz "Uncle Sam will give us ponies" Naq or Captain "t-shirt with a paki flag" clueless..

trust me..the bar's pretty low..

This is what I had written and is on record May of 2008

The PML-N if it quits, resigns and takes to the street will develop "street power" because of the changed situation, it will boost the lawyers’ movement and bring to an end this February ‘08 farcial election’s attempt to maintain the status quo. This issue is a make or break issue for current political inroads through the present parliament for the people.

And they talk about predictions!

TNITC masadi

RiazHaq another sellout clown who is a supporter of dictators

Here is what I had written on May 12th, 2008 regarding the restoration of judges....

http://www.selvesandothers.org/article16476.html


TNITC masadi

Re: # 183

tahmed: "PMLN has demonstrated character in the lawyer's issue - and it seems to have learnt something in the intervening years!! Democracy does not happen overnight - and Pakistani politicians are learning the hard way why honesty is indeed a better policy than dishonesty."

Have you seen the following from Dawn Today .....


Lawyers’ struggle: another view

By Kaiser Bengali

Monday, 30 Mar, 2009 | 07:54 AM PST |




THE successful movement for the reinstatement of Iftikhar Chaudhry is being billed as a historic watershed event that has redefined the politics of the country and, in particular, the relationship between citizen and state.

Whether this conclusion turns out to be an illusion or reality will be tested in due course of time. In the meantime, however, an examination of the composition of the movement raises some disturbing questions.

The movement was started in March 2007 by the lawyers’ community and emerged as a rallying point for democratic forces opposed to Gen Musharraf’s military-backed regime. In the process, it attracted support from a broad spectrum of society — political parties of all shades, civil society and even retired military and intelligence officers. The latter formally organised themselves under the banner of the Pakistan Ex-Servicemen Society.

Following last year’s national polls and Gen Musharraf’s subsequent departure, a section of this coalition lost its enthusiasm for Iftikhar Chaudhry’s reinstatement. The vast majority of dismissed judges also agreed to be reinstated after taking a fresh oath of office under the constitution. However, a core — largely centred in Punjab — remained committed to the original objectives of the movement and continued the campaign. By early 2009, PML-N — the majority party in Punjab — took control of the movement and led it to a successful conclusion.



The movement’s advocates saw themselves on a pedestal as ‘crusaders’ for justice and rule of law and couched their rhetoric in highly moralistic terms. Undoubtedly, the movement comprised eminent individuals of impeccable integrity, who have devoted their careers uncompromisingly to the cause of rule of law and democracy. Due credit in this respect has to be accorded ungrudgingly.



However, a perusal of the roster of the ‘crusaders’ does not inspire unqualified confidence, as many have their past to answer for. There are questions with respect to their commitment to democracy, constitutionalism and rule of law — and their political orientation; with implications for the direction of politics in the country.



It cannot be comforting to note that some of the advocates of the movement were active members, collaborators or supporters of military regimes. Among leaders of the lawyers’ movement, one was a provincial minister under Gen Musharraf’s military regime and another a prosecutor for Gen Musharraf’s National Accountability Bureau. They also included many in the legal fraternity, political parties, civil society and media who were ardent supporters of Gen Musharraf when he subverted the constitution and turned into his bitter critics when he dismissed Iftikhar Chaudhry.

Some of them tried to make their contribution through print and electronic media and others through marching on the streets. That the subversion of the constitution did not stir the conscience of all of the above, but the cause of a PCO judge did is a sad commentary on their credentials with respect to their principled commitment to the rule of law and democracy.

The record of political parties in this coalition also merits close scrutiny. In this respect, the role of Jamaat-i-Islami is particularly murky. It collaborated with the Yahya Khan regime in the massacre in erstwhile East Pakistan, served as the B-team to the violently repressive Ziaul Haq regime, and supported the Musharraf regime in imposing the 17th Amendment — which it now opposes! Under the circumstances, it appears to be a strange voice for judicial, civil rights and democratic causes.

The PML-N has struggled against the Musharraf dictatorship; as such, its leadership’s collaboration with Ziaul Haq’s military dictatorship can perhaps be condoned and their credentials as champions of democracy and constitutionalism accepted. However, they cannot escape responsibility for the terrible mess the country is in today in terms of institutional breakdown and internal terrorism. Notably, their then comrades-in-arms included many military and intelligence officers, some of whom are now their comrades-in-arms in the current movement.

The ex-servicemen are mostly those who served in the armed forces and its intelligence wings during the Zia dictatorship. One of them is a 1977 coup leader, another an intelligence officer who publicly claimed the right to destabilise democratic governments in the name of protecting ‘national interests’, and yet another an intelligence officer who publicly confessed to using state funds to ‘manufacture’ a political party that included the present PML-N leadership.

Some of the officers were integrally involved in the so-called Afghan jihad and in creating the jihadi infrastructure in Pakistan. Allegedly, the core of this jihadi network is located in Punjab, to the extent that the then ruling Taliban cadres in Afghanistan in the late 1990s referred to many of their commanders generically as ‘Punjabis’. Even recently, many of the terrorist perpetrators in the country have been traced to Punjab towns like Toba Tek Singh, Jhang, Rahim Yar Khan and Faridkot. The southern Punjab-centricity of all the above ‘crusaders’ is striking.

The questions that arise are: can the emergence of the above coalition be a mere coincidence? Or has the cover of the issue of Chaudhry Iftikhar’s reinstatement been used to attempt to band together Ziaist rightwing elements, denominated by the military’s national security agenda, religious parties’ theocratic agenda and the business community’s neo-liberal economic agenda? And what does this development portend for the conflict vis-à-vis democracy and federalism in the country and religious extremism in the region?

After all, there is a history of an integral nexus between PML-N leaders, now retired military and intelligence officers and Jamaat-i-Islami under the Ziaul Haq dictatorship. Of course, PML-N has attempted to cast itself in a liberal mould, but two facts militate against an unqualified acceptance of their liberal credentials. One is the fact that many of the important PML-N leaders have a background of association with religious parties, particularly Jamaat-i-Islami. And the other is the fact that it made an abortive attempt in 1998 to introduce the Sharia through the 15th Amendment to the constitution. At the least, these factors raise likely suspicions about its lack of committed opposition to a theocratic agenda.

It appears that ideological battle lines are being drawn. One side appears to coalesce with the largely Punjab-based, PML-N-led rightwing neo-conservative remnants of the Ziaist establishment, committed to a centralised state with a quasi-theocratic national security agenda. The other side appears to comprise nationally based forces, disparately comprising the PPP, ANP, MQM and Baloch parties, seeking a society sans religious bigotry and a polity that is federal and pluralistic. The choices for the people are stark and clear.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Tahmed get off the Pakistan case you miserable sellout. The Americans messed up Pakistan with their proxy cold war, making love to the "mujahideen" and now they want to ruin it again by claiming to fight the very people they nurtured. The main purpose of those dirty thugs is to make the Third World suffer through military dictators while defining agendas that are profitable only for the American elite. We need to rid ourselves of the American thugs and your kind of petty a$$ wipe brown sahibs...

GET OFF OUR CASE.

TNITC masadi

#182 RiazHaq: Agreed on the strength of the Pakistani people - lotas and arab worshippers who show up on chowk notwithstanding. However, you are wrong on the politicians. PMLN has demonstrated character in the lawyer's issue - and it seems to have learnt something in the intervening years!! Democracy does not happen overnight - and Pakistani politicians are learning the hard way why honesty is indeed a better policy than dishonesty.

Here's another report about Pakistan by Mark Bendreich of Reuters from last year:

"A little more than six years ago, immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks on U.S. cities, few sane investment advisers would have recommended Pakistani stocks.
They should have. Their clients could have made a fortune.
Since 2001, the nuclear-armed South Asian country, blamed for spawning generations of Islamic militants and threatening global security, has been making millionaires like newly minted coins.
As Western governments have fretted about Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into the hands of militants, the Karachi Stock Exchange's main share index has risen more than 10-fold."

After falling about 60% since last year, along with stock markets in the rest of world, the KSE-100 is still 4-5 times of what it was in 2001.

Again, I invite those of you whose interest go beyond knee-jerk Pakistan bashing to learn more on my blogs.

Bottom line: Pakistan has a lot of challenges and it is going through a very rough period right now. It has tons of problems and it faces multiple crises that it must deal with. But don't underestimate the ability of its people to bounce back strongly in the future, just like it did soon after the lost decade of the 1990s when corrupt and inept politicians ruled Pakistan. Unfortunately, those same politicians and their ilk have just made a comeback in Pakistan last year through its flawed feudal democracy. But they won't last long. This nightmare will be over sooner or later.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 179
SPY: "Shankar's respone (#177) can be summarised in one line - "India Shining, Pakistan Declining"."

Have you or Shankar been to Pakistan? Or your entire knowledge about it is from negative media reports that have a singular focus on terrorist incidents in Pakistan?

Here's a quote from Indian writer Yoginder Sikand after his visit to Pakistan last year:

"Islamabad is surely the most well-organized,picturesque and endearing city in all of South Asia. Few Indians would, however, know this, or, if they did, would admit it. After all, the Indian media never highlights anything positive about Pakistan, because for it only 'bad' news about the country appears to be considered 'newsworthy'. That realization hit me as a rude shock the moment I stepped out of the plane and entered Islamabad's plush International Airport, easily far more efficient, modern and better maintained than any of its counterparts in India. And right through my week-long stay in the city, I could not help comparing Islamabad favorably with every other South Asian city that I have visited. That week in Islamabad consisted essentially of a long string of pleasant surprises, for I had expected Islamabad to be everything that the Indian media so uncharitably and erroneously depicts Pakistan as. The immigration counter was staffed by a smart young woman, whose endearing cheerfulness was a refreshing contrast to the grave, somber and unwelcoming looks that one is generally met with at immigration counters across the world that make visitors to a new country feel instantly unwelcome."

Here's another statement by William Dalrymple after his visit to both India and Pakistan on 60th independence anniversary of the two nations:

"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.
Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centers and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million."

My own personal experience of visits to India and Pakistan confirms the findings of the above two authors. You can read more about it on my blog.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 168, 169 Hassann

"Gujarat massacre of Muslims" was very unfortunate and a dastardly act on fellow Indians, by the so called educated people and needs to be condemned.

I agree with most of your views. However for the statement "So if in the Madrassah, people who learn english and get exposed to new ideas might change." only the exposure to English may not suffice. They also need to embrace other ideas such as be democratic, accept secularism, and equality to all religions, sex etc.

English can help them become more literate but not neccessarily educated. There is a difference. It was the English speaking Saudis who did the 911. Similarly it was the literate class that did Gujrat. All of them were uneducated on the other aspects of humanity such as democratic, secularity, and equality, which need not neccessarily be tought in English.

Look at all the gulf countries, they have enough money to get all the latest technologies and English, but they cannot advance it further, as there is nobody to add / contribute further to it, either from their own people or it does not attract the best brains in the world. All these 3 factors are missing there.

RiazHaq,

Shankar's respone (#177) can be summarised in one line - "India Shining, Pakistan Declining".

This is not my statement but the world's opinion, and they have seen the two nations go almost opposite ways on almost every parameter in the last 15-20 years.

"when your country was begging the IMF for the bail out, India was sending a rocket to the moon." - Refer to the Dawn edition of 15th Nov08. News of both events is on the same page, but the two countries are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

#173 RiazHaq: "Really? What choices do they have? Between the same old recycled politicians? Is there room for new blood in Indian politics?"

Choice has definitely improved, although it has a still a long way to go. Earlier the politicians least cared for their constitutency and public work. Nowadays every chief minister knows that he / she can survive only if he is an astute leader and show tangible results. In Delhi Shiela Dixit managed to win 3 times in a row. While Lalu after many years was beaten in Bihar, as he had nothing significant to show.

Also almost every leader is grooming their sons / daughters in politics. Although many are against it, but I see that as positive sign as I believe the young generation is generally less corrupt, more open to ideas, and in line with the current trends and demands etc.

hassan sahab,

It takes only 19 English speaking hijackers to cause havoc.

The US aid program is going to get squandered...you know it..I know it...history is a guide. All it does it allow the Pakistan military get more toys. They can dip their hands in the budget & spend whatever they want. Who is to stop them?!

meanwhile the US taxpayers have to fund Pakistan's education & infrastructure..

During Mushy's era, Pakistan got 1 billion dollars a yr & billions of forgiven loans. So Pakistan's economy started looking up. Who took the credit?! Mushy, ofcourse.

However, every ill in Pakistan, it seems, is blamed on Amrika. Hey! how about a thank you; once in a blue moon, hahn?!....I know part of my tax dollars will end up in some high rise condo in Dubai...

"Common Pakistani" blame of US is shameless. If you don't like Amrika; at least have the balls to tell the US "we don't want your money!". What's shameless is Pakistan willingly takes the money, but curses Amrika.

RiazHaq

Poverty in Pakistan has increased in the last 10 yrs, whereas in India it is decreasing. Pakistan has a worse illiteracy rate than India. Corruption is much worse in Pakistan, as per Transparency International. On human development scales, India is ahead of Pakistan.

Indian politicians are bad--but NOWHERE on the scale of Pak politicians. These guys have looted the country wholesale! Compared to the politics of Pakistan, India should be very proud of herself. Despite the fact they have a much more diverse population culturally & religiously, democracy has always been the norm. No Indian politician has raped the Constitution, like Pakistani leaders have.

When Indira Gandhi messed with the constitution, those disenfranchised Indians booted her out.

The ONE thing that Pakistan outshines India is the ability to obtain "bheek". Even though India is filled with beggars, they haven't mastered the art of getting bheek, the way Pakistan has. I don't know how many untold billions Pakistan has received since independence. Pakistan is kept afloat on aid & loans that are ultimately forgiven. Now, if the aid is squandered, the blame lies primarily in Pakistan's hand.

You can write as many blogs you want about Pakistan's technical achievements. They are nowhere compared to India's.

Remember, when your country was begging the IMF for the bail out, India was sending a rocket to the moon.

So keep living in this "we are better off than India" delusion & continue to creatively shake down the West & all your other sugar daddies...you are terrific at it.

The Indians who were born after Partition overwhelmingly are relieved that Pakistan isn't part of India. At least we can agree that Partition was the best thing that happened; in the long run.

Re: # 173 Riaz the difference is that Indian Politicians are capable of recognising national well being and national interests, and seperating them from their interests.

Pakistani elite will sell their country for a few dollars more

Lahore : the height of nautanki


Yes. that is correct. You have read it right. IMHO this is nautanki (thanks sadna). Pakistani elite nautanki at its most brazen level.

At stake is $2B per annum from the US - which will dry if everything is normal. The current bid is to increase this amount. this is at a similar level to what was considered "peanuts" by Zia Ul Haq (with inflation etc added).

Pakistanis are the greatest
(a) actors
(b) blackmailers
(c) drama queens

In this respect. they know how to extract the maximum dollar from the world. Shylock and his pound of flesh episode is a bleeding joke when compared to these guys.

Re: # 171

SPY: "India goes to polls in the next few weeks to decide on all these issues - concerning daily life and long term strategic issues all. They decide or influence what gets done or not done."

Really? What choices do they have? Between the same old recycled politicians? Is there room for new blood in Indian politics?

While some have joined the long-running Maoist insurgency in the "Red Corridor" , I think the saving grace for India is the infinite patience of the majority of its poor and practically disenfranchised people.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"Neither government is concerned with the welfare of its poor people. By percentage of population, India has more of them than Pakistan. Particularly disturbing is persistent hunger in India, which PM Manmohan Singh describes as "India's Shame" while at the same time India holds US debt worth $30 billion."

This is incorrect both India and Pakistan's poverty rates are roughly the same (~25%). Albeit India's historically India's poverty rate was far higher even in the recent past.


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/pk. html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/in.htm l

But quite honestly that is almost irrelevant. Many poor peeps in India are poor because they have no drive to succeed. Instead they sit on their asses and expect the govt, relatives, etc. to support them.

#167 Posted by RiazHaq

"Neither government is concerned with the welfare of its poor people." - Agreed

"By percentage of population, India has more of them than Pakistan" - Agreed, but the numbers for India are reducing while increasing for Pakistan. Pakistan should prevent it increasing.

"Particularly disturbing is persistent hunger in India, which PM Manmohan Singh describes as "India's Shame" while at the same time India holds US debt worth $30 billion."
That shows the maturity to accept the real issues and to deal with them.

"Do you think it's fair to the hungry people many of whom are worse off than people in sub-Saharan Africa?" Agreed - not fair, but that is life. People willing to work do not face such situation. Your statement and my responses are true in most of the countries of the world including India.

Note: India goes to polls in the next few weeks to decide on all these issues - concerning daily life and long term strategic issues all. They decide or influence what gets done or not done.

Re: # 16
Tahmed 32:

I agree with you that I did not go into the details of atrocities committed by the misguided people. That would require another extensive article. I wanted to highlight the US policy of using force that has failed and cost tremendous loss of human life.

I believe force should be used as a last resort. I categorically condemn people who burn schools and kill innocent people.

Re: # 6
Shankar:

I agree with you that one prescription does not fit every human being. The people who are brainwashed in certain way can never learn to respect human live.

Hersh Mander wrote about Gujarat massacre of Muslims by highly educated Hindus who belonged to RSS and VHP. These people had complete addresses of Muslims in the area, used cell phones and were well versed in english. All of these educated people committed tremendous atrocities.

Looking back at the history, the Germans who committed Holocaust were also highly educated.

However I have seen people completely changed when they are exposed to new language and ideas. I know many Pashtuns who started in tribal environments, received education and completely changed.

So if in the Madrassah, people who learn english and get exposed to new ideas might change. Even a small percentage will be worth the effort.

Rajesh:

I believe that the states should look after their own affairs and not blame others. So Pakistan should not blame India and India should not blame Pakistan.

Politicians find this easy way out to cover up incompetence. In this World states behave like human beings. The states like people look after their own interests.

The religious fundamentalists, Mullahs are on the wrong side of history. In the contemporary World, the nations and people rise only if they are educated and technologically advanced. No nation has risen in the recent history by being religious.

Regarding the attack on Sri Lanka team, I believe this was a massive failure of the state. The governor Salman Taseer was busy in horse trading to install PPP in Punjab. Shrief brothers were disqualified, Chief minister was sacked and governor kicked out the police officers and replaced them with his own people. So under these circumstances, it was a miracle that Sri Lankan team survived.

Lastly I believe India and Pakistan should follow the path of peace. We should learn from Europe and rise above our differences.

Re: # 165
SPY: "So you tell me which govt is taking more care of its poor people. Absolute numbers of poor will be larger in India as it also has a larger population. A better measure will be to check if those numbers are reducing in percentages in the last few years."

My answer to your question is: Neither government is concerned with the welfare of its poor people. By percentage of population, India has more of them than Pakistan. Particularly disturbing is persistent hunger in India, which PM Manmohan Singh describes as "India's Shame" while at the same time India holds US debt worth $30 billion. Do you think it's fair to the hungry people many of whom are worse off than people in sub-Saharan Africa?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 162 SPY-ji donot worry. that is MASTAH Tahmed32 just trying to be funny and sarcastic at the same time - little realising that he is missing his intended targets. You will get used to it once you are hear for some time.

Re: # 164

Hi Riaz, I agree with you and wish that India could have spent more time / effort / money for its poor people. But there is difference between the relationship of handling poverty and strategic interests for India, vis-a-vis the same issues handled by Pakistan.

While Pakistan govt is broke, defaulting on international loans, begging IMF for short term capital etc. but still it spends more % of its GDP money on its defence and strategic interests, despite clearly knowing that India is not a threat (Zardari's words). Compared to this India spends lesser in GDP% knowing fully well that Pakistan govt (and a large Pak population also) has always been hostile to India.

So you tell me which govt is taking more care of its poor people. Absolute numbers of poor will be larger in India as it also has a larger population. A better measure will be to check if those numbers are reducing in percentages in the last few years.

The Indian Govt. can do more and has done significant poverty handling measures. But there is a point, beyond which it is not possible, and other issues also gain importance to be handled. I believe the point where the Pakistan Govt changes its focus from the poverty handling steps and starts looking at the strategic interests, comes much earlier than required.

Example: The Indian govt has spent enough money to have basic schools in villages, for the poor to get their children educated at a cheaper cost. Pakistan govt does not spend much money on schools, with the result the children go to Madarsa and easily get exposed to redical / terrorist teaching. In fact it is the USA which is making schools in many places of Pakistan as non-military financial aid.

Re: # 153
SPY, There are 450m (three times the entire population of Pakistan) poor, hungry and homeless and/or slumdwelling people in India who are picking through garbage and coming up empty handed. Would you then argue that India should forget about its strategic interest because of the well documented, widespread and abject poverty in India?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

SPY-ji,

you are quite right, in fact this fire has always crossed the border. But it is important that it express itself in the land of its origin. becuz that is the only way the ruling establishment in pakistan (yes, its fractured, and, yes, many there are sick of this strategic depth bakwaas) will take action against it. Its only when friends and family of Hamid Gul and Kayani and other real power brokers are scared of death from "freedom fighters" that they will realize that they need to change things. Otherwise, these great thinkers will always manage to come up a good reason for killing indian civilians for no reason.

Re: # 158 "looks like the lahore attack has the indian specimen on chowk squawking with excitement."

Ahmed sahab, very much disagree with you on this. Only the foolish Indians might be rejoicing at this.

If the neighbours house is on fire, and we do nothing, it is not long before our house will also meet the same fate.

I sincerly wish that all the terrorist groups behind such attacks are destroyed and neither Pakistan nor India face such attacks again. Ideally we should be handling this problem together, but unfortunatley there is lot of mistrust and complications at each stage. I hope things improve before this fire engulfs us fully.

Re: # 103
Rajesh...
FYI...
The attackers spared the bus driver, and his brother was sent to arabic moon god's whore house by Indian armed forces in kashmir (died in jihad in Kashmir)....Isn't it enough?
None of the Srilankan cricketers are feeling comfortable to play in Pakistan, anymore....They are now undergoing psychological treatment by an Art of Living Guru.......
The fact is, Paki cricketers (most of them are members of Tablighi Jamat and all are muslas) left hotel much after the Lankan cricketers left....You mean to saym they were not aware of it?
It may be the work of Javed Miandad (he perfectly fits to be a terrorist), using his nexus with Dawood Ibrahim, Omar Seikh etc...plotted this....

cricket was still a gentlemen's game....disgusted Dennis Lilee, kicked that rascal....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jwI4LwgL9c

Re: # 151
BJ2...
most of Indians are also captive....Otherwise, how come UP,Bihari bhaiyas still shout in the name of Rahul Gandhi....India don't lack stupid people like Pakistan....

#143 mr. madani: you should not "laugh exceedingly". it will making bhayya altaf worrying exceedingly that you are catching his manic depressive disease.

looks like the lahore attack has the indian specimen on chowk squawking with excitement.

#152 hamidm was trying to be humorous. i dont blame you for getting confused.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/30/pakistan.attack/index.html?iref= mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

Those 'boys' came in an armoured vehicle. How is it possible to 'own' an armoured vehicle by non fauzis?

hamidm2...
nice to see you back entertaining people here....
your proposition do have some sort feasibility. only some glitches here and there....
unlike pakistan, the jihadis will not be supported by armed forces and police. that creates hell lot of difference...people like abdul nasher madani, a r antuley etc.. do try to create trouble/wage jihad. But somehow, administration tackles them. The way jiahdis in Kashmir are handled, jihadis can be handled in much better way in non-border areas. Indian armed forces have outrightly rejected Sachar commmission and so, jihidis infiltrating into indian armed forces is not possible in near future. So, dream of successful jiahd within indian territory may not be that easy like Pakistan.....

Re: # 141 "The country is collapsing at the seems and he talks about "strategic interests". Mian jee, get real and get an education, will you ask the 'homeless person' who is scrambling through garbage cans to eat to look after his 'strategic interests'?"

LOL....Masadi sahab...you are great...I like your response.

#137 "i think pakistan should focus on starting a full fledged rebellion by indian moslems led by deobandis ...... think of all the trouble a hundred and fifty million jihadis can cause!"

That is what you have cherished, thought and done over the last 60 years. But why dont you get it straight that the Muslims in India realise where they are better off. Otherwise you would have seen mass migrations from India to Pakistan. There are enough number of Kalams, Azharuddins, Shah-rukhs, AR-Rahmans etc. who are Indian at heart and would never fall to this Pakistan bait.

Pakistan should concentrate its energies in its nation building rather than destroying India. Negative thoughts and actions (e.g. Bombay attack) will have lesser impact on India, but they will have a devastating impact (e.g. Sri-Lanka playerr attack) on Pakistan.

Re: # 150

Mishraji, Pakistani people are basically a captive people and it is unfair to blame the laymans (and the nation) for the crimes of the elite!

Attack on the police academy ! No muslim could have done such a thing ! What about the hindutva terrorists? - remember Bal Thakre had threatened to do this.

Who gains from this? Only US, India and Israel. This is probably a CIA-RAW-MOSSAD collaboration, definitely several foreign hands are involved. Army is ready to attack india and capture red fort, its time to end 61 years of waiting...

So goes life in bevakoofistan, a people so immersed in their delusions that they are unable to understand who is killing them...

Re: # 148 yaah! aur kiya hain jo tu likha - jo naya hain.

same old same old.

now watch chowk ban your arse for advertising your website here :D

Any one who wants to understand Obama's new regional strategy, please take a look at my blog post on this subject at http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/03/obamas-afghan-exit-strategy.html . There are plenty of links to ref material. Don't be misguided by the people who don't have clue about what's in it. Read for yourself and make up your own mind.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 146

Re: # 146 divide and rule and bribe their way out

.The British were the most keen on discreet contacts. The doctrine was simple: “Divide your enemy. Engage with those who can be reconciled. Kill or capture those who cannot.�

In their view, the “enemy� were not all hardened ideologues but included ordinary tribal Afghans who, if they might not accept the presence of foreign troops, might ultimately come to accept the Afghan government.

Re: # 144
‘Lawrence of Afghanistan’ and the lost chance to win over Taliban fighters.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment /books/article5992800.ece

anil sahib, precise what Michael Semple was doing in aghanistan and pakistan. now this modern day lawerence is out

haha ... someone read about the attack on police academy...
The only thing that saddens me is the fact that pakistans' demise is by its own hand .... India has not really done anything to bring it about...

Khair ... kal maje ka din hai .... :)

Deal with Egypt and Jordan is what it took to split Arab fighting machine. Maintaining this costs some billion dollars a year. This arrangement is workable and does not unhinge Israel either, and terror beyond Palestinian borders is limited to few rockets lobbed across the border, otherwise it is inside Gaza and West Bank, even Lebanon is quiet. This is manageable chaos. There will be a Palestinian state, and sooner, if Israel increases its intensity of response. This changes world opinion.

Why would the U.S. and NATO not do the similar in AfPak Theater?

There is a ransom (Urstruly’s words) that will be acceptable and allow for an exit and ensure chaotic buffer. Here is one Talibani ready to strike a deal, when the money has not reached there. I think money will be manageable and create competition among Talibanis. Al Qaeda is probably another story, and hence the rhetoric. America seems to cut its losses in the battle fields, to win them in economic front. If you do not believe me, then try to guess whose dollars are paying Urstruly’s ransom in Egypt and Jordan. The world is not as sick or dark as dear Masadi ji would want. God guys still win.

Re: # 141
"The country is collapsing at the seems and he talks about "strategic interests". Mian jee, get real and get an education, will you ask the 'homeless person' who is scrambling through garbage cans to eat to look after his 'strategic interests'?"
The best statement exposing western elites hollowness. It made me laugh exceedingly.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/03/30/afghanistan/

By Juan Cole
March 30, 2009 | President Barack Obama may or may not be doing the right thing in Afghanistan, but the rationale he gave for it on Friday is almost certainly wrong. Obama has presented us with a 21st century version of the domino theory. The U.S. is not, contrary to what the president said, mainly fighting "al-Qaida" in Afghanistan. In blaming everything on al-Qaida, Obama broke with his pledge of straight talk to the public and fell back on Bush-style boogeymen and implausible conspiracy theories.

Obama realizes that after seven years, Afghanistan war fatigue has begun to set in with the American people. Some 51 percent of Americans now oppose the Afghanistan war, and 64 percent of Democrats do. The president is therefore escalating in the teeth of substantial domestic opposition, especially from his own party, as voters worry about spending billions more dollars abroad while the U.S. economy is in serious trouble.
This latter-day domino theory of al-Qaida takeovers in South Asia is just as implausible as its earlier iteration in Southeast Asia (ask Thailand or the Philippines). Most of the allegations are not true or are vastly exaggerated. There are very few al-Qaida fighters based in Afghanistan proper. What is being called the "Taliban" is mostly not Taliban at all (in the sense of seminary graduates loyal to Mullah Omar). The groups being branded "Taliban" only have substantial influence in 8 to 10 percent of Afghanistan, and only 4 percent of Afghans say they support them. Some 58 percent of Afghans say that a return of the Taliban is the biggest threat to their country, but almost no one expects it to happen. Moreover, with regard to Pakistan, there is no danger of militants based in the remote Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) taking over that country or "killing" it.

The Kabul government is not on the verge of falling to the Taliban. The Afghan government has 80,000 troops, who benefit from close U.S. air support, and the total number of Taliban fighters in the Pashtun provinces is estimated at 10,000 to 15,000. Kabul is in danger of losing control of some villages in the provinces to dissident Pashtun warlords styled "Taliban," though it is not clear why the new Afghan army could not expel them if they did so. A smaller, poorly equipped Northern Alliance army defeated 60,000 Taliban with U.S. air support in 2001. And there is no prospect of "al-Qaida" reestablishing bases in Afghanistan from which it could attack the United States. If al-Qaida did come back to Afghanistan, it could simply be bombed and would be attacked by the new Afghan army."

RiazHaq writes "I think the Obama policy offers an opening to fundamentally change the conflict for Pakistan to facilitate the US exit from the region and preserve Pakistan's strategic interests"

The country is collapsing at the seems and he talks about "strategic interests". Mian jee, get real and get an education, will you ask the 'homeless person' who is scrambling through garbage cans to eat to look after his 'strategic interests'?

TNITC masadi

Obama's "exit strategy" from Afghanistan involves the troops first going to baluchistan and from there towards Iran, leaving their droppings (military bases) in both areas... RiazHaq is a sellout, spineless worshipper of the Americans and their dictators...

TNITC msadi

A picture of US exit strategy from Afghanistan is beginning to emerge as the details of President Barack Obama's new regional strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan are scrutinized.

Explicitly talking to CBS 60 Minutes about exit a week before unveiling his strategy, Mr. Obama said, "So what we're looking for is a comprehensive strategy. And there's got to be an exit strategy. There's got to be a sense that this is not perpetual drift."

I think the Obama policy offers an opening to fundamentally change the conflict for Pakistan to facilitate the US exit from the region and preserve Pakistan's strategic interests, if the Pakistani leadership plays its cards right by addressing a couple of critical differences between the US and Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#137 Posted by hamidm2 on March 29, 2009 7:34:40 pm

why don't you also think of ponies...after all, in pakiworld, thinking of a thing makes it happen..

if wishes were horses....

.... i think pakistan should focus on starting a full fledged rebellion by indian moslems led by deobandis ...... think of all the trouble a hundred and fifty million jihadis can cause!

#135 hurting very bad??

Pakistan must be rejoicing at the aid of 1.5 billion dollors per year for next 5 years.

What have they done to get this free aid, in these recession times.

They export terrorism and get free money.

Re: # 131 "if the indian establishment sits on it's ass, there's not a god damned thing anyone can do.."

I fear that is happening after some initial success. With the various events such as Sri-lanka players attack, Long-march (Sharif/Lawyers) and the upcoming elections in India etc. everybody seems to have forgotten the Bombay attack.

Pakistan is again out of the hook and nothing concrete will get done to stop the terrorism, till the next attack.

arjun:

"in any case, the bombay attack was just a pin prick in the long term."

Maybe, but it has played havoc in the short run, esp. in the tourism industry. I have just returned after spending a few months in India and visiting the places most visited by tourists - Delhi, Mumbai, Kerala and Rajasthan: everywhere, people are complaining about the lack of tourists and how foreigners cancelled their bookings after the Mumbai attack - the showpiece "Palace on Wheels" is running almost empty.

Re: # 29 "Our situation is like poor woman forced in prostitution and Amereca is saying we should enjoy."

LOL....Ho..Ho...Ho...I have never seen a better self-realization from a Pakistani of the current US/Pak relationship.

But on a serious note, I have never understood this strange relationship. Both countries swore to be having strong relations (friendship) and fighting the war on terrorism. But Pakistan has made itself a laughing stock, by getting bombarded by its best friend. I guess America has every right to treat the way they like with Pakistan, as they are paying money for it, without which Pakistan cannot survive. If Pakistan wants its respect and rightful place, first it must stand on its feet and in a rightful manner.

#129 Posted by dost_mittar on March 29, 2009 4:59:16 pm


And finally, I will be happy if I am wrong and Obama does indeed pressure Pakistan to end its clandestine support of jihadis against India.


Now that would be a foolish thing for india to expect obama or anyone else to do. like the bible says(actually it doesn't) god only helps those who helps themselves..

india has many options..crank up the BLA, cut down the water etc etc...if the indian establishment sits on it's ass, there's not a god damned thing anyone can do..

in any case, the bombay attack was just a pin prick in the long term...it will have no real strategic impact on the long term picture..unlike, say, the marriot or lahore attacks....indian randi rona doesn't equate to long term harm...

#127 Posted by dost_mittar on March 29, 2009 4:55:44 pm


I do not see anything in your postings that goes against my interpretation of the events.


You said there was no talk about dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure in pakiland...that clearly isn't the case..


In the long run, however, the Pak strategy of supporting LET while fighting Al Qaeda may work against Pakistan


may? 8000 pakis were whacked just last year by products of the roses are red islamic revolution...

did you hear about the afghan and paki taliban joining forces against the US?

did you read some of the articles people have posted about how the CIA etc think the LeT is part of the global jihad..same as AQ..how the LeT is training brit-pakis, the people most likely to commit the next act of terrorism against the UK...

arjun:

And finally, I will be happy if I am wrong and Obama does indeed pressure Pakistan to end its clandestine support of jihadis against India.

the jihadi genie is out of the bottle...

from the times, UK

How security forces got the message loud and clear from man behind 'Radio Taleban'

Stuart Ramsay

Mohammed Ali is one of the masterminds of the Taleban campaign that has brought the security forces in the Swat Valley to their knees.

On the FM radio system that he helped to set up in Swat to spread the message of the Taleban, he announced the names of people who deserved to die, sometimes adding the names of their children and the schools they attended. He is also regarded as the main strategist behind a two-year suicide bombing campaign against government buildings, military installations, schools and individuals that forced the Government to accept a Taleban-administered mini-state where Sharia is applied.

Using the name Nadar, which means fearless, he told radio listeners: “I like the sound of the death rattle when army people are slaughtered. I want to hear that every day.�

Now in a disguised and guarded safehouse in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, close to the Afghanistan border, he sits in front of me. It is the first time that he has left the Swat region, which was once a holiday resort, for months.

“We follow the law of Islam. The Army burnt 5,551 copies of the Holy Koran. Innocent boys and girls were killed so it does not seem wrong for us to kill someone in that way,� he said. “We are struggling for sharia. We will go to jihad and it will remain to the end of time if they deny us.

“In Pakistan we are struggling to achieve what we have been told we should achieve, and that is sharia through the land. We have relations with our brothers in Afghanistan because they want what we want,� he added.

The fractured grip on power that Islamabad has on Pakistan is causing concern in Britain, the US and India.

Swat, which is 100 miles north of the capital, may never be the same again and the Taleban may not be contained easily there. The elders commanded by Mohammed Ali oversee an organised and brutal militia. Their latest propaganda videos show recruits training at camps in the mountains, where they are taught unarmed fighting techniques, shooting and suicide bomb preparation.

Pakistan denied the existence of the camps but the Taleban said that the videos were filmed only a few weeks ago. A large part of the film is dedicated to suicide bombing. The pictures show young men, grinning with pleasure as their hooded colleagues hug them and congratulate them on their decision to blow themselves up for the cause.

The men are shown strapping on suicide vests or checking cars and vans packed with explosives. The attacks and the aftermath are filmed - the carnage, bodies and grieving relatives are depicted as victories.

In Pakistan the bomb attacks are an almost daily occurrence and have been effective enough in Swat to secure the Taleban a new haven in the heart of Pakistan.

Stuart Ramsay is the chief correspondent for Sky News. Watch highlights of Pakistan: Terror's Front Line on Skynews.com

arjun:

I do not see anything in your postings that goes against my interpretation of the events. For more revealing were the PBS interviews with Holbrook and Gen. Petrias; they both seemed to understand Pakistani ISI's complicity in the Afghan war, but still talked about working with their Pakistani "partners" to deal with the situation.

The way I see it Pakistani and US interests are not in conflict in Afghanistan, they are both eager to prevent Af-Pak territory to be used against Western targets. In the long run, however, the Pak strategy of supporting LET while fighting Al Qaeda may work against Pakistan, as you keep reminding with your "roses are red" song.

kuldip nayyar..i have talked to soldiers who've been on multiple OEF deployments...the whole chain of command is chomping at the bit to take the fight into pakiland..

in fact, last september's special forces raid might have been unique in the sense that it was sort of semi-acknowledged. you can bet your last canadian $$ that there have and will continue to be a lot more..


UK backs Pakistan offensive

Monday, March 30, 2009

News Desk

LONDON: Britain has offered its full backing for a renewed military offensive inside Pakistan, as UK ministers confirmed the country was now “part of a single campaign� alongside Afghanistan.

British Defence Secretary John Hutton said the UK supported targeting Pakistan-based Taliban and al-Qaeda positions and urged Europe to begin offering assistance to eradicate insurgents in the tribal regions bordering Afghanistan.

Confirming that Britain was being drawn into a widening regional conflict, Hutton said the time had come to target the Taliban and al-Qaeda havens inside Pakistan. In his most explicit statement of intent against Pakistan, Hutton said the military objectives in the region must now have “an equal focus on both countries�.

He added: “AQ [al-Qaeda] is in retreat, scuttling across the border into Pakistan. Trying to buy time. Desperate to regroup. That is why there must be no let-up... there can be no escape, no hiding place.�

He indicated that Britain, which has deep historical ties with Pakistan and remains its largest trading partner in Europe, must play a principal role in supporting the US military effort in the region.

The defence secretary said: “In Europe, we can no longer offload the tough questions about how we deal effectively with AQ and the Taliban in Pakistan to the US. “The political burden of dealing with the Pakistan side of the border must be shared. And there are many European countries with strong ties to Pakistan that can more effectively share that burden with America.�

An MoD spokesman said Britain was ready to offer military, political and diplomatic support to a renewed offensive in the tribal lands, but what precisely that entailed was dependent on the resources other Nato members were prepared to offer. However, the initial aim would be to support the Pakistani government, rather than place British forces on the ground inside the country.

Pentagon spokesman Lt-Col Mark Wright told a British newspaper that the US had already offered to launch “joint-military operations� with the Frontier Corps in the tribal areas. Additional military resources are also likely to be deployed to the region once Britain withdraws its 4,000-strong force from Iraq this July, with moves to increase troop numbers in Afghanistan from 8,300 to potentially above 10,000 within a year.

The new-found focus on Pakistan will dominate Nato’s 60th anniversary summit in Strasbourg this week, in which Britain and the US will attempt to drum up more support for the twin Afghanistan and Pakistan — AfPak — mission. Defence officials in Whitehall are increasingly exasperated that, even as the conflict broadens, prominent Nato members are not pulling their weight. Hutton condemned “the massive leadership imbalance� between Europe and the US in Nato. He added: “It’s an imbalance set to grow in the coming months, as America commits vastly more resources of every kind to the mission in Afghanistan.�

"Any group or nation that wants to have successful relations with Pakistan and the Muslim World must respect Islam."

Hah...Nobody in right senses wants to disrespect islam, rather it is the actions of the Islamic followers and Pakistan positioning itself as terrorist epicenter of the world, which is getting them all the (dis)respect and the shame.

95% Afghan Taliban want to reconcile: ex-commander

* Governor of Musa Qila says security concerns keeping most Taliban from defecting to government

MUSA QALA: As many as 95 percent of the Afghan Taliban are willing to lay down their arms but are afraid they will be killed for defecting because the government cannot ensure their safety, a former commander said on Sunday.

The new United States administration says the war cannot be won by military means alone and its strategy review announced on Friday refers to the need to bring some of the insurgents in from the cold. “Ninety-five percent of the Taliban want to reconcile with the government if they can be assured security,� Mullah Abdul Salam, a former high-ranking Taliban commander and now governor of Musa Qala in southern Helmand province, told Reuters.

“But the government of Afghanistan cannot ensure their safety. If they defect to the government, the other Taliban will kill them. They are fighting for their lives,� said Salam. The government must promise to keep safe those insurgents who make peace, Salam said, but most of them are hedging their bets until it is strong enough to do so. The Taliban “are just observing the security situation. At the moment the government is not much stronger than them. When it gets stronger they will come to the government side,� said Salam, once a friend of Taliban leader Mullah Muhammad Omar. Under the Taliban, Salam served as provincial governor for Uruzgan in south Afghanistan, a Taliban stronghold and birthplace of Mullah Omar. Salam said he used to be very close to Omar but the two fell out about 10 years ago. He has not had contact with him since. “I was really close to him. We would meet just like we are here. He was my good friend,� Salam said. “Two years before the 2001 attacks ... I told Mullah Omar: ‘You are forcing the people to pray and this is not a good way to treat the people. Leave them to live their lives’.�

“But he didn’t listen and so after that I didn’t have any contact with him,� Salam said. Like many members of the Taliban, Salam is virtually illiterate having only been educated in a madrassa up to the age of 12. On a glass coffee table in front of him is a signature stamp, which many Taliban commanders often use because they are unable to sign their names.

But what he lacks in education he makes up for in character. Charismatic and larger than life, he is an excellent orator. He grins as he recounts his Taliban days and says he is not against them but does not agree with what they are doing. He said in an interview he is in contact with the Taliban all over Afghanistan and in Pakistan. Salam says he needs more funding to allow intelligence officers to go and talk to the insurgents and wants to set up more police checkpoints to spread governance to a wider area. “If they are not living in a secure area and they join the government, the other Taliban will kill them. I say to the Taliban: ‘Stop killing the people and do business and look after your families’,� Salam said. reuters

daily times...

Editorial: President Obama’s Afghan war roadmap

US President Barack Obama announced his Afghan war strategy on Friday and said things that have both pleased and annoyed different factions of opinion in Pakistan and Afghanistan at the same time. His assertion that “Al Qaeda was a cancer inside Pakistan that was devouring it� doesn’t sit well with people who think Al Qaeda doesn’t exist and, if it does, it represents no danger to Pakistan. His reference to the “blank cheque� that is not to be given to Pakistan has convinced some that this is a tactic of pressure and a harbinger of a tough policy to come from Washington.

But the important fact is that President Asif Zardari has welcomed the new policy and stated that he was consulted on it beforehand. Clearly, it is that part of the package that mentions giving $1.5 billion annually to Pakistan for development in the civilian sector that has appealed to him most. The welcome expressed by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani springs from a similar consideration. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, tackling the difficult aspects of a “regional� approach to the Afghan war in China and Holland, has also expressed approval of the policy, although just a day earlier our Foreign Office was growling over the drone attacks and suggesting that it didn’t care too much about US economic assistance.

The opponents of the “new package�, tripled from what was received by General Pervez Musharraf after he signed on the dotted line after 9/11, complain about the violation of Pakistan’s “sovereignty� through drone attacks to which, significantly, Mr Obama has made no reference. As if receiving a “blank cheque� were a morally correct thing to do, they see in his words a threat of further US intrusion in Pakistan’s domestic affairs. Somehow, “sovereignty� seems to be making a comeback in all homespun nationalist criticism of the US but the same critics are silent over Pakistan’s large chunks of lost territory to non-US “foreigners and anti-state locals� in the tribal areas and in Swat.

What has most upset local critics of President Obama’s plan of action is his comment that “Al Qaeda is actively planning attacks on the US from safe havens in Pakistan. To the terrorists who oppose us, my message is: we will defeat you. We will insist that action be taken, one way or another�, implying that the US intends to act on intelligence against terrorists if Pakistan does not. No reference has been made to the Taliban, perhaps keeping in view the strategic sensitivities of the Pakistan army which our civilian rulers in Pakistan do not fully accept as legitimate national interest.

But the biggest challenge confronting Pakistan in the days to come is actually a challenge to the way the Pakistan army thinks. And it is going to come from the “regional approach� supported by Foreign Minister Qureshi, perhaps on the assumption that Pakistan will have a veto on what the final regional solution to the Afghan crisis is going to be. President Obama says a new “contact group� will be set up which will include Iran in addition to India, China and Russia. All the four “neighbours� in this regional contact group have views that do not fully gibe with Pakistan’s military thinking about the post-conflict status quo in Afghanistan. China, Iran, India and Russia stand behind the Central Asian States that oppose any repetition or extension of the rule of Taliban.

The regional consensus will not be in favour of the dominance of Afghanistan by the Taliban. If Pakistan stands against it, it will be isolated and will not be able to pursue the sort of “military solution� it embraced under General Zia-ul Haq when the Soviet forces wanted to leave Afghanistan after agreeing to a pluralist interim government in Kabul. From 1996 onwards, Pakistan stood isolated in the world when it recognised the Taliban government of Mullah Umar together with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States while the world stood aside and abominated the savagery of the Taliban government. The invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 delivered the last international verdict: Pakistan must adjust to living without the doctrine of “strategic depth� in Afghanistan against India and settle instead for a “neutral Afghanistan� that is at peace with itself and with its neighbours, disallowing any of them from poking their noses into its affairs or using its space and territory to settle their scores against one another.

Once this adjustment is made, Pakistan will be in a better position to combat the scourge of terrorism inside its territory and help cobble a politically neutral Afghanistan with the regional powers and the US. Today, the ambiguity about the “good� Taliban and the “bad� Taliban is rendering Islamabad’s war against terrorism incoherent and self-defeating. The truth is that both kinds of Taliban owe allegiance to Al Qaeda and follow its policies after agreeing with its global aims. *

#118 Posted by dost_mittar on March 29, 2009 1:58:41 pm


- No mention of ending terrorist training camps or dismantling the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan


really?

Pakistan must cut ties with Afghan extremists: Gates

WASHINGTON: US Defence Secretary Robert Gates urged Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency to cut contacts with extremists in Afghanistan who were “an existential threat� to Pakistan. The ISI has had links with extremists “for a long time, as a hedge against what might happen in Afghanistan if we were to walk away,� Gates said on “Fox News Sunday�. “What we need to do is try and help the Pakistanis understand these groups are now an existential threat to them and we will be there as a steadfast ally for Pakistan,� Gates said. “They can count on us and they don’t need that hedge.� agencies

#118 Posted by dost_mittar on March 29, 2009 1:58:41 pm

so now we're predicting reality on obama's rhetoric or the lack thereof..?

wake up and smell the coffee...the 17k first phase of increased deployment isn't so america can hand over afghanistan to pakiland..even if america does withdraw in the future without afghanistan being a jeffersonian democracy, you can bet that america is going to be there for a long time..and pakiland will be in a state of civil war for a long time..



instead increased aid tied to Pakistan being "sincere"


yeah...all the aid in the past 7 years has resulted in so much economic development and prosperity in pakiland...in fact, pakiland is now in such good shape that it might take over kashmir anytime...

of course, reality is that there will be increase in the level of the civil war that will result from the strings being pulled...the damage that will do will far outweigh the 1.5 billion $/yr in aid..

i'll let you in on another secret...american aid means a lot of expensive american consultants and american products that cost 10 times more than they would have if bought in pakiland...

can you think of 3 countries that has been salvaged by american aid in the past? no? neither can i...

Dost,

I'd go with ur points and ur post/thread on UP where u mentioned that LeT and JeM can resume their activities in India (with or without ISI's involvement) as long as they're not killing Americans. Same goes with Afghanistan where Pakistani moles (Taliban) can rule, provided AQ leadership were eliminated.

Whatever Obama mentions as contingency plans (Face the Nation on CBS) are in the realm of speculation but what is spoken is clear that he has a mind of his own. Obama also has broken away from the Bush-era policy towards Pakistan by belittling the established wealth of evidence of Pakistan's direct involvement in the disturbances in Afghanistan.

May be it's back to square one.

This article is a piece of crap.

arjun:

Try to be objective: Here are the realities:

- Obama started out by sounding out as the uber-hawk on Pakistan (for that matter, talking like a hawk before the US-Israeli crowd).

Now, he talks of the "exit strategy"
No talk of restoring democracy in Afghanistan
-No talk of routing out the taleban
-No talk of punishing Pakistan; instead increased aid tied to Pakistan being "sincere". Pakistan claims it has always been sincere. It used to deny any links with the taleban; now some of them are bold enough to claim usefulness of their lines of communications with the taleban with whom a compromise would have to be struck sooner or later, according to them;
- No mention of ending terrorist training camps or dismantling the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan

#115 Posted by dost_mittar on March 29, 2009 1:40:09 pm

that's your take on the "nuances"...a take completely divorced from reality...

we've been here before, remember? in the days after 9/11, capt clueless was telling us pakiland, with uncle sam's wind in her back, was going to sail to economic prosperity..all the while supporting the jihadis and getting india to cough up kashmir..

Re: # 82

Feroz Sahib,"Masadi Sahib has been using the same kind of language for the past 3 or so years he has joined this community."

Thank you for the background and your assessment of masadi.
We should respond by denying masadi(and others like him) on this forum what he craves most: our attention

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

arjun$87:

"seriously...there are pakis who think they can get america to hand over afghanistan to it's taliban proxies AND get america to get india to hand over kashmir to the land of the pure?"

If you are following the changed nuances of the US utterances, the first is not a total impossibility but Barrack Hussein can't do the second even if he wants to.

Why Baki ga.dus make such a big deal of fighting others war. they ave been doing this for last 100s of years. Didn't they fight wars for Arabia on Indian brothers?

Just a few century before you were converted like these folks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLCbTNmU2l8&feature=related
http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr3IB6m9L6s&feature=related

Go to rajeev's presentation on civilizatonal conflict here
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=rajeev+malhotra&emb=0&aq=f#



religion (marxism & capitalism are also abrahmic ga.dugiri) is a devilish concept which caused only pain, exploitation and destruction of people, culture and environmental pollution. bakiland and its foreign policy is just a symptom of this Abrahmic disease.

#105 Posted by Urstruly on March 29, 2009 10:13:28 am

5. ponies...

hey..might as well ask for one...or you'll have to share one with riaz haq...

is this guy riaz haq for real? at least we know where osama bin urstruly is coming from..

dude..pakiland has no cards to play...none..which is why when the US government tells you to forget about a peace deal, you'll have no choice but to send allah's army to fight allah's real army..

seriously...there are pakis who think they can get america to hand over afghanistan to it's taliban proxies AND get america to get india to hand over kashmir to the land of the pure?

che dude? you're the one smoking pot and you're the sane one?

Re: # 109

"It requires give and take. "

As Arjun would say Pak Government takes billions of dollars and gives whacked Paki's. This is the form of "diplomacy" thats been operational since 9/11...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/mar/23/barack-obama-afgh anistan

Simon Tisdall
guardian.co.uk, Monday 23 March 2009

Confused, apparently contradictory, statements by Barack Obama suggest America's new president is having as much trouble as his hapless predecessor in defining US strategy in Afghanistan. Part of the difficulty confronting his policy reviewers is that each time they look, the problem just gets bigger.

Talking at the weekend, Obama sounded more like a college lecturer trying to cover all the bases than a commander-in-chief with a clear plan of action. "We may need to bring a more regional diplomatic approach to bear. We may need to co-ordinate more effectively with our allies. But we can't lose sight of what our central mission is. The same mission we had when we went in after 9/11," he said.

This same-as-before mission to battle al-Qaida and the Taliban presumably explains why Obama is deploying an additional 17,000 combat troops, raising total US and Nato ground forces to about 85,000 by mid-summer. But then he went on to say it would not be business as usual.

"What we can't do is think that just a military approach in Afghanistan is going to be able to solve our problems. So what we're looking for is a comprehensive strategy. And there's gotta be an exit strategy ... There's got to be a sense that this is not perpetual drift."

Obama's talk of developing an "exit strategy" before the reinforcements have even arrived, and with the Taliban showing no sign of giving in, will also raise questions in Afghan minds about US commitment post-Iraq. It could be seen as commendably prudent – or politically glib.

Similar confusion surrounds Obama's plans, or perhaps merely floated ideas, to talk to "moderate" elements of the Taliban. His top commander, General David Petraeus, is also said to be interested in building tribal alliances similar to those forged with Sunni Arabs in central Iraq. The half-offer of negotiations sits ill with Washington's military escalation in Helmand. And Obama's team has been critical of concessions made by Pakistan's government in the tribal areas. Perhaps US generals believe – in defiance of all Afghan history – that they can bludgeon the enemy into talking."

Re: # 105

Urstruly: "Your basic premis is flawed."

Pardon me, but I think you are dreaming if you think you can unilaterally dictate terms to the US. That's not how diplomacy works. It requires give and take.

Urstruly: "A bunch of rent-a-fouj and rent-a-politicians cannot provide leadership."

You've got to do the best you can with what you've got. But I think you're much too cynical to believe anything good can ever come out of any diplomacy between Pak and US. You may have valid reasons for it. However, with that attitude, it's not possible to have any kind of reasonable discussion of the topic.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#105
While youre at it; dont forget to include a partridge an' a pear tree..

Taliban's increased control of Afghanistan and gains in Pakistan are not going to go away any time soon. It's a good news for ppl like Urstruly.

Just watched the full video and Obama. His policy and action plan is devoid of any muscle but more of rhetoric and eloquence. His emphasis is on:

a. Engaging Good Taliban
b. Training Afghan forces and deploying more Amercon forces
c. Enabling Pakistan financially to deflect Talibanic influences by pumping money.

a. Engaging good Taliban is s non-starter as nothing like that exists on ground, even if there're some softer Taliban they'd ultimately toe the line of hard line Taliban who're directly under the command of al-Qaida.

b. There's a latest Journeyman Pictures video showing the widespread drug addiction among Afghan soldiers. Afghan soldiers can't stand up to Taliban on their own. Secondly the western forces in Afghanistan cant be there for ever nor they can be present in all the villages all the time. Obama's policy on this issue is a wishful scenario.

c. Fin support to Pakistan is a good attempt but that wasn't main the problem in Pakistan. Obama lost the focus though he pronounces Pakistan correctly. The ground realities in AfPak region of Pakistan are :

- Minimal administrative, civil police & military control over FATA and NWFP

- Political Islam wedded to Talibani ideology (or vice versa)

- Hidden hands like ISI (if not the whole org but some key ppl whose hearts are with Taliban but working for the Govt of Pakistan & her Army).

- Ruthless al Qaida and their Grand Plans for both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

How much of the new policy of Oabama is going to change the key issues mentioned here? Zilch.

Re: # 105

Oh make that 50 billion Euros; I dont think Us dollar is gonna be worth more than an Italian Lira in very near future. I don't want hamidm to give us his annual salary for couple of years and call it even.

Re: # 101 Riaz

Your basic premis is flawed. A bunch of rent-a-fouj and rent-a-politicians cannot provide leadership. In any case leadership means promoting the interests of the people you claim to represent, and not the agenda of a colonial/imperial power. This is not called being a leader, it is called being an agent. The Negro Bush can bark whatever he wants but what is gonna happen is written on the wall.

However, I did like the word 'exit strategy' in your post. An essential element of that is the declaration of a date date of exit with in next 6 months. An all party conference that should definitely include Taliban could be arranged. It was arranged before in order to facilitate the exit of USSR, why can't it be done again.

But this time:

1. Us must officially apologize to people of Afghanistan and Muslims for revisiting Nazism upon them in this century.

2. US and other European aggressors must pay an annual war ransom of 50 billion dollars to Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan for their naked aggression and acts of genocide for the next 15 years.

3. US must be stripped off of its veto power from UN and its leadership must be tried under international law for acts of genocide and crimes against humanity such as torture and murder.

4. US must cough up all petrodollars in its reserve.

Look, probably you are thinking that I am day dreaming but I am not. If people can bring a vicious animal like Musharaf down in amatter of 3 months then America can be brought down as well.

The US wants the Pak army to fight the Taliban but this is how the US army fights.
You wanna fight with the Taliban in Afghanistan, fight a war not play hide and seek. NO wonder the Pak army is not willing to take losses. They are taking cue from the US forces in Afghanistan.

"There are entire swaths of territory that have been ceded to the militants in Afghanistan. In some cases, entire districts are essentially “no go� areas, starved of development and even regular security resources. The abandonment of these areas - at a cost in Afghan lives - has not resulted in any punishments or reprimands of the commanders who did so. Rather, they were praised for reducing their own casualties.

It is a mindset bred into the very framework of the U.S. Army. If a soldier dies in combat, his or her commanding officer is investigated. A “15-6,� as they are called, is convened by Court Martial authority, and should any fault be found on the commander’s part, his or her career could be destroyed.

“No one has ever gotten a 15-6 for losing a village in Afghanistan,� a Lieutenant Colonel who worked at the U.S. Army’s headquarters in Afghanistan recently said, “but if he loses a soldier defending that village from the Taliban, he gets investigated.�

Under such a threat, can a mid-level Army officer be blamed for taking few risks? The problem is much higher than individual battalion and brigade commanders: a command obsessed over casualties in the short term misses the chance to create an environment that results in fewer casualties over the long term.

In Afghanistan, that process is growing worse by the month: already in January of 2009, casualties were several times higher than they were the previous winter, when fighting is normally at its least intense.

It is that mentality - severe risk aversion, coupled with attention paid to process rather than outcome - that risks ultimately undoing the Western mission in Afghanistan. As an institution, the U.S. Army seems unwilling to make the difficult choices necessary to create the conditions for peace: a population that is adequately protected from the crime, drug, and war lords, and therefore no longer contributing to the desperate regional instability.

It is also a mentality that can be challenged in small doses from below, but demands concerted action from above. Command at the highest levels is vital in changing course, and admitting that war is actually a terrible and ghastly thing that requires your own people dying to win. It is a choice not many at the top seem willing to consider."

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/03/27/guest-contributi on-afghanistans-garrisons/

Dear Nasim

A good article, just a few queries I want to ask you. it is quite easy, ignorant and highly irresponsible for the common Pakistani to blame India for their internal mess.Whether the destruction of 300 girls school in Swat or Marriot Bombings or the attack on Sri Lankan cricketers, a finger is pointed towards Indians. Even the bus driver of the Sri Lankan bus says the attacker looked like Indians, This shows the observation and the caliber of the bus driver and his thinking.
Well I thing the PCB and Pakistan's state administrators might be involved in the Sri Lankan attack. The PCB might have provided valuable inputs to the attackers like the timming of the bus, the number of Lankans in the Bus, the vechile registration number, the bus route. Even the absence of security and the body language of the attackers reveals everything was well-planned. The security people instead of providing security to the Australlian umpires ran away from the scene.
On the other hand the Mullahs demand religious column in passports, now-where in the world u will come across such a thing. Suicide bombings,crime, rape, murder, social unrest has increased substantially. According to british and Amercian experts the whole of Pakistan will become a Taliban country.

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Re: # 91
Urstruly: "isn't what you are suggesting has been tried for the past 8 years, especially under you 'benevolent dictator."

I don't think so. Besides, the relationship and the players have changed on both sides.

For a long time, Bush and Mush both agreed to distinguish between Taliban and Al Qaida, seeing former having local roots and no global jihadi agenda versus Al Qaida as foreigners and global jihadists. That was the right approach.

But then, there was no serious and practical effort to reconcile with the vast majority of the Taliban and eventually the US decision to go after the Taliban and getting Mush to go along with this flawed effort. If you carefully read the words of the new Obama strategy, he only talks about plans to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat Al Qaida" and leaves out the Taliban.

I think this is opening to fundamentally change the conflict to facilitate the US exit from the region and preserve Pakistan's strategic interests, if Pak leadership plays its cards right.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Nasim,

I'd just highlight a few errors.

'The tribal areas in British India were divided in seven agencies..'

I guess there're several dozen agencies in British India. duh!

By now India proper dispensed with all Agencies* but Pakistan kept the Agency system till date? Why?

'Any group or nation that wants to have successful relations with Pakistan and the Muslim World must respect Islam.'

Diplomacy as we know is a 2-way traffic, buddy. Why it's a precondition of 'respect for Islam' for having state2state relations with Pakistan?

'The answer lies (British ruling India) in their deep understanding of the culture and traditions of the local population.'

It's the servile nature of Indians and fearsome police and administration that kept India under British rule. Do u think it's their 'deep understanding of Indian traditions and culture' that enabled British rule India for so long?

There's a lot to write but this is enuf for now.

* British Indian govt wasn't in a position to administer the whole of India by itself. Therefore they depended on satraps, fiefs and tribal heads and political agents (who by default expressed allegiance to the Crown). Where there're urbanised clusters, trading ports and agri-hinterlands they ruled directly coz of massive land & trade income and availability of goods for British economy and industry.

Where there're established Princes and the same were ready to concede suzerianty, they allowed lota Princes to rule & finally where there're no established kingdoms, they allowed tribal chiefs & where the human settlements are few and far between Brits settled for Agents.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/03/obama-yup-were.html

Obama: Yup, We're at War in Pakistan (Updated Again)
By Noah Shachtman

Perhaps you were wondering whether or not the U.S. was really at war in Pakistan, as well as Afghanistan. Well, President Obama just put those questions to rest.

With everyone from Hillary Clinton to Robert Gates to General David Petraeus at his side, Obama announced this morning "a comprehensive, new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan." Not Afghanistan, with an occasional cross-border drone strike. Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That is the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just."

Obama also made it clear that the military won't just go after the militants sowing mayhem in Afghanistan, but the ones undermining Pakistan's government, too. Specifically, Obama all-but-called-out Pakistani militant leader Baitullah Mehsud, the leading suspect in the assassination of Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and the September 2007 bombings in Rawalpindi, which killed 25. In recent weeks, American drones have hit his network, over and over again.


The terrorists within Pakistan’s borders are not simply enemies of America or Afghanistan – they are a grave and urgent danger to the people of Pakistan. Al Qaeda and other violent extremists have killed several thousand Pakistanis since 9/11. They have killed many Pakistani soldiers and police. They assassinated Benazir Bhutto. They have blown up buildings, derailed foreign investment, and threatened the stability of the state. Make no mistake: al Qaeda and its extremist allies are a cancer that risks killing Pakistan from within.

It is important for the American people to understand that Pakistan needs our help in going after al Qaeda. This is no simple task. The tribal regions are vast, rugged, and often ungoverned. That is why we must focus our military assistance on the tools, training and support that Pakistan needs to root out the terrorists. And after years of mixed results, we will not provide a blank check. Pakistan must demonstrate its commitment to rooting out al Qaeda and the violent extremists within its borders. And we will insist that action be taken – one way or another – when we have intelligence about high-level terrorist targets.

Earlier today, at least 48 people were killed in a suicide attack on a mosque in northwest Pakistan. Local officials blamed Mehsud's Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan for the blast.

UPDATE: Here's the white paper on Af/Pak that the White House sent Congress. And here's Obama's full remarks from this morning.

UPDATE 2: The Unforgiving Minute author Craig Mullaney, rumored to be the next Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Central Asia, thinks the increased non-military aid to Pakistan may be just as important as the commitment to schwack the country's insurgents. Obama asked Congress today to pass a bill co-sponsored by John Kerry and Richard Lugar that authorizes $1.5 billion per year in civilian support for Pakistan over five years. That's triple the cash given now.

To Mullaney, it's a "move away from a transactional relationship with the Pakistani military, to a more enduring commitment directly with the Pakistani people." And it's a "recognition that you can no more apply a solely military approach in Pakistan than in Afghanistan."

So this is like a stimulus package for Central Asia? "Kind of," he laughed. "Except the difference in Pakistan and Afghanistan is that the unemployed sign up with the Taliban and stat shooting at American soldiers."

[Photo: via Eldib]

What a clown is Riaz is ! It just shows you, whether you have a paki from an extremist madressah or one from a fancy US background certain things wont change - delusional thinking, believing that west "owes us something" and that somehow kashmir must be handed to the pakistani jihadis.

Other pakistani interactors - please help me understand this. Is there some special indoctrination that takes place at an early age? Is there a book of "muslim grievances and just causes" that every family has? I mean the brainwashing and stupidity is really impressive....

Khyber #67 on nawaz sharif - you use the term "lohar" as a pejoritive. In fact, being a "lohar" is an honorable profession - it means manufacturing iron-based products. One can only hope that Nawaz Sharif is able to use his "lohar" experience to build up the economy of Pakistan as well.

And far from forgetting his own lawless days as PM when he shamelessly attacked the Supreme Court, Nawaz Sharif has clearly redeemed himself by not repeating that same mistake twice by taking up Zardari's invitation to join him in retaining Musharraf's corrupt judges and thus jointly ruling over Pakistan.

Think about that..

Khyber #67 on nawaz sharif - you use the term "lohar" as a pejoritive. In fact, being a "lohar" is an honorable profession - it means manufacturing iron-based products. One can only hope that Nawaz Sharif is able to use his "lohar" experience to build up the economy of Pakistan as well.

And far from forgetting his own lawless days as PM when he shamelessly attacked the Supreme Court, Nawaz Sharif has clearly redeemed himself by not repeating that same mistake twice by taking up Zardari's invitation to join him in retaining Musharraf's corrupt judges and thus jointly ruling over Pakistan.

Think about that..

Re: # 93 Mr. Jayp ... at least you find something good in your whole life from pakistan. Please see blog by Prof Riazhaq.
Kindly ready story about solar and wind engergy plans in pakistan you will be surprised.
Your mild will blown off if you read story of pilotless drone machine. It was developedin pakistan and usa copied that machine and improved which is todays final version a advanced copy of pakistani pilotlessairmachine.Unfortunately this copiedimproved droneis used against pakistan is irony.

Re: # 91 Mr. U I agree with you. One definition of romantic stupid/ fool is to do same thing and except different results.Now usa was throwing some , one billion dollars to "
Pakistan company of USA" resoults are bad. They are increase in aid this will lead tomore troubles. American want to economise their military deaths so Pakistani people have to get killed. Last time america could not control VC , VC made cambodia strategic depth, so americans starts raining bombs results VC survived and combodia was pulvaried and finished. Exactly same happening,pakistan western lands have become strategic depth or refuge and rest and grouping plaace for taliban and it is not done by any body not by pakistan govt as they have no control. Frustrated American send missiles and reguees start pouring ,its not their fault. They are helpless just like Cambodia. This is unfolding at least gop should not cooperate in bound to loose games. Gop still trying to appaese usa for little cash is selling ropes to usa and usa will one day airlift to usa and those talibs will hang us.
I never understand logic when you know what you are doing is wrong why repeat same and expect different but elites of army believe in miracles. Old time when people were good miracles do happened and I believe but now days miracles do not happen.
Good day.

UK varsity awards PhD to Pakistani student
Sunday, March 29, 2009
Islamabad

The University of Manchester has awarded a Pakistani student, Shehzad Khalid, with a PhD degree in Computation after he attended the university as a regular student for four years in Manchester, says a press release.

////////////from jang//////////

Good to see such a fantastic prime time news. When most of the news about pakistanis is about the ones getting arrested for terrorism, this is a good one.

News of this type will be on the decline as most countries are refusing visas for pakis. One should cut this out and frame it, as the last paki good news from abroad..

Fear & panic grips residents of Lalkurti
Sunday, March 29, 2009
Khalid Iqbal

Rawalpindi

Fear and panic gripped the residents of Lalkurti and Tahli Mohri Saturday morning after the police announced that a suicide attacker had entered the area for a terror act.

The police blocked all the roads and intersections around Lalkurti, Tahli Mohri, Kalma Chowk, Dhamial Road, Dhoke Sheraan, Tulsa Road, Sher Zaman Colony, Dheri Road and New Lalazar Road early in the morning. Mostly schools were closed but the schools that were functional were directed to close their gates. The police also directed the managements of schools to restrict the students within the premises.

The police immediately blocked the roads with barricades and continued frisking people and were not allowing motorcyclists in the area.

//////////////from jang///////////////

This is a new tactic by the police to confuse the issue by stating that a terrorist has come to rawalpindi as though these guys are from afar, sort of foreign involvement, as the pakis say in the case of attack on the srilankans.

Take it from me, these terrorists are one among the millions of madrassa products, they are your next doot neighbor. Do not forget the lal masjid, they were armed to the teeth to finish of the neighbors.

Re: # 73 Riaz

I am glad that we see each other as the core of the problem. That is more like it.

On a separate note, isn't what you are suggesting has been tried for the past 8 years, especially under you 'benevolent dictator. And look where are we standing today. The state is on the verge of collapse. The Combodia syndrome is just a matchstick strike away. Isn't it sheer madness to keep doing it just because amrika is paying some sellouts?

The author writes "Globalization has positive aspects as well. The diseases and natural disasters in faraway places are immediately known around the world."

There are zero positive aspects of globalization carried out through international institutions that are dominated by the U.S/European elite period. Knowing about something could well be accomplished in the telegraph age if helping humanity was the concern but that has never been elite concern now has it, what difference will the internet make when the desire for information is only for domination and control?

TNITC masadi

mian jee they create news, they write history unlike your kind of dimwits...
---
Thank you very much for you honest comments. Let me accept your contention. So we can agree on that first they create the news and then react to it and the cycle of stupidity continues.

Isn't who came first chicken or egg a better example?
I mean these guys are doing the same thing for the last eight years.

#87, rather it is about "creating news"- the daily news itself relies on government/corporate sources and gives preference to cover those events that fit in with the ongoing elite ideology....get a goddamned education. They are more than 8 people of course but they might as well be one because their class interests guide them in a predetermined way...."reacting to the daily news"....mian jee they create news, they write history unlike your kind of dimwits...

TNITC masadi

Mr. Asadi there are more than Eight persons in charge of the US policy in Afghanistan. In fact there is no policy. It is all about reacting to the daily news!

riaz haq....i told you..you should have asked for ponies...that was more realistic...

No Kashmir talks: US
By Anwar Iqbal
Sunday, 29 Mar, 2009 | 12:17 AM PST |

WASHINGTON: US National Security Adviser Gen. James Jones has said that the United States will not get involved in resolving the Kashmir dispute despite its desire to lessen tensions between India and Pakistan.

But top US military official Admiral Mike Mullen acknowledged that lessening tensions over Kashmir would allow Pakistan to focus on fighting the militants hiding along the Pak-Afghan border.

The two US officials were briefing the media on President Barak Obama’s new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan he announced in a nationally televised speech on Friday.

‘We don’t intend to get involved in that issue, but we do intend to help both countries build more trust and confidence so that Pakistan can address the issues that it confronts on the western side of the nation,’ said Gen. Jones.

‘But no, Kashmir is a separate issue,’ said the US national security adviser if the United States would also help resolve the Kashmir dispute to enable Pakistan to focus on its western border.

‘But we think that the times are so serious that we need to build the trust and confidence in the region, so that nations can do what they need to do in order to defeat the threat that I discussed a few minutes ago,’ he said.

Admiral Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, told CNN he hope the new US ‘regional approach’ would try to reduce tensions over Kashmir, allowing Pakistan to re-deploy troops away from arch-enemy India and to Afghan border areas.

In the new policy, President Obama stressed the need for developing a ‘regional approach’ for defeating extremism and said he would like to involve India, Iran, China, Central Asian republics and the Gulf countries in this fight.

The fact that you all pick on the "nuisance and pain" and ignore all the points I make says "volumes" for the real reason why you make a big deal of my quite mild language: brown sahib, sell out, shallow etc. The reason is that you want to obfuscate what I write based on a narrowly defined Western morality that is hypocritical to the core....RiazHaq is a poster child of that kind of mentality...

TNITC masadi

Masadi Sahib, if you say so. But what exactly is it that you want to get across by being such a nuisance and pain in the ass of everyone who is trying to have a legitimate discussion? Not only you keep getting banned, but you get others so worked up that they end up getting banned too.

And yes, when you write with a sober head, your work is of high quality, but when you express yourself the way you do here, you lower expectations. And you should be least concerned about what I think of the quality of your work. I am not much of an expert .

Kulharee writes "Intellectually he is about the level of a sewer rat, with apology to sewer rats"

People who read what I write know my original contributions to the Chowk community and beyond. Kulharee himself the miserable hypocrite was signing the praises of my intellectual contribution on unplugged and elsewhere, recently he said my articles were much beyond the magazine caliber of these articles and I should publish in the AJS. Now the hypocrite makes an about turn....keep apologizing to sewer rats, they will be your new neighbors when the capitalist system is done with this recession....

TNITC masadi

Riaz Sahib, it doesn’t take much for Masadi Sahib to throw tantrums. You appear to be new here at Chowk. Masadi Sahib has been using the same kind of language for the past 3 or so years he has joined this community. His total donation over the years here can be summarized in one short paragraph. His answer to every problem ends with blaming the US Elite without offering any original thoughts or even an argument. Intellectually he is about the level of a sewer rat, with apology to sewer rats. He is a one trick pony. What I wanted to say to you was that Sir, let him throw a little tantrum here on the web, and we all should be grateful that he is here and not outside getting beaten up by Brown people.

"Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide "

Please grow up....imbecile

TNITC masadi

RiazHaq writes "You should be grounded by Chowk admin for such serious misbehavior."

Even though I am very touched by your mannerism and sensibilities (not), your calling for my banning is more outrageous than my calling you a brown sahib and a sell out to the US- which by your posts you appear to be. I don't need to know a damn thing about you to conclude thus while you have traced my entire biography from kg to the current regarding morality....you miserable hypocrite....

TNITC masadi

correction: Unless you understand and endorse this pov you will be playing the role of brown sahib....in your words, you'll be part of the problem and not the solution...

TNITC masadi

RiazHaq your posts in this cat and mouse game between the higher thugs and the mullahs are definitely tilted towards the Americans and in your outrageous illiteracy you think that America wants to fix things in Afghanistan and that its criticisms of Pakistan are genuine. Mian jee the US tactics and methodology speaks volumes regarding it wanting to keep the chaos and escalate. Unless you understand and endorse it you will be playing the role of brown sahib....

TNITC masadi

#68 Posted by Urstruly on March 28, 2009 6:48:30 pm


the american backed puppet who incinerated 2000 school girls with phosphores bombs


it went up from 1000 to 2000 in a little over a year? did the dead ninja chix have babies in that period?

Re: # 75

masadi,

What prompted your gratuitous and very personal and outrageous attack on me?

Such a sweeping generalization about someone you know very little about? Are you totally incapable of any civil discourse? Didn't any one teach you in kindergarten to be nice to others? I think you (and others like you on this forum) are in serious need of a major verbal spanking to get you to behave yourself. You should be grounded by Chowk admin for such serious misbehavior.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq on the other hand is a shallow sellout to the Americans and their cultural hegemony around the globe, he is a brown sahib in the best tradition of brown sahibs cultivated by the West to buffer the dictators and thugs from the people of pakistan....

Urstruly writes "what are you a moron, who couldn't cash himself? "

No, I'm TNITC masadi, whose posts send both the imperialists and the mullah thugs running to their mammas and the chowk staff scrambling for the "you are banned" button.....Roos never had anything to do with my pov~ higher morality than your types can ever accomplish has something to do with it....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 68

Urstruly "What do you think about the american backed puppet who incinerated 2000 school girls with phosphores bombs and fouji mercenaries just a couple of years ago"

In the response to the Red Mosque tragedy, for which the Red Mosques mullahs are at least as culpable as the military, do you think Pakistanis should crown the Taliban and Al Qaeda as the new rulers of Pakistan? If you do, then you are advocating destroying everything that Jinnah and Iqbal envisioned. It makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 70

Oye Roos ke chaprasi, you don't count anymore. We have cut you down to your actual size and put you in the place where you rightfully belong. All of your former cohorts now get their salaries from amrika to be libral, what are you a moron, who couldn't cash himself?

correction: The mullahs seldom grasp any "reality" other than the one involving halwa that "hits the spot" so to speak. Halwa for the mullah is an epiphany......

Urstruly to Riashaq, "who incinerated 2000 school girls with phosphores bombs.."

What is tragic in the mullah's use of this incident is the flip side of what was tragic in Bush using the "liberate woman" slogan in order to invade Afghanistan. Both of these thugs consider women to be worthy of contempt, both oppress women and want them to be child bearers and khansamas and nannies- yet when it comes to their ulterior motive they tout examples of the injustice to women and children because in their perverted world view, women and children need men's "protection". Go to hell morons and take your dirty protection with you- hear this message coming loud and clear from all women of the world that understand your shenanigans....

TNITC masadi

RiazHaq writes to Urstruly :"I think you completely fail to grasp the reality of the situation..."

The mullahs seldom grasp any "reality" other than the one than the halwa that "hits the spot" so to speak. The only reason they have nuisance value in Pakistan is due to their 'villian' status in the melodramatic play that America is directing titled, "The Global War on Terrorism". These thugs want to feed it, because without it they are nothing, have never been anything and will never amount to anything. What these thugs don't care about is the fact that in playing America's game, they will grind the vast majority of Pakistanis to the bone, the vast majority who don't want any part of either the imperialist thugs or the mullah thugs...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 66

"Abbasydes" Ummayid" "fanatics" what the hell are you talking about? What do you think about the american backed puppet who incinerated 2000 school girls with phosphores bombs and fouji mercenaries just a couple of years ago. Is that fanaticism too? There might have been a way found for reconciliation wth Americans and those who support their murderous aggression hadn't Americans backed this vicious ,murder of school children. Don't you understand that it was state - the corrupt puppet elite - who declared war on us - the people of Pakistan with this heinous crime, not us. ab koi maafi nahin hay. No mercy.

#50 tahmed32...Lets put it this way,in Jinnah's PAKISTAN THERE are four differant nations live and they have 4 different mentalities,as a Punjabi if you love Nawaz sharif I can't be mad at you,I have several Punjabi friends in NEW YORK and they also think that like NAWAZ LUHAR is a god,Zardari and Nawaz are not sincere to each other and that is not helping Pakistani people who are poor and selling kids and kidneys.Nawaz is talking about REVOLUTION but that REVOLUTION is only for Nawaz not for Pakistani people.Nawaz Sharif is once again trying to revive Pujabi chauvinism in Pakistan ,’’ Jaag Punjabi Jaag Teri Pag Noon Lag Gaya Daagh. “� Obviously what Nawaz Sharif promised the nation, was not a revolution in the real sense but merely a regime-change to his liking.Nawaz Sharif talks about NRO but he forgets about his agreement with dictator Musharaf, he talks about judiciary but forgets his attack on supreme court, he talks about media but forgets what he did to Rehmat Shah Afridi of FP ,Jang Group and others, he forgets what he did to Junejo. He talks about democracy but he forgot it while making forward block .Nawaz Sharif needs power and his style of revolution for power and money .Where was his revolution when Nawaz Sharif spent his time at Surror Palace in Jeddah and then in England and poor Pakistanis were selling kids and kidneys ? or committing suicide because of poverty???Nawaz Sharif is not only a corrupt politician he has sympathies with Osama bin laden, Alquida and Taliban. According to a former ISI official , Nawaz Sharif met OSAMA BIN LADEN and received funds from him, he met OSAMA three times and desperately asked for financial assistance. Bin Laden, who had offered him money to topple the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) government of BENAZIR BHUTTO in 1990. Al Qaeda head wanted the “secular� PPP government overthrown to ensure that Pakistan continued supporting the Afghan “jihad� and LADEN was against a woman ruling Pakistan. . Nawaz met Osama thrice in Saudi Arabia ,this meeting was arranged by former ISI official Khalid Khawaja . Sharif is on record stating he would prefer Pakistan to be run like the Taleban ran Afghanistan, and we all know how well that turned out.Beyond the blood on Sharif's hands, his corruption and that of his brother are on a vast scale. At the time of his removal from office, Nawaz Sharif and his brother Shabaz had looted approximately $60 million from people of Pakistan, via their personally owned companies.
Sharif's desire for power is even greater than his respect for innocent life. Convicted for hijacking, he put the lives of 198 people on a plane in jeopardy by refusing to allow it to land. So you want that kind of leader for Pakistan???

Re: # 64

Urstruly: "US must fail in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq period. There are no ifs ands or buts. Pakistan is only safe today because US is unstable in Afghanistan."

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think you completely fail to grasp the reality of the situation. The reality is that the Muslims today are dealing with a repeat of the anarchy within Islam that prevailed during the Ridda wars and later periods when the Abbasids and Ummayyads were brought down by a bunch of fanatics who pushed for blind faith over reason. The ongoing battle for rationality within Islam will be lost to the irrational forces of bigotry and darkness if Al Qaeda and Taliban succeed. People such as yourself who live in Pakistan will be the main victims of such a disastrous outcome. Please don't let the hatred of US blind you from seeing this reality.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 64

Urstruly sahib:

"...Pakistan is only safe today because US is unstable in Afghanistan...."

Can you please explain this?

Are you saying that if Afghanistan becomes stable, then Pakistan will become unstable?

Re: # 55 Riaz

We live on two different planets perhaps. The premis of my argument is simple - US must fail in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq period. There are no ifs ands or buts. Pakistan is only safe today because US is unstable in Afghanistan. The propaganda machinery in US pumps anti-Muslim hatered into US masses which even surpasses that which happened in Nazi Germany. These bhenchods would have destroyed us 8 years ago hadn't 2 million iraqis and 1 million Afghans laid down their lives and broken crusader resolve.

RiazHaq "If the lobby was really strong, Pakistan would have been declared a to be a part of axis-of-evil and branded as a state sponsor of terror long time ago."

A lot of time has passed since 911. US has realized that the ISI is playing a "double" game-something that India is saying all along. They know that the state is sponsoring terror; but to let Pakistan sink is an unimaginably horrible prospect. They've figured the best way to keep Pakistan afloat is to throw money at it.

Alas, I'm afraid all this aid will be wasted & Pakistanis will continue to curse the US.

When will Pakistan have the balls & say "take your money & shove it?!" I can understand why guys like Urstruly are pissed at the foujis & GoP. The only people with balls are the Taliban. They are doing something about it. Everybody else in Pakistan is taking American money & cursing them.

Riaz:

Neither Obama nor previous administrations were driven out of goodness of their hearts. There is a reality and there is a handwriting on the wall. Obama wanted Clinton to be the special envoy for Kashmir. What happened? It has been happening in the past and would continue to happen in the future.

Indian position may be disadvantaged, only when Pakistan gets it normalcy back. In the west, rightly or wrongly, "Islam" is no longer synonymous with terror, and its peaceful side dominates first among its believers, rather than OBL's side is dominant, visible and understood. Till then no country, no president will have courage to surgically remove a portion of its people (however they may have been influenced) will remove them from a however defective democratic set up, and throw them into the fire of Islamic fundamentalism of OBL / Al Qaeda kind.

This is a reality, you have not presented anything in your points to rebut it.

I agree with you that fresh water is going to be a global problem. It is the next crisis in waiting. The U.S. empties Colorado River before it goes into Mexico. This is just one example. If you look at the history of human migrations, people migrated with the movement of rivers. No one can stop it.

Global warming is projected to produce rise in sea levels. This can drown very large portion of Bangladesh.

Where do you think this population move? If you cannot guess it, let me tell you, it will be into India. No power on this Earth would be able to stop it. In this case too, as in the case of river waters, there is a migration. This is nothing new, Riaz. Yes, wars were fought then and wars would be fought again, if need be. This is all in the future.

Most problems, including water treaty between India and Pakistan was negotiated and is regarded as the most active treaty which is still being honored.

My prediction is that even after the war over water, India and Pakistan (in whatever shape and form they survive) will come to table and negotiate. Neither can annihalte the other, as many, including Islamic warriors, did in the past. There are more people per square meter, than ever. Capturing their mind space is more important to solve controversial issues. American learnt it a very hard way in Iraq. Behind all this sharade of AfPak theater, American money will go into the region to first divide and then maintain a chaotic buffer in that part of the world. This is the way for America to make an exit. This is how most foreigners managed, and locals fought to deal in the past.

In Iraq there is oil, in that part of the world there is nightmare.

Please do write your answers to my questions in the previous post, if you wish. I would love to read your views.

Re: # 58
anil: "Hamidm sahib’s position is best for Pakistan to retire it to the back burner. My generation could not solve it. I highly doubt yours would solve it either."

Obama's outward stance of avoiding Kashmir as part of the new regional strategy is obviously flawed, unless the US is stepping up efforts in the background to arm-twist Indians to make concessions on Kashmir.

As is often said, the India-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir is much more about Indus water than about a piece of land. The headwaters of the Indus River are located in Kashmir. Whomever controls the headwaters, controls the river. The Indus is vital. It brings green fertile life wherever it flows. The Indus begins in Kashmir, then flows through Pakistan, then flows into mainland India. If India chose, since Kashmir is controlled by it, they could dam the Indus and change the flow of the river, as they are apparently doing at Baglihar over Chenab. Without fertile land to grow crops, Pakistan would become a desert and its people would starve.

So the resolution of Kashmir dispute will remain a source of great tensions and possibly lead to a catastrophic war in the region devastating South Asia.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

bwahaha...hey riaz...like i said, you should have asked for ponies...

AfPak has nothing to do with Kashmir: US
Published: March 29, 2009

WASHINGTON - While President Barack Obama’s strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan includes efforts to build trust and confidence between India and Pakistan, it will absolutely not include any efforts to bring about a solution of the Kashmir dispute, the Presidential National Security Adviser General James Jones said on Friday.
“We do not intend to get involved that issue, but we do intend to help both countries ... build more trust and confidence so that Pakistan can address the issues that it confronts on the western side of the nation,� he told foreign correspondents at a briefing on Friday following the release of the new “AfPak� policy review.
“Kashmir is a separate issue. But we think that the times are so serious that we need to build the trust and confidence in the region, so that nations can do what they need to do in order to defeat the threat that I discussed a few minutes ago,� Gen Jones added.
Asked by a Pakistani journalist to expand on President Obama’s remarks on a regional approach and whether it would encourage discussions on the Kashmir issue “to turn the heat down in the region so that Pakistan can focus totally on the war on terror,� Jones made it clear that the US would stay clear of the decade-old dispute between India and Pakistan.
DISAPPOINTMENT
In making that categorical statement, the US has wheeled back from initial indications that Washington would now take a more active role in the matter as an outcome of the policy review. As a presidential candidate, Obama had even talked about appointing a special envoy for Kashmir. Far from doing that, his administration has even ruled out any possibility of pressurising India to budge from its intransigent stand on the Kashmir dispute.
With the composite Indo-Pakistan dialogue already stalled, analysts said Jones’s statement was a blow to Pakistan’s hopes of seeking American help in resolving the dispute.
Expressing disappointment, diplomatic observers here wondered how the mistrust and tensions between the two South Asian neighbours could be addressed without any movement on the Kashmir problem.

#55 Posted by RiazHaq on March 28, 2009 12:21:58 pm

you should ask for a pony while you're at it...it would be just as stupid and just as likely..

Riaz:

“…especially when you have Zardari playing Holbrooke…�

When you say the above you show an endemic problem, which is to put down the leadership after a short lived euphoria. In democracy that is what happens when a leader is elected, he/she gets to rule unless removed no-confidence vote in parliamentary democracy, or through impeachment in presidential form of democracy. These are the cards that are dealt, so play with them to win. The biggest threat to Pakistani democracy is the impatient among dominant Punjabi group. Nawaz Sharif sneezed in Punjab and suddenly there was euphoria. Zardari was bad, Nawaz was great. There seems to be a tendency to worship persons more than an institution. I hate to break it to you, knowing your views on however defective Indian democracy, “vote is worshipped�. All corrupt or otherwise politicians know that they must have votes to get power; no one otherwise can come to power.

The speculation was ripe of impending coup. There was lauding of Gen. Kiyani dictating an elected government, he is the one who is servant to the elected officials

Why would you not instead write about how to deal with Halbrooke & Co. within the Pakistani framework? Why would you not write about how make elected politicians keep their fights inside legislative assemblies? Pakistan will be there even after you and I have left this world, what form will it be is a fundamental debate that has been going on for almost 60 years.

I know in your rush to equate Pakistani democracy with Indian democracy, you wrote below as if fights do not break out in other democratically elected assemblies. You cited democracy and its link to industrialization in East Asia, and pronounced your marvelous equation of two democracies in India and Pakistan in the same group. Why is this so necessary for you, and many other Pakistanis?

All you have to do is “YouTube� a little more, to find about the fist fights in Taiwanese, Korean and yes even Japanese assemblies. It seems there is some complex that you are exposing. The antagonists at Chowk see this as an opportunity to squeeze laddus harder.

“And Indian lobby is not strong enough to stop it. Indian lobby's strength is overhyped, just as India's democracy and progress�

What is the relevance of India in your point? None, I may say so. This is yet another example of complex and opportunity for others to squeeze laddus.

The only connection, however defective India with defective democracy has is Kashmir. This time too India trumped it, as it has been doing so forever, as far as I can remember. Hamidm sahib’s position is best for Pakistan to retire it to the back burner. My generation could not solve it. I highly doubt yours would solve it either.

Today’s London Times headlines “Obama: Pakistan is now part of our war�. To most it means Pakistan is going to be a battlefield for your generation to fight till finish. Longevity of modern day wars is that it will at least last till Pakistan delivers OBL & Co. or dramatic shift takes place. If Pakistan is smart, it will deliver these murderers and push chaos back into Afghanistan, while Obama & Co. pours billions more.

Is there a leadership in Pakistan to think Pakistan first and not itself first to line up its pockets? That is the question for you to answer.

Can you answer this question, while you are seething in anger and burning in the fire of upmanship?

Please think again, Riaz. India is no longer a balm for your injuries, let antagonists be what they are, simply antagonist.

Re: # 56

Shankar: "Its because they cant twist America's arm (or don't want to--the money's too good)."

That's an issue of negotiating skills and competence. The money can and should be much better in exchange for genuine partnership. No matter how good your cards, it is hard to win if you don't know how to play....especially when you have Zardari playing Holbrooke. But eventually, the compliance US seeks will not produce the desired results. Holbrooke's arm-twisting skills will not succeed unless the US acknowledges and deals with Pakistan's genuine concerns. If Holbrooke is really smart, he will recognize that. And Indian lobby is not strong enough to stop it. Indian lobby's strength is overhyped, just as India's democracy and progress. If the lobby was really strong, Pakistan would have been declared a to be a part of axis-of-evil and branded as a state sponsor of terror long time ago.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Haq ji,

Pakistan has had these cards (threatening to cut off supplies) for a long time; forcing India to comply on Kashmir) .Why havent they played them as yet? Its because they cant twist America's arm (or don't want to--the money's too good). Without aid Pakistan's economy will tank.

Besides, the Indian American lobby is pretty strong, & getting stronger. They successfully managed to limit Holbrook's role to Af-Pak only.

Re: # 54

Urstruly, "A win win solution is impossible."

If you start with that premise, then it will become impossible. However, if you seriously explore the objectives and what cards each side can play, then it will not only be possible but very likely to have win-win relationship with US.

To start with, we must agree it is in the interest of both sides to stop attacks terror attacks that kill mostly Muslims but also threaten the Americans.

Then look at what each side wants to give and take to get to that objective.

For example, Pakistan is extremely critical to the US for it to get rid of Al Qaeda which is a global terrorist outfit headquartered in Afghan-Pak border areas. Over 80% of the supplies for US and NATO forces pass through Pak territory. The alternatives to Pakistan route are few and not as workable. In return for these supplies, Pakistan can and should demand that all attacks on Pak territory by US stop forthwith and the US provide Pak with the resources to deal with its internal conflict and economic crisis.

The US also wants Pakistan to stop focusing on India and pay more attention to the Western front. Pakistan should make it conditional upon the US and international community putting real serious pressure on India to resolve Kashmir and, if India doesn't respond positively, to threaten to pull out the US companies and investments from India. This will bring India to its knees in short order, as it did in 2002 when the US state dept and British foreign office issued a negative travel advisory and GE and other western companies started pulling out their people from India. The scenes of the foreigners flocking to the airports forced India/BJP to pull its troops back from the Pak border and start talks with Mush.

The US wants ISI to cut ties with Taliban. Instead of complying, Pakistan should persuade the US to see ISI-Taliban ties as assets that will be used to try and reconcile with the vast majority of the Taliban and stop the violence in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

These are just a few ideas that should be seriously explored for Pakistan to build an alliance with the US, rather than compliance as demanded by the US.



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 40

A win win solution is impossible. The christian-zionist religious nuts in washigton have put some irreversible processes in place. So if they win, it would mean our slavery and colonial occupation and if we win it would mean collapse of American empire across the globe.

Please do present your win-win; I am all ears.

Re: # 35

Oye fouji tout. I don't live in usa and hav'nt for many years now. Stop supporting your haramkhor fouj. Look, what is worst is supporting and encouraging haramkhori than the haramkhori itself. Your fouj is a bunch of cowards, incompetent and sell outs. Your kind has sold our country cheap. Except couple of thousand haramkhors in our society of which major portion is of fouji gandoos, no one supports or wants to make money out of your "supply chain". And laa'nat ands allah's curse be upon those who support it and are actively involved in it.

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Romair,

((are you, seriously, stating that muslims have not been wronged, in the present world......))

I'm not saying they have been wronged. However, historicall EVERYBODY--muslims, hindus , buddhist , jews have been wronged.

Coming to contemporary Pakistan, muslims have killed more muslims than hindus ever have. I'm not counting East Pakistanis. Even today, the Taleban are beheading muslims who dare to oppose them. Heck, even yesterday somebody blew up a mosque for Christs' sake. Now is RAW/Mossad/CIA behind this?

Its very easy to blame kafirs for this problem.


{{do another calucation....how many muslim lands are occupied by non-muslims and vice versa......again the same result......}}

Yo! these "muslim" lands were first owned by hindus, jews & christians. Now, when the shoe is on the other foot, you cry foul. Get over this wronged, martyred attitude; you guys are just as guilty as the rest of us.

""the usa has absolutely no ethical and moral right of being in iraq.""

This is completely agree. I bought GWB's bs that there were WMD in Iraq. Hindsight proved him wrong. I wish that shoe hasd beaned the ba*tard:); especially since he was unrepentantant...Cheney is/was even more dangerous.

"".....or in afghanistan....."
I completely disagree. I dont buy into conspiracy thoerists; esp when both OBL & KhaliD Sheikh Mohammed have admitted it.

""obl was placed in afghanistan by the cia....as was al-zawahiri.......they were fully supported.....to create the russian's vietnam......after which the taliban were supported by the usa, also......pls read zbignew's accounts and statements if you don't believe me.......""

Why in the world would I disbelieve it?---its common knowledge ...admitted by every side!

Pakistan loves to boast & pats itself on its back on how it was responsible for the demise of the Soviet Union. But then, conveniently, blames the US for the blowback! I think Pakistan got so confident that it openly replicated that war in Kashmir. So far, it has'nt done crap. You dont have stingers & all the US backing to fight in Kashmir. Even the US now realises that Pakistan is playing a double game,; sometinhg India has been saying since 911.

""the afghan govt. actually offered to hand over obl, to a muslim country after 9/11.....many like me, had suggested that the usa should accept the offer.......in fact, the usa refused to release any evidence, relating afghanistan to 9/11.......it still hasn't released anything....if you know of any, pls let me know......."

BS...the buggers should be arrested & tried in the US.

''the victims in afghanistan, kashmir, iraq, palestine etc. are nearly all muslims.....suffering state terrorism.....no one should be allowed to legitimize the actions that cause their sufferings........''

those who are responsible for "de-legitimizing" their cause are the terrorists. You may call them freedom fighters, the non-muslim world calls them terrorist.
The Tibetans are oppressed too; they are respected by how they highlight their cause.

Being told that you have the divine right to correct any real or imagined injustice by violence is what these "freedom fighters" are adopting.

#48 Khyber: True there are a lot of religious schools in panjab. nothing wrong with religious schools as long as they teach religion, not crime.

What is a crime is what is happening in the frontier, not in the panjab. it is Swat that is under terrorist rule, not Sahiwal. it is Fata that is infested with terrorist vermin, not Faisalabad.

And Nawaz Sharif has proved to be the only political leader worthy of the name in Pakistan - the one who brought down Zardari's attempt at replacing Musharraf with himself as the dictator. And Sharif's power rests on popular support, not on Saudis who amount as little as Iranis or any other muslim country in Pakistan politics.

Romair
#35
Great post.I hope that mullah has left the US (as he claimed)...

45 Posted by tahmed32,,,,there are more so called religious schools in punjab then pukhtunkhwa,punjabis politicians like NAWAZ SHARIF are puppet of SAUDI ARABIA who are trying to spread hateful wahabi version of saudi islam,it was punjabi NAWAZ SHARIF who took money from OSAMA BIN LADEN,it is punjabi ARMY who are supporting TALIBAN and ALQUIDA.

Re: # 39
bull...
so pakis will decide, how a member of UN security council will behave...specialy with musla countries...

hang on, what about US intervention in balkan crisis?
I have not seen any paki musla crying for NATO intervention on Serbia. Shameless creatures...

Re: # 39
bull...
so pakis will decide, how a member of UN security council will behave...specialy with musla countries...

hang on, what about US intervention in balkan crisis?
I have not seen any paki musla crying for NATO intervention on Serbia. Shameless creatures...

Khyber #17 Hiding behind the mask of "islam" are all types of smelly rats - The Saudi rats who use "islam" to hide their true goal - which is to maintain their family rule over Arabia (the only country in the world named after one family!!); the Taliban rats who use "islam" to hide their true goal - which is to gain autocratic rule over parts of Pakistan (with Swat becoming Fadlullahabad). But never fear - while you pathans may have failed to contain the criminals in your midst and to shed your tribal ways, the panjab has moved ahead and is now in the forefront of the struggle for the rule of law in Pakistan.

#43 pandit hate has moved beyond educating Pakistanis to educating Obama. ha! ha!

Educating Obama,

The US has put a few million dollars on the head of baitullah. Last week he was giving a press conference. Do not forget that the pakis did not know how to jam his jihadic radio transmissions.

Obama, take it from me, if baitullah cannot be caught, a man who routinely gives press confreneces, who transmits over radio, because if paki military support for him, what chance is there to catch osama. What chance is there to eliminate or even contain taliban.

Resizing of pakistan is the only option. Most of the money you are providing will go to taliban. Learn from chowk, learn from history.

Pakistan is on a path created by teh TNT, that is why the most virulent strain of islam is from pakistan.

The Obama administration is clinging to the hope that Pakistan's military will awaken to the dangers these same terrorist elements pose to Pakistani society and the stability of the state. Continued links between extremists and elements of the Pakistani security establishment have led to confusion about the genuine threat to the nation. In turn, this ambivalence towards extremist groups within the security establishment fuels conspiracy theories against outsiders (mainly either India or the US) that get aired in the Pakistani media and lead to a public discourse that diminishes the threat from terrorists.

To end this vicious cycle, the Pakistan army must fully break its links to terrorist groups and recognise that its own interests as a unified and stable institution will ultimately be jeopardised unless it reins in individuals who are pressing an extremist agenda.

///////////////////////

OPbama, take it from me, in terms of TNt strain of islam, jihad is the highest purpose of any pakistani, pakistan came into this state by eliminating the ten percent hindus that remained in pakistan through ethnic cleansing.

I am also calling on Congress to pass a bipartisan bill co-sponsored by Maria Cantwell, Chris Van Hollen and Peter Hoekstra that creates opportunity zones in the border region to develop the economy and bring hope to places plagued by violence. And we will ask our friends and allies to do their part - including at the donors conference in Tokyo next month.� Obama added, he does “not ask for this support lightly�.

//////////////

Obama the fool.

terrorism has nothing much to do with poverty. India has more poor people in absolute numbers than pakistan. But the like of terrorism that sends killers to london , new york and other foreign countries is not there, There are a lot of muslims in the world, but it is only pakistan that is the center of terror.

The reason is simple, there is very virulent straina of islam from the madrassas of pakistan, the TNt straian.

If that is not addressed, the world will continue to face terrorism. In pakistan the state, the paki military is the supporter of terror.

Take the case of mubai attack, no one in pakistan is arrested or charged. Take tha attack on cricketers no one is arrested. benzir killings. These are all done by the ISI, by the state. This will not change of the source, the TNT is attacked.

Urstruly and ahmedmadani,

I am sorry to see that, from your respective, you believe that US and Pakistan can not have a win-win arrangement in Afghanistan. I strongly disagree with you. I think you and other people in Pakistan can and should think more creatively to make it a win-win by engaging with the US in a more positive way.

While I disagree with the current US strategy of Predator strikes that kill many innocent civilians and fuel anti-American sentiments, I also believe the extremists operating in Pakistan pose at least as big a threat, if not bigger, to Pakistan as they do to the United States. All of the talk about democracy and civil society is a complete anathema to these radicals who are blowing up their innocent brethren on a daily basis. If they succeed, their biggest victims will continue to be Pakistani Muslims, as they have shown in Swat recently.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

shankar #: "As long as this mentality of "we have been wronged; we are the victims of injustice"

are you, seriously, stating that muslims have not been wronged, in the present world......

pls do a simple calculation: how many innocent muslims have been killed by people of other religions and vice-versa......the factors will be so huge, it won't even be an argument.....

do another calucation....how many muslim lands are occupied by non-muslims and vice versa......again the same result......

so let's refrain from rhetoric that shifts the blame......the usa has absolutely no ethical and moral right of being in iraq......or in afghanistan.......nor in supporting israel etc.....

this is the main problem.......everything is a counter-affect.......

obl was placed in afghanistan by the cia....as was al-zawahiri.......they were fully supported.....to create the russian's vietnam......after which the taliban were supported by the usa, also......pls read zbignew's accounts and statements if you don't believe me.......

i have, personally, seen the afghan jihadis being courted, by the usa. to no end, during the first afghan war........

i wrote an article many years on chowk, on the mess the usa will cause with its bull in a china shop attitude.....http://www.chowk.com/articles/5979

....destroying complete countries to catch one person is ridiculous.......and those who really think these are the reasonsings behind such invasions are extremely naive.....the afghan govt. actually offered to hand over obl, to a muslim country after 9/11.....many like me, had suggested that the usa should accept the offer.......in fact, the usa refused to release any evidence, relating afghanistan to 9/11.......it still hasn't released anything....if you know of any, pls let me know.......

the amount of state terrorism committed by the usa needs to be evaluated objectively.......the taliban, usa, obl, in this whole scenario are part of the problem........

the victims in afghanistan, kashmir, iraq, palestine etc. are nearly all muslims.....suffering state terrorism.....no one should be allowed to legitimize the actions that cause their sufferings........

P.S. 9/11 was a much bigger phenomenon than what has been disclosed.......that doesn't mean that the jews did it......it also doesn't mean that it was orchestrated from a cave in afghanistan.......from where one can even order domino's....what to talk of coordinate airliners........

pls read the writings of the greatest us author of this generation on this subject.......not urstruly or hamidm2 mian (though they are great us authors also); but Gore Vidal......

...if you don't believe Vidal, then read the writings of the american voted the greatest intellectual in the world......Noam Chomsky.......

# 36 Some wise man ( general FM Ayub) said it is dangerous to be enemy of USA but fatal to be ally of USA.
USA uses and discards have bad trait with pawns.Pawns feels proud to walk as usa's front man or state till they throw pawn as chewd discared bone and flush out. But why blame usa ? Pawns willingly accepts minimum wage for to be pawn.
Nations get what they deserve, they make choices all time.

#36 Posted by bulleya on March 27, 2009 10:29:30 pm


pakistan should do what turkey did.......


That was turkey...you all are chicken...

the two worst things pakistan can do is to get into a war against the usa, or to become a front-line ally of the usa, in a war......

nothing has done more to damage pakistan than become a usa ally in the first afghan war and in the second afghan war.....talibanisation is a result of these two wars......

historically, the areas constituting pakistan have been a center of sufism......something that is totally against even theocracy, much less talibanisation.....

pakistan should get out of gwot, immediately.....and tell usa to fight it on its own.........after this, pakistan will have to do a lot of work, internally, to clean up the after affects of the two afghan wars......but the public will support it, as they will not view it as a us agenda......

pakistan should do what turkey did.......

Urstruly #: "Look rizq-e-haram comes with a price;"

.....do you think working in the usa, paying taxes there, which go into the purchase of drones that bomb pakistan, is rizq-e-haram or rizq-e-halal?

....i think this is a philosophical question that one needs to first establish....

....in the end, everyone, in some capacity, is involved in the usa supply chain, e.g. the guy fixing a dell computer in a shop in raja bazaar......

but, it is clear that those directly living in the usa are the most responsible.....if they have a moral dilema, regarding bombing pakistan, then why do they keep living there.....or why did they keep living there....why don't they move out, like many others have done......

those who were born in the usa, have no choice....those who migrated there from countries other than pakistan, have no issue.....those who migrated there from pakistan, and support usa policies, may be evil, but not hypocrites.....

but what about those who migrated there, from pakistan, yet oppose these policies.....they suffer from the biggest character flaw in a human being.....they lack integrity.....

#23 Posted by RiazHaq on March 27, 2009 6:57:31 pm


and dismissing the strategic interests of Pakistan in its neighborhood, do not add up to a serious and workable strategy.


aww...poor islamic terrorist apologist...the strategy is unworkable because it's inconvenient for you and your jihadi supporting establishment...

after 9/11, they deported a bunch of pakis in a targeted crackdown...aparently, they didn't go far enough...

Re: # 30 Mr. U I have prenomotion , I can hear Cambodia.
Americans are going to Pour money, this is short cut to great corrouption and short cut to calamities. Money which donar gives is extremely handicapping for ever. Americans/Leaders are not stupid but corroupt and they will do any thing to please population and shortsided. For them five years is like 50 years. This mind corrouption has been started by usa in our country.

Re: # 31 Madni

You are right. The choices that people like Riaz or Nasim Hasan have made is their business. However, they have no right to tell us that cold blooded murder of our women, children, and men is somehow good for us. Keep your dollars away from us. Thanks.

Re: # 27 Riaz Sahib... You can not ride two horses or sitting on fence. You decide what you want and remove confusion. You have choice, you have made choice already , you have left for green pasture and green dollars leaving green land of pakistan. Now be truthful to that country and you are you are supporting Haram blood money business. It is like divorce you decided to leave then do not tell what ex should do.
For you Pakistan is secondary, you are making money and life and your with your family in usa so be faithful to that land. People make choices all time, we are in back home , may be for 99% it may not be virtue but necessesity ( we can get there).
Your nation is wrong, their policies had led to million deaths. Three muslim nations ( Pak, Afghan,Iraq) are enslaved and citizen are killed on alter of american agenda. Mr. U is right America will try next 10 to 15 years. Americans are strange people like they want fast result and get out. They will get tired and then declare victory and leave and Pakistan will be holding bags. They will threw few crumbs while living and may even decide to shoot dog while leaving ( They will break and wreck pakistan and Talibs will will finish so called Durand line. Afghans will break in ethinic entities and Talibs can only move south and will lead to demise. U sahib is saying right. It takes decades also when you put wrong seeds then surely tree with poisonous fruits will grow. Expak will be fine but we will suffer for american addictions or "solving problem their way".
We have lots of enemies we do not need expaks as friends who just parrot elite line.Hope we get less help from american and expaks who are hypocrite as they abandon pakistan for green pasture then come as sages full of wisdom to save "native" ingnorants.
Good day.

Re: # 29 Madni

Thank you for stating the obvious. The example of Combodia is hundered percent accurate and befitting. Why would nature spare us from taking its course of natural selection? Nature abhors weak, corrupt, and malignant. It has a self acting mechanism to clean up after itself.

Re: # 25 I do not agree with you most of time but here I second you without hesitation.
Nothing will come good by being pawn and making blood money, it is morally wrong to make money , it is not much different than murdering unrelated people for money. It is understable we can not resist as we are not strong willed or pure as Vietnam or even as determined as mr Gandhi determined. Recently it is my thinking we can not resist USA interference but can we not stop cooperating with them ? That is possible I think. We need a some body who can stand up to USA. Our situation is like poor woman forced in prostitution and Amereca is saying we should enjoy. They can beat us but can not force to bad things like joining in killing of our own citizens. Time has come to leave 60 years slavery and say atlast we are free not to enjoy blood money. WE are doing wrong and for wrong done almighty Allah is punishing us to teach lesson , it is possible we we are making blood money we will be punished more like Combodia. We may loose special leadership position inMuslim world and become joke of betting on horse a loosing horse.
Thanks for your straight forward brutal analysis, true we can not have cake and it also. American Shylock is offering dollars but asking pound flesh also. Hope this our free money addiction goes away and it may be hard life but it will be moral life and suffering is worth for it.
Good day everybody.

Re: # 27

The "success" of amrika means our slavery for the next 10 to 12 years (that is how much this empire is gonna last). The human cost however is immense. Just in Iraq they have committed a genocide of 2 million people alongwith millions displaced. In Pakistan close to one million pakistani citizens are living in refugee camps because of the "successes" of amrika. And by the way what the hell is YOUR stake in it anyway? They can grab you by the ear and throw you into one of their torture cells any minute if they feel like it - whether they are successful or not.

Re: # 25

Urstruly: "why people like you amrika ki success ke liye mare ja rahe ho"

Well, as a Pakistani-American, I have a stake in both nations and care for each. I would like to see an outcome that is good both US and Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 22 Dost

You are giving too much credit to "my leaders". These assholes cannot even turn a door knob unless they get a nod and wink (and of course tankha (salary)) from their masters in Washington.

Re: # 23

I don't understand why people like you amrika ki success ke liye mare ja rahe ho. Look rizq-e-haram comes with a price; fouj has to do what their master want - it is just as simple as that - are you with them in this dance or you are not. That reminds of a bandar tamasha where the bandar wala was singing with his dugdugi "dhoo hilay ga to paisa milay ga". You can't have cake and eat it to.

Re: # 23

I don't understand why people like you amrika ki success ke liye mare ja rahe ho. Look rizq-e-haram comes with a price; fouj has to do what their master want - it is just as simple as that - are you with them in this dance or you are not. That reminds of a bandar tamasha where the bandar wala was singing with his dugdugi "dhoo hilay ga to paisa milay ga". You can't have cake and eat it to.

Notwithstanding the additional US aid to Pakistan in the regional policy, the unilateral and impractical demands on Pakistanis by the Obama administration while continuing Predator strikes and dismissing the strategic interests of Pakistan in its neighborhood, do not add up to a serious and workable strategy. Such a strategy may look good on paper but it will not lead to US success on the ground in Afghanistan.

To read more, please visit: http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/03/obamas-new-afghan-pakistan-regional.html

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Urstruly#21:

Au contraire, your leaders have sold Obama on their good-taleban/bad taleban song and dance. He is now adding to the bribery paid to your leaders instead of the tough talk of the campaign time. Indeed, Pakistani politicians must be saying about Obama:

Raah mein unko lay aayai tau hain baatoN mein
Aur khul jaayengay do-chaar mulaqaatoN mein!

I think that Obama wouldn't even object to your achieving your "strategic depth" with the help of friendly "good" taleban, of the Gulbudin Hikmetyar and Haqaani variety. All he would ask in return is not to shield "guest" jehadis.

So the cat is out of the bag, now that the Negro Bush has declared his Af-Pak policy. In no uncertain terms America is officially at war with Pakistan. The question is what is our gaandoo fouj going to do about it? Are they gonna defend our country for a change now? Or are they gonna keep feeding their children the bread soaked in the blood of Pakistanis - the bread that comes with the tankha they get from their masters.. Harmakhori has its own perks - it bothers only first time when you take your shalwar off - doesn't it?

reality..female of the canine species..

Pak intelligence backing Qaeda, Taliban: Mullen

WASHINGTON: There are “indications� that elements of Pakistan’s intelligence service are supporting Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the United States top military officer said on Friday. “There are certainly indications that’s the case,� US Joints Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen told CNN when asked if elements of Pakistan’s spy agency were backing the Al Qaeda and its Taliban allies. “Fundamentally that’s one of the things that has to change,� Mullen said. afp

#18 Posted by MatloobZaman...You are right,but its not the Paki citizens,its the PAKI elite, bourgious,military , ISI,corrupt politicians who are responsible for Jinnah's Pakistan Failures.

To a level it can be suspected with a nod, however, Pakistanis themselves are the major cause of all the chaos created in Pakistan and it would not be out of place to say that any consequences as described herein and US suspected can only be brought to truth due to the corrupt actions and mentalities of Pakistanis without their contribution to this it does not seem possible.

#16..tahmed32
I strongly agree with you,in saudi arabia such religious freedom is not allowed as it here in the States,in some states they are allowing schools closed for EID HOLIDAY,
NASIM,you mentioned about the youth in tribal areas,who are going to these so called religious schools where they tech them only to hate others.The Tribal youth, mostly aging between 12 to 35 years constitutes over 53 % of the total FATA population.Because of unemployment and the so-called religious motivation, a majority of them became hard-core militants and still a vast number might be looking for an opportunity to fall on either side. The opportunity must be ceased to bring them back, before they became party to militants. Irrespective of the wherewithal, there are inveterate indications that these militants have plethora of capital to take into service the unemployed youth of FATA. Inopportunely, over the past few years, there has been a gradual increase and spread of militancy with a worsening law and order situation in the Tribal region.In order to exonerate from Madrassa culture, there is a need to provide an alternative option of education to this group of the youth. Although there exists 5,344 educational institutions in the tribal areas, but owing to the inauspicious law and order situation, majority of them remain close. In order to ensure a smooth conduct of formal educational process, a group of volunteer youth from the area; preferably one per family ought to be chosen with the consent of their parents and educated in the good public schools located elsewhere in the country with boarding and lodging amenities to be borne by the Federal Government. Such an experience has met success in the recent past, once a limited group of youth was put through the basic education in Army Public schools at Peshawar, Bannu and Kohat. While majority of these students might be put through the normal and technical education, the glowing students may be segregated and provided an opportunity to go for higher professional education like engineering, medical or information technology. Though it is a long-term investment, however if tailored correctly, this class can change the fortune of FATA in the future.

Nasim: You are making a fundamental mistake in your article, as clearly indicated when you conclude "even committed fundamentalists of all types will take note of its (US) good intentions."

That is, you assume it is the US that needs to prove its "good intentions", and assume that the fundamentalists have no bad intentions.

As for the US, do you seriously think that the US has any problem with Islam? If so, how do you explain that you mosques are not only permitted, they enjoy all the tax breaks, police protection and traffic control services during eid as any church or synagogue??

As for the fundamentalists - you ignore their evil ways, burning schools, beheading helpless prisoners, trying to force their way into becoming autocrats. A

I am amazed that such obvious points should escape your attention.

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wow, pretty stunning stuff..basically comes down to the idea that pakistanis are a crazy bunch of islamist nut jobs and america haters...and the US better give them a LOT OF MONEY right now !! Or else these nutjobs will go completely crazy.

This fellow claims to be an american...amazing, is there some genetic transform that makes people develop these crazy opinions???? I mean look just yesterday the Tata Nano was released in india, the whole world was watching this solid advance in low-cost travel. Its the same people but there is something in paki culture that leads to this victim complex and "give me something for free" mentality.

It cannot be a muslim thing either. I mean india is jammed with muslim enterprenuers, teachers, workers - and in the US we have Fareed Zakaria, Muqtedar Khan and all sorts of cool indian muslims.

So it does boggle the mind..danish cartoons are more important than girls going to school and becoming literate...pakistan ka matlab kaya...now we know..

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To the abusive commentators who continue their bigoted campaign of vulgarities on this forum, let me quote Iqbal:

Phool ki patti se kut sakta hay heeray ka jigar
Mard-e-nadaaN per kalaam-e-narm-o-nazook be asar


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Any group or nation that wants to have successful relations with Pakistan and the Muslim World must respect Islam.


Teri maa ki .... saale you vermin openly try to decimate your minorities and want respect in return ,,,, even in places you are minority ... u try to proselytize the vermin cult and kill those who try to escape Islam. ...and now beg for respect ....

This is a fight between good and evil. And I know which side I am on.

Riaz Khan

Dude, you are right... I admit, it's all my fault... 70 people were blown-up in some mosque in pakiland today - that's all because of me and other bhindian's big0try and hate... yep, blame it on us....

you are freaking genius dude... LOL

Author writes:

When the drone attacks kill a few so-called Al-Qaida people, invariably many innocent people lose their lives too. The people killed have tribal, ethnic and religious ties. So each innocent person killed creates at least ten insurgents who are willing to lay down their lives......The loss of human lives radicalizes a large segment of non-Pashtun population all across Pakistan. Religious preachers exhort other Muslims to stand up and fight the foreign occupation forces in the name of religion. Any Pakistani ruler who sides with the US is seen as a puppet.

I do not think it is a Freudian slip on part of the author but it is exactly a statement of fact. The question is why aren't the so called seculars and liberals outraged when their country is attacked and fellow citizens killed by a colonial imperial power? Why it is only the responsibility of the religious ones to not only show their outrage but also take practical measures to defend the sovereinty of their motherland. Whether it is the war of independence of 1857, or war against the soviet aggression of Muslim lands or war for the liberation of Kashmir, it is religious right who has to fight all wars and offer sacrifices. The question is why are seculars and librals so bayghairat? Don't they feel anything when their country is run over by a colonial power and shed blood of their fellow citizens?.

The answer to these questions lies in this article itself. The author represents the typical slave mind that 90 years of British occupation has left among us. Now instead of offering solution to the problem that would result in the expulsion of American imperial/colonial aggression against Muslim lands, the author is offering advise as to how to strengthen this occupation and aggression. The author offers advice after advice as to how the British occuptaion of our land became successful and how Americans should try it too. inna lilahe wan inaelihe rajoon,

This is the mind of a slave and it is a typical representive of our ruling elite. It is the result of 90 years of mental conditioning of colonial occupation that has resulted in this degree of inferiority complex.

But rest assured, the days of those like you have been numbered.

#4 Posted by MadrassaAlumni Worldwide

[It seems to me that no discussion is ever complete without "good neighborly" commentators such as you demonstrating your extreme bigotry and spewing of deep venom against your neighbors....]

Yes, all Indians should reciprocate the "good neighborly" attitude shown by Pakis. Especially now that we had to shift the IPL to another country to escape their neighborliness.


[It is clear from a series of comments from you that you are absolutely incapable of any objectives thinking...]

Yes, Indians are completely incapable of objective thinking, unlike Pakis.

[...or civil discourse...]

Yes, Pakis excel at anything to do with civility - such as civil society, secular society, secular constitution etc. etc.

Even the american born paki can't suppress his pakiness.

Funny how his "pakiland the poor victim" piece leaves out the part about pakiland's continuing support to islamic fundamentalism...

Mr Hassan,

""The learning of English will expose the students to a whole new area of thinking and ideas. They will learn how other nations progressed while the Muslim world lagged behind. With the current explosion of knowledge on the net, these people will be able to link with the outside world.""

The 19 911 hijackers all spoke english. The buggers who were responsible for the 7/7 all spoke english. I think they were employed as well. Nowadays, Homeland Security belives the next US attack will likely be from British born Pakistanis.

As long as this mentality of "we have been wronged; we are the victims of injustice & Allah has given us a divine mandate to kill all kafirs" persists, this war isnt going to be over. It is because of that kind of mentality that educated English speaking guys like Urstruly & Hamid Gul actually believe that 911 was caused by the CIA/Mossad nexus.

If you want the US to leave Afghanistan, give them OBL & cronies. Then they will leave. Trust me, no American likes to have their sons & daughters in that godforsaken place.

If the Pashtun code of honor is to protect their "guests", pashtuns will die...its their fault...yeah..blame that on the Americans.

I find it laughable that Pakistanis actually believe the mujahadeen defeated the Soviets. If it wasnt for American help, they would still be ruled by the Russians.

Pakistanis are trying that stunt in Kashmir, for 10 yrs...what has that gotten them?...jack s*it!!! Yeah its the same bloody mujahadeen. When will you guys get in in your thick heads that Pakistan has never WON a single war in its blighted history.

Riaz, sure. Whatcha gonna do abt it?

major and Kamath,

It seems to me that no discussion is ever complete without "good neighborly" commentators such as you demonstrating your extreme bigotry and spewing of deep venom against your neighbors on this forum. It is clear from a series of comments from you that you are absolutely incapable of any objectives thinking or civil discourse when it comes to any discussion of Pakistan or Muslims.

I am afraid that your toxic attitude is likely to contribute to the kind of horrible specter I am talking about.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Nassim Yaar:
It is so nice of you to sit here in USA in comfort and dish out all sorts of advice to Pakistanis and S.Asians.
But haven't you read history of S.Asia and why Pakistan- the Muslim Paradise- has descended into present state of misery and Chaos? It is a good idea of Pakistanis to set their house in order first before you comment on Umricans and Indians etc. To start with get off addiction to Koran and Islam. read about other things a little. Then talk later.

Kamath

Re: # 1
[...Only a dramatic change in US policy can avert this horrible specter...]

Yep, there is nothing pakis would/could do to avert the "specter" - pakis are always innocent bystanders... Pakiland has a 500K standing "well-trained" army - but still they can't take on a rag-tag bunch of jihadis in their own backyard... And pakis have collected billions in terms cash and hardware from US for that purpose...

This is kind of BS propounded by well-informed pakis like Riaz Haq - even though they know exactly what the problem is...

I do hope I am wrong but, given their high level of motivation, extraordinary commitment and readiness to die for their cause (however misguided it may be), it looks more and more likely now that the Taliban will defeat both the US and Pak military forces to assert control over the whole region after a historic bloodbath, claiming millions of innocent lives. And then they will turn back the clock by several centuries.

Only a dramatic change in US policy can avert this horrible specter. I do hope that the Obama administration's ongoing strategic review leads to fundamental changes in America's posture in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

For more, please read: http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/03/pakistans-demise-imminent.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide