USA's New Afghan Strategy

tahmed here is something for you to chew on:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gFqfsEEhl_F5POx1SJkqb5 C-d5Kw

'Pakistan to discuss drone attacks with US'


ISLAMABAD (AFP) — Pakistan will take up the issue of missile attacks on militants in its northwest tribal belt during a visit by US special envoy Richard Holbrooke next week, the foreign ministry said Thursday.

Pakistan says the strikes, the most recent of which killed up to 12 militants in the Orakzai tribal district on Wednesday, violate its territorial sovereignty and deepen resentment among its 160 million people.

"Mr Holbrooke is scheduled to visit Pakistan next week. And this issue would come up for our discussions," foreign ministry spokesman Abdul Basit told a weekly press briefing.

It will be Holbrooke's first visit since US President Barack Obama put Pakistan at the centre of the fight against Al-Qaeda, unveiling a new strategy to commit thousands more troops and billions of dollars to the Afghan war.

A spokesman for the US embassy in Islamabad was not immediately reachable to comment on Holbrooke's schedule.

Asked if Pakistan had lodged a protest with the United States against Wednesday's missile attack from a pilotless aircraft, Basit said: "This is part of our ongoing discussions with the US."

In response to another question on whether Pakistan had made a diplomatic protest to the United States, Basit replied: "Not yet, not in my knowledge."

"They are violations of our sovereignty and secondly they are counterproductive. They are not helpful in our efforts to win hearts and minds. So we cannot accept drone attacks," he said.

Majumdar writes "USSR would have had no compunction in allowing Germany to conquer UK if the Germans cud have managed it. "

Having a non aggression pact does not mean you side with the aggressor, and if Germany had concentrated on the UK and not attacked the SU, the UK would have been toast. The US entered the war against Germany quite late in the day, and even though they were not directly attacked by Germany, by your standards the US and the Nazis were sharing one bed. The poland corridor was where the soviets had been attacked repeatedly through, their concern with it is quite understandable. Were it not for Soviet sacrifice of 20 million plus in WW2, you would not be living in a US dominated world...

Anil you moron, domino theory or not, the US was interested in playing China against the SU, the SU was firmly on India's side and any entry of China to damage that would have been a proxy cold war that the US would have supported according to your playing out of the dominoes. Get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

#208 RiazHaq: Since when is pointing to the obvious absurdity behind your view that Afghanistan cannot have democracy mere "political correctness" and "conventional wisdom"?

And talking of egos, what's the deal with this "Pak Alumni Worldwide"? Why not award yourself a Nishan-e-Haider while you are at it? :-)

Re: # 206
tahmed: "I know changing one's dearly held life-long beliefs is no easy thing. But try hard. You can do it!! You are a big boy!!"

Let me return the advice you gave me. Please set aside your political correctness and conventional wisdom. Then you can think more objectively and arrive at better , and more practical conclusions.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 201

Pavo: "the russians started expanding from 1480" and "its a waste of time educating ignorant people like you."

So how are Russians different again? They are like any other empire that rose and fell. Romans, Persians, Arabs, British....I don't see the difference. Then why keep singing the praises of Russians alone? A clear case of excessive bias toward another brutal empire.

If there is a nation with strategic depth (vast territory, mostly frozen) and sever winters that has used it to their advantage in wearing out the enemy, it's Russia.

Pavo: "The Afghan war was a political issue.Russia withdrew with honour and it was not like USA fleeing Hanoi."

Oh yea! Just ask the Russians. The writing was clearly on the wall for them. Abject defeat was written all over it. I just quoted an Afghan vet advising the Americans in my earlier comment: "They should get out as soon as possible. Or they'll be picked off like clay pigeons in target practice."

Besides, the American empire did not fall after Hanoi. It got stronger. The Soviet empire is no more. Currently, Russia is just another oil-rich country living off of its dwindling natural resources.

My advice to you is to stop looking back on the hey day of the Russians. A new era is dawning in which the Asians will play a much larger role, eclipsing the power of the the so-called first and second worlds.

With their national coffers bulging and their exports driven economy slowing, the Chinese see opportunity in the developing world where others see political and economic risks. It is an opportunity for China to assure the continuing availability of raw materials and oil for its growing industries and to diversify its export markets. In addition to helping bail out the ailing US economy, China is using some of its vast cash reserves of $2 trillion to offer supplier financing as well as insurance for the non-Chinese partners to cover political and credit risk in the emerging markets. With bilateral trade volume of about $7 billion, Pakistan is only one example of Chinese interest. Others include politically-risky Afghanistan, and many nations of Sub-Saharan Africa where the Chinese are financing and building major infrastructure projects. In Afghanistan, China has committed nearly $2.9 billion to develop the Aynak copper field, including the infrastructure that must be built with it such as a power station to run the operation and a railroad to haul the tons of copper it hopes to extract. The Aynak project is the biggest foreign investment in Afghanistan to date, according to Reuters. The trade between Africa and China has grown an average of 30% in the past decade, topping $106 billion last year.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq: Please dont make up things when the obvious flaws in your thinking are pointed out. How does my post indicate that I am losing my cool?

I know changing one's dearly held life-long beliefs is no easy thing. But try hard. You can do it!! You are a big boy!!

TrichMir: You ignore the Pakistani (myself) who contradicts what RiazHaq says, and use the Pakistani (RiazHaq) who claims that afghans have never had democracy is an argument for saying they cannot have democracy.

This is called reaching a conclusion, and then selecting facts to support that conclusion. :-)

Re: # 202
TrichMir: "Afghanistan has no history or tradition of democracy but Pakistan has a long history and tradition of democracy."

Pakistan has had multiple democratic elections and has much more experience with democracy and elections than Afghanistan. But I consider Pakistani democracy to be feudal dominated and highly flawed. It has a long way to go before it becomes truly representative and really serves its people.

As I suggested in my earlier comment, what can and should be tried in Afganistan is a gradual evolution of the jirga system toward a more inclusive participatory process that eventually leads to something close to what is considered democracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 200
tahmed: "how does hating existing warlords translate into hating democracy and loving another form of warlords?? Please think carefully before you write so you dont talk such absurdities!!"

I think you are losing your cool, just like the warlords and the Taliban who have short tempers and big egos...not very conducive to democratic debate. Equating Western-style democracy with progress is what has been crammed into your head by years of propaganda by the powerful western media and liberal elite in South Asia. Bush tried it and failed. Obama recognizes the limitations of the broad Bush agenda on democracy and shows more flexibility on this. You can not transplant western style elections and democracy anywhere you wish instantaneously..it has to have appropriate ground conditioning and climate for democracy to take root, survive and grow. It took a while for US to end slavery, enfranchise women and become relatively democratic..even though it still has serious flaws with the excessive power of US "warlords" in the form of powerful commercial interests and lobbyists on Wall Street, K Street and Main Street.

What can and should be tried in Afganistan is a gradual evolution of the jirga system toward a more inclusive participatory process that eventually leads to something close to what you and I consider democracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

As I had said earlier that Pakistanis used to justify the brutal Taleban rule by saying that the Afghans have always lived like that and this RiazHaq has proved my point.

Afghanistan has no history or tradition of democracy but Pakistan has a long history and tradition of democracy.

riaz haq

u are an ignorant man so i have to educate u in your old age.

please note for your future guidance:--

1-the russians started expanding from 1480 and :--

a. First defeated the Tartars who had played hell
with Muslims.

b. Russia defeated Poland then a great power and
defeated sweden then a superpower at Poltava in
1709 .
c. Russia played hell with Ottoman Turks from
1650 till 1878 when Turkey was saved by
British intervention from extinction.
d. Russia defeated Saffavid and Qajar Iran from
1700 till 1850.
e. It defeated Central Asian Khanates which
produced all tribes which had attacked and
conquered India.
f. Russia defeated Napoleon in 1812 and Russian
troops played a major role at Leipzig in 1813.
g. Russia defeated Nazi Germany in WW Two and
defeated the Japanese in Manchuria.

The Afghan war was a political issue.Russia withdrew with honour and it was not like USA fleeing Hanoi.

Even now Russia calls the shots in Afghanistan.

Galeottis research proves that the Afghan withdrawal was a case of Russias economy weak long before afghan war.

its a waste of time educating ignorant people like you.
Agha Amin

RiazHaq #199 What kind of reasoning is this?? If every country followed your reasoning ("Afghanistan has no history or tradition of elections or democracy"), no country would progress beyond tribalism!! They would just follow the rut that their ancestors travelled.

Also - try and think for yourself rather than follow the well-trodden rut that too many pakistani babus follow, namely berate the US. You might actually learn something.

Also - how does hating existing warlords translate into hating democracy and loving another form of warlords?? Please think carefully before you write so you dont talk such absurdities!!

Re: # 196
tahmed: "if the Taliban were indeed popular, why did they never have any elections?),"

I think you are too hung up on elections. Afghanistan has no history or tradition of elections or democracy...other than the jirga system where the elders make decisions about their tribes....sort of like the democracy America's founding fathers envisioned where only white men owning property could vote. Remember what Alexander Hamiltob said: Masses are asses.

As far Talib popularity is concerned, I know from everything I have read (and I do read a lot), the Afghans hate the warlords more than anything or anyone because the warlords are far more arbitrary, corrupt and violent that the Taliban. Unfortunately, US and Karazai have allied themselves with the worst of the Afghan warlords.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 176

Pavo: "its far more complicated than winter.the russians fought and they had the stamina to fight . they cannot be compared wit any race in the world other than germans and japanese."

I know a big Russia fan that constrains your judgment. But please explain to me why the Russians had to fight almost all of the wars on their own territory and lost more people than any of their adversaries in the wars they fought? And why did the tide turn in their favor only after they retreated and winter arrived?

And please don't gloss over the absolute crushing defeat the Russians suffered in Afghanistan.

On the 20th anniv of their defeat, a Russian Afghan war vet recently advised the Americans in Afghanistan: "They should get out as soon as possible. Or they'll be picked off like clay pigeons in target practice."


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

TrichMir: Surprise - but the average Baluch is empty-handed, not the tribal sardars. Some scoundrels wear the mask of "Islam" to hide their real goal, which is to gain power through the barrel of the gun. Other scoundrels (as in case of the tribal chieftans of Baluchistan, the street ghoondas of Karachi) wear the mask of "Ethnic Nationalism" of some kind to hide the same goal.

If you want justice - support the principles of democracy and the rule of law. Not some "ism" of one kind or another.

#161 RiazHaq: Thanks for clarifying that you dont support the Taliban, and Taliban being popular among Afghans is just an impression you had. Think about the question I posed (i.e. if the Taliban were indeed popular, why did they never have any elections?), and you will see that this is a mistaken impression. Appearances can be deceptive - Mullah Omar may have deceived some fools by putting on the Made in China blanket and claiming this belonged to the prophet (and so what if it did??!!). But all people - even illiterate people - are not fools. Lincoln said something to this affect too.