USA's New Afghan Strategy

Amin sahib,

there is no morality in politics

On that I agree.

Regards

its not for me to comment on everything , there is no morality in politics ,i am not riaz haq who likes to comment on everything
Agha Amin

Amin sahib,

Dunkirk was a mistake no doubt. But even with Dunkirk it would have been difficult thanks to the English Channel and the RAF's aerial superiority.

But you still have not commented on the fact that USSR was actually allied to Nazis before June 1941 and used German successes for its own territorial gains - in Poland, Finland and Rumania.

Regards

hitlers best chance to invade britain was lost when he did not destroy the british at dunkirk.after this the germans did not have the potential to invade britain.

hitler saw major rival as USSR so the question of what you say is purely hypothetical.

tsushima was a brilliant naval battle won with superior admiral ship plus an over exhausted russian fleet
Agha Amin

Amin sahib,

Did the Jap navy cross the Russian navy's T in Tsushima or was it more like an ambush across the opening of the Strait?

Btw, you havent answered #173

Regards

PS: Thanks for your recent i-log on Tannenberg

bot only was it a naval war , the major battle was mukden in manchuria , a ground battle in which russians lost , but this was a time when russia was deeply internally divided.after all later zhukov defeated the japanese at khakin gol.

the russo japanese war was naval plus land .in navy tsushima and in land mukden and port arthur.
Agha Amin

Re: # 174

riaz haq

you are not suited to comment on everything.i suggest that you read more ,brush up your knowledge.u may be a specialist in some fields but military history is new to you.

read some liddell hart , glantz , fuller.

its far more complicated than winter.the russians fought and they had the stamina to fight . they cannot be compared wit any race in the world other than germans and japanese.


Agha Amin

Riaz,

The Russo-Japanese War was largely a naval war.

Regards

Re: # 170

Pavo: "Europe was saved thrice by Russia/USSR."

You're right. The key Russian weapon in each war was the Siberian winter. Russians kept retreating until the winter arrived, then struck back at the weary European enemies.

However, the picture was different in Asia. The embarrassing string of Russian defeats at the hands of much smaller Japanese forces increased Russian popular dissatisfaction with the inefficient and corrupt Tsarist government and proved a major cause of the Russian Revolution of 1905.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Amin sahib,

Thanks for 171. But tell me honestly:

1. Had Napoleon struck to the Tilsit Treaty and not bullied Russia into the Continental Decree would they have truned against France.

2. Had the Germans not invaded Russia in 1941, would USSR have intervened to save Britain

Regards

Amin sahib,

Europe was saved thrice by Russia/USSR.

That is correct, but it was involuntary. Russia did not intervene on her own but reacted after the leading imperialist power turned on her.

In 1812 when Napoleons major army was destroyed by Russians

Tsar Alex came to peace with Napoleon at Tilsit and they had agreed to mutually divide Europe and Asia among themselves. It was only 'cos France violated the terms and later invaded Russia that they came to the "rescue of Wetsern Europe"

In WW 1 vast bulk of fighting against Germany was done by Russia.

That is not true. The French too bled heavily in the war against Germany. Secondly, it wasn't as if Russia attacked Germany to save France. They joined the war to save their fellow Orthodox Slav ally, Serbia from annihilation at the hand of the Mitteleuropa.

In WW 2 again some 90 % of the fighting against Germans was done by USSR.Some 90 % of allied killed were Soviet citizens.

Sure. But it wasnt as if USSR joined the war to liberate the Western World. Surely, you have heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the division of Eastern Europe with the Nazis. Plus, USSR continued to supply Germany with provisions on very lenient credit terms right upto June 1941. Had the Nazis not turned on USSR the Soviets would never have entered the war.

Regards

PS: It reminds me of Sardarji joke. A Sardarji was travelling on a ship. Another passenger fell off the ship and as everyone gathered at the side of the ship to see what was happening, the Sardarji jumped into the sea and rescued the drowning man. The crowd gave him a standing ovation. After acknowledging the ovation the Sardarji said "Now, which of you buggers pushed me off the ship"

Regards

The USSR had destroyed about 80% of the Wehrmant on the Eastern front and inflicted about 12.5 million Axis casualties and suffered horribly because of it (Glantz estimates a grim figure of 35 million Soviet dead including civillians)

http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf
(Written by David Glantz, arguably the most educated Historian on the Eastern Front)

-Some of the most tytanic battles in the war occurred during the Eastern front. These are icluded, but not limited to Stalingrad, Dnieper Offensive, Leningrad, Kursk, Moscow, Belorussian offensive.

-Bagration was an amazing offensive that inflicted over 1 million casualties on the Wehrmant. It was Germany's biggest defeat of the war.



Battle of Moscow:

In June 1941 the German army had 3.8 million men, of which 3.3 million (!) were deployed against Russia. Of 21 panzer divisions, 19 were targeted for Russia and 2 were in North Africa. The Germans massed three field and three panzer armies [17 panzer, 14 motorized, 6 luftwaffe, and 42 infantry divisions] for the offensive on Moscow. They enjoyed an 1,5 : 1 superiority in manpower, 1,75 : 1 in tanks, and 2 : 1 in aircrafts.

Both German and Russian losses have been a subject of debate. David Glantz in his book "When Titans Clashed", gives Russian casualties at 658,279 for the defense phase alone, plus 370,955 for the winter counteroffensive until Jan 7 1942.

At Moscow the Russian army inflicted an unprecedented defeat on the German army and prevented Hitler from achieving the objectives of campaign in the east. Germany could no longer defeat Russia on the terms originally set by Hitler. Stalingrad deprived the Germans of strategic initiative and proved that Germany could not win the war on any terms. Kursk confirmed that Germany would indeed lose the war. After Kursk Germany could not even pretend to hold the strategic initiative and the Russian army remained on the offensive throughout the rest of the war. At Kursk the Russians proved capable of contending successfully with World's most accomplished army.

Alot of people dismiss this amazing victory because they say that the weather won the battle. This is completely untrue, as Robert Forczy points out:

"The entire issue of the impact of poor weather conditions upon the conduct of Operation Typhoon has been distorted by decades of disinformation from both sides and gross oversimplification. Operation Typhoon was fought over a large area - 500 km - from north to south - and weather conditions often varied considerably along the front. It is clear from both German and Soviet weather data that while the offensive was hindered by passing periods of poor weather, that the worst winter weather did not arrive until after Typhoon had culminated." ( Robert Forczyk - "Moscow 1941" p 90)

Stalingrad:

The battle of Stalingrad raged from August 1942 until the German surrender on 2 February 1943. Significantly, it was the first catastrophic defeat to befall the Wermacht Army who not only lost the battle but were severely humiliated. Indeed, the German Army never fully recovered from this blow to its morale. Over the course of the battle it involved approximately two million men, 2000 tanks, some 2600 guns and mortars and more than 2000 planes. Conversely, morale in the Red Army soared as a consequence of Stalingrad giving the Russians increased strength and confidence. This battle represented a turning point in the Second World War.

By successfully defending the city of Stalingrad the Soviet Union were able to deny Hitler his summer 1942 objective of paralysing the Soviet war effort by interrupting Russian oil supplies and seizing the Caucasus oil fields. This achievement was made possible through the stubborn and ferocious resistance of the Red Army within the confines of Stalingrad and the meticulously planned counteroffensive which led to the encirclement of the entire 6th army outside the city. In addition, compared with their German counterparts, the Red Army were mostly highly organized, they had superior lines of communication and were better equipped.

Soviet victory at Stalingrad significantly raised the morale of the war weary Russian people and increased patriotic feeling. Stalin, hailed a hero, regained his credibility and was appointed Marshal of the Soviet Union. Red Army Generals were rewarded with military decorations and their statues were erected in their native cities. Propaganda also received a boost as newsreels showed the long columns of German POWs. Stalin personally took credit for the victory and military defeats prior to Stalingrad were depicted as part of his pre-arranged plan.

Kursk:

The greatest tank battle in history occurred at Kursk. It began on July 5th, 1943 and it ended ignominiously eight days later. This was the last major offensive launched by the Germans on the Eastern Front. During the battle the last hope of a Nazi victory over the Soviet Union faded into oblivion and it has since been considered to be a turning point in the war. At Kursk the Red Army proved that it could defeat a German summer offensive -- something that even the victory at Stalingrad had failed to show. However, the context in which Kursk took place should also be kept in mind.

Before the German command felt ready (almost four months later), 200 of the new Panther tanks, 90 Elefant tank destroyers and a mass of the new Henschel Hs129 ground attack aircraft were made available for the battle as well as a host of Tiger Is, late model PzKpfw IVs and venerable Stukas. In total, the Germans assembled a force of some 2700 tanks and assault guns and 1800 aircraft; about 900,000 men were earmarked for the battle. It was the greatest concentration of German fighting power ever put together. Even so, Hitler expressed doubts about its adequacy.

The battlefield in Kursk was filled with many hundreds of burnt tanks and crashed aircraft, and so many dead soldiers. The difference was that while the Russians suffered heavy losses but could continue as planned and shift from defense to a large counter attack in a wide front, the German army in the East just lost the core of its remaining force.

After the battle of Kursk, the war in the eastern front was a long Russian advance, in which the Russian army returned to all the territory it lost to the Germans, conquered all of Eastern Europe, and reached all the way to Germany and to Berlin and won the war. The Germans could no longer attack or stop the Russian advance, and were just pushed back in a long retreat.


A WORD ON LEND LEASE

-Lend-Lease is TERRIBLY overexaggerated in significance. As Glantz wisely notes below, its effect was not the "life saviour of the USSR" but the thing that made them win faster:


Agha Amin

Re: # 168

mr majumdar

you dont seem to have complete knowledge of Russian/Soviet role in WW 2 or previous wars.

1-Europe was saved thrice by Russia/USSR.

2-In 1812 when Napoleons major army was destroyed by Russians.It is after this that the West Europeans were able to recoup.

2-In WW 1 when removal of two corps from German right wing in France and their despatch to Poland because of Russian threat saved France.

3-In WW 1 vast bulk of fighting against Germany was done by Russia.

4-In WW 2 again some 90 % of the fighting against Germans was done by USSR.Some 90 % of allied killed were Soviet citizens.

You need to brish up your knowledged of military history.

The contributions by Red Army ( and that included Muslims also) in WW 2 were enormous and overshadow any mickey mouse allie casualties.

PS-some 50 heroes of socviet unions were chechems etc in WW 2.
Agha Amin

Re: # 166

Oye roos ki qabar k mujawar:

Pak-Afghan warriors fought russi aggression together for 1 year and half before your amerikan yaars saw potential that this war could be won. Amrika or not we would have won this war any way. If your amrika is so high and mighty then why and how it has been reduced to a baboon jumping up and down now.

Masadi sahib,

There was nothing glorious about USSR's involvement in WW-II. They were actually allied with the Nazis and divided East Europe, espeically Poland with the Nazis. It was only after Germany invaded USSR, that they joined the Allies. USSR would have had no compunction in allowing Germany to conquer UK if the Germans cud have managed it.

Regards

Re: # 163

Masadi:

You are a complete joker.

1965:
China could not have entered Indo-Pak, the U.S. would have destroyed it at that time. Domino theory was almost at its peak. Bay of pigs was a bruise from the commies, the U.S. would have simply looked to get even. The battle would have fought in India-Pak theater, and not it Vietnam. Reading your history, and get over it.

1971:
The U.S. and China were reapproaching each other. Bangladesh was not big enough to mess that up. Nixon, not China played the bluff. Indira Gandhi called the bluff. Read Chou-En-Li and Kissinger papers on this.

Are you sure you do not have GI problems to call for others fa...?

Your fitur does not become a history or reality.

Moron truly, Zia's intentions were clear and they were unholy, in part they included whoring Islam and Muslims for the American cause, a cause that you a becoming part of. Do not try to claim ownership of a 'freedom struggle'which has nothing to do with the formula baazi that you term "islam'. You pervert your kind have perverted Islam according to its caricature drawn by the Orientalists, you are their illegitimate (the B word) child.

TNITC masadi

It doesn't matter what Zia's intentions were, but it was absolutely necessary to encounter Russians in Afghanistan and defeat them. If zia hadn't initiated it, the war would have been fought anyway by Pakistan and Muslims. Now Afganistan has become a first milestone in Muslim history where the Muslim quest for global sovereignity took its first steps. The colonial powers of past and present are spending billions and killing millions to suppress thsi freedom struggle.

Re: # 158
beduin32...
Democracy etc..., is meant for human society, not for muslas....you need some sense of discipline ( not exclusively for human...ants are very disciplined), responsibilty....a bunch of street dogs ( like pakis, afghans, somalis etc...) can not make a democracy....How much money US and USSR had spent in Pakistan and Afghanistan to humanise the bipeds residing in this region. Is it of any use? I don't think so....

Regarding Fuzair: These lota carriers for the generals pervert history in order to enhance the nuisance value of the Pakistan Army. How did Chinese relationship with India during the 1965 and 1971 wars affect the outcome of those wars? So how would a belligerent tiny fart Afghanistan be a greater threat to Pakistan than China was to India? Please explain this you miserable apologist for the generals.

TNITC masadi

Fuzair writes "Daoud Shah staged a coup and took over in 1973. Not conincidentally, Afghanistan also started aiding the Baluch Insurgency. What would Pakistan's strategic situation have been like if Daoud Shah had been PM during the 1965 War? In 1971?"

Leave it to a lota carrier of the generals to pervert History. Actually Sardar Muhammad Daud (not Daud shah you moron) brought Afghanistan to a much closer relationship with the surrounding Muslim countries as is documented in this book, "Afghanistan in World Politics" by M. Khalid Ma'aroof, and as Pavo himself has written:

n 1976 major changes occurred once Sardar Daud Khan after having assessed aggressive Soviet designs decide to opt for a major policy change and rapprochement with Pakistan.Sardar Daud Khan visited Pakistan and made a statement " Pakistani brothers, I can assure you that we came to your country with the utmost goodwill and sincerity…..We will be able to solve our political problems and one day we will live as very close and intimate brothers".http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/65724/47736

TNITC masadi

Re: # 159
tahmed: "I cant believe you are serious in your support for the Taliban animals!!"

Where did you get that impression? I am not a Taliban supporter, merely stating facts as I see them.

tahmed: "India is a primitive society. If democracy can work in India, why do you think democracy cant work in Afghanistan?? "

Indian and Pakistani societies are far more sophisticated than the Afghan society. Both have been home to great civilizations in their various important regions.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Good night.

Riaz: I cant believe you are serious in your support for the Taliban animals!!

#157 RiazHaq: India is a primitive society. If democracy can work in India, why do you think democracy cant work in Afghanistan??

Re: # 155
tahmed: "Who decided that? "

They could have had the fig-leaf of Loya Jirga which would issue the desired decision by the Taliban. But I guess "Amirul Momeneen Mullah Omar" decided it wasn't necessary. That was it. Let's not forget it's fairly primitive trial society where your modern concepts of democracy do not apply. Even Obama has abandoned Bush's rhetoric about it in Afghanistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 152

Madani: "Worst part of this wheat export to India and AFstan is we use our real dollars to import wheat from usa, russia, etc while that is sold and we get worthless rupees same as our rupees."

While I agree with you, it is very very difficult to stop smuggling food or drugs, with the endemic corruption we have. It's true not just in Afghanistan/South Asia region but most of the rest of world to varying degrees. The money is too good to pass up for all involved in the illicit trade.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq #151 Who decided that? Did the Taliban have a referendum to let the Afghan people decide that from now on they would simply accept Taliban rule??

Re: # 144
GT: "In my opinion, China should start playing a more active role in all of this."

China is playing a much bigger game by building powerful debt leverage over America. It's the same kind of leverage the US had over Britain when it threatened mass sale of British bonds to force the Brits to back down in the Suez crisis.

Besides, with their national coffers bulging with over two trillion dollars, the Chinese are active in most of the developing nations in Africa and Asia, including Afghanistan. Chinese see opportunities where others see risk during the current global financial crisis. In Afghanistan, China has committed nearly $2.9 billion to develop the Aynak copper field, including the infrastructure that must be built with it such as a power station to run the operation and a railroad to haul the tons of copper it hopes to extract. The Aynak project is the biggest foreign investment in Afghanistan to date, according to Reuters.

And the trade between Africa and China has grown an average of 30% in the past decade, topping $106 billion last year.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

here tree= tea

Re: # 148 Worst part of this wheat export to India and AFstan is we use our real dollars to import wheat from usa, russia, etc while that is sold and we get worthless rupees same as our rupees. We spend dollars to import whaet and then smuggled toAFstan and India and get back shody indian goodies. Also afghans are importing so much Indian tree and it comes back to Pakistan, trade treaty between AF and Pakistan is great conduit for smuggling and Our american dollars flies to enemy( India) and hostle people ( afghans).
GFood day everybody.

Re: # 150
tahmed: "they never held any elections? "

In their version of the Shariah, there is no democracy or elections. In any event, elections in tribal society are just sham elections, like the election of Karzai by the Loya Jirga.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq: If Taliban were indeed as popular as you think they were, how come they never held any elections? Anyone who seeks to gain power through the barrel of the gun deserves only one thing - a taste of his own medicine, namely a bullet through his head.

Re: # 145
tahmed: "Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan has given them the Taliban. I dont know how you can call any Afghani an ingrate."

While I agree Pakistan helped the Taliban, it's an oversimplification to say Pakistan "has given them the Taliban." It was years of civil war in Afganistan among the "Mujahideen" that ended in the Taliban taking over all of Afghanistan with Pak's help.

Taliban clearly imposed tough justice and brutal rule. But, with the exception a small educated elite and Uzbeks/TaJIKS, most Afghans took a sign of relief because the nation saw a semblance of law and order after total anarchy brought by the various warlords.

I believe the Taliban would still be in charge in Afghanistan had not made the mistake of hosting and protecting bin Laden who launched 911 attacks on the US soil.

Given the total dedication and willingness to die for their cause (no matter how misguided), they currently have an upper hand in Afghanistan. The US willingness to negotiate with them is a testament to the Taliban's strength and renewed popularity in their land.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 143 Professor Riaz-Haq.... You have included wheat only. But other commodities like sugar, cement, Atta which are cheaper in Pakistani market seep to India and AF stan.One of reason even though we get bumper whaet crop we suffer due to shortage as our Cheap wheat is smuggled big way and thet has become "big income " for Rangers of Sindh and also leak through Punjab/ India border.If you note carefully most trade organizations are not patriotic but more interested in money and they overwhelming support trade with India which is is producing not balance on ourside. Major wheat growing parts of India are not in India but Pakistan. Even Indian metrological dept watches wheather in their wheat growing regions in Pakistan. They have costly wheat there than pakistan so price potential difference starts a unending current of wheat flowing from Pakistan to India. Only good part is this trade is balanced as tire tube, vegetable, eat, live animals, Pharma products are traded indirectly for wheat and sugar is smuggled in Pakistan. But all above products can be purchased from China, if we have to trade ( more import than export) it is strategically better to send dollars to China than India. In addition you can see many automobile products from India hurting local markets. My feeling is actual uninformal trade is 10 times leagal trade. There is one trader in Karachi his Lorries "visit" india on regular basis not just for cultural reasons. This is so open secret they trade gifts on Eid and hindu Holidays. I am kind of old fashioned an do not touch alcohol which is very poisonious than venom of Snakes. In middle class and low level people they can have real drink made in northern cold waters of Scotland but it has become fashion to drink in lower income people, so they resort to drinking ceap "IMFL" ( India made foeign liquors). This is purposeful activity encouraged as economic transaction as wel as to dumb people by any ways.

It boils down to fundamental question is it responsibility of Pakistani state to take care of hordes of poor indians and Afghans especially when both races are hostile at same time.
This is war like situation, we do not like war but war may like us , should we not start stopping subsidizing cheap exported wheat from pakistan to masses in India and A.Stan.
I feel time has come to stop smuggling and stop feeding hostle poor indians as it is not our responsibility. There is need to feed indian and afghan masses and that should be done by NGO or UN etc, we are not in charity business to fatten our enemies.
Unless laking of whaet is stopped wheat prices will always be shooting up.
Good morning to all.

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anil - I agree that there is a real challenge with the india-obsession of otherwise "liberal" pakistanis. So many things are seen as coming from the "outside" - as you know in every suicide blast/attack in pakistan the first discussion is whether the indians are involved. Its quite bizarre, given that there is no history of this kind of indian extremism in pakistan and must reflect some very deep indoctrination or anxiety. One interesting question is where this comes from, as apparently a large section of society suffers from this disorder.

RiazHaq: Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan has given them the Taliban. I dont know how you can call any Afghani an ingrate.

And the provincial and federal government has betrayed the people of Swat by replacing their elected leaders with those who used the bullet.

Agha,

2 questions:

In my opinion, China should start playing a more active role in all of this. I understand your point of China waiting to let US bleed itself dead. But whether one agrees or not, China is at the least the greatest power in the region. Stability and peace brought about by the Chinese would enhance their stature.

Question 1: Why aren't the Chinese showing more interest?

I believe that the US would be relieved, albeit grudgingly, if the Chinese were to come in. (Same with India, I think). Your stand is that the US will not allow that to happen. So

Question 2: Why do you think that the US will not be happy with Chinese involvement?

(Please do not imply directly or indirectly that the US is stupid.)

On the whole liked your write-up and interacts. The write-up was perhaps a bit shoddy.

Regards,

GT.

Re: # 141
TrichMir: "Whatever Pakistan did for Afghans it did for those billions of dollars that were being given to Pak by the UN or other countries..."

You sound like another ingrate Afghan who has turned on its benefactor. Pakistan continues to provide the landlocked and mostly hardscrabble Afghanistan with the lifeline its people need to survive...in form of food (a lot Pak wheat/rice smuggled into Afghanistan from Pak), clothing (Afghanistan produces very little of it, Pak makes a lot), almost every item of necessity from screws to tools, machine components etc. Whatever Kabul doesn't have, people make a run to Islamabad to get it. Whenever Pakistan starts to get tough on smuggling (like it did due to wheat shortage), the effects are almost immediately felt in Afghanistan in terms of increased hunger and deprivation.

Pakistan has also been the popular escape route for Afghans now in the West most of whom now speak Urdu they learned in Pakistan.

But even if what you say is true about the billions of dollars Pak received and benefited from, it's clearly been a terrible bargain for Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 140

PMishra:

PMishra:

There is nothing, other than a perceived threat, that attracts a Pakistani policy maker’s mindset toward east of its border.

The kind of solidarity Pakistanis showed here at Chowk, on TV and the Economist described, in the aftermath of Mumbai attack and perceived attack from India confirms it. Predictably the same Pakistnai gurus claim that Pakistan's Nuclear bombs stopped India as well. Even if Indians may have been driven not to destroy their economy which is in a downturn as is the worldwide.

This shows that for better or worse, Pakistani mindset is extremely reluctant to accept new ground realities. I long to read articles and essays from Pakistani analysts to find if there is no mention of India or Indian ugliness it in.

Even Pakistani liberals seem to fall in this trap. Even though the negative image of India is a crutch that Pakistan does not need any longer. It refuses to give it up. With this crutch “not-India� identity remains stuck. Adversaries and rivals cooperate too.

Therefore, a common ground that is needed never occurs. Instead, again very predictable for such mindset, belittling of Vajpayee visit and magnification of Kargil conflict show up.

This is not to say that there is no provocation from Indian side. It is there. To me more important question is should Pakistan continue to react to such provocations, and continue to play in the hands of provocateurs? This is so ingrained that the action or reaction, to what happens in India or perceived to be happening there, is better explained with matter, anti-matter analogy.

I read the article that you mentioned from The Daily Times. The U.S. would factor this kind of mindset that exists inside Pakistan to its advantage. Even if similar phobia exists in India, it is too vast to be consumed in “Not-Pakistan� elements, therefore, these elements remain vocal.

American policy maker will not hope for it to die out. They will use it their advantage as the Pakistani response is almost always predictable. For instance they can keep speaking vague and soft words on Kashmir and pointed toward billions of dollars aid for guaranteed Pakistani response. The same applied for Nuclear Agreement, a very predictable response for America to act. I would not be surprised if a third party creates a situation between Pakistan and India, not as the final move in its game of chess, but to corner Pakistan and get it to fall in line.

However, what surprises me the most is that young Pakistani generation who had not to go through the trauma of partition seems to be even deeper in it. This is based on reading many posters here. It seems that domestically there is even reluctance to accept MQM as they are seen India connected.

Re: # 138
Pakistan would have been much better off if it hadn't come to the rescue of Afghans and refused entry to the Afghan refugees who have changed the character of Pakistan from a civil, peaceful and tolerant society to the lawlessness and religious zealotry evident today. I have fond personal memories of peaceful, clean and orderly Karachi in the 1970s before the influx of Afghan refugees in the 1980s.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


Whatever Pakistan did for Afghans it did for those billions of dollars that were being given to Pak by the UN or other countries to provide food and shelter to Afghan refugees and the bulk of that money never reached them. Ask any Afghan refugee from refugee camps like Jalozai or Shamshatoo about the life in those camps and they will tell you how miserable it was.

The reason of religious intolerance and Jihadi culture in Pakistan are the policies of Zia. Almost all of the Jihadi outfits are run by Punjabis, whether LeT or LeJ. Even the Talebans are the result of those thousands of madrasas that were run and financed by the Pakistani army in Pashtunkhwa in order to create gun fodder for the fight against Soveits and they could have never gained so much strength if the Pakistani army had not supported and nurtured them.

When the Talebans unleashed their barbarism on poor Afghans with the help of Pakistan and S.Arabia then instead of saving innocent Afghans civilians from their barbarism the Pakistani establishment justified the Taleban rule and their way of ruling by saying that Afghans have always lived like that. Forget Afghans, they have even left millions of Pakistani Pashtuns in Pashtukhwa at their mercy.

And now Afghans are also responsible for the ugliness of Karachi.

Nice article by US commentator in the excellent pakistani daily times. One paragragh stands out for me, it speaks to the mental confusion of people like Riaz Haq:

[quote]
There is one piece missing, and that involves the Pakistani mindset toward India. There are a number of analysts (include me on that list) who believe that until the India-centricity of Pakistani foreign and security policy is substantially modified, the country will find it very difficult to adjust its sights to the real danger the state of Pakistan faces from the West. This adjustment not only involves the army, though it is a critical actor in this drama, but the whole of civil society itself.

The India-centric focus of much of society and the military is, arguably, responsible for much of Pakistan’s deficiencies as a state, a nation, and a society. That is a subject that I may take up in some future column. This one is about President Obama’s strategy to help Pakistan overcome the existential challenge it faces.
[\quote]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=200941\story _1-4-2009_pg3_2

Major Amin,

I agree with everything you have to say about Zia and his reasons for siding with the US against the USSR--naked self interest and greed (and the less said about Akhtar Abdur Rehman the better).

Again I agree with you that if the choice was the USSR/Communists or the Mujahideen fundamentalists, virtually ALL educated Afghans (Pakhtoon and non-Pakhtoons) would have chosed the former.

However, there is a certain validity to the PakArmy's concern about maintaining a friendly (if not client) government in Afghanistan.

Daoud Shah was removed as Prime Minister by Zahir Shah in 1963. He was the main force behind the Pashtunistan claims and initiated active hostilities against Pakistan in Dir-Bajaur in 1961-62. In retaliation, Pakistan blockaded Afghanistan (after besting Afghan troops in border skirmishes). The peace brokered by the Shah of Iran removed Daoud Shah from power.

That is why Afghanistan was neutral during the 1965 and 1971 Wars. Daoud Shah staged a coup and took over in 1973. Not conincidentally, Afghanistan also started aiding the Baluch Insurgency. What would Pakistan's strategic situation have been like if Daoud Shah had been PM during the 1965 War? In 1971?

Re: # 131

Pavo: "the pashtuns led by my personal friend Aslam Watanjar were in the fore front of the Saur Revolution of 1978."

Thanks for clarifying your background and perspective. It makes sense that you would take the position you are taking as a supporter of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It puts you in the same category as Ahmad Rashid of Pakistan, a modern day imperialist Kipling who (like VS Naipaul) believes in the white man's burden to civilize the non-whites.

Zia may have done what he did for personal reasons to perpetuate his own power, but , in hindsight, Pakistan would have been much better off if it hadn't come to the rescue of Afghans and refused entry to the Afghan refugees who have changed the character of Pakistan from a civil, peaceful and tolerant society to the lawlessness and religious zealotry evident today. I have fond personal memories of peaceful, clean and orderly Karachi in the 1970s before the influx of Afghan refugees in the 1980s.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz sahib:

Pakistan has more fundamental problems. You are pointing fingers at the their effects and symptoms, convincing yourself and others that the causes are outside Pakistani borders. Allow me to list a few of these fundamental problems:

1. Not India as the identity, as if national identities are built on negation of another nation’s identity,

2. Attempts to create national identity based on religion only produced confused generation that has Masadi at the one end and Urstruly on the other end, in between is confusion galore of the kind highlighted by HPs and others,

3. Opportunistic play of its leaders at cost of building institutions,

4. Demand driven economy, and wasteful spending on military,

5. Incoherent education policy, not allowing the middle class to develop meritocracy,

6. Driving middle class to “foreign� education right from “O� levels,

What kind of respect this generation of “O� levels will have in Pakistani education and institutions?

You can close your eyes and keep pointing fingers, or look inside and do something. When a generation can bring a trash of the kind I mentioned, another can bring excellence out too. After all there was a period of excellence in that part of the world, no matter how you look at it, Islamic period, or pre-Islamic period. Even knoweldge flowed from that part into rest of India, something the most ardent hindutva wadi will acknowledge too.

Please quit finger pointing outside Pakistani borders, and get on the tasks to tackle fundamental problems. America will leave again once their interests are safe; India will threaten again when it feels threat from west of its borders.

Should Pakistanis waste their talents on these realities or address Pakistan's fundamental problems?

I do not think you have answered any of my questions and I do not expect you to answer these either.

there is no other piece of most refined b____l s____t other than strategic depth.

in both 1965 and 1971 wars afghanistan was neutral and friendly to pakistan so where is strategic depth.

talibans were invented to keep the pakistani military in business.....cheap pashtun fighters for kashmir .....ha ha ha and now the pashtuns realise .....they were used and made a fool of.

when kabul was attacked a million times and more between 1978 and 1992,civilian apartments attacked,students cafeteria attacked by hirelings it was jihad....when lahore is attacked baitullah mahsud is a foreign agent ....what a big joke.
Agha Amin

Re: # 131 agha

well said... Kabul may have been soviet-supported and but Kabul was a cosmopolitan city... Pakis destroyed Afganland - first by Anti-soviet jihad and then by hosting taliban...

Re: # 130 from Riaz
[...Pakistan has been the best friend of the Afghans through think and thin...]

Ha ha... what did I tell you guys.... this Riaz dude surpasses Romair in cluelessness...

Pakiland destroyed whatever was left of Afganland after soviets left - by sponsoring taliban on them... all in name of strategic depth... afgans freaking hate your guts, pashtuns included...

Re: # 130 riaz miah, aap bahut akalmand dikhayee deh rahen hain.

Bus, socho.

(a)Terray koh history aati naheen.
(b) terray koh musalmano ki history aati naheen
(c) terray koh pakistan ki history aati naheen.

Jarra jaa library mein ek aadh kitaabh pad. Yaadi terray ko maaloom naheen library kya hota hain mein bata hoon.

Library woh bada ghar hain, jahan har kamra kitaabon se bhara hua hain.

kya theek

munna jaa. jaa ke buttess sahib se bheekh maang ki woh tumare mimaagh wapas lelen

if the pakistanis and i mean the punjabi muslims and settled area pashtuns and muslims of delhi had any guts they would not have been rescued from marhattas and sikhs in 1803 and 1849 respectively ?

so which guts do you talk about.

no muslim unit from punjab and pashtun settled areas had the guts to refuse british orders to fire on muslim civilians.

only one unit an all hindu battalion of garhwal rifles refused to do this in peshawar i think in 1930.

in the army in first war only the afridis alizais the ranghar of 125th light infantry and the mashsuds now at war with the paki government had the guts to refuse british orders and join the turks and germans
Agha Amin

Re: # 130

the pashtuns led by my personal friend Aslam Watanjar were in the fore front of the Saur Revolution of 1978.The real hard core of Afghan leftists Tarraki and Hafeezullah Amin and Dr Najeeb were Pashtuns.So was the indomitable Gulabozai the interior minister who got the highest number of votes in 2005 elections.

now all educated and patriotic afghans hate the pakistani illegitimate military junta of zia which played the foremost role in destruction of all of Afghanistans infra structure from 1978 till 1988 for US dollars.

it is a misperception to state that non pashtuns sided with soviets.all educated and aware afghans pashtuns or non pashtuns sided with soviets.

now a word on motivation of pakistans zia regime fpr supporting afghan war.all for dollars and pakistan got 1000 times more than what it spent on afghans.some benefits:--

1-major aid packages from USA and saudis
2-second third and fourth highway loans from world bank
3-many other loans from europe japan etc

Sultan Khan Foreign secretary and ambassador to USA states in his book memoirs of a pakistani diplomat that i 1979 zia was ready to side with USSR for dollars in case USA did not give him dollars.

mr riaz haq needs to brush up his history knowledge.

without afghan war of 1978-92 and 2001-9 pakistan still would have been a backward country with fewer roads and infra structure.

no afghan worth his salt needs to be grateful to pakistan.

100 USD were paid to so called mujahids per electric pole for destruction.so this was the reason why afghans should be grateful.


Agha Amin

Re: # 117

Arjun: "The reality is that most afghans hate paki guts..including almost all the afghans I know in the US..."

Based on my own personal interactions with Afghans, the Pashtuns , the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, are quite friendly with Pakistan and Pakistanis in general. The non-Pashtuns, a minority, including Tajiks and Uzbeks are more friendly with India and many of them sided with the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

It appears that most of the respondents of this poll you cite are ethnic Tajiks and Uzbeks, supporters of the anti-Pak, anti-Taliban, and pro-India Northern Alliance.

Another reality that Atjun fails to point out is that Pakistan has been the best friend of the Afghans through think and thin, even at the expense of its own security and stability. Pakistan is host to the vast majority of Afghan refugees in the world, it's the main source of food to Afghans, and it's been the exit route for majority of the ungrateful Afghans now in the US.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Masadi is on to something and for 1ce I think there is quite a bit of truth in the same.

Arming Pak = Harming India

Arming Pak = Making them ally

Pak being targeted by Jihadis (most of their own manufacture some not) with tacit complicity of army police and intelligence people sympathetic to them

Pak in term targeting India with the establishment jihadis

India cannot retaliate due to US pressure

Retaliation may come against Indian muslims at some point of time

Game plan for disaster

Sanatani

Baitullah threatens attack on White House

Wednesday, April 01, 2009
Claims responsibility for Lahore and other attacks

By Mushtaq Yusufzai

PESHAWAR: Breaking his long silence, dreaded militant commander Baitullah Mahsud on Tuesday claimed responsibility for a series of recent terrorist attacks, including the Monday’s assault on a police training centre in Lahore.

Also, the top militant commander and leader of the banned Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), threatened to show his power to the world when his people would attack the US capital as a reaction to frequent drone attacks in the tribal areas and the reward on his head. The United States, it may be mentioned here, has offered a $5 million reward for his head.

//////////////////////////

There is some indication that the US has grasped the reality of pakistan. Today for the first time, Hilary has declared that pakistan is a global problem and all have to contribute. What I had been telling all along, london, 9/11, mumbai, philippinbes the common thread is pakistan, and with good reason due to the new strain of islam.

This can be contained only through a global action, de-nuking pakistan and resizing it. What is increasingly demonstrated is the convergence of paki army with the jihadis. Only a military action can defeat both, there is no way that the paki army will contain the jihadis, who share the same ideals with the paki army.

Re: # 126
majumdar,

Every one knows that the drones are operating with the paki armys support and they are operated from pakistan. The army has convinced the jihadis that the drones are due to the civil govt, the army is on their side, and are directing the jihadis to attack civil structures.

May be more than a year ago I had posted that the jihadis will respond to drone attacks with attacks in paki cities.

In pakistan the attacks like that in lahore and other places do not create much interest. Take the case of long march, many participated. A march to fight killings will not work. Most of the people of pakistan feel that the lahore type attacks are legitimate jihadi attacks.

All through pakistan there is wide spread support for the notion of jihad and as such they do not care.

No one is talking about benzir or marriot attacks. No one is arrested, no trials. They have a commission of inquiry, no criminal proceedings. A jihadic killing is not a crime in pakistan.

Jayp Garu,

The Us has responded to the lahore attack.

Some Pakistanis killed other Pakistanis in Lahore. Arjun mian's friends have responded by killing some more Pakistanis. Now Catchy mian's friends are going to retaliate by killing more Pakistanis.

Kinda wierd.

Regards

What next after lahore

It is important to note that the jihadis attack only the police and the para military which are in civil govt control. Military establishments are never attacked.

Now the police have arrested a few jihadis. The next step is a few paki army soldiers will be kdnapped. The paki army will force the police to release the jihadis in return for the paki army soldiers.

This is typically teh way the paki army support the jihadis. There is clear indication that the lahore attack is an isi operation.

The arrested jihadis by the police will be released soon at insistence of the paki military.

It is important to note that all those captured in response to the mumbai attack are in the paki military custody, not the paki police custody to ensure that their links to the ISI do not come out.

Understanding the pak situation

For quite some time, the pakis have been advancing the notion of good jihadis and bad jihadis. Now the world has accepted that there is no such notion as a good jihadi.

The next learning for the world is that there is no difference between paki army and jihadis. The main bulk of both come from the madrassas and many do not realize that the paki army also is a jihadic army, " jihad in the name of god' is their motto.

That is the very reason why the paki army does not fight the jihadis. All along they typically provide some warnings to the jihadis, once they are away, the go with helicopters and demolish vacant mud huts which the jihadis build back in a few days.

Even with all the bribe that the US is providing, there is no way that the paki army is going to attack the jihadis. Most of the time they simply surrender as per their training routine to the jihadis.

PESHAWAR, PAKISTAN: A suspected US missile strike hit a suspected Taliban and al-Qaida training centre in northwest Pakistan on Wednesday,
killing 12 militants, security officials said.

Two missiles struck the suspected Taliban and al-Qaida den, 25 kilometres (16 miles) northeast of Hangu in the semi-autonomous Orakzai tribal region, an extremist stronghold in northwest Pakistan, a security official said.

//////////////////

The Us has responded to the lahore attack.

Re: # 117,118 Mr Arjun... The indian popularity is more than usa and pakistan for simple reason they are not much involved or has no influence as usa and pkistan.This is normal thing all around. Normally Iceland will have good rating everywhere as they hve not influence so people IMAGINE they are better than others present.And from long distance mountain appears green. Some time little things count more than real things. India tried best to Save Najib up to end and almost they were about fly, he and his brother.Najib is remember by Afghans as after departure of russians he tried his level best till mr.A Rashid dostam decided to back stab him. So all pathans and others who were opposed to Talibs were grateful to efforts of India and they were nearly successful before ISI got info and they moved fast to stop aNajib and executed. Abdulla Abdulla, Najib, and many others families lived in India is well known fact. Indians have done good in propaganda dept like giving 6 very old planes to start airline, Hospital in Kabou and Tajikstan ( tajik leader masud after killing attempt was flown to Indian hospital in Tstan, artificial legs provision , providing over 200 busses is peanuts compared to money spent by usa per day. Indians has good Publicity dept and one has to agree. Then road joing towards Chahbahar is really done to break dependence on Karahi not out of love.And one thing poor uneducated people like ismovies and Indians produce bunch ofthem compared to Pakistan or usa. American movies in english wthout dance and songs is not starter and Pakistani movies are discriminated. Indian movies taeget lowest denominator of afghans and they like dumbed down indian movies. People are crazy about movies, even some Talibs watch secretly risking their head .
Hope you will understand cheap and valger people and their movies are always popular. People make wrong choices based on wrong speculation.
Ratings do not count, how much India has power to change things there . compared to Pakistan nothing. Indians Afghan think are good but for nothing worth much than vulger movies and sensuous typpe songs laced with vulger and bad thoughts.
Good day. Move to real things , this vote coutning is useless.

the central point that is being made is that USA is in Afghanistan for a long term plan.twits like pakistan are not its ultimate targets.pakistan at best is an irritant.china and russia are the real issue for USA.

on the other hand Russia and China will not allow USA to succeed,whatever strategy Obama recites after being fed a script.

Pakistan has no Afghan policy or any policy.General Zia was after survival for his illegitimate regime and as per foreign secretary sultan khan was as keen to join USSR after afghan invasion as long as USSR gave him the money.So there was no policy.

The real essence of the matter is that this is the struggle of the anglo saxon dominated atlantic rim and the central contender states led by china and russia.as long as the conflict in the two remains hot pakistan or any smaller countries benefit.

in pakistan th main hurdle to peace are the generals who gain in a state of perpetual conflict with india.

these generals in turn orchrestrate the game of musical chairs of politicians .

the main theme was not that russia is good or bad .that was going off the tangent.

i still maintain that pakistan is a short term target and russia and china are long term objectives of USA.
Agha Amin

Oye Roos aur Amrika ki qabroN k mujawaro! kabhi pakistani bhi ban kar dekho.

Re: # 89
pavo...
exactly...as a friend, USSR was less subjugative than NATO and USA and far more committed.....but as a friendly nation, most of the countries, which sided with NATO/USA benefitted more than those aligned with USSR...India is classic example of this.... When China shifted from USSR camp to USA camp, they have started seeing the light of prosperity....Pakistan would have been like any typical islamic (like that of Afghanistan) and was bound to doom...whether Pakistan sided with USA or not....at least USA is delaying that final destiny of Pakistan, through aid and other helps....as leaden said, may be within another 15 years...entire Pakistan will be isotope of 7th century Medina.....

I know pakis have a problem with reality...now, it turns out, they have a slight math problem too..

take a look at the favorability ratings for countries...

pakiland has a whopping 91% disapproval rating in afghanistan..

of course, pakiland's favorability rating in the Us is at 12%...

reality is biased against pakis..

capt clueless type pakis love to pull facts out of their rears and act all knowledgeable..

The reality is that most afghans hate paki guts..including almost all the afghans I know in the US...

Here's a BBC poll

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_02_09afghan_poll_2009.pdf



Q35. Do you think the Pakistan government is allowing the Taliban to operate within its borders, or trying to stop the Taliban from operating there?
2009
Is allowing :67
Trying to stop: 24
No opinion: 9


Q38. Now I’m going to ask what you think about some people and groups. Is your opinion of …… very favorable, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable, or very unfavorable?

The Taliban
Very favourable :3
Somewhat favourable: 4
Somewhat unfavourable: 12
Very unfavourable: 79
No opinion:2

The United States
Very favourable :7
Somewhat favourable: 40
Somewhat unfavourable: 25
Very unfavourable: 27
No opinion:1

Pakistan
Very favourable :1
Somewhat favourable: 7
Somewhat unfavourable: 26
Very unfavourable: 65
No opinion:1


India
Very favourable :27
Somewhat favourable: 47
Somewhat unfavourable: 13
Very unfavourable: 8
No opinion:5

shankar #: "This seems like a classic whore/john relationship. The whore does what she does because the alternative is worse than the profession...."

yes, this is true........but, true only at the govt. level.....not at the people's level......by the way, the alternative is much better for pakistan; though not for the elected elite.....

.....i am in pakistan, and there is a change in the air....i have never seen anything like it before in my life, in pakistan.....there is a great amount of fear and hope for the future.....no one knows which one will win out........

i had, always, said that pakistan does not have the pre-requisite social maturity to become an immediate democracy etc., hence economic growth should be used as an engine to reach such maturity.....

perhaps, i could not have been more wrong.....

......there is a social maturity rapidly developing in pakistan......civil society is coming alive, in a manner, which i have not seen anywhere......it is kind of like the formulative years of the usa, french (or indian) democracy......

......of the four pillars of the state, media is fully up and running......pakistani news analysis, coverage, balance etc. is better than what i have seen in most places......much better than what i see in india (e.g. the recent terrorist caught in lahore is an afghani, but the pakistani media hasn't riled up the whole country to attack afghanistan; like india's media did after mumbai).....

......the judiciary is starting to mature......a national movement to restore judges is something i have not seen anywhere......usually, such movements are for politicians.....

......this leaves the executive and legislature......these have a long way to go to get to the level of, even, india; much less to the level of western democracies.....

......but these are being forced to come around, due to the media and judiciary......musharraf, the mighty executive is a defeated and humiliated man......as is salman taseer (was never mighty).....and zardari is well on his way to the same fate.....nawaz etc. have been forced to change their ways......

this leaves the legislature......it has passed resolutions to disengage from the war.......but, as per your definition, the leadership is still in the hands of those who are very scared of the usa (unnecessarily in my opinion).......

this will change......there is already a lot of pressure on the legislature and executive to change......i think one more election, and pakistan will grow balls........

the only question is what will happen in between........baitullah mehsud launches an attack in lahore to avenge deaths from usa drones........usa keeps asking (threatening) pakistan govt. to support drone attacks, as it wants to kill baitullah mehsuds......

pakistan was never at war with baitullah and never at war with the usa.....yet the people being killed by both are pakistanis......this is why it needs to get out of this war.....

p.s. i have always wondered why pakistan has had massive balls to stand up to (and even threaten and attack) india - a country eight times its size in every way.......yet never has the balls to even squeak in front of the usa........

Re: # 114

"...I don’t know Soviets judged countries by religions but despite their many faults, they were certainly religion-blind...."

So true.

OT-
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903u/netanyahu
“In an interview conducted shortly before he was sworn in today as prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu laid down a challenge for Barack Obama. The American president, he said, must stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons—and quickly—or an imperiled Israel may be forced to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities itself.�

Hehehe

In this week's New Yorker, Seymour Hersh reports that, just before leaving office, Dick Cheney told the Israelis that Obama is a wimp and could be ignored.
This deserve another big hehehe!

#67 Posted by pavocavalry
“the USSR was a great friend of Muslims.If you study the Russians and compare them with chinese or USA , the Russians are far superior.Remember china was all ready to ditch vietnam in 1971-72.it was only with USSR help that vietnam played hell with americans.�

A good observation.

I don’t know Soviets judged countries by religions but despite their many faults, they were certainly religion-blind. If they were bad they were bad to all and if they were good they were good to all. I doubt they had any preferences based on religion. The central Asian countries were occupied by Russia and the USSR hung on to them. The truth is that the development that took place in central Asian countries under the Soviets has not been matched by any measure after the USSR fall. Since the fall of the USSR, the central Asian countries and their populations have suffered economically and all the progress has been stalled. The result is the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in several central Asian countries. If unchecked, the central Asian problems would dwarf anything that we see in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Leadenwinter no amount of BS on your part will restore Musharraf to power. He is finished, you moron.

TNITC masadi

As part of President Barack Obama's new initiative for online outreach, I was invited this morning to participate in a US State department's webchat on Mr. Obama's new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. You can check out the detailed transcript on my blog.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

In the UK .. they're preparing for Pakistani refugees..

Musharraf supporter Leadenwinter is back to add to the mix of morons that roam these chowk streets. In the interim when he was gone, Pakistan gained a lot by defeating its military through restoration of the judges. Now if only it can understand the US shenanigans (that do not have Obama as the author- he is a pawn) then we can further strengthen our institutions and kick the sob sellouts like leadenwinter and the miserable generals out of the country....

TNITC masadi

Been a long time.. :)

In the interim as I predicted .. these last elections would be the end .. and lo and behold ..

Pakistan is finished .. Islamabad will probably be like Kabul by March 2010.. and then the faithful can grow their beards and pray and do all the Muslim things they're dying to do. Masadi .. shall be the Minister for Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue..

Other interactors .. get visas now ... go to Canada..

Masadi mian: Another, when will be present your proof positive evidence on God, that you have claimed?

Masadi mian: Get over it. You don't have to become crooked Indian astrologer or a charalton.

Don't be so ignorant, Masadi. War is a war, which time is was fought notwithstanding. I know you know it.

In post WW II, there was a deliberate cold war that ended with the disintegration of Soviet. Even though there was some cooperation on Hydrogen Bombs. Adversaries fight, when interests clash. Nations have interest and people have friends.

And don't waste my time.........learn some English and get a goddamned education and get over your Islamo-phobia....

TNITC masadi

"Were the Soviets and America on the same side?

Is Islamic Warriors' brutality against against the Persians, the vanquished, is recorded or not?

Get over you prejudices and see the living day light."


Moron, you didn't put any "facts" down. Islamic warriors and Persians bear no semblance to the US and Soviet Union, or the current world order that was designed post WW2. The Soviets were being used by the US/UK in WW2, their losses and the brunt of the German military might they faced proves that, the US/UK were double crossing their allies as usual. Post WW2 the US/UK initiated rhetoric about the "Iron curtain" and what not...get your history straight you moron.

TNITC masadi

Here is the US's new "Afghan" strategy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090331/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

ISLAM ABAD – Pakistan's Taliban chief claimed responsibility Tuesday for a deadly assault on a police academy, saying he wanted to retaliate for U.S. missile attacks on the militant bases on the border with Afghanistan. Baitullah Mehsud, who has a $5 million bounty on his head from the United States, also vowed to "amaze everyone in the world" with an attack on Washington or even the White House...

-----

So, as I stated that if the "Barack Conspiracy" backfires, the U.S. elite will get rid of Obama, this "getting rid of" will be blamed on Pakistan, leading to a US occupation of the Western frontier, leading to a "mini Pakistan", leading to an invasion of Iran.....Let us see if Obama can save himself while the rest of the script plays out as planned...the six month testing period the Biden talked about is fast approaching, and the U.S media is documenting things like the above "news" just to prep the public...Those 'bearded ones' are on the CIA's payroll, they don't have a clue about what the "white house" is leave alone its location....all CIA BS.


TNITC masadi

Masadi:

Refute my facts, rather than utter nonsense, which is untrue?

Were the Soviets and America on the same side?

Is Islamic Warriors' brutality against against the Persians, the vanquished, is recorded or not?

Get over you prejudices and see the living day light.

Anil all you can respond with to the facts that describe world war 2 is with your anti-Islam bigotry which always gets you 'lost in time'. We are not discussing Islam comprendey, we were discussing US and Soviets post WW2.

TNITC masadi

fuzair

just an observation... but thanks anyway...

Major Saab,

Thank you for the update; very informative.

Regards.

Looks like this Riaz Haq dude is another Romair in the making...

Masadi ji:

What will you say about the Islamic invaders, and Persian who were butchered and supressed?

Only bottom line is that Russian were also on the winning side and hence could not be suppressed, just as America was. Before WW II, European empires, not America, which were stronger.

Then why do you care about the facts, afterall you are a snake oil salesman. Trying to create a majuma at Chowk and eager to claim a following, and call others names and jealous. Undeniable fact is that you cannot take a challenge from another equally, if not more, intelligent person like Riaz or others.

Please get over it.

US stooge RiazHaq writes "As any other empire, the Russians looked after their own imperial interests..."

No sir they reacted to the imperial interests of the US after having lost over 20 million in WW2 (as against the 200,000 lost by the US), facing the brunt of the German war machine, they wouldn't play dead and hand over the world to the US or merely let belligerents occupy those sections from where they had been attacked multiple times, as the Poland corridor. Unfortunately for them it was a losing game from the beginning. Empire building has remained the forte of the UK/US and not the SU. As most of the 3rd world nations had been let down by the colonials they themselves turned to socialism, as did Pakistan leading to the barbaric reactions by the US. The Soviets merely reacted to the US shenanigans, it was the US game they were playing and so they lost, just as playing the US game Pakistan will lose. India was non aligned and so their help by the Soviets is commendable. Pakistan through Badabar was clearly in bed with the Americans and had an undeclared war with the Soviets, how should they have reacted? Unlike the fair weather friends that the US was to Pakistan using it as a whore, the Soviets were at least sincere in their alliances.

Kissinger the damn fool was manipulating the facts when he wrote that nations have interests. Nations have friends but some nations are predatory and rule through force of arms even when direct interests are not discernible or related to their target- the US is such a nation.

TNITC masadi

Masadi mian ji looks for problems in others, that is why he cannot solve any problem. Isn't this similar to someone who cheats in the exam and look for answers else where.

Re: # 87

Riaz:

"...As any other empire, the Russians looked after their own imperial interests..."

Very astute.

Masadi mian ji:

You are desparate, next you will claim political Islam was created by the U.S.

arjun writes "Zbig was a Carter man. And how does a rational person go from this quote to "the US created the taliban".."

Read HPs post to understand the process through which it occurred with the blessings of the US. Zbig might have been a "carter man" that does not mean he cannot make conclusions from the beginning of the process to its logical conclusion. Further he is not only 'carter's man' but an insider- you don't become the president's 'man' without Washington/corporate/military connections.

TNITC masadi

Romair,

"Pakistan needs to disengage from the war"

yeah yeah...you said that a million times. I'm not debating your logic.

I'm waiting to see some Pakistani leader who has the balls to stand up to the US & say "goodbye, we don't want your money!"

When it comes to India, Pakistani courage puffs up like an adder. What is it?!...getting bombed into the stone age?...not getting anymore aid?..what terrifies you about the US?!...

I think the Taleban are the only people who have the kohones to say that & mean it...

This seems like a classic whore/john relationship. The whore does what she does because the alternative is worse than the profession. The John has a need & knows it can be satisfied (albiet badly) by paying money.

like the pashtuns being bombed like hell in bajaur and drone attacked and when something happens in lahore pakistanis squeal

what i meant was that the USSR due to some reasons played a major role in liberation of many afro asian countries
Agha Amin

#87 Good post.

Re: # 67
Amin: "the USSR was a great friend of Muslims.If you study the Russians and compare them with chinese or USA , the Russians are far superior."

I don't understand how any one can make a general characterization of this nature. As any other empire, the Russians looked after their own imperial interests. They have slaughtered Chechens and Afghans, subjugated central Asian republics, supported the Serb massacres of Muslims, supported the destruction of the Ottomans in a deal with Brits, allowed emigration of millions of Russian Jews to Israel where most of them settled on Palestinian lands occupied after 1967, supported India against Pakistan with all the military hardware, even delivering emergency aid via Egypt when the Indians ran out of parts and ammo, when the US applied sanctions on Pak, ..etc etc. The list goes on.

I think it's best if we stop thinking in terms of "friends of Muslims". As Kissinger puts it, Nations have interests, not friends or principles. So the friendships are usually temporary and driven by interests, not personal emotions.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#81 by Captain Clueless

i am surprised at all the gung-ho expatriates from pakistan (and india) who want pakistan to be on the forefront of this self-destructive unwinnable war......if they are so into it, why don't they volunteer for the usa army and get deployed to afghanistan, to fight in gwot.......

And so were you until reality bitch slapped you back into your senses. Not so long ago, you were the biggest proponent of the US invasion of Afghanistan. In fact, you'd claimed that IT sucked as a career and you'd love to wear the PAF uniform again and lead US troops into that country. You might have forgotten that mother of all gaffes, but we won't and we won't let you forget it for long.

#84 exactly.

#83 Posted by tahmed32 on March 31, 2009 6:00:25 am


as tens of thousands of muslim women were raped, thousands of muslim men brutally killed


and when that happened in east pakistan, the pakistani army stepped in to the rescue..

oh..wait..

#77 "USA supported bosnian muslims because russians supported serbia"

Not exactly. The USA came to the rescue of the bosnians after muslims watched idly by as tens of thousands of muslim women were raped, thousands of muslim men brutally killed, in bosnia. If it was simply because "russians supported serbia", the US would have stepped in on day 1.

btw, Where were you then???? Not a peep out of the clowns of the muslim world at the time.

Pavo...
you are far senior to me and definitely know more. But, I find no reason, why USA will try to destabilize Pakistan. What will they achieve from chaotic Pakistan? Regarding Afghan war, Pakistan was involved in the war, much for it's own stake than that of USA. If Russian backed govt. was installed in Afghanistan, Pakistan would have faced problem from 3 sides (Iran, India and Afghanistan)...So, what Zia had done is for the sake of Pakistan and got nice support from USA.....

akcheema #: "it is as much Pakistan's war as the 'jihad' against the Soviets ... that led to destruction of Afghanistan for years to come at the hands on none other than the Pakistanis themselves (directly and indirectly) "

.....i am not sure what this has to do with actually staying involved in this war......

russians, americans, and pakistanis (in that order) have destroyed afghanistan......no one is debating that......i have been working with afghanis, recently......had a detailed discussion with him, on this subject.....he told me the most hated people in afghanistan right now, are americans........followed by pakistan......interestingly, he told me russians aren't really hated.....and indians are the most popular......

.....in any case the first afghan war wasn't pakistan's war either.......pakistan, for no rhyme or reason, became a frontline us ally.....and destroyed itself in the process....

....the second one is definitely not pakistan's war......were the afghanis going to attack pakistan?.....were the tribal area folks going to attack pakistan?.......were the taliban going to attack pakistan?......

how in the world was pakistan threatened by afghanistan.......why jump in with the usa?......into an unwinnable war......

......pakistan should have dumped the taliban (shouldn't have supported them in the first place)......and then told the usa to fight the war by itself in afghanistan.....it should never have agreed to the logistical supply line to the war.......once one joins the logistics, one becomes part of the war.......as we can see......

........pakistan needs to get out of this war....and then start cleaning up the blowback mess in pakistan......for its own good.......not because the usa wants it to do more.......

i am surprised at all the gung-ho expatriates from pakistan (and india) who want pakistan to be on the forefront of this self-destructive unwinnable war......if they are so into it, why don't they volunteer for the usa army and get deployed to afghanistan, to fight in gwot.......

Re: # 77
pavo...
Russians are communists. They neither support muslas, nor the jews...they are anti-israel and anti-pakistan for the same reason...it is not proper to say Russians are sympathetic to muslim world...so are the chinkus...if some country, which sided with muslem countries consistantly, that is India (until recently and except Pakistan)...India had far better relationship with Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Palestine than most of the other muslim countries....and the way GoI dole money for Haj etc...

U S of A has no binding for Christians, Moslems etc...
Apart from Israel, they will dump any country, including GB....if moslem world provided enough support to Israel, they would have got true friend in U S A. At least, for last couple of decades, moslem countries needed U S of A more than the vice versa....
Suppose US of A had not intervened in Afghan conflict. Do you feel Russians would have spared Pakistan after capturing Afghanistan? You Pakistanis are real *****.....

Re: # 71

Madani sahib:

"...China has devasted Pakistani Industires and they manupulate all time and smuggle and dump officially..."

This is one of the most profound statements expressed on Chowk. Chinese have a used export based manufacturing complex, then will crush their competition or if they get hostage (in case of Pakistan) they will kill them, and not bring back the prisoners.

Chinese have muscles (reserves) to ensure their lead. It is one thing to be a competitor (USA), and another to be a hostage (Pakistan).

Amin sahib:

Why do you expect love between nations? Nations have interests and people have friends (love). I fail to see the point you are making with the statement about USA, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Russia.

Right now the U.S. is not in Afghanistan to contain Russia.

I am certain your strategic thinking must be based on above facts.

USA supported bosnian muslims because russians supported serbia ,this is a matter of policy , muslims were used as stupid tools in afghanistan by USA and in Bosnia and now kosovo,all in opposition to russia,this does not make USA anything in love with muslims,the USA is happy both ways i.e if a muslim is killed or a russian is killed ,they see both as snakes of different colours,ha ha ha
Agha Amin

SC restores Shahbaz Sharif as CM Punjab
Updated at: 1305 PST, Tuesday, March 31, 2009
ISLAMABAD: The Supreme Court of Pakistan has issued a stay order on Tuesday against the disqualification of Pakistan Muslim League-N President Mian Shahbaz Sharif. Mian Shahbaz Sharif has been restored as Chief Minister of Punjab immediately following the issuance of the stay order.

The apex court bench, headed by Justice Tassaduq Hussain Jilani, heard Sharif brothers’ eligibility case. According to the verdict, Shahbaz Sharif's government has been restored and he will continue serving as chief minister till the Supreme Court passes a final verdict into Sharif brothers’ eligibility case.


/////////////////////////////////

the ilks of tahmed might call this restoration of judiciary. The reality is that this confirms that there is now law or justice in pakistan, who ever appoints a judge will see that the court will support him. Now nawaz has put the judges back, and he can expect total support from the CJ. Pathetic...the sharia and taliban are much better than this sham of courts and judges.

Good to see the latest jihadi attack in lahore. The same madrassa products, some join the paki army, the other joins the jihadi.

The police are under civilian control, the paki army does not like it and hence the isi has coordinated this attack.

Do not forget the attack on the srilankans, as I said, no one will be arrested, now they have an enquiry by a judge into teh cricket attack, no crimal actions, no police involved, simply because it was an isis operation.

The latest lahore attack also is by the isi. One jihadi has been caught....wait..he had an afhgahn passport in his pocket...proof of of foreign involvement...isi is trying very hard.

Re: # 67
Pavo...
"the USSR was a great friend of Muslims..."

LOL...after hellfire missiles started raining on Pakiland, USSR/Russia had become friend of muslas!!!!...

BTW, Russians supported Serbians during Balkan crisis and still Pakis burn Russian flag supporting musla rebels in Chechnia....
Pavo, is this kind of show of gratitude, related to Russia allowing Chinkus to export RD33 engine to Pakistan?

Re: # 18
"....you have a keen eye my friend...."

And your friend had only opened just ONE eye that fateful morning!

:)

bulleya [[......to say, it was pakisatan's war is ridiculous......it never was......never follow a losing cause....]]

it is as much Pakistan's war as the 'jihad' against the Soviets ... that led to destruction of Afghanistan for years to come at the hands on none other than the Pakistanis themselves (directly and indirectly)

Re: # 67 American are mercantile people and enterprising they will eat and throw bones.
Chinese put americas to shame , they will chew bones and eat.
At height of Vietnam war when Russians were sending Ships carrying supplies at hyphang and getting bombed Chinese were holding Soivet frieghters of train and Poor Uncle Ho had to fly raining bombs going to Chinese to beg to release supplies so SA missiles start flyinng.
China has devasted Pakistani Industires and they manupulate all time and smuggle and dump officially. It is even hard for officials to say the truth as it is against friendly policy.
China as mastered great demeaner of politeness and cutting chunk of flesh they want. They are so smooth talking, they will pull your gold tooth and you will have to thank them for their help.
Any way we are happy people , god is great.
Good afternoon.

Re: # 67; pavocavalry

[[.If you study the Russians and compare them with chinese or USA , the Russians are far superior]]

I agree witn you on that ... after Afghanistan an ongoing influence of ideas from that part of the world would have been a positive thing for Pakistan too (imo)

Field Marshall Romair,

Re: 65

......to say, it was pakisatan's war is ridiculous......it never was......never follow a losing cause.....

If my memory serves me right, you were rather enthusiastic about US invasion of A'stan in 2001 even more so than Tahmed chachoo's support of invasion of Iraq. While he had merely penned a qasida in favour of Yanks, you had actually wished you cud give up your day job to join the invasion.

Regards

Romair... as a lover of music you can enjoy following. At age of less than 40 is very great rendering. There are some minute discordent notes but hard for most to note, some words are not clearly said, but it goes with Kirana Gayaki being nonpuritan and melodious notes is goal, really trailblazing, also he moves in all octaves in so agile way worth noting. It is so joy to speculate as he ages ( he knows music exceedingly) as that depth accompanied by sublimation of presentation like aged wine. I may not be that that fortunate as we age but many can.

You ae amoung few who enjy this type of music, so digressed to bring to your notice. Hope you enjoy all beautiful notes .
Good afternoon
http://www.esnips.com/playlist/31f34d0b-3218-45c9-9745-669ab568a229
(puriya Dhansree)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/7f2dd597-79a3-453a-ad18-f00f5b3aecde/puriya -kalyan
http://www.esnips.com/doc/2222d60e-fda6-46a5-9f95-fc499c042835/maru-bih ag
http://www.esnips.com/doc/847e11c9-9c3a-4cd5-bd66-727ab72c22c6/yaman

Madani Sahib , i am 100 % in agreement with you.

the USSR was a great friend of Muslims.If you study the Russians and compare them with chinese or USA , the Russians are far superior.Remember china was all ready to ditch vietnam in 1971-72.it was only with USSR help that vietnam played hell with americans.
Agha Amin

Re: # 65 Interesing note. But you need to note we are suffering due to loss morality , making moneyy for mudering own people . We are not doing this for moral reasons but immoral reasons as propely referred as for blood money. When we do right things it takes long time to get any results hopefully sweet, same way we are doing immoral behaviour habitually, by habits we I become immoral nation and bad things done for long time it takes long time, over 60 years to seeding grow in huge tree with poisonous fruits.
There is is vey didatic saying in german language with guesto. But to make assesible for everybody will translate as best as possible.
If money is lost nothing is lost , if health is lost something is lost, but if CHARACTOR IS LOST THEN EVERYTHING IS LOST.
good afternoon and good luck everybody.

...when was the last time, the usa, actually, won a war......considering the massive military budgets of the usa, i am surprised, it has so many failures.......the first iraq war is the only one i can think of.....(capturing noriega was not a war).....

...this would be a clear indication that the usa military's strategic decision making is extremely poor......as poor as pakistan's, if not worse.......

.....so if the brainpower of strategic decision making in afghanistan, is usa, followed by pakistan, then the chance of winning is next to zero.......

.......the afghan war has gone on longer than wwII.....i am quite sure this wasn't the original plan......if it hasn't been won yet, i doubt it will ever be won by the usa.....pretty soon allies like canada, etc. are going to start moving their troops out.....

what happens then?

.....setting aside all these theories about encircling china and russia, or destabilizing pakistan, etc......(which till proven are still theories), one has to look at the current war, itself........

.........the usa has lost......pakistan, stupidly, joining the usa has lost......it is time for pakistan to cut its losses, and to get out of this un-winnable war......

......there is a direct relationship between terrorism in pakistan and the usa's invasion of afghanistan........this is not a coincidence.......how many suicide bombings were there in pakistan, prior to usa's invasion of afghanistan?.......in fact, in the history of the ghandhara and indus civilization, how many were there?.......how many are there now.....

......to say, it was pakisatan's war is ridiculous......it never was......however, now that pakistan has jumped into it wholeheartedly, with the usa, it has moved into pakistan......and the longer pakistan stays involved in it, the deeper it will move in......

never follow a losing cause.......usa has lost in afghanistan......pakistan needs to disengage.......let the usa encircle china or iran or timbaktu on its own......

after pakistan disengages, it will take another x no. of years, to filter out the mess that has moved into pakistan, because of its participation in this war (and in the previous one)......

pakistan needs to decide: - pakistan should stay in this war and increase its participation, because a terrorist attack has occurred in lahore......or the terrorist attack occurred because pakistan got into this war in the first place?

......i wonder what the usa would have done, if so many terrorist attacks were occurring in its cities.......i think it would have dumped afghanistan and left it a long time ago.....i can say with certainity, its nato allies would have left (and will leave)........

whenever a country becomes the logistical supply line of a war, it gets pulled into the war.....which is what has happened.....

Mr. A. Amin.... With time it is appearing state of pakistan from first day it became mercantile operation and army entered in renting business. It started as begging operation for 30 billion marshall plan in 1948 as suggested and always thinking in terms anti soviet base which was very regressive. It was sin for in 50s soviets were only obstacle to old emperialist urges by british and new mighty americans. It was extremely against people struggling to free themselves to go away from colonial entanglements. Suez Canal was classic example when L.A.Khan etc openly sided with British, frenchand israili taking of suez canal. Even USA was appaled by naked use of muscle power. There was no reason for antisoviet attitude . On world scene muslims were helped by soviets. Persons like Bena Bella of algeria, Nassar , Ho Chi Minh , Lumumba and throughout world even after devasting losses of 2nd world war ( over 22 million deaths and devastation of western industrial regins to south towards cacuous mountain was devasted) only soviets were trying to help new emerging nations. Miserably and immoral PK leadership was ganging up against and ready to stab aginst all liberation movements internally and externally. We never felt bad or remorse that we have become house of ill repute for americans and aided and allowed airbases allowing flights over SU. That is national tragedy , not even Bhutto or any other expressed sorry or asked for forgiveness from SU. We lost morality and we will kill , muder anybody if price is right. Now all parties from rightwing to centerleft readily accept role as surrogate of usa. It is pretty hypocritical now to complaint about USA drones. It just not tactics for more dollars. Not even one leader of worth any following openly says stop this money for murder business and stop engaging in extracurricular activities. Progressive world treated pakistan as nation to be avoided . People in life we regard gentlema when they are not back stabbers or thriving on blood money. It pains me why no one suggests let us impriove morally ourselves and do our wrk hardway at home. Everybody is for begging ball and complaint against America is just about rate for rent. Hard and moral life is far better mporally and it is worth. If we fail as nation for moral ways and suffer financially we will have respect for ourselves but now we are failing even our national ill plans of becoming little sucker on American largeness and going as hired hands. Average man understands what is hapening and general immorality make Talibs as sincere fanatics,but at least moral in their way and that attracts awams under current symapathy and many people root for lessons for rent for price army.
It depresses me quite, so in retirement try help students in mathematics, listen to music and may times leave reading news ,Play with my cats, I am blessed can not watch much , saves seeing obscene immoral talking parroting slavary and pick pocketting money.
It is depressing not only economy but our economic ways about morality.

Insurgent Threat Shifts in Pakistan
Assault on Police Academy Indicates Risk Has Moved Beyond Tribal Areas

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, March 31, 2009; A01

KABUL, March 30 -- The brazen occupation of a Pakistani police academy Monday by heavily armed gunmen near the eastern mega-city of Lahore was the latest indication that Islamist terrorism, once confined to Pakistan's northwest tribal belt, now threatens political stability nationwide.

The precisely orchestrated assault by a squad of young men, which left at least 11 people dead and took security forces nearly eight hours to quell, was also a likely sign that Islamist militant groups in Punjab province, once tolerated and even supported by the Pakistani state to fight in India and Afghanistan, have turned openly against the government.

The assault in the once-peaceful Punjabi heartland came four weeks after an attack in Lahore in which gunmen opened fire on a visiting Sri Lankan cricket team, killing seven people. The latest attack raised new questions about the vulnerability of Pakistan, a nuclear-armed Muslim state with a weak civilian government that only recently emerged from a decade of military rule. Lahore, home to more than 10 million people, is a bustling provincial capital and is generally considered the cultural heart of the country.

"The realization that this problem is now no longer confined to a buffer zone with Afghanistan must dawn on everyone in Pakistan," said Shuja Nawaz, a Pakistani American military expert, speaking from Washington. "Pakistan has the wherewithal to deal with the problem, but does its leadership have the will to do so?"

Pakistani officials, normally given to blaming India or other foreign adversaries for fomenting anti-government violence, were unusually frank in denouncing Monday's attack as the probable work of domestic terrorists, who they said were attempting to destabilize the country.

Rehman Malik, the government's top civilian security official, told journalists in Islamabad, the capital, that there are "thousands of trained workers of banned militant organizations present in Pakistan who could be used by foreign elements." He mentioned three armed Islamist groups -- Lashkar-i-Taiba, Lashkar-i-Jhangvi and Jaish-i-Muhammad -- and said the perpetrators had staged an "assault on the integrity of the country."

At least a dozen young assailants traveling on foot used grenades, assault rifles and rockets to commandeer a rural training compound in Manawan, just a few miles from the border with India, as hundreds of police recruits were beginning early morning parade drills. The attackers took dozens of trainees hostage and held security forces at bay until late afternoon, when a commando team stormed the complex, killing several gunmen. Some of the gunmen who survived the raid surrendered, while others blew themselves up.

Witnesses to the siege, including police trainees who managed to escape the compound as the fighting continued, said they heard the attackers speaking in Punjabi and in a southeast Pakistani dialect.

The escapees described seeing 15 to 20 armed men in their 20s, many of whom had beards and some of whom wore suicide vests. They said some of the attackers were dressed in police uniforms, while others were wearing masks.

No group has asserted responsibility for the attack, but Pakistani experts said the most likely source was Lashkar-i-Taiba, or Army of the Pious, a militant Punjabi group. With help from the military, it was formed in the early 1990s to fight in the disputed region of Indian Kashmir, but later broadened its Islamist agenda and was banned by the government several years ago.

The group is affiliated with a large religious school based at a campus near Lahore. Officials have found evidence linking it to several other recent terrorist attacks, including a three-day siege in the Indian city of Mumbai that killed more than 170 people in November, and a suicide truck bombing that killed more than 50 people at Islamabad's luxury Marriott Hotel in September.

Pakistan has been an incubator for Islamist militant groups for the past several decades. Until recently, they were focused on external conflicts, especially the dispute over Indian Kashmir, the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980s and the presence of U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001.

In the past several years, extremist groups along the Afghan border have turned inward, spreading violence and religious fanaticism among the ethnic Pashtun populace in Pakistan's northwest. Pakistan has tried to contain the problem through a combination of military offensives and political negotiations, which are underway in several conflicted border districts.

The Obama administration, faced with a protracted war against Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan, has just launched a regional anti-terrorist strategy that conditions economic aid to Pakistan on tougher Pakistani action against insurgents based in safe havens along the border. U.S. officials have publicly charged that some elements of Pakistan's army and intelligence services still support the fighters as a counterweight to India.

Now, however, the increasing pattern of insurgent assaults against high-profile government and civilian targets in other regions of the country -- especially in Punjab, the traditional home of Pakistan's large and powerful armed forces -- suggests that militancy has spun out of the government's control.

"The nexus between the militants in Punjab and in the tribal areas has been clear for some time now," Nawaz said. "Now the question is whether the government can penetrate and dismantle these networks. The army is overstretched, so we have to start dealing with the causes of militancy -- the vast gap between rich and poor, the lack of governance -- that Pakistan has neglected for so long."

Special correspondent Aoun Sahi in Lahore contributed to this report.

#47 Posted by Hasho on March 30, 2009 8:00:32 pm



Intelligence does not work in the simple ways.


yeah..they do complicated things like running newspapers..like the asia times..

did you know asia times is a front for an intel agency..a chowkie exposed it as such..

#29 Posted by masadi on March 30, 2009 5:58:27 pm


In the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, "What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire?


Zbig was a Carter man. And how does a rational person go from this quote to "the US created the taliban"..

the fact of the matter is that your government could have rolled back the jihadi infrastructure after the soviets left...but they thought they'd hit pay dirt..they not only doubled down, the went all in..mortgaged their home to bet on the elusive strategic depth..

you can continue to rant and rave but the taliban are your own damn fault..

roses are red, violets are blue, the jihadis YOU created are now killing you..

and killing you in spades..

#18 Posted by masadi on March 30, 2009 12:11:42 pm


You recognized the 'made in America' stamp on the shalwars of the attackers also


I heard the jews were responsible for the attack on the paki police academy..i've heard from reliable sources that there were no jews in the academy on the day of the attack..

Agha Sahib,

I respect your analyses despite the fact that sometimes I do not agree with them. But you have a learned and educated approach towards such matters.

This is one of those occasions when I disagree with your basic premis that the core purpose of US is to encircle China and Russia - but the question is for what. This is not 18th century anymore where one power could physically occupy trade routes and impose terriffs etc. Had this been the case Pakistani territory would have been the safest area to establish their military bases. Pakistan's rent-a-fouj has already given several thousand acres of prime land on 99 years lease to US at the coast of Thatta. My sources tell me that several bases also exist in Baluchistan since 80's which are not disclosed to the public. Us could have established a South Korea like relationship with Pakistan and could have successfuly contained the Russia and China (whatever that means). Afghanistan on the other hand is a death trap and it will still be a death trap 50 years later - if US managed to survive that long.

I respectfully contend and no offence to you but the stated US intentions towards china or Russia are pure fabrication of rent-a-fouj and the corrupt, pro-western puppet elite who are fighting on behalf of their masters in Washington. The fact of the matter is that the US Empire that came into existence due to the Atlantic Charter signed by Churchill and FDR is now facing its most deadly challenge right now. There is an awakening in the Muslim world for the freedom and there is yearning for soveriegnity. Together with that there is a deeply rooted feeling among Muslim masses that in this rapidly shrinking global village there is a concerted effort by imeprial powers to keep them as the third class citizens of world community. Besides that, the law of nature is that what goes up must come down. In other words the days of American empire have been numbered.

The US strategy to create vested inetersts of every other country in its system has worked. But US has betrayed the trust of whole world. Slowly but surely rest of the world is reducing its dependence on US economic system so that next time when American crooks strike and squander their money they must have plan B ready. In other words the backbone of US sytem has been broken for good.

The U.S. really didn't know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian towns, they really thought they were military bases....right Tahmed?

You are so outrageously immoral that you're not worth a rat's fart...

TNITC masadi

I would like people who undrstrand the gravity of the situation to read this article that has appeared in Armed forces Journal.

Agha you should read this article.
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2009/04/3901424
By BY COL. DOUGLAS MACGREGOR (RET.)
“Sir, I am deeply concerned about Iraq. The task you have given me is becoming really impossible ... if they (Sunni and Shiite) are not prepared to urge us to stay and to co-operate in every manner I would actually clear out. ... At present we are paying eight millions a year for the privilege of living on an ungrateful volcano out of which we are in no circumstances to get anything worth having.�

Winston Churchill to British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, Sept. 1, 1922
He further writes:
"Despite the seriousness of the present economic crisis, the greatest danger to the future security of the U.S. is Washington’s inclination to impose political solutions with the use of American military power in many parts of the world where Washington’s solutions are unneeded and unsustainable."
One more money quote
"The lesson is a straightforward one: Will we continue to pursue global hegemony with the use of military power to control and shape development inside other societies? Or will we use our military power to maintain our market-oriented English-speaking republic, a republic that upholds the rule of law, respects the cultures and traditions of people different from ourselves, and trades freely with all nations, but protects its sovereignty, its commerce, its vital strategic interests and its citizens?"
Here is the last one:
Far too often, national decision-making has been shaped primarily by the military capability to act, not by a rigorous application of the purpose/method/end-state strategic framework.

Decision-making of this kind explains why Operation Iraqi Freedom never had a coherent strategic design.

Macgregor argues for general conflict avoidance as the best mindset and strategy:

As a declaratory goal of U.S. military strategy, conflict avoidance is not merely a restatement of deterrence or a new affirmation of collective security. It is a policy stance that stems from a decent regard for the interests of others, regardless of how strange and obtuse these interests may seem to Americans. It is an explicit recognition by Washington that no one in Asia, Africa, the Middle East or Latin America wants American troops to police and govern their country, even if American troops are more capable, more honest and provide better security than their own soldiers and police."

On Iran and Afghanistan he writes:

"Treating conflict avoidance as a declared strategic goal should give pause to those in Washington who think counterinsurgency is something American military forces should seek to conduct. For outside powers intervening in other peoples’ countries as we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan, so-called counterinsurgency has not been the success story presented to the American people. Making cash payments to buy cooperation from insurgent groups to conceal a failed policy of occupation is a temporary expedient to reduce U.S. casualties, not a permanent solution for stability."

The result of the Bush mindset:

"The result is an unnecessarily large defense budget of more than $700 billion and military thinking that seeks to reinvigorate the economically disastrous policies of territorial imperialism. Unchecked, the combination of these misguided policies will increase the likelihood the U.S. follows the path of Britain’s decline in the 20th century.
...
A strategy of refusing battle that routinely answers the questions of purpose, method and end-state in the conduct of military operations is the best way for the U.S. to avoid following in the footsteps of the British Empire into ruin."

More BS. The Zia government didn't 'insist', that was how the Americans wanted it to be so that Pakistan would be the 'fall guy'and the Pakistan Army that always submits to the Americans in fact it is an American outfit did so working DIRECTLY with the Americans- there was no seperation. The ISI was just the visible face you moron, it is called 'plausible deniability'- don't you get this simple point.

What you had written was this :Tahmed: "The fact is that during the Soviet-Afghan war, ISI insisted that the US give resources only to Zia government, and the Zia government would then be "sole distributor" of weapons and funds. Zia then used this opportunity to build up the fundamentalists."

You are suggesting that the fundamentalists were built up by Zia even though the Americans didn't want it and they had no clue what was going on in that proxy "cold war" they were fighting. You must be a damn fool to believe that....

They knew exactly where the money was going and what was being 'built up'.

TNITC masadi

now i have to go. as my brother says - if you run with the turkeys, you become a turkey yourself. i dont want to become a turkey like Fasadi.. No sir!!

now i have to go. as my brother says - if you run with the turkeys, you become a turkey yourself. i dont want to become a turkey like Fasadi.. No sir!!

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HP: that is not what this twit masadi has been arguing about. He has been refusing to accept (until now when he cleverly changed his story - cleverly by moron standards, i.e.) that the Zia government insisted on being the arms/funds distributor to the afghan groups.

Tahmed you moron, I did not change my story. The CIA had people on the ground in Pakistan and the ISI was their chaprasee. The dictation was coming from Washington, the arrangement was designed by Washington, the money and the supplies and the indoctrination was coming from the Americans...You cannot absolve the "owner" of the war and blame the chaprasee...

TNITC masadi

I was wondering whether you had gone to meet Allah mian or whether the CIA had sent you on a new mission or maybe you just lost interest in Chowk. How goes?


----
Asadi,
I am posting from an undisclosed location near Washington, DC. In fact I have a bigger and better contract in my area of expertise now that dems are back in power.

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#45 masadi moron: now you cleverly change your story to say that "some funds with CIA oversight had an ISI middleman, the US was not involved. "!! when did i say that the US was not involved??? you lying hypocrite!! you ignorant math challenged moron!! go learn the sifar da pahara then talk to me!!

It is not conceivable that the US did not know what the Pak army was doing in Afghanistan when Pakistan army was setting up the Taliban as contenders in Afghanistan in the 90s.

The afghan war had barely ended and during the war the US maintained the largest CIA station outside of the US itself for more than ten years. The CIA and the other US intelligence agencies were completely involved in the afghan war until Najib was overthrown and that happened in 1992(i believe) There is no way the US had lost contacts with the intelligence sources that it cultivated in the 12 yrs of the war. I am positive that many in the ISI and the Pak army GHQ were also reporting to the US intelligence agencies and some still do.

Intelligence does not work in the simple ways.

HP sahib is that you? I was concerned about your well being. I was wondering whether you had gone to meet Allah mian or whether the CIA had sent you on a new mission or maybe you just lost interest in Chowk. How goes?

You moron you think that just because some funds with CIA oversight had an ISI middleman, the US was not involved. It is called plausible deniability, since the US didn't want to directly face the soviets you fool. It is BS propaganda that you are using in order to fool people that the US was not involved. You think we are damn fools?

They were neck deep in involvement in the war, they fed the mujahideen they armed them, indoctrinated them and made them in perfect images of the orientalist caricature of Islam.

TNITC masadi

"the article amin wrote" - that is what i meant below.

HP: why did you change your nick to Hasho???

as for this piece from the article you wrote - the fact is that the taliban scare no one other than those paksitanis who show up on tv to repeat the same tired old canard that the pakhtoon cant be defeated.

masadi: now go get an education - like learning the sifar da pahara!! which will tell you that 5 times 0 = 0. 6 times 0 = 0.



i am going to go read something more interesting than your repetition of your rubbish. tomorrow i am going to come back and see if you learnt the sifar da pahara, you moron!!

“When Obama says that 700 US soldiers were killed in Afghanistan he proves two facts. One that the US soldier is hardly fighting a war because 700 soldiers killed in 8 years means a 100 soldiers per year, which proves that the enemy that the USA is facing in Afghanistan is hardly that dangerous an enemy as claimed by the USA.�

An excellent point raised by the author. How is it possible that you fight a war in a country of Afghanistan’s size and only lose 700 people? Iraq is smaller than Afghanistan in both population and geographical area and the US causality numbers are in excess of 4000.

In Iraq a sunni minority of less than 20% fought the US army in selected areas and in Afghanistan Pushtoon are over 50% but still the US and Afghan casualties are in no proportion to the Iraqi numbers.

The reason has been discussed in the article (link below) by Joshua Faust and is worth a careful reading.

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/03/27/guest-contribution-afgh anistans-garrisons/

"There are entire swaths of territory that have been ceded to the militants in Afghanistan. In some cases, entire districts are essentially “no go� areas, starved of development and even regular security resources. The abandonment of these areas - at a cost in Afghan lives - has not resulted in any punishments or reprimands of the commanders who did so. Rather, they were praised for reducing their own casualties.

It is a mindset bred into the very framework of the U.S. Army. If a soldier dies in combat, his or her commanding officer is investigated. A “15-6,� as they are called, is convened by Court Martial authority, and should any fault be found on the commander’s part, his or her career could be destroyed.

“No one has ever gotten a 15-6 for losing a village in Afghanistan,� a Lieutenant Colonel who worked at the U.S. Army’s headquarters in Afghanistan recently said, “but if he loses a soldier defending that village from the Taliban, he gets investigated.�

#38/37 and dont keep blabbering the same rubbish over and over again. Five times zero is still zero.

and furthermore, you twit masadi, the taliban came into existence during the afghan civil war that followed the soviet retreat. the ISI tilted the civil war in their favor, and that is how they won kabul.

i am not going to waste my time with a nincompoop like you who spends his time blabbering about the US when the rest of the country was restoring democracy; and who spends his time blabbering about the US on the day innocent pakistanis were killed by the enemies of the US, or Pakistan, and of every civilized nation on earth. What is the difference between you and the indian lowlife for whom every innocent life lost in pakistan is a source of joy???

There was no rubbish on my part it was a US run operation, not a single historian worth the name will disagree with that...not one.

#35 that is BS propaganda, the Americans knew exactly what was going on the role of the Pakistan Army was as khansamas and servers only. They had feet on the ground and they had intelligence that not even your ISI could muster. The dictates were coming from Washington not from Islamabad you ignoramus, as was the indoctrinating literature. You think the Americans could manage an empire by allowing tinpots to do their own where it involved fighting the "cold war"....you must be a damn fool....

TNITC masadi

#34 masadi: repeating rubbish three times merely makes it three times rubbish. or are you challenged in the tin da pahara as well???

#32 no you moron (i am giving you the benefit of the doubt since it seems you actually believe your rubbish), it is a fact that the Zia government (not just ISI!!) made it a major policy not to permit the US to distribute funds directly to the mujahideen.

Tahmed your pain is evident in #31. The fact that not a single historian worth the name denies is that your masters were in bed with the bearded mullahs......and they still are....and a dirty filthy bed it is....

TNITC masadi

I mean ON Charlie Wilson

so Tahmed reads a propaganda book by Charlie Wilson and rehashes BS from there and I document everything I state and this moron states that I should get an education...go figure... Only dimwits will believe the tale that the ISI was dictating terms to the US and the US was relenting, and the fact which no a-hole can deny is the US role, on the ground in Pakistan, in training and directing the so-called mujahideen. Tahmed talks as if they didn't know what the hell was going on there, a way to save face for the barbarians he worships....You're telling me to read on it, I've read more on it than what is contained in the BS book you rehash from....

TNITC masadi

#27 masadi: No, you are the moron if you believe the rubbish that you wrote - and in that case...get an education, moron. read the history of the soviet-afghan war. then come talk to me.

and if you dont believe the rubbish, then you are a lying moron - and no amount of education will help you get out of your misery.

Correction #28: "As late as 1999 a pentagon report stated that....", should be "As late as September 24, 2001, a pentagon report stated that...

This is from the US govt's commission on 9/11 (see link at bottom)


In the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, "What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?"




http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing3/witness_ bronson.htm

Then we reach the age of the Taliban where staunch US allies SA and UAE recognized them, the US invited their reps on an official visit and gave blessings to Pakistan for using the same networks used by the CIA to conquer Afghanistan~ the only victory the Pakistan Army has seen to date. As late as 1999 a pentagon report stated that there was no integration between Al-Qaeda and the Taliban or Al-Qaeda and the Afghans leaving them as the report said, "vulnerable to exploitation"

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EI20Df03.html

T ahmed thinks he is dealing with illiterates who suffer from Alzheimer's disease so they cannot remember anything. Not so moron.....

TNITC masadi

tahmed writes "The fact is that during the Soviet-Afghan war, ISI insisted that the US give resources only to Zia government, and the Zia government would then be "sole distributor" of weapons and funds. Zia then used this opportunity to build up the fundamentalists."

This moron is trying to rewrite history. The first problem with his BS is that 1) the US doesn't take dictation from the ISI, it is the other way round. Beggars are not choosers
Second, the CIA had people on the ground training those so-called mujahideen, and providing cultural support through indoctrination via books published in Nebraska. Third, without US stingers those morons would have amounted to nothing. When Zia wanted to extend his nuisance value after the Soviets started withdrawing, the US got rid of his swine a$$.

TNITC masadi

bsm #25 one of the biggest misconceptions (eagerly spread by the "proxy war" generals) is that the US created the Taliban. The fact is that during the Soviet-Afghan war, ISI insisted that the US give resources only to Zia government, and the Zia government would then be "sole distributor" of weapons and funds. Zia then used this opportunity to build up the fundamentalists.

So - the father of the child is not the US, but the Zia regime and after he was dispatched to hell, by the rogue generals he left behind.

Re: # 21

Qibla,

The parent - who concieved this rogue child is supposed to be held responsible, even if that rogue child is aged 32 now, right?
-E

Re: # 14

Pavo: "Iran may collapse sooner than later . the mullahs are not as strong as they were 10 years ago. but it is debatable how soon or how late."

I don't think it's wise to underestimate the Iranian Mullahs. So far, they have been playing their cards well. Iran has been the biggest beneficiary of the US missteps in Iraq. That's why the US has not been able to touch them in spite of the powerful Israel lobby in Washington. And that is also the reason why Obama wants to talk with the Mullahs.
The "liberal" candidate Khatami, the last hope of newcons and Israelis, has also withdrawn from the presidential bid against Ahmadinejad.

So, contrary to your opinion, I think the Iranian Mullahs are stronger than they have been since the Iranian revolution.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

pavocavalry #22 and you remain a pakistani fauji on pension who sees the death of 27 pakistanis as nothing more than another opportunity to blab about the US!!

less masadi and riaz haq fuzair anf ahmad madani chowk remains the citadel of very low calibre pygmies.
Agha Amin

Masadi: So another 27 Pakistanis are murdered at the hands of the taliban, and all you see in this is just another opportunity to join the clown pavocavalry to blame the "US"!!

Pavo writes "Obama may be an idealist , he is perceived as an outsider."

Amin sahib, Obama is no idealist and he is no outsider, he was thoroughly vetted by the elite before being handed the office for ulterior motive. The vetting process is however never complete and so there is a chance of him being a 'wild card', he is therefore always flanked by the rear guard, the white guys that dominate his establishment. Next time carefully note his surroundings whenever he speaks in public- something that was totally missing from the Bush public speeches....

TNITC masadi

pavocavalry#13 You think you know the US policy-making process?? General Bulleye thinks he is a some kind of an geo-strategic expert. The ignorant, opinionated posts of fauji pensioners like you and bulleya are proof that the Pakistan Army desperately needs raise its standards of recruitment.

Tahir writes "The destructive pattern remains most identifiable! .."

You recognized the 'made in America' stamp on the shalwars of the attackers also....you have a keen eye my friend....

TNITC masadi

Mr Amin, the economic elite that roam the corridors of US power, float in and out of the political directorate composed of the various agencies you mention are the ones that call the shots and currently China is a gold mine for them, it is not their target...

TNITC masadi

May the American police-stations suffer the same fate as that of Iraqi and now Pakistani ones.

The destructive pattern remains most identifiable!

Obama is welcome to target my neighbour's dog's reproductive organ as the 'high-profile target'; the animal barks too much at night.

Damn the Am-policies.....

this is a matter of opinion .i have held since october 2001 that the real targets are Russia and China.

Iran may collapse sooner than later . the mullahs are not as strong as they were 10 years ago. but it is debatable how soon or how late.

anyhow sir all these are speculations.


Agha Amin

the US policy is made at various levels,the PENTAGON,CIA,STATE DEPARTMENT,while Obama may be an idealist , he is perceived as an outsider.

the State Department,Pentagon and CIA see Pakistani army and ISI as a useful subsidiary vassal but prefer a denuclearised pakistan with a good punjabi potohari khattak yusufzai mercenary army which has traditionally been a good and relatively cheap mercenary force.

at the covert level the USA visualises afghanistan pakistan india as future bases for supporting a war against china and russia in central asia tibet and singkiang

iran sees itself as successor of persian empire and regards other races as inferior racially and religiously.

russia is strongly placed in afghanistan in the whole expanse.khalqi pashtuns and the parchamis who have penetrated and intermixed as northern alliance and hekmatyar or taliban pashtuns.the common ethos is hatred of USA.even the real founder of taliban Mullah Borjan allegedly assasinated by pakistani intelligence was a leftist khalqi officer initially.

many memories unite these elements:--

1-desire to avenge frrom USA the 1978-92 dirty war.

2-hatred against a particular pakistani punjabi establishment for destroying afghanistan in 1978-92 for US dollars.

its a complicated affair.
Agha Amin

Amin sahib,

The US is not conducting wars for instrumental reasons in the post WW2 world, its reasons are structural and as far as that goes, Pakistan is just the bridge that leads to Iran. China and Russia are not involved in its immediate plans.

TNITC masadi

mr masadai

pakistan is a pygmy ,the USA is after China and Russia.Pakistan is merely a steping stone and this is what I have stated in last paragraph.

the USA could not destroy Russia in the Afghan war.the real struggle is between the atlantic rim nations led by USA and the contender central mainland Russia and China.

Mr Fuzair:--

1-Real Afghan training base was soviet which is now being replaced by USA/NATO .However at the intelligence level Russia is far stronger in army police and intelligence in afghanistan.

2-The RAW is as involved as ISI if one has to make a comparison.The Taliban were a Pakistani creation but now they have various variations and not all are in Pakistani control.

3-If the Pakistani state is exterminating a people at some stage they will turn to anyone,even the devil.If you study books of Bengalis in 1971 most say that they hated the Indians but had no choice but to get Indian support.

4-Afghan special forces are trained by US Army and Dyncorps an ex CIA security company.

5-The non Pashtuns look towards Russia , India and Iran because Pakistani state is perceived as pro Pashtun and Pro Talib in non Pashtuns of Afghanistan.

6-Fence is not politically acceptable as it would regularise Durand Line.Further fence would not be economically acceptable as it would disturb smuggling.
Agha Amin

BS sahib, there were large groups of people who protested the war in America, the American people are victims of their government as well, the bottom 40% own zero wealth the top 1% more than 50% of it if we take owner occupied homes out of the equation- power is skewed, money determines political office and ownership as well as information is thoroughly controlled through an elite dominated media (5 corporations to be exact). Under these circumstances I think very highly of those that break out of this control and protest their country's aggression while I don't blame those trapped as cogs in this machinery of oppression. Pakistanis on the other hand know what is going on, circumstance is their best educator and they cause real change as they recently did....Like I said Americans can learn about democracy from Pakistanis


TNITC masadi

I think Obama recognizes that US must abandon, or at least put on hold, any imperial ambitions for a while. The reality of sustainability of such an empire on borrowed money is staring him in the face. The US national debt is $11 trillion and exploding. The president of China, the biggest lender to US, is getting about America's ability to repay. So China is going big in Asia and Africa to develop new export markets to replace the declining exports to US. I think the current financial crisis is causing a lot of rethinking in Washington, Beijing and elsewhere.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Masadi,

It's Americans, because they pay taxes for war crimes their elite commits worldwide. It's Americans who chanted "go for it, go for it!" when Bush waged war in Iraq n Afghanistan. Hell yeah, everything has a price! The only difference is that we are paying a price for being an Imperilist's stooge.

Well, I am begining to believe that if we Pakistanis are held responsible for everything our rulers do, why not hold Americans responsible for electing Bush for second term, even after watching Moore's documentaries and knowing the commission report.
-E

It is not the Americans, their elite are the ones rotten-to-the-core, people just fill position within a heavily propagandized structure...

agreed with Masadi on this.
The US War Economy would crumble like a pack of cards if there were no Iraq n Afghanistan.

Americans are sick, a curse to humanity, rotten-to-the-core demons!
-E

The author writes "The simple truth is that war in Afghanistan is about the presence of US and other Christian troops and not about Al Qaeda. Hardly 5% of USA's opponents in Afghanistan are Al Qaeda."

Amin sahib, the US is not interested in Afghanistan, it is now interested in Pakistan to continue its 'war with no end'. Can you not see how Afghanistan is being linked to Pakistan now and was not immediately post 9/11 when the interest was Iraq. Also you mention 14000 Soviet casualties but fail to mention the 1.5 million Afghans that were butchered because the US was willing to fight to the last Afghan without expending one US life? Also, you fail to note how skilfully the U.S. constructed the 3000 odd "Arab Afghans" as if they were the owners of the victory over the Soviets, all leading to this new World War they were thinking of to keep their 'permanent war economy' going, when the Cold War fizzled out.

TNITC masadi

Interesting article, Major Saab. While I disagree on some key points, you are the man on the spot (IIRC, you are based in Kabul?) so I will defer to your opinion. I do have two questions.

1 I've heard that Pakistan (Musharraf) had proposed fencing large sections of the border (a la India in Kashmir) but the Afghans vehemently refused. Presumably this was because it would mean a recognition of the Durand Line? Any comments on this?

2 Just how significant is the Indian, especially military, presence in Afghanistan? I know their BRO built Zagrang-Dilaram highway to connect Afghanistan to the Iranian road network, and the Indians are building Chabahar Port, but is there a significant training presence? Are ANA officers being sent to the Indian Army's Counter-Insurgency School as I've seen some reports? Are there any IA trainers in Afghanistan? Also, any truth to the reports that RAW is arming and training the Pakistani Taliban?

Sorry, have given you quite a list.

1965 , it was poor planning and execution at brigade divisional and army level.the terrain issue came into operation only after initial advantage of superiority at the decisive point was reduced.Pattons were top class tanks.Just see the tank unit lost was because they did not calculate the fuel and their fuel was finished.
Agha Amin

Re: # 1 90dollars=7200 rs/ per person is not pocket money if directly given people will likebut will looted as usual

This is prelude to declare victory and leave Pakistan exposed to wrath of Locals.The postscript is already written. As Earlier system of King is destroyed this will lead to partition of Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara, ministates. Talibs will take over south areas and they can expand will move south detrimental to control of I-Bad of this areas. Americans are not serious in fighting , they have complete command of sky no stinger missiles still they have no will.
There is army whic looking for commanders and some goals.
We we employed as last non nato friends, and as they wound up and leave they will fire from job of friend and leave problems.
We have extreme educated people in foreign ministry but they have no say.
I feel 1.5 billion poured ( which is about 90 dollars=7200 rs is not small amount) will create problems in long term. If I have no money I do not waste but some body give such help then I will get in bad habit and just waste. Free aid is just like injecting aids virous, it is terminal kills economy. Corroupt people always walk on short cut to calamities, they make choices.
As usual you write very good.

Post script: About 1965, tank debacle you wrote I have heard such things. You can tell if it has any significance.
I am told those were American Patton type tanks and they were far superior and better than indians have. Only problem was they were too heavy so in soft agricultural land they just sank in mud. Once they sank they became sitting ducks for Russian RPGs directed at their tracks. Also unfortunately military tractors to pull this heavy machine were not available. So advantage of 7 to 1 was not real as many tanks sank and struck up in mud.

Good day.